"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3843230]Doc, (or anyone else), how do you personally manage that conversation? How do you let them know that the "sugar" is given only when sex happens? In my experience any conversation that explicitly states those terms rings the prostitute alarm in her head, and the whole interaction shuts down. Do you just avoid the topic altogether and assume they know the deal?

I've had a few really, really attractive POTS, university students, who have essentially expected to be compensated their standard gift each time we get together, whether it's dinner etc only, or if we end up in the bedroom. I have a feeling they were hoping to steer the relationship toward more platonic dates than not, and cashing in for the simple job of existing in my presence.[/QUOTE]I've yet to encounter this at all, but I also have avoided anyone under the age of 24. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to but it seems from the many reports out there that these SBs are really just looking for someone to pay their bills. The majority of M&Gs I've had led straight to the FC and that conversation was fairly straight forward such as, "I'll get a room and once you've determined I'm not a serial killer and we like each other, would you have a couple of hours for me?

I don't have the time or patience to build a relationship or just hang out with a sexy young thing. I'm on SA because I'm on a mission!

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3843230]Doc, (or anyone else), how do you personally manage that conversation? How do you let them know that the "sugar" is given only when sex happens? In my experience any conversation that explicitly states those terms rings the prostitute alarm in her head, and the whole interaction shuts down. Do you just avoid the topic altogether and assume they know the deal?

I've had a few really, really attractive POTS, university students, who have essentially expected to be compensated their standard gift each time we get together, whether it's dinner etc only, or if we end up in the bedroom. I have a feeling they were hoping to steer the relationship toward more platonic dates than not, and cashing in for the simple job of existing in my presence.

One was a post-grad hippy who I met a couple times (coffee, and then dinner) and REALLY hit it of with. The conversation we had was intelligent and effortless, but the logistics weren't there for sex that night. She brought up sugar, and her expectations were pretty high. She wanted $400/ meet, agreed to $300, and said that a previous SD paid her $700/ meet. She also clarified that she expected sugar whether our date ended in the FC or not. I paid for dinner but didn't end up seeing her again; her terms felt too rich.

Another was a very cute asian freshman who had her act together, but she stated she wanted $12000 (basically her semester's tuition, and preferred I simply pay the bill instead of giving her the $) up front. Obviously this kind of arrangement has red flags all over it, and was probably a scam. I'm sure she would have ended up ghosting after the bill was paid, and of course I would have no recourse. I was unable to negotiate her to a fairly significant per-meet allowance. I'm not even sure I have enough spare time in my life to have $12 K worth of sex over the course of a semester.

A third was a POT I met on a business trip in a location I frequent. She was young and very pretty, and again, effortless intelligent conversation, but wanted $500/meet. I thought, doable for me as a business trip treat, and the way things were going it seemed as if she would be more than willing to spend the entire night when we got together. I saw her three times on an extended trip and based on how well we were hitting it off, offered sugar on the third date, expecting we would end up back at my hotel. She very deftly avoided the opportunity for sex to happen. When I gave her $200 in an effort to be seen as a trustworthy SD even though in hindsight she manipulated the schedule and her availability to avoid the FC, even though she knew my hopes and expectations for the evening, she was pissed and blocked me on SA.[/QUOTE]I do not use any terms related to sex in any way as how I describe when the allowance occurs. I will tell them right up front, I never offer any allowance for a meet and greet. What I say, is that I start my allowance when she is comfortable enough to spend, "Alone time" together. Saying things like, "when panties hit the floor" etc could yield you issues.

Another thing I've found common on SA, is about 60% of the girls on there, are into girls. You can so easily setup threesomes and even mini orgy parties etc. I aim for girls off SA who want an experience, as much or more than an allowance and there are plenty to be found. In fact, I'd say 1/3 of the girls I've seen, did not even require an allowance. But then again, without sounding arrogant, I'm not a bad looking dude. I've had so many younger women want to date off of there, but I will never go down that road again.

Another thing you can be assure of, is you'll likely know within 2-3 minutes if she's going back to the FC with you, if you have any knack for reading women. Unless she is just a real awkward type and closed off. I usually know by their very first expression as they come and sit down, if I'm in or not. So if she frowns, or is hesitant, or looks at you like a disgusting dirty ole man, it's best to cut your losses and just get out of the painful dinner or drinks. Funny thing is, I had about a 30/30 consecutive run of success rate of girls I met with and taking them to the FC and then BAM, three strike outs in a row and I started questioning myself. LOL. Had I lost my game? Well all the sugar dating and consecutive days of drinking partying etc, was giving me a run down worn look, so I took a month off, hit the gym and got myself back on track. And now I've taken the past 5 in a row back. So you need to keep yourself sharp. Even if you're a decent looking, if you look run down and ragged, these girls will shy away from you.

[blue][Deleted by Admin]

See where it says "Report Post?"

A2[/blue]

Never, ever believe what they "got" from their previous SD. It's a number that is purely imaginary and it's high to make you feel cheap and make you step up your budget. Any girl getting that kind of money (many, many hundreds) would stick to that guy like a tick on a dog. And yet here she is, hat in hand asking for some support from you.

#2 was definitely playing you. You would have been lucky to see her once or twice before she found some reason that prevented her some seeing you again. This one is a cold, calculating, manipulative con artist.

Maybe you thought you hit it off but basically all three were not really into you and were just trying to milk you before moving on to their next target. Keep working on your game, develop a sense if she actually likes you, and keep getting more experience. She knows within seconds of meeting you if she's attracted to you or not. If she's not closing the deal within 1 or 2 dates, you have your answer... Just move on.

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3843230]One was a post-grad hippy who I met a couple times (coffee, and then dinner) and REALLY hit it of with. The conversation we had was intelligent and effortless, but the logistics weren't there for sex that night. She brought up sugar, and her expectations were pretty high. She wanted $400/ meet, agreed to $300, and said that a previous SD paid her $700/ meet. She also clarified that she expected sugar whether our date ended in the FC or not. I paid for dinner but didn't end up seeing her again; her terms felt too rich.

Another was a very cute asian freshman who had her act together, but she stated she wanted $12000 (basically her semester's tuition, and preferred I simply pay the bill instead of giving her the $) up front. Obviously this kind of arrangement has red flags all over it, and was probably a scam. I'm sure she would have ended up ghosting after the bill was paid, and of course I would have no recourse. I was unable to negotiate her to a fairly significant per-meet allowance. I'm not even sure I have enough spare time in my life to have $12 K worth of sex over the course of a semester.

A third was a POT I met on a business trip in a location I frequent. She was young and very pretty, and again, effortless intelligent conversation, but wanted $500/meet. I thought, doable for me as a business trip treat, and the way things were going it seemed as if she would be more than willing to spend the entire night when we got together. I saw her three times on an extended trip and based on how well we were hitting it off, offered sugar on the third date, expecting we would end up back at my hotel. She very deftly avoided the opportunity for sex to happen. When I gave her $200 in an effort to be seen as a trustworthy SD even though in hindsight she manipulated the schedule and her availability to avoid the FC, even though she knew my hopes and expectations for the evening, she was pissed and blocked me on SA.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=EvilTmp;3843561]Never, ever believe what they "got" from their previous SD. It's a number that is purely imaginary and it's high to make you feel cheap and make you step up your budget. Any girl getting that kind of money (many, many hundreds) would stick to that guy like a tick on a dog. And yet here she is, hat in hand asking for some support from you.

#2 was definitely playing you. You would have been lucky to see her once or twice before she found some reason that prevented her some seeing you again. This one is a cold, calculating, manipulative con artist.

Maybe you thought you hit it off but basically all three were not really into you and were just trying to milk you before moving on to their next target. Keep working on your game, develop a sense if she actually likes you, and keep getting more experience. She knows within seconds of meeting you if she's attracted to you or not. If she's not closing the deal within 1 or 2 dates, you have your answer... Just move on.[/QUOTE]A Dean of this thread, JZLizard, has said that a girl who agrees to M&G has already decided she will fuck you if the deal is right (provided you haven't misrepresented yourself w / pix, etc.). Many people say that if the M&G ends without an agreement, you won't ever get one, but I don't agree. I actually like the dating part, and I plan / tell them that a meet or 2 or 3 is usual for me before 'alone time'. Again I think this signals to the girl she's not a hooker in your eyes, you're trying to get to know her. As long as there's no sugar for those dates, it's fine. Laying the groundwork for laying the SB.

[QUOTE=Madaboutmax;3837305]You may be correct, but I'm glad there are many very attractive young women willing to be SB's that would never consider themselves to be escorts or go on backpage. Overnights and multiple rounds with less cost than a typical back page girl for an hour.

Let me live in my fantasy world!! LOL.[/QUOTE]I echo Max's comment. Once I was introduced to SA several months ago, I've never looked at going back to the other pros. The main reason is because with two rare occasions, all of the SBs with whom I've met have ended up being so much more of the GFE than I ever got from P411, Eros or any of the other pro sites I used to frequent. Minimum of two hours, overnights, dinner, lots of extracurricular activity, and lots and lots of passion. I also suspect they are probably far more low volume (okay, let ME live in my fantasy world!) than those pros who claim they are low volume but what do I know?

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3843230]Doc, (or anyone else), how do you personally manage that conversation? How do you let them know that the "sugar" is given only when sex happens? In my experience any conversation that explicitly states those terms rings the prostitute alarm in her head, and the whole interaction shuts down. Do you just avoid the topic altogether and assume they know the deal?
.[/QUOTE]I follow a strict process, and when I follow it, it is almost obvious to them that they have to give sugar to get sugar. In some rare cases, I may have to spell it out to them. It is all about setting the scene for the action. The process I describe below applies only to "genuine sugar babies", not escorts, UTRs and other scammers on the site. I have had my fair share of mongering in the past, but I am on SA to get a different experience. In am looking for a little bit more connection, hanging out with them rather than walking straight to the FC. Also, I am not looking for very cheap fun, and willing to spend in the range of 200-500 per date depending on the quality (although most of my dates were around 200 surprisingly). The process begins with the first message to the girl. I send a fairly lengthy message where I clearly state my "rules" such as no online arrangement, no allowance for M&G, not sending money via paypal etc. But, I don't say that I expect intimacy for them to be able to get allowance, although it is kind of implied in the message (you have to be careful not to get banned by SA), I am over 50, and don't have any pics in my profile (for privacy reasons), so I have to be pretty convincing for girls at 20-24 range (my normal target age) to message me back. Although I am assertive in my tone in the first message, I have it crafted in such a way they perceive me as a caring, and a respectful guy who is very straightforward, but shouldn't be messed with. I cast a wide net (100 mile radius) and send lots of messages. I get responses probably about less than 10% , but the ones who respond are the ones who are willing to play by my rules. At least they had the patience to read through my lengthy message.

I set up the M&G around 11 AM or 5 PM so that once we meet and if I am willing to move forward, I can ask her to go to lunch or dinner with me. If she agrees, it is a good sign. If not, that girl is crossed off (I do ask them how does her rest of the day look like when I set up the meet so that I know she actually is available). Remember, we are still under the "no allowance M&G' mode. The dinner gives me more time to study her and get in to deep conversations. If I like what I see, I tell her right away that I am willing to go on a date. I still don't talk about the "intimacy" issue unless she brings it up. If she does, I say I do expect it, but don't tie it to allowance yet (remember she hasn't negotiated the allowance yet). I would say something like "intimacy is a part of whole SB / SD arrangement package, and it makes the experience better, but it is not what this is all about". So when we set up the next date, I still don't volunteer to talk about allowance. But most girls do bring it up. Then I would say, I give allowance when I get the "complete" experience which is the foundation for a long-term arrangement. We already discussed the complete experience at our first meet. She knows what the complete experience is. At this point, all the rinsers who are expecting allowance for nothing are going to drop off. So, only girls who are willing to go on a date with no expectation of an allowance are the true SB's for me, and they are the ones I am after. They may talk about "chemistry" and "getting to know you better" etc. I will play along and not argue with them, they are basically trying to justify themselves what they are going to do. It is possible some of them still may be after a free dinner, but I had spend time with her before, I know if I like her company or not, so in the worst case I spend money on a dinner, not a big deal. From now on I treat her very well, and actually give her a small gift (50-100 range) after the date. If they are willing to go on another date we are into something. This date, I am laying out the ground work for FC by saying "alone time" or "private time' at the end of the date. If they don't agree for FC on this second date, the chances of my success of getting there at anytime is almost nil. So, I cut out my losses there. I haven't still spent lots of funds. If they agree, that is it. In my experience, when it comes through like that it is a much better experience than just going straight to FC. I have had wonderful FC experiences like that, but finding such girls is a rarity. It is lots of work though. I have no SO, and have reasonable flexibility at my work to find time, so it works for me. May be not for everyone. I guess I enjoy the 'process of hunting' not just the outcome. It is fascinating how these girls sometimes think. We have to guide them what is realistic and what is not without offending them. As much as I found good girls though this process, I also have rejected scale 10 gorgeous hotties when they insisted allowance without the promise of intimacy. It is part of the process, and you have to be disciplined. At least I had a dinner with that hottie (whom I had very little chance of convincing to go to a dinner with me if not though SA).

It is all about mind games and playing alone with all conflicts they go though with the idea of going to a FC with a stranger (I know that they know what they a signing up for, but there is a human side to it). The more they trust you, more chances of going to FC. BTW, I do expect LTR with them, so I am not deceiving them anyway either. It you are in to reading, get the following book and read. Most of the behaviors I see with SBs can be explained once you read it, and if you can detect behaviors controlled by chimp brain. Very interesting book. "The Chimp Paradox: The Mind Management Program to Help You Achieve Success, Confidence, and Happiness ".

Stay Safe,

Dr. S.

I think you all are overthinking this way too much. Most girls on SA that are legit know the deal. Weed out the ones that are scammers or platonic only and then have fun.

[QUOTE=MrDisDat;3841495][URL]https://www.seekingarrangement.com/member/a0445fbe-2952-4c25-afd3-5caa8b6b17a9[/URL]

Any information on her? Currently talking to her but her spproach for allowance and lists of "Don'ts" just turned me off![/QUOTE]Talking to her currently and she wants 450 to 500 per meet range, told her way more than what I can pay, waiting for reply. Will update.

Never pay over 250 for her age, I am used to younger which I did max of 350.

[QUOTE=DrSummer]I follow a strict process, and when I follow it, it is almost obvious to them that they have to give sugar to get sugar. <snip> [/QUOTE]Doc, thanks for such a detailed reply. There is a ton of great stuff in your post, and from what you wrote it's obvious I need to look at the whole sugar game a little differently. I'm going to start using pretty much everything you suggested. I underestimated the importance of avoiding the appearance of sugar being tied directly to sex (even though it really is), and enjoying the experience of dating itself. I'm too focused on being taken advantage of (because that's happened before), rather than having fun on the date.

I also like your idea about setting dates for 11 a or 5 p for the logistics of transitioning to dinner if she's impressive enough.

I'll check that book out. I got interested in psychology a few years ago while dating a woman who turned out to be borderline or NPD. Even after I sort of "figured her out" (to the extent possible) and setting boundaries that worked for me, and then ultimately splitting up with her because she insisted on constant drama and wasn't happy with a happy relationship, I am still fascinated by psychology.

[QUOTE=EvlTmp]Maybe you thought you hit it off but basically all three were not really into you and were just trying to milk you before moving on to their next target. Keep working on your game, develop a sense if she actually likes you, and keep getting more experience. She knows within seconds of meeting you if she's attracted to you or not. If she's not closing the deal within 1 or 2 dates, you have your answer... Just move on.[/QUOTE]True, the medium is the message.

I'm twice the age or more of the girls I'm going for, and I think men and women look at the sugar scene though their own lens. A lot of guys see an easy way to have sex quickly with the kind of women they otherwise would have a very hard time even meeting, much less going out with. Women see the dating aspect and imagine a very classy, wealthy, successful and well put together man, and in exchange for that they are willing to overlook the age gap to a larger degree.

So while I am successful, intelligent, classy and well mannered, I likely need to realize that I'm aging and focus on my attractiveness so you're right, I should work on my game and looks somewhat. I'm no where near "disgusting" but I could stand to lose a few and tighten up my presentation to help offset the age difference.

[QUOTE=FarFarAway]I actually like the dating part, and I plan / tell them that a meet or 2 or 3 is usual for me before 'alone time'. Again I think this signals to the girl she's not a hooker in your eyes, you're trying to get to know her. As long as there's no sugar for those dates, it's fine. Laying the groundwork for laying the SB.[/QUOTE]I'm seeing a theme in the replies here, and I probably need to concentrate on the dating aspect more than I have been. Build trust and try to create a vibe where we're both having fun.

[QUOTE=DirtyDeeds38]I do not use any terms related to sex in any way as how I describe when the allowance occurs. I will tell them right up front, I never offer any allowance for a meet and greet. What I say, is that I start my allowance when she is comfortable enough to spend, "Alone time" together. Saying things like, "when panties hit the floor" etc could yield you issues.

<snip>

I actually like the dating part, and I plan / tell them that a meet or 2 or 3 is usual for me before 'alone time'. Again I think this signals to the girl she's not a hooker in your eyes, you're trying to get to know her. As long as there's no sugar for those dates, it's fine. Laying the groundwork for laying the SB.[/QUOTE]I definitely don't use the "when the panties hit the floor" terminology with POTS, but I do like your line about starting allowance when she's comfortable enough for "alone time together. " I'll be stealing that one, thanks.

Why does a sb who, had 5-6 good fuck sessions w / me and told me she liked getting w / me all of a sudden just stop coming or talking / texting? I mean she is still on SA actively looking and I just don't get it, pisses me off, LOL.

The archives, much of the info you are seeking is found there. Our past dean of this thread JZLizard, doesn't seem to be around these days. It is important that everyone transition from an old, monger model to the new model for arrangements, and for SA, otherwise, SA will go the way of CL and BP, with attacks from activist district attorneys looking to make a name for themselves w / the a*hole holier-than-thou hypocrites.

Is there an abbreviation / terminology link I can reference? Some of you guys are dropping abbreviations that leave me clueless. What's FC? What's POTS? PM (private message) me if preferred.

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3846743] I underestimated the importance of avoiding the appearance of sugar being tied directly to sex (even though it really is), and enjoying the experience of dating itself. I'm too focused on being taken advantage of (because that's happened before), rather than having fun on the date.[/QUOTE]Yeah, don't want the SB to feel like an escort fwiw, even though essentially she is. PLUS, one needs to be careful of mentioning sugar and sex together or implying a connection while messaging on SA (run the risk of getting booted). Plus as we all know, offering anything of value for an understanding of sexual activities is illegal in all 50 states, except a few select NV counties (avoid those stings!

[QUOTE=Kwagmire;3846743]Doc, thanks for such a detailed reply. There is a ton of great stuff in your post, and from what you wrote it's obvious I need to look at the whole sugar game a little differently. I'm going to start using pretty much everything you suggested. I underestimated the importance of avoiding the appearance of sugar being tied directly to sex (even though it really is), and enjoying the experience of dating itself. I'm too focused on being taken advantage of (because that's happened before), rather than having fun on the date.

I also like your idea about setting dates for 11 a or 5 p for the logistics of transitioning to dinner if she's impressive enough.

I'll check that book out. I got interested in psychology a few years ago while dating a woman who turned out to be borderline or NPD. Even after I sort of "figured her out" (to the extent possible) and setting boundaries that worked for me, and then ultimately splitting up with her because she insisted on constant drama and wasn't happy with a happy relationship, I am still fascinated by psychology.

True, the medium is the message.

I'm twice the age or more of the girls I'm going for, and I think men and women look at the sugar scene though their own lens. A lot of guys see an easy way to have sex quickly with the kind of women they otherwise would have a very hard time even meeting, much less going out with. Women see the dating aspect and imagine a very classy, wealthy, successful and well put together man, and in exchange for that they are willing to overlook the age gap to a larger degree.

So while I am successful, intelligent, classy and well mannered, I likely need to realize that I'm aging and focus on my attractiveness so you're right, I should work on my game and looks somewhat. I'm no where near "disgusting" but I could stand to lose a few and tighten up my presentation to help offset the age difference.

I'm seeing a theme in the replies here, and I probably need to concentrate on the dating aspect more than I have been. Build trust and try to create a vibe where we're both having fun.

I definitely don't use the "when the panties hit the floor" terminology with POTS, but I do like your line about starting allowance when she's comfortable enough for "alone time together. " I'll be stealing that one, thanks.[/QUOTE]I don't know how to highlight one section of the quote here, but I responding to your part about cleaning up, staying in shape, etc. This is huge, as no younger girl wants to be pounded by an old obese slob, no offense to anyone. But facts are facts. I take this part of my game even further. I micro manage every aspect of my overall looks and health and you know what? Not only is it good for sugar dating, it's just good for overall health and well being. I basically bodybuild. I'm no pro, but could be a solid amateur bodybuilder. When I walk into meet these girls, they can tell, yes, I'm older, but to have my build, they know I have my shit together. I've had girls say they should be offering me allowance and a few probably meant it. I have little empathy for anyone who lets themselves totally go. So keep that in mind. My one vice that counters all this, is drinking. I do better with the girls when buzzed and loosened up, and since I'm dating them so much, I find myself having several drinks, multiple times per week and that has set me back. But drinking really helps me be more open as I can be a bit stiff without it.

My point is, if you're a 40 plus year old guy, get your hormones checked, get them in line and don; t just do some morning sit-ups and call it good, train your body, get in the best shape of you life and you'll do ten times better at this game. The girls will actually be into you! I speak from experience! And they best sex you can have with anyone, is someone having fun too and into it.

Two cents.