Massage Parlor Reports

[QUOTE=Kurocha;1239738]Went to Ohana to pay a visit to Kimberly for one of her pau hana massages. When I get there, I was surprised to see Big Cherry now known as CAT. She tells me that there were too many providers named Cherry so she didn't want any confusion. Looked great, cut her hair and dropped a few kilos. Told me that she works from 1pm to 9pm and need to call Ohana in advance to make sure it isn't her day off (942-0202?). Told her that I would return to see her later as I didn't want to have any issues with Kimberly as I had made an appt. In advance. Not much new to report about Kimberly, good massage with the titty finish and HJ dessert. Good way to end the work day before hitting the Ewa bound traffic.[/QUOTE]Kurocha, I did see her at Ambrosia cc awhile back, MS invited me to eat lunch. The haircut, dropped a few kilos, she does look good you're right. I didn't know she moved.

Update well received. Thanks G1

Call Sisi's place, ask who working said have tete working. I have had pretty good service in the past. Since she has not been working for awhile thought she would be hot

And ready to go. Our session together was below what normally would be pretty good service. She is about 5'4 Chinese 140 weight late 30s C's. No BJ, no kissing,

No nothing. Just straight forking. No playing with jr. To get him hard or anything. Before we got started she mention that she also just got off her period, so the period

Smell was still there. Every time I try to go deep, she keep moving all the time. All the positions, she just kept moving around. The service this time was real bad.

Everything covered. Took shower after thank her and left. I guess she had a bad day but, I wish money grew on trees. Repeat no. LAS 564 $50.

I've been spoiled by Ivy's (7) CG. She does it with a lot of "torque" and power like a power hula dancer or like a stripper on "coke." I want to try another provider who can match that. Does anyone know of another provider who can do that? K. C.

[QUOTE=King Cobrack;1241035]I've been spoiled by Ivy's (7) CG. She does it with a lot of "torque" and power like a power hula dancer or like a stripper on "coke." I want to try another provider who can match that. Does anyone know of another provider who can do that? K. C.[/QUOTE]I had Ivy 2 times. Wild. Sindi from PT who I saw only once kinda reminded me of Ivy wild style. Sindi was better looking but Ivy I thought was better in service. Both I would consider "Wild".

[QUOTE=King Cobrack;1241035]I've been spoiled by Ivy's (7) CG. She does it with a lot of "torque" and power like a power hula dancer or like a stripper on "coke." I want to try another provider who can match that. Does anyone know of another provider who can do that? K. C.[/QUOTE]Checked out 7's a week ago was greeted at the door by this k-girl, my guess was early thirties, pale, no make up, slender about 5'6" and oh maybe 110 pounds, a's and a pretty face / no make up. Not m. S. But maybe the door gal? Does this sound like Ivy, cause if she can do what you said she can I may have to go back to see her! Anyway ended up seing Yuri, after all the talk about her I was expecting. I don't know what, but it was high, to high. She was about 5'0" and 112 pounds about. She had the build of a bobby sox player, small pooch, pretty face, half kgal, half gal oh yeah and a pretty thick. Meaty butt. But lmo it's not that butt that makes her hot but its her personality and enthusiasm, this girl seemed so happy to be where she was, you can't help but to love her, so refreshing an rare to see, so tired of seeing unhappy providers, she was giggling and laughing, before, during and after. You all know standard positions all covered, pulled out and cot. Again it was so good to have a provider who was so happy and friendly, you guys mght remmber her for her butt but I'll remember spirit, WTF, never sought a great personality at an AMP, but I'm going to go back for more for sure!

[QUOTE=King Cobrack;1241035]I've been spoiled by Ivy's (7) CG. She does it with a lot of "torque" and power like a power hula dancer or like a stripper on "coke." I want to try another provider who can match that. Does anyone know of another provider who can do that? K. C.[/QUOTE]Torque? Does she spin or something? ... or gyrate in a circular motion? Sounds interesting!

Was hornier than a puppy with three peters this morning so l left work, stopped by the bank for some roses, and headed over to 7. Called on the way but no answer. Anyway I parked at Don Quixotes and walked over. Rang doorbell numerous times, still no answer. This was disappointing because I really wanted to bang that beautiful little Coco. Plan be, head to Roses and see if that rim job specialist was still here. No luck but met Blue. She said she used to be at cc. Said she just returned from Anchorage and Albequerque. Tough life. Anyway she is very pleasant, gives a good shower, goes into the room and takes off her bikini. Nice figure, nice natural lawn, nice fits. She has a tounge like a Cobra on steroids. That tounge was flicking all over my body. CBJ, k9, mish. Hot towel and I split. Definite repeat at some point.

Called 7 the other day and recognized the voice. I asked if it was Ivy that I was speaking with to which she replied yes.

I told her every-time I came down she always said they she couldn't service me. I said that I wanted to make an appointment with her.

She told me to come down and that she had new girl to which I re-emphasized that I wanted her.

"Sorry I cannot-I'm on vacation."

[QUOTE=Lowlys One;1241071]Checked out 7's a week ago was greeted at the door by this k-girl, my guess was early thirties, pale, no make up, slender about 5'6" and oh maybe 110 pounds, a's and a pretty face / no make up. Not m. S. But maybe the door gal? Does this sound like Ivy, cause if she can do what you said she can I may have to go back to see her! Anyway ended up seing Yuri, after all the talk about her I was expecting. I don't know what, but it was high, to high. She was about 5'0" and 112 pounds about. She had the build of a bobby sox player, small pooch, pretty face, half kgal, half gal oh yeah and a pretty thick. Meaty butt. But lmo it's not that butt that makes her hot but its her personality and enthusiasm, this girl seemed so happy to be where she was, you can't help but to love her, so refreshing an rare to see, so tired of seeing unhappy providers, she was giggling and laughing, before, during and after. You all know standard positions all covered, pulled out and cot. Again it was so good to have a provider who was so happy and friendly, you guys mght remmber her for her butt but I'll remember spirit, WTF, never sought a great personality at an AMP, but I'm going to go back for more for sure![/QUOTE]I don't think that was Ivy. I would say she is around that height but last time I saw her maybe 120-125 lbs. Face not too pretty, black hair and dark tan. She get one deep, loud voice, I would guess late 30's. Not my cup of tea but gives a good, bone cracking massage. Just my. 02.

The one you saw sounds pretty good and I might have to check them out.

KP

[QUOTE=Hypo Luxa;1241072]Torque? Does she spin or something? . or gyrate in a circular motion? Sounds interesting![/QUOTE]Gyrate in a circular motion with that hip grinding power and squeezes at the same time. She's akin to a sprinter that competes in the 100M. 200M. 400M, though, and can't last that long as she goes all out from the start. Energy level. Some brother commented that she tries to rush you. In a sense, I agree with that but not that she tries to rush you out. I get the full hour, with the bang, TS shower, bone crushing massage, and cuddling at the end. She gives me that look, like come already, but does continue when you keep going and changing positions. She also breathes like a "locomotive" while doing the deed. She is indeed wild. i wish Julie (Ichiban) could do that. I'd see her more often. Donna (Pinks) "out of the blue" tried to do that exact move but lacked the power and "torque." I couldn't help myself and burst out laughing and I asked her where'd she learn that move. She didn't say anything and just giggled. K. C.

[QUOTE=Kpounda; 1241282]I don't think that was Ivy. I would say she is around that height but last time I saw her maybe 120-125 lbs. Face not too pretty, black hair and dark tan. She get one deep, loud voice, I would guess late 30's. Not my cup of tea but gives a good, bone cracking massage. Just my. 02.

The one you saw sounds pretty good and I might have to check them out.

KP[/QUOTE]Yeah, she has a masculine face and she has a deep and loud voice and had to look twice at her when she laughed. That laugh was the only turn off. Looked at her face closely and looked closely at her poji. Yep, confirmed. Nice poji. K. C.

[QUOTE=RadioHazard;1241062]I had Ivy 2 times. Wild. Sindi from PT who I saw only once kinda reminded me of Ivy wild style. Sindi was better looking but Ivy I thought was better in service. Both I would consider "Wild".[/QUOTE]Did Sindhi have that hip grinding power too? Anybody else? K. C.

[QUOTE=King Cobrack;1241290]Did Sindhi have that hip grinding power too? Anybody else? K. C.[/QUOTE]Yo,

Best I ever had was the Lucky / Penny / Purple. She ride you so hard that your pee pee would feel like it broke in half.

The Julie / Jackie gave me that wild ride a couple times back when she was the Jackie at Sakura-I'm pretty sure she was on the X at that time, tho.

Sindy is very good, but she don't have the power of porn star wannabe Lucky. Too bad she gone.

JB

Haven't seen Monica for a month. Mimi at pine Tree is on vacation so Monica is my number two girl. Got there for my 10:30am appointment, everybody was cleaning up the place and thats why Kison is the cleanest AMP in Hawaii. Paid Channel house fee $50 and took a fast shower, went to left back room, and Monica comes in with a big smile and hand on hips and says were have you been, [I see her every two weeks] but I have been over seas on business. I have already undressed and sitting on the edge of the bed for 5 minutes, she bends down and starts DT BBBJ and like the other post said she has a new way with her tonge rolling it around the head of jr in her mouth. Then DT all the way down and sticks her tonge out and licks my balls. She did this about 5 times. That felt really really good. Ask her to do this to you guys next time you see her. She told me to get on the bed and she BBBJ for about 10 minutes twice a drink of ice water. Then I sucked her tits first left one then right, she was holding them in her hand each time like feeding me, CG, RCG great view she is the best in Hawaii in this position, we did everthing real slow with DFK everytime we changed positions. She said honey can you come on top, so in mish we fit really good not too big and not too small. Her legs started to vibrate and she came really hard, she got up and wiped her nani and started a slow and deep suck on jr with that new tonge action. I cim and she was sucking and sucking I had to push her head up to stop her. She spit it out and drank some more ice water. We talked and a little LFK this time, this was a great GFE. Lots of guys says she does the same thing all the time but for me its different everytime. $200 tip

Who do you guys think is the best girl at 7? So far I've only hit up Yuri. I wouldn't mind trying someone else but not sure who. Ivy, Joanne, Cindy are on the list.

[QUOTE=YG365;1241333]Who do you guys think is the best girl at 7? So far I've only hit up Yuri. I wouldn't mind trying someone else but not sure who. Ivy, Joanne, Cindy are on the list.[/QUOTE]Yo,

Sessions with Ivy are pretty much non stop sex. She has the best energy of the three, and will do more things to you. Joanne is the prettiest there now IMHO. But her svc. Has mixed reviews. The Sindy has meat on her bones, not a spinner, and not vocal at all. If you want a real chill session then Sindy. She does have that NY attitude, a turn off to some.

YMMV. To me, Ivy will fook and suk you damm good.

Jb

[QUOTE=YG365;1241333]Who do you guys think is the best girl at 7? So far I've only hit up Yuri. I wouldn't mind trying someone else but not sure who. Ivy, Joanne, Cindy are on the list.[/QUOTE]It depends what you are looking for. CoCo and Apple are really nice and friendly providers besides being pretty. Cindy is more laid back and not as talkative but friendly in her own way. I am the kind of person that enjoys not only the sex part but the conversation and abilty to get into the girls head / emotions like a GFE.

[QUOTE=Kurocha;1241562]It depends what you are looking for. CoCo and Apple are really nice and friendly providers besides being pretty. Cindy is more laid back and not as talkative but friendly in her own way. I am the kind of person that enjoys not only the sex part but the conversation and abilty to get into the girls head / emotions like a GFE.[/QUOTE]I enjoy the GFE as well. Any suggestions?

[QUOTE=Kpounda; 1241282]I don't think that was Ivy. I would say she is around that height but last time I saw her maybe 120-125 lbs. Face not too pretty, black hair and dark tan. She get one deep, loud voice, I would guess late 30's. Not my cup of tea but gives a good, bone cracking massage. Just my. 02.

The one you saw sounds pretty good and I might have to check them out.

KP[/QUOTE]I thought I heard Ivy, but maybe not. Didn't hear her laugh so, she could have been 120 pounds, I'm so bad with estimating weight, she was slim, but no hint of a suntan, does she relieve ms sometimes?

[QUOTE=Showtime2169; 1241281]Called 7 the other day and recognized the voice. I asked if it was Ivy that I was speaking with to which she replied yes.

I told her every-time I came down she always said they she couldn't service me. I said that I wanted to make an appointment with her.

She told me to come down and that she had new girl to which I re-emphasized that I wanted her.

"Sorry I cannot-I'm on vacation."[/QUOTE]And now she was answering the phone, it appears thst she was the ms that night but not sure was her she did have a manly looking face, with no. Make up, so I thought she looked good, not. Into makeup. Maybe she is working as ms that's why. She can't take you.

[QUOTE=Kurocha;1241562]It depends what you are looking for. CoCo and Apple are really nice and friendly providers besides being pretty. Cindy is more laid back and not as talkative but friendly in her own way. I am the kind of person that enjoys not only the sex part but the conversation and abilty to get into the girls head / emotions like a GFE.[/QUOTE]Tammy would be one you may like. I dig her hair she is also friendly. Not sure if she is still there. Also Channel who I believe from a previous report as returned as also another hottie.

I hate the parking at 7 but the girls this place all seem very friendly never had a bad time here with anyone. They are all great in different ways.

Cindy surely has a laid back mellow vibe. She has as classy look and personality if that makes any sense. Tammy is more bubbly.

Kinda wish Amy from Sakura would return to the lineup. I think Ivy is now doing the Mama San Thing.

[QUOTE=Panda Bike;1241326]Haven't seen Monica for a month. Mimi at pine Tree is on vacation so Monica is my number two girl. Got there for my 10:30am appointment, everybody was cleaning up the place and thats why Kison is the cleanest AMP in Hawaii. Paid Channel house fee $50 and took a fast shower, went to left back room, and Monica comes in with a big smile and hand on hips and says were have you been, [I see her every two weeks] but I have been over seas on business. I have already undressed and sitting on the edge of the bed for 5 minutes, she bends down and starts DT BBBJ and like the other post said she has a new way with her tonge rolling it around the head of jr in her mouth. Then DT all the way down and sticks her tonge out and licks my balls. She did this about 5 times. That felt really really good. Ask her to do this to you guys next time you see her. She told me to get on the bed and she BBBJ for about 10 minutes twice a drink of ice water. Then I sucked her tits first left one then right, she was holding them in her hand each time like feeding me, CG, RCG great view she is the best in Hawaii in this position, we did everthing real slow with DFK everytime we changed positions. She said honey can you come on top, so in mish we fit really good not too big and not too small. Her legs started to vibrate and she came really hard, she got up and wiped her nani and started a slow and deep suck on jr with that new tonge action. I cim and she was sucking and sucking I had to push her head up to stop her. She spit it out and drank some more ice water. We talked and a little LFK this time, this was a great GFE. Lots of guys says she does the same thing all the time but for me its different everytime. $200 tip[/QUOTE]Panda you got class, she gives you good service she deserve a extra tip, she happy you happy.

Happy mongering Panda

Alohaoe

Those Kison hoes, sans Monica, are ugly with a capital UGLY

So finally took the plunge and tried Monica at Kison. I went before but never had her and got turned off with that damn gap under the door. Thankfully the gap is closed and the AC is working real good. Made the appt. Went on time. Monica is attractive, Korean MILF for sure with the bolt ons. Showered, she asked if I wanted to have sex or massage first, asked for the massage since I had heard about before. Got to admit the massage was pretty good, she does a good job stepping on your back and legs. Then the action starts with the BBBJ with the water in her mouth. Her technique is good, felt really nice and she goes deep. Had some DATY, back to BBBJ. 69, CG. Asked her to lie down, more DATY, mish till cum. She can take it well.

While she is attractive she is kind of thin for my taste. I like a woman with something to grab on to like Mina who used to be at Ichiban. Also her bolt ons were nice with big nipples but my preference is for naturals.

Monica is a good provider but I was getting annoyed when she said she loved me like 10 times and she wanted to see me the next day cause she will miss me. May go back, not sure. BBBJ were really good though and the place is clean and smells nice.

[QUOTE=Heavy Chevy;1241724]Those Kison hoes, sans Monica, are ugly with a capital UGLY[/QUOTE]I thought I was the only one besides a buddy of mine. I recommended her to my friend because of the positive reviews here and he was totally turned off by her. I figured I got to see for myself so off I went to Kison. MS told me everyone busy so wait 10 minutes. I should have bailed then. Anyway I was curious so I went back up after the 10 minute wait. She walked in and thought she looked alright for a MILF but because the lights where turned down a little low. During the massage, I felt everything was planned and routine for sure. Everything happend exactly how everyone describes here. Massage was ok but not great at all. Kinda irritating with her asking "feel good?" every 3 minutes. Ice water trick is nothing compared to my SO but it was alright. Then she mounted me CG and thats when I got a good look at her. I had to close my eyes and imagine someone else. All you Monica fans don't take this the wrong way but dam, she looks kinda odd but YMMV. Ass felt weird, titties looked odd too. Maybe too far apart? I don't know. Something about her was not attractive to me. L5.

Her personality is really sweet though and thats what made up for everything else. Mounted her in Mish, then DS then finished in Mish, still closing my eyes. Attitude is she aims to please. A8. 5 / S8. 5.

She is a really nice person and wish her well but she is definately not for me. During the session she mentioned that she wanted me to try everyone else at least once. Then when I was about to leave she tells me come back and see her tomorrow? Will not repeat, You brothers can dish it out between yourselves on this one. Standard fees applied.

[QUOTE=Kpounda;1241868]I thought I was the only one besides a buddy of mine.[/QUOTE]Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but he was saying all "but" Monica were ugly.

Sans = except or but or without, depending on the context.

She is an acquired taste. One I like.

She is back but service is going downhill. Is busy so spends less time and wants you to finish quickly. Will go to other AMP cause they tend to rush you out the door.

[QUOTE=Hypo Luxa; 1241875]Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but he was saying all "but" Monica were ugly.

Sans = except or but or without, depending on the context.

She is an acquired taste. One I like.[/QUOTE]Got it. Maybe I was a little harsh on the looks. I give her a 6. 5 instead. I guess she alright for age.

[QUOTE=YG365;1241333]Who do you guys think is the best girl at 7? So far I've only hit up Yuri. I wouldn't mind trying someone else but not sure who. Ivy, Joanne, Cindy are on the list.[/QUOTE]Seen only two there but saw a bunch of them. In the parlour so can only base my opinion on looks only and for me it is Honey, looks the hottest, but her service leaves much to be desired, not so much the sex part but her demeanor doesn't lend itself to making the monger feel. Totally comfortable. Yuri on the other hand is completely the opposite, smiling, laughing, gigling, talking and of course pounding. Would reapet with Yuri first, something has got to be said for a persons service / demeanor / personlity, even in an AMP!

[QUOTE=Kpounda;1241903]Got it. Maybe I was a little harsh on the looks. I give her a 6. 5 instead. I guess she alright for age.[/QUOTE]For me, I'd say her looks just "get the job done."

[QUOTE=RadioHazard; 1241683]Tammy would be one you may like. I dig her hair she is also friendly. Not sure if she is still there. Also Channel who I believe from a previous report as returned as also another hottie.

I hate the parking at 7 but the girls this place all seem very friendly never had a bad time here with anyone. They are all great in different ways.

Cindy surely has a laid back mellow vibe. She has as classy look and personality if that makes any sense. Tammy is more bubbly.

Kinda wish Amy from Sakura would return to the lineup. I think Ivy is now doing the Mama San Thing.[/QUOTE]Was there a cece a few months ago or did I hear her wrong and she said cindy? Your guys description of cindy kinda resembles cece.

Do any of the girls offer LFK? DFK? FIV? BB?

I know Yuri doesn't.

Went to Kison last night. Greeted by mama Chanel. Paid her house fee and waited in room. Noticed they closed the gap under the door as other reported. In walk a 5'4" about 110lbs girl. She told me her name is Bebe. Medium length black hair about 25 years old. Started off with a decent massage. Then flip, she massage my legs and slowly worked the way up. Grab my jr and gave me a slow and soft HJ. Then BBBJ. Good suction. Made my jr so hard then she mounted on top with CG, I played with her natural bees. Then RCG. Switch to doggy then mish. I pounded her for about 5 minutes, couldn't wait and cum. BBFS. She continue to massage me until the hour is up. She made me feel very comfortable. No rush at all. Will repeat.

L:8.

S:9.

A:9.

Damage: 0. 5 + $.50

[QUOTE=Heavy Chevy;1241724]Those Kison hoes, sans Monica, are ugly with a capital UGLY[/QUOTE]But very fun, none the less.

[QUOTE=YG365; 1241998]Do any of the girls offer LFK? DFK? FIV? BB?

I know Yuri doesn't.[/QUOTE]I have not had any luck either with BB, DFK or FIV. Did get to DATY with Yuri one time, and with a few others in the past, can't remember the names. But seems like service is always covered. Have not seen Yuri in awhile, maybe I'll pay her a visit soon. She's one of the nicest providers out there.

[QUOTE=YG365;1241333]Who do you guys think is the best girl at 7? So far I've only hit up Yuri. I wouldn't mind trying someone else but not sure who. Ivy, Joanne, Cindy are on the list.[/QUOTE]Chanelle is one of them. You got to try her. I think of all the people who have had Chanelle, there wasn't a negative report on her. She's normally busy. I had her when she was at Sakuras. She's in her late 20's and is tanned. Someone mentioned recently that she lost some weight. But, she looked good already the last time I saw her when she was working at Sakuras. So, I dunno how she looks now. She has a good personality and can joke around with her. Not the tight, stuck up type with rules. English is fluent as she's from SF.

The only thing is maybe you might think she's another Korean Kim Kardashian like how you thought about Julie at Ichibans. Hehe. But, maybe not.

[QUOTE=Heavy Chevy;1241724]Those Kison hoes, sans Monica, are ugly with a capital UGLY[/QUOTE]Heh, this may sound blunt but, it has truth. If you seen and had young providers like Yuri at 7, Bobbi at Ichibans or Sugar at Nirvanas, these 3 girls are young looking with cute faces. You can tell by their faces they are young. But, you don't see girls at Kison that are young and cute. They may say their in their 20s, late 20s etc but, they don't look young. However, the thing about Kison is its a place that you can go to for HS and they don't complain about it compared to other AMPs where they prefer FS. Also, some people don't mind the looks and prefer the service. Oh, plus the place is clean.

Yo,

Have to agree the Chanelle is a must see. Easy on the eyes late 20's tanned. Her attitude is like the Yuri, except the Chanelle will DATY and will get lost in

The passion if you click. The action will start in the shower if you click with her, hehe.

The Sindy is pretty busy, strange considering she's the most laid back-more like a princess high maintenance type.

I've had great sessions there with almost all them hoes, and had even better ones with the hoes that were at Sakura.

My favs there are Chanelle, Apple, Sindy. Add the Tammie when she's fresh from vacation. Yuri's ass is the best on a k girl. All covered svc, but no rush, and not predictable or routine at all.

Jb.

[QUOTE=Uki Eater; 1242361]Chanelle is one of them. You got to try her. I think of all the people who have had Chanelle, there wasn't a negative report on her. She's normally busy. I had her when she was at Sakuras. She's in her late 20's and is tanned. Someone mentioned recently that she lost some weight. But, she looked good already the last time I saw her when she was working at Sakuras. So, I dunno how she looks now. She has a good personality and can joke around with her. Not the tight, stuck up type with rules. English is fluent as she's from SF.

The only thing is maybe you might think she's another Korean Kim Kardashian like how you thought about Julie at Ichibans. Hehe. But, maybe not.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Uki Eater;1242370]Heh, this may sound blunt but, it has truth. If you seen and had young providers like Yuri at 7, Bobbi at Ichibans or Sugar at Nirvanas, these 3 girls are young looking with cute faces. You can tell by their faces they are young. But, you don't see girls at Kison that are young and cute. They may say their in their 20s, late 20s etc but, they don't look young. However, the thing about Kison is its a place that you can go to for HS and they don't complain about it compared to other AMPs where they prefer FS. Also, some people don't mind the looks and prefer the service. Oh, plus the place is clean.[/QUOTE]You guys crack me up. All you hater who says she is too old. Most you guys who go the AMP have no game in picking up a hot chick so you have to pay for a hot chick to fuck you. The girls are thinking the same thing of you! As soon as you walk through the door. Oh no, I have to fuck this fat old / young ugly guy. Looks fade in time. We all have to grow old and die. So why all the bickering about she is too old. Get over it and move on!

[QUOTE=Mauka;1241895]She is back but service is going downhill. Is busy so spends less time and wants you to finish quickly. Will go to other AMP cause they tend to rush you out the door.[/QUOTE]Yups, RM famous for cutting time on customers. Have no clue why anyone goes there. Door knock at 40 mins everytime. First time I gave benefit of the doubt, but second and third time- forget it.