"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3985947]Interesting article in today's NYT:

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/style/sugar-dating-seeking-arrangement.html[/URL]

The guy had it coming for not playing the game in an honest and fair fashion and the article skirts around any mention of negative outcomes for him, so who knows if there were any or not. But it just goes to show how easily anonymity can be compromised, even when you think you've got a buttoned up plan with multiple fake names and numbers, as well as very little electronic footprint or paper trail to a hotel room.

Interesting read, even for the SJW NYT.[/QUOTE]I was giving that a read this morning. Interesting how the owner of Seeking puts things for the girls:

[I]If anything, a sugar baby hoping to find a lasting arrangement with [b]a good provider should withhold sex for as long as possible, said the thrice-divorced Mr. Wade[/b], who also runs other dating sites including OpenMinded.com, which promotes so-called ethical cheating. [b]The moment you give sex, you have lost all your power, he said[/b].[/I]

Clearly, after all he's done, he still has no idea how to deal with women selling their hoo-hoo.

Here's a link for anyone that might not have access to the NYT (due to paywall, etc.).

[URL=https://outline.com/BUgMqy]A Sugar Date Gone Sour[/URL]

Actually, my favorite part of the article is that for 1 k each (at least they thought), they wouldn't even let him have a 2nd round. Which was entirely because they thought they already had the money.

This is why you don't pay upfront. If they insist, you show it to them, put it somewhere but at best, giving it to them upfront only ensures that they will try to get you off as fast as they can and out the door.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3986596]I was giving that a read this morning. Interesting how the owner of Seeking puts things for the girls:

[I]If anything, a sugar baby hoping to find a lasting arrangement with [b]a good provider should withhold sex for as long as possible, said the thrice-divorced Mr. Wade[/b], who also runs other dating sites including OpenMinded.com, which promotes so-called ethical cheating. [b]The moment you give sex, you have lost all your power, he said[/b].[/I]

Clearly, after all he's done, he still has no idea how to deal with women selling their hoo-hoo.

Here's a link for anyone that might not have access to the NYT (due to paywall, etc.).

[URL=https://outline.com/BUgMqy]A Sugar Date Gone Sour[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3980635]I am seeking advice / strategy from seasoned SDs here. The target is a unicorn. 30's single mom, absolutely stunning, model quality, classy, lithe body, anatomy that is my ideal. Very simple-minded cosmetologist. Not anything like any other SB I have met off SA. She has a profile several years old, but on and off the site I take it. Reports a 4 year relationship (not arrangement) w / an independently wealthy married older guy. I see this girl as utterly without guile. She's not that experienced sexually, even shy about it.

She does have high $ expectations, but agreed to see me for what I could afford, 1 K / mo. I am supernice to all my SBs, I bought her a gift or two in addition to the sugar. I spent a month+ w / her and FCed once, + many other dates. A few things kept us apart for a while, then messaging just stopped, but she recently got back in touch. I usually interpret a revival of interest as horny and / or broke. It's not just first of month rent, though. Our first time she asked and I agreed to a pricey beach resort hotel room, but ongoing I would like her to host when her kid is with daddy. How do I play this?[/QUOTE]Hey Far,

I think your play is to approach her straightforwardly and openly. It sounds like you have a relationship that borders on Real Life, or its close approximation, and to my mind there's no reason not to behave like it. Tell her you were hurt and disappointed that she went dark on you, and you're glad to reconnect, but things have to be different now. Then lay out your new parameters, whatever they may be.

Her options then are to accept, modify, or disappear again, any of which you have to be prepared for. It's only when we can't accept the downside of any situation that we lose control and power over it. If you can reconcile yourself to the possibility that you won't see her again, and are good with that, then there's nothing she can do that will make you do something you don't want.

Just my opinion, but ou need to let her know that the rules have changed, and if she wants to get back together, this is how it will be. Do it all in a thoughtful and open way, and you may be surprised.

Hope this was helpful. Let us know how it goes!

Scott.

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3985947]Interesting article in today's NYT:

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/style/sugar-dating-seeking-arrangement.html[/URL]

The guy had it coming for not playing the game in an honest and fair fashion and the article skirts around any mention of negative outcomes for him, so who knows if there were any or not. But it just goes to show how easily anonymity can be compromised, even when you think you've got a buttoned up plan with multiple fake names and numbers, as well as very little electronic footprint or paper trail to a hotel room.

Interesting read, even for the SJW NYT.[/QUOTE]He got busted primarily b / c he used a credit card. I am a strictly cash guy. It is inconvenient at times, my main way to generate it is gambling.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3987002]He got busted primarily b / c he used a credit card. I am a strictly cash guy. It is inconvenient at times, my main way to generate it is gambling.[/QUOTE]The main reason he got busted was because he was a deuschbag. If you can't afford to play right, then get out of the game. He was a boy among men. People like him make it a lot harder for the rest.

[QUOTE=ErnestLl;3970101]Met a MILF on SA back in August. She drove an hour to meet me, fun fuck, reasonable damage. Lots of naked pics along the way from her. Her profile is since gone.

Tried to meet up again in September, but I had to cancel -- both times the night before. Silence for weeks.

Then I get texts "It took some work, but I foudn out who you are and am going to tell your wife bedause you stuck me with a hotel bill" Have no idea of this is true, but not wanting to press my luck. Tried to get her on the phone, she wouldn't answer.

Thought I got her to calm down by paypaling her the $140 she claims she ws out of pocket. No hits on the number she is using or on the email address or name linked to her paypal.

Then she launches into a tirade, long and short is she quit her PT job because she thoguht she would be seeing me a couple of times a month. Blah blah blah. Then "don't ever ccontact me again".

Then today I get "See me today". I don't respond. "Ill be at your office at 1" I don't respond, and its 215 and no sign of her.

Then I get another message from a different 804 # saying "I found your photo online that you are married and you like young SBs and rough sex" # tried calling my google voice but no VM left. No hits on that #, but I know its a Sprint #, same as the nut.

I'm thinking silence is the best approach.[/QUOTE]Was the chick's name Nicole? I had a similar situation way back in the spring, and the chick tried to shake me down. IT was a bad weekend but I chose to ignore the ***** and she eventually went away. Be careful out there my friends.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway;3980635]I am seeking advice / strategy from seasoned SDs here. The target is a unicorn. 30's single mom, absolutely stunning, model quality, classy, lithe body, anatomy that is my ideal. Very simple-minded cosmetologist. Not anything like any other SB I have met off SA. She has a profile several years old, but on and off the site I take it. Reports a 4 year relationship (not arrangement) w / an independently wealthy married older guy. I see this girl as utterly without guile. She's not that experienced sexually, even shy about it.

She does have high $ expectations, but agreed to see me for what I could afford, 1 K / mo. I am supernice to all my SBs, I bought her a gift or two in addition to the sugar. I spent a month+ w / her and FCed once, + many other dates. A few things kept us apart for a while, then messaging just stopped, but she recently got back in touch. I usually interpret a revival of interest as horny and / or broke. It's not just first of month rent, though. Our first time she asked and I agreed to a pricey beach resort hotel room, but ongoing I would like her to host when her kid is with daddy. How do I play this?[/QUOTE]So I just ended a "long term" arrangement with a married SB who insisted on a weekly allowance. It's not my gig but there was just something about the woman and we really hit it off. She was just sexy as hell and very safe, if you know what I mean. I know everything about her professionally so I knew she was legit and was willing to try it out to see where it would go. She was into dates and we only visited the FC once as well. But there were lots of other non-FC sessions that made it fun for both of us. I won't go into details but suffice to say, it kept me entertained for those six weeks. But I'm in the bowl because I like to get laid and this wasn't really giving me the amount of FC time that I demand and I couldn't really afford to play with other SBs (although I did) like I wanted to. So I pulled the plug and have written it off as a fun experience and won't look back.

There's just too much fine ass out there for me to tie myself down with one SB for any length of time, especially one that isn't providing the physical activities one desires. I regretted saying goodbye for about 48 hours and then met a new SB in the FC a day later and whaddya know, I don't really miss her all that much any more!

[QUOTE=LongLasting;3988304]The main reason he got busted was because he was a deuschbag. If you can't afford to play right, then get out of the game. He was a boy among men. People like him make it a lot harder for the rest.[/QUOTE]While I don't agree with or do things like he did, assuming this was one of a string of hits, that "[B]boy among men[/B]" seems to have gotten quite a bit of pussy for free. LOL.

[QUOTE=RogerOver;3990883]While I don't agree with or do things like he did, assuming this was one of a string of hits, that "[B]boy among men[/B]" seems to have gotten quite a bit of pussy for free. LOL.[/QUOTE]This is the first version I've heard of this but have heard plenty of scams where the girls get no help. There's one guy here locally who preys on newbies and gets it for free. The girls he targets are naive and make mistakes most wouldn't, but he finds them and takes advantage.

Now guys like this ass in the story do make it harder for those of us who are legit and respectful, but my sympathy is limited for this gal. No winners here. As far as they knew this guy spent money for them to have their hair done, pick the hotel and was dropping 1 k on each of them, as much as a girl will ever see on there for 1 meet. In other words they should've been feeling like they stumbled upon a unicorn and bent over backwards to make him happy. Instead, after thinking they had been paid 1 k each, they tell him no to a 2nd round LOL.

That reference in there about the other friend being involved in litigation with someone she met on a dating app, tells you all you need to know about these two. These are the types of gals you hope to never encounter on there. But if your type is the spoiled, needy self centered princess instead of the nice, sweet pleaser you'll probably meet plenty of them.

Let's all have a serious open discussion about protecting ourselves. Lets be real, with the digital footprints these days, you can be found. Unless your James Bond, any computer savvy or semi creative minded girl can track you down. And especially if you've been at this game for a while, you're out there.

Also, we have been hearing more and more about fake allegations threats and even allegations made. Not just the outright scammers, extortionists and blackmailers. So first let me start by saying, any man on here or otherwise who sexually assaults, rapes, or even manipulates a girl into sex who doesn't want it, can go burn in the pits of hell. Fuck you if that is your game. I am talking about the nice guy, just trying to relive some youth and he dates some of these girls and everything is fully fun and consensual going both ways and then she later decided she is going to play games. Or her boyfriend finds out that she didn't tell you about and demands she say it was assault, rape, etc. This shit really happens. And the thing most of you do not understand, is the game is 10000% and "he said, she said" if she decides to go that route.

So what do we SD do to protect ourselves? Hidden video cameras? That too can get you in trouble, even criminally. Audio record your adventures? Some legal issues there potentially as well depending on the state your in. So what the hell do you do? What do you do if you run into a girl who was "Screaming fuck" me daddy as she cums, loves the sex with you, asks for more and then later has guilt for cheating on her boyfriend, or husband? You are alone with these girls to be playing and you really don't fully know any of them.

The above are real aspects of potential disasters of dating in the bowl most of you overlook. And by the time you have to face one these issues, you are behind in protecting yourself. If you ever face one these issues, it will rock your world to the core! All for what? Doing what men have done since the beginning of time. Wanting sex with a nice woman.

Another thing, check ID's. Check their ID's upside down and inside out if you even think she's under like 25. Check it and check that it all backs up. Won't matter one bit if you met her at a bar smoking, drinking and talking about the Yankees, looking 22 and she is under age. You are fucked! There is no defense. And many can have fake I'd's as well. So go beyond just checking the I'd. Get her name, find out where she went to school, where she's worked etc and this way you know she is of proper age. Age of consent is often 16 in many states, but first of all, you are a fucking creep if you're trying to shag a 16 year old, legal or not and when there is money and texting and sexting involved, she is still a minor. You should not be trying to see any girl under say 19.

Ask her about her sexual experience. Your days of hunting virgins should be over. You should want her to be sexually experienced. Less chance for issues. You should want her to be a girl who desires sex, because she's had it before and enjoyed it.

So looking to startup some serious conversations here on protecting ourselves from scammers, extortionists, blackmailers etc, because my brothers they are out there! So lets say you get one. She finds out who you are, you have an SO, a high profile job, etc and she threaten to expose you. How do you handle it? You have a threat of her making a false allegation with maybe subtle suggestions of extortion. How do you handle it? I think you handle it right out of the gate, the moment you meet her. By preparing. Also, do not ever give in to threats. I say keep them talking, find out who they are, save all messages and then let them know you will go to the police if they say another thing.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;3991183]So looking to startup some serious conversations here on protecting ourselves from scammers, extortionists, blackmailers etc, because my brothers they are out there! So lets say you get one. She finds out who you are, you have an SO, a high profile job, etc and she threaten to expose you. How do you handle it? You have a threat of her making a false allegation with maybe subtle suggestions of extortion. How do you handle it? I think you handle it right out of the gate, the moment you meet her. By preparing. Also, do not ever give in to threats. I say keep them talking, find out who they are, save all messages and then let them know you will go to the police if they say another thing.[/QUOTE]You bring up some good defensive strategies, none of which eliminates risk, but mitigates it to a large degree. Which is fundamentally what it boils down to: there's risk, no way around it. Do everything you can to minimize it up front, and have thought through some strategies in the event that a particular SB blows up in your face.

If you're facing an SB who's going the blackmail route, that's been pretty well-documented here. Hit back hard with the fact that your consensual activities may carry a social stigma but they are not illegal. Unlike blackmail, which is quite illegal.

If you're facing a false accusation of assault, then you are indeed in a tough spot depending on how much the SB is willing to double-down. The only defense here is to not find yourself in that position in the first place. Which involves due diligence, the ability to read people, and an extra-sensitive BS meter. None of which are foolproof, which comes back to the fact that the risks are never zero.

A side-effect of my own approach to the bowl has its own natural defenses. Many people have pointed out that this is a numbers game. Which is true when you're trying to winnow down the POTS that can be turned into SB's. But there's an inverse numbers game to be played, which is to be patient, have a very high standard in the quality of the SB, and be seeking long-term arrangements rather than a revolving door of a new SB every few weeks. The more SB's you meet, the higher the chances you'll end up in the FC with a lot of different girls. But the more girls you land there, the higher the chance you hit a bat-shit crazy one that slipped under your radar.

My serial-monogamy, longer-term relationship approach does not fit what a lot of SD's are looking (or able) to do. But I'm now in a life situation where that's feasible and is something I prefer. I'd like to believe that it also contains some of the risks involved.

[QUOTE=Walruscl;3981709]From the OP description, unclear that she would see her behavior as building up FC debt, so it's probably walk.[/QUOTE]I would say it's highly unlikely that she's had even a twinkle of a thought about "FC Debt". Women don't think that way -- I think they generally feel their mere existence and presence carries enough value to be worth four figures / month.

In my mind, OP should get clear in his mind what he wants, and artfully escalate toward that. This means arrange dates with logistics to the FC in mind, make suggestions and ease her in the direction of ending dates (or sometimes making the entire date) at the FC. Watch her behavior -- what she does here will be telling. The medium is the message, and if the message isn't what OP is looking for (even though she might be a delightful person), he needs to adjust the sugar -- that is, if she has dates where she "doesn't feel like having sex" he can certainly have dates where he "doesn't feel like giving cash", or simply realize that they're both not on the same page and let the relationship fade away.

[QUOTE=Walruscl;3992661]You bring up some good defensive strategies, none of which eliminates risk, but mitigates it to a large degree. Which is fundamentally what it boils down to: there's risk, no way around it. Do everything you can to minimize it up front, and have thought through some strategies in the event that a particular SB blows up in your face.

If you're facing an SB who's going the blackmail route, that's been pretty well-documented here. Hit back hard with the fact that your consensual activities may carry a social stigma but they are not illegal. Unlike blackmail, which is quite illegal.

If you're facing a false accusation of assault, then you are indeed in a tough spot depending on how much the SB is willing to double-down. The only defense here is to not find yourself in that position in the first place. Which involves due diligence, the ability to read people, and an extra-sensitive BS meter. None of which are foolproof, which comes back to the fact that the risks are never zero.

A side-effect of my own approach to the bowl has its own natural defenses. Many people have pointed out that this is a numbers game. Which is true when you're trying to winnow down the POTS that can be turned into SB's. But there's an inverse numbers game to be played, which is to be patient, have a very high standard in the quality of the SB, and be seeking long-term arrangements rather than a revolving door of a new SB every few weeks. The more SB's you meet, the higher the chances you'll end up in the FC with a lot of different girls. But the more girls you land there, the higher the chance you hit a bat-shit crazy one that slipped under your radar.

My serial-monogamy, longer-term relationship approach does not fit what a lot of SD's are looking (or able) to do. But I'm now in a life situation where that's feasible and is something I prefer. I'd like to believe that it also contains some of the risks involved.[/QUOTE]It's like the perfect storm has come together. We have more sex and sexual adventures more readily available then ever before, coupled with a "trend, an in thing, a turning a regret into an allegation, you are owed and deserving as a young woman, because you laid down and played". Again, any guy who is assaulting women, can eat shit. But we see every day the more graying of these topics and we men, really have to be careful. My questions bringing up this topic, is what can we do to protect ourselves? And also, how to handle attempts to be strong armed.

I can honestly say I've treated every sugar baby I've been with very nicely, fairly and tried to be more then just sex with them all. I actually enjoyed all aspects of what sugar dating can be. But I've learned all to well, that most of these girls are half nuts, if not fully crazy and many of literally capable of anything. And I do not say that lightly. Some of these girls, LITERALLY think they are entitled to extort, blackmail, or threaten you because they gave it up to you. And often times, being the ultra nice guy, gets you into more trouble. They see you as soft and an easy mark.

I agree with the heavy screening upfront, but you cannot ever really tell for sure. So many girls, I've seen started out, sweet, a bit shy, even loving in nature and then when it ends, they get crazy.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38;3993380]It's like the perfect storm has come together. We have more sex and sexual adventures more readily available then ever before, coupled with a "trend, an in thing, a turning a regret into an allegation, you are owed and deserving as a young woman, because you laid down and played". Again, any guy who is assaulting women, can eat shit. But we see every day the more graying of these topics and we men, really have to be careful. My questions bringing up this topic, is what can we do to protect ourselves? And also, how to handle attempts to be strong armed.

I can honestly say I've treated every sugar baby I've been with very nicely, fairly and tried to be more then just sex with them all. I actually enjoyed all aspects of what sugar dating can be. But I've learned all to well, that most of these girls are half nuts, if not fully crazy and many of literally capable of anything. And I do not say that lightly. Some of these girls, LITERALLY think they are entitled to extort, blackmail, or threaten you because they gave it up to you. And often times, being the ultra nice guy, gets you into more trouble. They see you as soft and an easy mark.

I agree with the heavy screening upfront, but you cannot ever really tell for sure. So many girls, I've seen started out, sweet, a bit shy, even loving in nature and then when it ends, they get crazy.[/QUOTE]Probably because it basically comes down to the two motivations of sugar babies: they are either in it for money and support, or they have genuine daddy issues and are seeking something emotional out of it to help patch up their lives, or some combination of the two. This means that sugar baby sites are not exactly fertile ground for meeting highly stable women.

There are some SBs, however, that are not basket cases. An asian girl I civvy dated (no sugar involved) was holding down a full time job, raising her kid alone, and working on her bachelors degree in computer science when we met. Never asked me for anything and I never gave her anything because she had "something real" potential and I didn't want to try it without entering money into the equation. She got a better paying job after her graduation, bought a house, etc. A few years later after we lost contact I run across her profile on a sugar daddy site (wasn't SA, I forget which one). She was a bit silly at times but not at all nuts. I'm pretty sure her idea of a sugar daddy was pretty much just an older, well accomplished mature guy who can hold a job. I think girls like her are the exception and not the rule, and most SBs are indeed a bit broken, but there are a lot of broken women to be met in mainstream civvy dating as well. It's almost like there is a physiological link between women who are really hot looking, and irrational behavior. Also it doesn't help that most true SBs are too young to have their shit together, maybe some of them balance out as they mature.

I guess I've been lucky as far as all the blackmail / extortion goes. A huge factor in that success has probably been not hanging around one for too long. I find it very easy to mitigate the clingy, stalker types by simply not being around them long enough for them to feel they have a deep investment in the situation.

For a long time, I was confused as to why my experiences with these girls was so different than what a lot of guys report on this forum. But then I see things like the article recently about the guy who pulled the Paypal scam, or I look at those SD blacklists and see some of the shit these girls are putting up with, and it confirms that some of the dudes are bat shit crazy as well, we just don't realize it because we don't interact with them.

With the exception of a couple of girls that drank too much and caused minor drama during the date, all of my encounters have ended well. I've had a few upset when I flat out told them I didn't want to see them anymore, but even that's rare because when I break it off, I typically make sure it can't be taken personally. Sometimes I just tell them I met "the one" and want to focus on that relationship which puts a positive spin on "please don't text me any more". Or I just come up with the usual business / family excuses, and keep repeating it until their texts taper off. Even then, I get random texts from most of them asking how I am, did I get married yet, etc.

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3993278]I would say it's highly unlikely that she's had even a twinkle of a thought about "FC Debt". Women don't think that way -- I think they generally feel their mere existence and presence carries enough value to be worth four figures / month.
[/QUOTE]Agree and do not believe in this concept, in arrangements or otherwise. Of the main human emotions, gratitude has the least motivational power. Now if you're developing a deep connection and treating it like dating and find value in social interactions, then of course kindnesses and spoiling are going to improve those social dates. But it's terrible advice for 99.9% of the people seeking more standard arrangements (FC visits each date) to say that past financial support for platonic meetings will pay off in the future in the FC. They consider that debt already paid by their mere presence, you're actually conditioning them to think that each time you pay them for a social date. The only way it will ever motivate the typical SB to go to the FC is fear of the gravy train being shut off.

FFA knows all this and so it's not directed at him but less experienced SD's than him should be disabused of this notion. This is especially important given the recent proliferation of professional Meet and Greeters who expertly string you along for paid dinners with zero intention of ever FC'ing, and other types of scams. This forum is littered with stories of girls ghosting after advances, loans, prepays, major gifts, etc.