General Information

[QUOTE=Irish Male2]All excellent points, Wallie, and very germaine to the subject. I think we think the same, just in a little different way. People absolutely should know their rights and if appropriate, stand up for them. Having said that, however, in some instances it can be a very expensive fight to do so. I agree that far too many people don't know their rights, don't understand their rights, or feel that because they think they have the right to do something then they must have the right to do that something.[/QUOTE]This post I am sure will keep me from forgetting any info in the future but I used to be a state trooper until I retired due to an on the job injury at the ripe old age of 25. Nothing like a medical retirement throught he state drawing 80% plus allowed to get a civiliian job.

In training for the state police (I am unsure about city/county) they went over court cases with us wins for LE and losses for LE so we could learn the right way and the wrong way. This included everything from murders to traffic stops. I know Where I was a trooper the academy was 37 weeks 9 oclock Sunday night until they let you go home on Friday. They took us out and did all kinds of things. I entered the academy before I was 21 turned 21 while I was there and they used me to buy liquor and beer from bars to strip clubs to stores. They had multiple vans carrying my 32 classmates with a wire on me. After each time (about 20 a night for 2 weeks) we went to the acadamey and went over everything I said clerk did etc with the DA from the county the academy was located. This is the type training some departments get so never think you know more about your rights then I do. There was an incident where a gentleman I pulled over on the interstate for sppeding refused to sign the citation. You must do this or the police officer has the right to take your before the judge right then and there. Needless to say a little pepper spray later he was before the judge and sentto jail until trial (he was from out of state) no bond and his vehicle was impounded. Verdict? Guilty for failure to follow a lawful order, failure to sign a citiation, resisting arrest, speeding, improper exhaust, improper display of a license plate, unsigned registration card, no proof of insurance, and several other charges I can't remember. The total was 21. There is not one vehicle on the road to day that is 100% legal according to state laws. Anytime an officer wants to cite you or pull you over there will be probable cause. Who knew a license plate holder was against the law?

Fact is most cops are trained and trianed right to beat you in court. Small towns excluded. Yes I participate in the hobby no they don't have to tell you they are a cop, yes if you ask them to touch you they can and if you ask to touch them and they say yes you can. Dosent matter if you offer to pay you are busted even if you both have been touching? Reason why? It was recorded and consentual. The best way is to just say do you need a ride? Looking for a date? Etc and don't talk about anything sexual or money until you are SEVERAL blocks away. Most if not all depts. Will not let a femal officer into a car for a period of time for that long if at all due to safety. They will find a reason to stop you to get her out if she should get in your car if you don't make an offer quick best of luck guys and stay safe. If you have any questions about this please feel free to PM me.

[QUOTE=Firedigg]This post I am sure will keep me from forgetting any info in the future but I used to be a state trooper until I retired due to an on the job injury at the ripe old age of 25. Nothing like a medical retirement throught he state drawing 80% plus allowed to get a civiliian job.

In training for the state police (I am unsure about city/county) they went over court cases with us wins for LE and losses for LE so we could learn the right way and the wrong way. This included everything from murders to traffic stops. I know Where I was a trooper the academy was 37 weeks 9 oclock Sunday night until they let you go home on Friday. They took us out and did all kinds of things. I entered the academy before I was 21 turned 21 while I was there and they used me to buy liquor and beer from bars to strip clubs to stores. They had multiple vans carrying my 32 classmates with a wire on me. After each time (about 20 a night for 2 weeks) we went to the acadamey and went over everything I said clerk did etc with the DA from the county the academy was located. This is the type training some departments get so never think you know more about your rights then I do. There was an incident where a gentleman I pulled over on the interstate for sppeding refused to sign the citation. You must do this or the police officer has the right to take your before the judge right then and there. Needless to say a little pepper spray later he was before the judge and sentto jail until trial (he was from out of state) no bond and his vehicle was impounded. Verdict? Guilty for failure to follow a lawful order, failure to sign a citiation, resisting arrest, speeding, improper exhaust, improper display of a license plate, unsigned registration card, no proof of insurance, and several other charges I can't remember. The total was 21. There is not one vehicle on the road to day that is 100% legal according to state laws. Anytime an officer wants to cite you or pull you over there will be probable cause. Who knew a license plate holder was against the law?

Fact is most cops are trained and trianed right to beat you in court. Small towns excluded. Yes I participate in the hobby no they don't have to tell you they are a cop, yes if you ask them to touch you they can and if you ask to touch them and they say yes you can. Dosent matter if you offer to pay you are busted even if you both have been touching? Reason why? It was recorded and consentual. The best way is to just say do you need a ride? Looking for a date? Etc and don't talk about anything sexual or money until you are SEVERAL blocks away. Most if not all depts. Will not let a femal officer into a car for a period of time for that long if at all due to safety. They will find a reason to stop you to get her out if she should get in your car if you don't make an offer quick best of luck guys and stay safe. If you have any questions about this please feel free to PM me.[/QUOTE]

Firedigg, I mean no disrespect to you or any other person who earns an honest living enforcing the law. I think most of us believe that there are many important laws to be enforced. However, based on the fact that you concede having worked in LE and partake in the hobby, I suspect that you and many others both active and retired, probably feel the same deep down as we do. When it comes to AMPs, which in most of the experiences here you will see are found by hobbyists to be clean, as safe as having sex with another person can be, and discreet, tax money could be much better spent on other legal issues.

I've never read or seen on television any reports (nor have I experienced them my self in the AMPs I have visited or for that matter with any of the ladies I have developed some kind of relationship with (including live in), problems with selling drugs, taking drugs, mugging, or even stealing. I'm not saying stealing does not occur but it has never happened to me in many visits to many different AMPs.

Having said that, what would have happened to the individual you pulled over on the interstate if he had said to you, "Am I under arrest? If I am I would like a lawyer before answering any questions. If not, may I go?" Would you have pepper sprayed him for saying that? If you asked him to sign the citation and he said, "I am unwilling at this point to sign the citation so if you need to take me before a judge now I am willing to cooperate and go before the judge," Would you have pepper sprayed him?

Or, in fact, did you pepper spray him because he became combative and escalated the incident to the point where you had to pepper spray him to protect yourself and quite possibly him? If this is the case, those facts are far different than what we have talked about in this particular part of the forum.

I want to be sure that no one is mistaking what you are saying. So, I'm asking again for no other reason than clarification, did you pepper spray this person because he refused to sign the citation or did you pepper spray him because he acted like an ass and became combative and potentially dangerous? This is a very important distinction.

This is not about how smart you are or how much you know about the law and rights, it's not about how smart I am or how much I know about the law and rights, nor is it about how smart anyone on this forum is or about how much they know about the law and rights. It's about not foolishly putting yourself in the position of saying or doing something that can create other problems for you than just having visited an AMP.

As for streetwalkers, if you believe you have probable cause to stop someone because you saw them talking to one, thereby giving you the probable cause, what will you do if they say to you in a calm and respectful manner, "If I am under arrest I would like to have a lawyer before I answer any questions. If I am not under arrest, can I please leave?" If that's all you get out of the person, will you pepper spray him?

If you write him a citation for, say, freqenting a known area where prostitution is solicited (assuming only strictly for the sake of discussion here that is a legitmate charge) and he says, "I am sorry but I am unwilling to sign the citation at this time," will you pepper spray him?

And if you then say to him, "If you won't sign the citation I will take you to a judge right now," and he responds, "If you have to do that I will cooperate and either follow you to the Judge's location or ride with you there," will you pepper spray him?"

If you read back through this forum you will see two things. First, you will see some angry posts or posts by individuals who are frustrated and learn after the fact that they perhaps should have handled the whole thing differently than the idiot you stopped on the interstate. Second, you will see responses to many of those posts urging the angry or frustrated posters not to get carried away, be more careful how they conduct themselves, and to not, repeat, not go toe to toe with an officer of the law.

That, my friend, is far more about what this particular forum is about than anything else.

If you or some other cop happens to stop me for not having a license plate holder (whether my state has or does not have a law requiring one), I may or may not agree to sign the citation. However, if I do not sign it, I will be and will continue to urge others here to be respectful to the officer, not express anger or be confrontational, and stick to the simple words, "I am sorry but I am unwilling to sign the citation at this time." If told I must accompany the officer to see a Judge at that very moment I will say, again with respect and without confrontation, "I am willing to accompany you now to see the judge."

I suspect that you are unable to find any law or cite any case law that gives you unfettered authority for pepper spraying me or anyone else who is being cooperative. I also suspect that if you do pepper spray someone under the circumstance I'm outlining here you and/or your department would face charges of excessive force. Whether you win or lose will probably be more a province for a court to decide than it will be for you or the department to decide.

The operative word in your post is MOST, as in, "most cops are trained..." What about those who are not? What about those who ignore their training? What about those (and everyone is human) who allow their anger and frustration to carry them away? What about those who eventually turn out to be rogue cops?

And, if all or most cops are trained not to lose, why do defense lawyers make so much money? Why do some of the cases (traffic or otherwise) make it in to the court? Why do some of them get resolved in favor of the defendant? In fact, if cops are correct most or even all of the time, then why do we even need courts? We need them because there is that pesky thing called a constitution. And the basis for this thread is - be aware of your constitutional rights. Nothing more, nothing less.

And let's face it Fire. It matters not one whit how smart you think you are, or how smart I think I am, or how smart anyone else on here thinks they are, or how smart any Chief of Police or State Police Commander thinks they are, or how smart any judge thinks he or she is. We are all human. We will all make mistakes throughout our lives. It's just the nature of the human condition.

Everyone should watch the video on this page, and be ready to assert your Rights if needed.

IMO, this is a very well done video, and outlines some of the information we have talked about here previously.

[URL]http://iwantmylawyer.org/busted.html[/URL]

Wallie

In its ongoing efforts to rid the state of Florida of anything related to sex, police have now arrested ad executives for accepting adult services ads. Read the story at [url]http://www.miamiherald.com/775/story/277880.html[/url].

QUOTE: "In Sweden [where paying for sex was criminalized only in 1999], men who flout the law face a fine of 40 days' salary, or a six-month jail term."

[Again, that's 40 *DAYS* salary! Talk about Draconian.]

"Street prostitution has reduced by up to 80 per cent, officials say."

Here's the full article from the Daily Mail ( [url]www.dailymail.co.uk[/url] ):

Buying sex should be illegal, says Women's Minister Harman
21st December 2007

Paying women for sex should be outlawed, Harriet Harman said yesterday.

Her remarks put her at odds with the Government, which is considering relaxing the law to protect vice girls.

At present, it is illegal to solicit sex, or to kerb-crawl, but not illegal to pay a woman for sex.

Women's Minister Miss Harman, an avowed feminist, said a ban is needed to stem the demand for sex workers which encourages human trafficking.

She said Britain should follow Sweden, where paying for sex was criminalised in 1999.

"My own personal view is that's what we need to do as a next step," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"Just because something has always gone on, it doesn't mean you just wring your hands and say there's nothing we can do about it."

In Sweden, men who flout the law face a fine of 40 days' salary, or a six-month jail term.

Street prostitution has reduced by up to 80 per cent, officials say.

But the [British] Government's recent prostitution strategy suggested that allowing more than one woman to work from a brothel could improve their safety.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, who is responsible for the issue, said a review would begin early next year with a visit by ministers to Sweden.

[QUOTE=Rosco2]
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, who is responsible for the issue, said a review would begin early next year with a visit by ministers to Sweden.[/QUOTE]

That's it. I'm running for office. The field trips are definitely worth it. ;)

Bench

[QUOTE=Philly Daily News]

[b]Massage-parlor probe rubs judge wrong way[/b]

Associated Press

ALLENTOWN - State police engaged in "outrageous" conduct when they paid an informant to have sex with employees of a spa on four occasions as part of a prostitution investigation, a judge has ruled.
State police investigating the Shiatsu Spa in North Whitehall Township paid the informant $180 and gave him money to pay for sexual acts in the spa in 2006.

"We conclude that the decision to send the citizen into Shiatsu Spa on four occasions for a smorgasbord of sexual activity violates the principles of fundamental fairness," Lehigh County Judge Robert L. Steinberg wrote.

Steinberg dismissed prostitution charges against the spa's owner, Sun Cha Chon, 53, of Cross Kill, N.J., agreeing with Chon's allegation of "outrageous government conduct" on the part of the police.

"Does the public want their tax dollars to be used to pay some guy money to get sexual intercourse four times? It is disgusting," said Chon's attorney, Maureen Coggins.

State troopers have testified that they had been trying to determine if prostitution was going on at Shiatsu Spa and that although having sex is not the preferred method, it is not prohibited as an investigatory tool.

But Steinberg said that police could have made an arrest after the spa's employees offered sex for money.

"We expect more from the police and demand that they conduct their investigations and utilize their resources without resorting to such embarrassing investigative techniques," he wrote.

District Attorney James Martin said he will appeal the Jan. 24 ruling. *[/QUOTE]

Original article can be found at [url]http://www.philly.com/dailynews/national/20080206_Massage-parlor_probe_rubs_judge_wrong_way.html[/url]

How very refreshing to find a judge who combines fairness with justice. Not to mention takes into consideration how the police spent other people's money. The judge made a such a valid point when he said the police should have stopped as soon as sex was offered for money that the sentence should be taken from the transcript and sent to every police agency in the country.

That's why it's very unlikely the ladies ask for tip money upfront that automatically puts them in a incriminating position for solicitation of prostitution.

If the police really followed the law it would be very difficult to bust these ladies.

Give federal law enforcement their due. They don't seem to discriminate when it comes to policing the world's oldest profession. With Governor Spitzer on the chopping block, some who may be in relationships with providers may want to review what they will and won't do for the providers. Spitzer may very well be charged with a violation of the Mann Act. The Mann Act is found in US Code Title 38, Part I, Chapter 117, subsection 2421. The text is pretty simple:

"Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

If your favorite provider asks you to take her the next state over for her next gig, you may be violating a federal law. Just something for hobbyists who have become close with providers to think about.

The Mann Act is found in US Code Title 18, not Title 38. My original post had the typo in it so if you went looking for the law you didn't find it. My apologies.

[QUOTE=Irish Male2]Give federal law enforcement their due. They don't seem to discriminate when it comes to policing the world's oldest profession. With Governor Spitzer on the chopping block, some who may be in relationships with providers may want to review what they will and won't do for the providers. Spitzer may very well be charged with a violation of the Mann Act. The Mann Act is found in US Code Title 38, Part I, Chapter 117, subsection 2421. The text is pretty simple:

"Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

If your favorite provider asks you to take her the next state over for her next gig, you may be violating a federal law. Just something for hobbyists who have become close with providers to think about.[/QUOTE]

I can tell you about a undercover cop that was getting orally serviced and he went to the wrong place they were suppose to conduct the sting. So he had to unfortunately get completely orally serviced without busting or blowing his cover as a LE.
It was on the local news a few years back. I was like heck I bet they do that more times than they tell the public.

Happy Hunting..


[QUOTE=Irish Male2]How very refreshing to find a judge who combines fairness with justice. Not to mention takes into consideration how the police spent other people's money. The judge made a such a valid point when he said the police should have stopped as soon as sex was offered for money that the sentence should be taken from the transcript and sent to every police agency in the country.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Wallie]Everyone should watch the video on this page, and be ready to assert your Rights if needed.

IMO, this is a very well done video, and outlines some of the information we have talked about here previously.

[URL]http://iwantmylawyer.org/busted.html[/URL]

Wallie[/QUOTE]

I had a chance to try some of this out, and it did not work very well. It is better to cooperate fully if you have no illegal evidence, but don't admit anything.

Not long ago, an undercover narcotics officer stopped my car. He asked if I had any illegal drugs in my car, I said no (this was true). He asked, "Then you don't mind if I search your car ?" Well, I had embarrassing (but not illegal) stuff in the car, like condoms, plus I didn't want to be bothered, so I thought I'd exercise my Constitutional right against unreasonable search, and I answered "I don't consent to any searches." According to a video I saw, this should make the cop give up, but I now think that was naive. This cop had a hunch, so he called a K-9 unit and about 5 other cop cars. It was a circus ! The dog jumped at my car, which apparently gave the cops "probable cause" to gain entry to my car. But the dog was wrong, as I've indicated. The police ended up reading me the Riot Act and then let me go. This is what I was hoping to avoid, but it happened anyway, just delayed and with more cops.

During the ordeal I was calm and only talked to answer questions. The police will ask why you are there (it was an area with a lot of crime), where you came from, where you are going. You need a story, like visiting a friend in the area. They won't believe anything you say anyway, but they are looking to confuse you with inconsistencies and maybe trick you into some admission, and probably they just want to know you are sober/sane. I knew some street names and said my "friend" was from there. They wanted to know the name and address of my friend, which I politely refused to give (of course, there was no friend). Overall I was cooperative and polite, and I think this is VERY important: your goal is just to get out of there and not piss them off or give them an incentive to arrest you.

I think next time I'll just let them search the car. That's what I normally have done. Constitutional rights are easy to trample on the mean streets. In my case, they just needed a dog trained to jump at my car. If their hunch is right, they score a bust. I was actually a little worried the cops might plant some drugs, but fortunately they were not corrupt.

IMO, you still did the right thing. Sure, it may have been inconvenient, but still, you have the right to do what you did.

LOL, I never said it would be painless !!

All joking aside, it is up to each of to decide if defending our Rights are worth the effort it takes to do it, and I would never tell anyone else that they should do what you did; although I applaud the balls [and it does take some to do it when you are there and it is happening] to do what you did.

I know a person who is involved in Research into/Defense of our Rights, who will allow himself to be arrested if necessary, go to jail, and then fight the charges/sue the city to make the point needed, and make abuse of a given Right end. Obviously, this is a hard-core commitment for him, and he is able to properly present his case/defense in court.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to do anything, but even what you did is a piece of the effort that helps to keep the police/government in the box they are supposed to be in.

Wallie

[QUOTE=Snake27]I had a chance to try some of this out, and it did not work very well. It is better to cooperate fully if you have no illegal evidence, but don't admit anything.

Not long ago, an undercover narcotics officer stopped my car. He asked if I had any illegal drugs in my car, I said no (this was true). He asked, "Then you don't mind if I search your car ?" Well, I had embarrassing (but not illegal) stuff in the car, like condoms, plus I didn't want to be bothered, so I thought I'd exercise my Constitutional right against unreasonable search, and I answered "I don't consent to any searches." According to a video I saw, this should make the cop give up, but I now think that was naive. This cop had a hunch, so he called a K-9 unit and about 5 other cop cars. It was a circus ! The dog jumped at my car, which apparently gave the cops "probable cause" to gain entry to my car. But the dog was wrong, as I've indicated. The police ended up reading me the Riot Act and then let me go. This is what I was hoping to avoid, but it happened anyway, just delayed and with more cops.

During the ordeal I was calm and only talked to answer questions. The police will ask why you are there (it was an area with a lot of crime), where you came from, where you are going. You need a story, like visiting a friend in the area. They won't believe anything you say anyway, but they are looking to confuse you with inconsistencies and maybe trick you into some admission, and probably they just want to know you are sober/sane. I knew some street names and said my "friend" was from there. They wanted to know the name and address of my friend, which I politely refused to give (of course, there was no friend). Overall I was cooperative and polite, and I think this is VERY important: your goal is just to get out of there and not piss them off or give them an incentive to arrest you.

I think next time I'll just let them search the car. That's what I normally have done. Constitutional rights are easy to trample on the mean streets. In my case, they just needed a dog trained to jump at my car. If their hunch is right, they score a bust. I was actually a little worried the cops might plant some drugs, but fortunately they were not corrupt.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Wallie, but for different reasons. If you're innocent, you want the search conducted with many witnessing officers and civilians, and preferably on videotape. You don't want the cop (or worse, cop and his partner) that stopped you to "find" something in your car that he brought to the scene himself. Of course, if you're "riding dirty" you're screwed either way -- in which case, make them work for it. This is a pain, but as you saw they will construct a way to search your car if they really want to. Making things as complicated as possible gives them more opportunities to make mistakes, which would seem to increase your chance of invalidating the search in court (IANAL but I wonder if that police dog was really trained for drug sniffing -- search might not have ultimately held up in court?!)

[QUOTE=Snake27]I had a chance to try some of this out, and it did not work very well. It is better to cooperate fully if you have no illegal evidence, but don't admit anything.

Not long ago, an undercover narcotics officer stopped my car. ...[/QUOTE]