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[QUOTE=Cienega32]Surveillence, overall, is a State required concept and it starts with the money...[/QUOTE]It's been my understanding that it was first and foremost to help correct the arithmetic challenged folks in the counting room with their 'Vegas math.' "Two for the house, one for the gubment, one for da boys in Chicago. Four for the house, two for the gubment, two for da boys..."
[QUOTE=Wastrel]So if the poor girl met half a dozen friendly helpful guys she could end up going into debt every time she did a date.[/QUOTE]
Nah - the shift boss controlled her "fate/future" and the card was her way of saying "I'm covered".
It was pretty funny when I approached the guy and asked just how the hell was I suppossed to score up in this joint!
We had another pit boss (an old numbers runner from Jersey) who would deal from time to time. Of course, prior to that, he would claim to have left something in the casino mgr's office, we would let him in, and he would accidently lock a cam off one table. That would be the table he would open upon his return.
I learned much, back then, about gaming regs. Not to be the enforcer but to know when to look away. If you don't see it - you don't know it. Of course when we would get people like TOny Pro Jr. come to play the cams would burn holes in the table and security (usually me) was instructed to be within 6 feet of junior - by his request. That was a good gig that resulted in a couple of yards falling my way everytime he played.
Of course Gaming Control was a little different as well, back then. If a customer called them to complain about a machine's payout (or lack there of), a field agent or two would come out, plunk some iron in the machine and if they got a cherry somewhere down the line the claim was dismissed with a casual "Seems to pay OK to me" and be on their way.
The best part was watching the owner play craps with house money buy-ins and cash out. Same guy would run rack of blacks to the crap table when Stupek (I threw him out once and that was a lifetime memory for me. He was a piece of shit) would play. That would be without any paperwork. One cashier explained that she the needed paperwork to complete the transaction. The owner explained that if she wanted her fuc&ing job she would get the rack on the counter now. "It's my f'ing money and if want to finish the shift you'll get it." Never saw the broad again, after that nite, nor did I hear of any repercussions of his actions.
Ahhh, the good ole days are gone.
[QUOTE=Wastrel]It's been my understanding that it was first and foremost to help correct the arithmetic challenged folks in the counting room with their 'Vegas math.' "Two for the house, one for the gubment, one for da boys in Chicago. Four for the house, two for the gubment, two for da boys..."[/QUOTE]
All they were doing was trying to reduce that heavy burden of paperwork for the accounting department. That's all. I can see their point. Why wait for the process - just send it now.
Sadly, the fine State of Nevada didn't see it that way. They didn't care for the back doors in the count rooms either. Fussy bastards...
Wastrel,
Sorry I won't be snotty this time. :-) Thanks for the interesting link and snippets. Hadn't heard about the Raymer thing. All duly noted. But since you've brought it up, I would point out that the Palms incident and all of the other stories you cite involved people who at some point if not during the entire crime were outside their vehicle. My #1 rule of mongering inside a casino parking lot is always drive into the lot with the girl in your car, never leave the vehicle, and then drive out with the girl in your car. I've never experienced a bad situation observing that rule. Occasional bad service for sure, but nothing even close to a problem with security or threat of crime. You're a smart guy, I enjoy your posts, but I can't believe you're serious in saying you feel safer parking with an SW in the most notorious LA ghetto than at a LV casino. As you indicate, everyone has their own comfort level. For myself, when I think of the volume of cars and people that file through Vegas (and AC) parking garages in the course of a year, I like my chances better one on one with a girl in a closed car in a casino lot than anywhere in the ghetto.
I guess there is something I don't understand: what is leading you to believe you are more "one on one" with her in that garage than in another alternate location you might have selected in advance? Here's a suggestion, which sounds like it is already part of your parking method if I understand it correctly: for those who like the casino garage idea, don't just walk her to the parked car on the property where you picked her up, but instead I suggest that it's worth driving away to park at another Casino garage on a different property, to reduce the likelihood of meeting her Uncle Leroy who is often nearby, in just the same way as I don't park elsewhere in town in a place too near the pickup and not of my careful choosing with any SW. If she particularly wants you to do that at that specific property, and only there, hint, hint, not a good sign. If I wanted to do it in one of those garages, I do like your rules of drive her in do it and drive her out. I'll add to that a general parking rule I have wherever I park: I don't leave my keys dangling in the ignition switch, and my other keys are not attached to it. No prize for guessing that came from some specific experience.
Wherever we choose to go we will still have fewer legal rights against stop, search, and seizure and more more legal dangers (where did that come from, it's not mine, I swear) in any motor vehicle, almost anywhere except your garage at home. My concern for provoking encounters with Casino security folks by being that outrageous in a public area on a gaming property is really not that I think they're very likely to want to see me jailed for that, though they could if the working girl is stupid as a few of them are, but is more related to the fact that I live nearby and I'm around a lot, and plan to stay that way, so perhaps that's not as relevant to some other readers of this who are occasional visitors.
Though I do agree with what I take to be your more general notion that one is more vulnerable to getting rolled on the way to the car than when in it, you are very much mistaken in stating that the instances I cite are all of people who were out of their vehicles. The very specific instance I cited was at the Bellagio, and he was shot to death in his car. I wrote that none of the recent incidents I'm aware of are included in the sample of recent news abstracts I pulled up in response to the request for a news link. Again, I'm not understanding why it would be presumed that being in your car there is better than an alternate place to be in your car. It is completely contrary to my own experience. And why the garage in particular in preference to the surface lot if you feel that a gaming property confers some kind of immunity from problems? Folks will want to believe what they want to believe, and often make decisions based on what something looks like. So be it; those illusions built the town.
But one more time, take it for what you feel it's worth: trick rolls are very common in this town, and there are several happening somewhere on the Strip right now as I write this. My safety is my responsiblity when doing something that isn't exactly legal and mixing with individuals who aren't exactly boy & girl scouts, and paying expensive prices for good looks and pretty decoration does absolutely nothing in terms of security, safety, or her performance for that matter. It gets you an appealing appearance, period.
One more suggestion: next time you're in town, stand on a pedestrian skybridge, say the one crossing Flamingo looking down towards the walkway and sitting area out in front of Bally's, and take notice of the dudes sauntering and milling around alone below with no apparent destination or interest in any of the resorts or attractions, and think about what you think they are doing there, and where they might be from. Will you believe me if I tell you that I have recognized a few from south LA as well as a similar area of Las Vegas? Probably not, so I won't tell you. I prefer a parking place more discretely under my sole control, and yes I have places selected in ghettos and elsewhere in which I have that. Low-income or visually unappealing non-residential places can in some ways be easier for locating that than "good" areas. I have been doing this for a while too, and my parking spots are not usually selected on the spur of the moment.
I don't want to foolishly try to convince you to drop something that seems to work for you, and I suspect people reading through this conversation will take the information and probably end up all over the map with differing individual decisions on this based on their personal attitudes and experiences. I was maybe about one-quarter of the way swayed by the discussion to think about whether I could make some version of the garage gig work for me, anyway. I'll look forward to more of your well written posts, and I promise not to complain if I happen to pull into the adjoining parking slot.
NRS 201.263 ?Sexual conduct? defined. ?Sexual conduct? means acts of masturbation, homosexuality, sexual intercourse or physical contact with a person?s unclothed genitals or pubic area.
Once again for the out of towners I am trying to keep informed, be careful while in sin city. You can do the deed, wherever you feel comfortable.
As far as casino parking garages, the cameras do not see everything. They have blind spots. Many areas are covered when the surveillance person "pans" the camera to that area.
Have you ever seen the news, show video of a crime? Most of the time you can't see anything, I don't know why they show them. Most video replays are shotty, not in focus, bad angles, what have you. The bad guys know this and continue to commit crimes.
I worked at a local casino(security) about two years ago and that was only two days a week (it was actually for mongering money, or waste money as I used to call it). Just in those two days, the things that was happening and at a local casino at that, was unbelievable.
I actually quit, because I got tired of the crime against people who came, and how the casino didn't do much to protect them. That goes for all of them, they do very little to protect you, its all about the bottom line.
I have seen crimes live and played back, who are these people? This guy waited at the elevator(in the garage) and as soon as the door opened, he grabbed a womans purse and got clean away(also knocked her down in the process) and nobody has a clue who this guy is.
Do you think the casino will put his picture on the news? Let's say its digital clear, I don't think so, because they don't want people to know "their" casino has that kind of activity.
One last note, look at the previous years crimes, they list hundreds of robberies, thefts, rapes, etc., do you think all of that is on the news?
Since there is 365 days in a year, That would be "news" all day to tell you all the crime "that was reported".
[QUOTE=Wastrel]If I wanted to do it in one of those garages, I do like those rules of drive her in do it and drive her out[/QUOTE]
As you said earlier, perhaps this is one on those cases in which friends will just have to agree to disagree. But I think maybe we're moving closer to something we do agree on. To clarify the point quoted above, yes you're correct in noting that the practice I follow does adhere to one of your own rules. I do NOT walk girls out to the garage and do my business there. No desire to meet Uncle Leroy or raise red flags among surveillance or garage security whose interest I might pique by walking out to my car through the casino. Instead these are always pickups I've made somewhere else on the street. The garage I select and the spot inside the garage are always of my own choosing. Once there we stay only long enough to do the deed then it's back out onto the street. That's the limitation of the practice I'm proposing is safe.
I separate that from occasions where I pick up a girl and take her back to the casino where I am staying. In that situation I think it's somewhat less likely that I'll run into her Uncle Leroy but admit there's some possibility of encountering Leroy the Stranger Opportunist. I'll certainly grant there is an element of danger in that situation -- as well as when walking her out to the car to drive back where I found her. But that's different from the more limited practice I've been focussing on. I do appreciate the valid concerns you raise about vulnerabilty to casino crime. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Mike 80]I do NOT walk girls out to the garage and do my business there. No desire to meet Uncle Leroy or raise red flags among surveillance or garage security whose interest I might pique by walking out to my car through the casino. Instead these are always pickups I've made somewhere else on the street. The garage I select and the spot inside the garage are always of my own choosing...
...I separate that from occasions where I pick up a girl and take her back to the casino where I am staying. In that situation I think it's somewhat less likely that I'll run into her Uncle Leroy but admit there's some possibility of encountering Leroy the Stranger Opportunist.[/QUOTE]I'm probably more suspicious and cautious about this stuff than the majority of guys here, and may be in danger of becoming the resident old maid always nagging to look both ways before crossing the street, but I do think there are some general principles embedded in that plan that are good to think about almost anywhere you do it.
It is much harder to pull any kind of set-up if she had no way of knowing the destination in advance and it isn't near the spot of the pickup or is inaccessible to anyone else without my permission. It's also less convenient for someone planning to do the old plain vanilla cash and dash. I only follow my own advice about 90% of the time, but having these rules in mind makes me think about what I'm doing if I'm about to make an exception. I think many of the unhappy surprise hangovers from hell in Las Vegas involve someone who comes to town with more dollars than sense and has about twelve too many free drinks and/or is hypnotized by her looks, putting their ordinary healthy skepticism into a temporary vegetative state when doing something they would never have done elsewhere, on the vague theory that if it's in Vegas reality is suspended and there can't be any of the normal consequences that would have made them think twice about doing the same thing in the same way back in Buffalo. "Clueless tourists travelling while stupid" stories serve as an entertaining local spectator sport substituting for the absence of a major professional sports franchise. The transient nature of the business in the resorts also might contribute to it, since they don't think there's much chance they'll ever run into you again.
On any one single roll of the dice I don't think these are extremely high probability events if I use the same ordinary horse sense I'd want to use anywhere else, but I do this stuff often enough that if I allow myself to get too complacent and careless it would just be a matter of time before I crapped out.
Picked up Angela at Budget Suites.
Nice girl.
Likes her crack, though.
No reliable digits.
[QUOTE=Guady1] As far as casino parking garages, the cameras do not see everything. They have blind spots. Many areas are covered when the surveillance person "pans" the camera to that area.
[/QUOTE]
And even with stationary cams, or with auto PTZ cams, the cluster is set up to give some degree of continuity from one to the next. That reduces the blind spots. With stationary cams you can eliminate blind spots all together, if not for some obstruction such as a support pillar. The frames on the monitor can be aligned to give an easy read. You enter one cam's field of view as you leave another's. Another consideration is not all cams need to be in bubbles as in the gaming areas or in a secured "mailbox". Most cams are in place as a visual deterant, like weapons used to be years ago. [i]Most[/i] cams are meant to be seen - not all.
[QUOTE=Guady1]I worked at a local casino(security) about two years ago and that was only two days a week (it was actually for mongering money, or waste money as I used to call it). Just in those two days, the things that was happening and at a local casino at that, was unbelievable.
I actually quit, because I got tired of the crime against people who came, and how the casino didn't do much to protect them. That goes for all of them, they do very little to protect you, its all about the bottom line.
I have seen crimes live and played back, who are these people? This guy waited at the elevator(in the garage) and as soon as the door opened, he grabbed a womans purse and got clean away(also knocked her down in the process) and nobody has a clue who this guy is.
Do you think the casino will put his picture on the news? Let's say its digital clear, I don't think so, because they don't want people to know "their" casino has that kind of activity.
One last note, look at the previous years crimes, they list hundreds of robberies, thefts, rapes, etc., do you think all of that is on the news?
Since there is 365 days in a year, That would be "news" all day to tell you all the crime "that was reported". [/QUOTE]
Another reason you won't see anything on the news is the fact that it's a useless endeavor. It'll mean nothing as it's only a snatch crime. Ranks up there with bucket grabs. No one really gives a crap that a $250 bucket of quarters got snatched. You're the dope for leaving them accessable. It's not a crime that earns priority, endangers the general population or has much chance of being solved.
The picture, if available, will be shared with other casino security forces, tho'. That network is also Metro accessable as they established it in the 80's with printers attached to old dial-up modems for text messages related to events ("Crime Alert Terminals" or CATs). Now if the subject appears on other events around town (or even in the same joint) commiting crimes over & over, with no real leads available, you'll see it on the news.
I've spent over 20 years in casino security (not any more) - many as Chief (No further info needs to be provided). I've worked with the huge fucking NASA type rooms and I've established smaller surveillance rooms that were well above and beyond what they call "minimum requirements" as set by Gaming COntrol. I've established patrol patterns & methods, policies & procedures that proved to be extremely effective. The biggest hole in any system, that relies on people's performance in order to work properly, is the people relied upon.
The details above are the main reason why I'm a bit outdated in the monger hobby. Lots of old-time memories with a huge void of info somewhere down the line. Sometimes it was just too hard to remain stealthy. It's an odd feeling when you go to some old Fremont Street shithole, notice some security checking you & the ho out and you realize that you recently fired the guy. Even stranger to be told you have a phone call and hear a friendly & familar voice say, "Look up to your left and smile!" Many houses consider such activities as "unbecoming" and possibly a conflict of interest to the department that you run. Better to lay low than to deal with a vengeful ex-employee or be the topic of gossip amongst "brothers in arms".
And like Wastrel, I still don't need any notoriety on the other side of the fence from various contacts and/or business relationships that have been established from that job. But I CAN tell you all a thing or two about how it works (in a pre 9-11 sense, of course).
I used to work surveillance in a large casino and I can tell you they have many blind spots. We would get calls asking if we got something on camera, and we would say out of camera range or too far to tell.
In the case of the woman getting her purse taken, that would be classified as strong arm robbery, because force was used. That is also a felony crime.
Times have changed from bucket theft. By the way, anything over $250 in value is a felony theft. The crooks have not given up because the new machines issuing tickets, as matter of fact, I think there is more theft.
With the new ticket system, you don't have to run with a heavy bucket. Just grab the ticket and go. Now, they do have a system that can void a stolen ticket, but you have to beat the crooks to the cash out booths. They cash that ticket so fast, the victim doesn't even have a chance to tell security before they can stop it.
They said on the news, Las Vegas is ranked 7th in the nation in crime. Just to let you know whats happening in this fair city.
People talk about trick rolls, they don't talk about how some girls burg. rooms after they have been with a guy. Yeah, the pimp is on them hot and heavy to make that green, so he can pay for his escalade.
These girls walk the halls, looking for open doors. Rob the guest of their valuables. If they get the attention of the guest, they just say they went into the wrong room, sorry.
The guest will believe her or hesitate long enough for her to leave the hotel safely. If a man tried that, there would be a different outcome.
The casino could care less about cw's. With the exception of feeding the high rollers, they aren't worth anything to the casino. Do you think they bring in customers? Do you think they give the casino any of that untaxed money?
They are, for the most part, a nusiance to the casino.
One last note and I am out of here. heading to the international posts. I am not on this to debate what I see and know.
Be careful who you stick, she could stick you right back. Metro used to send over photos of girls highly infected and asked sec. to watch it if they were taking any of them into custody. There is alot going on in this town.
Keep informed.
[QUOTE=Wastrel] I'll add to that a general parking rule I have wherever I park: I don't leave my keys dangling in the ignition switch, and my other keys are not attached to it. No prize for guessing that came from some specific experience..[/QUOTE]
I don't even use the Original manufacturer's key when mongering , just a cheap hard·ware store copy ; and I keep another copy hidden on board , too
Not that I've ever had a Bad Experience involving keys , but there are enough stories out there — like Wastrel's — that pre·emptive action seems adviseable
[QUOTE=Wastrel]
Wherever we choose to go we will still have fewer legal rights against stop, search, and seizure and more more legal dangers (where did that come from, it's not mine, I swear) in any motor vehicle, almost anywhere except your garage at home[/QUOTE]
A General Principle is that it's better and safer to have your Date on Private Property than in Public , where LE can just stumble up·on you at any given moment , and might very well routinely patrol public areas known to be used for these purposes
That's why I prefer places like Casino Garages or surface lots when I'm in LV ; and at home places like large apartment complex or factory parking lots ; cemeteries ; golf courses ; or the outer fringes of other private land
No matter how many other girls use the spot and how well known it is , LE doesn't generally patrol on Private Property ; and I'd rather take my chances with Security Guards then the local Police any day
Hey,
Can you move the camera talk somewhere else? I want to talk about hot b*tches.
A
[QUOTE=Guady1]I used to work surveillance in a large casino and I can tell you they have many blind spots. We would get calls asking if we got something on camera, and we would say out of camera range or too far to tell.
In the case of the woman getting her purse taken, that would be classified as strong arm robbery, because force was used. That is also a felony crime.
Times have changed from bucket theft. By the way, anything over $250 in value is a felony theft. The crooks have not given up because the new machines issuing tickets, as matter of fact, I think there is more theft.
With the new ticket system, you don't have to run with a heavy bucket. Just grab the ticket and go. Now, they do have a system that can void a stolen ticket, but you have to beat the crooks to the cash out booths. They cash that ticket so fast, the victim doesn't even have a chance to tell security before they can stop it.
They said on the news, Las Vegas is ranked 7th in the nation in crime. Just to let you know whats happening in this fair city.
People talk about trick rolls, they don't talk about how some girls burg. rooms after they have been with a guy. Yeah, the pimp is on them hot and heavy to make that green, so he can pay for his escalade.
These girls walk the halls, looking for open doors. Rob the guest of their valuables. If they get the attention of the guest, they just say they went into the wrong room, sorry.
The guest will believe her or hesitate long enough for her to leave the hotel safely. If a man tried that, there would be a different outcome.
The casino could care less about cw's. With the exception of feeding the high rollers, they aren't worth anything to the casino. Do you think they bring in customers? Do you think they give the casino any of that untaxed money?
They are, for the most part, a nusiance to the casino.
One last note and I am out of here. heading to the international posts. I am not on this to debate what I see and know.
Be careful who you stick, she could stick you right back. Metro used to send over photos of girls highly infected and asked sec. to watch it if they were taking any of them into custody. There is alot going on in this town.
Keep informed.[/QUOTE]
Gee - I hope you don't think we're debating anything. I'm only trying to enhance the available information. However - if you DO think I'm trying to debate what you see & know...
The point of whether or not a purse snatch, or a bucket grab of $250 or more is a felony, has nothing to do with my point. SHowing your knowledge and use of terminology means nothing to me as far as my point.
My point is the odds of the subject getting caught is damn near nil. No one gives a crap. If there was personal injury it'll have a better chance of being pursued and even then don't hold your breath over some skinned knees. Shit is going to happen.
A purse snatch is a purse snatch - regardless of strong-arm. No one gives a crap. After the purse is found in some garbage can, or another casino calls to trace the key and ownership, the vic is usually just glad to have their ID back. Look at the severity of the crime other than the legal definition of it. Being a felony doesn't mean shit for any reason other than the conviction.
If these victims don't know or aren't informed that the chances of the subject being caught is small, then they are living in a fantasy world. That's the real world.
I'm not a big fan of "crime stats" for Vegas. Mainly because we are a tourist town with many, many stupid tourists who leave themselves open to crime. Another reason is those stats are based on crimes reported. Many of those crimes reported come from stupid people who leave their purse next to them on the floor, are too drunk to make sure their room door is closed, forget to close their car door let alone lock it,etc,.etc.. Those are crimes commited against stupid people and they report it. It skews the numbers.
A hotel/casino cannot provide security for every guest nor can they provide it every 10 feet on every floor of the hotel. Shit is going to happen and people need to excercise some smarts when they leave the confines of their home. People need to protect themselves from themselves first.
There are some smarter ones that realized they boneheaded themselves into the situation and won't even report it. Our larceny/theft stats are a bit lower than national averages. Our GTAs are thru the roof. Most people want their cars back and the subject caught. It goes on a hot sheet and if it's found - it's found. If it's noticed - it's noticed.
For ANY security to think a manhunt should commence (not in a literal sense) because it's a felony is either living in a fantasy world or has, what I call, a Robo-Cop attitude and usually becomes a problem to the department, property and/or guests.
One needs to look closely at the severity of the crime and how it affects the real world. A purse snatch can be either unfortunate or just stupidity. A bucket grab is stupidity - either on the part of the victim for not assessing their environment and/or on the part of the casino for not addressing the potential problem to begin with. Once upon a time there weren't partitions between machine rows and it was a effortless hobby for many.
Now when you apply that potential Robo-Cop mentality to our monger world we can have a problem. "BLOWJOB!!! It's a crime!!! I have a badge!!!" Those are the guys that have long days and think that the more they fill their event log and have more IRs than everyone, then the better they are at their job. Some guys can assess the situation - others can't see the forest thru the trees. Now what to do - crime against nature, sodomy, indecent shit, pay for play? Oh my!
As far as black holes in surveillence - I didn't say that were no blind spots. I said there doesn't have to be. A casino isn't going to cam every square inch of a remote area unless that area is somewhat hot. Most will address the hole after a crime against a person. A second event in the same place could be defined as negligent and be a costly settlement. ANy area that has a reasonable amount of traffic, guest or employee, should have a solid grid, or at least minimal loss of coverage. If an individual gets lost in a zone after leaving one field of view within that zone, then that coverage is severly lacking and needs to be addressed.
But for myself - I would be leary of parking garages, tho' the Barbary used to be good 20 years ago!
Again, Guady1 - my intent wasn't to debate anything you said but to add to it. That line of work isn't black & white. There's a lot of grey area that comes from many things and one of those things can be personal judgement calls, by security, on a situation.
Like in parking garage BJs.
I leave for wonderful Vegas Friday @ 8:20 pm. I should be in town by 11:30 local time. I will be traveling the the wife, but have already told her we WILL have some "alone" time. Im looking for some last min. travel tips.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Zippy