"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=JohnGSmith;2097939]I've used this tactic quite a few times. But the offer isn't total BS, so I feel I don't lose any integrity points, LOL. I basically say we could occasionally go up on shopping trips out of town and other fun when schedules line-up nicely and etc. While the offer is sincere, the truth is 90% of the girls I talk to never last long enough to go on those type of trips or we simply don't have the personality chemistry to withstand a long car ride and hang out for hours. But for 70% of them it's a very nice carrot early on and makes them feel there's more to gain than just the cash allowance. With some of the short-term SBs / Booty calls, it helps to reduce them trying to squeeze every penny out of you in the initial negotiations.[/QUOTE]Yes, I should probably clarify that it's not a good idea to go around making big promises with early intentions of breaking them. It's just good to be able to dial in to whatever really motivates a girl (and for a lot of them it's to have a shopping daddy, for some of them its a travel daddy, etc) and use that to your advantage. I'm actually very straightforward about what I'm looking for and what's possible in my profile on SD sites. The times that I dangled the shopping carrot, it was usually to mitigate a situation where I had already spent some money wining and dining a civvy, yet saw things headed toward a no-payback situation. I've never told an SB I would take her shopping or traveling and then let her down.

If you're the type that actually does like going shopping with women, it's really an extra card you can play to your advantage. Yes sometimes lingerie peekaboo shows or sexy clothes with a *new* girl can be fun (key word being new), but the shopping should always be a reward *for something she's already done*, it should never be the dangling carrot to motivate her toward good sexual performance, because it is essentially giving her a bag of carrots and letting her eat half of them all at once -- she won't be as hungry for a while. What's more, her other boyfriends will also be enjoying her in the lingerie you paid for whether you realize it or not.

For me, actually going shopping with them is something I might do if I didn't already have a GF (thus didn't care about being spotted in places like malls), did it as a reward for past performance, and knew the girl was someone I really wanted to keep around. Just remember the act of going shopping with them alone is a gift. My current girlfriend loves it if I go to the mall with her (which I avoid like the plague), even though its her own credit card that comes out when its time to pay. She is just thrilled to have me present at all. It's almost like a status symbol for them to have a man willing to go in these stores with them and wait around.

The one thing I would say, if you are the type that likes to take them shopping, know your girl quite well before you do, because there is always the chance that she will try to go nuts with the spree (remember shopping is kind of like a gambling addiction for some of them, and they may not be able to control themselves). What you don't want is for her to come away from the shopping event feeling disappointed about her net bounty from the expedition, because if she does, the shopping has done more harm than good.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098233]
I need advise on what to offer. I'm spending about $500-$700 per session right now when you include $300 for the girl, travel, hotel and dinner and drinks. Are there really an abundance of girls on SA that will meet dinner and $200?

[/QUOTE]Everything Fred said was true. I live in a large urban area where there are a LOT of girls from a lower socioeconomic status who are looking for a little help. I have generally tried to stick to HG's rule of thumb of offering $ per meet and waling away if they are not interested. I have pretty good success (though not as good as his) and generally the girls are 7 or 8. I have had a lot of turn-downs or non-responses, too. I tend to go for white girls, so that probably hurts some as in general they either can or think they can command a little more. When I go after girls who are students at the local party school my success ratio drops, because those girls tend to be a little smarter and also are generally from a better situation in life. My response rate from that crowd is lower even when I don't specify an offer right off the bat. I believe that if I went to $$ as a standard offer I would have more girls than I could possibly meet up with. This summer I have some free time on my hands, a little extra sugar budget, and a project coming up later in the year that will probably sideline me for four months, so I am thinking about going with a $$ offer, but only hunting a ten (or close to it). Of course I will keep my 500 a month regular and continue to fish in the $ waters, too.

Bottom line is that in your area there should be a deep enough pool that you could reduce your cost by quite a bit. The tradeoff will be more turn-downs and more work for you. It all comes down to what is most important to you, how much time you have, and what your sugar budget is.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098233]
I need advise on what to offer. I'm spending about $500-$700 per session right now when you include $300 for the girl, travel, hotel and dinner and drinks. Are there really an abundance of girls on SA that will meet dinner and $200?
[/QUOTE]A lot of what you'll pay depends on the girl. I tend to go for the stunners. They need to be at or above the level of looks of a typical dancer at a high-end club to be SB material, to me. I could get higher quantity if I made some sacrifices, but since my annual SB season is short, I tend to schedule as much quality poon into that window of opportunity as I can.

I actually don't offer anything up front, I give them a gift based on overall performance / attitude etc. The few times I've discussed money up front, the types of girls I go for tend to blurt out prices in the 1 k-2 k range which is absurdity to me. The general target I have in my mind to give the girl is $200. My actual dates almost always cost me more than that because of the hotel, and the fact that I like making a date of it complete with dinner / drinks so my actual per session cost including travel is probably close to what you've mentioned, it's just hard to calculate because I sometimes consume more than half the cost of dinner or drinks, and a lot of times the travel is fixed overhead (I was already going to travel with or without the girl so I can't really put the cost of hotel on her in many cases, but expenditure is expenditure).

The most I paid was $500 for a perfect 10 stunner, all-nighter no holds barred dream date. She never asked for a dime I just gave her that right before she went home the next day (she didn't open the envelope until after she left).

I have been trying SD4 M and one thing I've noticed is a lot more scams than on SA. I just had a woman who lives in Ghana want to IM on yahoo, in an obvious phishing scheme. I also have a "Ukrainian girl" whose photos put Megan Fox to shame emailing me. If I thought there was a 50% chance she was for real I would be on the next flight.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2098366]A lot of what you'll pay depends on the girl. I tend to go for the stunners. They need to be at or above the level of looks of a typical dancer at a high-end club to be SB material, to me. I could get higher quantity if I made some sacrifices, but since my annual SB season is short, I tend to schedule as much quality poon into that window of opportunity as I can.

I actually don't offer anything up front, I give them a gift based on overall performance / attitude etc. The few times I've discussed money up front, the types of girls I go for tend to blurt out prices in the 1 k-2 k range which is absurdity to me. The general target I have in my mind to give the girl is $200. My actual dates almost always cost me more than that because of the hotel, and the fact that I like making a date of it complete with dinner / drinks so my actual per session cost including travel is probably close to what you've mentioned, it's just hard to calculate because I sometimes consume more than half the cost of dinner or drinks, and a lot of times the travel is fixed overhead (I was already going to travel with or without the girl so I can't really put the cost of hotel on her in many cases, but expenditure is expenditure).

The most I paid was $500 for a perfect 10 stunner, all-nighter no holds barred dream date. She never asked for a dime I just gave her that right before she went home the next day (she didn't open the envelope until after she left).[/QUOTE]Thanks, this is most useful information. I am assuming a successful date ends with her in your room and having sex? So do you typically pay for M&G? I know we are supposed to pay for the dinner, drinks etc, but do you offer an allowance then, just for them having come out? I recently started putting in my stock email (that I send out after I tell them I want to be upfront) that I do not pay for M&G as the first girl I met on SA, we met for drinks and I dropped $300 on her for an hour of drinks. Then never heard from her. To me, the arrangement is formed when she can and is willing to sleep with me. And I'm upfront about that now. I do not imply I am paying for sex. (which I am NOT) I just let them know, this is when things are taken to the "next level" and when payments begin, because she is showing me she accepts me and wants to play like I'm her boyfriend, etc. I refuse to see any girl who wants payment for meeting. Fuck that!

To me, if your some small town girl, where every job is $7.25 an hour if you can even get one and some decent looking guy, mid 40's offers you $200 to spend a day or a night together and you enjoy sex anyhow, that's fair. But you are right, many of these girls think they will be swept off their feet with fairly tale sums of cash. It does happen, but not to many of them. So for this reason, I have found some of the girls who have been at it a while, tend to have lower expectations. The newbies, still have the "dreamer" mentality and think rich daddy will come along and offer them $15,000 to look at their pussy. LOL. I've ran into a few of those and politely set them straight and wish them luck with their endeavors.

I'm taking back my offers of $500 for overnighters and keeping it at $300 whether she spends the night, or has 3-5 hours of FC time. If she is unwilling, or unsure on sex, well, then she got drinks and maybe dinner. I am a little leery of some of the girls who are willing to go straight to a hotel for sex. I think many of these are just working girls trying this game and I'm not into that. Sure, I P4 P, but I do this as it's different and feels like I'm young and chasing pretty women. It's the thrill of the chase and nothing I've done before has compared. I do always treat these girls nicely, even if they turn out to be greedy and nasty. And I have encountered one of those thus far. I think she was doing drugs. She was texting me demanding $1200 after a BJ and an hour meeting. She was terrible and when I told her off and explained she was going at all this the wrong way, she threatened me. I told her I was calling the police if I heard from her again and she went away. The girl was bad, bad news and scary as hell. I met her in Jersey.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098425]Thanks, this is most useful information. I am assuming a successful date ends with her in your room and having sex? So do you typically pay for M&G? I know we are supposed to pay for the dinner, drinks etc, but do you offer an allowance then, just for them having come out? [/QUOTE]To me a successful date is one that ends in a good time overall, which typically means not only good sex but a satisfying night across the board, including the whole thing ending with smiles on both our faces. I had one situation where the sex was good but conversation went sideways and she copped an attitude over something silly and stormed off in a tiff and of course she got no gift since that's the very last thing I do. We patched things up later in e-mail, so I could look at it as a good date in the sense I got free sex from a stunner, but in my mind it was not a good date since I don't enjoy arguing or any sort of negative vibes.

I could say pay I for M&G in the sense that all my M&Gs ended up with sex except for one, and even then I bought her dinner, but I never offer anything up front. The one that didnt work out at the M&G took the conversation down the negotiating path and that's the main reason it didn't work. The times that they've indicated before meeting they wanted a certain amount just for showing up I say thanks but no thanks. I only ask that they meet me, then decide from there if they are attracted enough to me to proceed. I tell them if money is the only reason they are there they should move along because I need a certain amount of genuine chemistry.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098425]Thanks, this is most useful information. [/QUOTE]Just got home and had to spend some time catching up. Much activity here in such a short time.

DirtyDeeds, I think everything said was golden advice and anything I add will just be repetitive. With that said, I'm just going to repeat.

I learned to keep the cost of the M&G down as low as possible. The first one I went to, I got too excited about the possibility of an 18 yr old and spent too much for nothing. It wasn't until the 2nd date at a much later time that we fucked, but the cpo is still very high with her because of the M&G. Following some advice from this board, I keep it to just drinks now. I understand the value of wining and dining a POT, but around here it's a numbers game and I can't afford to wine and dine all the ones that end up flaking.

I like Fred's advice of working backwards with your budget. If your financial situation allows for a total of 300/ date, subtract the cost of room and other expenses to get to the amount of sugar you can offer. Once you have a solid rotation going and you're more confident in your game, you can lower the sugar and see what you can reel in. Each one of us will differ in what it takes. Hollywoodguy's experience and location lets him maintain a waiting list with his $ offer. It's possible that where you're located, that offer will get you absolutely nothing but the desperate pros. Just keep fine tuning while you're enjoying the chase and keep thinking with the big head.

Everyone should be aware that there are pros on the SD sites. In some cases, you can spot them early on. Some make it easy by using terminology that gives them away. Others you have to do some research on. I've passed on them since I use hx for the quick hits.

Here is a sporty college girl I met a few years ago, like a month after her 18th bday. She is now a 21 year old about 5'8' 125 llb. Maybe 6.5/9/9/9. Bangin body, super friendly, excellent skills. Just reconnected. She agreed to $.7 for 2 visits a week. If I can fit them in. And she drives to me.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2098917]Here is a sporty college girl I met a few years ago, like a month after her 18th bday. She is now a 21 year old about 5'8' 125 llb. Maybe 6.5/9/9/9. Bangin body, super friendly, excellent skills. Just reconnected. She agreed to $.7 for 2 visits a week. If I can fit them in. And she drives to me.[/QUOTE]Ok, is that $700 a month, or $170 for two visits during the week? I have trouble making out the numbers when presented like that. LOL.

Either way, man I've been way overpaying. I got one on the hook right now, but she wants a traditional agreement of $2000 a month. College girl. I won't got for that, but going see if she will accept a cash infusion per visit after we meet.

Another question. Do you ever just end it with these girls by just fading off and not communicating? And do you worry that some disgruntled girl you saw, had a dinner out with, then sex at a hotel, is going to come looking for you, ever, cause you told her you were going to be a sugar daddy?

I worry about this shit. LOL Although I cover my tracks fairly well, but these days, it's easy to track people down. I know the real names, etc of all the girls I dated. And they did not necessarily intend to let me know this, I just find shit out.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098966]Ok, is that $700 a month, or $170 for two visits during the week? I have trouble making out the numbers when presented like that. LOL.

Either way, man I've been way overpaying. I got one on the hook right now, but she wants a traditional agreement of $2000 a month. College girl. I won't got for that, but going see if she will accept a cash infusion per visit after we meet.

Another question. Do you ever just end it with these girls by just fading off and not communicating? And do you worry that some disgruntled girl you saw, had a dinner out with, then sex at a hotel, is going to come looking for you, ever, cause you told her you were going to be a sugar daddy?

I worry about this shit. LOL Although I cover my tracks fairly well, but these days, it's easy to track people down. I know the real names, etc of all the girls I dated. And they did not necessarily intend to let me know this, I just find shit out.[/QUOTE]Basically 85 dollars a visit and she has to make a 50 mile RT from her place. She will make time for 2 visits a week if I can squeeze her in. She is in love with my dick. And any girl that isn't wouldn't be worth a nickel. What her live in boy friend (emphasis on the boy) doesn't know will never hurt him.

If you date enough girls you will meet some wackos. And when you pull the security away many times they will try to dig in. No different than civi dating. Actually easier because the sugar sets the boundaries. Civi dating is way too wishy washy for me. Sugar dating is inherently tilted towards the mans needs. As the number of available SB's far outweighs the number of Real SD's. In civi dating there are far more available young good looking guys for a very limited number of hot girls. I am always shocked when I see some good looking young guy with an average girl that I wouldn't date for free. But in civi dating the hot girls rule. My neighbor is a good looking in shape, drives an audi, educated guy. I want to ring his neck when I see the girls he dates. I doubt I have ever seen him with an 8 or better. Lots of 5's and 6's. We wouldnt touch those girls, and even if we did we wouldnt be seen in public with them. When I am out I get so many looks, comments and haters it's ridiculous.

And I doubt that most sugar daddies are hotter looking than thier dates. I'm certainly not.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;2098974]
If you date enough girls you will meet some wackos. And when you pull the security away many times they will try to dig in. No different than civi dating. Actually easier because the sugar sets the boundaries. Civi dating is way too wishy washy for me. Sugar dating is inherently misogynist.[/QUOTE]I agree it's much like civy dating but with less hassle due to boundaries created by money (that's what I like about it, what makes it so addictive). But I really don't see it as misogynistic at all. I see it as helping these girls on a number of levels: some of them are going to school or paying off student loans, so I'm helping educate society, sort of. Some of them are single moms, so I'm helping provide for their kid. A surprising number of girls I meet have simply found themselves with 2 or 3 dogs and a constant flood of vet bills (nobody told them the average dog will cost around 40 grand in care if during their lifetime), which works also because I like animals so helping with vet bills sounds good to me too.

They say the number of girls walking the streets for money has diminished tremendously across the nation as a result of the Internet and what it's done for providers (given them a much safer way to operate, both from legal risk, pimps / drugs etc), so in the case of some of these girls that are borderline escorts or would-be pros, turning them into SBs actually helps keep them away from more dangerous options and activities.

I genuinely love women. It doesn't mean I will put up with crap from one who tries to give it to me, and it doesn't stop me from trying to maximize what I get out of my dates and pay them as little as possible, but my actions don't mean I dislike them or look down on them because they are women. Sometimes I do look down on them because they've got an attitude issue or they attempt to match wits with me when they aren't even close to being experienced enough in life to do so, but certainly not because they're female.

[QUOTE=JeezLizard;2098991]I agree it's much like civy dating but with less hassle due to boundaries created by money (that's what I like about it, what makes it so addictive). But I really don't see it as misogynistic at all. I see it as helping these girls on a number of levels: some of them are going to school or paying off student loans, so I'm helping educate society, sort of. Some of them are single moms, so I'm helping provide for their kid. A surprising number of girls I meet have simply found themselves with 2 or 3 dogs and a constant flood of vet bills (nobody told them the average dog will cost around 40 grand in care if during their lifetime), which works also because I like animals so helping with vet bills sounds good to me too.

They say the number of girls walking the streets for money has diminished tremendously across the nation as a result of the Internet and what it's done for providers (given them a much safer way to operate, both from legal risk, pimps / drugs etc), so in the case of some of these girls that are borderline escorts or would-be pros, turning them into SBs actually helps keep them away from more dangerous options and activities.

I genuinely love women. It doesn't mean I will put up with crap from one who tries to give it to me, and it doesn't stop me from trying to maximize what I get out of my dates and pay them as little as possible, but my actions don't mean I dislike them or look down on them because they are women. Sometimes I do look down on them because they've got an attitude issue or they attempt to match wits with me when they aren't even close to being experienced enough in life to do so, but certainly not because they're female.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I edited that part. because my definition of that word is just that men rule. The true dictionary definition is woman hater. But in our politically correct world its any guy that doesn't toe the extreme feminist line. SB's do have the power to walk away. And then woe is us, as we will then be stuck interviewing a bunch hot young girls to replace the one that left. Things could be worse.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;2098966]Ok, is that $700 a month, or $170 for two visits during the week? I have trouble making out the numbers when presented like that. LOL.

Either way, man I've been way overpaying. I got one on the hook right now, but she wants a traditional agreement of $2000 a month. College girl. I won't got for that, but going see if she will accept a cash infusion per visit after we meet.

Another question. Do you ever just end it with these girls by just fading off and not communicating? And do you worry that some disgruntled girl you saw, had a dinner out with, then sex at a hotel, is going to come looking for you, ever, cause you told her you were going to be a sugar daddy?

I worry about this shit. LOL Although I cover my tracks fairly well, but these days, it's easy to track people down. I know the real names, etc of all the girls I dated. And they did not necessarily intend to let me know this, I just find shit out.[/QUOTE]That'd be 170. $2000/ month isn't bad. I'm assuming she'll be showing up 20 x a month though. But seriously, it's all relative. There's been recommendations to give sugar for each date and avoid the monthly lump sum. I've made agreements on a monthly but gave a fraction of that after each date. You don't want to be too ahead on the sugar. Someone compared it to hiring a contractor. You don't give all the money up front.

I've never just faded away. If things need to end, I let them know first. I've been cut off of communication though, but just moved on. If you're concerned about your privacy / safety, be cautious about the name you use, the phone number / email you give out and how close to your home base you play. I've only had one crazy but she didn't know my real name, only had a hobby related number and email. It's possible I may run into her one day, but it's a big big world.

I'm sitting here in my suite at the MC Hotel in Vegas, alone at the moment, waiting to see who blinks first with a 23 year old SB I just had a M&G dinner with. I thought things went well until towards the end of the meal when she told me that I would need to pay Her some money to help with her tuition, car payment, car insurance, Rent, and a trip to see her Mother in New York over the 4th of July. All before she would join me in my suite for a rendezvous. I told her that I wasn't planning on paying anything like what she requested until we had a chance to see if we were physically compatible. That doesn't work for her. Pay first Fck later doesn't work for me. Two positives though. First, this IS Vegas so I am sure I will be able to find some company tonight if this does go south. Second, this SB is really cute. About 5'3" very thin but fit. The opposite of my first M&G with the "linebacker", who went in the 2nd round in the NFL draft a few days ago.

[QUOTE=Rouleur;2099021]I'm sitting here in my suite at the MC Hotel in Vegas, alone at the moment, waiting to see who blinks first with a 23 year old SB I just had a M&G dinner with. I thought things went well until towards the end of the meal when she told me that I would need to pay Her some money to help with her tuition, car payment, car insurance, Rent, and a trip to see her Mother in New York over the 4th of July. All before she would join me in my suite for a rendezvous. I told her that I wasn't planning on paying anything like what she requested until we had a chance to see if we were physically compatible. That doesn't work for her. Pay first Fck later doesn't work for me. Two positives though. First, this IS Vegas so I am sure I will be able to find some company tonight if this does go south. Second, this SB is really cute. About 5'3" very thin but fit. The opposite of my first M&G with the "linebacker", who went in the 2nd round in the NFL draft a few days ago.[/QUOTE]Hit up every hot 18 to 22 year old black, mixed or latina with regular pics, no professional model pics. Just offer $$ to come straight to your room. be firm, no upsell bs, take it or leave it with a genuine smile. If you send 50 messages before you get to sleep you will have at least 5 girls ready to rock by 6 pm or sooner tomorrow. Skip the dinner and just do room service. I am really excited. Please do this so you can all tell us the day after tomorrow what bomb sex you had with a local hottie. Not a CG or BP girl.

There are girls that live there that have never even stayed on the strip. That alone can almost seal the deal.