"Sugar Babies" and "Arrangements"

[QUOTE=LazaroRosales;5720837]She is in fact legit, just not my cup of tea. Let me start off by saying that she's not the most reliable person out there, we agreed to meet at a coffee shop at 3 pm and she ended up showing up at 5. I think another member said he got stood up. I was really close to work so it was not an issue for me, at that point I wanted to see how she looked in person so I simply drove there once she got there. This alone could be a deal breaker for some.

She doesn't have a car and Ubers to places. I couldn't really tell by the clothes she was wearing how her body looked since they were somewhat baggy, to me she seemed a lot skinnier than in the photos, also her photos are highly filtered.

She's not bad looking, just not my type of body. No ass and no titties. Just a very skinny girl, and once she started talking I could tell she was on something, just something seemed off in her way of talking. Her clothes and hair were also kinda dirty which to me is always a big turnoff. Once I saw her and we talked for a bit I knew I wasn't going to spend more then $2, and that was going to be with me being extra generous. To this point she hadn't mentioned an allowance, which was a good sign. I was still curious enough that was willing to give her a go.

She hoped in my car and the plan was to go to a hotel and bang for a couple of hours, I was planning on handing her 200, but then she mention she wanted an allowance of 500 ppm. After she saw my reaction, she said she would take 400. I wasn't going to do that of course, so I told her I would think about it on my way to the hotel. At this point I knew this wasn't going to happen and I was turned off anyways due to the reasons above; I didn't even bother countering her offer, made up an excuse, and told her I could pick her up tomorrow from her place and go on a second date when I had more time. She seemed okay with it and I dropped her off at her place.

The next day, I texted her out of curiosity and offered her 200. She said she wouldn't take anything less than 300 (some guy said his meet up was 250) and we never spoke again. Perhaps under different circumstances I would've agreed to 300. If she had dressed differently, worn some makeup up, and bothered to shower on our first meet up, I would've gotten a different impression of her.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, just thought I'd share my experience with her. Let us know your experience if you end up seeing her.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the excellent review LR! I had been in contact with her a few weeks ago, but my Spidey senses were tingling that something was off. Not like she was LEO or anything, just didn't feel right. Glad I never took the plunge, thanks for the validation.

[QUOTE=LazaroRosales;5720837]She is in fact legit, just not my cup of tea. Let me start off by saying that she's not the most reliable person out there, we agreed to meet at a coffee shop at 3 pm and she ended up showing up at 5. I think another member said he got stood up. I was really close to work so it was not an issue for me, at that point I wanted to see how she looked in person so I simply drove there once she got there. This alone could be a deal breaker for some.

She doesn't have a car and Ubers to places. I couldn't really tell by the clothes she was wearing how her body looked since they were somewhat baggy, to me she seemed a lot skinnier than in the photos, also her photos are highly filtered.

She's not bad looking, just not my type of body. No ass and no titties. Just a very skinny girl, and once she started talking I could tell she was on something, just something seemed off in her way of talking. Her clothes and hair were also kinda dirty which to me is always a big turnoff. Once I saw her and we talked for a bit I knew I wasn't going to spend more then $2, and that was going to be with me being extra generous. To this point she hadn't mentioned an allowance, which was a good sign. I was still curious enough that was willing to give her a go.

She hoped in my car and the plan was to go to a hotel and bang for a couple of hours, I was planning on handing her 200, but then she mention she wanted an allowance of 500 ppm. After she saw my reaction, she said she would take 400. I wasn't going to do that of course, so I told her I would think about it on my way to the hotel. At this point I knew this wasn't going to happen and I was turned off anyways due to the reasons above; I didn't even bother countering her offer, made up an excuse, and told her I could pick her up tomorrow from her place and go on a second date when I had more time. She seemed okay with it and I dropped her off at her place.

The next day, I texted her out of curiosity and offered her 200. She said she wouldn't take anything less than 300 (some guy said his meet up was 250) and we never spoke again. Perhaps under different circumstances I would've agreed to 300. If she had dressed differently, worn some makeup up, and bothered to shower on our first meet up, I would've gotten a different impression of her.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, just thought I'd share my experience with her. Let us know your experience if you end up seeing her.[/QUOTE]Let's just say there was a smell. Not a "mayo sitting out in the sun smell" She smells like a sharpie. She does not feel comfortable with BBFS.

BustyAshley is a fake. Played dumb, said shew as "new to all of this". Also said she sold pics, but was game to meet in person. Switched to text quickly, and as soon as I asked for a verification pic, she blocked me on SA and ghosted me. Unfortunately she blocked me to quickly before I could get her profile link. If someone would care to add it, please do.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5721969]BustyAshley is a fake. Played dumb, said shew as "new to all of this". Also said she sold pics, but was game to meet in person. Switched to text quickly, and as soon as I asked for a verification pic, she blocked me on SA and ghosted me. Unfortunately she blocked me to quickly before I could get her profile link. If someone would care to add it, please do.[/QUOTE][URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/a65257d5-d1eb-4181-bd0f-a4889c0fe003[/URL]

[QUOTE=Rican2323;5717910]I was wondering, how many of you guys on here do ppm vs. A weekly allowance? Also what's your rating on quality of SBs from ppm to weekly allowance?[/QUOTE]I think most of us do ppm, and 200-250 seems most common, from the guys who post here.

I've only gone 300 or higher, ony three times. 300,400, and a 400. And the two 400's were super hot blondes in their early 20's.

I can see how weekly allowance could potentially work but I don't just repeat enough for that.. And also I'm older, and not like I'm going to be hitting it 2x or 3x a week. If I did find a SB that I was enamored with, I still can't see doing her more than a couple of times a month...maybe three, but I still like variety mixed in there.

[QUOTE=DudeNextDoor;5718685]I sent an intro message and said I'd love to chat some time. Her response: "$800 ppm".

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/8531c461-2a22-40d1-85f2-7b4fa28c95ca[/URL][/QUOTE]First response from her 800 ppm. Geez she must be thinking it's a numbers game.

[QUOTE=Plisknoob1;5721502]Let's just say there was a smell. Not a "mayo sitting out in the sun smell" She smells like a sharpie. She does not feel comfortable with BBFS.[/QUOTE]She is legit. I have seen her couple of weeks ago. I think I did 250 or so. She met me directly at a hotel and was stoned. She is very skinny and submissive and has a good body. If you are looking for someone to just f*ck, I would do her otherwise wouldn't bother. She doesn't like BBBJ but I insisted so was fine. YMMV though. I think she is desperate now and keeping texting me if I can see her. I am sure she would do 200 if we do a hard bargain.

[QUOTE=Rican2323;5717910]I was wondering, how many of you guys on here do ppm vs. A weekly allowance? Also what's your rating on quality of SBs from ppm to weekly allowance?[/QUOTE]I think the quality improves after multiple visits whether its ppm or allowance.

When I was SBing it was always PPM except for the blonde MILF I posted under greatest hits thread. She was ppm first but one week we met so many times that we just switched to weekly.

It worked out because she was a stay at home mom, so any time in the morning, Monday trough Friday, I could text her and I'd be balls deep in half an hour. Anything other than a situation like that I'd just ppm.

[QUOTE=SugarDaddio;5720113]Any new information on Blizzardbaby317 out there?

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/de7b45f0-fdb3-427c-a5ce-c57bb8a817e0[/URL]

Any updated input would be appreciated.

SD.[/QUOTE]I talked to her recently too. She said "I'm not getting intimate for less then*350-400".

And she is ok with BBBJ, but has to be CFS.

Body looks good in the pics, but someone said she has no tits, so that is a big downside for me. Plus I don't do 400 unless she is really my type and probably BFS.

So not for me, but she wasn't especially rude, so maybe some of you guys will enjoy.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/535ad43a-c1ba-47e3-8aff-473c07bae51d[/URL]

This one wants a gift just to meet up for dinner.

[QUOTE=PeteAppleSeed;5723401]I think the quality improves after multiple visits whether its ppm or allowance.[/QUOTE]That is rarely true for me, unless the first time is absolutely terrible. New pussy is almost always the best. Then the 2nd time is probably 80% of that, and then 60% on the third. Then it kind of levels off there, and maybe some better or worse sessions, but never remotely approaches that first time.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/messages/sent/1e15bace-dc8e-48f4-befc-896fcc46fa62[/URL]

This one wants $400 and can't host.

First message to me was "$800 ppm". I have no interest in negotiating someone down that much.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/8531c461-2a22-40d1-85f2-7b4fa28c95ca[/URL]

I'm having all kinds of problems trying to get an account set up. I've been a member for years and have had several accounts, usually a couple open at a time. I've always used prepaid Visa cards, usually Vanilla, and never had a problem as recently as last year.

I signed up yesterday and my account was suspended immediately after I tried to upgrade to premium. I looked through the threads and decided to try a different card and register it as suggested. Used the same name, address, phone, etc. It looked like it was working and then immediately suspended. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be charging my card. I also went and deleted my other accounts.

What's going on? I'm on a VPN since I'm at work. Does that make a difference?

[QUOTE=PeterJohnson;5723610]I talked to her recently too. She said "I'm not getting intimate for less then*350-400".

And she is ok with BBBJ, but has to be CFS.

Body looks good in the pics, but someone said she has no tits, so that is a big downside for me. Plus I don't do 400 unless she is really my type and probably BFS.

So not for me, but she wasn't especially rude, so maybe some of you guys will enjoy.[/QUOTE]From about a year ago.

[QUOTE=Harley32;5725155]I'm having all kinds of problems trying to get an account set up. I've been a member for years and have had several accounts, usually a couple open at a time. I've always used prepaid Visa cards, usually Vanilla, and never had a problem as recently as last year.

I signed up yesterday and my account was suspended immediately after I tried to upgrade to premium. I looked through the threads and decided to try a different card and register it as suggested. Used the same name, address, phone, etc. It looked like it was working and then immediately suspended. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be charging my card. I also went and deleted my other accounts.

What's going on? I'm on a VPN since I'm at work. Does that make a difference?[/QUOTE]What about signing up with my phone? I've obviously used it in the past to access the site, both on cell mode and using Wifi with and without a VPN.

[QUOTE=Harley32;5725155]I'm having all kinds of problems trying to get an account set up. I've been a member for years and have had several accounts, usually a couple open at a time. I've always used prepaid Visa cards, usually Vanilla, and never had a problem as recently as last year.

I signed up yesterday and my account was suspended immediately after I tried to upgrade to premium. I looked through the threads and decided to try a different card and register it as suggested. Used the same name, address, phone, etc. It looked like it was working and then immediately suspended. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be charging my card. I also went and deleted my other accounts.

What's going on? I'm on a VPN since I'm at work. Does that make a difference?[/QUOTE]I posted about this extensively in late Dec, so you may want to look through my old posts.

I finally got it to work and used McDonalds public wifi. VPN might make a difference, or it might not. There is no way to tell, unless you don't use VPN and then you know it's not a factor.

But once I got on there with a Premium Acct, I can login from whatever VPN IP address that I want and doesn't seem to affect anything. It can be Atlanta or Zurich or whatever. I also enabled 2 FA on my acct and use Google Authenticator and that makes for a faster login.

[QUOTE=PeterJohnson;5725528]I posted about this extensively in late Dec, so you may want to look through my old posts.

I finally got it to work and used McDonalds public wifi. VPN might make a difference, or it might not. There is no way to tell, unless you don't use VPN and then you know it's not a factor.

But once I got on there with a Premium Acct, I can login from whatever VPN IP address that I want and doesn't seem to affect anything. It can be Atlanta or Zurich or whatever. I also enabled 2 FA on my acct and use Google Authenticator and that makes for a faster login.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I read that thread. That's where I saw to register the card. Anyway, I just got back from McDonalds. I used their wifi w / o my VPN and when I upgraded to Premium it logged me out. When I tried to log back on, it said my account was suspended. That's my 4th attempt to get them to take my cash. It's maddening.

So this one set off a few red flags, I'd advise to avoid just in case. She talks a nice talk, says all the right things, but there were a few things that didn't add up. I got a pic verification, so I think she is the girl in the pics. She wouldn't text, only whatsapp, which can be a red flag a lot of the time. But the whatsapp she messaged me from had a real number, so I Googled it. She had said she was from Thomaston, and the phone number came back with a dudes name from Thomaston. I quick Google Foo on him, and I got a hit on Facebook of a dude who looked a little thugish. Still, not 100% proof, but another red flag. She also told me she was at work, yet her pic she sent to verify was from a car. And lastly, she said I would have to come to her, she doesn't come to me. Another red flag. My gut feeling is either she has a handler, but it feels too shady to proceed.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4f8316b4-2dd9-4ba1-b739-926c923a666b[/URL]

[QUOTE=Harley32;5725682]Yeah, I read that thread. That's where I saw to register the card. Anyway, I just got back from McDonalds. I used their wifi w / o my VPN and when I upgraded to Premium it logged me out. When I tried to log back on, it said my account was suspended. That's my 4th attempt to get them to take my cash. It's maddening.[/QUOTE]Yes it is maddening, and I went through that, for months. Are you sure you used the right kind of card. I hope they don't close that loophole in the future but worked at the end of Dec for me.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5727126]So this one set off a few red flags, I'd advise to avoid just in case. She talks a nice talk, says all the right things, but there were a few things that didn't add up. I got a pic verification, so I think she is the girl in the pics. She wouldn't text, only whatsapp, which can be a red flag a lot of the time. But the whatsapp she messaged me from had a real number, so I Googled it. She had said she was from Thomaston, and the phone number came back with a dudes name from Thomaston. I quick Google Foo on him, and I got a hit on Facebook of a dude who looked a little thugish. Still, not 100% proof, but another red flag. She also told me she was at work, yet her pic she sent to verify was from a car. And lastly, she said I would have to come to her, she doesn't come to me. Another red flag. My gut feeling is either she has a handler, but it feels too shady to proceed.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4f8316b4-2dd9-4ba1-b739-926c923a666b[/URL][/QUOTE]I'm highly skeptical of whatsapp. I stopped messaging with this same woman as soon as she said that was the only way she would communicate about details.

[QUOTE=Skboy;5725358]From about a year ago.[/QUOTE]Looks like a pretty girl, and breasts look great, or at least very good. I don't like the piercings though. And not my totally my type, but can't argue that is a nice face and body. But I want to really have them and CFS is just not worth $250 to me, in nearly all cases.

I always say go with your gut. But a couple things to consider. She's married. Phone number could be under husband's name. When I talked with her she said she was 45 min south of Atlanta (too far for me). Thomaston is about that. Wouldn't read too much into verification pic. How much time had passed between asking for pic and receiving?

But like I said. Always go with your gut.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5727126]So this one set off a few red flags, I'd advise to avoid just in case. She talks a nice talk, says all the right things, but there were a few things that didn't add up. I got a pic verification, so I think she is the girl in the pics. She wouldn't text, only whatsapp, which can be a red flag a lot of the time. But the whatsapp she messaged me from had a real number, so I Googled it. She had said she was from Thomaston, and the phone number came back with a dudes name from Thomaston. I quick Google Foo on him, and I got a hit on Facebook of a dude who looked a little thugish. Still, not 100% proof, but another red flag. She also told me she was at work, yet her pic she sent to verify was from a car. And lastly, she said I would have to come to her, she doesn't come to me. Another red flag. My gut feeling is either she has a handler, but it feels too shady to proceed.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/4f8316b4-2dd9-4ba1-b739-926c923a666b[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=CuriousInquir;5727210]I'm highly skeptical of whatsapp. I stopped messaging with this same woman as soon as she said that was the only way she would communicate about details.[/QUOTE]Whatapp is owned by Facebook and it's not trustworthy, beyond the fact that a lot of scammers use it. They are too lazy to even us something better like Session or Signal. I don't get it, but I will never use Whatsapp with anyone.

[QUOTE=DudeNextDoor;5727278]I always say go with your gut. But a couple things to consider. She's married. Phone number could be under husband's name. When I talked with her she said she was 45 min south of Atlanta (too far for me). Thomaston is about that. Wouldn't read too much into verification pic. How much time had passed between asking for pic and receiving?

But like I said. Always go with your gut.[/QUOTE]There were other things as well. She did say she was married, and lived in Thomaston. But the hit for the phone number on Facebook was for a dude that was a thug. Would it hold up in court? No. But is it common for thugs to try and scam people in this game, hell yeah. Its just not worth the risk. She also said she didn't care about the money, just give her "whatever I wanted to give". Which is another red flag. And lastly, when we did move to Whatsapp, and I told her I wasnt sure I'd be able to go to Thomaston, she said "that's ok, we will move on". "we" seemed like a slip up. And there wasnt even a discussion. She promptly blocked me on SA, but I had already grabbed the link.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm not willing to take the chance.

[QUOTE=PeterJohnson;5727205]Yes it is maddening, and I went through that, for months. Are you sure you used the right kind of card. I hope they don't close that loophole in the future but worked at the end of Dec for me.[/QUOTE]I finally got it to work. Another thread had recommended using the Epic browser. It's Chrome based but has a lot of security features. I had to turn many of those off to get the site to load properly so it may have been an issue with cookies, etc on my normal browser. I also left off adding a photo since I tend to reuse those.

This one is a pro, phone number brought up multiple hits. Seems nice enough, and has good reviews. Said she was in Alpharetta. Not really my style, I did not pursue. But if one of you wants to take a shot, have fun.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/6f165464-30d8-85a6-60a1-9d22b6d88534[/URL]

I finally got mine to work when I used the Visa gift card to pay for other things.

[QUOTE=Harley32;5725155]I'm having all kinds of problems trying to get an account set up. I've been a member for years and have had several accounts, usually a couple open at a time. I've always used prepaid Visa cards, usually Vanilla, and never had a problem as recently as last year.

I signed up yesterday and my account was suspended immediately after I tried to upgrade to premium. I looked through the threads and decided to try a different card and register it as suggested. Used the same name, address, phone, etc. It looked like it was working and then immediately suspended. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be charging my card. I also went and deleted my other accounts.

What's going on? I'm on a VPN since I'm at work. Does that make a difference?[/QUOTE]

Since this post: [URL]http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?14265-quot-Sugar-Babies-quot-and-quot-Arrangements-quot&p=5647279&viewfull=1#post5647279[/URL].

I've been wanting to see HellaExtravagant ([URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/5d42417d-ee01-491b-9ccb-1e89afad421a[/URL]) based on the review in the post above but her profile started showing Helsinki, Finland since Dec which was still active as a couple days ago.

Then I noticed yesterday this new BeautifulMind profile ([URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/53975180-ab02-49b8-bd94-8ef36c4e1587[/URL]) with some of the same pics and it looked to be the same person. I reached out and thought it might be fake / scammer but it does look to be the same person as she sent me a verification pic that matched.

She must have gotten some major GPS since going to Finland. Right off the bat she said she wanted 2-4 k monthly or 800 ppm. WTF. Obviously I'm not going to pay that. I haven't tired talking her down, but I don't see it happen when you start that far apart. I know the post I referenced the guy mentioned he might be getting a "handsome" discount but still.

Has anyone else talked to BeautifulMind / HellaExtravagant? I'm curious to what others having gotten.

[QUOTE=DArrow404;5727999]Since this post: [URL]http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?14265-quot-Sugar-Babies-quot-and-quot-Arrangements-quot&p=5647279&viewfull=1#post5647279[/URL].

I've been wanting to see HellaExtravagant ([URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/5d42417d-ee01-491b-9ccb-1e89afad421a[/URL]) based on the review in the post above but her profile started showing Helsinki, Finland since Dec which was still active as a couple days ago.

Then I noticed yesterday this new BeautifulMind profile ([URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/53975180-ab02-49b8-bd94-8ef36c4e1587[/URL]) with some of the same pics and it looked to be the same person. I reached out and thought it might be fake / scammer but it does look to be the same person as she sent me a verification pic that matched.

She must have gotten some major GPS since going to Finland. Right off the bat she said she wanted 2-4 k monthly or 800 ppm. WTF. Obviously I'm not going to pay that. I haven't tired talking her down, but I don't see it happen when you start that far apart. I know the post I referenced the guy mentioned he might be getting a "handsome" discount but still.

Has anyone else talked to BeautifulMind / HellaExtravagant? I'm curious to what others having gotten.[/QUOTE]I talked to her when she was in Finland and she said she would be back in ATL in a few weeks and she sent me both her ATL # and her # in Finland. But something about her just wasn't right for me, so I never followed up.

Fellows any intel on this baby would be appreciated. Thanks.

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/202c9717-93a1-4ae7-8f78-f2309e36a8d8[/URL]

The Perfect Baby has relocated to Florida, just an FYI.

So just a heads up on this one. A trusted friend of mine saw this chic, and said she is batshit crazy. As in will try and ruin a marriage kind of crazy. He isn't on the site, but I just wanted to give you boys a heads up!

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/b87bfada-d1de-45ff-8941-3cc5298b5957[/URL]

[QUOTE=PeterJohnson;5728063]I talked to her when she was in Finland and she said she would be back in ATL in a few weeks and she sent me both her ATL # and her # in Finland. But something about her just wasn't right for me, so I never followed up.[/QUOTE]I met with her in a quick meet and greet before her trip. Mature, intelligent woman with a lot of things going on in her life. Good personality in general, but does seems to have very high expectation. She can definitely carry a conversation and is fairly direct on what she expects. Quote similar range as discussed, quite a bit more than my budget.

[QUOTE=Shizzy6969;5728647]I met with her in a quick meet and greet before her trip. Mature, intelligent woman with a lot of things going on in her life. Good personality in general, but does seems to have very high expectation. She can definitely carry a conversation and is fairly direct on what she expects. Quote similar range as discussed, quite a bit more than my budget.[/QUOTE]Did you try countering her offer at all?

[QUOTE=DArrow404;5728738]Did you try countering her offer at all?[/QUOTE]Yep and she's generally open to that discussion. I just have a current unicorn that I rather spend more time with at the end of the day instead, and my sub expired (and she' going to finland), so I figure that's the universe telling to step back.

[QUOTE=PeterJohnson;5728063]I talked to her when she was in Finland and she said she would be back in ATL in a few weeks and she sent me both her ATL # and her # in Finland. But something about her just wasn't right for me, so I never followed up.[/QUOTE]I texted with her at the end of November. She told me she wasn't looking for ppm and only wanted an allowance. "a 4-digit allowance per month" and included "may I have a mailing address for you" in the same text. I didn't respond after that.

She continued texting daily for another week. Mainly looking for me to donate to some fundraiser, even going so far as to send me a picture of her dancing. The whole thing was weird.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5728569]So just a heads up on this one. A trusted friend of mine saw this chic, and said she is batshit crazy. As in will try and ruin a marriage kind of crazy. He isn't on the site, but I just wanted to give you boys a heads up!

[URL]https://members.seeking.com/member/b87bfada-d1de-45ff-8941-3cc5298b5957[/URL][/QUOTE]I think this is one reason I've never taken the plunge into SA / SB. Anonymity is tougher in today's world. Need to read up on some SA / SB boards and advice.

[QUOTE=MattSouth;5728923]I think this is one reason I've never taken the plunge into SA / SB. Anonymity is tougher in today's world. Need to read up on some SA / SB boards and advice.[/QUOTE]My advice is create a new Gmail account from scratch, use fake everything. From there, create a Google Voice account using that Gmail address. This gives you a totally separate identity for online. Use those accounts for texting, email, setting up accounts, etc. And of course, you have to be careful chatting that you don't give out too much info as well.

[QUOTE=SoonerFan72;5728937]My advice is create a new Gmail account from scratch, use fake everything. From there, create a Google Voice account using that Gmail address. This gives you a totally separate identity for online. Use those accounts for texting, email, setting up accounts, etc. And of course, you have to be careful chatting that you don't give out too much info as well.[/QUOTE]Agree with that. Also, you really shouldn't give out too much info before the meet and greet. Thats always a good way to filter out the crazies. If something doesn't feel right during the meet. Assume the worst.