"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2542482]We don't always agree. But you make some valid points here that had already crossed my mind. Also I did push her a little psychologically into some role play. Which she happily complied with, but it is new for a lot of girls. I remember when I first did that with my ATF she told me she was a little uncomfortable with it. Now she can't live without it. Things could be worse. Lots of POTS and pre-POTs hitting me up.[/QUOTE]I have to admit that I had the same reaction that Jeez mentioned regarding rich family (shipping her car over?) And used to having more money angle. That didn't sound right to me. Just sayin.

[QUOTE=Mike7794;2542754]I have to admit that I had the same reaction that Jeez mentioned regarding rich family (shipping her car over?) And used to having more money angle. That didn't sound right to me. Just sayin.[/QUOTE]Well I am supposed to see her for a no sugar no sex hang out date later tonite. So maybe if we have some time to talk, things will be more clear. Neither of has but both want a bf/gf type thing. So its worth the effort for now. I love my ATF but all we do it fuck. Not complaining, but we never do anything else, ever. i been talking to my stripper x via email pretty regularly too. Hoping she gets her groove on and feels confident enough to wanna show me she can hang in the FC. No hurry there either.

Well.

For one thing you are using the HWG guide almost verbatim.

Please guys. Change it a bit.

It's possible some other lazy guy sent the same exact message??

[QUOTE=ReaperGuy;2542747]Need some guidance from the seniors on this one, just a post-mordem to see if I could have done anything differently. I don't think so, but a second (or eighth) set of eyes is always good.

So I sent out a batch of messages last night to new signups, I had a couple of no shows over the weekend I need to replace. One was to this 20 year old middle eastern girl, she only had a single public picture but a bunch of private ones and no profile info filled out. She'd only been on the site a few hours. I get a message back this morning and I fire up the usual line of questioning to see where it goes. As you can see below, she responds well to the entire thing, her answers are crafted to my questions and she's putting effort into it so it's definitely not a copy paste and the responses are pretty prompt so she's not wasting time. Not sure what went wrong at the end, maybe another monger beat me to her (screw you guys sometimes, LOL) with a higher offer or a girlfriend told her to upsell a bit:

Prelim messages I'm not going to copy as it had some identifying info in it, she gave me access to her pictures at this point as well. Very suggestive poses, bikini shots and some great shots of her waist+abs. This girl is smoking hot. This starts at Step 2 in HWG's 5 Steps guide:

MY MESSAGE 2.

So I'm pretty clear on what I'm looking for, what about you? Usually I find women are looking for 3 separate things:

#1. Financial help.

#2. Unmet physical needs.

#3. Emotional support.

The more of one you get, the less of the other two. I try to strike a good balance of the three, and I'm experienced enough at this to adjust as needed. I provide a safe environment where you can express what you might not express to others in your daily life. Whether that's just talking about a bad boss, a family member, or working out some physical needs on someone you don't have to face daily. I don't judge and I also don't pretend to be the perfect fit for everyone. We'll see soon if we are a good fit or not. .

So which of those 3 are you looking for?

HER MESSAGE 2.

LOL well even though financial support is something I'm looking for, it doesn't mean I won't take the time to actually see how your day is going and if you needed to talk. I'm an SD virgin (never had an SD or arrangement before) but even though you have money, you're still a human with feelings in my eyes. You're not a cash cow or opportunity to me. Out of that list, it's hard to choose honestly since all 3 are needed.

MY MESSAGE 3.

Some mixture of all 3 is normal, I throw that question out because if a woman answers nothing but #1 then we're not going to be a good fit.

I need a connection or chemistry, whatever you want to call it, for this to work for me. I've had initial meetups with drop dead gorgeous women that I walked away from because all they were interested in was an ATM. I give enough to show I'm not trying to get something for nothing, but not so much someone would stay with me only for money.

So are you looking for the highest bidder? If you're looking for top dollar, I guarantee that's not going to be me. There are some guys on here who will throw obscene amounts of cash at you. Maybe you'll need that much to stomach being around them, there are plenty of assholes and losers on here.

If you're willing to accept less from a chill guy who's reliable, interested in your well being and not just your body, and very drama / problem free we can work out. What do you think?

HER MESSAGE 3.

Not searching for the highest bidder at all. I understand that trust is needed as well as affection and genuine feelings on your part. I'm not going to fake my feelings just to get what I want. You seem like a serious and caring person with a huge heart. All I want is a friend that I can do everything with, but financially just enough to cover college expenses until I graduate. If you want me to pay you back that's fine.

MY MESSAGE 4.

Well that's good to hear, that's the type of girl I like to date. I typically start at $150 per meet up, it won't pay for college in one visit but it does add up. I generally expect to meet someone 2-4 times a month, depends on both our schedules.

I understand if that's not enough for you, like I said before I know that I won't meet every woman's needs. I just prefer to know someone is with me for more than just money. That won't outright pay for tuition, but I'm sure it would put a hurting on books and fees. If that sounds good to you let me know and we can talk about what dates will look like.

HER MESSAGE 4.

I'm interested. $150 is fine. I won't blow it on silly things knowing I have fees. That wouldn't be very smart.

MY MESSAGE 5.

I'm not going to copy / paste what I sent for this one, but I explain what few rules I have (no social media pictures, discretion, and STI tests + condoms if she isn't on birth control I can verify). I explain my sexual needs, nothing outrageous or extreme. I mainly look for a GFE, the same type of thing I bet most of you do. I just want a good looking fucktoy every weekend is all.

HER MESSAGE 5.

I like your terms. Very easy and agreeable. Sex is fine with me. I'm disease and drug free but if you would feel better if I got tested to show you proof I'm fine with that. I give oral and we can do Anal if you're into that. I'm on a birth control shot called Depo Provera but if you choose to use a condom regardless it's fine. <REDACTED AFTER THIS, PERSONAL INFORMATION .

The rest after that is just schedules and locations, I leave off with giving her my GV number and she says she's going to 'text me now'. I was busy at work, so I didn't check for a couple hours, and when I did I saw there was no text. I check the SA convo and there's no update. Now I've had a few problems with GV texts not coming through on occasion, particularly MMS if they send a picture, so I send her another message saying "hey if you texted me I haven't gotten it, sometimes my phone drops them so let me know if you're trying to send me something". I put the phone down, go back to work, check back 30 minutes later and I'm blocked on SA chat and she revoked access to her (very good looking) pictures.

Obviously this shit happens with girls selling their asses on the internet, just seeking some input on anything I might have done wrong here. Like I said up top, I think she either had another guy offer more cash, a girlfriend told her to get more, or I somehow managed to creep her out with the last message. Not sure how the last option works considering she was telling me I could blast inside her ass or pussy 4 hours prior, but hey these girls are kinda crazy sometimes. Her profile isn't deleted, so she didn't just give up on the whole idea either.[/QUOTE]

So I went on my no sex no sugar date with the virgin -1. This time we spent the first two hours watching a netflix and talking and some touching.

After me telling her I wanted to fuck her, she said we needed to work out the arrangement first. I told her I liked her and would keep seeing her and that the $ will add up. She agreed but said she didn't want to fuck tonite because it was late (like 1.30 am) and she was tired.

So I told her no problem, just get me off and I,ll give you the $ anyway. So we spent the next hour in the FC until she finally got me off. We talked some more on the ride home and I told her I would go to 10 dates for her to get some kind of groove on or it just won't work. And she said ok, she would try. I see she took her profile down for now.

She is pretty and has a perfect very fit 5'4" 107 frame. She is amazingly chill which I love. Just her skills are great in some ways and non existent in others. She feels bad that she can't cum but she does get turned on. So I told her on date three I am going to try some new stuff on her. And I told her she can hang out if she wants for free on days she just really doesn't want sex but doesn't want to be alone either.

Being that I work at home alone its no problem because I like her company and If I have a date later I can just send her home anytime. I told her about all my other girls and lifestyle. She's cool with it. And how can she not be. No guy is going to pay to be with an inexperienced randomly horny girl. Which she agreed if there were some no sex days I dont have to pay. I don't know if I can flip the switch to the level I need, to be able to keep seeing her. But she says she is willing to let me try. She is a sweet girl in every way. And she has the voice of an angel when she's in the FC.

Right now I really only have my ATF as a steady, due to my church girl ditching me to go celibate for jesus (unless she says it becomes too unbearable). So I can hang with this one for now while I keep looking. And I do have multiple babes I am in the process of screening.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2543056]So I went on my no sex no sugar date with the virgin -1. This time we spent the first two hours watching a netflix and talking and some touching.

After me telling her I wanted to fuck her, she said we needed to work out the arrangement first. I told her I liked her and would keep seeing her and that the $ will add up. She agreed but said she didn't want to fuck because it was late (like 1.30 am) and she was tired.

So I told her no problem, just get me off and I,ll give you the $ anyway. So we spent the next hour in the FC until she finally got me off. We talked some more on the ride home and I told her I would go to 10 dates for her to get some kind of groove on or it just won't work. And she said ok, she would try. I see she took her profile down for now.

She is pretty and has a perfect very fit 5'4" 107 frame. She is amazingly chill which I love. Just her skills are great in some ways and non existent in others. She feels bad that she can't cum but she does get turned on. So I told her on date three I am going to try some new stuff on her. And I told her she can hang out if she wants for free on days she just really doesn't want sex but doesn't want to be alone either.

Being that I work at home alone its no problem because I like her company and If I have a date later I can just send her home anytime. I told her about all my other girls and lifestyle. She's cool with it. And how can she not be. No guy is going to pay to be with an inexperienced randomly horny girl. Which she agreed if there were some no sex days I dont have to pay. I don't know if I can flip the switch to the level I need, to be able to keep seeing her. But she says she is willing to let me try. She is a sweet girl in every way. And she has the voice of an angel when she's in the FC.

Right now I really only have my ATF as a steady, due to my church girl ditching me to go celibate for jesus (unless she says it becomes too unbearable). So I can hang with this one for now while I keep looking. And I do have multiple babes I am in the process of screening.[/QUOTE]You're working it. My hat is off to you. The ones with a voice like an angel in bed or out (if it's natural) get me every time. My ex wife Asian had one of those.

[QUOTE=FTP1999;2542939]Well.

For one thing you are using the HWG guide almost verbatim.

Please guys. Change it a bit.

It's possible some other lazy guy sent the same exact message??[/QUOTE]I'm not in the same area as you guys, this is just *the* place to talk about sugar. This is the first time I've actually used the guide, I'm working on re-writing with my own words. I thought I changed out a lot as I was writing, but when I go back and read it it does look like I copy pasted it. Whoops!

Asian parents tend to try to control their kids with money. It is entirely possible that her parents are rich, but that she couldn't deal with the caveats they placed on her for subsidizing her lifestyle.

She lashes out for freedom by coming to the mainland, gets "back" at her father by finding and banging a daddy, and then tries to gain control of daddy via asking for more allowance. Thereby replacing her real father with a daddy who has rules she can live with.

Maybe not the most likely of possibilities, but there are lots of explanations. I've found that the young ones have odd definitions for what counts as sex and whether they are virgins or not. I had one lady try to convince me she was a born again virgin.

One thing is for real though. Real life is stranger than fiction. The bowl has taught me that at least.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2542716]Will be great if she is what she says she is. Most women, particularly cute asians from rich families just don't give up their virginity for a hundred bucks or so. I've seen them do it for free, but for other reasons, so her upsell for higher allowance immediately afterwords is a red flag to be sure. Hopefully I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IluvSmellyFish;2543201]Asian parents tend to try to control their kids with money. It is entirely possible that her parents are rich, but that she couldn't deal with the caveats they placed on her for subsidizing her lifestyle.

She lashes out for freedom by coming to the mainland, gets "back" at her father by finding and banging a daddy, and then tries to gain control of daddy via asking for more allowance. Thereby replacing her real father with a daddy who has rules she can live with.

Maybe not the most likely of possibilities, but there are lots of explanations. I've found that the young ones have odd definitions for what counts as sex and whether they are virgins or not. I had one lady try to convince me she was a born again virgin.

One thing is for real though. Real life is stranger than fiction. The bowl has taught me that at least.[/QUOTE]The scenario you describe is certainly possible, just unlikely, IMO. The controlling father and desire to rebel happens more often than not in wealthy Asian families, it's just that some of the other parts of the story are just as unlikely as that is likely. I've seen pretty much the gamut of cultural differences in ladies from various countries I've dated, and as you said some pretty weird stuff, it's just that it's not likely to get "that" weird between Hawaii and mainland US.

For the most part, I'd say it's inconsequential how honest she is (because expecting full honesty from any SB is a pipe dream anyway), because pussy is pussy and as long as it's fun then why not? The only reason I would be a bit cautious in this case is the fact that she so quickly put herself in a "you took my virginity" situation, which to me (having a lot of experience w / foreign women) sounds like one clawing for a position of leverage to me. What is she planning to do with that leverage? Immediate upsell doesn't seem promising.

So if I were HWG or anyone else in the situation, I would only really care about one thing -- authenticating whether she really lost the cherry or not. Then he can know whether she is holding something real over his head or not.

With western girls you cannot count on the presence of an intact hymen (pre-sex that is) to indicate virginity, but IMO the presence in this case would be a much more reliable indicator. Whatever they verbally tell us regarding the matter can be pretty much wholly discarded, as you pointed out. So if I were HWG I would use blood loss as an indicator, even if not a fully reliable one. Even then I wouldn't necessarily make a case or stop seeing her as long as everything else was copacetic, I would just think twice about paying her more than what she agreed to if I knew she had already lied about something so significant.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2543289]The scenario you describe is certainly possible, just unlikely, IMO. The controlling father and desire to rebel happens more often than not in wealthy Asian families, it's just that some of the other parts of the story are just as unlikely as that is likely. I've seen pretty much the gamut of cultural differences in ladies from various countries I've dated, and as you said some pretty weird stuff, it's just that it's not likely to get "that" weird between Hawaii and mainland US.

. So if I were HWG I would use blood loss as an indicator, even if not a fully reliable one. Even then I wouldn't necessarily make a case or stop seeing her as long as everything else was copacetic, I would just think twice about paying her more than what she agreed to if I knew she had already lied about something so significant.[/QUOTE]Hollywood is perhaps the most experienced pussy magnet on the Board and I would be comfortable with his eval and effort made to penetrate that pussy. It sounds like quite a patient process involving slow dilation, which would avoid the sudden thrust and tearing of the hymen-that most of us would probably do. "Honey, take a deep breath and try to be good. Sounds like a good plan to me. There are some cultures that demand virginity before marriage -so a little tart who has busted the family jewel will have a minor surgical procedure to sew the tattered shreds of the membrane back together -so she can go through the pain yet again.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2543328]Hollywood is perhaps the most experienced pussy magnet on the Board and I would be comfortable with his eval and effort made to penetrate that pussy. It sounds like quite a patient process involving slow dilation, which would avoid the sudden thrust and tearing of the hymen-that most of us would probably do. "Honey, take a deep breath and try to be good. Sounds like a good plan to me. There are some cultures that demand virginity before marriage -so a little tart who has busted the family jewel will have a minor surgical procedure to sew the tattered shreds of the membrane back together -so she can go through the pain yet again.[/QUOTE]Opinions and thoughts are what they are, I'm sure HWG wasn't insulted by mine (at least I hope not, not my intention). The only reason I brought it up is because the consideration of upping the budget. That is something I typically don't hear him considering, and sometimes people find their judgment is influenced by adverse health conditions. HWG's normal demographic range for POTS is different than mine, but he is now surfing in an area of the bowl where I have an enormous amount of experience over many decades. And, with regard to experience -- an ounce of real world dating experience is equivalent to a ton of sugaring experience, along the lines of understanding how women think and what makes them tick (really tick, not just the Pavlov response to money). Please don't be under the impression that I've ever shared even. 01% of my total experience with the topic being discussed here on this forum. Conclusions are easily derived, free and worth every penny on an Internet forum -- it doesn't mean I'm right on this one, as I said I hope I'm wrong.

But the one thing I've learned in all of it is that when my BS detector goes off, there is a good reason. The alarm sound itself does not necessarily provide insight as to root cause, it simply means heads up, but it never (and I do mean never) false positives. Can it work as well for someone else, remotely over the Internet? Perhaps not, it's only operating on someone else's description of what's taking place at that point.

It's really just one man's opinion and nothing more. Whenever we decide to share the details of our dates on a public forum, it only stands to reason that we are also simultaneously soliciting feedback on them. So, I gave that. That's all.

Got in touch with her through other means not SB / SD sites.

Her phone # and pictures reveal nothing so she is not a pro maybe UTR though her name showed an arrest for DUI and possession of drug paraphernalia.

Why am I even thinking about taking the plunge? She is 22 and is quite pretty in the pics. She asked (all communication via text) if I had pain medication.

If I do end up going what should I watch out for. Lives with her parents and has no transportation may be due to the DUI.

What can I say bros this is the only pretty young thing I could get!

[QUOTE=ReaperGuy;2543096]I'm not in the same area as you guys, this is just *the* place to talk about sugar. This is the first time I've actually used the guide, I'm working on re-writing with my own words. I thought I changed out a lot as I was writing, but when I go back and read it it does look like I copy pasted it. Whoops![/QUOTE]I recently had something similar happen to me. I was just at the point of scheduling the MnG when overnight she blocked me. Another pre-POT blocked me at the same time and then deleted her profile. I think they were sharing notes and discovered the similarities between the notes I was sending them. My steps are far enough away from HWG that I doubt she got a near note from another SD.

BAM.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2543358]Opinions and thoughts are what they are, I'm sure HWG wasn't insulted by mine (at least I hope not, not my intention). The only reason I brought it up is because the consideration of upping the budget. That is something I typically don't hear him considering, and sometimes people find their judgment is influenced by adverse health conditions. HWG's normal demographic range for POTS is different than mine, but he is now surfing in an area of the bowl where I have an enormous amount of experience over many decades. And, with regard to experience -- an ounce of real world dating experience is equivalent to a ton of sugaring experience, along the lines of understanding how women think and what makes them tick (really tick, not just the Pavlov response to money). Please don't be under the impression that I've ever shared even. 01% of my total experience with the topic being discussed here on this forum. Conclusions are easily derived, free and worth every penny on an Internet forum -- it doesn't mean I'm right on this one, as I said I hope I'm wrong.

But the one thing I've learned in all of it is that when my BS detector goes off, there is a good reason. The alarm sound itself does not necessarily provide insight as to root cause, it simply means heads up, but it never (and I do mean never) false positives. Can it work as well for someone else, remotely over the Internet? Perhaps not, it's only operating on someone else's description of what's taking place at that point.

It's really just one man's opinion and nothing more. Whenever we decide to share the details of our dates on a public forum, it only stands to reason that we are also simultaneously soliciting feedback on them. So, I gave that. That's all.[/QUOTE]Luckily the budget is now firmly at a $ although I know it will creep to $.2 and already has after 2 dates. But it's all good for now. When a girl likes you she will be reasonable. I will continue to update. And BTW I don't get insulted. This board is an honest sharing of opinions where we all agree to disagree from time to time. Back to work now.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2543546]Luckily the budget is now firmly at a $ although I know it will creep to $.2 and already has after 2 dates. But it's all good for now. When a girl likes you she will be reasonable. I will continue to update. And BTW I don't get insulted. This board is an honest sharing of opinions where we all agree to disagree from time to time. Back to work now.[/QUOTE]If I thought for a moment you would have been insulted I would have just bit my lip. Like you said, this is a place where opinions collide, merge, divide. Whatever.

And yes, charm can supplant monetary rewards sometimes.

I just find that once you answer the call for more, when it comes to women, the calls will only increase in frequency and intensity, ultimately leading to the opposite of our desired effect. The same principle can be applied to marriage or a LTR. When the SO makes a demand or ultimatum (such as "give up golfing and spend more time with the kids or else I'm leaving you" it is absolutely critical that we not only stand our ground, but turn the tables on them to discourage that kind of behavior by asking if they'd like to be shown the door or if they can find it themselves? The paradox in all of this is that turning the tables on them and taking control of the situation is what they really WANT us to do (despite what they say they want), and is the *only* successful tactic against such behavior. Those requests for more, or demands, or ultimatums are really tests in disguise.

Even once we know what we NEED to do, it can sometimes be a challenge to balance needs with the short-term wants dictated to us by our smaller head. My sporadic sugaring activities make it a little easier to deal with, so I mostly mention it for the sake of those looking for long-term SBs.

All of this is one reason I offer nothing up front and gift based on performance. I know my methods are not the norm here -- but I'd love to hear of any other folks refining the "gift of unspoken amount after the fact" technique. It just solves so many problems.

Well, I was correct. Mr. Wonderful turned out to be "a douche bag" as she put it. We spent 2-1/2 hours in the FC this afternoon catching up with each other. Glad she is back because the new hunt has been a bit disappointing.