"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

" My ATF calls our time together "vacations"."

This is the essence of our favorite avocation. Hobbying or deeper involvement sugar dating is a vacation from real life. The problem occurs when the lines blur for some of us. Many friends here are able to maintain that NSA attitude which does not imply no passion or emotional involvement, but does mandate keeping a line between real life and Sugar. My ATF one and only HYCB has inspired too deep a committment in me and I find myself thinking IRL with her instead of ORL (outside of real life ). She seems a lot more skilled at keeping that line in place. I am the more needy one. So be careful my bros and sis to keep that line in place.

" My ATF is a dancer "

Joe, be careful about strippers who frequently are Nando 1 s. I know profiling is not always good but can you really take the stripper mentality out of the strip lifestyle? Now, I am assuming by "dancer" she is a stripper. Perhaps I am wrong and she dances for the Bolshoi Ballet? I apologise if my assumption is incorrect.

[QUOTE=Hernando; 1444733]" My ATF calls our time together "vacations"."

This is the essence of our favorite avocation. Hobbying or deeper involvement sugar dating is a vacation from real life. The problem occurs when the lines blur for some of us. Many friends here are able to maintain that NSA attitude which does not imply no passion or emotional involvement, but does mandate keeping a line between real life and Sugar. My ATF one and only HYCB has inspired too deep a committment in me and I find myself thinking IRL with her instead of ORL (outside of real life ). She seems a lot more skilled at keeping that line in place. I am the more needy one. So be careful my bros and sis to keep that line in place.

" My ATF is a dancer "

Joe, be careful about strippers who frequently are Nando 1 s. I know profiling is not always good but can you really take the stripper mentality out of the strip lifestyle? Now, I am assuming by "dancer" she is a stripper. Perhaps I am wrong and she dances for the Bolshoi Ballet? I apologise if my assumption is incorrect.[/QUOTE]These are both excellent points, and I'd like to think that I have considered them. On being "a lot more skilled in keeping that line [IRL vs. ORL] in place," my ATF is very skilled at that. Like you, Hernando, I am the needy one in that "relationship." She definitely keeps me in check. It appears the roles are reversed, however, in the current USB (unemployed SB) situation I have. I need to have a heart to heart with her. I thought about just disappearing, but she is a nice girl, and I'd feel bad about that.

As for dancers, a Russian ballerina would be nice, but you are correct that I am using the PC term for strippers. Again, the ATF is a dancer, and she is nowhere near Nando1 territory. She's not a model citizen (who among us is, anyway?) , but she's employed, has stable kids, no drugs, etc. USB is closer to Nando1, but still not there. My newest interest, SB23, is a dancer but has a regular "day job" at a day care, so I am hopeful but remain cautious.

It is great to see the recent board activity, although some of us haven't had much to contribute lately. It's certainly nice to see new brothers in arms on here, some just starting on the SB journey.

I have made an observation over the past few months that apparently finds some confirmation here. To me it seems we're almost in the Seinfeld bizarro world, where we guys are the needy, emotional ones and the women are into it more for the sex. What the hell happened here? I put myself in that category as it's pretty easy to find sex in this day and age, but I desire intimacy and passion or the sex just seems empty somehow.

As far as an update on my status, things have worked themselves out with my ATF. It appears I'm in Hernando territory with the monogamy aspect from both parties, although our time together is nowhere near as frequent as his. One thing I've learned is if you care about your SB (s) , keep their feelings in mind as well. If they get emotionally attached, think about how they must feel knowing that we're married and we're with another woman every night. No easy answers there I know, but I've been surprised by some recent comments by my ATF in that regard.

Keep those cards and letters coming in!

'Rat

Well SB1 moved on after 4 months, the last 2 pretty intense. She was a Nando 1 and I got way too involved. Kept wondering what the hell I would do. After she basically moved into my hotel room for 2 weeks in a row I was addicted to the morning, noon, evening and night time fuck-a thons. And she is outstanding in bed. BTW - She says everything changed when she started taking Adderall. Became a rabbit. How do I get my wife to take it? But drama constantly. And constantly hinting for more $$. And I had capped the weekly allowance so the more the merrier for me. Which was really unfair in hindsight. Fortunately old boyfriend came back, threw $$ at her, but said get rid of me as she disappeared a few times with me. So sad to see her go but in the long term I am not leaving my wife for her, I cannot give her $2000 a month to support her, and while I ignored her disfunctionality for the sex as a fulltime gig she would have driven me crazy if I ever came out of the orgasm induced fog I was in. But would I?

Revving back up the previous contacts. We shall see.

[QUOTE=Magic Rat;1444771]I have made an observation over the past few months that apparently finds some confirmation here. To me it seems we're almost in the Seinfeld bizarro world, where we guys are the needy, emotional ones and the women are into it more for the sex. What the hell happened here? I put myself in that category as it's pretty easy to find sex in this day and age, but I desire intimacy and passion or the sex just seems empty somehow.[/QUOTE]Magic,

What the hell [I]has[/I] happened here? Could it be the age difference? I know when I was in college, I had no problem going for just pure sex, no commitments allowed. But your ATF is closer in age to you, isn't she? So who knows? A reversal in the time / space continuum, clearly.

Maybe a certain kind of man is attracted to this kind of thing? The guys who are just looking to bust a nut aren't interested in the Bowl for any long term. It takes too much work, and it's too uncertain. As for the babies, that is the real conundrum. I'm sure any one of them could have as much sex as they could handle from guys their own age, so clearly that's not it. My ATF tells me she only looks on guys her age as friends. The idea of having sex with them makes her laugh, so she says. She likes the old-fashioned, chivalrous way I treat her, and how kind and thoughtful I am to her. Plus my mad bedroom skills LOL! As for the sugar, in two of my current situations, it has pretty much faded away. I buy them things now and again, and take them out to eat, or to the grocery or clothes store, but a per-meet allowance is no longer a factor with Brit or ATF, and Polo's sugar needs are so low that it is hardly an issue anymore either.

So could it be that there is, after all, an emotional component with the babies that keeps them coming back as well? Mandy, I think you are a unique case, so maybe you could share some insights from some of your sugar sisters. Perhaps, like life, it is complicated and different for every person, baby or daddy.

Just some musings as I finish my lunch.

Scott

F Scott " a per-meet allowance is no longer a factor "

Scotty, you must be the Man if your SBs are not demanding Sugar to any great degree any more. I must say that while my SB never asks for anything, I always donate what I originally established for her. I would love it if she suggested that I cut back on my largesse, which is to the limit of my ability. Part of the treat for you is the message " You are more than an allowance to me " and the other is the break in pressure on you to perform.

Regarding allowance, I give a per visit donation for a guaranteed number of visits per month and it is frequently more. While I believe my SB enjoys our time together as much as I do and would want to see me anyway I have concerns for two reasons. 1) I have more time open to spend with her this summer, therefore the cost is escalating beyond affordability. And 2) I fear that she would not want to see me on those extra days if I renegociated a fixed allowance for an open ended visitation schedule. This is the downside to PTP since I have established the routine. On her side of the equation, she uses my Sugar to pay for the hotel and gas, and those costs are going up and significant driving is involved.

Mandy, I would love your input as well as the brothers' about this issue. Should I bring this up to her to essentially cap her earnings, or should I live with what we have established. I see her on an average of twice / week all night long. We also go out to dinner and other events, occasionally travel, and I buy her a lot of stuff. She is so easy and grateful as well as low maintainence compared to what I am used to. Occasionally I have three nights open and rarely only have one / week. So in the end the money probably works out the same. Thanks, Nando

Nando,

What if you re-negotiated your situation to a bi-weekly allowance, given in advance of the "pay period", and see how it goes? In other words, take what you give her per month, on average, divide it in two, and give her the amount in one lump. This could break the connection between pay and play in both your minds, and then it would be up to you to make it work to your advantage in terms of frequency if and when you could. If it turns out that she is coming up with excuses to curtail your access to the booty, the most you are out is half a month's worth of expenses.

Given all you have told us about her, and your relationship, I can't imagine that she would have a problem with this, nor would she cut herself off from the Nando Love Machine and the associated sugar and extra perks. You could frame it in terms of not wanting to see what you have as a strict P4P situation any longer; it makes you feel cheap and tawdry. If she goes for it, tally ho my brother. If not, I suppose that is an indicator of sorts as well.

The way things happened for me with my ATF is that a few months after things had gotten serious, she called asking for some help with some bike repair classes she wanted to take, which I gladly provided. Very soon afterwards, we spent a few hours in the Rumpus Room, and when I left I deliberately did not offer her the usual sugar. Nothing was said on either side about that, but the next time we got together, I took her grocery shopping and then back to her apartment for a little playtime. Again, upon leaving, no extra sugar. I tried for a while to keep track of the dollars-per-fucking ratio, to make sure neither of us was getting shortchanged, but it just became too complicated, since I obviously couldn't write it down anywhere!

With Brit, it started out at the beginning as a gift-buying arrangement, not cold, hard sugar. Now I just ask her what she needs. Sometimes it's cash, sometimes a new purse, or a pair of shoes. When her grandmother died not too long ago, I helped her with the plane ticket to the funeral.

As for Polo, as I said the amount is ridiculously small compared with the workout she provides, but I might try to modify that as well. It may work out against me in the long run, however. The woman has expensive taste, and something tells me the Ralph Lauren Outlet Store is not going to cut it!

In the end, my friend, what do you have to lose? She either says "yes" or "no." With the first, you have cut yourself some slack, with the second, you are right where you are now, no better, no worse.

On another topic, Joe, your USB giving you instruction sounds a bit like Polo to me. My advice is to embrace your inner Boy Toy and just do what she says. You might learn a thing or two!

Keep up the good work, all.

Scott

I've loved reading everyone's updates! Things for me are still nice and fantastic. Memories is offering to reach out to some of his contacts to help me get different perspectives for my thesis and The Doctor is just as perfect and sweet as he can be. Including bringing up a possible trip to Cape Cod this evening when he knew I had a terrible day! I saw memories last night, see The Doctor on Saturday and then am even flying home next week to spend my 8th wedding anniversary with my husband. Yes, all is well in my non-jealous world!

So, the allowance thing. Even as much as I wanted to put The Doctor back on an allowance as I thought it would keep the line drawn that kind of didn't happen. So, usually, when I visit he would hand me a check at the train station. The morning he took me back to the train station after our first time back together, he was half asleep (crawled out of bed 5 minutes before we left) and forgot the check book. He asked if I was ok for money, and at the time I was but told him I would let him know if I need anything. Now, the train schedule has gotten very screwed up and he's started flying me back and forth and I personally realize that is a bit expensive so that weighs in on my thinking. I do now have 1 thing that I'm going to ask for this weekend. I am becoming addicted to this exercise class called Barre. He knows I'm taking it and even booked a massage appointment at a spa near me last weekend because I was SO sore from it. (Nice little gift, I did not ask for) Here's the thing, for an unlimited monthly pass to this exercise studio its $165 / month. That's most certainly out of my range and since I literally never ask for things, I thought I would ask for that. Not too expensive on the grand scheme of things and hey me getting into awesome shape benefits him in the long run!

I do think the approach Scott mentioned is nice. Memories and I are not on a p4p situation. The first week of the month he gives me my "rent". That's what the allowance he gives me covers. Now, I've had a few months where I wasn't here all 4 weeks and he seems ok with that. Next week for example, he's happy that I get to go home and reconnect with my husband.

Those are just my thoughts on the whole allowance thing, I have most certainly let it slide with The Doctor, but I don't think I would with Memories. The connection just isn't the same.

I do want to give a heads up that I may "check-out" for a few weeks. The end of this quarter is starting to kick my butt (see previous mention to a terrible day) and I will spend most of my next 3 weeks writing all sorts of craziness. I love reading everyone's posts. Please keep writing so that I have something to read when I need a quick mental break. I'll chime back in again when I've come up for air.

Night!

Mandy

Thanks Scott and Mandy for your sage advice.

I think I will take it as offered and see what she thinks. Her answer in past discussions was "whatever I want " which is sweet but no help in telling me how she feels. My fear is that since PTP encourages frequency for money reasons abandoning that system might expose me to the harsh reality that she is all about money. I truly don't think so but we'll see.

Have a good weekend full of Sugar treats everyone. Good luck with your writing projects Mandy Nando

Well, not really, but M&G #3 with SB23 went very well last night.

But first, before I delve into the details, let me wish you, Mandy, all the best as you finish up your schoolwork for the semester. I've very much enjoyed your contributions here, and if this sounds like ass kissing, it probably is, because you sound like one awesome girl.

Now back to the topic at hand. M&G #2 with SB23, just last Wednesday, went so well that she suggested I stop by her strip club after work last night to meet again. Seeing as how it's not far from my office, who am I to refuse? Plus, I like to be able to window shop before I make a major purchase, and this seemed like the ideal situation in which to sample the goods before making any decisions.

I arrived a little before she was ready, as she had acquired a "surprise" for me and was making sure everything was perfect. When she emerged from the dressing room, I had to pick up my jaw off the floor. Oh. My. God. I knew she was attractive, but she obviously doesn't dress like this in public. She has the most perfectly-toned and tight little 23-year-old spinner body I've ever seen. Ever. And she's recently added some aftermarket c-cups for nice effect. Well done, SB23, well done. Oh, and the surprise (and I don't remember my telling her that this is one of my biggest turn-ons) was a sexy garter belt-cum-stockings outfit that showed off everything nicely.

We had a drink and a nice chat, and I watched her excellent moves during her stage set. She came back to chat for a while longer, and then we headed to the VIP for some private time. It was all good, clean fun, but the talk did turn sexy for a little while (favorite positions and so on). *She* brought up the subject of seeing each other again in a more, ahem, intimate location, which I consider a good sign. And we were able to reach a good compromise on sugar. Apropos of our recent discussions here, I proposed a bi-weekly allowance, to which she happily agreed. She is not comfortable with case-by-case P4P, saying that it would make her feel like a hooker. Not to rehash that discussion here again, but, at this point, I don't see her skipping out of town with my money, so we'll try the bi-weekly pay period plan for a while.

All in all, it was a great night, and, unless I am totally clueless, there are good times ahead. This is not to say that all is perfect in the sugar bowl, as I still have to figure out what to do with USB (unemployed SB). I am hoping that her impending start at a new job will make my decision for me, in that she'll have less time to play.

OK, that's enough for now. Enjoy the weekend, wherever it takes you, my friends.

Regards,

Joe

[QUOTE=JoesParty; 1446252]Well, not really, but M&G #3 with SB23 went very well last night.

But first, before I delve into the details, let me wish you, Mandy, all the best as you finish up your schoolwork for the semester. I've very much enjoyed your contributions here, and if this sounds like ass kissing, it probably is, because you sound like one awesome girl.

Now back to the topic at hand. M&G #2 with SB23, just last Wednesday, went so well that she suggested I stop by her strip club after work last night to meet again. Seeing as how it's not far from my office, who am I to refuse? Plus, I like to be able to window shop before I make a major purchase, and this seemed like the ideal situation in which to sample the goods before making any decisions.

I arrived a little before she was ready, as she had acquired a "surprise" for me and was making sure everything was perfect. When she emerged from the dressing room, I had to pick up my jaw off the floor. Oh. My. God. I knew she was attractive, but she obviously doesn't dress like this in public. She has the most perfectly-toned and tight little 23-year-old spinner body I've ever seen. Ever. And she's recently added some aftermarket see-cups for nice effect. Well done, SB23, well done. Oh, and the surprise (and I don't remember my telling her that this is one of my biggest turn-ons) was a sexy garter belt-cum-stockings outfit that showed off everything nicely.

We had a drink and a nice chat, and I watched her excellent moves during her stage set. She came back to chat for a while longer, and then we headed to the VIP for some private time. It was all good, clean fun, but the talk did turn sexy for a little while (favorite positions and so on). *She* brought up the subject of seeing each other again in a more, ahem, intimate location, which I consider a good sign. And we were able to reach a good compromise on sugar. Apropos of our recent discussions here, I proposed a bi-weekly allowance, to which she happily agreed. She is not comfortable with case-by-case P4P, saying that it would make her feel like a hooker. Not to rehash that discussion here again, but, at this point, I don't see her skipping out of town with my money, so we'll try the bi-weekly pay period plan for a while.

All in all, it was a great night, and, unless I am totally clueless, there are good times ahead. This is not to say that all is perfect in the sugar bowl, as I still have to figure out what to do with USB (unemployed SB). I am hoping that her impending start at a new job will make my decision for me, in that she'll have less time to play.

OK, that's enough for now. Enjoy the weekend, wherever it takes you, my friends.

Regards,

Joe[/QUOTE]Joe: good to hear that you are getting a good start with SB. God Luck with it.

I had a date yesterday, nice day to spend with SB. Dinner, movie, etc. She was rushing for the date and god pulled over (ticket) so little bad start. But. In all. Dinner was very nice, romantic. She opened up. But it kept me wondering. As she is genuine and honest. Am I falling in love with this SB? How real is this world? Am I creating a separate world here to fulfill my dreams? Anyway, at dinner place, there was live band. And some of the songs got us excited, attracted to each other more. It kept me bugging all day today. Why am I thinking about my SB so much?

Will see. But qns to my friends, how much emotionally are you getting attached to SBs? I am new and it is killing me as I am texting with her almost hourly.

[QUOTE=G George; 1446372]Joe: good to hear that you are getting a good start with SB. God Luck with it.

I had a date yesterday, nice day to spend with SB. Dinner, movie, etc. She was rushing for the date and god pulled over (ticket) so little bad start. But. In all. Dinner was very nice, romantic. She opened up. But it kept me wondering. As she is genuine and honest. Am I falling in love with this SB? How real is this world? Am I creating a separate world here to fulfill my dreams? Anyway, at dinner place, there was live band. And some of the songs got us excited, attracted to each other more. It kept me bugging all day today. Why am I thinking about my SB so much?

Will see. But qns to my friends, how much emotionally are you getting attached to SBs? I am new and it is killing me as I am texting with her almost hourly.[/QUOTE]George, this is a common discussion item here, and trust me, you're not alone. I assume you've read some of the recent (I'm thinking the last couple of months here) posts?

My post yesterday was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I've been in your shoes. IMHO, if you had as close to a "real" date as possible and you two clicked on an emotional level, it is only natural to be having these butterflies. I don't mean to put a damper on things, though, when I say that you need to be careful. It could happen in any relationship, of course, but when there's sugar involved, you don't want to be in a situation where you could be taken advantage of.

If you haven't already, go back and read these threads for a couple hours. There is invaluable information on getting too attached, IRL GFE situations, love, and protecting yourself (and your family, if you have one at home).

My advice: enjoy the ride, but try to take it slow. Easier said than done, I realize.

I'll throw in my two cents on SB love. I was in love with mine and I truly still believe she was with me. The thing you need to realize and accept is you will get burned eventually. I'm still trying to evaluate if it was worth it. I think it was. I spent a year with a hot 23 yo HCB who I had a ton of fun with. The thing is this. If she is 20-something and in college, she has an entirely different life apart from your relationship including other friends and possibly RLBF or at least casual relationships. You will never be part of this world. Eventually she will move on.

I'm not saying it's not ok to fall in love with your SB. The nature of the relationships make it difficult for it not to happen. Just realize that it's not forever and be prepared for the inevitable pain that will follow.

Enjoy it while you can though!

Drummer

I would throw out a word of caution here. I'm not saying that it's not possible to have a great SB who's a dancer. I hope you have found one. Just be aware that in all the aspects of the paid adult world from SBs, to escorts, to strippers, none is more skilled or trained at deceiving and extracting $$$ from a guy for very little return than a stripper. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but just don't let your emotions get ahead of your pocketbook.

A good site from years ago (still live) which serves as an example is [url]www.ihatestippers.com[/url] This site has a series of voicemails between a stripper and her target that are both hilarious and scary. I'm sure you're nothing like the guy who is duped by this woman, but it still shows the mentality of many dancers.

Don't mean to be such a bummer with my last two posts.

One of my new SBs is over for dinner tonight and I have M&Gs Mon and Tue evenings. Hopefully more positive reports will come out of those.

Happy hunting!

Drummer

[QUOTE=JoesParty; 1446252]Well, not really, but M&G #3 with SB23 went very well last night.

But first, before I delve into the details, let me wish you, Mandy, all the best as you finish up your schoolwork for the semester. I've very much enjoyed your contributions here, and if this sounds like ass kissing, it probably is, because you sound like one awesome girl.

Now back to the topic at hand. M&G #2 with SB23, just last Wednesday, went so well that she suggested I stop by her strip club after work last night to meet again. Seeing as how it's not far from my office, who am I to refuse? Plus, I like to be able to window shop before I make a major purchase, and this seemed like the ideal situation in which to sample the goods before making any decisions.

I arrived a little before she was ready, as she had acquired a "surprise" for me and was making sure everything was perfect. When she emerged from the dressing room, I had to pick up my jaw off the floor. Oh. My. God. I knew she was attractive, but she obviously doesn't dress like this in public. She has the most perfectly-toned and tight little 23-year-old spinner body I've ever seen. Ever. And she's recently added some aftermarket see-cups for nice effect. Well done, SB23, well done. Oh, and the surprise (and I don't remember my telling her that this is one of my biggest turn-ons) was a sexy garter belt-cum-stockings outfit that showed off everything nicely.

We had a drink and a nice chat, and I watched her excellent moves during her stage set. She came back to chat for a while longer, and then we headed to the VIP for some private time. It was all good, clean fun, but the talk did turn sexy for a little while (favorite positions and so on). *She* brought up the subject of seeing each other again in a more, ahem, intimate location, which I consider a good sign. And we were able to reach a good compromise on sugar. Apropos of our recent discussions here, I proposed a bi-weekly allowance, to which she happily agreed. She is not comfortable with case-by-case P4P, saying that it would make her feel like a hooker. Not to rehash that discussion here again, but, at this point, I don't see her skipping out of town with my money, so we'll try the bi-weekly pay period plan for a while.

All in all, it was a great night, and, unless I am totally clueless, there are good times ahead. This is not to say that all is perfect in the sugar bowl, as I still have to figure out what to do with USB (unemployed SB). I am hoping that her impending start at a new job will make my decision for me, in that she'll have less time to play.

OK, that's enough for now. Enjoy the weekend, wherever it takes you, my friends.

Regards,

Joe[/QUOTE]

George, we have hashed this over multiple times but it is always fun to reiterate without rewriting the book.

Joe is absolutely correct and the review of this entire blog would be entertaining as well as informative. I have been on since the beginning and it is interesting to see how it has evolved. The direction most of us are going seems to be towards a higher quality Baby and away from the Nando 1 type girls who are desperately poor, substance addicted, and frequently active or semi pros who have often done time. I can't stress enough how important it is to date as " nice " a girl as possible who has ethics and a decent moral structure and upbringing. I know sugar dating and ethics could be an oxymoron, but times are changing. This is important because you are essentially putting control of your future in her hands and other anatomical parts. This is more so if you are married or have a sensitive job where going public could harm you.

Ah / falling in love / lust is so fine and I am "in love" with my SB as are many of our brothers here. We tend to confuse true love with true lust I believe. The lustful passionate part of any relationship lasts from 1 to 2 years where all reason tends to go out the door and we men are blithering idiots around a hot girl who (seems to) adores us (our money ). The operative word is "seem " and " money " The girls are mostly here for Sugar and in return they will treat us to the fantasy that we are seeking. The really smart, experienced, and mature SBs are fabulous actors and know where their bread is buttered, so they will perpetuate the fantasy. The not so smart ones will let their cover slip and it will be harder to "love " them. Now I personally believe that SDs and SBs can experience true love and even go on to an IRL relationship, but I would guess that it is a small minority. The rest of us experience the appearance and feeling of love, but our Sugars will ultimately go on with their real lives. Most want "the dream " a husband, good career. 2.2 kids, the white picket fence, BWW in the paved driveway, Beach cottage, you get the picture.

So the bottom line is to enjoy the ride but don't bet your future on your sexy SB making you her life's work. And guess what? What is the best way to ruin a good friendship? You got it! Marry her.