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I was out on Torresdale Ave last night. Saw a girl on the corner of Comly Ave, just beside the bar. Its obvious she was working. This was about 1:20am. I circled her a few times just to get a good look at her. But, i was too cautious. Another monger beat me to her just as was pulling up to her. She was short, about 5'5 and had dirty blonde hair and looked to be in her late twenties. Next time, i guess. I have yet to make a score on Torresdale.
Very good point on K verses Craigs. I've done both with various reasons. It's a shame what's happened with Craigs, because you're right, there use to be many more ads. Although, it's also cleaned up the junk ads. Unfortunately, many girls don't use because of the very reason you mentioned is fear of LE.
I've used both Craigs and K and NJ(South). It all depends. If I have the time and it's a nice day, I liked to go to New Jersey. I kinda thought of it as a safer zone for a while (wild west). LE wasn't as tough and plenty of talent, very cheap. Recently, I've been forced to change that assessment because of the LE activity. So I won't be going there until the winds die down a bit and I feel like I won't get hasseled.
I used the K for a while before I found NJ and I've since gone back. I don't see as much as I did in NJ, but it's now safer. So I've gone back to the ol' hunting grounds.
I check craigs out because of convenience. Living west of KOP, it's a hike to do either NJ or Philly. Even when I went to either place there was no guarantee that anything would be found, so that becomes a *Tough Trip*. Even more so, when gas was close to $4 a gallon. Trips were costing me $15 - $20 depending on how long I stayed out searching.
Where I live, we use to have Norristown, but it's a wasteland now...anything you do find is very hard searched for and is only a fraction of the talent in Philly or NJ. So I either have to wait until I have 2 to 3 hours to kill or use another method. Craigs list does cost more but has a little more convenience due to time.
When I do use craigs, I usually drop 1.0. I never spend more because I don't think I need to. Recently, from what I'm seeing, I might be able to drop to .8 and .75 for the same service. Which for me is a good place.
With Craigs, I can be at their hotel usually in minutes. The hunting is done on-line and I can see the pictures. Sometimes they aren't what's advertised, but that has happened a few times.
The *Risk* is when you go to the room and you don't know if it's a sting, etc. This is what really gets me nervous. Once we're past that, it's nice, clean, private, and relaxing. After a while, you get to know who you can trust, because like the K, there are regulars.
I don't know how many other mongers routinely travel 80 minutes round trip to check things out, but sometimes it's nice not to make that trek.
When I factor in my travel time and degree of success (making an appointment verses find the right SW), it makes sense sometimes to use an escort.
SWs = .2 (room) + .4 (FS) + .1 (gas) + Time = .7 + Time (120 minutes)
Escort = 1. (Room + FS) + Time (10 minutes)
In any case, this has been my experience. I wish I was closer, then like you, I would stay on the ave. No reason for you to do anything else. Out where I live, sometimes it makes sense to use craigs every now and then.
Which is why I keep my eye on it. If supply and demand continue and drive the price downward, now we're talking a bargin for me. The equation becomes:
Escort = .80 (room + FS) + Time (10 minutes)
(which is now only .05 off from SWs cost)
Isn't amazing how the economy could change so much?
Of course, this is only from my perspective. Who else has a similar situation?
I just have a few comments on what we are seeing in the different scenes.
K Ave ( and most SW in SJ/Philadelphia area)
What has kept prices so low is the cost of narcotics which in real dollars has probably decreases since the crack epidemic. Most SW use either crack or heroine and those prices have not seen a significant increase in the last 20 years. If you bargain well you can get the same services for the same prices we were paying in the mid 90's. One of the other fact to realize is that most working people have seen relatively flat increases in pay since the late 90's. This keeps the price people are willing to pay down. Now the really ugly thing about SW is that there is a chemical dependency being fed which gives the monger the upper hand in almost every case. Many SW will just do as many dates as it takes to make X dollars. There are some who have their addictions relatively under control and will walk away from a low ball offer. In the end I think cost is mostly tied to how much they need to make.
CL
Since the advent of the $5 charge for posting an add a lot of the spam has disappeared. I have been told by a reasonably good source there is a way around supply traceable information when placing an add. So the smart ones can probably place adds without any added risk. The risk comes with the fact that now that there are fewer adds it is much easier for LE to pick out adds to bust. There are some local municipalities that seem eager to make these types of bust. KOP probably tops the list of the most dangerous place for providers though bust are occuring all over these days. I missed a bust by maybe as little as 10 minutes about 2 years ago at one of the notoriously dangerous hotels in KOP. I happen to get on an elevator with security on my way out as they seemed to be a little to busy in for a normal mid day. She was from a well know touring agency and I was able to confirm that she had been arrested. Cl has always been cheaper than most independents with their own websites and I think the prices do reflect the economy though I think most of the "new" providers may be from adjacent businesses. Not too many accountants start turning tricks to make ends meet but a stripper who has crossed the line a few times in a lap dance room might. Have you seen the business in SC lately. I see some of the weak ones closing. I think CL and backpage in this area are questionable but you can find some diamonds in the rough and since they usually do not have websites can be bargained with.
Agencies/Independents
There was great article on the economy in relation to Independents in Vegas which I will link if I can find it. To summarize, those in the middle where hurt the most. The low end Independents where seeing more business. The High end ones had clients who were not as financially troubled by the downturn in the economy. That seems to make sense to me. A simple example of how many things work in the US is gas prices. When gas prices go to $5 a gallon it is the person making 25K a year who is really hurt. The guy making 125K does not like the price but he can live with it. Even unemployment to this point is disportionality hitting those without college educations as the the real unemployment rate for those without is actually higher than the national average. The one caveat the article pointed to was that the high class lady interviewed was offering more services for her price than in the past. I think if you have been watching the other provider boards, about 1 1/2 years ago you would have seen that the average local independent was charging 300 per hour. Some were even charging 350. Today most of the locals are sitting on 250 advertised as "specials". I think we will see more of these specials but with these provides they are more apt to start offering more time or services than drop their prices lower. But what do I know! It really depends on how long this down turn last. I know that I am watching my spending closely.
This is a pretty good one mostly about Vegas.
[url]http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/dec/14/economy-affects-supply-demand-some-special-twists/[/url]
Wanted to know if anyone had any tips for the K, Cruised the K last night for my very first time for about 2 hours with no luck. Only saw one or two SW. I wanted to know is their more activity on the weekend, or is it better to go during the day. Like I said I'm knew to the SW scene, but I do the escort thing and I frequent AMPs so maybe I can help someone with that.
Thanks!
[QUOTE=Runnow]This is a pretty good one mostly about Vegas.
[url]http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/dec/14/economy-affects-supply-demand-some-special-twists/[/url][/QUOTE]Excellent article Runnow! Thanks for sharing it. Both it and the commentary following it were interesting and illuminating. I commend it to every monger's reading list.
Just a few points in the article worth mentioning:
It would seem that nobody is immune from a bad economy: most prices, even SW prices tend to stay level and/or go down.
The mid to higher end ranges of private services are far less affected by the economy than the lowest end. Someone who can afford a Bentley buys one in good times and bad. In the middle a doctor or lawyer client may feel a pinch in a downturn, but still can afford his pleasures. At the bottom, SWs become more plentiful and typical customers are less able and less willing to part with their money.
SWs make up only 15% of the providers but 80-90% of the vice arrests for prostitution. They didn't cite the reasons for this but I am sure we as mongers could speculate on a few.
There was a study of SW earnings in Chicago and it amounted to $25-30 per hour.
There is a lot more information in the article worth chewing on. The above are just a few appetizers. Thanks again Runnow for posting it.
Runnow and Abcpanther bring up excellent points.
Runnow mentions that the price of narcotics has a great deal to do with SW pricing and the prices of narcotics have remained somewhat stable since the mid nineties, and that has a big influence on what drug dependent SWs will charge, as it relates to how much they need to make. This is a very salient point because the law of supply and demand assumes rational buyers and sellers, and clearly a chemically dependent SW is not totally such. The issue really does become how much business she has to do to make the X dollars she needs to feed her habit and how willing she is to do that. She will likely be chemically motivated within a great range of time she is willing to devote to her work, but there is a practical limit. However, this does raise another economic issue: the prices in any market are set by the most competitive sellers, so drug dependency and the cost of drugs does have a direct bearing on overall SW pricing, whether the SW is drug dependent or not.
Abcpanther mentions a particular issue that dramatically overshadows and keeps me away from independents and escort services, despite the pricing or quality or time commitment issues (all still worth discussing), and that is the legal risk. How close he came to being pinched in a sting is a forewarning to the wise. How easy is it for LE to post a fake ad in Craigs and just wait there with bait for mongers, or respond to an ad for an indoor place, bust it and sit on it to gather up the customers booked for the day and/or night. I saw a TV special where a vice squad in LA did that very thing and made 13 different arrests at one hotel room. There is virtually no way to protect yourself from this type of sting, and, if you have been following my running commentaries on entrapment, don't think that being clever about it in any way will be an adequate defense or save your fanny from a bust for solicitation.
[QUOTE=Supereloquent]Runnow and Abcpanther bring up excellent points.
Runnow mentions that the price of narcotics has a great deal to do with SW pricing and the prices of narcotics have remained somewhat stable since the mid nineties, and that has a big influence on what drug dependent SWs will charge, as it relates to how much they need to make. This is a very salient point because the law of supply and demand assumes rational buyers and sellers, and clearly a chemically dependent SW is not totally such. The issue really does become how much business she has to do to make the X dollars she needs to feed her habit and how willing she is to do that. She will likely be chemically motivated within a great range of time she is willing to devote to her work, but there is a practical limit. However, this does raise another economic issue: the prices in any market are set by the most competitive sellers, so drug dependency and the cost of drugs does have a direct bearing on overall SW pricing, whether the SW is drug dependent or not.
Abcpanther mentions a particular issue that dramatically overshadows and keeps me away from independents and escort services, despite the pricing or quality or time commitment issues (all still worth discussing), and that is the legal risk. How close he came to being pinched in a sting is a forewarning to the wise. How easy is it for LE to post a fake ad in Craigs and just wait there with bait for mongers, or respond to an ad for an indoor place, bust it and sit on it to gather up the customers booked for the day and/or night. I saw a TV special where a vice squad in LA did that very thing and made 13 different arrests at one hotel room. There is virtually no way to protect yourself from this type of sting, and, if you have been following my running commentaries on entrapment, don't think that being clever about it in any way will be an adequate defense or save your fanny from a bust for solicitation.[/QUOTE]
Runnow, thanks for the article and comments. I'm always interested in what's going on in surrounding areas and what drives the business. I guess that the thought is forwarned is forarmed. Plus, I never thought of the demand from from drugs and how that effects the price. While I do believe, once pointed out it makes a lot of sense.
Supereloquent, very true comment about escorts and independants. You brought up good points that I didn't consider. I don't do it very often, but when I do, I'm nervous usually until we get down to business. After Runnows, comment about potential security raids, now I have that as a concern.
I wonder, from anyone's perspective..."What" can be done to minimize the risk of getting caught with Independants and Escorts? It would be nice to have something to refer to such as the "22 Monger Rules".
Does anyone have any value for this? If so, I would be willing to post what I do from picking the escort, making the phone call, the actual visit at the hotel, what to look for when entering the room.
I'm not sure if what I do really works, but it's what I've developed over time to try to stay safe.
Any thoughts?
[QUOTE=Bmac1981]Wanted to know if anyone had any tips for the K, Cruised the K last night for my very first time for about 2 hours with no luck. Only saw one or two SW. I wanted to know is their more activity on the weekend, or is it better to go during the day. Like I said I'm knew to the SW scene, but I do the escort thing and I frequent AMPs so maybe I can help someone with that.
Thanks![/QUOTE]Finding SWs on the K is a lot like fishing. You need to know WHEN to fish, WHERE to fish and HOW to fish if you expect to have any success.
I would say that 90% of the time I cruise the K I see at least one SW and more often than not 3 to 5 on any one pass, so for me it is usually a matter of choice rather than taking what I can find. And that is a daytime experience. Beginning at rush hour through early evening, multiply the SW availability by a factor of 3 to 5. But also multiply the mongers by more than those factors. As to weekends, many of the SWs are drug dependent which is a 7 day a week job in feeding their habits, so one day, in my experience, is pretty much like another in terms of SW availability.
That leaves the 10% of the time it is dry as a bone. It doesn't often happen but sometimes you just come up empty. I have actually never cruised K looking for a date and had to come home empty handed but some times you just have to work harder than others. Yesterday that happened to me. I made 4 complete passes on the K and saw zero, absolutely nada. But on the 5th pass I found a SW I recognized that to most others might have appeared to be waiting for a bus (because it was not a known SW pickup corner), and she was just sitting there, not really looking into car windows, smiling or waving, or giving any obvious SW signals. Right after that date I picked up another I recognized just walking casually in her sweatpants and jacket, whom most might also easily have taken to be a civilian. If you have the patience, just like in fishing, it can also be better to sit on a known corner and munch a snack and listen to the radio rather than staying on the move. If a really attractive SW appears she will be taken very quickly and the likelihood you will just happen to be driving by at that moment are not good unless you are willing to invest a lot of time and make your own luck.
This brings up another important factor if you are new to the K scene: the SWs there blend in. They are likely to be wearing jeans and a hoodie and sneakers, not 5 inch spike heels and a mini dress up to their cootchies. So if you don't know any of them you may have passed quite a few and mistakenly thought they were civilians. They aren't always posted conspicuously on a corner, smiling and waving. Sometimes they are talking on their cell phones, jawboning with a friend, or just walking along and sipping a soda.
As to where: there are 3 main concentrations of SWs: on the north end of the stroll in the Ontario to Castor area, particularly on the Castor and Ontario corners themselves and several corners just north and south of each, in the Somerset area and in the vicinity of the Woodshed, and at and in the vicinity the Huntingdon subway station (there are usually, but not always, one or 2 lurking on the block of Letterly off the K; they used to hang around the laundromat at the corner of Letterly and K, but I haven't seen any there for quite a few months now). Some of you may have a problem with all this specific information as alerting LE, but I beg to differ. All of this has been posted in here before in one way or another and it is nothing of which LE isn't already very well aware, trust me. I don't mean to taunt LE; you fellows and gals do a fine job of protecting us from the real criminals who harm us, and rob and destroy our property, and I heartily commend you for putting yourself in harm's way to do that. But even if LE chooses to lock down these locations, there is enough territory on the K to open up shop in a dozen more. I could have gathered the intel I have shared as an observant civilian in a one day investigation of K. However, BE CAREFUL how you pick up a SW. That is a whole separate issue of common sense and safety.
[QUOTE=Bmac1981]Wanted to know if anyone had any tips for the K, Cruised the K last night for my very first time for about 2 hours with no luck. Only saw one or two SW. I wanted to know is their more activity on the weekend, or is it better to go during the day. Like I said I'm knew to the SW scene, but I do the escort thing and I frequent AMPs so maybe I can help someone with that.
Thanks![/QUOTE]I was on the K last night also from 5:00 PM to 8:00PM ( picked up Stacy, and later Deanna and spoke with a couple of others) and saw plenty, on my very first stroll I saw only a couple also, but after many trips I learned to spot many more, Like at the bus stop where they never get on the bus, or other gathering points to blend in, they are the ones that are there hour after hour while the other's leave, they are there just give them a good look and they will give you a look back, When you drive past, give them a look, if they look back, put your turn signal on so they see, and turn down the next street (make sure your going the right way down the one way streets) about 5 to 10 cars down and wait with your turn signal on as a signal to see who will come down the street to greet you, Just give them a little time, the better ones are more cautious, will check out the area first then make there way to see you. I had as many as 3 come up to the car at the same time ( I saw only one girl and gave her the nod but where the other 2 came from ?), I start talking talking to them, and pick the best one.
Of coarse the amount of girls will vary, like if there is heavy leo, or bad weather, but I see more girls during the week early evening, there may be more girls on the weekend, but alot more mongers picking them up, also more girls on the south end of the K.
Happy Hunting
By the way I know one of you mongers had to talk with her what was the story with the Cute Young Blond on lettery last night, I tried to do the pick-up but someone was always there talking with here, but never got picked up, I guess she was waiting for a appointment or something I tried 6 times last night but seemed to be a never ending line of vehicles there talking with her ?
[QUOTE=Abcpanther]"What" can be done to minimize the risk of getting caught with Independants and Escorts? It would be nice to have something to refer to such as the "22 Monger Rules".
Does anyone have any value for this? If so, I would be willing to post what I do from picking the escort, making the phone call, the actual visit at the hotel, what to look for when entering the room.
I'm not sure if what I do really works, but it's what I've developed over time to try to stay safe.
Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I think one important thing is the phone/email. You can do wonders with virtual machines and throw away phones.
Never meet a woman who you have not seen a picture of and has never been reviewed. If you show up and it is not her. "Oh, I must have the wrong room" If you are in a room when a bust goes down, make them prove what has taken place. It is probably wise to book early in the day or tour. getting references can be a problem but once you have seen a few well know ladies make sure you stay in touch.
It is difficult to be 100% safe but some of the other more escort oriented websites have guys and ladies who are practically professionals.
[quote=runnow]i think one important thing is the phone/email. you can do wonders with virtual machines and throw away phones.
never meet a woman who you have not seen a picture of and has never been reviewed. if you show up and it is not her. "oh, i must have the wrong room" if you are in a room when a bust goes down, make them prove what has taken place. it is probably wise to book early in the day or tour. getting references can be a problem but once you have seen a few well know ladies make sure you stay in touch.
it is difficult to be 100% safe but some of the other more escort oriented websites have guys and ladies who are practically professionals.[/quote]your suggestions are worth noting; however, i would still contend that visiting an independent is equivalent to taking a chance in losing the sting lottery.
in a sting, the environment is controlled by le. on the street, there is still risk but you control your own environment to a great degree. if you are observant and careful on the street you will avoid obvious stings, if just to observe a simple rule and say nothing incriminating until the sw gets in and you are well underway and certain there is no le backup tail. this is not true in a hotel room where there can be surveillance to and from and even in the room and recorded evidence will hold up in court. even an independent already known to you or exactly the picture in her ad could have been turned by le in return for immunization from or leniency regarding other charges. this is a very common le sting ploy to catch "regulars," and spread the sting net very wide. read the folowing from a research piece by frazier on the subject of sting operations in general: "almost all sting operations result in either arrests or convictions, many of them startling (one reported 700 arrests), with very high conviction rates ranging from 70 percent to 95 percent." there may be all sorts of ways to avoid this by being extra specially careful, but i wouldn't bet against the odds.
do you recall the "sting" operations conducted on tv to catch internet predators of **** girls and boys supposedly home alone? they had printouts of the computer communication and a good computer expert could trace it to your computer regardless of how you hid it. plus, these guys were all arrested on the spot, most after admitting nothing, and just for showing up at the appointed time and place! very few if any of them admitted to a thing. but that didn't matter. you would have to have your computer contact with the independent escort be totally untraceable, your telephone contact likewise (including the manner in which you purchased a throwaway phone), and you would have to make sure you didn't bring the phone with you or keep it in a place which could be found after a search warrant were issued. plus you would have to make sure your computer was clean of all incriminating evidence and a damn good reason why you "just happened" to make a mistake going to the "wrong room" at precisely the room and time you were expected? and is your alibi as to the "right room" in that hotel solid (assuming you even have the discipline to do this if a really good looking girl answers the door, even if she isn't the one pictured)? and suppose it is the girl pictured in her ad or you have even been with her before and she has been turned. will you be aware enough to know this? can you do all of the above? do you want to do all of the above? every time you see an independent? and even if you can beat the rap and get off being convicted, do you want to have an arrest record for a sex offense? as for me, i will take my chances on the street.
Wow, Supereloquent! I think you might have ruined my reason to go see an escort or independant. Which I didn't think was possible. I assumed the chances of getting caught were about the same, whether I was on the street or using an escort.
A couple things you point out that I took note to. When LE set up a sting, they are putting together resources (Money) to clean up a particular area or hotel ("get results"). Probably due to complaints. This would be their motivation, I assume. For that reason, once they do set up the sting (effort), they are less prone to let you go/slap your wrist because they have to produce results (clean things up). So they have survelance, recordings, phone logs, etc. to prove their case.
On the street, they patrol, but they don't necessarily have to produce results. They are on a beat just keeping the place safe (patroling). If you're not around a lot, repeat offendor, and respect their authority, they might let you go with a warning.
Also, picking up someone, driving around, etc in itself is not against the law. On the street, you have to pick up right in front of LE, negotiate with undercover outside of car, or get caught in act for them to have a good case.
I didn't even think about known escorts that might turn me in to get immunity or lighter sentence. Also, they all require that you unblock calls. So unless using a throw away phone, there is a record that they have of you using their services, which doesn't go away.
Saw this article in the news, which is amazingly timely: [url]http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6318384.html[/url]
This escort service was in Houston. They think that she has thousands of clients from doctors, lawyers, athletes, etc. All of them rich. The owner of the service did everything to keep from getting caught. She would only deal with the rich. You had to be invited to be in the inner circle. You would have to go through her own check. They preferred outcall so that it didn't create traffic in the neighborhood. The couple operated out of the home, but didn't change their standard of living. Also done so that they would not draw attention.
Even with all the checks and balances they had in place, the couple was turned in by one of her girls (obviously for a lighter sentence). The LE were patient and watch them for a year. LE also made all kinds of recording. After shutting down the business, LE took the computers/phone/etc and now of all the clients.
Too much of a trail. Didn't think about it that much before, but now I have a better idea.
Good discussion.
Thanks
[quote=supereloquent]your suggestions are worth noting; however, i would still contend that visiting an independent is equivalent to taking a chance in losing the sting lottery.[/quote]
it is all risky.
[quote=supereloquent]
in a sting, the environment is controlled by le. on the street, there is still risk but you control your own environment to a great degree. if you are observant and careful on the street you will avoid obvious stings, if just to observe a simple rule and say nothing incriminating until the sw gets in and you are well underway and certain there is no le backup tail.
[/quote]
just like on the streets you should know your environment.
1)know the hotels - some should be avoided
2)know the provider - some should be avoided. i would not give person information to anyone just to see them. some agencies collect all kinds of information and create horrible paper trails.
3)expect that every hotel has surveillance and know how to expose yourself to the smallest degree.
4)think with the big head.
[quote=supereloquent]
.... even an independent already known to you or exactly the picture in her ad could have been turned by le in return for immunization from or leniency regarding other charges. this is a very common le sting ploy to catch "regulars," and spread the sting net very wide. read the folowing from a research piece by frazier on the subject of sting operations in general: "almost all sting operations result in either arrests or convictions, many of them startling (one reported 700 arrests), with very high conviction rates ranging from 70 percent to 95 percent." there may be all sorts of ways to avoid this by being extra specially careful, but i wouldn't bet against the odds. [/quote]
correct me if i am wrong but your quote of frazier may confuse some people.
it refer to all sting operations not just prostitution stings. that is an important point that should not be missed.
in the article where i found this quote this is what was said about prostitution stings:
prostitution
female decoys or plainclothes detectives are typically used in prostitution operations. these stings always result in many arrests and good publicity, but researchers have concluded that they have no overall effect on clients.18 however, a benefit of vice stings is that they also help police serve numerous outstanding warrants for offenders wanted for other types of crime. an fbi sting took over a credit card processing company and identified those who had used credit cards to pay for sex. it then processed payments to and from the brothels over a three-year period. this resulted in snagging $100,000 in bribes of local police and the closing of 18 parlors.19 few of the descriptive studies reported the length of the stings, which suggests that police used them in conjunction with the popular use of vice sweeps as a response to persistent prostitution (see problem-specific guide no. 2, street prostitution).
[quote=supereloquent]
do you recall the "sting" operations conducted on tv to catch internet predators of **** girls and boys supposedly home alone? they had printouts of the computer communication and a good computer expert could trace it to your computer regardless of how you hid it. plus, these guys were all arrested on the spot, most after admitting nothing, and just for showing up at the appointed time and place! very few if any of them admitted to a thing. but that didn't matter. you would have to have your computer contact with the independent escort be totally untraceable, your telephone contact likewise (including the manner in which you purchased a throwaway phone), and you would have to make sure you didn't bring the phone with you or keep it in a place which could be found after a search warrant were issued. plus you would have to make sure your computer was clean of all incriminating evidence and a damn good reason why you "just happened" to make a mistake going to the "wrong room" at precisely the room and time you were expected? and is your alibi as to the "right room" in that hotel solid (assuming you even have the discipline to do this if a really good looking girl answers the door, even if she isn't the one pictured)? and suppose it is the girl pictured in her ad or you have even been with her before and she has been turned. will you be aware enough to know this? can you do all of the above? do you want to do all of the above? every time you see an independent? and even if you can beat the rap and get off being convicted, do you want to have an arrest record for a sex offense? as for me, i will take my chances on the street.[/quote]
this is not to catch a predator, please do not make that comparison. le has many motives. it is not all about catching "johns". if you listen to how these bust are justified you may get clues to these motives. think drugs and organized crime. the phone/internet thing can be done pretty well but at least the internet thing may be beyond what normal people can pull off. any thug in philly can get a phone.
the last note is that there have been many more "john" stings on the ave than in a places like kop.
the is the article i have been referring to another good read:
[url]http://www.popcenter.org/responses/sting_operations/1[/url]
[QUOTE=Runnow]It is all risky.[/QUOTE]Absolutely!
I wasn't trying to say that SW pickups aren't risky; just that there are many variables more difficult to control in seeing an independent, and more chances for an evidence trail.[/QUOTE]Just like on the streets you should know your environment.
1) Know the hotels - Some should be avoided.
2) Know the provider - Some should be avoided. I would not give person information to anyone just to see them. Some Agencies collect all kinds of information and create horrible paper trails.
3) Expect that every hotel has surveillance and know how to expose yourself to the smallest degree.
4) Think with the big head.[/QUOTE]This seems like an awful lot of work and investigation and knowledge from my perspective. But, hey, if you want to do it, you may as well do it intelligently and with good research, just as one would want to be that careful on the Ave.
[/QUOTE]Correct me if I am wrong but your quote of Frazier may confuse some people. It refer to all sting operations not just Prostitution stings. That is an important point that should not be missed.[/QUOTE]You are correct. There was no separate data for prostitution stings. But I wonder if that data could be that significantly different. Frazier didn't say anything about the relative effectiveness of one type of sting vs. Another and I think he would have if there were meaningful differences. A sting operation is a sting operation.
[/QUOTE]This is not to catch a predator, please do not make that comparison. LE has many motives. It is not all about catching "Johns". If you listen to how these bust are justified you may get clues to these motives. Think Drugs and organized crime. The phone/Internet thing can be done pretty well but at least the Internet thing may be beyond what normal people can pull off. Any thug in Philly can get a phone.[/QUOTE]Regardless of the motivation for the sting, do you want to be caught in it?
Also, I wasn't trying to say prostitution stings and predator stings were the same. My point was merely that the methodology for the sting is the same: all you have to do is show up at the appointed place and time to be placed under arrest. Maybe you get off and maybe you don't but do you want to be arrested?
[/QUOTE]The last note is that there have been many more "John" stings on the Ave than in a places like KOP.[/QUOTE]I don't have definitive information on this one way or the other, but I would guess there is also significantly higher SW and John activity on the Ave than escort and independent provider activity in KOP. Making a comparison of the relative risk per incident between the two would entail having information that is probably unknowable.
[/QUOTE][url]http://www.popcenter.org/responses/sting_operations/1[/url][/QUOTE]Thanks for referencing this article. It is where I got my quote from Frazier.
Good discussion.
Dudes,
First we are the ones that keep the money in circulation for the SW or Young Dope/Crack Heads on the K as you all call it. All this chat about the economic crisis and how this effected the $ on the K. With supply and demand of drugs. All the big words. BS. Get real and back to the subject. You don't know a thing. You never live on the K. Have you? . Get out and walk the K look anf listen. Your eyes may open.
[QUOTE=CockMaster]Dudes,
First we are the ones that keep the money in circulation for the SW or Young Dope/Crack Heads on the K as you all call it. All this chat about the economic crisis and how this effected the $ on the K. With supply and demand of drugs. All the big words. BS. Get real and back to the subject. You don't know a thing. You never live on the K. Have you? . Get out and walk the K look anf listen. Your eyes may open.[/QUOTE]
CockMaster,
I think we are being real. To think that what happens outside the "K" doesn't effect the "K" is NOT to be real! So what if we walk the "K". I've walked the "K", big deal! I've had a gun pulled on me, I've had a pimp in my car pulling shit, I've busted down a door of a SW's deal gone bad, and had to kick some "Dudes" ass for trying to pull crap on me.
So just because we're thinking a little bit with the "Big-head" and not the "little-head" doesn't mean we haven't been on the "Street" doing the walk.
So what's your "Street-cred"? You live on "K"? You walk and listen to the "Street"? What's the "real" subject? Do you Monger? Do you follow the 22 monger rules? Where do you think they come from?
I'll tell you where. It came from topics like this one.
[QUOTE=CockMaster]Dudes,
First we are the ones that keep the money in circulation for the SW or Young Dope/Crack Heads on the K as you all call it. All this chat about the economic crisis and how this effected the $ on the K. With supply and demand of drugs. All the big words. BS. Get real and back to the subject. You don't know a thing. You never live on the K. Have you? . Get out and walk the K look anf listen. Your eyes may open.[/QUOTE]Did you ever hear the story about the blind men who all felt different parts of an elephant (trunk, ears, legs, tusks, tail, etc.)? They all had a very different impression of what an elephant was and looked like. The people who live on the K, and the businesses there, and the pimps and drug dealers who profit from it and the SWs who work it, and even the LEOs who patrol it, are seeing just a tiny piece of what is going on. And we mongers are no different. It is impossible for anyone to have the "correct" overall view. We are all blind and our impressions are at best a small piece of the overall puzzle. But the K is not isolated from everything else like an island to itself. Everything that happens in the world affects everything else in one way or another. Part of the reason for this forum is to gather the impressions of many of us trying to make our blind ways around the elephant to explain it a little better, especially as it relates to the activity between SWs and mongers. And an economic discussion of pricing as it concerns this topic is certainly appropriate. To deny that is truly to remain blind and not "open our eyes" and "get real."
[QUOTE=CockMaster]Dudes,
First we are the ones that keep the money in circulation for the SW or Young Dope/Crack Heads on the K as you all call it. All this chat about the economic crisis and how this effected the $ on the K. With supply and demand of drugs. All the big words. BS. Get real and back to the subject. You don't know a thing. You never live on the K. Have you? . Get out and walk the K look anf listen. Your eyes may open.[/QUOTE]
You might be surprised about what neighborhood I call home but that's an entirely different story. A good way to change the subject would be to post some different information. So what did you have in mind?
Dear [b]Holly[/b],
It was great to run into you at 6:30 this Friday evening after going up and down the Avenue for about two hours. I was thinking it was really unusual not to see too many girls out during this peak time. The cops were not numerous and the weather was comfortable, so I chose to do one more loop. Then all of a sudden the party began. There was Mary, north of the bookstore, showing her plentiful teeth. There was Gina, inside her Dunkin Donuts hangout, talking up a storm as usual. And there was redhead Nicole crossing Erie Avenue. I passed her by, reluctantly, thinking greater opportunities were ahead. Absolutely nothing against her, I consider her a friend and good date, but like many others here, I'm always wondering who else is out there.
Fortunately, Holly, [i]you[/i] were, just north of the 7-11 on the east side. I was driving down the west side and had to circle around and hope you weren't picked up before I did my three right turns. You weren't. You smiled. I smiled. You hopped in, asked if I was a cop and I asked if you were a cop, and off we went, each hoping the other wasn't lying.
The thing that attracted me to you was your slender youthful figure and luxurious hair. The thing that confirmed my wisdom (luck) after you got in the car was your smile, your bedroom eyes, and your soft small breasts. I couldn't wait to reach a private bedroom. You look a lot younger than your 27 years.
We decided on a well-known townhouse south of Lehigh, which was closer and cheaper than the Carlyle. You asked how much for yourself, I said $50, you asked for $60, I said, well, only with something extra, like a photo. Deal struck. You said, "but only if you don't post it on the USA Sex Guide". Huh? Whoa. You were on to us!
So since you are a regular reader of this forum that's why I'm writing this report in letter form. Besides, I'm always looking for ways to present information in a fun and different way. Oh, by the way, I guess after 167 reports I was a little, uh, modest in saying I was "sort of" familiar with the site. :o
Well, taking photos was certainly not the main event. Being with you on that bed was. I was absolutely charmed by your looks and couldn't take my eyes off of you as you took off that bra. Nice small boobs, shapely body, and a killer smile. It didn't take long to join together as one. I think being in the back room upstairs helps the intimacy, compared to the 1st floor living room accommodations.
I sort of let you control the pace. You certainly didn't waste time undressing, putting on the condom and enticing me into your body. But when I asked to slow down you gladly complied. Your hand caressed me a little too roughly, but again you followed my request to be slower and gentler. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like testicle squeezing or nipple pinching. I'm sure our next visit will feature the soft caresses I like, since you're a happy and willing-to-please partner.
I found it interesting that you don't work for the pimp we both are familiar with, though you live next door and see him frequently. I found your comments about a photographer & a poster on this board interesting. I won't repeat them, so as to help keep us a happy family. But I was surprised that you didn't mind if I posted the clothed picture that I took of you, and asked me only not to post the unclothed picture. You set me straight: facial ID was not the concern, as I had thought. Rather, if someone wants to see you naked, they can darn well come to you and pay for it! Bravo.
Our time together was brief but enjoyable. I'm glad you're back out from your 24 hour+ lockup and keeping yourself afloat after your job layoff, and keeping yourself clean, and enjoying all your dogs. Thanks for the phone number. The fact that you have NOT lost your phone says a lot. See you soon, and I would recommend that others do too!
Love,
Duke
[QUOTE=DukePV]Dear [b]Holly[/b],So since you are a regular reader of this forum that's why I'm writing this report in letter form. Besides, I'm always looking for ways to present information in a fun and different way.[/QUOTE]Yes you do, Duke, yes you do. Outstanding report, as usual. As someone who's been posting here since 2002, I know Duke to be the author of several of the best, most memorable reports I've ever read on USASexGuide. We don't hear from him much anymore (or from OldDog another great Philly poster), but when we do it's always "in a fun and different way."
As for Holly I'd ask her to respond and give us the SW perspective on things. We don't hear that often enough and I for one always appreciate it. As for busting poor Duke as a visitor to this site, yeah that's one that always catches me off guard on the rare times a girl has brought the subject up. I always play dumb and have never admitted knowing anything about it. But with someone like Holly I'm sure I would enjoy hearing her take on our ravings and reviews.
[QUOTE=DukePV]Dear [b]Holly[/b],
So since you are a regular reader of this forum... I'm writing this report in letter form. Besides, I'm always looking for ways to present information in a fun and different way.
Love,
Duke[/QUOTE]
Absolutely the best post I’ve read for some time now.
CookyJar
Good job Duke
Great report! Enjoyed the read.
Ps: You Philly dudes are some picture taking fools.
I don't read this forum much but I received an email today telling me what a great review(report) it was . I have to concur with many of the other fine gents here. That indeed it was a fantastic report. Very creative and extremely well written.
good job
I look forward to reading more of your work in the future.
There has been a lot of great posts on this board, but you take
the award for creativity on this one. Hope to see you posting
more again in the future. And keep the photos coming!
I was at 5th and Westmorland picking up a few things when I saw this hot looking babe show up with a guy getting the same stuff as me. We had to wait a few minutes, and her guy split. When the stuff arrived, we got the stuff but then something happened; she almost got beat down by the proprietor. As I was walking to my car she yelled over asking if I can give her a ride back home. Since it was early, I agreed and she hopped in.
On the way to K and Allegany, we had a good talk. She is a worker and hangs out by the 7-11 (Ontario & K) between 5 and 7 AM. I was surprised she was a SW as she shows no sign of hard drug use and looks hot. She asked if I wanted a "Quick" date, but told her I had to split; so I did not get a chance to try out her services.
Now, here is the deal. The guy she was with was a client who asked her to get him some powder. Since we had to wait for the goods to show up, he got scared and split leaving her. But the purpose of this message is why she almost got beat down. The dude gave her counterfeit bills. We all understand that our donations to these girls go to a dealer. SW’s have no clue about fake money, but dealers are experts. So when out trolling, please use real cash.
Thanks
[QUOTE=Wizard73] The dude gave her counterfeit bills. We all understand that our donations to these girls go to a dealer. SW’s have no clue about fake money, but dealers are experts. So when out trolling, please use real cash.
Thanks[/QUOTE]No doubt the guy split after realizing it was HE who was going to get beat (or worse) when said proprietor found out what was up. Wizard is right, when you immerse yourself into the diabolic, bring real $$.
Went out for the hunt at about 12am tonight. As I drove down Torresdale I see this petite blonde white female on the corner of Longshore, just past the 7-11. I make a few passes for recon then decided she was ok looking enough to pick up. I pulled up down the block on longshore and she gets in. She says her name is Amber and she is 30yrs old.
I ask her for a good spot to park and we got down to business. This girl can talk. And talk some more. I learned her full life story before we got to the location. I was looking for a BBBJ and settled on 25. Her teeth were not in the best condition so I told her just do a HJ. She has a firm petite body, I'm guessing 5'2 with small perky tits. Her sexy little body turned me on so much I told her to drop her pants. She bent over and I did her doggystyle in the front seat. It helps to have dark windows. I threw in an additional 20.
Overall, a good date. Nice body and tits. Built like a 19yo. Talks a lot and very fast. She says her BF is going to get her teeth taken care of. Would repeat if I see her again
Incidentally, she was walking with an unidentified female at the time whose name I later learned to be Cherly, who I believe was also mentioned on this board.
Seems someone is starting a new business with the gals from the Ave. Take a look at the following Ad's, I'm not 100% sure they are the same people but I'm almost positive they are.
Johanna:
CL Ad:
[url]http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ers/1088101808.html[/url]
USA Photo:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71858[/url]
Holly:
CL Ad:
[url]http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ers/1078224640.html[/url]
USA Photo:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71986[/url]
Having met up with Holly in the past week I questioned her about the ad and she confirmed that yes she "was" working for someone who was posting but now has left that persons employment, however this person continues to use the pictures.
What do you guys think?
Z
[QUOTE=Zaphod II]What do you guys think?
Z[/QUOTE]They look very similar. In any case, its not a good thing for mongers if someone starts a business on them.
The first girl looks familiar because we have just spent the last week drooling over her.
This would not be the first time that a girl from the ave went online. It usually does not last long because of lack of transportation and timeliness.
[QUOTE=Runnow]
This would not be the first time that a girl from the ave went online. It usually does not last long because of lack of transportation and timeliness.[/QUOTE]
I'l give her a month at the tops.
[QUOTE=Runnow]The first girl looks familiar because we have just spent the last week drooling over her.
This would not be the first time that a girl from the ave went online. It usually does not last long because of lack of transportation and timeliness.[/QUOTE]
Ok so now I want to kick myself for missing that.
[QUOTE=Zaphod II]Ok so now I want to kick myself for missing that.[/QUOTE]
No kicking yourself for bringing good intel to the board!
[QUOTE=Runnow]The first girl looks familiar because we have just spent the last week drooling over her.[/QUOTE]I agree with Runnow that the first CL girl is almost certainly CJ's Johanna.
But Zaphod you are right that there is a similarity to Jamie's face as seen in the street photo (taken by, wouldn't you know, Runnow). Having seen Jamie in the buff, I can say there's a difference below the neck.
As I said in my December review of Jamie, "The only problem from my perspective was her body. She's 26 years old, and already the boobs are beginning to sag and a couple of wrinkles in the stomach area showed. Like many folks here I (unrealistically) look for a goddess every time, and we all know goddesses have pert shapely tits and flat bellies."
Based on the photos of Johanna I would say she warrants that goddess designation!
[QUOTE=Vin Wal]By the way I know one of you mongers had to talk with her what was the story with the Cute Young Blond on lettery last night, I tried to do the pick-up but someone was always there talking with here, but never got picked up, I guess she was waiting for a appointment or something I tried 6 times last night but seemed to be a never ending line of vehicles there talking with her ?[/QUOTE]Ok I Think I answered my own Question here, The Cute Young Blond with a hoodie, may of been Johanna, and was waiting for a ride to her CL appointment...!!!
(Originally Posted by Zaphod II
What do you guys think?)
[QUOTE]"Seems someone is starting a new business with the gals from the Ave. Take a look at the following Ad's, I'm not 100% sure they are the same people but I'm almost positive they are.
Johanna:
CL Ad:
[url]http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ers/1088101808.html[/url]
USA Photo:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/a...achmentid=71858[/url]
Holly:
CL Ad:
[url]http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ers/1078224640.html[/url]
USA Photo:
[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/a...achmentid=71986[/url]
Having met up with Holly in the past week I questioned her about the ad and she confirmed that yes she "was" working for someone who was posting but now has left that persons employment, however this person continues to use the pictures.
What do you guys think?
Z "[/QUOTE]
Being a landlord and having a friend as a tenant in your duplex is a double-edged sword, especially when the tenant doesn't drive and tends to work graveyard shifts at a store which isn't readily accessible by public transportation late in the evening. That's the backstory to my hijinks last night. After dragging my ass in from work, bloodied but still standing from a combative deposition, I had the task of staying up to drive said tenant into work at 11. Not a term of the lease, mind you, but just doing a favor for someone who often has my back as well. To keep myself awake, I brewed up a pot of extra strong coffee....
....and that's how I found myself, wired late at night, coming back from the far Northeast to my humble Tacony neighborhood, where I somehow found myself driving the span of Torresdale stretching from Tyson to Van Kirk, which is where I most frequently find SW activity (there's another stretch as you approach the K that is sometimes productive, but the stroll I drove last night is literally right down the street from my house).
I found a couple of the usual suspects. An older WSW with raven black hair who I'd picked up once before, and who demanded .40 for a very good BBBJ which she abruptly terminated prematurely. She was too old for my tastes to begin with, so I passed on that, even though she was dressed the part in heels and tight jeans and looking pretty good for someone who could still play Mrs. Robinson to me. I also saw a couple BSWs down by Van Kirk, but based on my prior experiences with BSWs (5 out of the 6 I've picked up have ripped me off or tried to), I passed on them also. Finally, coming back toward the 7-11 at Disston I saw what appeared to be a cute blonde WSW giving me the obvious eye. Turned the corner and picked her up.
Now, I have to confess I'm only semi-sure of her hooker name, and think it was Jamie. She's maybe about 30, very cute with features I thought were Polish. She readily agreed to my offer of .25 for a BBBJ and off we went in search of a spot. Our first choice turned out to suddenly turn into a major traffic artery as soon as my pants were down, and we had to move, but even the minor taste I got there was enough to send this gal right up to the top of my current list. Although not able to DT, she gives what I've previously described as a "theatrical" BJ, very sexy and very nasty and slutty, looking up at me with half-lidded eyes, drooling, spitting, backing off to stroke me with her hand while looking at my cock hungrily and licking her lips in genuine heat. I reached back to play with her puss and found she was already busily doing the same, two fingers jammed in there and working hard. She was getting off and turning me on no end with her hungry performance. In the end, though, she slightly disappointed me by dodging the load, which was considerable after what she'd just done to me. I'm sure if I brought in one of those CSI-style infrared lights, the inside of my care would look like a splatter movie....
Dropped her off near her place and she gave me a number, her actual name, and a DFK goodnight. Asked if I could share her # but she said she wasn't comfortable with that, although I'll likely revisit that issue after a repeat visit or two. IMHO, very well worth it for the sheer enthusiasm, but according to her she was really attracted to me so YMMV. Look between Cottman and Unruh.
And that fucking coffee still has me awake.
Made a pass on the K this morning, WoW was there alot of Leo with K-9 Dogs going into cars they had pulled over, Did not stick around!
Vin - was out at 6 AM and they were in full force.
Was not out trolling, just passing through to work and I got nervous!