Rants, Raves and Opinions AKA "The Octagon"

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3358932]Addicts who make the "Choice" to change and become clean deserve all the credit. It's their inner strength that made this choice and that strength carries them through the years to stay clean.[/QUOTE]I've been clean longer than most if these chicks have been alive and I'm telling you, not suggesting, not saying maybe I'm telling you 100% that if you believe this then you know nothing about addiction nor recovery.

I'm not saying your heart isn't in the right place nor that you are a bad person, just saying that you think you know something when you don't.

A2.

Please tell me you are NOT THIS stupid. Because they will con you to believing you they are serious in wanting to get clean and stab you in the back when you least expect it.

Might want to do some hardcore research on addict behavior.

That's why I am beyond choosy when it comes to this. I'm no longer fooled and I also won't partake in enabling an addict's h fix.

Now back to your regular scheduled mongering and forum posting.

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3358008]I guess mine is being a whinny ass vengeful guy regarding addict providers and yours is trolling the SB forums all over the country giving your opinions and advice as you see fit. Call me what you want, makes no difference to me. I have lost money to some addicts but it is minimal and I can afford to lose it. What you don't seem to understand is the principles I try to live by. I believe in the goodness of humanity. We humans have a long way to go in our struggle with humanity but I give people the benefit of doubt and try to trust people until they give me solid reasons not to trust them. This in itself puts me in very precarious situations within the world I have come to know, the world of addiction. Let me give you some facts to ponder as you search out your next SB.

In 2015 drug overdose was the leading cause of accidental death in the US, with 52,404 lethal drug overdoses. Compare that with other 2015 statistics of the number of people who died in car crashes at 37,757. Gun deaths, including homicides and suicides, totaled 36,252. Or consider the 58,220 US soldiers who died in Vietnam conflict where riots broke out all over the US to condemn the inhumanity of the war.

There were 2,000 Heroin overdose deaths in 2002, 8,000 in 2013, and 12,990 in 2015. That's a 549 % increase from 2002 to 2015 and a 62.3 % increase from 2013 to 2015.

Addiction has become a plague in our country especially with opioids which include heroin and fentanyl a synthetic opioid. Ohio now leads the nation in the number of opioid related deaths. Compare the 20,101 US drug overdose deaths in 2015 to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa where, between 2014 and 2016, 11,310 people died and the US spent 2. 36 billion to stop the plague. How about spending money on the plague in Ohio?

So go ahead and chastise me about my whining and vengefulness. I really don't care. I like the hobby and the pussy it provides but my principles will still influence my choices for pussy. The one thing that I do every morning is look in a mirror and say I will do my best to be as humane as possible and try to save the life of at least one more addict like I have in the past.

So how many SB lives have you saved, JH?[/QUOTE]

Post of the day. Good stuff.

I'll add this stuff requires some in depth research that few on here don't do enough of when it comes to this.

[QUOTE=Admin2;3359336]I've been clean longer than most if these chicks have been alive and I'm telling you, not suggesting, not saying maybe I'm telling you 100% that if you believe this then you know nothing about addiction nor recovery.

I'm not saying your heart isn't in the right place nor that you are a bad person, just saying that you think you know something when you don't.

A2.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=UOnlyLiveOnce;3358826]Because it's really all about you anyway. Any provider in your world who has gotten better has done so despite you, not because of you. The bottom line is you get off on controlling and manipulating addicted women so you can look like a savior.[/QUOTE]Problem is he winds up being an enabler as opposed to a savior.

[QUOTE=Serhan1978;3359348]Problem is he winds up being an enabler as opposed to a savior.[/QUOTE]The ignore list. Used it once he started dropping me PMs. FF is such a weird douche. I'll bet he has tights and a cape hanging in his closet.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3359463]The ignore list. Used it once he started dropping me PMs. FF is such a weird douche. I'll bet he has tights and a cape hanging in his closet.[/QUOTE]A girl at the center of his "attention" has told me stories that require a truckload of popcorn to get through.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3359463]The ignore list. Used it once he started dropping me PMs. FF is such a weird douche. I'll bet he has tights and a cape hanging in his closet.[/QUOTE]I was going to send you a good morning PM everyday just to say hello, because I love you so much. I sure hope someone quotes this so you can read it. Oh, wait you can read it before you log on.

[QUOTE=ItsTimeToEat;3359573]A girl at the center of his "attention" has told me stories that require a truckload of popcorn to get through.[/QUOTE]We should share stories. I can bet you I "Best" her stories any day of the week. Besides she's an H addict and they are great at telling stories, that's how they survive. I sure hope you buttered the popcorn before the two of you partook because I can guarantee you someone else did!

This dude is out of my shit.

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3360259]We should share stories. I can bet you I "Best" her stories any day of the week. Besides she's an H addict and they are great at telling stories, that's how they survive. I sure hope you buttered the popcorn before the two of you partook because I can guarantee you someone else did![/QUOTE]Snowball much?

[QUOTE=ByronDee;3357717]Good intel, I have seen my share of some of them. Keep in mind Fellas those are their list prices, some of these girls come down off their high horses with a little bit of sweet negotiation and charm. My specialty. LOL.[/QUOTE]When you tell us all about how amazing your sugar game is going (which I guess is useful or interesting to a few guys), you have never mentioned that a fair share of the girls are pro SB. I. E. Basically just hookers. Not even broadly hooker-like (per A2's frustration). But actually hookers with lots of clients who are working a different angle. Not surprising (nobody talks that much bullshit when they are truly having that good of a time, because they are too busy having such a good time). But I think those guys who love your stories might have been taking you at your word.

You're like these idiot hookers on FB talking about. Repeatedly and very publicly insisting. They are in solid ride or die relationships. All the while sucking dick for money. Sure.

[QUOTE=ItsTimeToEat;3360418]Snowball much?[/QUOTE]That's fucking funny.

Agree with A2 - There was a piece about this topic on 60 minutes. They showed brain images of addicts vs. Normal people. The brain chemistry literally changes and the way signals are processed, are very different in seasoned addicts. It bypasess the logical area and goes straight to decision mode (fight or flight kinda thing but not exactly that). Thus, its not a choice at all. It's physiology that makes them helpless after a while. Its a long long road back to normal physiology and in some cases, impossible! But don't take my word for it, just google that episode for fully accurate information.





[QUOTE=Admin2;3359336]I've been clean longer than most if these chicks have been alive and I'm telling you, not suggesting, not saying maybe I'm telling you 100% that if you believe this then you know nothing about addiction nor recovery.

I'm not saying your heart isn't in the right place nor that you are a bad person, just saying that you think you know something when you don't.

A2.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ItsTimeToEat;3360418]Snowball much?[/QUOTE]On your next visit when you think "It's Time To Eat" you might find yourself as an unwilling cuckhold. She loves dancing in the rain without a raincoat with special friends, especially right after her fix. Plus you never know when the BF last had her. I suggest you bring douche with your $.

[QUOTE=ChickaAmante;3360475]Agree with A2 - There was a piece about this topic on 60 minutes. They showed brain images of addicts vs. Normal people. The brain chemistry literally changes and the way signals are processed, are very different in seasoned addicts. It bypasess the logical area and goes straight to decision mode (fight or flight kinda thing but not exactly that). Thus, its not a choice at all. It's physiology that makes them helpless after a while. Its a long long road back to normal physiology and in some cases, impossible! But don't take my word for it, just google that episode for fully accurate information.[/QUOTE]Its not one answer for all addicts. Some, in fact most addicts that finally get off their drug of choice do it overtime without treatment. But this is not for all. It is different for all. I've been involved in this area for over 40 years now and it is different. An addict knows how it affects them and so they sometimes assume its how it is with all addicts. But not so. I've seen cases from every extreme. I've seen people who engaged in drugs over long periods and never got addicted at all. Granted that is rare but I've seen it. And I've seen addicts who got addicted literally from the first use and no matter how much they tried they kept going back to the drug. They had no control. So yes, your statement about some addicts and the brain physiology can be true. But certainly not for all and most likely not for most. That same physiology can be true for any long term use of any drug. Some do and can make the "choice" to get off the drug that has them. Some addicts find this hard to believe as it isn't how it is with them so for that group of addicts, yes the "choice" or "will power" is not an option. In my 40 years in this area I have found that once again, this isn't necessarily the norm. Addicts can, and have, made the successful choice to stop doing their drug of choice on their own. It wasn't easy, but they did it. Others can not do it.

[QUOTE=ProVid;3360444]When you tell us all about how amazing your sugar game is going (which I guess is useful or interesting to a few guys), you have never mentioned that a fair share of the girls are pro SB. I. E. Basically just hookers. Not even broadly hooker-like (per A2's frustration). But actually hookers with lots of clients who are working a different angle. Not surprising (nobody talks that much bullshit when they are truly having that good of a time, because they are too busy having such a good time). But I think those guys who love your stories might have been taking you at your word.

You're like these idiot hookers on FB talking about. Repeatedly and very publicly insisting. They are in solid ride or die relationships. All the while sucking dick for money. Sure.[/QUOTE]Of course they are hookers. There's a financial transaction for pussy. Who's disputing that?

[QUOTE=Admin2;3351159]Why do people say "I'm not going to argue with you" literally while they are arguing.

It's like guys who say "No offense intended" when CLEARLY offense was intended and it's just as clear they lack the intelligence and imagination to be sarcastic.

I don't understand this.

A2.[/QUOTE]There's a great saying. [I]"[b]nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts"[/b][/I].

It's absolutely true.

[QUOTE=Admin2;3359336]I've been clean longer than most if these chicks have been alive and I'm telling you, not suggesting, not saying maybe I'm telling you 100% that if you believe this then you know nothing about addiction nor recovery.

I'm not saying your heart isn't in the right place nor that you are a bad person, just saying that you think you know something when you don't.

A2.[/QUOTE]I only know what I have heard and experienced first hand. Besides hitting rock bottom or the pain of using becoming greater than the pain of being sober, what is your experience for the reason for change?

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3360900]I only know what I have heard and experienced first hand. Besides hitting rock bottom or the pain of using becoming greater than the pain of being sober, what is your experience for the reason for change?[/QUOTE]I think it varies from person to person. Probably the best I've ever heard it put came from a guy who recognized me as an addict long before anybody else did. He said that when the pain or cost of a behavior (doesn't matter the behavior) gets greater than the benefit or pleasure of a behavior than there is room for change. He didn't say people would, he said there was room for it.

Without getting to "preachy" I personally think that there is also an element of something that some people call grace. I struggle with that because then it means that not anybody can do it and I think that anybody can so I don't really know.

I do know that it there is a big element of "want" involved. People got to want it, they got to want it bad, they got to want it more than dope but I don't think that happens on the same level as choice. It's not something that one comes to through logic nor reason, it's a visceral thing. It's emotional, it's mental, it's "spiritual" you got to have a hunger for a different life. You got to be willing to sacrifice and suffer. You got to be willing to say (again it's not really conscience, it's deeper) "I'll do what it takes," not "I'll do what I can. ".

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3360886]There's a great saying. [I]"[b]nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts"[/b][/I].
It's absolutely true. [/QUOTE]I've always found pithy sayings which ignore nuance and context in favor of comforting absolutes to be the domain of folksy idiots, but you might have a point.

Guys like blowjobs, but sometimes they like pussy. So they absolutely don't like blowjobs. Makes sense.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3360822]Of course they are hookers. There's a financial transaction for pussy. Who's disputing that?[/QUOTE]The post I quoted, was BD responding to a guy sharing intel about Pro SB, potential rinsers, etc. Making distinctions among the girls he's contacted who are not what he would consider TRUE SB (guessing). I would guess that the only people who are entertained by BD and his stories must be guys who think he's doing this with girls who aren't SB pros. When he mentions money, it is almost always a trivial afterthought. The implication is clear: They aren't fucking him because of the money alone but because BD is such a skilled player.

Regarding hookers as a useful term: On some very simplified level, the first lady and the crackwhore on the street are "hookers". But I think that definition of the word has almost zero utility when defined this way. In reality, we can easily see that there's a spectrum. Everyone might quibble over where the lines are drawn, but it largely comes down to exclusivity and the nature of the transaction. How many dicks+money she chooses to take, vs money+dicks thrown her way.

Simplifying it broadly: 12-20 dicks a day, 8-10 dicks a day, 1-4 dicks a day, or 1 single solitary dick once or twice a week. Pretty big differences. Maybe you don't care. If so, then either you see any and all of them indiscriminately, or you see none of them. To do something else would indicate that you see those distinctions as well.

The Sugar guys probably operate under the assumption that there exists this specific kind of SB: The TRUE Sugar Baby. In theory, it's a girl who is exclusively taking money and dick from one guy. A financial transaction, true, but neither party is maximizing the utility of their pussy / money. She could make more money by fucking more dudes. He could get more variety and quantity of sex by looking elsewhere. Strictly, this doesn't make economic sense. This willing limitation is what, I believe, the SD wants.

It isn't just sex and sex isn't that simple. Pretending that it is would be ignoring reality, and most likely ignoring each of our personal experience. We've all probably been with a girl who depressed our dick into flaccidity upon experiencing evidence of the sad state of her life. Or who said "hurry up" and broke our stroke and ruined the session. Or even who just weren't that into it. Some guys can fuck a hole and cum. But this MUST not be the case for most guys, most of the time because the reports on action indicate otherwise. Guys here regularly make distinctions around this all the time. Clockwatcher, GFE, PSE, Rushed, Mechanical, etc. And Sugar threads have additional distinctions.

So while not disputed directly, pretending that all transaction-based sex is the same seems pointless.

[QUOTE=ProVid;3360999]I've always found pithy sayings which ignore nuance and context in favor of comforting absolutes to be the domain of folksy idiots, but you might have a point.

Guys like blowjobs, but sometimes they like pussy. So they absolutely don't like blowjobs. Makes sense.[/QUOTE]You're pretty much a dumb ass aren't you? All covered up in nuance and context. Quotes tend to exist because they stand the test of reality and time.

For instance, "[i]ProVid is a fairly smart guy [u][b]BUT[/b][/u] no one listens to him because he's never actually fucked a girl and likes to heave his bullshit on everyone."[/i]

See how that works?

[QUOTE=ProVid;3361042]The post I quoted, was BD responding to a guy sharing intel about Pro SB, potential rinsers, etc. Making distinctions among the girls he's contacted who are not what he would consider TRUE SB (guessing). I would guess that the only people who are entertained by BD and his stories must be guys who think he's doing this with girls who aren't SB pros. When he mentions money, it is almost always a trivial afterthought. The implication is clear: They aren't fucking him because of the money alone but because BD is such a skilled player.

Regarding hookers as a useful term: On some very simplified level, the first lady and the crackwhore on the street are "hookers". But I think that definition of the word has almost zero utility when defined this way. In reality, we can easily see that there's a spectrum. Everyone might quibble over where the lines are drawn, but it largely comes down to exclusivity and the nature of the transaction. How many dicks+money she chooses to take, vs money+dicks thrown her way.

Simplifying it broadly: 12-20 dicks a day, 8-10 dicks a day, 1-4 dicks a day, or 1 single solitary dick once or twice a week. Pretty big differences. Maybe you don't care. If so, then either you see any and all of them indiscriminately, or you see none of them. To do something else would indicate that you see those distinctions as well.

The Sugar guys probably operate under the assumption that there exists this specific kind of SB: The TRUE Sugar Baby. In theory, it's a girl who is exclusively taking money and dick from one guy. A financial transaction, true, but neither party is maximizing the utility of their pussy / money. She could make more money by fucking more dudes. He could get more variety and quantity of sex by looking elsewhere. Strictly, this doesn't make economic sense. This willing limitation is what, I believe, the SD wants.

It isn't just sex and sex isn't that simple. Pretending that it is would be ignoring reality, and most likely ignoring each of our personal experience. We've all probably been with a girl who depressed our dick into flaccidity upon experiencing evidence of the sad state of her life. Or who said "hurry up" and broke our stroke and ruined the session. Or even who just weren't that into it. Some guys can fuck a hole and cum. But this MUST not be the case for most guys, most of the time because the reports on action indicate otherwise. Guys here regularly make distinctions around this all the time. Clockwatcher, GFE, PSE, Rushed, Mechanical, etc. And Sugar threads have additional distinctions.

So while not disputed directly, pretending that all transaction-based sex is the same seems pointless.[/QUOTE]And counting dicks. Add an extra one in for you. Do you have Asperger syndrome or something?

Reading your whole thing, you seem to have a case of the ass about guys that are getting laid. Why are you fixated on how they do it or how much they pay?

As someone who has been able to put past addictions to alcohol and nicotine behind me over 20 yrs ago. I grew up in a very addictive atmosphere with my close family members addicted to cigs alcohol coke pills ect ect. Avoiding addiction is first, but understanding how addiction effects the brain is the most important part. I added a link for anyone who wishes to try and gain a greater understanding and maybe help them with their addiction. Give the addict the info and if the addict what's to help themselves they will read it. All the headings in the link are links to the highlighted subjects. [URL]https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/where-addiction-meets-your-brain

[QUOTE=Admin2;3361003]I think it varies from person to person. Probably the best I've ever heard it put came from a guy who recognized me as an addict long before anybody else did. He said that when the pain or cost of a behavior (doesn't matter the behavior) gets greater than the benefit or pleasure of a behavior than there is room for change. He didn't say people would, he said there was room for it.

Without getting to "preachy" I personally think that there is also an element of something that some people call grace. I struggle with that because then it means that not anybody can do it and I think that anybody can so I don't really know.

I do know that it there is a big element of "want" involved. People got to want it, they got to want it bad, they got to want it more than dope but I don't think that happens on the same level as choice. It's not something that one comes to through logic nor reason, it's a visceral thing. It's emotional, it's mental, it's "spiritual" you got to have a hunger for a different life. You got to be willing to sacrifice and suffer. You got to be willing to say (again it's not really conscience, it's deeper) "I'll do what it takes," not "I'll do what I can. ".[/QUOTE]I think we are definitely on the same page because anybody can do it but they have to, as you say, "Want" to do it. The recovering addicts that I know either hit "Rock Bottom" the loss of everything or the pain of their behavior of using became greater than the pleasure the behavior was giving them. Many of the addicts I know struggled with emotional / personal issues which caused them to mask the pain they could no longer bear to feel with the pleasure of the drug. Once the pain of using became greater than the pain they were hiding from, they "Wanted" to change. I call "wanting" change as the "Light bulb turning on" in your head. This is the realization that the continuation of a behavior that is detrimental to your existence makes you want to "Do what it takes" to change. It's the day you stop bull shitting everyone in your life including yourself and you finally act on changing your behavior. You call it "Want" and I call it wanting to make a "Choice" to change. I guess I simplified a deep visceral thing.

I personally had a behavior which was not the result of taking an external substance. My behavior gave me an endorphin high. I loved this High, but it wasn't until the "light bulb turned on" that I made the choice to "Do what it takes" to change my behavior. I didn't go through typical withdrawls like drug addicts but the loss of the endorphin high was just as difficult and caused severe mental withdrawls. I guess in your terms I "Wanted" to "do what it takes" however by my terminology, I made the choice to change my behavior because it was more painful than the pleasure of the endorphin high.

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3361578]I think we are definitely on the same page because anybody can do it but they have to, as you say, "Want" to do it. The recovering addicts that I know either hit "Rock Bottom" the loss of everything or the pain of their behavior of using became greater than the pleasure the behavior was giving them. Many of the addicts I know struggled with emotional / personal issues which caused them to mask the pain they could no longer bear to feel with the pleasure of the drug. Once the pain of using became greater than the pain they were hiding from, they "Wanted" to change. I call "wanting" change as the "Light bulb turning on" in your head. This is the realization that the continuation of a behavior that is detrimental to your existence makes you want to "Do what it takes" to change. It's the day you stop bull shitting everyone in your life including yourself and you finally act on changing your behavior. You call it "Want" and I call it wanting to make a "Choice" to change. I guess I simplified a deep visceral thing.

I personally had a behavior which was not the result of taking an external substance. My behavior gave me an endorphin high. I loved this High, but it wasn't until the "light bulb turned on" that I made the choice to "Do what it takes" to change my behavior. I didn't go through typical withdrawls like drug addicts but the loss of the endorphin high was just as difficult and caused severe mental withdrawls. I guess in your terms I "Wanted" to "do what it takes" however by my terminology, I made the choice to change my behavior because it was more painful than the pleasure of the endorphin high.[/QUOTE]A great post, FF. There is a saying common in Alcoholics Anonymous that is similar: Some people come to AA when they see the light. Most of us get here when we feel the heat.

Alaska Tom.

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3361578]This is the realization that the continuation of a behavior that is detrimental to your existence makes you want to "Do what it takes" to change. It's the day you stop bull shitting everyone in your life including yourself and you finally act on changing your behavior. You call it "Want" and I call it wanting to make a "Choice" to change. I guess I simplified a deep visceral thing.

I personally had a behavior which was not the result of taking an external substance. My behavior gave me an endorphin high. I loved this High, but it wasn't until the "light bulb turned on" that I made the choice to "Do what it takes" to change my behavior. I didn't go through typical withdrawls like drug addicts but the loss of the endorphin high was just as difficult and caused severe mental withdrawls. I guess in your terms I "Wanted" to "do what it takes" however by my terminology, I made the choice to change my behavior because it was more painful than the pleasure of the endorphin high.[/QUOTE]You are trying to map your experience to theirs and you are really making this more intellectual than I've ever seen it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm saying in over three decades I've never seen this happen as a "realization that the continuation of a behavior" bubba that assumes way fucking more mental gymnastics that the average junkie in the throes of addiction is capable of. I know it sits better with you to keep re-framing this as a choice and for a couple it might be, I've just never met that couple of people.

Its really tough for non addicts to understand what addiction feels like. There might have been some stuff you did that you ended up not liking so much so you quit it. I personally get a kick out of people that say "I tried that and didn't like it so I didn't do it again. " As an addict I'm always thinking "what the fuck does like have to do with it?" I shot a whole lot of dope after I fucking hated doing it. I tell people who ask me that addiction is like this terrible itch inside your brain, that will only go away by doing something. When I was quitting smoking (1. 5 years now) I used to get sooooooooo fucking pissed off with the people who insisted that "most cravings go away in 5 minutes" I literally wanted to kick them in the balls. I don't get cravings, I get fucking obsessions that don't go away, they just get stronger the longer I don't do the thing my brain is screaming for.

A2.

[QUOTE=FreckleFreak;3360758]On your next visit when you think "It's Time To Eat" you might find yourself as an unwilling cuckhold. She loves dancing in the rain without a raincoat with special friends, especially right after her fix. Plus you never know when the BF last had her. I suggest you bring douche with your $.[/QUOTE]The handle "itstimetoeat" has nothing to do with eating pussy. It is a racing term.

To add to what others have said, the process of actual addiction involves true re-wiring of the brain. The current science shows it's due to a combination of biological vulnerability (some folks are simply more likely to get addicted to some substances than others) and the actual chemical- heroin is about 2. 5 times addictive as any other substance, although Fentanyl comes close. Some folks will try heroin and not become addicted, but overall the likelihood of addiction is higher.

When addiction does occur, its a lethal combination- the dopamine systems of the brain (the reward / pleasure / impulse centers) become hyperactive, while at the same time the frontal cortex, which controls judgement and planning, becomes inactive. So addicts are impulsive, only focus on immediate reward, and simply can't "see" long-term consequences. The truly sad part is that they never re-create the first "high" that started the process, but they feel horrible when they are not using. It's no longer seeking pleasure, just avoiding pain and misery. And the craving never stops- an addict can get clean, but they will always crave and be at risk for relapse (Some ex-smokers will tell you they haven't had a cig for 20 years, but still want them!)

I have already seen too many good SPs go down the tubes with this, and if I have a sense they are using I'm done. I don't want the fatal overdose on my dime.

Peace.

The good dr.

I quit drinking over 10 yrs ago. No Dui's or any alcohol related offenses.

Had a series of bad life events happening and alcohol was my way to cope, so I thought. It made me weak, unable to confront my problems head on.

I've never smoked or taken any kind of pain pill. Even when I broke my leg, I took over the counter pain relievers instead of the percs and / or vics that I was prescribed.

I did 'see the light' so to speak. It was real and profound. Being able to stop drinking was easy for me. I've never even thought about taking a drink in over 10 yrs.

[QUOTE=DrDave39;3361770]To add to what others have said, the process of actual addiction involves true re-wiring of the brain. The current science shows it's due to a combination of biological vulnerability (some folks are simply more likely to get addicted to some substances than others) and the actual chemical- heroin is about 2. 5 times addictive as any other substance, although Fentanyl comes close. Some folks will try heroin and not become addicted, but overall the likelihood of addiction is higher.

When addiction does occur, its a lethal combination- the dopamine systems of the brain (the reward / pleasure / impulse centers) become hyperactive, while at the same time the frontal cortex, which controls judgement and planning, becomes inactive. So addicts are impulsive, only focus on immediate reward, and simply can't "see" long-term consequences. The truly sad part is that they never re-create the first "high" that started the process, but they feel horrible when they are not using. It's no longer seeking pleasure, just avoiding pain and misery. And the craving never stops- an addict can get clean, but they will always crave and be at risk for relapse (Some ex-smokers will tell you they haven't had a cig for 20 years, but still want them!)

I have already seen too many good SPs go down the tubes with this, and if I have a sense they are using I'm done. I don't want the fatal overdose on my dime.

Peace.

The good dr.[/QUOTE]When I quit smoking it was ten years before I did not want a cigarette, not I can't stand to be around them.

[QUOTE=Scarab31;3361838]I quit drinking over 10 yrs ago. No Dui's or any alcohol related offenses.

Had a series of bad life events happening and alcohol was my way to cope, so I thought. It made me weak, unable to confront my problems head on.

I've never smoked or taken any kind of pain pill. Even when I broke my leg, I took over the counter pain relievers instead of the percs and / or vics that I was prescribed.

I did 'see the light' so to speak. It was real and profound. Being able to stop drinking was easy for me. I've never even thought about taking a drink in over 10 yrs.[/QUOTE]I'm approaching 15 years of not drinking. Prior to that I was a daily heavy drinker for about 20 years. A functioning alcoholic. I finally had to surrender to win.

Congratulations Scarab!

[QUOTE=KnottyWood;3361873]When I quit smoking it was ten years before I did not want a cigarette, not I can't stand to be around them.[/QUOTE]I saw a shrink who's practice is limited to smoking cessation. It was all B-Mod no "therapy. " She never asked me why I smoked she just said "If you want to quit do this. " One of the most important things she had me do was when I smoked I had to stop doing everything else. No phone, music, TV, conversation, walking in the street, nothing. I could smoke whenever I wanted to but when I smoked I couldn't do anything else.

After a week of that I honestly couldn't wait to stop smoking. We had a quit date that was a week in advance, I asked her if it was ok if I stopped a week early and she said no. I had to do that shit for one more week. I've been doing nicotine replacement but I've never wanted to smoke after doing that for two weeks. I literally couldn't wait to stop.

A2.

[QUOTE=Admin2;3362043]I saw a shrink who's practice is limited to smoking cessation. It was all B-Mod no "therapy. " She never asked me why I smoked she just said "If you want to quit do this. " One of the most important things she had me do was when I smoked I had to stop doing everything else. No phone, music, TV, conversation, walking in the street, nothing. I could smoke whenever I wanted to but when I smoked I couldn't do anything else.

After a week of that I honestly couldn't wait to stop smoking. We had a quit date that was a week in advance, I asked her if it was ok if I stopped a week early and she said no. I had to do that shit for one more week. I've been doing nicotine replacement but I've never wanted to smoke after doing that for two weeks. I literally couldn't wait to stop.

A2.[/QUOTE]I believe this strategy of doing nothing when smoking, do not work for all (if I understood you correctly). In my case when I was a regular smoker, I had to stop doing anything. I have to be absolutely doing nothing to enjoy my smoke. So it depends. I quit 9 years back. I am glad I did.

[QUOTE=ItsTimeToEat;3361743]The handle "itstimetoeat" has nothing to do with eating pussy. It is a racing term.[/QUOTE]Only a moron wouldn't understand the play on words in my post. Don't worry you aren't the first.

[QUOTE=Admin2;3361702]You are trying to map your experience to theirs and you are really making this more intellectual than I've ever seen it.

There might have been some stuff you did that you ended up not liking so much so you quit it.

A2.[/QUOTE]I do try and intellectualize many things because of logic. Never having been in a substance abuse situation myself, I concede that it's not a choice but something that just fucking happens because the "Want" is so much greater for whatever reason. I do know that my deceased fiance knew that she had one relapse left in her but not another recovery. She always told me that is one of the main reasons she never used again, even though at times she could "taste" the cravings of her drug of choice.

Every time I continued my behavior I became physically ill, to the point I was hospitalized. That is when I found NA and even though it wasn't for substance abuse it gave me hope and a path to want to change. The other stuff that I ended up not liking in my circumstances, well there was the final decision to get a DIVORCE that made me see the light. Once that decision was made, the sky cleared up and my life became so much easier. That decision combined with NA made me want to change my behavior.

Thanks again for your insight.

[QUOTE=Xelajo;3362053]I believe this strategy of doing nothing when smoking, do not work for all (if I understood you correctly). In my case when I was a regular smoker, I had to stop doing anything. I have to be absolutely doing nothing to enjoy my smoke. So it depends. I quit 9 years back. I am glad I did.[/QUOTE]By totally isolating the behavior it really made me take notice of it. By the end of the first week I was simply tired of smoking and I realized that most of the time I wasn't smoking because I wanted to smoke. I was smoking because the idea of smoking had entered my head. By doing nothing else when I smoked, just standing in a corner somewhere smoking I felt, it's hard to explain but almost silly doing it. This was a thing that I had done for 40 years and I really couldn't come up with a reason to continue doing it.

To be clear, I literally wasn't supposed to do anything else when I smoked. If I was on the street I had to face a building so I couldn't watch people walk by. If at home I went to this corner so I couldn't look at the view from the windows, no music, no book, no phone, no tv, no coffee, nothing at all. When I smoked, and I could smoke as often as I liked, ALL I could do while smoking was smoke. When I wasn't smoking I could do whatever I wanted but as soon as I smoked I had to stop and just smoke. If I was with people I had to stop talking to them, separate myself, face a wall and smoke.

I've been working on losing some weight and I'm thinking about doing this same thing with non-optimal food. If I do it, if I get a burger I'll get it to go, sit in my apartment, face a wall, and be alone with my burger. It's not about punishment, or aversion therapy, it's all about mindfulness, be alone with the vice so you can't hide it under something else.

It worked great for me.

[QUOTE=Admin2;3362360]By totally isolating the behavior it really made me take notice of it. By the end of the first week I was simply tired of smoking and I realized that most of the time I wasn't smoking because I wanted to smoke. I was smoking because the idea of smoking had entered my head. By doing nothing else when I smoked, just standing in a corner somewhere smoking I felt, it's hard to explain but almost silly doing it. This was a thing that I had done for 40 years and I really couldn't come up with a reason to continue doing it.

To be clear, I literally wasn't supposed to do anything else when I smoked. If I was on the street I had to face a building so I couldn't watch people walk by. If at home I went to this corner so I couldn't look at the view from the windows, no music, no book, no phone, no tv, no coffee, nothing at all. When I smoked, and I could smoke as often as I liked, ALL I could do while smoking was smoke. When I wasn't smoking I could do whatever I wanted but as soon as I smoked I had to stop and just smoke. If I was with people I had to stop talking to them, separate myself, face a wall and smoke.

I've been working on losing some weight and I'm thinking about doing this same thing with non-optimal food. If I do it, if I get a burger I'll get it to go, sit in my apartment, face a wall, and be alone with my burger. It's not about punishment, or aversion therapy, it's all about mindfulness, be alone with the vice so you can't hide it under something else.

It worked great for me.[/QUOTE]I wonder if it would work as effectively with food. Eating tends to be a socially geared activity more than smoking (at least here in the US). I mean, if you order a poor food choice while sharing dinner it would be a little strange to scoop it up and go out to the ally to eat it.

I do see the value in approaching a bad habit that way.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3362982]I wonder if it would work as effectively with food. Eating tends to be a socially geared activity more than smoking (at least here in the US). I mean, if you order a poor food choice while sharing dinner it would be a little strange to scoop it up and go out to the ally to eat it.

I do see the value in approaching a bad habit that way.[/QUOTE]A2's comments are right on the money. Years ago I went through a program called "Smoke Enders" that broke down the habits and "triggers" associated with smoking. The main triggers for most people are caffeine, alcohol and the telephone. So the idea was to avoid those triggers so that the temptation to smoke wasn't as great. Each week they added new rules (limitations) until, as A2 mentioned, the ONLY time you were allowed to smoke was when you did nothing BUT smoke. You couldn't be on the phone, you couldn't be sitting in your favorite chair, you couldn't be talking to anyone, you couldn't be watching television, etc. , etc. And A2 is right--when you light up a cigarette to do absolutely nothing BUT smoke that cigarette, you can't help but wonder, "Why in the hell am I doing this?

When someone posts on here they want new friends and mention QV rates; when someone has other Seniors post comments for them (third party ads for a girl instead of girl doing it themselves); are they really: Low volume? And are they UTR or Pretend UTR or Not UTR?