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It's OK you just don't get it! For that matter probably never will.
However don't forget opinions are like assholes everybody's got one.
I hope someday when I grow up I can be as responsible and self-righteous as others!
AJ
PS
Not that it would matter to you or that I personally care about your opinion. I am extremely ecstatic about MY 42yrs.
Never criticize a man unless you`ve walked in his shoes.
Wonderlust knows exactly where I'm coming from, and that's what was important to me!
What exactly IS it that you want "Gotten"? Your inability to make RATIONAL CHOICES? What a pathetic, waste of oxygen consumption you are? Obviously, rational decision making will never be your forte! I am ecstatic about my 42, soon to be 43 years too! They involve ZERO ADDICTION OF ANY IMPAIRING BEHAVIOR OR SUBSTANCE! Don't be jealous!
[QUOTE=A John]It's OK you just don't get it! For that matter probably never will.
However don't forget opinions are like assholes everybody's got one.
I hope someday when I grow up I can be as responsible and self-righteous as others!
AJ
PS
Not that it would matter to you or that I personally care about your opinion. I am extremely ecstatic about MY 42yrs.
Never criticize a man unless you`ve walked in his shoes.
Wonderlust knows exactly where I'm coming from, and that's what was important to me![/QUOTE]
HEY,
TRAILER PARK
Reading back a couple pages it's obvious to many here you are the one who needs to look in the mirror.
Something is obviously hitting a nerve with you (pushing a button)
push, push, push & push
Does CONTROLLING sound familiar!
I'm done with your ignorance.
LMFAO :)
AJ
I see, and you are such a damned genius, you . . . . CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS?? You cannot even articulate to yourself your own "sobriety/contol over behavior" maintenance?? P.S. Enjoy your relapse, cause I don't think abstinance is a viable option for you!
[QUOTE=A John]Reading back a couple pages it's obvious to many here you are the one who needs to look in the mirror.
I'm done with your ignorance.
AJ[/QUOTE]
Two cliches come to mind concerning recent posts on this thread.
> Gentlemen can disagree without being disagreeable.
> If you argue with a fool, you may be taken for a fool.
The topics being discussed here are obviously very personal, not-to-say explosive, and some folks are very touchy. There seems to be more heat than light in many comments. Let's keep in mind how our posts might contribute to increased understanding and success in reaching desired goals.
While I disagree with a lot of what I read, I can also usually find nuggets of truth in almost any non-trivial post.
It is sometimes useful to [b]focus on points of agreement,[/b] even while pointing out points of disagreement.
D
Redneck
The thread's about addictions. If there is or isn't a legitimate possibility that someone has a sexual addiction, is a valid question. Accusing certain members (most of whom you've never met) of not having addictions, or of being normal rather than addicted, in the absence of evidence about their lives, is not really a valid response.
It's kind of like talking about food addiction. We all need food, and most of us use it rather sensibly. Some of us use it irresponsibly but still aren't "addicted" -- nevertheless, we experience deleterious side-effects from our lack of moderation (overweight; unhealthy). But THEN, above and beyond the "irresponsible" eaters, there are actually ADDICTED people. They have a set of neuro-transmitter and other physiological and psychological responses to a certain behavior, which are categorically different from the previous two categories. Responsible and irresponsible eaters, alike, are simply making choices and living by them, as you rightly point out, Redneck. But ADDICTION victims are not making choices for themselves. Their addiction, rather than their internal mental skills, is the issue at hand.
You wouldn't walk into a room of people who are suffering the detoxification symptoms of coming off a three-year heroin binge, and tell them they should "try harder" not to feel bad about the absence of heroin in their bloodstream. Well, similarly, it's foolish to tell someone who is sexually addicted, that his only issue is will power.
People who make some sexual choices that are rather gluttonous, but who are nevertheless not addicted, have one pattern of behavior. You're welcome to go talk to them. They aren't, generally, in this thread. They're all over the rest of this website. :)
People who are genuinely ADDICTED to sexuality experience it differently. They get out of jail for cruising, and cruise that same afternoon. They lose all their money and then go solicit a pay-for-play. They lose their job for spending the afternoon cruising, and then cruise on the first day of their new job. These people require not just suggestions about choices and will power. Their will power is insufficient to control their addiction. The issue for them has almost NOTHING to do with choices and will power. It has to do, instead, with addiction.
You're not an addiction counselor, Redneck. I see that you've claimed some expertise in this area. That's a lie. If you did have expertise, you wouldn't so obviously conflate two familiar conditions into one. You wouldn't assert tough-love enthusiasm-coaching of the "improve your will power" sort, to people for whom (as you would instantly know, if you genuinely had experience) the question has nothing to do with will power.
Well, there is something to what Redneck is saying.
For example, I have never been addicted to heroin because I know it's highly addictive and I have resisted all invitations to give it a try. I am responsible for that first hit.
From what I remember reading there is some controversy in the psychology community about whether "sex addiction" even exists. And IMHO we shouldn't demand forum members produce citations of studies. Of course it would improve their credibility but this is an anonymous forum, not a peer-reviewed journal. The way it works for me is: if a credible-sounding member makes a statement which is interesting or useful to me, I'll follow-up on it myself. For example, I researched the 12-step program because of what I read here.
Indeed there is some danger that by calling a behaviour an "addiction" we dismiss our responsiblity. We may rationalize that we are no longer in control, so it's somehow ok to do it. We say: "Can't stop it, so don't try."
Hookers are just not on a par with heroin. I don't go into a shaking delirium if I have deprived myself of hookers.
I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time -- I know it's tough out there -- just playing devil's advocate here.
Thank you Snake! Point well taken! I too don't have withdrawls if I don't get laid, but blue balls sure hurt, and it sucks to not have that pleasure that is found in SEX! However, it does not, nor ever has been at the level of an "addiction", and for anyone advocating that it is, is well-versed in the art of NOT taking responsibility for what is an overwhelmingly VOLUNTARY activity, whether it is consuming sex or an illicit, intoxicating drug. Period!
[QUOTE=Snake27]Well, there is something to what Redneck is saying.
For example, I have never been addicted to heroin because I know it's highly addictive and I have resisted all invitations to give it a try. I am responsible for that first hit.
From what I remember reading there is some controversy in the psychology community about whether "sex addiction" even exists. And IMHO we shouldn't demand forum members produce citations of studies. Of course it would improve their credibility but this is an anonymous forum, not a peer-reviewed journal. The way it works for me is: if a credible-sounding member makes a statement which is interesting or useful to me, I'll follow-up on it myself. For example, I researched the 12-step program because of what I read here.
Indeed there is some danger that by calling a behaviour an "addiction" we dismiss our responsiblity. We may rationalize that we are no longer in control, so it's somehow ok to do it. We say: "Can't stop it, so don't try."
Hookers are just not on a par with heroin. I don't go into a shaking delirium if I have deprived myself of hookers.
I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time -- I know it's tough out there -- just playing devil's advocate here.[/QUOTE]
Nevertheless, some people have a problem with sex, so maybe we should call it a "sex problem" instead of "sex addiction", but since the term "sex addiction" is in widespread use and has been defined here it may be convenient to keep using it to label the problem.
First one must decide if one has a problem, and here it may help to have some objective evaluation from a trusted person. If you don't have a problem, great. As an example, I would say that if you are a single man who sees a prostitute once or twice a month, and you don't spend too much, and there's not much danger (either to health or getting arrested), and you're generally happy -- then you do not have a problem. But if these parameters change substantially then you might have a problem.
The interesting question to me is: what to do about it ? There's little useful discussion on that here. After some more thought I may assemble a list of suggestions that have worked (partly) for me. Anyone else want to suggest things that have actually worked ?
Snake: yup, I see your point, and purdy much wish I'd said exactly that. :)
[QUOTE=Book Guy]Compulsion ... addiction ... is there a difference? Do you have different definitions for the two? What's the advantage of thinking of it one way as opposed to the other way?
Seriously, I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. Maybe the semantics will help me to consider my own issues. Thanks. :)[/QUOTE]
Addiction, I believe comes from an outward influence; cocaine, heroin, crystal meth, etc. Anything you do because you got hooked on; because or in spite of your intent.
Compulsion come from within: Gambling, stealing, excessive horniness that leads to picking up prostitutes. Anything you do do because your natural body chemistry leads you to it.
How can someone have a "problem" with something that one get PLEASURE (e.g. sex or intoxication!) from? As an analogy, I always like to pass on a perspective that one trainer told me regarding alcoholics: They don't have a "problem" with alcohol, they have a problem with SOBRIETY! (After all, if they can't stay SOBER is that not the "problem"?). Same with a so-called sex "addict". That person does NOT have a "problem" with "sex", but a problem with a LACK OF SEX, or lack of sexual partners, encounters, etc. Thus, the voluntary pursuit of ending the "problem" (however temporarily!) begins!
[QUOTE=Snake27]Nevertheless, some people have a problem with sex, so maybe we should call it a "sex problem" instead of "sex addiction", but since the term "sex addiction" is in widespread use and has been defined here it may be convenient to keep using it to label the problem.
First one must decide if one has a problem, and here it may help to have some objective evaluation from a trusted person. If you don't have a problem, great. As an example, I would say that if you are a single man who sees a prostitute once or twice a month, and you don't spend too much, and there's not much danger (either to health or getting arrested), and you're generally happy -- then you do not have a problem. But if these parameters change substantially then you might have a problem.
The interesting question to me is: what to do about it ? There's little useful discussion on that here. After some more thought I may assemble a list of suggestions that have worked (partly) for me. Anyone else want to suggest things that have actually worked ?[/QUOTE]
Ok, Redneck, your opinion has been received and is acknowledged. Just to address one specific point in your last post, even if we say drinking alcohol is completely voluntary and leads to pleasure, etc, one potential "problem" is that, if abused, alcohol can lead to serious health problems. Or should we say "health issues" ? In any case, the alcoholic needs help, in my opinion, which is the main point.
Redneck is delighting in acting superior to others.
The initial context is, that some people posted on here complaints -- that they felt they might be "addicted" to sexuality. Redneck MIGHT have been able to contribute to that context by asking fair questions which aided those people. They are (myself included) clearly seeking answers to some of life's thornier issues.
Instead, however, Redneck posts with a tone and an attitude that betray three or four very problematic beliefs. The first and foremost of these, is, that Redneck insists on portraying Redneck as knowing more because that makes him better and therefore someone whom we ought to listen to. However, his posts tend to portray a lack of education in this field. Sure, it's fine to question the basic premises as stated by many many workers in the addiction-recovery field, by stating them and then pointing out, point by point, weaknesses in those premises. But to just announce something utterly contradictory to them without acknowledging they exist, indicates to me he doesn't know they exist. He's working in a vacuum.
Second, Redneck insists on speaking down to his listeners. His one piece of advice, consistently, is "Be like me because I'm better." Though he doesn't outright say this, he implies it. Note the circularity -- choose A, because A is worth choosing -- which is the hallmark of those who have nothing but ego to add to a conversation.
Third, Redneck is consistently using "frustrated" language. The tone of a man who is bugged that other people aren't "listening to me." No, Redneck, we ARE listening. JUST listening isn't enough for us to be convinced that you have anything valid to say. Your correct realization of our failure to AGREE with you, is not identical to our failure to HEAR you. You haven't DEFENDED your propositions, and you have generally stated them from far outside the normally accepted context as presented. Like me jumping in to an abortion debate and hollering, "You IDIOTS! How can you USE knives and scalpels on a little baby?" See, it includes several assumptions, and fails to address the other participants (or their opinions) with respect.
In the long run, Redneck is just trolling for a fight. He probably has a lot of deeper personal questions about why he mongers, himself, and doesn't want to address them so instead of thinking about his own issues, he lambastes others who are thinking about similar issues. It's the same as trying to shut everyone up on the internet.
So, to address your question: Redneck, just because it's pleasurable doesn't mean it isn't addicting. And to re-cast alcoholism as people who don't have trouble with drinking but with sobriety, utterly misses the point of much discussion of that addiction, casts yourself as someone not willing to participate in the group's talk, and therefore as someone setting out to deliberately cause problems rather than help resolve them.
You might have a valid point. But if you can't express it in a manner in which the rest of us feel like you're talking WITH us rather than DOWN TO us, then your point will continue to be lost on most of us. Personally, I think you're just very proud of yourself, and now you want the rest of us to acknowledge your superiority and gratify your ego a bit. "Oh, gosh, Redneck, I never thought of it that way. You're so brilliant! Why didn't I REALIZE that sex is PLEASURABLE and therefore I ought to do AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE? Golly, THANK YOU SO MUCH for your help. Where would I be without you?" Yeah right ...
Below is some advice to mitigate the dangers. I will admit that I am not perfect at following this advice but I have made good progress. My sex habits are far more careful and in better moderation than 20 years ago.
As I've said before, the first step is to decide if you have a problem, and here it may help to have the objective judgement of a trusted person. The criteria would be if the results of your actions can lead to serious negative consequences. If not, then you don't have a problem and you may ignore this post :).
When confronting an addiction, you must define your goals. Moderation and safety are key goals. Consider all the small steps you need to take, and work on them one at a time in sequence. Total elimination of the habit may not be realistic. It is also relevant that two of the main moral problems with visiting prostitutes are the health risk you bring to other partners and the danger of excessive expenditure, where the latter is also a problem with gambling.
With all that, here is my advice:
1. Keep a log of what you spend. This will create pressure to hold down costs. A goal of 2% of income is reasonable.
2. Rigorous adherence to safe sex. Consider alternatives such as lapdances, full-body massages, and handjobs. Don't laugh, if done right they can be fun.
3. Avoid street prostitutes and drug addicts. Finding a few regulars with whom you "click" can reduce risk too.
4. Curfew at 2 am. Limit the number of adventures per month (4 at most, 2 better).
5. Find plenty of non-sexual entertainments and develop routines -- e.g. vigorous workouts on a regular basis (makes you tired, improves your body). Even becoming a workaholic may help (keeps you diverted, improves your career, assuming you have one).
6. Best advice -- though often easier said than done -- find a loving woman, a true friend. Granted you may still feel the temptations (and it raises the aforementioned moral issues) but the demons within will be much calmer.
This advice is free, and you get what you pay for ! :)