"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=GuyWoodson;2395474]OK -- so Jeeze and I were typing our replies at the same time -- we are on the same page!![/QUOTE]Yeah, you made some good points, too. His friend seems to be searching for a hail-mary play that will bail him out quicker. Would be great if it does work, but the risk is off the charts and there's a high probability of it going sideways. In actual hail-mary, what's the worst that can happen? The other team scores. In this hail-mary, the worst that can happen is a massive payout, years of torturous alimony, not to mention the loss of someone that he apparently wants to hold onto (despite boredom) etc.

Too much risk and too much opportunity to fail. "Quick and slick" plans tend to pop into our minds under stress and under feeling of desperation. We want to get rid of the problem fast. This is why I urge patience. Mitigate the internal stress first, once that's under control THEN evaluate possible options. The options picked will be much smarter when selected with a cool head.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2395520]Yeah, you made some good points, too. His friend seems to be searching for a hail-mary play that will bail him out quicker. Would be great if it does work, but the risk is off the charts and there's a high probability of it going sideways. In actual hail-mary, what's the worst that can happen? The other team scores. In this hail-mary, the worst that can happen is a massive payout, years of torturous alimony, not to mention the loss of someone that he apparently wants to hold onto (despite boredom) etc.

Too much risk and too much opportunity to fail. "Quick and slick" plans tend to pop into our minds under stress and under feeling of desperation. We want to get rid of the problem fast. This is why I urge patience. Mitigate the internal stress first, once that's under control THEN evaluate possible options. The options picked will be much smarter when selected with a cool head.[/QUOTE]There has been some really good advise here. Especially about finding something on her etc. But I know this girl and have been around her with my current SB double dating etc. Plus the details my friend gives me. She is a submissive type girl, but not for fun reasons, it's how she is wired. She also has very few friends, as she has those hangup issues we so often see with younger women. She is not crazy, as in off the chart, but she struggles with stuff and can become quite unstable and stew and dwell on things forever. This is the type that will not just disappear and go away to the next boyfriend. She is convinced my friend is her soul mate and will literally stop at nothing to have him. He has already tried to explain calmly the age thing, the sexual compatibility (this girl can have sex all day, every day and not tire, he's in his late 40's) she has seen and done it all sexually and for whatever reason, she has latched her claws into my friend, who is not a bad guy, not bad looking, fairly fit and fun, but there is no way he will keep up a life with this girl.

As for the leverage thing, this girl is in school and is a fulltime medical student. As you know, anyone working in the medical field has to maintain high standards with regard to criminal records etc. In their initial contact, when they set the arrangement up, there were dollar amounts indicated, for basically specific acts. I. E almost, "we meet and have sex and I give you X amount of money" he has those emails, and if she goes ugly, he is thinking to calmly tell her, he will turn over those emails to LE. Also, she has mentioned smoking weed before a few times. My friend does not, but he was thinking to get her to smoke and than hangover her head, he will report her to her program and they will test her and out the door goes all that hard work, years of school etc. At first I thought this tactic was aggressive and mean, but my buddy has paid her all along, they met as a SB arrangement and my buddy has built his assets over a lifetime, so I think it's a fair trade off.

Any thoughts on this?

[QUOTE=PghGuy2005;2394807]All of you who are able to snare these lovely lasses, do you treat any of them like girl friends even occasionally I. E. Take them out for dinner, dancing etc which would mean that you do not have a SO to worry about.

That is one thing that I cannot offer due to the need for complete discretion. Oh well! Of course I would really appreciate any advice on making up for this disadvantage other than dangling more $$$ in front of them![/QUOTE]I am currently in a FC only mode right now and it is hard to nail these SBs down for just that (unless they are UTRs). Pgh, if you can't take them out a little bit and pretend that they are "real Princesses " which they think they are and are not hookers you are going to have an uphill battle. All the successful ass men are able to meet their girls out and about, pick them up, and deliver them to the FC. Just accept that you are going to have to work harder, and will have a lower success rate. I have been in both scenarios and I like the dating one better.

More money ups your success rate. You just have to find that sweet spot that works in your hood .

Just my two cents, but my recommendation would be to deal with the underlying problem that he is sure of. If the SB knows where you live, then it will be a problem for the rest of his life that he will have no control over. Even if he is able to convince the SB to no longer be interested, he puts himself at risk for future blackmail.

This of course assumes he has the financial capability to pick up and move. It will also require him to convince the wife that moving is a good idea. If he is older, maybe float the idea of downsizing to a condo, moving to a resort or over 55 community, etc. In my experience, women love buying anything new and nesting, so it shouldn't be a super hard sell.

Once out of the house, the problem is solved. To keep the SB at bay until he is able to close on the new place and move out, he can placate her with all sorts of promises. Then once he is fully moved out, all his options are back on the table. He can keep her as a SB, or frankly IMHO, he will need to go deep and dark. Too much emotion on the table and continuing to play games will create a stalked situation.

If time is of the essence, float the idea of a major whole home and kitchen renovation and get a contractor in the house for massive demo. Convince the wife that it makes sense to temporarily move to an apartment while the home renovation is taking place. Then while in the apartment, work on convincing her that it makes sense to move to a condo. Then sell the newly renovated property for a profit. All major home renovations with any contractor take twice as long as initially estimated. Add work to the project if he needs more time. Most wives love the idea of having a home renovation performed, especially if they get to move to a new place during the interim. Plus if the kids have grown up and are off at college, downsizing is another way to sell the idea.

IMHO, as long as the SB knows his address, and as long as this guy wants to stay married, he is always going to be at risk of having his SB / SD relationship exposed. Assume he is able to convince the SB not to show up at his house because he tricked her into smoking weed. After a few weeks the drugs will be gone from her system and he will have a pissed of woman who may have mental issues that might want revenge. He will threaten to report her to the program and she will wait to clean out her system, and then call his bluff. If he threatens to go to her program with the emails, she might escalate and threaten to go to the police and have him arrested.

Going to his wife also makes him lose total control over the situation. This puts the SO in the drivers seat. If he wants to save the relationship and is willing to forego the lifestyle from this point forward, it might make sense for him, but no SO will ever let him forget about the "mistake" he made. This of course assumes that he wants to save the relationship. If he doesn't, then he shouldn't care about whether the SB shows up, but should rather be in the process of obtaining counsel from an attorney.

So long as your friend has the financial capability, and can hold off the SB from pulling the trigger on any threat for a few weeks, I personally think that changing addresses is the best tactic. Not something one can easily do, but it will be easier to deal with than coming clean to the wife, and if he tries to mitigate things with the SB, there is never any guarantee that she won't show up on his doorstep one night drunk, pmsing, during some time of emotional, financial, mental breakdown at a future point in her life.

Just my two cents. Also, if he's shrewd in how he goes about buying and selling the old house and new place, he could even make some money.

Agree with FM and JL on their dating advice so I won't beat a dead horse. The only thing I can add is that you may want to consider looking for sbs in a different "hood. ".

If you're concerned about your SO, and running into people you know, making dating not an option, it will be tougher to meet a SB rather than a utr or a pro.

Setting up m&gs and dates in a city within a few hours drive of where you live has lots of advantages. For example, first it makes it less likely that you'll deal with issues related to your SO or being exposed. Also as JL previously reported in a different discussion thread, changes in location can impact a SDs success rate dramatically. Take new York and Philadelphia for example. Both are rich with sbs, which is good because it crests competition. The problem is that a SD in NYC will be competing with investment bankers, traders, and a pool of guys who have no problem dropping a few grand on a night out drinking. Go less than two hours south to philly where the pool of sbs is still relatively high, but where a high end home in the rich suburbs are less than a traders annual bonus, and a SDs competition pool changes dramatically.

Long story short. If you're not having any luck in your own town because you can't date, and the sbs that you want are not receptive to your allowance amounts, you may want to consider changing or expanding your target location. Doing so might give you the ability to date, reduce the chance of discovery by the SO, give you a pool of sbs that you lime who are much more receptive to the expectations you are willing to set, and reduce the competiton of SDs youre competing with. It may not, but if things aren't going your way with your current tactics, no harm in increasing the geographic location of your search.

This of course assumes you are able to get away for a few hours at a time. If you don't have the ability to convincing e your SO to release the leash for anything less than a three or four hour block, then it may be difficult to be successful in the bowl. This of course also assumes that you live in a location that is close enough to other areas that might have a decent pool of sbs worth pursuing. So for example, if you live in anchorage Alaska, the city of anchrage may be the only place with any decent sbs that are worth pursuing (no knock on AK, and I am not familiT with the scene there, but just a random hypothetical and a guess regarding the SB pool there).

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2395617]I am currently in a FC only mode right now and it is hard to nail these SBs down for just that (unless they are UTRs). Pgh, if you can't take them out a little bit and pretend that they are "real Princesses " which they think they are and are not hookers you are going to have an uphill battle. All the successful ass men are able to meet their girls out and about, pick them up, and deliver them to the FC. Just accept that you are going to have to work harder, and will have a lower success rate. I have been in both scenarios and I like the dating one better.

More money ups your success rate. You just have to find that sweet spot that works in your hood .[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2395579]There has been some really good advise here. Especially about finding something on her etc. But I know this girl and have been around her with my current SB double dating etc. Plus the details my friend gives me. She is a submissive type girl, but not for fun reasons, it's how she is wired. She also has very few friends, as she has those hangup issues we so often see with younger women. She is not crazy, as in off the chart, but she struggles with stuff and can become quite unstable and stew and dwell on things forever. This is the type that will not just disappear and go away to the next boyfriend. She is convinced my friend is her soul mate and will literally stop at nothing to have him. He has already tried to explain calmly the age thing, the sexual compatibility (this girl can have sex all day, every day and not tire, he's in his late 40's) she has seen and done it all sexually and for whatever reason, she has latched her claws into my friend, who is not a bad guy, not bad looking, fairly fit and fun, but there is no way he will keep up a life with this girl.

As for the leverage thing, this girl is in school and is a fulltime medical student. As you know, anyone working in the medical field has to maintain high standards with regard to criminal records etc. In their initial contact, when they set the arrangement up, there were dollar amounts indicated, for basically specific acts. I. E almost, "we meet and have sex and I give you X amount of money" he has those emails, and if she goes ugly, he is thinking to calmly tell her, he will turn over those emails to LE. Also, she has mentioned smoking weed before a few times. My friend does not, but he was thinking to get her to smoke and than hangover her head, he will report her to her program and they will test her and out the door goes all that hard work, years of school etc. At first I thought this tactic was aggressive and mean, but my buddy has paid her all along, they met as a SB arrangement and my buddy has built his assets over a lifetime, so I think it's a fair trade off.

Any thoughts on this?[/QUOTE]The threat of turning mails of sex for money agreement over to LE is a bad plan, because its a strike against both of them. The score would still be 2-1 in her favor.

Search the law and find out if there is something she could be charged with (other than something like second degree trespassing) if she goes to his house. Maybe he could get a restraining order against her that requires her to not go within 500 feet of the property, then violation of the restraining order would be a felony? Either way, having contempt of court on her rap sheet won't look good on her resume if she plans on a medical profession.

But again this is a more risky strategy than my original plan. If she is emotionally unstable, she might be prone to act first and think later, which means a restraining order won't stop her.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2395741]The threat of turning mails of sex for money agreement over to LE is a bad plan, because its a strike against both of them. The score would still be 2-1 in her favor.

Search the law and find out if there is something she could be charged with (other than something like second degree trespassing) if she goes to his house. Maybe he could get a restraining order against her that requires her to not go within 500 feet of the property, then violation of the restraining order would be a felony? Either way, having contempt of court on her rap sheet won't look good on her resume if she plans on a medical profession.

But again this is a more risky strategy than my original plan. If she is emotionally unstable, she might be prone to act first and think later, which means a restraining order won't stop her.[/QUOTE]We just had a frank and long conversation. My friend and I and he is feeling totally fucked. Pacing and watching out the window non stop for his SB to pounce.

This girl digs and digs and does not let stuff go. It's a fucking miracle that she has not showed up thus far. I think the only thing that has stopped her is her insecure, submissive nature and not sure if she is ready for that kind of confrontation. That's just my two cents. In the meantime, my buddy is seriously considering coming clean with his wife. She forgave him once when they were like in their twenties for an affair, but she went ballistic and tore up the house, quit her job and made his life hell for about two years. She even still brings up that little affair some 20 years back when they fight. I told him not to do this, as there is still a chance, little SB won't show up. He doesn't care as he put it, imagine living in your own home, knowing at any moment your life as you know will end. It's the not knowing that is driving him nuts. I can say I don't blame him.

The other option is coming clean with the SB, but then he has trapped himself into a "life" with her. He feels she MIGHT be understanding, but any attempt to end it with her, would surly lead back to the threat of her showing up, to blow up the entire situation. It puts him in a relationship, where even though she is submissive, she still has all the options and for a man, that is no option at all. He also feels in his gut, that because they do love each other so much, especially her, she might just spare him from ruining his life based on that. He has been good to this girl and showed her many ways of life and made her life better. But time and loneliness and bitterness will without doubt set in with this girl and I believe she would still seek revenge.

All in all, it's really a fucked situation. There is no clear cut option. Everything poses a risk. That's why he wants to tell one of them and let the dust settle where it may.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2395753]We just had a frank and long conversation. My friend and I and he is feeling totally fucked. Pacing and watching out the window non stop for his SB to pounce.

This girl digs and digs and does not let stuff go. It's a fucking miracle that she has not showed up thus far. I think the only thing that has stopped her is her insecure, submissive nature and not sure if she is ready for that kind of confrontation. That's just my two cents. In the meantime, my buddy is seriously considering coming clean with his wife. She forgave him once when they were like in their twenties for an affair, but she went ballistic and tore up the house, quit her job and made his life hell for about two years. She even still brings up that little affair some 20 years back when they fight. I told him not to do this, as there is still a chance, little SB won't show up. He doesn't care as he put it, imagine living in your own home, knowing at any moment your life as you know will end. It's the not knowing that is driving him nuts. I can say I don't blame him.

The other option is coming clean with the SB, but then he has trapped himself into a "life" with her. He feels she MIGHT be understanding, but any attempt to end it with her, would surly lead back to the threat of her showing up, to blow up the entire situation. It puts him in a relationship, where even though she is submissive, she still has all the options and for a man, that is no option at all. He also feels in his gut, that because they do love each other so much, especially her, she might just spare him from ruining his life based on that. He has been good to this girl and showed her many ways of life and made her life better. But time and loneliness and bitterness will without doubt set in with this girl and I believe she would still seek revenge.

All in all, it's really a fucked situation. There is no clear cut option. Everything poses a risk. That's why he wants to tell one of them and let the dust settle where it may.[/QUOTE]Part of my recommendation here comes from first-hand experience in a very similar situation. All I can do is throw my advice out there. One thing I've learned is that when people are determined to shoot themselves in the foot, they are going to do what they are going to do. As I said, fessing to the wife is the worst of the options. It guarantees the worst possible outcome regardless of whether the SB comes forward or not. The consequences will be then the same if he fesses and the SB never comes versus the SB comes knocking. He doesn't HAVE to fess to the SB but it may help pacify the situation -- that's a judgment call that only someone who knows her well can make. It might backfire and make her feel even more in control. The restraining order idea is a very valid option, but it all goes back to the original plan.

I don't recommend moving as a way out of the situation. Property tax records are public info, and 99 out of 100 times when someone moves I can do a web search within a few days of closing on the home sale to find their new address as long as I know their real name (I'm assuming she already knows this if she saw his mail, breaking one of my first rules -- never let them know your real name).

Anyway, I don't want to badmouth your buddy but the fact he's already been down this road before and didn't learn his lesson seems to peg him as one of those people who is determined to shoot themselves in the foot. Over, and over again. Lost cause.

Even with my best of friends, if I offer advice and they choose to ignore it and shit goes sideways, I just say "good luck but you're on your own" when they come running back telling me their best laid plan blew up in their face. Most of my tactics for dealing with life's challenges are all or none. You can't take the pieces of the plan you like and mix it up with some alternatives and expect the same result.

The patience plan I mentioned does require a certain level of maturity and inner strength to execute it. He seems to have neither, so for that reason I'm predicting his fate is glued and screwed and his dollars will probably be going to the ex for the next couple of decades instead of enjoying SBs. Not sure why some folks insist on sentencing themselves to the dunce corner of the school of hard knocks, but it is what it is.

Oh well, more SBs for the rest of us. We tried.

Moving along.

Okay, a smart SB who is a Med student and OCD.

Here are the options:

1) tell the SB the story and reason with her. She is smart.

A) He wants to keep seeing her. Say he can not leave the SO right now because of financial reasons and children, but wants to continue with the SB if she can abide by the conditions. He admits to loving her.

B) He wants out. His SO found out about her (the SB), a PI was hired and followed him and she is ballistic, lawyers are involved, he has to vacate the love nest, assets are on lock down, his money is tied up and he can't afford to pay her or even date. Lawyer told him no contact with SB. . SO is threatening to expose the SB as a "*****" to her program, parents, etc. This will take the drop in at home off the table since he comes clean about the SO.


2) tell the SO: the marriage might make it.

A) wants marriage to last: Prostrate himself and suck it up for a lifetime of ass whipping.

B) doesn't care: Put it out there, express contrition, but don't put up with a lifetime of shit. Get lawyer and let her make a move or not.

3) Claim financial meltdown:

Business has crashed, has no money to see the SB anymore. State that he has to move out of his house ad into an apartment that he can sublet from a friend -or move into a spare bedroom. He has to take a break to get his life together again.

Of course if the SB is batshit crazy he is fucked.

[QUOTE=FredMoore;2395806]Okay, a smart SB who is a Med student and OCD.

Here are the options:

1) tell the SB the story and reason with her. She is smart.

A) He wants to keep seeing her. Say he can not leave the SO right now because of financial reasons and children, but wants to continue with the SB if she can abide by the conditions. He admits to loving her.

B) He wants out. His SO found out about her (the SB), a PI was hired and followed him and she is ballistic, lawyers are involved, he has to vacate the love nest, assets are on lock down, his money is tied up and he can't afford to pay her or even date. Lawyer told him no contact with SB. . SO is threatening to expose the SB as a "*****" to her program, parents, etc. This will take the drop in at home off the table since he comes clean about the SO.


2) tell the SO: the marriage might make it.

A) wants marriage to last: Prostrate himself and suck it up for a lifetime of ass whipping.

B) doesn't care: Put it out there, express contrition, but don't put up with a lifetime of shit. Get lawyer and let her make a move or not.

3) Claim financial meltdown:

Business has crashed, has no money to see the SB anymore. State that he has to move out of his house ad into an apartment that he can sublet from a friend -or move into a spare bedroom. He has to take a break to get his life together again.

Of course if the SB is batshit crazy he is fucked.[/QUOTE]Option B is a fucking awesome idea! I'd add, SO states if she so much as sees a picture of her, she will turn over the "prostitution emails" to the universe, if she leaves her hubby, she will spare her. This is good stuff. May need a tweak or two, but it's a great idea.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2395828]Option B is a fucking awesome idea! I'd add, SO states if she so much as sees a picture of her, she will turn over the "prostitution emails" to the universe, if she leaves her hubby, she will spare her. This is good stuff. May need a tweak or two, but it's a great idea.[/QUOTE]Danger zone. Females often decide to "bond" in this situation. The SB might just decide she needs to pay the SO a visit to get everything straightened out. She knows that the power of teaming up with another scorned woman against the "villan" (always the man) is a strong strategy, one that's innate to most females. If she can bond with the wife, any threat to her goes away and they can deliver the hubby a double whammy.

Don't be surprised if that's the SBs FIRST instinct, the plan that comes to the mind in the first 60 seconds.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2395840]Danger zone. Females often decide to "bond" in this situation. The SB might just decide she needs to pay the SO a visit to get everything straightened out. She knows that the power of teaming up with another scorned woman against the "villan" (always the man) is a strong strategy, one that's innate to most females. If she can bond with the wife, any threat to her goes away and they can deliver the hubby a double whammy.

Don't be surprised if that's the SBs FIRST instinct, the plan that comes to the mind in the first 60 seconds.[/QUOTE]This is why I stated a tweak or two is in order. One of my friends hot woman friends, will play the part and they will meet. She will be sympathetic, but firm over SB's submissive nature and play a "motherly" talk down, "how dare you, grow up, if he or I see you again, this will happen" role.

My friend is at a point where he's already visualizing himself alone, living in a cabin, poor, with an old dog. He's got a lot of resentment built up towards his SO and in some twisted way, he feels like she deserves it. The woman was sexless throughout most of their 20 and 30's and while she worked hard and was always there, she was a cold and distant wife big time. I'd have cheated on her hundreds of times if she was my SO.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2395851]This is why I stated a tweak or two is in order. One of my friends hot woman friends, will play the part and they will meet. She will be sympathetic, but firm over SB's submissive nature and play a "motherly" talk down, "how dare you, grow up, if he or I see you again, this will happen" role.

My friend is at a point where he's already visualizing himself alone, living in a cabin, poor, with an old dog. He's got a lot of resentment built up towards his SO and in some twisted way, he feels like she deserves it. The woman was sexless throughout most of their 20 and 30's and while she worked hard and was always there, she was a cold and distant wife big time. I'd have cheated on her hundreds of times if she was my SO.[/QUOTE]I would have left her on the legal grounds of no sex (alienation of affection or whatever). This would have enabled me to fuck all the women I wanted, guilt free and alimony free. Perhaps even letting the wife help finance my hobby as the court would be working on my behalf instead of hers.

Having someone impersonate the wife is back to complicated plans that are almost sure to fail.

Danger zone. Females often decide to "bond" in this situation. -JL "See The Other Woman" now on cable TV Exactly that!

He is going to have to take some action because both these women have an upper hand. The risk of exposure for the SB is a very real threat, both drugs and escorting. A conversation with the parents and place of employment could rock her world. I wouldn't recommend putting a shill ahead of things acting as the wife. SB might accept that challenge and insert herself into the battle.

If he feels the need to come clean with the SO, he should start with first bringing up the issues that led him to wander in the first place. Bringing up the SB relationship makes him lose complete control. Bringing up his concerns he has about the relationship with the SO, but not talking about the SB puts him in the drivers seat.

Maybe it is time to get a divorce, and if he can avoid discussing the arrangement / affair then he will likely be in a better position when it comes time to divvy up the finances. He will of course need to consult with an attorney in his state, but if they both feel the marraige is dead, maybe he can convince the SO to agree to a mutual consent divorce and amicably divide things up. If he comes clean to his SO about the affair / SB, he will need to check with a divorce attorney, but chances are that he will end up in a worse position when division of finances comes up.