Rants and Raves

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5533516]The CDC has stated multiple times that VAERS data is not reliable.[/QUOTE]VAERS data is under reported. Where's your link to this being unreliable? Never been at issue before. Trolls filling out this five page form and lying under the risk of a federal perjury charge?

[URL]https://vaers.hhs.gov/esub/index.jsp[/URL]

And:

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5506651]

I see you are continuing to play the 100% selfishness card [/QUOTE]Are you a female or identify as female? No grown man talks like that to another man unless you're sucking his dick. Right?

[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533738]VAERS data is under reported. [/QUOTE]
Yeah I doubt that.
[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533738]Never been at issue before.[/QUOTE]That was before antivaxxers came out of the basement and certain politicians making taking the shot become political.

[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533738]VAERS data is under reported. Where's your link to this being unreliable? [/QUOTE]It's on the CDC site.

[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533738]Trolls filling out this five page form and lying under the risk of a federal perjury charge?

[URL]https://vaers.hhs.gov/esub/index.jsp[/URL][/QUOTE]Yep it's not that unbelievable anymore given that Jan 6 happened.

[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533738]Are you a female or identify as female? No grown man talks like that to another man unless you're sucking his dick. Right?[/QUOTE]No I am a man and identify as so and besides even if I was a woman it doesn't matter what I said was completely 100% true.

[QUOTE=AaronHamlet;5533710]On this poll equal weighted. Biden's approval is actually in the 20%'s and Orangeman is twice as popular as Kamala. Biden stole the election. He has no base therefore no floor. His ability to govern is over.

[URL]https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/hlzpfslijb/econTabReport.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]Yeah your source isn't very reliable dude and also the election was not stolen you need to move on. 😁.

Vars is basically just the Jerry Springer Show of medicine.

[QUOTE=Bullett64;5534163]Vars is basically just the Jerry Springer Show of medicine.[/QUOTE]Dude, you can't even get the acronymn right. I don't think you're even quaified to be a guest on the Jerry Springer show.

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5533880]No I am a man and identify as so and besides even if I was a woman it doesn't matter what I said was completely 100% true.[/QUOTE]No, what you said was 100% self-righteous opinion based on nothing but conjecture without any supporting facts, and meant to try to guilt shame others into conforming with your misinformed demands. Too bad, it won't work anymore than the fear-mongering tactic will work in getting people to accept this administration's vaccine agenda.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5534497]Dude, you can't even get the acronymn right. I don't think you're even quaified to be a guest on the Jerry Springer show.[/QUOTE]Oops, I missed a letter when typing. Is that a capital offense? Before you say "yes" you might consider your spelling of "qualified" above.

I am proud to be ineligible for the Jerry Springer show. I admit that I am too educated and reasoned for that sort of silliness. Also not wildly emotional or psychotic. And probably too good looking.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5534508]No, what you said was 100% self-righteous opinion based on nothing but conjecture without any supporting facts,[/QUOTE]I have been giving you nothing but credible facts with credible sources but you won't listen to it because it doesn't fit your world view but it does not make what I said any less 100% true.

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5534909]I have been giving you nothing but credible facts with credible sources but you won't listen to it because it doesn't fit your world view but it does not make what I said any less 100% true.[/QUOTE]

LOL- you must be joking! Like that fraudulent article from the Guardian with the Oklahoma ER rooms overflowing with Ivermectin overdoses? Or your bullshit posts about the VAERS system and being able to claim turning into the Hulk? Your ignorant bullshit has been called out so many times that no one has time to waste sifting through all the BS you post. You have no credibility because you're always posting a bunch of unverified, unfactual, untruthful bullshit.

You haven't provided any credible evidence that the vaccines are preventing the spread, because you can't. The vaccine manufacturers don't even make this claim. Only this lying administration and their minions spread this propaganda. I and others have presented a ton of evidence to the contrary, and even the CDC has admitted that the vaccinated carry viral loads as high as the unvaccinated. Your argument holds no water. If you want to get the vaccine because you fear for your health that's fine with me, but don't try to force your agenda on others based on false premises and holier than thou hollow rhetoric. Again, there are strong arguments that can be made that the vaccines are actually contributing to the problem, but I'm not going to rehash that because you won't listen as it doesn't fit your narrative.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5534947]LOL- you must be joking! Like that fraudulent article from the Guardian with the Oklahoma ER rooms overflowing with Ivermectin overdoses? Or your bullshit posts about the VAERS system and being able to claim turning into the Hulk? Your ignorant bullshit has been called out so many times that no one has time to waste sifting through all the BS you post. You have no credibility because you're always posting a bunch of unverified, unfactual, untruthful bullshit.

You haven't provided any credible evidence that the vaccines are preventing the spread, because you can't. The vaccine manufacturers don't even make this claim. Only this lying administration and their minions spread this propaganda. I and others have presented a ton of evidence to the contrary, and even the CDC has admitted that the vaccinated carry viral loads as high as the unvaccinated. Your argument holds no water. If you want to get the vaccine because you fear for your health that's fine with me, but don't try to force your agenda on others based on false premises and holier than thou hollow rhetoric. Again, there are strong arguments that can be made that the vaccines are actually contributing to the problem, but I'm not going to rehash that because you won't listen as it doesn't fit your narrative.[/QUOTE]So are you saying vacations don't work? I'm I understanding you? So all the vacations we got when we were kids have no effect? I wish a could remember a time when we did not have them and the impact those viruses had on the population. But I guess that information does not exist. I don't understand vaccination hesitation or this blatant misinformation campaign. All I know is that almost 100% of the people dying in hospitals right now are non-vaccinated. And I am ok with that as insurance company change policies to charge these people more it or drop them all together it is their choice but choice has consequences. All I hope is that people who choose not to wear a mask as so that we can protect the ones that can not protect themselves.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5534947]LOL- you must be joking! Like that fraudulent article from the Guardian with the Oklahoma ER rooms overflowing with Ivermectin overdoses? Or your bullshit posts about the VAERS system and being able to claim turning into the Hulk? Your ignorant bullshit has been called out so many times that no one has time to waste sifting through all the BS you post. You have no credibility because you're always posting a bunch of unverified, unfactual, untruthful bullshit.

You haven't provided any credible evidence that the vaccines are preventing the spread, because you can't. The vaccine manufacturers don't even make this claim. Only this lying administration and their minions spread this propaganda. I and others have presented a ton of evidence to the contrary, and even the CDC has admitted that the vaccinated carry viral loads as high as the unvaccinated. Your argument holds no water. If you want to get the vaccine because you fear for your health that's fine with me, but don't try to force your agenda on others based on false premises and holier than thou hollow rhetoric. Again, there are strong arguments that can be made that the vaccines are actually contributing to the problem, but I'm not going to rehash that because you won't listen as it doesn't fit your narrative.[/QUOTE]Once again the official data from the CDC is very clear. 95%+ of deaths are from unvaccinated, despite them being just 47% of the population and only 18% of the elderly population that is most vulnerable. You dismissed this. You dismissed this repeatedly. When you offered as alternatives the cherrypicked examples of Israel and Gibraltar as "proof" that vaccinations didn't work, I dug through the numbers and found that they too showed the same pattern of vaccination causing a dramatic drop in hospitalizations and deaths.

When it comes to works that support your claim, there is no dataset too narrow, no source too untrustworthy. When it comes to works that oppose your claim, no amount of data matters, every source is deemed to have questionable motives, etc etc. It reminds me of the whole global warming denialism, where the vast scientific consensus got accused of "wanting more grant money" while unqualified pundits funded by the fossil fuel industry got labeled crusaders for truth. Other times you've taken data from good sources, but then applied non-expert analysis that fails to interpret it correctly.

I'm not terribly interested in sifting through your sources when you dismiss mine baselessly and incoherently. This is epitomized by you simultaneously dismissing CDC's breakthrough deaths vs overall deaths figure out of hand, while demanding that I take your interpretation of the CDC's VAERS data dead seriously.

Oh its also kind of hilarious that after a lecture on profit motives, once again this comes from your own provided source I might add:

SOME OF the loudest opposition to ivermectin has come from Merck Co. , which manufactured the drug in the 1980's. In a public statement about ivermectin on its website in February, it said: "Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to date, our analysis has identified no scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies; no meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and a concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies. ".

If Ivermectin was the panacea you claim it to be then Merck, which invented the drug and manufactures it to this day, would be eagerly hawking it. Instead they desperately beg people not to use it, probably because they don't want to get hit with the inevitable lawsuits when people poison themselves by ODing on a mild nerve agent.

"Luv said:

My issue is not as much with the vaccines themselves (although admittedly, I don't feel the risk / reward is in favor for my age / health profile, and I do also question potential long-term issues which I've already pointed out), but with this administration and media for the censorship and distortion in an effort to force their agenda. I find that censorship and agenda an affront to civil liberties, human rights, and everything this country was built on. I think others in this country have about had enough as well and are starting to voice the same. ".

It was the Trump administration and associates that said it would all go away soon, that it was just the flu, that precautions weren't necessary, that elderly dying just meant it was "their time to pass". Heck most of the waffling by people like Fauci happened under them too, though that wasn't dishonesty. In the early stages they were genuinely unsure about how it propagated. It took time to figure out heavily air-based it was, which meant that sanitizing things wasn't much help, or that being indoors with a few people is more dangerous than being outdoors with many.

Its also a foregone conclusion to me that vaccines aren't going to permanently extinguish Covid-19, for the same reasons that flu vaccines don't permanently extinguish the flu. That IS something authorities are a tad deceptive about, because they don't want to admit that we're probably going to be getting "booster shots" for Covid-19 forever. At this point the role of the vaccine is to reduce deaths, not contain its spread. If people had complied early enough, could we have vaccinated people against the dominant strains fast enough to wipe it out before new strains could evolve to take its place? Maybe. But we don't live in that world.

As for broader questions of freedom, I think this man elucidates my feelings on the subject nicely:

[URL]https://twitter.com/sciencemonkeyca/status/1433971196157173762[/URL]

Society routinely restricts people's freedoms, generally because unrestricted freedoms for one person tends to run over and undermine the freedoms of other. Pandemics also restrict people's freedoms. The sooner we can end the pandemic, the sooner we can be free to move and live without risk. The consistent failure of half the USA to comply with pandemic control measures ensured that the pandemic persisted unnecessarily long and severely, restricting the freedoms of everyone, and restricting freedom permanently for hundreds of thousands of dead Americans and the many live ones who've become permanently debilitated, or who are friends and family of the same.

I'll reiterate that nothing epitomizes your approach to data like how you've handled the CDC's data:

1: You dismiss the CDC's breakthrough deaths vs overall deaths figure out of hand, while demanding that I take your interpretation of the CDC's VAERS data dead seriously.

2: Your interpretation of VAERS data is "anyone who died =after getting the vaccine was killed by the vaccine". You previously claimed "I will grant you that hundreds of thousands of people have died "WITH" Covid19 but I guarantee you that that number is a minor percent when you say that they died "OF" Covid19. " but are now casually applying that same logic you (baselessly) accused the CDC of using.

When asked to delineate between "died WITH vaccination" vs "died OF vaccination" the CDC says the death count is just 3, all of them the Johnson and Johnson one, which has consistently been the one that's raised concerns over blood clots. This isn't even the first or second time that Reuters has had to debunk this, but as is clearly stated:

FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it is unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.

The VAERS data is an all-inclusive "ANY death after Covid-19 vaccination" standard. You are interpreting this as meaning 100% of deaths or close to it are from vaccinations, while rejecting the far lower official figures. And fittingly enough, something like 80%+ of those deaths are indeed elderly people who are for obvious reasons more death-prone than the overall population.

The Covid-19 death data is not "anyone who died after contracting Covid-19" but straight from the mouths of doctor pronouncing cause of death, which you are accusing professionals of systematically lying because reasons. Or perhaps you are just rejecting the CDC who compiles the overall numbers. The same CDC for whom you are using VAERS data as a source.

Why you are doing this is pretty obvious. The breakthrough deaths figure contradicts your ideological worldview, so you accuse the CDC of falsely pushing it to serve a political agenda. The VAERS deaths figure as 'interpreted' by you aligns with your ideological worldview, so you assume it to be 100% valid and have no ulterior motive despite coming from the same source, who by your own logic should have just buried the VAERS data entirely.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19-vaers/fact-check-vaers-data-does-not-prove-over-2000-deaths-due-to-covid-19-vaccines-in-july-2021-idUSL1N2PB2H3[/url]

[URL] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaers/fact-check-reports-of-adverse-effects-in-us-database-arent-confirmed-to-be-linked-to-vaccination-idUSKBN2AE0QQ[/url]

[URL] https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths/fact-check-vaers-data-does-not-prove-thousands-died-from-receiving-covid-19-vaccines-idUSL1N2LV0NY[/url]

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5535214]blah blah blah...[/QUOTE]All you did was again demonstrate your inability to read, and your proclivity for redundancy over and over. Why do you keep repeating something that I stated in my original post (that vaccines have shown symptomatic effectivness)? Are you daft? You've spent pages and pages on this, even though I made this point originally and have stated it over and over. You act like you're proving something with this, when it's been acknowledged all along. I don't necessarily agree with all the stats and sources you've used to go along with that, but that's besides the point. How does this relate to your selfishness argument? It's my life, and I can make my own decisions about it. How does that impact you or others?

The only basis for your selfishness argument, and likewise your argument for ending the pandemic and restricting others freedoms, is the prevention of spread of the disease to others. To this, you've provided nothing, and did so again just now even after being explicitly asked, because you have nothing. Instead you tried to pivot once again to the symptomatic effectiveness. And that relates how? Again, that's a personal risk assessment every American should be entitled to make for themselves.

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5535214]At this point the role of the vaccine is to reduce deaths, not contain its spread.[/QUOTE]

Ah, so we in fact agree, and this blows apart your selfishness argument and the basis for any vaccine mandates. In that case, I don't know what you've been rambling on about for pages, because if you'd bothered to read what I said, this was my point all along. I also happen to believe the vaccine doesn't make sense for me and for many other people if a proper risk analysis were done, but that's another argument for another day.

Regarding Ivermectin, Merck is far from the only manufacturer of Ivermectin you moron. Again, you really need to educate yourself before you spout off. Ivermectin is a long off-patent drug, is very cheap, and no one is going to get rich off Ivermectin. Never claimed Ivermectin was a panacea, because I don't make ridiculous, unfounded, exaggerated claims like you do. I do believe it can be an effective treatment for Covid, as dozens of studies have demonstrated.

Regarding the CDC, I do question a lot of information and data coming from there, including the VAERS data, which I think is vastly UNDERreported. See how that works?

I see Biden is trying to force the vaccines for Federal employees using the twisted logic to try and deflect and salvage his plummeting approval ratings. I think that's a bad gamble, and it's going to have the opposite effect. Fuck Joe Biden!

[QUOTE=TheRabbit;5535214]Once again the official data from the CDC is very clear. 95%+ of deaths are from unvaccinated, despite them being just 47% of the population and only 18% of the elderly population that is most vulnerable.[/QUOTE]Here's a real question. Is that 95%+ counted from the beginning of this whole shit show or just since the vaccine was released? I'm playing devils advocate here because I know how either side will skew the numbers to support their argument. I doubt the real numbers are even available without some dipshit adjusting them.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5535243]All you did was again demonstrate your inability to read, and your proclivity for redundancy over and over. Why do you keep repeating something that I stated in my original post (that vaccines have shown symptomatic effectivness)? Are you daft? You've spent pages and pages on this, even though I made this point originally and have stated it over and over. You act like you're proving something with this, when it's been acknowledged all along. I don't necessarily agree with all the stats and sources you've used to go along with that, but that's besides the point. How does this relate to your selfishness argument? It's my life, and I can make my own decisions about it. How does that impact you or others?

The only basis for your selfishness argument, and likewise your argument for ending the pandemic and restricting others freedoms, is the prevention of spread of the disease to others. To this, you've provided nothing, and did so again just now even after being explicitly asked, because you have nothing. Instead you tried to pivot once again to the symptomatic effectiveness. And that relates how? Again, that's a personal risk assessment every American should be entitled to make for themselves.



Ah, so we in fact agree, and this blows apart your selfishness argument and the basis for any vaccine mandates. In that case, I don't know what you've been rambling on about for pages, because if you'd bothered to read what I said, this was my point all along. I also happen to believe the vaccine doesn't make sense for me and for many other people if a proper risk analysis were done, but that's another argument for another day.
[/QUOTE]The vaccine massively reduces deaths, hospitalization rates, and permanent debilitation among all age groups, not just elderly. With no substantiated downsides. Cost-benefit analysis still favors all age groups doing so.

The vaccine is unable to reduce spread adequately because a large proportion of the population is not vaccinated and resists vaccination steadfastly. I am willing to accept that it is possible, albeit unproven, that a population which rapidly and fully vaccinated would still be unable to contain it due to its virulence and mutation rate. However most indications are to me that places like Gibraltar that fully vaccinate can drop cases to zero and keep them at zero so long as they do not interact with unvaccinated populations that serve as reservoirs for the disease. Unfortunately they do, and due to resistance to vaccination, that will likely remain the case indefinitely.

I can accept that we've failed. But it was a failure of action not a failure of inherent futility. Vaccines prevent spread and ideally extinguish a disease entirely by granting herd immunity. If we cannot achieve herd immunity levels of vaccination for a given disease before it mutates past the vaccination, then the ability of vaccines to preclude spread is inherently limited.

That said most experts say the vaccines reduce spread, and the data strongly suggests the same. The death rates of vaccinated are way down, but the overall deaths per cases ratio is not all that changed from previous waves. That implies either that Delta is more deadly, or that it isn't just most deaths but also most cases that are unvaccinated. Probably a little bit of both. Unfortunately getting good substantive data on breakthrough cases rather than just breakthrough hospitalizations / deaths has proven difficult. That said as I've noted before there are plenty of figures that have come up saying things like "80% of new cases are unvaccinated" or "vaccine less effective against Delta but still significantly reduces spread".

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5535243]Regarding Ivermectin, Merck is far from the only manufacturer of Ivermectin you moron. Again, you really need to educate yourself before you spout off. Ivermectin is a long off-patent drug, is very cheap, and no one is going to get rich off Ivermectin. Never claimed Ivermectin was a panacea, because I don't make ridiculous, unfounded, exaggerated claims like you do. I do believe it can be an effective treatment for Covid, as dozens of studies have demonstrated.[/QUOTE]
The experts beg to disagree with your claims. I think they know more about the scientific method than you do. Or honestly just the people on twitter bragging about shitting out their intestinal lining as their body desperately tries to purge itself of nerve agent. There are promising options out there in the works like this,
[url]https://m.jpost.com/health-science/covid-90-percent-of-patients-treated-with-new-israeli-drug-discharged-in-5-days-675961[/url]

but it takes time and research to confirm. Ivermectin is the same as hydroxychloroquine, something scientists did legitimately consider, but were largely unimpressed with the results and moved on.

In any case its pointless because no product used to treat symptomatic Covid-19 will prevent the spread of Covid-19, and as noted before the vaccine is already a safe effective way of reducing mortality of Covid-19 that can potentially reduce spread. Having a medication that can treat breakthrough cases would be a useful tool, but getting people vaccinated is far more useful overall.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5535243]Regarding the CDC, I do question a lot of information and data coming from there, including the VAERS data, which I think is vastly UNDERreported. See how that works?[/QUOTE]
Yes you disregard data that disagrees with you and accept data that agrees with you, come up with interpretations of data that don't align with official reports, and show no regard for things like the credibility of a source except as another cudgel for your viewpoint.

More broadly speaking there is a pretty simple test for conspiracy theories like "all world governments and credentialed experts claim treatment A works with no side effects and treatment B doesn't work while having side effects, but actually its the reverse" which is "what are rich people doing?". The answer is that outside of hard-right partisans and wacky celebrities, they're getting vaccinations, and they're not getting ivermectin. In some cases even the partisans and celebrities do. Trump got vaccinated as soon as possible Abbott went and got his booster shot.

In fact GOP governors by and large publicly endorse vaccination then try to blame non-white people for low vaccination rates... they resist lockdowns, social distancing, and masks in part because I think they're hoping to have their cake and eat it too. They hope that the vaccinations will stop Covid-19, or at least stop the influx of deaths, while still allowing them to throw red meat at the base by demolishing measures meant to reduce spread, which is irrelevant if Covid-19 is made extinct or harmless. Such hasn't panned out for them so far. The first wave of Covid-19 after vaccinations became wildly available is the first one overwhelmingly centered on GOP turf, both in terms of cases and deaths.

[QUOTE=ILuvEmall;5535243]I see Biden is trying to force the vaccines for Federal employees using the twisted logic to try and deflect and salvage his plummeting approval ratings. I think that's a bad gamble, and it's going to have the opposite effect. Fuck Joe Biden![/QUOTE]
Biden was always planning on doing so, approval ratings or not.