"Sugarbabies" / "Arrangements" Amateurs or Not?

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1819775]Gentlemen,

In perusing the journal as of late, it seems like many of us are winnowing our babies into one of three groups: keepers, one-offs and emergency-use-only.

With that in mind, I'd like to propose another acronym, BCB, or Booty Call Baby, for the latter category. I myself realize I have several of these, and they are usually hot-bodied little treasures, but will never make it into the realm of steady, regular rotation. They will never be ones that I deliberately make time for, but on the other hand I don't want to let them drift away.

Opinions?

Scott[/QUOTE]
Sorry, my brothers!
Did I miss the memo? I just read Fred's post, and it seems that this is already in play, at least by him. Bright minds and all that!

Carry on,

Scott

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1819738]Revvo,

This is a great idea! Don't know why I didn't think of it before. Right now I have my "gear" scattered among several hiding places, which I sometimes change and then forget about, affording me a [I]very[/I] Bracing shot of adrenaline until I find whatever it is, usually my phone. My one hesitation is that it brings all the incriminating evidence against you into one very convenient place, should it ever be found. Sort of like the "doomsday" packs the Bush administration was urging us to put together in case Bin Laden ever came calling, but in reverse. Instead of saving our lives, discovery of this kit would surely end it.

But I like the "grab and go" aspect. Out of curiosity, what all do you keep in there?

Scott[/QUOTE]I agree with both points. Having a singular toolkit makes it easier for deployment and docking operations. But on the off chance you get interrupted on the way to the garage (maybe your SO happens to be outside when you come home) , you basically have a nuclear device strapped to your chest or sitting in the car. I also take the "scatter" approach with my gear. With this approach you probably run a higher risk of a single piece of a evidence getting exposed at some point but there's less risk of a catastrophic failure.

But to be honest, I've been trying to avoid having any "physical" gear to deal with around the house. I don't use a burner phone. I use a GV# which can be destroyed remotely within a few minutes if I have access to a computer. I don't keep any condoms, massage lotions, or toys around. If I buy them it's for a one-time use, then I toss them or let the SB store / keep them. Everything else of note is digital and I regularly do a "fire drill" to practice quickly scrubbing and locking accounts. If I ever sense there's a real danger of serious exposure or trouble, I can basically scrub my digital activities in 15 minutes via laptop or smartphone.

It's really just a matter of staying diligent and not getting too relaxed. You can have the greatest scrubbing / cleanup routine but it doesn't do any good if you get sloppy or complacent (which is exactly what happened to me). Your routine though should tailor your individual situation. Revvo said his SO is very short, so putting things in a high place in a room she never visits works well. For me, even though my SO is short she regularly uses foot-stools to reach high places and she goes through various parts of the house randomly, there's no "off-limits" zone for her. But when it comes to tech and computers, her knowledge is very minimal, so keeping things digital is safer for me than having a burner phone lying around somewhere. So your routine should really counteract your SO's strength and weaknesses.

Excellent points John G. Definitley play to your SO's weaknesses. Miine is not the thorough type. So this helps.

Since I use GV. I do not have a lot in my kit. Just condoms and Visa Gift Cards. So it is quite simple. I travel as light as I can. Little to keep track of.

Nothing is foolproof there will always be risk.

Revvo

[QUOTE=Revvo; 1820336]Excellent points John G. Definitley play to your SO's weaknesses. Miine is not the thorough type. So this helps.

Since I use GV. I do not have a lot in my kit. Just condoms and Visa Gift Cards. So it is quite simple. I travel as light as I can. Little to keep track of.

Nothing is foolproof there will always be risk.

Revvo[/QUOTE]Great comments by Revvo and John. I plan to use GV and hoping there is no back tracing to your personal info.

Scott: Yes, I am married. But my big problem is not getting my needs satisfied. My SO acknowledge that as well.

I am enjoying this world but one problem though.

SDs that I met. Are pro UTRs. They told me the allowance upfront and when I reduced my amount, they reduced their time and frequency. Like 2-3 hours per meet and only twice a month. All of you in same boat? This is local only. There are SBs who can meet all day but allowance is too high. The one in NJ, is otherway around. Allowance is secondary. Though I assume is required. She asked me 1 time and then. Never discussed. But spent all day with her. Outdoor followed by indoor activities.

At this time. Have 1 good local SB, but clock watcher. And pro. Like to get allowance first. Which kind of disappointing, even after 2 meets by now.

I use GV for txting and calling. But I have only 1 cell which is used for business. So need to be careful. I fwd the txts from GV to my cell and try not to call using my cell. Calling is big problem. As my BB doesn't allow calling using Google voice. I may have to get a burner phone.

I am tired of all these detective stories. Lets see some pics.

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1819733]Greg,

Pay for everything you can with cash. Cash is your best friend. I've gotten discounts on hotel rooms when I show up and say I'm paying with Bennies. I've also gotten the clerk to erase my info from the computers. Look into Greendot cards, both for yourself and your babies. You can buy them with cash and refill them that way as well. Use them to book rooms online, pay for your meds (if you need them) , and use them when checking in for the "incidental charges." When you register the one for yourself, you will need to give them an address (I use my work one) and a valid SS. This is the one hole in the cloak of invisibility, but it is a small one unless your wife hires a lawyer, in which case your goose is cooked anyway. It won't be the point of first exposure if you've done everything else right as outlined in the clubhouse journal in past pages. And train yourself to throw away all receipts immediately, keep a "scrubbed" car, and clean out your pockets every day before you come home. Make it an inflexible routine and you lessen the chance of blowing your cover.

I forget if you told us, are you married?

Scott[/QUOTE]F. Scott points out the MAJOR hole with Green Dot. You have to use a valid SSN. Years ago I was able to get one by saying to the rep I forgot my SSN. I ditched that card once I married. And I wish I hadn't. Since the Patriot Act. Trying to get a card without a SSN is a no-go now, or my social engineering skills aren't what they use to be.

If you ever need to get a credit report for a mortgage / refinance etc, the Green Dot is going to show up. Then, you have some splaining to do Lucy if your wife or SO looks at the credit report.

I put a fair amount of time in attempts to find a card that is renewable and you don't have to provide a SSN. Most of what I found were very sketchy cards for people to gamble online.

What I do now is reserve rooms with a personal card that has my office address, and pay in cash at check-in. Be careful that the type of reservation ISN'T pre-paid. Also be sure and pay at check-in. Some hotels now run your card at midnight.

There's a small risk with the above approach as the hotel does a card validity check. A private detective would have to be really good to get that info. If the info is even kept (I originally thought not. But now a days I think everything is kept).

So, brothers, an unexpected twist in my journey. Pardon the novella.

Given that this pretty much violates all of the rules and collected wisdom here, I do not recommend that anyone follow in my footsteps. Although I would be interested to hear of those that did and had good outcomes.

I also apologize for how light on details I'm going to be. Perhaps I'm being excessively cautious (which will be laden with irony in a moment) , but the less identifiable the incident, the more comfortable I feel about mine and my SB's anonymity. I'll also ask that why'all give me some benefit of the doubt. I did think long and hard about doing what I did, and we had a very long heart-to-heart talk about where this was going to go before I took the leap.

So, without further ado.

Like most of you, I find "deep cover" to be an intense challenge. For me, also a source of stress. But when a thermonuclear event hangs in the balance, you do what you have to. And I've been doing a decent job of it, with the exception that if hotels suddenly started posting their nightly guest list to the Internet I'd be totally cooked.

But then, in the process of arranging a visit to the FC, I ran into a combination of logistic hurdles that had me over a barrel. This particular visit had been planned, cancelled, planned again, cancelled, and the ducks were finally in a row. So when things started to go awry, I was very motivated to keep things on track, which is partly how I ended up where I did.

The overall shape of the situation was that the initial logistic hurdle was pretty much going to guarantee a blown cover. Additionally, at least for this somewhat unique visit, there were some other sudden complications that were most easily solved by just dispensing with deep cover.

Which is exactly what I did.

I already knew where she worked, almost exactly where she lived, and it was clear that I could at least make life very complicated for her if I wanted to. During our heart-to-heart, I mentioned this and assured her that I had no desire to or interest in doing anything remotely like that. But the fact remained that I'd really only be comfortable if there were some "Mutually Assured Destruction" dynamic in place. So to her credit, my SB broke her cover first, before I even committed to doing so myself. She also told me some of her deeper secrets (which were verifiable later) , the nature of which made it even more clear that if I wanted to cause trouble, it would cut deep.

Of course, a young SB always has much less to lose than a SD in a stable family.

But as I've read time and again here, the odds of sustaining deep cover with a long-term SB go down over time. So in some ways this was just another point on the risk continuum, and was probably inevitable anyway. It helped that even though the MAD was still asymmetric, it wasn't as asymmetric as most.

While I've only known her for a couple of months, we've communicated every day. Her biggest fault seems to be that she suffered some unusually harsh consequences to what were fairly normal lapses in adolescent judgment. Yet despite it all she has a sweet disposition, and there isn't the faintest whiff of vindictiveness. Which in the end was what finally tipped me.

So we traded peeks at our ID's, and rather than a hotel I took her to my guaranteed-to-be-empty-for-the-duration house. This introduced new dimensions to deep cover-leaving no trace in the house, not attracting notice of neighbors, etc. Having her there was a weird mix of relief yet new stress. So future home visits will be very rare. But in this specific case it made it much easier for me to maintain appearances.

So here I am, in this very unexpected place. On one hand, it feels like a big weight off my shoulders: only one deception to manage now. My SB made it very clear she understood what a big deal this was, and was honored (her words) to be able to share in a piece of the world I inhabit. If my demeanor didn't make it obvious that I lead a comfortable if unglamorous life, seeing it in person certainly should have.

On the other hand, I'm keenly aware that I've potentially added another fuse to the time bomb. But the time bomb was there to begin with, and there's innumerable ways it could blow. From the war stories here it seems like it's usually the thing you *don't* see coming that sets it off.

One could argue that perhaps I shouldn't be in the bowl to begin with. My deep cover collapsed in a matter of months. I certainly wouldn't be able to multi-task like some of the superstars on here. I'm fortunate to have found one very nice situation, and I'm enjoying it while it lasts. It's unclear that once it inevitably passes that I would have the fortitude to do it again. With the mind-bending memories we're making in the meantime, I'm not sure I'll have the need.

Be more careful than me out there.

[QUOTE=KingGreg; 1820366]Great comments by Revvo and John. I plan to use GV and hoping there is no back tracing to your personal info.

I use GV for txting and calling. But I have only 1 cell which is used for business. So need to be careful. I fwd the txts from GV to my cell and try not to call using my cell. Calling is big problem. As my BB doesn't allow calling using Google voice. I may have to get a burner phone.[/QUOTE]If you forward GV to phone registered to your name, Google can make the connection easily.

I use GV and a burner phone. I only forward to my phone prior to a meeting. I give my burner number to women whom I trust enough not to become stalkers or such. A rare few over the years have been given my personal number.

I like GV because I can also send and receive txt on my computer. To prevent Google from connecting the account to real me, I use a Virtual Machine (VM) that is used ONLY for mongering. The VM is encrypted on my laptop. I VPN (VPN account purchased via a gift card) from the virtual machine at boot. This way, hopefully, my mongering account cookies and IP's are never connected to the real me.

While the above seems pretty paranoid,"only the paranoid survive" as said by Andy Grove. The good of the above is that I think it does a reasonable job of keeping a wide moot between real me and monger me. The down side is I've noticed lately that making online purchases while VPN'd are often denied. In those cases, I usually am able to make the purchase from my burner phone.

I'd be curious to hear from any divorce lawyers on what and what can't be subpoenaed in a civil divorce case.

I had a bad month last month, and so I tried to spend what free time I had building my bench back-up.

One thing I've noticed about SD4M is that it is MUCH easier to get a response from women than compared to AM, but the flake factor is much higher. Part of this is that I need to adjust my game a bit, and I think also part of it is that the women are motivated differently. But, I've had several girls just vanish after I thought the email / txt'ing was going well. Is this normal?

As for rebuilding my bench, earlier this week I thought things were going well. I had five solid potentials:

1. 22 yod Jamaican fresh off the boat. 7/8/7?

2. 26 yod AA with her own car and place. 7/7/8?

3. 21 year old Dominican 10/10/7?

4. 19 year AA 8/9/8?

5. 19 year AA 9/9/9?

#1 wanted $500 per meeting after a week of great txt'ing. I passed.

#2 has vanished which is a shame as being able to host would have removed LOTS of logistical issues.

I had a M&G scheduled for #3 today, but she cancelled. I suspect a better prospect emerged as she's new. She wants to skype with me next week when I'm in LA. I guess she's keeping her options open.

I had a M&G with #4, and things were going well. I might have pushed a little too much after the M&G, and now she's "moving to NYC". She never had a SD before, and I think she was expecting that sex wasn't going to be involved.

#5 is still an enigma mostly. We've set a dinner date for when I return from LA. We'll see where it goes.

On the non-SB front, my greek MILF has returned. My KAL hottie that wants to start a family still wants to meet until she can find Mr. Right. I think she just likes crashing at my corporate apartment in Santa Monica!

[QUOTE=BikeRider;1820772]One thing I've noticed about SD4M is that it is MUCH easier to get a response from women than compared to AM, but the flake factor is much higher. Part of this is that I need to adjust my game a bit, and I think also part of it is that the women are motivated differently. But, I've had several girls just vanish after I thought the email / txt'ing was going well. Is this normal?[/QUOTE]I feel you on the Flakes brother. I have always been the want it here now, and I want more type of person. So flakes have been a great character builder for me.

They have always frustrated me. I was on SA but found too many crazies and pros. I prefer SDFORme but the flake factor can be high. The younger the higher the flakes, the hotter the higher the flakes, the newer to the game the higher the flakes. Many times it is just a hot chick getting a better offer. Imagine what it would be like if you were young beautiful immature and guys were making you all kinds of offers all over the place. What would you do?

It is a challenge. I have fucked a lot of them and still go into phases where they just don't seem to respond well. So yes tune up your game. Stay confident and remember. There will be another 100 more babies on that site tomorrow. And the next day and the next.

I need to learn more from Hollywood on qualifying and getting that part right.

Good luck. Keep writing.

Revvo

[QUOTE=BikeRider; 1820733]F. Scott points out the MAJOR hole with Green Dot. You have to use a valid SSN. Years ago I was able to get one by saying to the rep I forgot my SSN. I ditched that card once I married. And I wish I hadn't. Since the Patriot Act. Trying to get a card without a SSN is a no-go now, or my social engineering skills aren't what they use to be.

If you ever need to get a credit report for a mortgage / refinance etc, the Green Dot is going to show up. Then, you have some splaining to do Lucy if your wife or SO looks at the credit report.

I put a fair amount of time in attempts to find a card that is renewable and you don't have to provide a SSN. Most of what I found were very sketchy cards for people to gamble online.

What I do now is reserve rooms with a personal card that has my office address, and pay in cash at check-in. Be careful that the type of reservation ISN'T pre-paid. Also be sure and pay at check-in. Some hotels now run your card at midnight.

There's a small risk with the above approach as the hotel does a card validity check. A private detective would have to be really good to get that info. If the info is even kept (I originally thought not. But now a days I think everything is kept).[/QUOTE]Put the green dot in the girls name? Have her make the purchases, room rentals, etc.

[QUOTE=BikeRider; 1820772]I had a bad month last month, and so I tried to spend what free time I had building my bench back-up.

One thing I've noticed about SD4M is that it is MUCH easier to get a response from women than compared to AM, but the flake factor is much higher. Part of this is that I need to adjust my game a bit, and I think also part of it is that the women are motivated differently. But, I've had several girls just vanish after I thought the email / txt'ing was going well. Is this normal?

As for rebuilding my bench, earlier this week I thought things were going well. I had five solid potentials:

1. 22 yod Jamaican fresh off the boat. 7/8/7?

2. 26 yod AA with her own car and place. 7/7/8?

3. 21 year old Dominican 10/10/7?

4. 19 year AA 8/9/8?

5. 19 year AA 9/9/9?

#1 wanted $500 per meeting after a week of great txt'ing. I passed.

#2 has vanished which is a shame as being able to host would have removed LOTS of logistical issues.

I had a M&G scheduled for #3 today, but she cancelled. I suspect a better prospect emerged as she's new. She wants to skype with me next week when I'm in LA. I guess she's keeping her options open.

I had a M&G with #4, and things were going well. I might have pushed a little too much after the M&G, and now she's "moving to NYC". She never had a SD before, and I think she was expecting that sex wasn't going to be involved.

#5 is still an enigma mostly. We've set a dinner date for when I return from LA. We'll see where it goes.

On the non-SB front, my greek MILF has returned. My KAL hottie that wants to start a family still wants to meet until she can find Mr. Right. I think she just likes crashing at my corporate apartment in Santa Monica![/QUOTE]On SD4ME, get 'them when they sign up and meet them within a few days or lose them most of the time. Unless they are UTR

[QUOTE=Revvo; 1820981]I feel you on the Flakes brother. I have always been the want it here now, and I want more type of person. So flakes have been a great character builder for me.

They have always frustrated me. I was on SA but found too many crazies and pros. I prefer SDFORme but the flake factor can be high. The younger the higher the flakes, the hotter the higher the flakes, the newer to the game the higher the flakes. Many times it is just a hot chick getting a better offer. Imagine what it would be like if you were young beautiful immature and guys were making you all kinds of offers all over the place. What would you do?

Good luck. Keep writing.

Revvo[/QUOTE]Flakes have a direct correlation to young new listers. I have lost 3 18 to 19 yr olds in the last month. I swore I wouldn't do teens anymore but they are so irresistible. The new posters get a huge amount of attention from us all. We all know to jump on them fast and hard. Also for me it is nice to break one in if she is truly naive. The scenario is probably the same for us all. You chat them up quickly and text back and forth. Then you make a M&G appointment all within a week. The day of the meet she goes silent. 3 times I tell you this month! Everything seems perfect and she says she is excited to meet, and boom! Gone. I agree with Hollywood that you have got to meet them in the first day or two. They get cold feet, get a million other offers, and blow you off. Many of them come back around because they find the grass is not greener with the fantastical offers. Mr Big bangs them and moves on. Those of us who are looking for longer term SBs have to wait out the flush before they circle back around.

Walruscl. Yes, it's been mentioned that with Long Term SBs, it's very likely they'll eventually find out your real identity. Either there will be a slip-up on your part, hotel receipts, car registration, and etc or you'll just flat out tell her. If you know her personality type (a non-vindictive person) and there's mutually assured destruction, then disclosing IDs can be a non-lethal risk. And you really shouldn't do such disclosures until you've had your first argument, so you know how she acts when she's agitated or upset with you. And even then, I wouldn't show my LT SB directly where I live / work. I'll still let her try to figure it out, so there's some degree of uncertainty.

I've had three SBs know my real identity. Two were long-term SBs and one was a resourceful Pot SB who found a chink in my cover. With the two LT SBs I never had any problems and I had a lot of info on them as well. With one of them we've remained good friends and I know she would never do anything to harm me or my family. I had some info on the Pot SB, but I wasn't really comfortable with that situation so I quietly let her lose interest in me.

Once you cross the line and a SB knows your identity, then you MUST make sure when the arrangement / relationship ends that it's mostly on good terms. And even if the breakup is a bit rocky initially, you need to make sure you smooth things over within a couple of months so there's no lingering bitterness. After all, once a SB knows your identity she can theoretically pop into your life unannounced at a moment's notice at any time. A month from now or 2-3 years from now. And you never know, a nice girl today could end up being a Nando1 a few years from now. That's why so many guys here say NEVER blow your cover because there's no going back. There will always be a liability hanging out there.

That said, I totally feel you about the headaches of basically maintaining two covers. It's why despite the advice in this thread, once I'm with a LT SB who I trust more or less, I let her know my real name and do limited disclosures. It just makes my time together with her a lot more relaxing and less stressful. Generally with a LT SB, I may spend the whole day with them and it's just much easier not having to hide hotel bills, paying for alcohol, watching how I refer to myself in conversations, and etc. It's a definite risk, but we're all taking risks when we enter this lifestyle. It's just about the type of risks you're comfortable with accepting and avoiding unnecessary risks. The latter is subjective though. One man's necessary risk is another man's foolish errand.

Hernando bro,

I hear you, bro. Last month, I scored none. Zero SB. Got tons of text / mails. Similar to you, I messaged them first day they joined, and got a lot of interactions. Once M&G is scheduled, radio silent. Learned from my past experience, I texted them a couple of hours before the M&G, and told them that I won't be there if they won't send me a confirmation. Beside young SBs, several MILFs were like that as well.

In fact, I got a text from one of these MILFs 3 am in the morning asking me to book a room for her and her daughters because her ex is scaring them. I texted her back in the morning saying that I am not comfortable of doing it since we never met. This MILF: we scheduled M&G 3 times before and she backed out all.

I stopped renewing my SDFM account and is taking a break now.

[QUOTE=Hernando;1821055]Flakes have a direct correlation to young new listers. I have lost 3 18 to 19 yr olds in the last month. I swore I wouldn't do teens anymore but they are so irresistible. The new posters get a huge amount of attention from us all. We all know to jump on them fast and hard. Also for me it is nice to break one in if she is truly naive. The scenario is probably the same for us all. You chat them up quickly and text back and forth. Then you make a M&G appointment all within a week. The day of the meet she goes silent. 3 times I tell you this month! Everything seems perfect and she says she is excited to meet, and boom! Gone. I agree with Hollywood that you have got to meet them in the first day or two. They get cold feet, get a million other offers, and blow you off. Many of them come back around because they find the grass is not greener with the fantastical offers. Mr Big bangs them and moves on. Those of us who are looking for longer term SBs have to wait out the flush before they circle back around.[/QUOTE]

Well, as I said, I wouldn't recommend that anyone follow my footsteps. But your insights are worthwhile and helpful, and your good luck with previous SB's is reassuring.

Waiting for an argument is a good idea. I did a rather pale imitation of that during our heart-to-heart, where I asked her what her reaction would be if I told her right now that I wasn't able to continue the relationship. While it's not as good as the argument litmus test, the response I got seemed sincere and was reassuring.

As for showing where I lived, there were at least short-term reasons to do that. And long-term, once she knew my rather unique last name, everything about me is a quick Google away. Since there would be very little uncertainty, I opted for trust-building in hopes that when eventually things wind down, it's a soft landing.

Also good advice is to bring things to closure on friendly terms. Failing that, she will be vulnerable to my knowledge of her personal history for some time to come. The calculated risk is that by the time that leverage fades, so would any interest on her part to make trouble for me.

I'll be the first to admit that I may very well come to regret this decision. Should that come to pass, I can only hope that it will be in the form of stress and damage control rather than the triggering of a thermonuclear event.

But as you say, the risks are plenty, and comfort zones vary.

Thanks much for offering your insights. Wish me luck.

[QUOTE=John G Smith; 1821187]Walruscl. Yes, it's been mentioned that with Long Term SBs, it's very likely they'll eventually find out your real identity. Either there will be a slip-up on your part, hotel receipts, car registration, and etc or you'll just flat out tell her. If you know her personality type (a non-vindictive person) and there's mutually assured destruction, then disclosing IDs can be a non-lethal risk. And you really shouldn't do such disclosures until you've had your first argument, so you know how she acts when she's agitated or upset with you. And even then, I wouldn't show my LT SB directly where I live / work. I'll still let her try to figure it out, so there's some degree of uncertainty.

I've had three SBs know my real identity. Two were long-term SBs and one was a resourceful Pot SB who found a chink in my cover. With the two LT SBs I never had any problems and I had a lot of info on them as well. With one of them we've remained good friends and I know she would never do anything to harm me or my family. I had some info on the Pot SB, but I wasn't really comfortable with that situation so I quietly let her lose interest in me.

Once you cross the line and a SB knows your identity, then you MUST make sure when the arrangement / relationship ends that it's mostly on good terms. And even if the breakup is a bit rocky initially, you need to make sure you smooth things over within a couple of months so there's no lingering bitterness. After all, once a SB knows your identity she can theoretically pop into your life unannounced at a moment's notice at any time. A month from now or 2-3 years from now. And you never know, a nice girl today could end up being a Nando1 a few years from now. That's why so many guys here say NEVER blow your cover because there's no going back. There will always be a liability hanging out there.

That said, I totally feel you about the headaches of basically maintaining two covers. It's why despite the advice in this thread, once I'm with a LT SB who I trust more or less, I let her know my real name and do limited disclosures. It just makes my time together with her a lot more relaxing and less stressful. Generally with a LT SB, I may spend the whole day with them and it's just much easier not having to hide hotel bills, paying for alcohol, watching how I refer to myself in conversations, and etc. It's a definite risk, but we're all taking risks when we enter this lifestyle. It's just about the type of risks you're comfortable with accepting and avoiding unnecessary risks. The latter is subjective though. One man's necessary risk is another man's foolish errand.[/QUOTE]

Now that is something that I would never do. Now mind you, that list is very short, but it's definitely on there. I will say this out of all the ones I've been with. 4, I have given my real info to and 2 have gotten it either by taking advantage of minimal information I gave them or by being sneaky and going through my items.

One case she decided she didn't want to continue and in the other case she was my extorionist! I will give my first

BT.

[QUOTE=Walruscl; 1821216]Well, as I said, I wouldn't recommend that anyone follow my footsteps. But your insights are worthwhile and helpful, and your good luck with previous SB's is reassuring.

Waiting for an argument is a good idea. I did a rather pale imitation of that during our heart-to-heart, where I asked her what her reaction would be if I told her right now that I wasn't able to continue the relationship. While it's not as good as the argument litmus test, the response I got seemed sincere and was reassuring.

As for showing where I lived, there were at least short-term reasons to do that. And long-term, once she knew my rather unique last name, everything about me is a quick Google away. Since there would be very little uncertainty, I opted for trust-building in hopes that when eventually things wind down, it's a soft landing.

Also good advice is to bring things to closure on friendly terms. Failing that, she will be vulnerable to my knowledge of her personal history for some time to come. The calculated risk is that by the time that leverage fades, so would any interest on her part to make trouble for me.

I'll be the first to admit that I may very well come to regret this decision. Should that come to pass, I can only hope that it will be in the form of stress and damage control rather than the triggering of a thermonuclear event.

But as you say, the risks are plenty, and comfort zones vary.

Thanks much for offering your insights. Wish me luck.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Revvo; 1820981]I feel you on the Flakes brother. I have always been the want it here now, and I want more type of person. So flakes have been a great character builder for me.

They have always frustrated me. I was on SA but found too many crazies and pros. I prefer SDFORme but the flake factor can be high. The younger the higher the flakes, the hotter the higher the flakes, the newer to the game the higher the flakes. Many times it is just a hot chick getting a better offer. Imagine what it would be like if you were young beautiful immature and guys were making you all kinds of offers all over the place. What would you do?

It is a challenge. I have fucked a lot of them and still go into phases where they just don't seem to respond well. So yes tune up your game. Stay confident and remember. There will be another 100 more babies on that site tomorrow. And the next day and the next.

I need to learn more from Hollywood on qualifying and getting that part right.

Good luck. Keep writing.

Revvo[/QUOTE]Well said on all points. We call can learn from Hollywood.

Interestingly enough the 26 yod that vanished reappeared last night. Evidently an emergency back home (west coast). She broke her Google Voice cloak and txt'd me from her real phone number so I'm pretty sure its legit.

The other bonus here is she's not looking for sugar. She has a professional job, her own condo, and car. She just wants a little romance and passion without complications.

[QUOTE=Hernando;1821055]Flakes have a direct correlation to young new listers. I have lost 3 18 to 19 yr olds in the last month. I swore I wouldn't do teens anymore but they are so irresistible. The new posters get a huge amount of attention from us all. We all know to jump on them fast and hard. Also for me it is nice to break one in if she is truly naive. The scenario is probably the same for us all. You chat them up quickly and text back and forth. Then you make a M&G appointment all within a week. The day of the meet she goes silent. 3 times I tell you this month! Everything seems perfect and she says she is excited to meet, and boom! Gone. I agree with Hollywood that you have got to meet them in the first day or two. They get cold feet, get a million other offers, and blow you off. Many of them come back around because they find the grass is not greener with the fantastical offers. Mr Big bangs them and moves on. Those of us who are looking for longer term SBs have to wait out the flush before they circle back around.[/QUOTE]Very true. The 19 yod that I had the M&G with said that the first guy she met made LOTS of promises and never delivered. Told her to quit her job and he'd cover her with an allowance which never materialized. She said almost didn't come back to the site, but decided to do so one last time. We're still in contact I've switched to a longer game just in case she doesn't go to NYC.

I thought I'd post a short bit on doing SB diligence.

I've seen several posts where brothers have google'd names, phone numbers, email addresses, and images as part of their diligence process. This is easy with Spokeo and a number of other services. Another aspect of diligence is determining if your SB is really where she says she is. I've caught more than a few on AM who were half-way around the world from where they say they were located.

Yahoo right now is the only major email system where you can trace the sender's IP address. Although, I've noticed that some times even Yahoo is now blocking the sender's IP. What isn't widely known is that you can easily geo-locate with Skype. Just google 'skype resolver' and you'll see a few web sites listed. I use skype2ip. Org myself. Skype has a little known issue where you can usually determine a user name's last IP address. This easily gives you the location via any number of geo-location databases. Skype2IP has a link you hit and brings up a map.

One important point is that the geo-location of the IP address some times isn't all that accurate. It may point the main office of Comcast or Verizon at times. If that happens, there are other ways to verify a general location with an IP address. If there's, interest I can post more info.

The most important aspect though is to remember that this can be done to YOU just as easily. This is the main reason why I VPN (Witopia or PIA) ALL of the time. $70 / yr is cheap insurance.

BR

Any SD's near Louisville, KY message me asap for a potential gold mine.

What's interesting about this is the different experiences and perspectives we bring. BigTigger you are one of the superstars, and seem to have pretty much done and seen it all. So you've seen the types of SB's for which full disclosure would be suicide. Understandable then that would be just somewhere you'd never want to go.

In my short experience, I've come across one UTR, a pair of seemingly-harmless MILFs that I just couldn't quite get comfortable with, a HCB that also seemed "off" and then I think got cold feet, a number of GPS's the were stillborn early, and another young MILF that was almost to closing the deal when I overreacted to a situation that really didn't seem right.

On the last one, I'm still not sure whether it was an overreaction or my BS detector being turned up and actually getting a positive reading. I know that when I did more due diligence, she hadn't done sufficient deep cover to prevent me from finding her Facebook page. What I found there was disturbing enough that I'm glad it fell through. Even if it had proceeded, I don't think I ever would have had an inclination to break cover with her.

With my current (and yes, only) SB, I just got none of those vibes at all. Hopefully my usually-reliable judge of personality is still on target.

I'm glad to hear the insights. It's sounding like the community opinion is that while it was a really risky thing to do, breaking cover with the right SB is not automatically fatal.

[QUOTE=BigTigger; 1821822]Now that is something that I would never do. Now mind you, that list is very short, but it's definitely on there. I will say this out of all the ones I've been with. 4, I have given my real info to and 2 have gotten it either by taking advantage of minimal information I gave them or by being sneaky and going through my items.

One case she decided she didn't want to continue and in the other case she was my extorionist! I will give my first

BT.[/QUOTE]

Wow, WTF? What kind of scumbag would do that? I mean really, even if the SD was sincere (which is a stretch), there are all sorts of reasons for either party to want to bail. In which case the SD goes his merry way and the SB is out of a job.

Hopefully she was smart enough to see through that before too much damage occurred.

Just, wow.

[QUOTE=BikeRider;1821879]Very true. The 19 yod that I had the M&G with said that the first guy she met made LOTS of promises and never delivered. Told her to quit her job and he'd cover her with an allowance which never materialized.[/QUOTE]

As a relatively long time member of this forum, mostly with posts in the Northeast and a bit in Montreal & Las Vegas. I have just found this SB thread in the last 3 or 4 days. I've gone back on this sb thread and read for hours. I am soaking it up like a sponge. Great material. I'm 67 and would love being a SD to a gorgeous young bb. Wish I had the cash and the 'game' to become a full fledged member. Though not going to happen. I will stick with my $160 an hr. Asian BP girls.

About a year ago at Harrah's in Atlantic City I had the privilege of playing a crap table that happened to also have a man of about 70 or so who was no doubt 'with' arm in arm a beautiful young bb of about 25. I felt he was the luckiest sob I had seen in a very long time. She was gorgeous but not overdressed at all, with the GND look. The thought of that older guy with her has been in my memory bank since that night. .

Anyway to the subject of the above title.

I have found this (new to me) web site called you jizz live dot com. You have to be a member to chat with these beauties, who are from many parts of the world but mostly Eastern Europe, Russia, Latvia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Hungary, etc. And USA. The age range is 18 to? But mostly at the younger range and you do not necessarily have to pay the outrageous minute to minute fare. Some of them (not all!) are very willing to chat for long periods of time for no pay (and I always am truthful of my age), even though the admin's at that site do not appreciate free chat at all. Actually the cam girls portion of the fare is a very minimal amount. They are working, often completely naked and doing practically anything you want for a horrendously small amount of hourly pay. I'm telling you some of these girls are absolutely beautiful AND in need of money!

The reason I bring all this up is I am guessing some of these girls could be enticed into the Sugar Bowl by a few of the regular contributors of this thread. A little 'game' is needed. But the rewards could be gratifying.

I'm just not sure that for some bb's the step from camgirl to sb is too big a step and implies more than they are willing to accept?

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Also will continue to read this thread with enthusiasm.

Looking16

[QUOTE=Looking16; 1822724]I have found this (new to me) web site called you jizz live dot com. You have to be a member to chat with these beauties, who are from many parts of the world but mostly Eastern Europe, Russia, Latvia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Hungary, etc. And USA. The age range is 18 to? But mostly at the younger range and you do not necessarily have to pay the outrageous minute to minute fare. Some of them (not all!) are very willing to chat for long periods of time for no pay (and I always am truthful of my age) , even though the admin's at that site do not appreciate free chat at all. Actually the cam girls portion of the fare is a very minimal amount. They are working, often completely naked and doing practically anything you want for a horrendously small amount of hourly pay. I'm telling you some of these girls are absolutely beautiful AND in need of money!

The reason I bring all this up is I am guessing some of these girls could be enticed into the Sugar Bowl by a few of the regular contributors of this thread. A little 'game' is needed. But the rewards could be gratifying.

I'm just not sure that for some bb's the step from camgirl to sb is too big a step and implies more than they are willing to accept?[/QUOTE]I spend alot of time in southeastern europe for work, and have been in Russia, Czech Rep, and Ukraine as well. There is actually a much higher likelihood that girls there would accept a sb / sd relationship. They actually refer to it as being "sponsored". The problem is that the odds of getting a tourist visa for any of them to visit you here is practically zero. That means going there for the reward. Which is not as challenging or expensive as it sounds, but you're limited to relatively short relationships.

[QUOTE=Looking16;1822724]I have found this (new to me) web site called you jizz live dot com.[/QUOTE]Looks like you have to leave a CC # to log in. Says they won't charge it. Whats up with that?

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;1823009]Looks like you have to leave a CC # to log in. Says they won't charge it. Whats up with that?[/QUOTE]Hollywood, That is true yes. I have a card registered with the site and have used it on occasion. Sometimes I have no will power and girls seduce me into their bowl. .

Once registered you are free to browse and chat with girls on the site free of charge. Pay only when you choose to go 'private'.

It's just a different front for Streamate, and a dozen other cam model sites with internet models from camsharks, KGB studios and others. If you want a live sex show, the gold shows might be a good value, but don't fool yourself, the girls are here to make money and you will never meet one in real life.

[QUOTE=Walruscl; 1820737]I already knew where she worked, almost exactly where she lived, and it was clear that I could at least make life very complicated for her if I wanted to. During our heart-to-heart, I mentioned this and assured her that I had no desire to or interest in doing anything remotely like that. But the fact remained that I'd really only be comfortable if there were some "Mutually Assured Destruction" dynamic in place.

So we traded peeks at our I'd's, and rather than a hotel I took her to my guaranteed-to-be-empty-for-the-duration house. This introduced new dimensions to deep cover-leaving no trace in the house, not attracting notice of neighbors, etc. Having her there was a weird mix of relief yet new stress. So future home visits will be very rare. But in this specific case it made it much easier for me to maintain appearances.[/QUOTE]Mr Walrus,

Forgive me if what I am about to say sounds harsh, but honestly I really do think you need to re-examine your situation and what you are attempting to do to your life in the short / mid / long-term.

From an outsiders perspective this looks to me like the actions of someone who secretly is wishing to get caught. Perhaps that is the case & obviously none of us here on this board has picture-perfect marriages, if we did we wouldn't be here right?

However let me just ask you to be honest with yourself & suggest that if ending your marriage is indeed something you deep down wish to do, there are a lot cheaper & less embarrassing avenues to go about it than be caught in an affair!

Let's give your Sugar-baby the 100% benefit of the doubt for a moment. She rates as high as possible on the Nando-scale & she truly is one of the hidden gems out there right?

You made a not-so-overt threat against her prior to disclosing your identity with the concept of "Mutually assured destruction" to keep you safe. Here is how the dynamic of your "MAD" standoff works at present:

[b]You are holding a pair of dull chopsticks to her throat, and she has a sawed-off 12 gauge pointed at your crotch! [/b]

She has SO MUCH less to loose than you do, it's not even funny!

Now go into the bathroom, look yourself directly in the mirror & repeat this phrase 10 times:

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

"This is a woman who fucks guys for money"

This one completely has you by the short & curly hairs & you are just giving it to her willingly.

My man, if I were you I would hope beyond hope she really is one of the 'cool' ones and try to end this as softly as possible & then try (pray) that you can walk away. Hell, you may even have to sell your house & move to another city. I would turn this into a platonic friendship as soon as possible & you may even have to keep the sugar going for a while to lighten the blow with her.

Conversely, you may need to start doing things to make her be the one to want to break it off. That would be your ideal out right now. Perhaps stop showering for a few days before each date? Show up drunk to EVERY meeting. Confess to her our hidden desire for 'golden showers / scat play'. Find out a way to get yourself a permanent case of E. D. (Perhaps by watching large quantities of Hungarian Grandmother porn prior to each encounter?) , so that each 'sexual' encounter turns into an embarrassing / awkward situation for both of you. Etc Etc.

Whatever it takes man, but honestly I do not see a happy ending in your future if you continue down this path.

Again, I apologize for sounding harsh. It is not my intention to judge you unfairly. I simply want you to come out of this with your skin intact!

-Chi

[QUOTE=Binder79;1823096]the girls are here to make money and you will never meet one in real life.[/QUOTE]I agree with the fact it will not be me. Not enough cash or game. From reading so many of the stories in this thread about young sb's with older men, we all know it can and does happen regularly. And yes with girls from the aforementioned site it is also possible. More than likely the strike-out avg would be high for sure but some are only one step away from sb status.

The biggest advantage is seeing them live on screen and can decide in short time whether to pursue.

They are all in 'need of money' and would love a much easier life style.

Again just my honest opinion.

Gentlemen,

I was working at home the other day, and had, among other things, my burner phone out on the desk, along with my real phone, calculator, and ipod. In other words, surrounding my laptop were a number of similarly-sized devices, when my SO walked in suddenly and unexpectedly, with no time for me to grab the burner without her seeing the motion. I pretty much wet myself at that moment, but kept my cool long enough to palm the burner when her attention was diverted.

I honestly thought there was no way she could not have seen it, and was walking on eggshells for the next few days. This happened last Wednesday, but since then all has been sweetness and light, so I now believe the Sugar Gods were smiling on me, and I am in the clear, thank the lord.

I did, in my panic, come up with what I think will be a more-than-plausible strategy should this ever happen in the future, which I would like to share with you all. Later on that day, I went to the drugstore and bought an identical pay-as-you-go phone to the one I use for Sugar Business, scuffed up the outside on the pavement, and threw all the packaging, including the battery, into the trash.

My thinking was this: if my SO was waiting to lull me into a false sense of security, then ask me about the burner she saw on my desk, my play would be that I found it in the parking lot, and was hoping to see if I could either figure out who it belonged to, or to see if I could use it myself, but the battery was missing, and I hadn't gotten around to throwing it out yet. I would then produce the "decoy" phone, hand it to her, and let her do with it as she wanted. Obviously, this would require a great deal of sange froid on my part, but I have rehearsed it enough in my head that I believe I can pull it off.

Since she has not said anything yet, I am holding on to the decoy against the time when I might slip up again, although I have to admit that the jolt of adrenaline I experienced when she walked through the door is not anything I want to feel again, ever. I am back to my standard safe practices routine, and have even found a new hiding place for my "kit" under the dashboard of my car, which my SO never drives.

I share this in the event that some of you may want to get out ahead of a potential situation by buying your own decoy phones and just hanging on to them. Mine cost $15, a staggering bargain compared to the cost of a divorce.

In the immortal words of Brother Revvo,

Be careful out there!

Scott

"The biggest advantage is seeing them live on screen and can decide in short time whether to pursue.

They are all in 'need of money' and would love a much easier life style."

The only problem with that is, if she gives out her personal contact information, she looses her job (if the site finds out). I can't imagine one willing to risk it, but if you "got game" enough, have at it man!

[QUOTE=Binder79; 1823415]"The biggest advantage is seeing them live on screen and can decide in short time whether to pursue.

They are all in 'need of money' and would love a much easier life style."

The only problem with that is, if she gives out her personal contact information, she looses her job (if the site finds out). I can't imagine one willing to risk it, but if you "got game" enough, have at it man![/QUOTE]As long as you can group chat for free it could be worth it sometime. And they don't ding your card. You might get a month or two free before they block your IP.

[QUOTE=HollywoodGuy;1823994]As long as you can group chat for free it could be worth it sometime. And they don't ding your card. You might get a month or two free before they block your IP.[/QUOTE]I've been on there for a long time, haven't used the card for 6 months, not blocked yet.

And for those who think these girls all do it because they need the money so badly, find one named DDDiamonds and ask her for a video tour of her Mansion there in Puerto Rico, Ask her to include the garage with her Mazzarati and her hummer. As well as the backyard pool and hot tub.

[QUOTE=Binder79; 1824093]I've been on there for a long time, haven't used the card for 6 months, not blocked yet.

And for those who think these girls all do it because they need the money so badly, find one named DDDiamonds and ask her for a video tour of her Mansion there in Puerto Rico, Ask her to include the garage with her Mazzarati and her hummer. As well as the backyard pool and hot tub.[/QUOTE]For those that think these girls are all rich. Chat with 100's of others. Just sayin.
(For those veterans on this board with legitimate posts to make. My apologies. I will not post about this again.)

Gentlemen,

I am not trying to be obtuse, nor trying to be an asshole, but I am confused by the current dialogue about a pay-per-view camsite where you can "chat", in a group, with European women on your computer, while there are perfectly obtainable, domestic babies who you can actually fuck in real time!

To each his own, of course, but is this the proper venue for a "virtual sex" discussion? I, for one, would be very reluctant to book a flight to Prague to see someone who I had only "met" via her webcam.

Feel free to disagree,

Scott

[QUOTE=F Scott; 1824720]Gentlemen,

I am not trying to be obtuse, nor trying to be an asshole, but I am confused by the current dialogue about a pay-per-view camsite where you can "chat", in a group, with European women on your computer, while there are perfectly obtainable, domestic babies who you can actually fuck in real time!

To each his own, of course, but is this the proper venue for a "virtual sex" discussion? I, for one, would be very reluctant to book a flight to Prague to see someone who I had only "met" via her webcam.

Feel free to disagree,

Scott[/QUOTE]I definitely Agree!

I third that motion

So here is how things have lined up this week

ATF #1

10/10/10/8 Since we've renewed our relationship things are pretty good. She doesn't like to kiss so I have downgraded her to an overall 8. Otherwise she is a perfect 10. Her body is AMAZING! It is truly a joy to watch her in the nude.

Backup Babies (BB) SB #1 and 2 got the pink slip this week. They are too expensive for the mediocre experience. They are both BBWs and carry a little too much weight for me. They are both willing to provide on call services so if things got desperate I could always do that.

POT # 1 is on deck tonight for a M&G and is a 80% FC. She is a 28 yr old WF 8/9? She has kids and requires a hotel, so I am giving her $300 total which includes FC, gas, and sitter. Unfortunately she can only stay a few hours to play. But that should be enough to get the job done (hand, face, and vagina) If she is loving she could take the place of ATF in the lineup. Emotional connectivity counts for a lot even over a perfect 10.

SB # 1 is a 9/9/9/7 She is 22 with a blisteringly good body and cute face but has a baby and smokes heavily. So the overall experience is so so. If she lived closer I would make her a fuck buddy.

So there it is. I have 2 sure things and 1 almost in the bag. Three is the most I can afford and service properly and still take care of family and work business.

I like the nando scale. It really made me re-evaluate some of my choices.

This rating system is only my own. It is actually far more nuanced, but kept brief for easy reading.

1. Girls that go on the SD sites just to fantasize. Could be any age but mostly younger. OMG time wasters.

2. GPS girls. Enough said.

3. SW's or Escorts. If thats what you like, who am I to judge.

4. Wannabee's. Not good enough looking to be an SB. They're willing, you're not.

5. Dancers. Even though I date one. I met her before she became one.

6. UTR girls. Sometimes refered to as booty call girls. Smart escorts or even SW's will try to pretend they are UTR.

7. MILFS. They are all over the place as far as needs / wants / desires. But not too difficult to bag.

8. Older non pros. Statistically most SD's want 27 to 35 year olds.

9. Younger non pros. 22-26. They already have a few ideas and a little mileage.

10. Very young non pro first timers. 18-22. Never took cash or gifts from anyone ever, you are the first.

As far as age / race / skills / personality / body type / facial beauty / hair / overall style. Everyone here has their own ideal.

I find that harder to rate and see no reason to.