"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=RonPamet;5734158]I'm having a hell of a time getting a Premiere membership on SA. I tried my regular debit card. Immediately got suspended. I emailed support & they quickly lifted the suspension and told me I had to call in to run it over the phone. They said billing was open weekdays 9 am - 4 pm Pacific time. They also said I could try another card. I tried a second card, and same result: immediate suspension.

I tried calling billing several times on Monday (a Federal holiday, BTW) and got an answering machine saying their hours were 10 - 4. I tried again today and got another answering machine. Fuck me. I left a message, and also emailed support again to see what they can do. Meanwhile I have 14 messages I can't even read.

Anyone else have issues like this? I'm really not impressed.[/QUOTE]I can't believe you tied a debit card with direct access to a bank account to what's basically a "hookers that don't think they're hookers" website. Using a debit card for anything online is a terrible idea, especially this.

I'm definitely not going to give them a picture of my driver's license or passport. I tried to start a new account and I made my Tagline, "I don't buy pics or vids. " They must have some kind of software that detects buzz words because I immediately got a warning saying that I violated their solicitation rule. It picked up half of the sentence and thought I was selling pics and vids and I was shut down again. Damn.

[QUOTE=CandyMan555;5730759]I never would believe that a lot of women swing both ways. Is this true as a lot of women's Profiles say looking for Men and Women.

Wow![/QUOTE]I think what your missing is 80% to 90% of Babies on SA are either scammers (including Dudes posing as for Babies, often from overseas, that's why you often get messages at odd times), pic / video sellers, send me $ because I'm gorgeous coeds, platonic princesses, or professional M&G lunch ******. So why not cast a wider net if your never planning to give up the goods.

I'd say if the at least maybe 30 Babies that I have scored with over the last three years, I'd say maybe 3-5 were truly bi.

That pales in comparison to going to a strip joint, I'd say their at least 50%.

Still looking for the right two Babies to do a threesome with. I've done several & still think the missing ingredient was that all were with straight girls. I won't pay for another unless it's two bi girls.

[QUOTE=DoggieFan;5734941]I think what your missing is 80% to 90% of Babies on SA are either scammers (including Dudes posing as for Babies, often from overseas, that's why you often get messages at odd times), pic / video sellers, send me $ because I'm gorgeous coeds, platonic princesses, or professional M&G lunch ******. So why not cast a wider net if your never planning to give up the goods.[/QUOTE]If only SA charged the smallest amount, even a dollar a month even for women to make a posting, these imposters will either disappear altogether or greatly reduce. Challenge is that SA may appear dried up completely in certain cities or categories. So it doesn't work to SA's benefit to weed them out.

[QUOTE=BobLobLa;5658312]Because if they say the Phrase taht Pays, they are violating the TOS, and you should run far, run fast to avoid reported by them when they tell you their ask and you tell them they are crazy.

I'd think the number of SBs who would say "PPM" in a message on the App would agree to anythhing less than $4-500.[/QUOTE]I'm just passing through your city, and I would direct you to my area but if you're behaving in that way I don't want you to mess it up for us too. Most of us are looking for PPM.

Anyone remember little white spinner richmond area pm if you do I think she back in business.

[QUOTE=Eslide3;5737771]I'm just passing through your city, and I would direct you to my area but if you're behaving in that way I don't want you to mess it up for us too. Most of us are looking for PPM.[/QUOTE]The whole concept is essentially PPM, but you shouldn't use that terminology -- or tolerate those that do in their communication with you. If you do, its only a matter of time before you get banned.

Bimbo: "Whats your PPM?

$hitless Sherlock: "$300".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

Bimbo: "Whats kind of allowance do you offer?

$hitless Sherlock: "$300 ppm".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

$hitless Sherlock: "What are your allowance exceptions".

Bimbo: "$500 PPM?

$hitless Sherlock: "My max is $300".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

Try it, and see who is right.

Who has gone the Tinder route and what advice do you have? How do you spot or weed out the scammers? I've communicated with a few but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger. Any advice is welcomed.

[QUOTE=BobLobLa;5739365]The whole concept is essentially PPM, but you shouldn't use that terminology -- or tolerate those that do in their communication with you. If you do, its only a matter of time before you get banned.

Bimbo: "Whats your PPM?

$hitless Sherlock: "$300".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

Bimbo: "Whats kind of allowance do you offer?

$hitless Sherlock: "$300 ppm".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

$hitless Sherlock: "What are your allowance exceptions".

Bimbo: "$500 PPM?

$hitless Sherlock: "My max is $300".

SA -- Sherlock banned for solicitation.

Try it, and see who is right.[/QUOTE]90% of the guys on SA are PPM because you would have to be an idiot to give a girl a month's worth of money up front. I also want to see if they suck in bed before I start to pay their monthly bills. There are ways around saying an exact amount. There are ways to talk about allowance without using the letters PPM. You can use a range or talk about roses. You can say, "Would you like 4 or 6 roses when we meet up today?" Or. "I gave my last SB 5 roses everytime we got together. Does that work for you?

The girls are getting hundreds of messages a day. That's why they get overwhelmed and disappear so quickly. They're not giving their number out to hundreds of guys on the Internet just to find out what the allowance is and they're definitely not going to meet up with us unless they know what we're offering. I know that I'm not going to go out in the freezing cold to meet up with some chick unless I know what the allowance is beforehand. I'm not wasting my time and money to meet up with someone just to find out that she wants $2000 per meet.

[QUOTE=VetSD;5742783]90% of the guys on SA are PPM because you would have to be an idiot to give a girl a month's worth of money up front. I also want to see if they suck in bed before I start to pay their monthly bills. There are ways around saying an exact amount. There are ways to talk about allowance without using the letters PPM. You can use a range or talk about roses. You can say, "Would you like 4 or 6 roses when we meet up today?" Or. "I gave my last SB 5 roses everytime we got together. Does that work for you?

The girls are getting hundreds of messages a day. That's why they get overwhelmed and disappear so quickly. They're not giving their number out to hundreds of guys on the Internet just to find out what the allowance is and they're definitely not going to meet up with us unless they know what we're offering. I know that I'm not going to go out in the freezing cold to meet up with some chick unless I know what the allowance is beforehand. I'm not wasting my time and money to meet up with someone just to find out that she wants $2000 per meet.[/QUOTE]So, what do you think, the moderators are SA, who are so sensitive they ban people who say one word wrong, can't tell what 'roses' are a euphemism for? IDK that this ever worked for mongers worrying about communications w / BP girls who might actually be LE posing as girls in a sting.

If you want to have the $ convo, take it off the website, where the SA moderators can't see. Otherwise, you're going to get banned, and then come crying back here because you can't figure out how they know it is you and ban you again when you try to get a new profile. It is *truly* a PITA to get back on if your profile is banned.

IDK that your experience reflects that of many long-time experienced SDs.

There is a lot to read on pros and cons of SA. In the past there were reports that didn't make SB a better choice. Recently I came across WYP which had a different spin on fixing a date. Online review doesn't make it look very promising. Can anyone share their experience in RVA with WYP?

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;5743685]So, what do you think, the moderators are SA, who are so sensitive they ban people who say one word wrong, can't tell what 'roses' are a euphemism for? IDK that this ever worked for mongers worrying about communications w / BP girls who might actually be LE posing as girls in a sting.

If you want to have the $ convo, take it off the website, where the SA moderators can't see. Otherwise, you're going to get banned, and then come crying back here because you can't figure out how they know it is you and ban you again when you try to get a new profile. It is *truly* a PITA to get back on if your profile is banned.

IDK that your experience reflects that of many long-time experienced SDs.[/QUOTE]If you've been banned its because you were reported, or there is something on your profile page. Neither MODs nor bots read messages. Really think about what SA is and how much resources are put into it, they are not spending a penny they don't have to.

[QUOTE=Zerry;5744788]Neither MODs nor bots read messages. Really think about what SA is and how much resources are put into it, they are not spending a penny they don't have to.[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure they will flag PPM or the full words if they appear in a message. Might not get you the first time.

But again, what idiots are having discussions of financial terms in app? You either get banned for solicitation because you actually did, or some whack job took offense to your lowball offer or how you replied to her GPS ask. Again, you only get in TOS trouble when you have financial discussions in app.

If you don't have the finesse to get them onto text or some offline convo, then you probably should stick with pros.

[QUOTE=phaedrus2004;5744583]There is a lot to read on pros and cons of SA. In the past there were reports that didn't make SB a better choice. Recently I came across WYP which had a different spin on fixing a date. Online review doesn't make it look very promising. Can anyone share their experience in RVA with WYP?[/QUOTE]I found 2 groups on there. Those that have fun by getting paid for dinner out at $ a date and never do anymore. Then there's those that counter at $$ to $$$ and you get dinner and FS. More of the former are on there in my experience. Best bet are ones that have been around for years and are on both SA and WYP and know what the end game is.

I have had experience on all three but SA is the only one that works reliably for me. I also find that the most of the profiles that interest me are cross-posted on SA meaning I am not missing chances. For me the big issue is wasting money. On SA, I pay one (large) payment and can approach as many people as I choose. Granted, a substantial number are or might be scammers, bots or predators but I am pretty good now at detecting them. Also, on SA all they can do is a waste a bit of my time. On both SB and WYP, I have to buy credits and then spend them opening communication with interesting profiles. Too many of those profiles are scammers, predators or bots. I have successfully reclaimed credits on WTP multiple times but it is a PITA and huge hassle. In any case, the vast majority of credits you spend are going to be totally wasted. That drives ME nuts. There are guys who claim they have methods that allow them to narrow their focus to mostly real people but it must have taken them a lot of wasted credits to acquire that ability. For them, it is possible they actually spend less than the increasingly mounting expense on Seeking. However, that would not be true for me and would not be true for you initially. Assuming you have the coin to play in the sugar bowl, you might spend a few hundred on each site sequentially and then report your experience. Yours is a perennial question and we would benefit from hearing a recent report on your experience.

BAM.

[QUOTE=phaedrus2004;5744583]There is a lot to read on pros and cons of SA. In the past there were reports that didn't make SB a better choice. Recently I came across WYP which had a different spin on fixing a date. Online review doesn't make it look very promising. Can anyone share their experience in RVA with WYP?[/QUOTE]

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4b7fed9b-fb6a-4454-a56d-2bdcee3bc0a2[/URL] anyone had the opportunity.

[QUOTE=Cowboy1964;5745563][URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4b7fed9b-fb6a-4454-a56d-2bdcee3bc0a2[/URL] anyone had the opportunity.[/QUOTE]See post #20592 for a review from a few of months ago. Not from me but from someone else. General consensus is she is much heavier than her posted pics.

[QUOTE=BamBam;5745500]I have had experience on all three but SA is the only one that works reliably for me. I also find that the most of the profiles that interest me are cross-posted on SA meaning I am not missing chances. For me the big issue is wasting money. On SA, I pay one (large) payment and can approach as many people as I choose. Granted, a substantial number are or might be scammers, bots or predators but I am pretty good now at detecting them. Also, on SA all they can do is a waste a bit of my time. On both SB and WYP, I have to buy credits and then spend them opening communication with interesting profiles. Too many of those profiles are scammers, predators or bots. I have successfully reclaimed credits on WTP multiple times but it is a PITA and huge hassle. In any case, the vast majority of credits you spend are going to be totally wasted. That drives ME nuts. There are guys who claim they have methods that allow them to narrow their focus to mostly real people but it must have taken them a lot of wasted credits to acquire that ability. For them, it is possible they actually spend less than the increasingly mounting expense on Seeking. However, that would not be true for me and would not be true for you initially. Assuming you have the coin to play in the sugar bowl, you might spend a few hundred on each site sequentially and then report your experience. Yours is a perennial question and we would benefit from hearing a recent report on your experience.

BAM.[/QUOTE]Excellent summary Bam!

I'll add- look at SB & WYP from a business perspective. They sell credits. What are their motivations? To get you to buy credits and then more credits. Where is the disincentive to avoid bot generated profiles, scammers and fakes when those cause guys to spend credits?

WYP is for simps. Who pays a girl $200 to meet and eat & drink on their tab? VERY explicit warnings on the WYP site that "sex is not to be expected" on a date. Girls see that and think they can go out to dinner, avoid crappy dorm food or TV dinners and make extra cash in a "respectable" fashion. The fact that some simps fall for this is proved out when WYP girls try to matriculate to SA. Not to say there aren't a fair number of simps on SA willing to give away their money for any contact with women. I wasted $ on WYP and never got a single date, where as SA has been prolific from a FC perspective.

But hey, some learn through experiences, so why take the word of some Anon posters here? Drop $100 at each site, put in the time and work and then report back your experiences. "Experiential learning" will surely be the definitive answer; opinions, biases and different values al filtered out.

[QUOTE=Zerry;5744788]If you've been banned its because you were reported, or there is something on your profile page. Neither MODs nor bots read messages. [b]Really think about what SA is and how much resources are put into it, they are not spending a penny they don't have to.[/b][/QUOTE]As a long time observer of SA, there have Been SUBSTANTIAL changes in the site and the way it operates as a result of the passage of FOSTA / SESTA. Making the site appear innocuous or making it defensible from promoting prostitution charges is likely TOP priority for SA. When BP was shut down it was generating $100 MM in annual revenues. Brandon Wade is certainly spending a large chunk of change to defend his cashcow and thinking otherwise isn't a match for the realities observed and the steps any prudent business person would take.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/3a7d290b-1c19-491f-acc2-91086ebb9a28[/URL] -- verified IRL. Has a friend who brags about how great her SD is, so she signed up. NOT one to head to the hotel after M&G, but seems worth the effort.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/9a48d1da-5a5b-4596-b187-5aad1a2d498e[/URL] - looks just as good behind the phone, but definitely a slow roll to get a M&G.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/b4146905-1571-4bd4-aceb-eecf2c7920c6[/URL] - minimal engagement but was DTF early on in the convo. No discussion of Bill of Fare yet.

[QUOTE=Cowboy1964;5745563][URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4b7fed9b-fb6a-4454-a56d-2bdcee3bc0a2[/URL] anyone had the opportunity.[/QUOTE]Yes. Hosts out of an apartment near VCU that is perfectly safe. Nice girl, much thicker than her pictures when I saw her so likely will not repeat. If I recall damage was reasonable and she is fun, just not my type.

[QUOTE=Shampoo55;5746535]As a long time observer of SA, there have Been SUBSTANTIAL changes in the site and the way it operates as a result of the passage of FOSTA / SESTA. Making the site appear innocuous or making it defensible from promoting prostitution charges is likely TOP priority for SA. When BP was shut down it was generating $100 MM in annual revenues. Brandon Wade is certainly spending a large chunk of change to defend his cashcow and thinking otherwise isn't a match for the realities observed and the steps any prudent business person would take.[/QUOTE]I talk PPM and $$ in messages and my account has been up for over a year. I AM selective about who I do it with, but don't take my word for, it's not hard to see that the women who are bringing it up first are not getting banned either.

Maintaining plausible deniability is probably a big part of Wades defense strategy, which is much easier to do if SA isn't actively monitoring messages. If you've ever reported an account you'll notice it asks for screen shots. Something they wouldn't need if they were already to the messages. There is also a difference in spending on IT and spending on legal services.

You do you though. Some hooker.

[QUOTE=BobLobLa;5744935]I'm pretty sure they will flag PPM or the full words if they appear in a message. Might not get you the first time.

But again, what idiots are having discussions of financial terms in app? You either get banned for solicitation because you actually did, or some whack job took offense to your lowball offer or how you replied to her GPS ask. Again, you only get in TOS trouble when you have financial discussions in app.

If you don't have the finesse to get them onto text or some offline convo, then you probably should stick with pros.[/QUOTE]I am the idiot. I do do it and haven't had an issue with it for over a year.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/a9d30e1f-083b-44a7-91e5-942c74d0928e[/URL]

Texted variations of her profile pic then asked if I wanted to watch her use her new vibrator.

[QUOTE=Zerry;5746908]I am the idiot. I do do it and haven't had an issue with it for over a year.[/QUOTE]What is your screen name on SA?

It's just some good advice. Talking about PPM is the number 1 reason SD get ban from SA. All you need is 1 SB to flag your account for talking about PPM, and you will be ban. If you want to keep rolling the dice that's your choice.

[QUOTE=Zerry;5746908]I am the idiot. I do do it and haven't had an issue with it for over a year.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RonPamet;5734158]I'm having a hell of a time getting a Premiere membership on SA. I tried my regular debit card. Immediately got suspended. I emailed support & they quickly lifted the suspension and told me I had to call in to run it over the phone. They said billing was open weekdays 9 am - 4 pm Pacific time. They also said I could try another card. I tried a second card, and same result: immediate suspension.

I tried calling billing several times on Monday (a Federal holiday, BTW) and got an answering machine saying their hours were 10 - 4. I tried again today and got another answering machine. Fuck me. I left a message, and also emailed support again to see what they can do. Meanwhile I have 14 messages I can't even read.

Anyone else have issues like this? I'm really not impressed.[/QUOTE]I just tried to renew using a reloadable Vanilla Visa I've used multiple times before. As recently as last September. It did not work. I then tried Re entering the card info as a new card. Still no luck. I'm probably going to give up. I have a nice stable to keep me entertained for a while.

[QUOTE=Lobsid;5748058]It's just some good advice. Talking about PPM is the number 1 reason SD get ban from SA. All you need is 1 SB to flag your account for talking about PPM, and you will be ban. If you want to keep rolling the dice that's your choice.[/QUOTE]I got banned for mention PPM. I can register new account with new email address but immediately got banned if I try to upgrade. Tried with gift card, laptop instead phone. All failed. I'm suspecting they know my WIFI info somehow.

Curious if anyone has and is open to trading nude pics and vids of girls they've met though this (or otherwise). I've got over 50 girls from the DC area and Virginia schools. Inbox me if interested! Figure I might as well share these rather than sitting on them!

[QUOTE=SquirtLover;5749304]I got banned for mention PPM. I can register new account with new email address but immediately got banned if I try to upgrade. Tried with gift card, laptop instead phone. All failed. I'm suspecting they know my WIFI info somehow.[/QUOTE]Likely MAC address of your router or other device. But now your laptop is flagged.

Things they link for future ban.

Profile photo.

Credit Card.

Email Address.

MAC address of devices.

IP Address of internet connection.

I think I got back in by logging in from home PC in private mode, Vanilla card and new email address from a different domain / provider and used no photo.

[QUOTE=GuyInTheCorner;5749034]I just tried to renew using a reloadable Vanilla Visa I've used multiple times before. As recently as last September. It did not work. I then tried Re entering the card info as a new card. Still no luck. I'm probably going to give up. I have a nice stable to keep me entertained for a while.[/QUOTE]Why don't you use the reloadable Vanilla card to buy a [b]OneVanilla[/b] card as that seems to be the one that works consistently?

[QUOTE=ErnestLl;5750399]Likely MAC address of your router or other device. But now your laptop is flagged.

Things they link for future ban.

Profile photo.

Credit Card.

Email Address.

MAC address of devices.

IP Address of internet connection.

I think I got back in by logging in from home PC in private mode, Vanilla card and new email address from a different domain / provider and used no photo.[/QUOTE]Try one of those VPN. You can't be tracked through those.

I was very excited about joining SA after browsing profiles for a week. (I recently posted about having issues with paying for Premium. I ended up paying through the app, which does not accept discount codes. I was pretty disappointed by the support dept and their so-called billing dept, aka answering machine. I get much better support for services I pay less for.).

I've been Premium for about 10 days, and I've had a mixed experience. I expected the prospect of financial help to really motivate these young ladies. Instead, I am puzzled by the apathy & disinterest I am experiencing. The majority of my messages haven't been read. Most members don't check their messages regularly, are inactive, or take breaks for months at a time.

The responses I do get are mostly non-starters, ie they don't progress the conversation. It's just a quick "ok" or a 2-3 word answer to an open-ended question. You'd think they'd put some effort into it. Others have been worse. They simply ignore my message & try to direct me to Snapchat or phone numbers. The positive exchanges have been rare, but they do exist and I do believe I will meet women soon. I am just puzzled by the general indifference.

[QUOTE=Lobsid;5748058]It's just some good advice. Talking about PPM is the number 1 reason SD get ban from SA. All you need is 1 SB to flag your account for talking about PPM, and you will be ban. If you want to keep rolling the dice that's your choice.[/QUOTE]Getting flagged is the key, its not hard to avoid.

[QUOTE=Shampoo55;5747940]What is your screen name on SA?[/QUOTE]NiceNutsNerd.

When SA doesn't work, [URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/2a2971ea-7ae8-40e0-a45b-636a996c5017[/URL].

Some of them post on STG [URL]https://richmond.skipthegames.com/female-escorts/caucasian_w/white-tight-n-ready/602296338553[/URL].

Pretty sure it's the same girl by the cursive tat on the shoulder?

Anyway, if it is, checkout the rate on the Escort forum before you commit to a big allowance on SA.

[QUOTE=SBmidlo;5752543]When SA doesn't work, [URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/2a2971ea-7ae8-40e0-a45b-636a996c5017[/URL].

Some of them post on STG [URL]https://richmond.skipthegames.com/female-escorts/caucasian_w/white-tight-n-ready/602296338553[/URL].

Pretty sure it's the same girl by the cursive tat on the shoulder?

Anyway, if it is, checkout the rate on the Escort forum before you commit to a big allowance on SA.[/QUOTE]I love the "not a prostitute" note.

[QUOTE=Tidad;5752666]I love the "not a prostitute" note.[/QUOTE]"But I'll take money for access to my pussy".

Scammer [URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/56dacb2b-5c25-4119-80fb-3ded2f2f7518[/URL].

What a bargain! Wants money on Cashapp to chat just to make the cut to be able to talk to her. This is the reply that she sent to a message:

"Hi there! Due to the overwhelming amount of messages I receive, I am trying to weed out the people who aren't serious. If you are, please send a deposit of $20 to cash app $jennajennajenna1 and then send a message if complete. You will receive a special thank you in return to show you have been favorited. Thank you for your time and interest!

[QUOTE=RonPamet;5751942]I was very excited about joining SA after browsing profiles for a week. (I recently posted about having issues with paying for Premium. I ended up paying through the app, which does not accept discount codes. I was pretty disappointed by the support dept and their so-called billing dept, aka answering machine. I get much better support for services I pay less for.).

I've been Premium for about 10 days, and I've had a mixed experience. I expected the prospect of financial help to really motivate these young ladies. Instead, I am puzzled by the apathy & disinterest I am experiencing. The majority of my messages haven't been read. Most members don't check their messages regularly, are inactive, or take breaks for months at a time.

The responses I do get are mostly non-starters, ie they don't progress the conversation. It's just a quick "ok" or a 2-3 word answer to an open-ended question. You'd think they'd put some effort into it. Others have been worse. They simply ignore my message & try to direct me to Snapchat or phone numbers. The positive exchanges have been rare, but they do exist and I do believe I will meet women soon. I am just puzzled by the general indifference.[/QUOTE]1. [B]Patience[/B] If you expect a reply from every message you send you'll be frustrated. Hit rate is prolly 20%.

2. Hit as many profiles as you are interested in. If yer looking for good sex 6,7, & 8's can do that too. If yer looking for a beauty queen, competition is tough.

3. Check when the girl was last online, anything over 2-weeks, I avoid or don't expect a reply.

4. If one is not getting replies, perhaps take a look at what is in your opening line?? Need to get them interested in the 1st 10 words, since that is what they can see before opening the message. Also take a look at your profile. You are SELLING YOU, so need to make sure you put your best foot forward.

5. Don't treat them or approach them like they are escorts. They are, but they want to have the illusion of not being a prostitute.

6. Win them over with charm and a fun personality, not just how thick is your wallet. Girls get HUNDREDS of messages, make your self stand out from the idiots!

7. Put in the TIME it takes to make this work. It takes A LOT of time! Learning curve can be steep to start.

8. A girl sending you to SnapChat is likely going to try to get you to buy content- * But that can be dealt with.

9. Girls directing you to their number right away? IMHO that's a good thing! You CAN NOT talk about the details of sugar on the site, so you need to get convo offline. Plus texting seems to get a faster reply that onsite messages.

Maybe others have ideas of "what works" and could share them?