White knighting doesn't work for mongers
White knighting does not work for mongers because it is inherently hypocritical. Once you stick your dick inside her for money, you lose all moral authority with her and just become another person with whom she has to do unpleasant things in order to pay for xyz. All the emotional angst that you experience over this isn't going to change that, nor is trying to take the moral high ground with a girl after you have already paid her for sex. So the only truly effective choices you have are to: (1) get over it; or (2) stop mongering. There is no such thing as the noble pervert and running that act with these girls just makes things that much more difficult for them.
I do not post much here, but I have been paying strippers for sex for 15+ years and have long since reconciled myself to these realities. For me, these girls are grown adults who make their own choices. We really have no control over how they spend our money once they earn it and even some of the "clean" looking girls have habits, pimps, etc. Now I also avoid girls who looked fucked up, have track marks or have visible pimps, but that is purely for my own safety. I am not enough of a hypocrite to take the twisted moral position where I object to enabling bad behavior when I see it, but am perfectly fine with doing so when I don't.
Oh, and as you continue to cope with your guilt over enabling girls to do bad things by paying them for sex, ask yourself this: Would they be better off without that money? They may be paying for bad habits, but they also pay for housing, food, transportation, etc. Are you making their lives better by withholding that money?
Just a few things to think about.
[QUOTE=BearB;3002376]Really want to go there JD? Self reflection is a dangerous thing, and it rarely leaves us feeling better about ourselves. I, like you, really care about some of the young ladies I have met in this hobby; many of them, in fact. I have fallen in love, in various aspects, with a few of them. The help I have tried to render to a couple has been to no avail. I really wish I could wave a magic wand and make all of bad in their lives go away. Many of them are gone now; a whole hell of a lot more than the 25 that we have read about in Jacksonville over the past year. You probably know as well if not better than me, that caring too much has its inherent dangers. Remember that old fucked up question: what came first, the chicken or the egg? I ask, what came first: the hooker or the John? Does one exist without the other? Who really enables who? I would submit to you this: for every provider out there that is an addict, there are dozens of Johns that suffer to an equal or greater extent a different type of addiction. And while one might argue otherwise, I would submit their addiction can be no less totally destructive. Of course that does not apply to any of our monger friends on usasg?? None of us would engage in such risky behavior that could lead to the loss of our friends, families, our jobs, result in us ending up in jail, or succumbing to a disease that we refuse to acknowledge or seek help for. I would bet most of us on this forum would argue we are too smart to be lured onto such a destructive path. Take me for example. If you think for a moment that the lure of a beautiful, sweet smelling, sweet tasting young lady with a perfectly shaped ass, breasts, and a personality to boot, a girl that will let me bust one off in her ass and then DT me to a second orgasm down her beautiful throat, you would be wrong. No, that is not me. I would never drive an hour in one direction in pursuit of a fresh piece of ass. I would not wait in a parking lot for an hour or more waiting for my soon to be latest conquest to finish with the piece of shit John she is currently banging so she can accommodate me. Unprotected sex? I would not consider it. Take time off work for a mid day rendevous? No way. Run a little short on money to pay bills this month to accommodate a $250 donation to a good cause? Never! Catch an STD? Will never happen to me. Wife finds out about my hobby? Arrest? Fired from job? We can deny it all day long, but many of us are in fact addicts. And to be sure, the addiction, is potentially no less of a problem than that of alcohol, crystal meth, heroin and the many others. Hell, like me, I would bet you are familiar with a couple of mongers that have been exposed in this hobby and have chosen the easy way out! Sickeningly sad, but true. Until one hits bottom, recognizes that their lives are being destroyed by the addiction and actually reaches out for help, I fear there is little that can be done. Intervention, therapy and rehabilitation just do not work if the addict is not a willing participant. I've administered narcan intravenously to several addicts brought into local emergency rooms in drug induced comas. The reversal effect is almost immediate and dramatic. Have had the same individuals present to the ER a week later with the same problem. Some don't make it. Never a pretty site. One can counsel all day long about the consequences of our choices, but until another wants and is willing to listen we cannot help. We will never eradicate this age old problem. If every one on this forum quit the hobby today we would probably not put a dent in most providers business, but I do wonder. For me personally, I know I can not solve all the woes of the world. Where I differ from many though, is I believe in my heart if I can make a difference for even one person, whether it be a patient, a provider, or a monger, it is time and effort well spent. I would like to think I could make better choices, and encourage providers to do the same. You know exactly what I am talking about. I have been a hobbiest for about 45 years now, and I still find myself saying the same things. I need to make better choices and encourage providers to do the same. One thing I have committed to doing based on recent events is to walk from providers that are high or drunk. If drug paraphernalia are present in the room I am going to walk. If big brother is lurking I am going to walk. If the provider has a hint of recent track marks I am going to walk. If uncovered services are offered to me I might just walk. The last one for me poses significant challenge. Will just have to see where it goes. Having said all that, I am not ready to leave the hobby. It has always been an adrenaline rush for me, a high in its own right. I love the variety, the challenge, and all the obvious perks associated with being in the presence of an uninhibited provider. We are all dogs JD and far too many of us just cannot help ourselves. I would argue it is in our nature. Like you though I am a bit sickened by the recent passing of some of our old "young" friends. Fuck! To think I could have contributed even an iota is nauseating. That said, I am so fucking pissed that Aubri's voicemail box is full. I so want to rest my balls on her beautiful chin. I am a sick fuck. At least I acknowledge it.[/QUOTE]
I understand your position
[QUOTE=BearB;3005163]I appreciate your sage words of wisdom and advice. As I find myself approaching the verge of beyond help, may I ask that you take a moment and pray for me.[/QUOTE]And if you want to be genuine that is noble. These women are human beings, that goes without saying. I mentioned you being conflicted simply because you seem to genuinely care about some of these women and their well being, all the while enabling them by paying them to have sex. No judgement being passed by me at all. Just an observation.
Guilt / blame in the wrong place
[QUOTE=ThisBlows;3005212]I believe there are times that all of us hate ourselves for the things we have done and continue to do in this hobby or even the things that we think we should have done differently. That being said, we should not beat ourselves up about whatever it is that we think we did wrong. Most of these women live a tragic fucked-up existence and were broken inside long before we ever met them. That doesn't mean that we can't still see them as real people, but we should remember why we go to them in the first place. To get fucked! Plain and simple. We don't go crazy, waiting hours to see these girls so that we can rescue them or buy them groceries. We put up with all of their bullshit and drama because we need to get fucked or blown or whatever by them. As long as it involves them making us cum, it's all good. It is what it is and we should learn to accept that and be okay with it. It may mess with your head sometimes, but we all make choices in life that we question.[/QUOTE]I hear you and Bear too, but I think that my experiences in sourcing pay for pussy primarily from strippers has given me a different view on this topic. I also believe that where I have done a lot of my pay for pussy, a high % of it in the northeast before I moved down here a few years ago, also colors my views.
There is nothing inherently destructive about paying a girl for sex. There are many girls that do it for a variety of reasons. In my former locale, my pay for pussy partners were predominantly (1) single mothers trying to provide for their children; and (2) girls from overseas trying to send money back to their families. I picked these girls up in strip clubs and my payments to them were supplemental to what they made in the clubs. I also travel a bit and most of the same has held true with the girls that I sourced from clubs in other cities, including places on the Left Coast, TX and the Midwest. These arrangements were simple, fun, and clean all around. The worst intoxicant that my partners were on was generally alcohol or maybe a little weed.
It was not until I moved down here that I saw the hard core drug element so infused with the pay for pussy market. I never pick up SWs and rarely dial BP girls, so I might have seen it more up north and in other areas if I did so. But here in J'ville it has also bled heavily into the strip clubs too, where of course I source most of my action. It has been depressing and a lot harder to find the right partners than it was in my former haunts, so I do understand where you guys are coming from.
But my ultimate point is that, in my humble opinion, this angst and guilt felt by some of you is misplaced. These girls were fucked up long before you met them and nothing you will do, for the reasons I discussed before, will change that. Paying them for sex is not the problem and there are plenty of girls who build good lives, or accomplish necessary things, by selling sex. So with all due respect to our salty 45 year vet, I think his long time doing this in J'ville with BP and other problem providers has made him a little myopic. Also, even a guy with my paltry 15 year history understands that trying to "help" girls who don't want that help, especially from mongers, is both pointless and actually makes things more difficult for them. In this newbie's humble opinion, the best that we can do, short of ending our monger careers and setting up outreach programs instead, is to treat them kindly when we deal with them and, of course, pay our tabs.
I just cannot help myself.
Despite a great wariness of self-revelation in a public fuck forum, I simply must wade into the swamp of monger moral philosophy. Like my brother bruin, I also lean in the direction of Socrates' "the unexamined life is not worth living". (And look where it got him.) I think about this shit too. I've said it before: when it comes to moral culpability of mongering, maybe you don't want to think about it too hard.
That may be particularly difficult for those engaged in professions with a perceived moral basis higher than that of simply turning a buck & making a living. Basically, from a traditional, simplistic perspective, how does one simultaneously do the work of the angels while playing with demons?
I really try to have no illusions about all this. I do try to relate to providers as the kind, compassionate, decent guy I am while recognizing that, at least in some cases, I am doing them no real favor in buying what they are selling. I try not to be a sucker for a hustle, not entirely successfully, mostly because I really don't mind a request to pick up food or give her a ride if I've got time to do it & we have an established relationship. I don't confuse the weird visceral affinity that fucking produces with actual emotional bonding, though I do understand why many folks don't make that distinction.
Compartmentalization & rationalization are probably important skills here. I have honed those skills through self-bargaining, from making deals with myself. For example, I really do prefer sticking with married / committed providers who are happy swingers and / or self-described nymphos who enjoy having fun for money. There really are unicorns out there & I hunt them hard.
Also, I was enough of an outlaw back in the day to learn how to walk the wild side while avoiding the thornier thickets of introspection & moral discomfort. But enough about that.
As to the question of whether one's mongering has led you into a dangerous moral morass, ask yourself a simple question: can you walk away? As anybody who has ever worked a 12-step program can tell you, if you think you have a problem, you do. And if you want to know for sure, see if you can stop.
If I could ever overcome P4 P (which I'm working on)
It would be one of my most greatest accomplishments! It is so much easier to hit it and move on rather than deal with these crazy ass relationships in our private lives. I've been doing this long enough and it's about time I make a better effort. Anyway, here's to putting your best foot forward!
If it had been any other day than Monday.
[QUOTE=RickDugan;3006937]If you are shopping in a marketplace where the addiction rates are really as high as 80-90% and it truly bothers you so much, then maybe you should draw them from a different pool. I do (as I discussed amply below), which is why I am not confronted with this as much and perhaps makes my perspective different. As I said before, selling sex is not inherently destructive and plenty of girls who do so use the money for legitimate purposes, including supporting kids and extended family in other places.
But with all of that said, do some % of the girls that I pay for sex have addictions and just hide them well? I wouldn't be surprised. But at the end of the day, each person has the free will to make his or her own choices and she has as much free will as I do. It is utter "the world revolves around me" hubris to believe that any one of us is going to change the choices that these girls make, whether by offering a payment for sex or not. Seriously now, do you really believe that your $60 QV payment is the difference between whether a girl goes on to be a Rhodes Scholar or instead sucks your dick for a fix? And sure, maybe she has a harder time paying for her fix if you decide to boycott prostitutes, but it also makes it harder for her to buy her next meal and to keep a roof over her head. How exactly would that help her?
Oh, and to get ahead of the next "but I don"t want to contribute to the problem" argument, which is an extension of the theory that this would all go away if we all stopped buying, I say bullshit. For starters, it is an irrelevant point as guys have been buying sex since forever and that will never stop, so whether you "contribute" or not is meaningless in the broader scheme of things. Perhaps as important though, this assumes that many, if not most, of these girls would not find some other means of accomplishing the same ends, which is a goofy assumption to make.
This is not rationalization, but rather simple common sense. In my humble opinion, seeing it this way just requires one to shake off the arrogant and false belief that he has the power to influence these girls' choices, along perhaps with whatever latent guilt he carries around with him about the morality of paying for sex in the first place.
Anyway, just my two cents for what it's worth and this will be my last post on this matter as anything else I say will just be repetitive.[/QUOTE]But I hate Mondays. I'm in a crabby mood. So apologies for responding.
Let me get this straight. My opinion may be skewed by an adverse sample (I'm selecting from the wrong pool); my hubris neglects to take into account "free will"; and why fight it because it will never go away. Did I get that right.
Ok. Adverse sample. Perhaps, but I don't think so.
Get yourself a legal pad. Every day look at the daily arrest reports for the tri county area. Note names and offenses. Do that for awhile. You may discover a couple of things. First the Jax market is smaller than you might think and its highly interconnected. Girls go from strippers to BP to street walking then back to stripping. In other words, the segments are dynamic. Also the longer the time horizon, the less likely the sampling will be adverse. Why because providers jump across segments. And LEO could give a fuck about market segmentation.
So are my percentages off? . maybe, but the National Average of Drug Abuse among Providers is 70%. And as a well traveled and experienced monger, you even admitted that Jax's drug use among providers is high. I don't think my numbers are materially high. But don't take my word for it. Do your research.
(BTW, the single most important risk mitigant for a providers / hobbyists, maybe be drug use, particularly opiates IMO).
Free Will. I would wager that you (Tricky Dicky) would suck the dick of a donkey to avoid the physically excruciating pain of drug withdrawal. Yep even you. That's the nature of addiction, it robs the addict of free will. They will beg, borrow, steal, and suck the dick of a donkey to avoid the withdrawal. So the notion that these addicted girls have free will. Is absurd. They may have chosen the first time they stuck that needle in their arm. But once the body is addicted. The battle for free will is squarely on the side of addiction. If you've ever had someone in your family who suffers from addiction, then you know.
As for the "its always been here. Its never going away". Rings of "everybody does it so why shouldn't I" bullshit. Like dude, wasn't that debunked in kindergarten, c'Mon.
Look. Your free to do what you want I could give a fuck. But own it. Like don't hide behind flimsy rationalizations. A pussy does that.
A few months ago, some on this forum were leaning into PoniBoi for barebacking chicks. In true PB fashion he crafted a response, a poetic verse that might appear on his headstone. It was classic PB.
But here's the point. PB owned it. I may disagree with his choice to go into battle without a shield, but I respect him for owning it. He knows the risks and consequences. And he sure as shit isn't blaming anyone or anything else. His choice. His outcome.
So dude. Grow a pair.
J4 me.
The medical community is frightened
[QUOTE=TomCat4871;3009131]Anybody recognize this dancer? Social network indicates one more to add to the RIP list. This was apparently a few months back so not recent.[/QUOTE]There is a significant uptick in deaths related to drug overdose in our local market. It is up more than 200 percent! See the story in this link:
[URL]http://www.news4jax.com/health/heroin-other-painkiller-overdoses-reach-record-high[/URL]
Q, anybody with half a bit of sense would do the same
[QUOTE=Quebec;3008416]My number 1 concern! I play with that concern in mine and how to minimize it.[/QUOTE]The adverse repercussions resulting from an arrest can be devastating both personally and professionally. I remember a Mayo hospital doctor trying to meet someone for sex on the internet and how LEO was waiting for him once he got there. Because he wasn't a citizen yet, he was deported back to his country. So many more examples of how folks lives were turned upside down due to P4 P. It's not worth it! It is nothing wrong with being on guard but most importantly, gain a very sound education about the do's and don'ts of this hobby. There is a lot of education out there, even on YouTube. On YouTube, you can put in prostitution sting in your search and you will see real life examples or actual stings going down which will provide a nice educational opportunity. Keep your guard up players!
