Passed by the CS when I went to Jacks, the sign said it will open on the 15th which is next Tuesday. I don't see the big fuss about CS that all you guys make.
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Passed by the CS when I went to Jacks, the sign said it will open on the 15th which is next Tuesday. I don't see the big fuss about CS that all you guys make.
[QUOTE=WorldMonger;1137390]Passed by the CS when I went to Jacks, the sign said it will open on the 15th which is next Tuesday. I don't see the big fuss about CS that all you guys make.[/QUOTE]And you won't unless you RTFF! If you are really interested in learning what "the big fuss about CS" is do a search on Candy Store & CS under this thread, and start reading several years back. Read the post during 2006-2008 and you will start to figure it all out.
[QUOTE=WorldMonger;1137390]Passed by the CS when I went to Jacks, the sign said it will open on the 15th which is next Tuesday. I don't see the big fuss about CS that all you guys make.[/QUOTE]Drinks, under $5. Table dances, $5 each. VIP admission, $10. VIP dances, $10 each. Double those figures for the other clubs in town. One's hard earned money goes much further at The CS. Additionally,"value for dollar" is much, much greater. The CS is what a topless club should be.
[QUOTE=jwny72;1138080]Drinks, under $5. Table dances, $5 each. VIP admission, $10. VIP dances, $10 each. Double those figures for the other clubs in town. One's hard earned money goes much further at The CS. Additionally,"value for dollar" is much, much greater. The CS is what a topless club should be.[/QUOTE]You are right on with this! Unfortunately, what little rumors I've heard is that with all the fines and refurbishing they had to do they are going to try to open as an "upscale" club. Hopefully they ditch that idea as I don't think it will be well received.
Only time will tell.
K4me
Yes, I suspect that we are all setting our expectations too high and will be disappointed. We all remember the CS in its prime and have enjoyed the place (and talent). But, it is a new ownership and management that has taken over. They are hiring employees and dancers from scratch. Anyone who worked there before is starting as a new hire applicant just like a cold body off the street. AND, I have heard several comments from former CS dancers who are not too pleased with the sudden closing in December on 3 hours notice. This has not inspired several of them to even re-apply for a job at the new CS. They still resent the old ownership and seem to be carrying that over to the new CS. It is not clear to me how many will even try to return to CS.
So, I'll just keep an eye on the opening and see how it goes. I recall a great quote: "don't set your expectations too high and you won't be disappointed".
I hope my pessimism is wrong. I'd like to see the CS of old, but I fear I won't.
Willy
All this talk about the CS reopening is exciting and all, but let's not put the cart before the horse ok boys? I agree that it is way too soon to be making any assumptions about what to expect. I think it is safe to say that the CS is unlikely to ever return to what it once was. (although I do hope otherwise) I really miss being able to enjoy a girl for five bucks a song, but don't forget that every club in Tucson has been pushing for larger and larger dance prices without added enjoyment to compensate for it. What girl is going to take a job there if she thinks she can do better elsewhere? I sincerely hope that whatever becomes of the CS, that they turn away the nasty, unattractive and overweight girls who couldn't dream of working elsewhere. Let's not forget that the CS, much like a 87 Honda Accord, had a reputation not only for high mileage but also tends to be a little beat up and in need of a fresh coat of paint and new upholstery.
Let's talk about something that, to my surprise, has not even been mentioned yet! Last week I was at the boat and discovered that the champaigne room has been totally remodeled with private booths for fun. Coincedence? New walls have been "erected" for added privacy. The last few times that I have been to the boat I have experienced activity reminiscent of what could be found at CS about 6 months prior to what became an epic era. This club is not too far away down the street the beloved CS, and I suspect that the refugees who have migrated to this venue are becoming comfortable at their new home. In addition, I can't think of one time ever when a bouncer at the boat has come by and interrupted me for being a little too hands on, and I can only remember one or two girls who pushed my hands to the sides.
Have any of you been to Curves lately? The girls there in the daytime are getting a lot more comfortable with roaming hands and let's admit it, they are among the most attractive in the industry. Even though I know that none of them are going to unzip me, I have seen a very significant effort being made to step up their game and work hard for their money.
-RP
I've been going to CS since right after Bourbon Street turned into Temptations and then Temptations turned into the Candy Store. I think that only a few true old timers like myself will remember some of these gals. There are a few gals that I became good friends with and as far as I know hadn't worked at CS in a long time.
There was what I refer to as the Filipina trifecta in the mid to late-90's. Janeth, Beth, and another. Before the "Champagne Lounge" was enclosed it used to be elevated red-leather booths. Had some fun times in there. Then in 99. 00 I met Melody who was a friend of Rosie's. Unfortunately, we all too sadly, and publicly know, what happened to Rosie. I used to walk at Reid with Mel and Rosie on Saturday mornings. Mel took me to PF Changs for my birthday one year. We lost touch after she moved to LV.
I befriended a few of the servers like Jessica, who once moonlighted as a dancer and would sometimes give me a "server" lap dance in VIP. And Toni, a short blond firecracker, who I believe went to RR for a spell. There was also a manager named Andy, whose wife danced but she also held a job at a lab in town. Another server I remember was Heather, who went on to tend bar for a while. I liked her a lot, she was good peeps.
Another gal I really liked was Gaetana, her real name was Brandy. Used to wear a gold necklace with her name on it. I had her number and she indulged me in a private VIP dance a time or two. She had small boobs and braces and was very personable. She always took care of me.
In the 90's I met Rikki at TD's. She later moved over to CS and pal'd around with Frenchie somewhat. I liked Rikki's accent and Frenchie would correct me when I said Montreal. She was like no it's Mon-ree-al. Oh there was also, Erica. A flight attendant that moonlighted as a dancer. She was a little older, like a lot of these gals.
Anyway, I got to know these gals over the years. They weren't just dancers, they were friends and for the most part good people. Thats what I really liked about the CS that I never really found anywhere else. I was also more of a daytimer, because it was generally more mellow. And avoided the place at night for the most part. Well anyway, I just wanted to share some of that. Not really relevant to anything happening at CS these days. So when folks mention what the big deal was, or is, about CS. Well, that's just a little bit about why the place was special. Good night and good luck. Be safe my friends.
FS is available. Went there this afternoon about 1:00. Noticed about 10 dancers and 25-30 customers. Saw many familiar faces and a few new ones. I took one of the new ones for a test drive with some table dances. She was very promising so we went to the VIP where it was all available including DFK, DATY, FS. I practiced all the disciplines with her.
Not much has changed other than my drink price went up 50¢. No big deal. The fake foliage is gone from the VIP which kinda opens it up to see what everyone else is doing. The bouncer did not bother us once. Another couple came in (a long-time FS provider) who also did her thing right next to us with her customer. No cameras yet in the VIP, but I understand they are coming. Dance prices are the same for now, but I understand that's going to change.
Today's trip was a great throwback to the good old days. Let's see how long it lasts.
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1140414]FS is available. Went there this afternoon about 1:00. Noticed about 10 dancers and 25-30 customers. Saw many familiar faces and a few new ones. I took one of the new ones for a test drive with some table dances. She was very promising so we went to the VIP where it was all available including DFK, DATY, FS. I practiced all the disciplines with her.
Not much has changed other than my drink price went up 50¢. No big deal. The fake foliage is gone from the VIP which kinda opens it up to see what everyone else is doing. The bouncer did not bother us once. Another couple came in (a long-time FS provider) who also did her thing right next to us with her customer. No cameras yet in the VIP, but I understand they are coming. Dance prices are the same for now, but I understand that's going to change.
Today's trip was a great throwback to the good old days. Let's see how long it lasts. [/QUOTE]Nice to know. Thanks for the info!
[QUOTE=Da_Hunter;1140419]Nice to know. Thanks for the info![/QUOTE]I had a similar experience today, looks like biz as usual!
You forgot to mention the new name!
SPELLBOUND
I've lurking here for a while now, and I stopped by Ten's a few weeks ago. It was really good a little bit of mileage to be had since it was slow.
I also stopped by TDs East and that was a waste. The girls don't seem too interested in talking to anyone, maybe it was just when I was there.
Has anyone else has any luck at either club?
Become a VIP member! Use your hobby phone and text "Curves" to 74455, you should get a reply to show to bartender for $2. 00 of your first drink.
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1140414]FS is available. Went there this afternoon about 1:00. Noticed about 10 dancers and 25-30 customers. Saw many familiar faces and a few new ones. I took one of the new ones for a test drive with some table dances. She was very promising so we went to the VIP where it was all available including DFK, DATY, FS. I practiced all the disciplines with her.
Not much has changed other than my drink price went up 50¢. No big deal. The fake foliage is gone from the VIP which kinda opens it up to see what everyone else is doing. The bouncer did not bother us once. Another couple came in (a long-time FS provider) who also did her thing right next to us with her customer. No cameras yet in the VIP, but I understand they are coming. Dance prices are the same for now, but I understand that's going to change.
Today's trip was a great throwback to the good old days. Let's see how long it lasts. [/QUOTE]Looks like I need to get back home and get back in there! Don't want my dancers to forget who I am, eh?
K4me
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1140414]FS is available. Went there this afternoon about 1:00. Noticed about 10 dancers and 25-30 customers. Saw many familiar faces and a few new ones. I took one of the new ones for a test drive with some table dances. She was very promising so we went to the VIP where it was all available including DFK, DATY, FS. I practiced all the disciplines with her.
Not much has changed other than my drink price went up 50¢. No big deal. The fake foliage is gone from the VIP which kinda opens it up to see what everyone else is doing. The bouncer did not bother us once. Another couple came in (a long-time FS provider) who also did her thing right next to us with her customer. No cameras yet in the VIP, but I understand they are coming. Dance prices are the same for now, but I understand that's going to change.
Today's trip was a great throwback to the good old days. Let's see how long it lasts. [/QUOTE]Just to see if all was status quo I went in this evening after work. The evenings still suck. I was there 45 minutes and wasn't offered one single dance I didn't spare the tips stage side either. Looks like you still have to hit the early day crew to get your action on!
D DOg
First, CS (now Spellbound) has redone the dancers' dressing room. They have installed four new TV monitors for customers to watch.
Second, coming are 26 new cameras installed. The big news is that they will be tearing down the walls of the VIP room and installing plexiglass (or something clear like that) to about the five-foot height. So, the VIP will be visibly open to all. That kinda changes things! So, all you guys who thought the door being removed was a big deal, LOL, just wait until you see what's coming next!
Raider's management visited Spellbound last night and saw all the girls that migrated back and threatened them with a $200 fine if the dancer were to ever return to Raider's. Also, Spellbound did not rehire a whole bunch of dancers. Dozens. So if your favorite has not reappeared at Spellbound, then they are probably still at Raider's or where ever they landed during the blackout period.
One of my favorites, Lala, returned to CS today. What a sweetheart. What a body.
At TDs East now. 8:00 and just 4 customers including me. The waitresses outnumber the customers. This place is awful to try to get dances. No dancers on the floor. One on stage. The rest must be pleasuring each other in the dressing room because they are no where else to be found.
I was there last night as previously reported. What I forgot to mention was the absolute rip-off they practice. It cost $8. 75 at the door to get in and another $6. 75 for a soda. It cost me $20 just to sit down (including tips) only to sit there for a half hour and never see any dancers on the floor let alone get asked for a dance. And with no set dance prices (adversarial encounter just to get a freekin' dance) and you really, really want a dance, you're at the mercy of the one dancer who might emerge from her black hole to ask for a dance—assuming, of course, a dancer actually exists in that place. How do these women expect to get any money if they aren't asking customers for dances? It's a mystery to me how TDs East stays in business with the attitude they have.
In contrast, last night's door fee at Spellbound (formerly CS) was $4. The drink price was $4. I was asked for dances within 5 minutes of arriving. There were a dozen ladies on the floor circulating around. Dance prices are still $5 on the floor—nothing to negotiate. The difference in attitude and atmosphere between the two clubs was night and day.
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1141601]First, CS (now Spellbound) has redone the dancers' dressing room. They have installed four new TV monitors for customers to watch.
[/QUOTE]On first reading this, I thought you were saying there would be TV monitors to allow the customers to watch the dancers' dressing room. LOL
Well for starters I am with Stripper Luv. I don't know how TDs East keeps the doors open. They must have a secret billionaire benefactors who spends all his time there. I for one am done going to the place til I hear they have straightened their shit up.
Need to get back to the CS during the day time as soon as work permits it, because I have been twice in the evening now and twice waited near 45 minutes without a single offer for a dance. Granted the drinks and cover are an acceptable level.
I got to say though that IMHO Raiders in the new playground of the bankrolled and the horny. Made two trips there over the last week and was serviced in the club four times on one trip and on the second serviced once in the club with a take out desert menu.
Tds West. Man those are some skanky large women. Enough said.
D DOg
[QUOTE=Desert Dog; 1142770]Well for starters I am with Stripper Luv. I don't know how TDs East keeps the doors open. They must have a secret billionaire benefactors who spends all his time there. I for one am done going to the place til I hear they have straightened their shit up.
D DOg[/QUOTE]I heard the guy who owns that club is related to the owners of Vivid Video Produvtions, no need to make $ off that club apparently.
[QUOTE=Rich Prankster;1142785]I heard the guy who owns that club is related to the owners of Vivid Video Produvtions, no need to make $ off that club apparently.[/QUOTE]It has long been rumored that the local TD's as well as, the NM clubs are simply fronts for a far more lucrative and powdery endeavor. The more I read these posts, the more it adds credibility to those rumors.
Having known quite a few girls that have worked there over the years. Most have commented about the poor, poor business management & practices. All have wondered how the doors stayed open. Even during good times. These comments go way back to the TD's heyday of the early to mid 90's. Today, you couldn't pay me to set foot in TD's West. This place is a haven for BAD people & things that will get an innocent person killed.
[QUOTE=Rich Prankster;1142785]I heard the guy who owns that club is related to the owners of Vivid Video Produvtions, no need to make $ off that club apparently.[/QUOTE]If that is the case, maybe they should consider having a feature dancer every once in a while. Although, it is going would take a lot more to revive this club in my opinion.
I was out looking for a party last night, not for action, and it was as East. There were about 10 empty seats at 12:30. Loud, mostly rock music. Not that many girls, maybe 20 tops, but all smoking hot. I think that is how they're staying open. I've been in during the day before, and gotten the same impression as you.
[QUOTE=Desert Dog; 1142770]Well for starters I am with Stripper Luv. I don't know how TDs East keeps the doors open. They must have a secret billionaire benefactors who spends all his time there. I for one am done going to the place til I hear they have straightened their shit up.
Need to get back to the CS during the day time as soon as work permits it, because I have been twice in the evening now and twice waited near 45 minutes without a single offer for a dance. Granted the drinks and cover are an acceptable level.
I got to say though that IMHO Raiders in the new playground of the bankrolled and the horny. Made two trips there over the last week and was serviced in the club four times on one trip and on the second serviced once in the club with a take out desert menu.
Tds West. Man those are some skanky large women. Enough said.
D DOg[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1142082]I was there last night as previously reported. What I forgot to mention was the absolute rip-off they practice. It cost $8. 75 at the door to get in and another $6. 75 for a soda. It cost me $20 just to sit down (including tips) only to sit there for a half hour and never see any dancers on the floor let alone get asked for a dance. And with no set dance prices (adversarial encounter just to get a freekin' dance) and you really, really want a dance, you're at the mercy of the one dancer who might emerge from her black hole to ask for a dance—assuming, of course, a dancer actually exists in that place. How do these women expect to get any money if they aren't asking customers for dances? It's a mystery to me how TDs East stays in business with the attitude they have.
In contrast, last night's door fee at Spellbound (formerly CS) was $4. The drink price was $4. I was asked for dances within 5 minutes of arriving. There were a dozen ladies on the floor circulating around. Dance prices are still $5 on the floor—nothing to negotiate. The difference in attitude and atmosphere between the two clubs was night and day.[/QUOTE]Since I already ranted about this also, I'll only add one word to SL's accurate summary.
AMEN
Stopped in today to see how it's going there. Had a couple dances from Lexi. Then a couple in the VIP. She gives hot dances but nothing more. In fact she acted shocked when I asked about it. Back on the floor; had a couple dances from Marquis. Asked her about the menu in the VIP. She said its just more intimate then said that "this is not like it used to be" and "if I ever see another girl doing that stuff I'll break her face" Marquis gives an OK dance but not really hot. She has short black hair and v. E. Are. Why small breasts.
Went to the club today. Dancing was a petite 4'6" dancer named Starlight. Lala and I figured her height because Lala is 4'9" and Starlight was shorter. She had nice naturals and a bubble butt. She seemed to be a little out of it. I noticed a couple guys took her to the VIP and spent some time in there with her. So I imagine she was giving good dances.
Also appearing was Miss Lady that tall statuesque black dancer with an amazing body and matching skills.
[QUOTE=Stripper Luv; 1143381]Went to the club today. Dancing was a petite 4'6" dancer named Starlight. Lala and I figured her height because Lala is 4'9" and Starlight was shorter. She had nice naturals and a bubble butt. She seemed to be a little out of it. I noticed a couple guys took her to the VIP and spent some time in there with her. So I imagine she was giving good dances.
Also appearing was Miss Lady that tall statuesque black dancer with an amazing body and matching skills.[/QUOTE]Saw her come in as I was leaving the VIP. I wondered if she was one of the dancer's kid sister. She was dancing for someone as I left the club but I didn't see her go to the VIP.
I plan on doing the "Round Robin" tour of the strip clubs. I'm into gym-fit Caucasian strippers' w / e-cup or larger breast (fake or natural). Besides what is posted here on the forum I would like feedback on where I can find her? PM me w / info. Thxxx!
[QUOTE=Hot Sex;1144125]I plan on doing the "Round Robin" tour of the strip clubs. I'm into gym-fit Caucasian strippers' w / e-cup or larger breast (fake or natural). Besides what is posted here on the forum I would like feedback on where I can find her? PM me w / info. Thxxx![/QUOTE]If you find one like that, I want to know so I can be visiting her.
News for you—if there was someone like that in Tucson, we'd all be dogging her. Usually anything decent like that is working up the road in Vegas or Phoenix. Tucson is 60 miles from the Mexican border so guess what flavor you're going to find the most in our clubs? It's not Caucasian. Also, there is something here called the "Tucson tummy" which describes a lack of a certain gym-fit body part.
There are a couple of local clubs with decent eye candy, but not exactly to the description you gave. Good luck with your club tour.
[QUOTE=Hot Sex;1144125]I plan on doing the "Round Robin" tour of the strip clubs. I'm into gym-fit Caucasian strippers' w / e-cup or larger breast (fake or natural). Besides what is posted here on the forum I would like feedback on where I can find her? PM me w / info. Thxxx![/QUOTE]I don't know if you'll find anything that exactly meets your specifications. I know when I am looking to get dances from the most attractive women, I go to Curves. There are gym-fit Caucasian dancers there. However, I don't go to Curves if I am looking to get fucked or sucked from the most attractive women or even decent looking women. I can vouch that there is outcall to be had there but that typically needs to be set up beforehand and sometimes takes an investment of time and money so the dancer feels comfortable enough. Not always though. I've had offers at the first meeting. Others have posted that there is more to be had in club but I haven't experienced that in Curves.
Made the rounds last night, eager to check out this Candy Store I've been hearing so much about. Not a lot of girls on duty around 1:30. A girl named Roxy offered me a dance, and a couple dances later, invited me to join her in VIP. Roxy is Asian, slender and fit. Not much of a talker. Nothing special, really. I wasted way too much money on some average dances. We were alone in VIP most of the time. When there were others in attendance, I didn't see anyone getting too wild. One thing to be aware of is that the ATM isn't hooked up, in case you need more cash.
After about two hours with Roxy, I bailed and made my first trip to Raiders. Way more girls on duty, lots of attractive ones and a few so-so. One thing I thought was odd was that 4 dances in, each girl asked if I wanted more. I started to wonder if I had the plague or something! After dances with a few girls, I asked Marie to show me around and take me to VIP. Not much on the menu and I was shocked that VIP was just a dumpy little corner.
Again, I left disappointed, only to find my way to the much-maligned TD's East, where I used to see a few girls regularly in VIP and always had a blast. One bummer is that they raised VIP prices to 20 bucks, which sucks. As a rule, I go straight to VIP, ask who us working, check to see if any of my faves are coming in. If not, I just ask the hostess for a recommendation. Since the menu was all a bunch of strangers, I chose the stripper du jour, Mariah. Cute, sweet blonde, very soft and sensual and head and shoulders above the rest of my evening's dancers.
I suspect that my mileage varied in part because I'm a known quantity at TD's. They know what I like and I know how to get it. Even though TDs was the priciest place, I got better mileage than anywhere else. Best of all, I got the happy ending I was looking for.
Besides that, TDs has the only VIP room that's actually comfy and classy.
Stopped by this afternoon to discover some significant changes!
Entire overhead section of the bar is GONE, glasses now sit on a shelf against the back wall. It is now open and bright. New additions include 5 gigantic flat panel TVs that have been hung from the ceiling as well, and they are BRIGHT! Along with the new light came visible wrincles, cellulite, spider veins, stretch marks and bruises. Only 10 girls working. 3 of them familiar, and all action was GONE. I got one dance from a new girl who smacked me for grazing the side of her saggy tit from the side. I stopped the dance, gave her five bux and told her I was done and needed to take a piss with my completely flacid and bored cock. BOOOO!
Debating if I want to return!
[QUOTE=Rich Prankster; 1144624]Stopped by this afternoon to discover some significant changes!
Entire overhead section of the bar is GONE, glasses now sit on a shelf against the back wall. It is now open and bright. New additions include 5 gigantic flat panel TVs that have been hung from the ceiling as well, and they are BRIGHT! Along with the new light came visible wrincles, cellulite, spider veins, stretch marks and bruises. Only 10 girls working. 3 of them familiar, and all action was GONE. I got one dance from a new girl who smacked me for grazing the side of her saggy tit from the side. I stopped the dance, gave her five bux and told her I was done and needed to take a piss with my completely flacid and bored cock. BOOOO!
Debating if I want to return![/QUOTE]My own report is pending approval, but this jibes completely with my own experience. Thanks for sharing-I feel slightly less shitty. If only I hadn't blown so much cash-at least you got off easy.
Just got back from between 9 and 11, not busy at all. Handful of girls. Seems like a lot of the girls have ink. Got a few from one who had some nice size angel wings on her back, didn't catch name. Not great, not bad.
Visited Spelbound, TDs East, and Tens on this Friday afternoon. Amazingly, the biggest sporting event in Tucson all year is going on and being televised. Only TDs East was not broadcasting the golf tournament on their TVs. Seriously, Michelle! Is management even awake? No reason for a local to stay so I took my bucks elsewhere. Freekin' idiots.
Of course if there were dancers circulating then it wouldn't matter what was on TV.
Ok, what the hell is going on with dance prices in this town? Five bucks a song all I can remember for as long as my member discovered a titty club. A few places raised them by a buck or two a few years back, other places now make you negotiate with every girl before she starts. Lately these girls have started asking for 8-10 on the floor at Spellbound and Raiders! One ***** broke the news to me AFTER a six-song stretch and tried to justify it by saying "sorry, I forgot to tell you they went up to 8 on the floor, but hey, its cheaper than 10!" Are you kidding me? The economy tanks and they all try to double the cost? It makes no sense to me. It borders on antitrust law infringement if they are all going to get together and collude to set a new price floor. The clubs that support this behavior can "suck it" because they are going to lose my drinking money altogether, plus the tip share the girls give them when I'm done with them. Money talks, how do we put our feet down and pot a stop to this? I'm ready to call a town hall or something to stop this insanity!
-Richard
Went with a few freind this afternoon. 8 bucks for a dance on the floor and 10 in VIP. Well thats a give, had 3 diffrent girls and none of them were real freindly. Guess it's back to the store and see what has changed.
[QUOTE=Rich Prankster; 1144624]Stopped by this afternoon to discover some significant changes!
I got one dance from a new girl who smacked me for grazing the side of her saggy tit from the side.
Debating if I want to return! [/QUOTE]I am wondering if this is a result of a policy at Spellbound or the dancer's own policy. Is Spellbound even worth the drive anymore?
[QUOTE=Da_Hunter;1146865]I am wondering if this is a result of a policy at Spellbound or the dancer's own policy. Is Spellbound even worth the drive anymore?[/QUOTE]I was in there Friday mid-afternoon. It was so empty you could shoot a cannon and not hit anyone. FRIDAY afternoon! They had so few dancers that they had to play songs with empty stages between girls. I remember the days when it was so crowded on Friday afternoon, there was a line waiting to get into the VIP. Those days are gone.
Has ne one had ne experiences with onyx or vannessa sexy little girl with tatts on both her sides?