American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[LordBlackAdder]

Dozens of local area workers were left jobless yesterday as the doors closed on their workplace after more than nine years of frisky business. Devastated staff at the "I Hate Bush T-Shirt and Vendor Wear" factory wept as the moment they were dreading finally became a reality: the firm went into bankruptcy in result of sagging orders for their goods and slim prospects for a renewed demand in the future.

"The management can say whatever they want, but I personally blame Bush," said Fred Fluger, a longtime employee, as he carried home a storage box filled with "I Hate Bush" shirts, sweaters, boxers, beach towels, and pajamas, with which the cash-stripped company had been paying its workers for the last three months.

"It's clearly Bush's fault because he disappeared from the news and stopped making dumb statements, leaving it to Obama to bring him up all the time" fumed Fred Fluger. "Why can't he poke his nose around in world affairs? Hell, even Carter can be counted on to make a post-presidential idiotic statement. What's up with this 'dignified retirement'? I'm sure Bush is doing this with some evil purpose, just like when he blew up the Twin Towers to become a fascist dictator for life, or destroyed New Orleans to test his weather machine. I think Bush hates us and our values. I really do. His silence is a ploy to hurt us and to diminish demand for our selfless work."

"Bush doesn't want us to continue to prosper like we did during his presidency, when everybody had jobs and could afford to spend money on 'I Hate Bush' T-shirts, and we couldn't keep up with demand, and times then were good, so good!" Mr. Fluger then began to sob and mutter incoherently to himself, as he realized how good he really had it when George Bush was in office.

Emotions ran high at the "I Hate Bush" factory which for nine years provided employment, healthcare, union benefits, and subsidized mortgages for its diverse staff, most of whom were now blaming Bush for the closure and bankruptcy.

But there also were dissenters. "Not to let Bush off the hook, but I also blame capitalist markets," said Keith Matthews, a marketing expert and multiple winner of the factory's prestigious "Malcontent of the Month" award. "Why must our lives depend on demand for our products? In a normal, centrally-planned, government-subsidized economy, we would be making 'I Hate Bush' shirts for many years until we retire, and then our children would continue our work, without any changes in design or technology, with guaranteed employment for generations to come. That's why I'm so disappointed in Obama. If he keeps letting us down, in the next election I'll vote for Nader."

The factory did try to fight back. But the idea to re-tool the T-shirt line with pro-Obama slogans was dashed by the recent elections in Virginia and New Jersey, which the management said was the final writing on the wall.

There have also been rumors of a large grant from the NEA Foundation, to keep the factory alive as a taxpayer-funded artistic community. However, the dreams of working families were brutally crushed by the right-wing media's attacks on the Foundation's progressive effort, which linked NEA grants to endorsing Obama's policies. Their baseless claims that the NEA was somehow using taxpayer dollars for leftist propaganda forced Foundation's leaders to withdraw the "I Hate Bush" subsidy.

The 51 employees, some of whom have been with the firm from the very beginning, said an emotional private farewell to each other in the Organic Foods Lunchroom at the factory.

Andrew Laing, 52, a worker with a seven-year experience, said: "It's a very dark day for all of us. Nine years of history all gone. Damn you, George Bush! Why can't you just honestly say something nasty about Obama so we can all get frothed up in a frenzy again and keep our jobs? Why must you be so sneakily silent, depriving us of our livelihood? Why must you be so evil? Damn you! Damn you to hell!"

Andrew Laing's daughter Audrey, 35, was also there, supporting her father. "I had hoped the factory would last until after Christmas," said Audrey Laing, who had no job at the company but depended upon her father's income for sustenance.

"Who wouldn't like to get an organic, fair-trade 'I Hate Bush' T-shirt as a holiday gift from their loved ones? It was so selfish to close now. We all know that Christmas is a corporate ploy to boost profits in the last quarter of the fiscal year when the bourgeois like to go shopping for stuff. Buck Fush!"

"My daughter is so smart because she went to college," the father beams proudly, but his smile quickly gives way to the usual concerned look: "That's why the greedy corporate bastards refuse to hire her. Thankfully, she collects disability for her dyslexia."

Mr. Laing agrees about Christmas, adding that "if only the factory lasted until the right-wingers regained the majority in Congress in 2010, we could replace 'I Hate Bush' with the name of some other Republican hatemonger designated for this role by the progressive community. The right-wingers would cut taxes and then the people would have more money to fight them by wearing anti-right-wing shirts. The sales would pick up and we could keep our jobs."

But even in these difficult times there still may be help. An investors group associated with Fox News is said to be interested in purchasing the factory building and using laid-off workers to support recently added news staff - an expansion caused by the network's ever increasing ratings.

Most factory workers, however, including Mr. Fluger and Mr. Laing, stated they would never work for any outfit that has the word "Fox" in its name. "I'd rather have my skin pierced with a thousand nipple rings and dive into a vat of rubbing alcohol before I would lower myself to work for those heathens," said Mr. Fluger.

The only other opportunity for the laid-off workers seems to be at a nearby tea factory, where demand for the product has taken an unexpected upturn since the election of Obama as President. "I think the tea business and all the parties associated with it are going to be a real booming concern the next couple of years," Mr. Fluger said.

[The Old Sarge]

General Pershing Had an Idea That Appears to have WorkedSomebody may want to check some of them dates, I don't think one of them is correct. That makes the rest suspect.

[Roamin Roman]

Somebody may want to check some of them dates, I don't think one of them is correct. That makes the rest suspect.The dates ALL appear to be in the right time frame. Pershing was in charge in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War and was responsible for stemming the tide of Muslim attacks there. (He's also the reason that Marines are known as "Leathernecks.") He was also promoted to General of the Armies, a rank which only one (or possibly two) other General(s) has had the distinction of carrying.

[Seva Lurker]

General Pershing Had an Idea That Appears to have Worked

I'd heard that story about General Pershing in the past. The number of Moros he executed has varied, the number of survivors (1) has not. :D

His tactic did work though maybe not for forty two years. Or if we believe the report from Urban Legends (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm), it never happened.

But still there is some truth to the psychological approach. The Sepoy Mutiny (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/india1857.htm) in India supports the dirtiness of pigs for multiple religions (Jews, Hindus and Muslims).

[Bell Bottom]

As always, the right-wing-nuts have embraced Nonnie but have conflated their own views with hers. The right is always willing to misinterpret, skew, distort and outright lie in an effort to keep their momentum going and vent their rage at being such idiots.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=52221

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonie_Darwish


Meanwhile, the Obama administration is bringing in about 10, 000 refugees per month from Islamic countries, get ready to fight for your country all over again, A61

[Bell Bottom]

The right-wing-nuts love this kind of stuff. Here are some interesting comments about Harold and his "never spoken out before" missive.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=53751&highlight=Harold+Estes


This is from a venerable and much honored WW II vet who is well known in Hawaii for his seventy-plus years of service to patriotic organizations and causes all over the country. A humble man without a political bone in his body, He has never spoken out before about a government official, until now.

...

[Bell Bottom]

Certainly an idea the right-wing-nuts can embrace and since we ignored the Geneva Conventions under Bush, I'm surprised they didn't try it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions


General Pershing Had an Idea That Appears to have Worked

[Bell Bottom]

Got that right. They can't even live with the bible in it's current format so are reinterpreting it based on conservative values.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34270487/ns/us_news-faith/

Co-opting established interpretation because it doesn't fit with your beliefs is just truly a sad state of affairs. Next thing they'll do is try to secede like the confederates; maybe even write in a biblical interpretation that supports carrying guns "and the Lord looked down on man and gave him an Uzi. And there was much rejoicing." Better a leftist who can tolerate differences than a right-wing-nut.


If you think you will change the opinions of the far right you are truly insane. Most of their arguments are based on disinformation and outright lies with an undertone of racism. To try to speak to them armed only with truth and common sense will only get you a response of more BS, racism and "humor" that only they find amusing. Critical thinking is lacking in these people.

[Bell Bottom]

Your argument is seriously flawed. What Columbus saw wouldn't have been affected by global warming because the Industrial Revolution, etc. Hadn't yet happened. Even during the Industrial Revolution, there wasn't that significant a buildup of greenhouse gases and thermal output to the atmosphere, especially in comparison to today. The Arctic and Antarctic Ice Caps are melting as well as the miles of ice covering Greenland and Iceland. Miles thick by hundreds to thousands of miles in area is more than a drop in the bucket. The watersheds created by man are NOTHING in comparison to the volume of ICE stored in the Antarctic and elsewhere. Anyway, ocean levels have already risen a bit. Last but not least, water under pressure, does not really compress all that much.

"Liquids are. By definition. "incompressible", meaning that no matter how much pressure you put them under, they don't shrink in volume (at least until the pressure gets to be on the order of that in the core of a planet or the surface of a black dwarf star). "

From. http://www.Answerbag.com/q_view/759702

Also, Cap and Trade isn't just about ocean levels. It's about trying to slow and hopefully reverse the increase of the mean temperature of the planet, the changes these temperatures have on weather and so ensure the long term survival of mankind (let alone animals, flora and fauna).


http://www.YoutuB.com/watch? V=pA6FSy6EKrM

The whole Cap & Trade argument is based on the false assumption that the oceans are going to rise and drown everyone.

Think about this: Every major river, like the Amazon River, Mississippi River, Ohio River, The Florida Everglades, Colorado River, Congo River, Nile River, Yangtze River, etc.

Runs into the Ocean carrying millions of gallons of water and hundreds of tons of sediment every minute of every day for tens of thousands of years. But the sea level does not rise.

Dozens of major dams in North America have created water sheds by flooding canyons to be used for Hydro-Electric energy like the way Hoover Dam created the Mead Reservoir flooding 112 miles of the Black canyon holding back more water than any glacier, but the sea level did not drop even one inch.

There are Rock Islands in the Bahama chain that are 3-6 inches above sea level at high tide, they are submerged only during a storm serge, other wise they are just as Columbus described them in his log in early 1500, like stepping stones in the sea waiting to smash the hull of the ship that runs into them.

Five hundred years later, the rocky flats that Columbus saw just inches above the sea level are still there just inches above sea level, the level of the Ocean has not raised nor lowered in 500 years.!

Fact is that atmospheric pressure and tides are almost entirely responsible for sea levels.

Water condenses under pressure at depths and adding water would only increase the lower depth pressures and not the ceiling level.

Its likely that there is not even enough water on the planet, that if poured into the Ocean, could make a drastic rise in sea levels.

[Mister Quick]

Just noticed this thread. Always thought climate change was just a way for the people in charge to get the little people to do what they want. Sort of like many religions. My biggest problems with it 1) That they can't tell you what the weather will be like next week so how can you believe it when they tell you in 50 years what it will be. 2) When I was a little kid I remember my parents being worried about an ice age that scinetists claim would happen in our lifeteimes.

However if someone who beleives in global warming wants to live like a caveman, I am all for letting them. Just don't make me do it. But as one can tell by this article I found the biggest believers in the BS appear to be pushing us closer to the doom and gloom (if they are to be believed) than us little guys could ever hope to.

The good reason to go green is in the 9th paragraph, I tried to make it appear in bold, as well as a second article the was just devoted to that subject.

1,200 limos, 400 private jets

On a normal day, Majken Friss Jorgensen, managing director of Copenhagen's biggest limousine company, says her firm has twelve vehicles on the road. During the "summit to save the world", which opens here tomorrow, she will have 200.

"We thought they were not going to have many cars, due to it being a climate convention," she says. "But it seems that somebody last week looked at the weather report."

Ms Jorgensen reckons that between her and her rivals the total number of limos in Copenhagen next week has already broken the 1,200 barrier. The French alone rang up on Thursday and ordered another 42. "We haven't got enough limos in the country to fulfil the demand," she says. "We're having to drive them in hundreds of miles from Germany and Sweden."

And the total number of electric cars or hybrids among that number? "Five," says Ms Jorgensen. "The government has some alternative fuel cars but the rest will be petrol or diesel. We don't have any hybrids in Denmark, unfortunately, due to the extreme taxes on those cars. It makes no sense at all, but it's very Danish."

The airport says it is expecting up to 140 extra private jets during the peak period alone, so far over its capacity that the planes will have to fly off to regional airports – or to Sweden – to park, returning to Copenhagen to pick up their VIP passengers.

As well 15,000 delegates and officials, 5,000 journalists and 98 world leaders, the Danish capital will be blessed by the presence of Leonardo DiCaprio, Daryl Hannah, Helena Christensen, Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Prince Charles. A Republican US senator, Jim Inhofe, is jetting in at the head of an anti-climate-change "Truth Squad." The top hotels – all fully booked at £650 a night – are readying their Climate Convention menus of (no doubt sustainable) scallops, foie gras and sculpted caviar wedges.

At the takeaway pizza end of the spectrum, Copenhagen's clean pavements are starting to fill with slightly less well-scrubbed protesters from all over Europe. In the city's famous anarchist commune of Christiania this morning, among the hash dealers and heavily-graffitied walls, they started their two-week "Climate Bottom Meeting," complete with a "storytelling yurt" and a "funeral of the day" for various corrupt, "heatist" concepts such as "economic growth".

The Danish government is cunningly spending a million kroner (£120,000) to give the protesters KlimaForum, a "parallel conference" in the magnificent DGI-byen sports centre. The hope, officials admit, is that they will work off their youthful energies on the climbing wall, state-of-the-art swimming pools and bowling alley, Just in case, however, Denmark has taken delivery of its first-ever water-cannon – one of the newspapers is running a competition to suggest names for it – plus sweeping new police powers. The authorities have been proudly showing us their new temporary prison, 360 cages in a disused brewery, housing 4,000 detainees.

And this being Scandinavia, even the prostitutes are doing their bit for the planet. Outraged by a council postcard urging delegates to "be sustainable, don't buy sex," the local sex workers' union – they have unions here – has announced that all its 1,400 members will give free intercourse to anyone with a climate conference delegate's pass. The term "carbon dating" just took on an entirely new meaning.

At least the sex will be C02-neutral. According to the organisers, the eleven-day conference, including the participants' travel, will create a total of 41,000 tonnes of "carbon dioxide equivalent", equal to the amount produced over the same period by a city the size of Middlesbrough (~140,000).

The temptation, then, is to dismiss the whole thing as a ridiculous circus. Many of the participants do not really need to be here. And far from "saving the world," the world's leaders have already agreed that this conference will not produce any kind of binding deal, merely an interim statement of intent.

Instead of swift and modest reductions in carbon – say, two per cent a year, starting next year – for which they could possibly be held accountable, the politicians will bandy around grandiose targets of 80-per-cent-plus by 2050, by which time few of the leaders at Copenhagen will even be alive, let alone still in office.

Even if they had agreed anything binding, past experience suggests that the participants would not, in fact, feel bound by it. Most countries – Britain excepted – are on course to break the modest pledges they made at the last major climate summit, in Kyoto.

And as the delegates meet, they do so under a shadow. For the first time, not just the methods but the entire purpose of the climate change agenda is being questioned. Leaked emails showing key scientists conspiring to fix data that undermined their case have boosted the sceptic lobby. Australia has voted down climate change laws. Last week's unusually strident attack by the Energy Secretary, Ed Miliband, on climate change "saboteurs" reflected real fear in government that momentum is slipping away from the cause.

In Copenhagen there was a humbler note among some delegates. "If we fail, one reason could be our overconfidence," said Simron Jit Singh, of the Institute of Social Ecology. "Because we are here, talking in a group of people who probably agree with each other, we can be blinded to the challenges of the other side. We feel that we are the good guys, the selfless saviours, and they are the bad guys."

As Mr Singh suggests, the interesting question is perhaps not whether the climate changers have got the science right – they probably have – but whether they have got the pitch right. Some campaigners' apocalyptic predictions and religious righteousness – funeral ceremonies for economic growth and the like – can be alienating, and may help explain why the wider public does not seem to share the urgency felt by those in Copenhagen this week.

In a rather perceptive recent comment, Mr Miliband said it was vital to give people a positive vision of a low-carbon future. "If Martin Luther King had come along and said 'I have a nightmare,' people would not have followed him," he said.

Over the next two weeks, that positive vision may come not from the overheated rhetoric in the conference centre, but from Copenhagen itself. Limos apart, it is a city filled entirely with bicycles, stuffed with retrofitted, energy-efficient old buildings, and seems to embody the civilised pleasures of low-carbon living without any of the puritanism so beloved of British greens.

And inside the hall, not everything is looking bad. Even the sudden rush for limos may be a good sign. It means that more top people are coming, which means they sense something could be going right here.

The US, which rejected Kyoto, is on board now, albeit too tentatively for most delegates. President Obama's decision to stay later in Copenhagen may signal some sort of agreement between America and China: a necessity for any real global action, and something that could be presented as a "victory" for the talks.

The hot air this week will be massive, the whole proceedings eminently mockable, but it would be far too early to write off this conference as a failure.

Starting tomorrow, delegates to the COP15 summit will be saving the world and maybe getting laid a lot, thanks to free prostitute sex.

In fact, in advance of the two-week summit Copenhagen's mayor urging conference attendees to "be sustainable: Don't buy sex" (which, huh!?).

Copenhagen Mayor Ritt Bjerregaard and the city council were so concerned about COP15-related horndoggery that they she sent postcards to 160 hotels reading:

"Dear hotel owner, we would like to urge you not to arrange contacts between hotel guests and prostitutes," In a city where prostitution is legal, she wants COP15 delegates to focus on emissions, not "emissions". (Har-dee-har-har.)

Pols may think enviro delegates should only burn their cash on the kind of hot Danish that goes with coffee, but sending that kind of message got the Sex Workers Interest Group steamed.

"This is sheer discrimination. Ritt Bjerregaard is abusing her position as lord mayor in using her power to prevent us carrying out our perfectly legal job. I don't understand how she can be allowed to contact people in this way," the group's spokeswoman, Susanne Møller, was quoted as saying.

"We have to defend ourselves," Moller said in touting the call girl giveaway, which offers a comp romp to anyone who can produce a warning card and summit ID badge. If you are a guest or delegate at COP15, Sexworkers in Copenhagen are accepting the postcard as payment for sex. In other words – we offer free sex for your postcard. We do this as a protest against the unjust and degrading campaign of the City Council.

SIO has also created a website protesting the mayor's action. Because clearly what this conference needs is more people protesting it.

How did the world's carbon warriors get a reputation befitting your weird bachelor uncle? According to the SIO's website:

Back in May Copenhagen hosted a small conference on climate changes, as a part of the preparations for COP15. After this conference a newsletter published by the trade union 3F – which for years has campaigned for criminalising the purchase of sexual services – told its readers that the conference had resulted in booming sex sales.

Makes sense: nothing burns off the stress of staring for hours at temperature trends that spell out our inevitable doom like a quick hummer of the non-vehicular variety. However: According to SIO, the reported sex sale boost was just anti-sex worker propaganda:

We had not experienced any increase in number of costumers during the conference. We made a survey to 10 individual sex workers, a number of brothels and escort services. None of which had seen extra activity either. One sex worker even expressed discontent and annoyance with the escort service she worked at, because she read about all of these extra clients and did not understand why she had not experienced this increase in clients herself.

So the lame Mayor—presumably anti-sex work—decided to use COP15 as a way to push her political agenda.

But now that COP15 delegates get free sex there is absolutely no reason why sex sales shouldn't spike higher than post-industrial revolution levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. All you have to do is send your name and contact information to sexforpostcards@s-i-o.dk and produce your ID card and postcard at the time of, er, purchase. As our mom used to say: Have fun! Be safe! Save the world!

Climate change delegates: as randy as they are hopeful about developing a workable international framework to halt global warming.

[Bell Bottom]

More dreck from the right-wing-nut extremist boards. Truly the single greatest source of disinformation on the planet (other than from bladder, agent666 and the rest of the right wing ding dongs).

Should they be interesting in the actual facts of the case, here is accurate, vetted information:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/carter.asp


Judgment Day is coming. Please, America. Be in prayer for this judge. Grant him the wisdom he needs with each word he speaks. This period in our history makes one tremble, but God is in control.

Here comes the Judge

The expedited trial has been set for Jan. 26, 2010!

Many concerned veterans and citizens attended the hearing in Federal Court in Santa Ana in the lawsuit against Barack Obama to determine his eligibility to be President and Commander in Chief. About 150 people showed up, almost all in support of the lawsuit to demand that Obama release his birth certificate and other records that he has hidden from the American people.

Judge David Carter refused to hear Obama's request for dismissal.

He indicated there was almost no chance that this case would be dismissed. Obama is arguing this lawsuit was filed in the wrong court if you can believe that. Obama would prefer a "kangaroo court" instead of a Federal court! Assuming Judge Carter denies Obama's motion for dismissal, he will likely then order expedited discovery which will force Obama to release his birth certificate in a timely manner (if he has one).

The judge, WHO IS A FORMER USA MARINE, repeated several times that this is A VERY SERIOUS CASE which must be resolved quickly so that the troops know that their Commander in Chief is eligible to hold that position and issue lawful orders to our military in this time of war. He basically said OBAMA MUST PROVE HIS ELIGIBILITY to the court! He said Americans deserve to know the truth about their President!

The two USA Attorneys representing Barack Obama tried everything they could to sway the judge that this case was frivolous, but Carter would have none of it and cut them off several times. Obama's attorneys left the courtroom after about the 90 minute hearing looking defeated and nervous.

Great day in America for the USA Constitution!

The truth about Barack Obama's eligibility will be known fairly soon. Judge Carter practically guaranteed it!

Video from the press conference after the hearing coming soon. Congratulations to plaintiffs attorney Dr. Orly Taitz! She did a great job and won some huge victories. She was fearless!

********************************************************

We can only hope Judge Carter is successful, the good thing is that the way President Obama is screwing up everything from the war on terror to the economy in his first year, people will not be so eager to defend him.

Just the Hardcore Leftist that hate Capitalism and freedom will be crying foul along with Blacks who only care about but having a Black President and are clueless about what Barack Obama is actually doing to their country.

If this Judge Carter is successful be ready for riots like they did in Los Angeles years ago.

A61

[Matt Man II]

[QUOTE=Pep Boy]1

"The whole Cap & Trade argument is based on the false assumption that the oceans are going to rise and drown everyone. "

Truth: Since 1870, global sea level has risen by about 20cm at an average rate of 1. 7 mm/year. But in recent decades, the rate has risen sharply to 2. 5mm/year, according to the latest figures. "

You could have stopped right there. A google search of that statement takes us to quite a few sites with those exact words. So if you're going to parrot them, think about it first: How did we measure the sea level in 1870? Anecdotal evidence?

The "data" the global warming protaganists put forth is inconclusive at best and the "models" they use are just that, pure speculation. Those "same" scientists were predicting the coming ice age back in the 1970's.

So, since the "truth" is so difficult to ascertain in all this hysteria, you can read the following according to sea level specialist Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner and believe what you will:

"Question: What is the real state of the sea-level?

You have to look at that in a lot of different ways. That is what I have done in a lot of different papers, so we can confine ourselves to the short story here. One way is to look at the global picture, to try to find the essence of what is going on. And then we can see that the sea level was indeed rising, from, let us say, 1850 to 1930-1940. And that rise had a rate in the order of 1 millimeter per year; 1. 1 is the exact figure. Not more. And we can check that, because Holland is a subsiding area; it has been subsiding for many millions of years; and Sweden, after the last Ice Age, was uplifted. So if you balance those, there is only one solution, and it will be this figure.

There's another way of checking it, because if the radius of the Earth increases as a result of sea level rise, then immediately the Earth's rate of rotation would slow down. That is a physical law, right? You have it in figure-skating: when skaters rotate very fast, the arms are close to the body; and then when they increase the radius, by putting out their arms, they stop by themselves. So you can look at the rotation and you see the same thing: Yes, it might be 1. 1 mm per year, but absolutely not more. It could be less, because there could be other factors affecting the Earth, but it certainly could not be more. Absolutely not! Again, it's a matter of physics.

So, we have this 1 mm per year up to 1930, by observation, and we have it by rotation recording. So we go with those two. They go up and down, but there's no trend in it; it was up until 1930, and then down again. There's no trend, absolutely no trend.

Another way of looking at what is going on is the tide gauge. Tide gauging is very complicated, because it gives different answers for wherever you are in the world. We have to rely on geology when we interpret it. So, for example, those people in the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), choose Hong Kong, which has six tide gauges, and they choose the record of one, which gives a 2. 3 mm per year rise of sea level. Every geologist knows that that is a subsiding area. It's the compaction of sediment; it is the only record which you should not use.

And if that (2. 3 mm) figure is correct, then Holland would not be subsiding, it would be uplifting. And that is just ridiculous. Not even ignorance could be responsible for a thing like that. So tide gauges, you have to treat very, very carefully. Now back to satellite altimetry, which shows the water, not just the coasts, but in the whole of the ocean, as measured by satellite. From 1992 to 2002, (the graph of the sea level) was a straight line, variability along a straight line, but absolutely no trend whatsoever. We could see spikes: a very rapid rise, but then in half a year, they fall back again. But absolutely no trend, and to have a sea-level rise, you need a trend.

Data Fudged

Then, in 2003, the same data set, which in their (IPCC's) publications, in their website, was a straight line—suddenly it changed, and showed a very strong line of uplift, 2. 3 mm per year, the same as from the tide gauge. And that didn't look so nice. It looked as though they had recorded something, but they hadn't recorded anything. It was the original data which they suddenly twisted up, because they entered a "correction factor, " which they took from the tide gauge.

So it was not a measured thing, but a figure introduced from outside. I accused them of this at the Academy of Sciences meeting in Moscow—I said you have introduced factors from outside; it's not a measurement. It looks like it is measured from the satellite, but you don't say what really happened. And they answered, that we had to do it, because otherwise we would not have gotten any trend!

That is terrible! As a matter of fact, it is a falsification of the data set. Why? Because they know the answer. And there you come to the point: They know" the answer; the rest of us, we are searching for the answer. Because we are field geologists; they are computer scientists. So all this talk that sea level is rising, this stems from the computer modelling, not from observations. The observations don't find it!

I have been an expert reviewer for the IPCC, both in 2000 and last year. The first time I read it (the report), I was exceptionally surprised. First of all, it had 22 authors, but none of them—none—were sea-level specialists. They were given this mission, because they promised to answer the right thing. Again, it was a computer issue. This is the typical thing: The meteorological community works with computers, simple computers. Geologists don't do that! We go out in the field and observe, and then we can try to make a model with computerization; but it's not the first thing.

So there we are. Then we went to the Maldives. I traced a drop in sea level in the 1970s, and the fishermen told me, "Yes, you are correct, because we remember"—things in their sailing routes have changed, things in their harbor have changed. I worked in the lagoon, I drilled in the sea, I drilled in lakes, I looked at the shore morphology—so many different environments. Always the same thing: In about 1970, the sea fell about 20 cm, for reasons involving probably evaporation or something. Not a change in volume or something like that—it was a rapid thing. The new level, which has been stable, has not changed in the last 35 years. You can trace it so very, very carefully. No rise at all is the answer there.

The Case of Tuvalu

Another famous place is the Tuvalu Islands, which are supposed to soon disappear because they've put out too much carbon dioxide. There we have a tide gauge record, a variograph record, from 1978, so it's 30 years. And again, if you look there, absolutely no trend, no rise.

So, from where do they get this rise in the Tuvalu Islands?

We know in the Tuvalu Islands that there was a Japanese pineapple industry which extracted too much fresh water from the inland, and those islands have very little fresh water available from precipitation, rain. So, if you take out too much, you destroy the water magazine, and you bring seawater into the magazine, which is not nice. So they took out too much freshwater and in came salt water. And of course the local people were upset. But then it was much easier to say, "No, no! It's the global sea level rising! It has nothing to do with our extraction of freshwater. " So there you have it. This is a local industry which doesn't pay.

You have Vanuatu, and also in the Pacific, north of New Zealand and Fiji—there is the island Tegua. They said they had to evacuate it, because the sea level was rising. But again, you look at the tide-gauge record: There is absolutely no signal that the sea level is rising. If anything, you could say that maybe the tide is lowering a little bit, but absolutely no rising.

And again, where do they (the IPCC) get it from? They get it from their inspiration, their hopes, their computer models, but not from observation, which is terrible. "

And there are many other scientists with data contrary to the human generated global warming myth.

Believe what you like, but cap and trade is all about power and money, not concern for humanity.

[Roamin Roman]

Obama's "CZARS"- Read who they are and realize what they want to do.You forgot to mention Kevin Jennings, "President" O-bow-ma's so-called Safe Schools Czar and star of the ever-widening Fistgate Scandal. But, of course, the liberal MSM hasn't said a word about it yet. So, here are links to the developing story.

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/08/fistgate-ii-high-school-students-given-fisting-kits-at-kevin-jennings-2001-glsen-conference/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/07/fistgate-barack-obamas-safe-schools-czars-2000-conference-promoted-fisting-to-14-year-olds/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/09/fistgate-iii-obamas-safe-schools-czars-black-book-for-kids-included-tips-on-fisting-and-piing-on-your-partner/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/09/fistgate-iv-obamas-safe-schools-czar-passed-out-gay-bar-guides-to-teens-at-glsen-events/

And, to recall how the Democraps were all up in arms about Mark Foley. If they had been truly offended by that contratemps, then this Fistgate scandal should be sending them to their fainting couches. With the likely exception of Bawney Fwank (a.k.a., the Banking Queen), of course.

[Matt Man II]

Thank you for your long winded response. Now I know how others feel when I post.

I take slight offense to your comment about parroting posts. Since I am not a scientist I have to place a lot of faith on what the experts say. The only thing I can do is check my sources and do a little research. I avoid getting info from political blogs and USASexGuide and try to use government and university sites.

I assume you lean to the right in politics. I think one of the biggest differences (and in a way similarities) between right and left is distrust. The right doesn't trust big government and the left doesn't trust big business. Do you think their is a government conspiracy of the 30 (I think) countries involved in the IPCC report? The US and Russia and France and China are conspiring to gain power and money? It is possible I guess, but I think that there is most likely subterfuge from big business. Scientists receive money from the energy lobby and then espouse that this global warming thing is hogwash. A bit obvious to me. So, basically I agree with you that it's about money.

Thanks for your post.No offense intended. It seems the scientific community will try to discredit each other on both sides of this issue depending on who is filling their pockets. Al Gore and many of the global warming scientists have made a lot of money on this, as you would probably agree, so to discern the scientific truth is very difficult even for a rocket scientist like myself.

Couple this with the spectre of a move towards a "world govenment" (not a conspiracy?), big business interests, and fear mongering by global warming doomsday proponents, and you have little chance for consensus and the increased likelihood of a "forced" solution. Of course there is little harm in reducing CO2 emissions, just the expense and economic impact, which for the astute entrepreneurs will prove to be a windfall.

Now, how do we control the Sun's activity, which is also a (if not the) major contributor to climate change?

I'm not a fan of the power of big business to unfairly influence government decisons, nor a fan of big government to control our lives and our freedoms. We need a balance of course, but Left or Right, politicians on both sides of the aisle are generally wealthy people whose decisions affect them the least, and us working stiffs the most. except maybe when it comes to re-election time.

I'll stick to rockets, they're a lot easier to figure out!

[Bell Bottom]

I believe even the Republicans were rather cautious of Foley (especially in the bathrooms) after his GUILTY plea.

As for the rest of this crud, do you think there's a remote possibility they are taking it out of context? I know, it's such an unlikely thing for them to do but.

More of the same crap that makes it's way around the right-wing-nut extremist boards. Can extremism exist where there is truth? I ask simply because the right runs all this kind of crap up the pole and the idiots believe. If they were required to present the truth, would they still be outraged? But that's free speach for you. Should these same people ever get elected, lets see how quickly they try to take that away.

But, we really know that Moanin' Mo Man is into fisting (on the receiving end, that is.)


You forgot to mention Kevin Jennings, "President" O-bow-ma's so-called Safe Schools Czar and star of the ever-widening Fistgate Scandal. But, of course, the liberal MSM hasn't said a word about it yet. So, here are links to the developing story.

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/08/fistgate-ii-high-school-students-given-fisting-kits-at-kevin-jennings-2001-glsen-conference/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/07/fistgate-barack-obamas-safe-schools-czars-2000-conference-promoted-fisting-to-14-year-olds/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/09/fistgate-iii-obamas-safe-schools-czars-black-book-for-kids-included-tips-on-fisting-and-piing-on-your-partner/

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/09/fistgate-iv-obamas-safe-schools-czar-passed-out-gay-bar-guides-to-teens-at-glsen-events/

And, to recall how the Democraps were all up in arms about Mark Foley. If they had been truly offended by that contratemps, then this Fistgate scandal should be sending them to their fainting couches. With the likely exception of Bawney Fwank (a.k.a., the Banking Queen), of course.

[Bell Bottom]

Unfortunately, we'll never turn these nutters into anything other than what they are right-wing extremists. Still, better to speak the truth. They're willing to exercise free speech but even more willing to lie and in so doing, attempt to tear down the very institutions that help to protect free speech and all other freedoms.


Bell Bottom

I think we should take turns exposing Agent 61.

The reason to refute the "information" of his posts is two fold.

1) try to educate Agent61

2) prevent other people from blindly accepting his words as truth

Barring a miracle or an intervention of some sort, maybe detox, I don't think Agent 61 is likely to change. He'll continue with ignorant posts that only intend to deceive. Again this is not an intelligent right / left debate, it is simply Un-American propaganda. Too bad he hasn't made an effort to make an intelligent response to our posts. I think IQ or ball size might be a factor. I could be wrong though. He may just be a practical joker who has fooled us both. For his sake I hope that's true.

I don't always have the time to address the BS here but will post when I can.

All Agent61 posts should come with a warning:

CAUTION: Reading this post may cause a loss of IQ points

Again, do any conservatives here agree with me?

[Bell Bottom]

You would know ALL about crap. You're full of it. I heard on NPR today (certainly more credible than any source you've ever presented) that Florida, from Miami on South, will be underwater part of the time by 2060. Hope you have a nice swim.

http://www.Nrdc.org/globalWarming/nflorida. Asp

All the "news" you've presented are from the same nimrods who want to rewrite the bible because it's not conservative enough for them. The same people who tout creationism and intelligent design as scientific. The same people who readily censor books and edit all the humor and fun out of movies.

Please feel free to continue to live in ignorance. You do it so well.


No SH1T genius, that' my point.

The flat rock islands that Columbus wrote about in 1500 are at exactly the same high tide mark as they were 500 friggin years ago.

While the cliffs of the Northern California coast are rising almost an inch per year and Venice, Italy is slowly sinking the ocean level has not changed one inch in recorded history.

Al Gore and the rest of the big flood scamers are full of crap!

[Bell Bottom]

You truly do prove the point that all right-wing-nuts are homophobic and ignorant. Makes one wonder if your homophobia is nothing more than an attempt to avoid being discovered as the biggest poof of them all.

Please enlighten us about all the pseudo facts we get wrong. Bladder ran up the pole the "theory" that all Democrats are racist. He never responded to the real facts concerning racism and the current Republican South. Most of what you post is nothing more creative than copy/paste from right-wing-nut boards.

Do you still think that Judge Carter has set a date to hear a trial concerning Obama's birth status? Do you still think you can compress water to any significant degree (oh mighty one)? What do you really know about Muslims other than what you know about Osama? Do you still think the Burning Man Obama reflects a negative view of our President by the Chinese? They must all be pseudo facts because your limited intelligence can't grasp the true unless it's posted on an extremist board.


You fairies are all the same, you want every good looking young guy to be gay.

And you'll make up all kinds of stupid pseudo facts to make your pretend dream seem real.

[Bell Bottom]

The state of Hawaii, where his birth certificate is on file, doesn't have any issues or "agenda". Only extremists nutbags question it.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-obama-hawaii_N.htm
http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/third-obama-birth-certificate-appears-in-court/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

But then again, nutbags such as yourself question every point of view that isn't as extreme as your own. You even accuse Republicans of being Democrats when they try to work together (which is what they were elected to do and not to act like children who didn't get their way).

You'll never know anything because, even when presented with the facts, you don't believe.


Snopes has an agenda too, the Obama birth cert. Controversy is not going away until the truth is known.

[LordBlackAdder]

Snopes has an agenda too, the Obama birth cert. Controversy is not going away until the truth is known.

Thanks,, I needed a good laugh this morning. LOL

There does appear to be some evidence that Obama was born in the USA. Although no matter how much evidence there is it may not be enough for some people.

Thus let us assume that Obama was born in Hawaii and this was a US citizen at the time of his birth. In the early 1980s Obama, who at that time was not a VIP, by his own admission visited Pakistan.. At that point in time US Citizens were not allowed to travel to Pakistan. You still cant go to places like Cuba So did he travel there under an Indonesian passport or a UK one? Was his US citizenship was given up when he and his mother moved to Indonesia and she married another foriegn national who adopted him? Or was he never a US citizen and always claimed ot be from his father's homeland of Kenya, and this be traveling under a UK passport (Kenya having been part of the empire). In eitehr case it would mean early in his adult life he claimed he was something other than an American.

[Bell Bottom]

More incorrect information from the right-wing-nut crowd. They'll make anything up, completely misconstrue the facts or just cherry pick to make their point.

For those interested in the facts:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/passport.asp

I especially like this answer:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081016065815AA30uro


There does appear to be some evidence that Obama was born in the USA. Although no matter how much evidence there is it may not be enough for some people.

Thus let us assume that Obama was born in Hawaii and this was a US citizen at the time of his birth. In the early 1980s Obama, who at that time was not a VIP, by his own admission visited Pakistan.. At that point in time US Citizens were not allowed to travel to Pakistan. You still cant go to places like Cuba So did he travel there under an Indonesian passport or a UK one? Was his US citizenship was given up when he and his mother moved to Indonesia and she married another foriegn national who adopted him? Or was he never a US citizen and always claimed ot be from his father's homeland of Kenya, and this be traveling under a UK passport (Kenya having been part of the empire). In eitehr case it would mean early in his adult life he claimed he was something other than an American.

[Billy3]

Up and away David Rockefeller.

[Billy3]

Google Richard Perle. Responsible for Iraq War, 9/11, and the holocaust. A real winner in the defense department.

[Bell Bottom]

Best to tag team the right. Only way to even remotely get any acknowledgement of possible true out of them.


If I knew you were posting I could have saved myself the bother.

A rule of thumb, if it comes from the right, then double check. There is a strong possibility it is wrong. I don't see how anyone who sees the constant lies spread by the right wing conspiracy would continue to be "Believers". For you folks, I have a bridge to sell you.

Thanks,

BB

[Bell Bottom]

By the way, was just thinking about how the right (mis)behaves. They fling lies non-stop and hope something sticks. They seem to forget one of the most core principles of our legal system. In the USA, the presumption in any legal proceeding is that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. The behavior of the right (including the grand wing nut herself - Sarah (wailin') Palin, seems to be guilty until proven innocent. This country is totally screwed should the right ever gain any significant status in government. Let's just hope they continue to fracture the Republicans. The Dems and Independents have a lot more to accomplish and while they can't always agree, it's far better than the rubber stamp Georgie had for most of his disaster.


There does appear to be some evidence that Obama was born in the USA. Although no matter how much evidence there is it may not be enough for some people.

Thus let us assume that Obama was born in Hawaii and this was a US citizen at the time of his birth. In the early 1980s Obama, who at that time was not a VIP, by his own admission visited Pakistan.. At that point in time US Citizens were not allowed to travel to Pakistan. You still cant go to places like Cuba So did he travel there under an Indonesian passport or a UK one? Was his US citizenship was given up when he and his mother moved to Indonesia and she married another foriegn national who adopted him? Or was he never a US citizen and always claimed ot be from his father's homeland of Kenya, and this be traveling under a UK passport (Kenya having been part of the empire). In eitehr case it would mean early in his adult life he claimed he was something other than an American.

[Mister Quick]

There were actually two articles in my post. One of which deals exclusievly with the main focus of this board. You may have found the second half of the post more entertaining.

I was a kid during the 1970s and have no idea where the reports of glocal cooling came from, just that my parents were concerned about an ice age that would happen sometime in my lifetime. Much like kids are now being made afraid that the polar bears are all dying becuase their paretns drive SUVs.

You do however appear to be what I am becoming increasingly convinced is a typical liberal. Letting others do all the work and while reaping the benefits. I was unable to find a single report from you dealing with the main topic of this board, so it looks as if you have been finding, and presumably using info on finding girls on here while offering noe yourself.


"That they can't tell you what the weather will be like next week so how can you believe it when they tell you in 50 years what it will B. "

I don't think most scientists are trying to deceive you. Climate science seems to be a very complicated subject. Scientists do their studies, form opinions, write papers. Some politicians and business lobbyists try to tell you otherwise for what I think are obvious reasons. Have scientists been wrong in their predictions? Certainly, but that's how it is. If you wanted to bet on a football game do you think a sports handicapper is going to be right 100% of the time? He makes an educated decision based on the information he has. We do the best we can.

"When I was a little kid I remember my parents being worried about an ice age that scinetists claim would happen in our lifetime"

I don't know what years you were a kid, but I found this article.:

A few climate scientists have now scanned through the research literature of the time. For 1965 to 1979, they found seven articles that predicted cooling, 44 that predicted warming and 20 that were neutral. The results are being published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society.

So at that time 71 articles were found of which only 7 predicted a cooling. That compares to what is happening now. The overwhelming majority of scientists, politicians and the public believe in global warming, but the naysayers get a disproportionate amount of attention. You can't just read one article.

Read this:

When the myth of the 1970s global cooling scare arises in contemporary discussion over climate change, it is most often in the form of citations not to the scientific literature, but to news media coverage. That is where US Senator James Inhofe turned for much of the evidence to support his argument in a Senate floor speech in 2003 (Inhofe 2003). Chief among his evidence was a frequently cited Newsweek story: "The Cooling World" (Gwynne 1975).

"However if someone who beleives in global warming wants to live like a caveman, I am all for letting them. Just don't make me do it"

I wouldn't think of making you live like a caveman. Is someone else trying to make you? If you were to get more of your energy from a renewable resource you would turn into Fred Flintstone? If we decreased our imports of foreign oil, this would somehow hurt you? Do you work for Exxon? Otherwise I don't understand the connection. Unless you mean that in caveman days the environment was much cleaner and that is not your lifestyle choice.

As far as your article, I did not thoroughly read it but I get the point.

[Billy3]

Back down on the ground Kouldn't Runt.

[Roamin Roman]

There seems to be a lot of right wing nutz who are very homophobic.

In this clip, from the HBO documentary Middle Sexes: Redefining He and She, narrator Gore Vidal discusses a 1996 study on homophobia, which revealed that homophobic males were aroused by gay porn, while non-homophobes were not.Wow! What a revelation! A fudge-packer like Gore Vidal discusses a study on so-called "homophobia" and finds. Wait for it!. That fudge-packers are aroused by fudge-packer porn, while normal people are NOT aroused by fudge-packer porn. Who would have ever suspected THAT conclusion?!

Given that you have a "0" for Report Count, reasonable people could conclude that you ARE aroused by fudge-packer porn.


Can anyone say "Larry Craig"? You remember him, the Republican senator from Idaho with the "wide stance" in the toilet.Hmmm. And YOU were just saying there seems to be a lot of (so-called) right-wing nutz who are very "homophobic. " Seems like you're the phobic one, Putz Boy.


"President" O-bow-ma's

You don't need to put "president" in quotes and his name is Obama. Oh, I get it, you were being sarcastic. He bowed. How funny.Actually, it seems the Man-Child "President" has a habit of bowing: He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, he bowed (slightly) the Queen of England, he bowed to the Japanese emporor, and he bowed to his Chinese master, Hu Jintao. I liked Michelle Malkin's take on the photo of the last one. Someone in the seat next to her on a recent airline flight exclaimed "Hu's a communist. " At first, Malkin thought it might be a question. "Who's a communist? " (The correct answer, of course, is: Both of them.)


"so-called Safe Schools Czar"

Spin: Kevin Jennings is not a czar and not appointed by Obama. He was appointed by Secretary of Education Arne Duncan as an Assistant Deputy Secretary to lead the Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools.Oh, THAT makes me feel much better. Arne Duncan, the failed top "educator" of the Chicago school system, is the one who appointed Jennings the Pervert to lead the laughably-named Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools. O-bow-ma the Annointed had absolutely nothing to so with Jennings appointment. R-I-I-I-I-g-h-t. O-bow-ma also never heard a hateful word from Rev. Jeremiah Wright, didn't know home-grown terrorist William Ayers, or real estate crook Tony Rezko. No, it's all lies.


I saw a couple of "gay" blogs on the subject, but thought they were too soft on the subject to quote from.Why am I not surprised that you read sodomite blog sites? Looking for a "22 Rules" pages, perhaps?

(I must say, also, that your use of the term "soft on the subject" in reference to the comments on those packer blogs is, shall we say, a rather ironic and unfortunate choice. Freudian, as well, perhaps.)


Jennings wasn't present when the so-called "Fistgate" incident took place.Yes, and Nixon wasn't present when the so-called "Watergate" incident took place.


In 2000, Jennings' organization, GLSEN, co-sponsored a state conference, "Teach-Out, " that was sponsored by the Massachusetts Department of Education and the Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth. This conference was held at Tufts University. Included among the conference-goers were preadolescents [. As well as high school students], who were bused in from the public schools. No comments needed here.


Realize that roughly half of your fellow Americans are Democrats. Stop being divisive and negative, it doesn't help anything. I repeat, I have nothing against Republicans. I am just against ignorance which seems to have taken over the Republican Party. I doubt I would ever vote for Christine Whitman but she has my respect as an intelligent, moderate republican. She does not fall in line like so many republican politicians and citizens do. To me the Right Wing Nutz are an "Al Qaeda Lite". Ignorant, hateful and negative.And to think that you were just imploring ME to "stop being divisive and negative. " I'm glad your use of pejoratives like ignorance, Right Wing Nutz, and Al Qaeda Lite are unifying and positive. So nice that you're not a hypocrite.

(Oh, and for the record, I doubt that I would ever vote for Christie Todd Witless, either. She has my contempt as a dim-bulb opportunist who didn't have the guts to run as the liberal Dumocrat that she largely is.)


Bawney Fwank (a. K. A., the Banking Queen)

Spin: More 5th grade stuff. Let's make fun of the gay guy.No, we're making fun of the corrupt guy, who just happens to be a sodomite.

(But, anyone who talks like he's still got a load of jizz in his mouth does make it easy to "crack" jokes about. You might say that Bawney Fwank has the potential to be the "butt" of many jokes.)

[Roamin Roman]

I always find the truth-o-meter on Politifact.com to be informative.Still a big zero, eh, Pep?

Frankly, I always find the daily bias alerts on Media Research Center to be informative, as well as entertaining & fun.

http:www.mrc.org

[A John]

Ignore all the gas crap and just look at how the stupid car buyer got taken to the cleaners:

If you traded in a clunker worth $3500, you get $4500 off for an apparent "savings" of $1000.

However, you have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500.

So, rather than save $1000, you actually pay an extra $350 to the feds. In addition, you traded in a car that was most likely paid for. Now you have 4 or 5 years of payments on a car that you did not need, that was costing you less to run than the payments that you will now be making.

But wait; it gets even better: you also got ripped off by the dealer…
For example, every Ford dealer was selling the Ford Focus with all the goodies, including A/C, auto transmission, power windows, etc for $12,500 the month before the "cash for clunkers" program started.

When "cash for clunkers" came along, they stopped discounting them and instead sold them at the list price of $15,500. So, you paid $3000 more than you would have the month before.. (Honda, Toyota , and Kia played the same list price game that Ford and Chevy did).

So let's do the final tally here:

You traded in a car worth: $3500
You got a discount of: $4500
---------
Net so far: +$1000
But you have to pay: $1350 in taxes on the $4500
--------
Net so far: -$350
And you paid: $3000 more than the car was selling for the month before.
----------
Net -$3350

We could also add in the additional taxes (sales tax, state tax, etc.) on the extra $3000 that you paid for the car, along with the 5 years of interest on the car loan, but let's just stop here.

So who actually made out on the deal? The feds collected taxes on the car along with taxes on the $4500 they "gave" you. The car dealers made an extra $3000 or more on every car they sold along with the kickbacks from the manufacturers and the loan companies. The manufacturers got to dump lots of cars they could not give away the month before. And the poor, stupid consumer got saddled with even more debt that they cannot afford.

Obama and his band of merry men convinced Joe consumer that he was getting $4500 in "free" money from the "government" when in fact, Joe was giving away his $3500 car and paying an additional $3350 for the privilege.

Think this was stupid?

Just wait until we get health care with "no additional costs"over what most of us now pay for health insurance and the best medical care in the world. Think the new scheme might be designed by the same people who came up with Cash for Clunkers?

[Bell Bottom]

Any site which has a title to one of it's commentaries "Unchurched, Unmarried, Poor, Inexperienced and Pro-Obama" is nothing more than a front for bible-thumpin' right wing extremism. Mr. Moanin MoMan, are you a bible thumper? Do you think you would enjoy a country where you would be looked down on for not being affiliated with a particular church? Do you REALLY think this is unbiased?

Informative or unformative?

You may derive entertainment from sites such as this but small-minded children are easily amused and persuaded by misinformation.


Still a big zero, eh, Pep?

Frankly, I always find the daily bias alerts on Media Research Center to be informative, as well as entertaining & fun.

http:www.mrc.org

[Billy3]

No one's asking.

[Bell Bottom]

Great article in NY Times Week in Review section on Obama and his Foreign Engagement strategy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/weekinreview/20traub.html?_r=1&ref-weekinreview

Certainly a huge change from mister isolationist Bush Baby / Dickhead Cheney.

[Bell Bottom]

Or Glen Beck - http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/glenn-beck/statements/


No one's asking.

[Hunts]

Bible thumping? Are you trying to insult church going people?

Quote the Ny Times? Those are the people that disclose national secrets but hide from the public that one of their reporters was abducted. So they put $ & politics ahead of the safety of America but will do a complete reversal when one of their own is in trouble. The left is for free speach as long as it agrees with them. 2010 will be a very difficult year for the demonrats.

[Hunts]

Roamin Roman,

It is probably not worth addressing any posts to you. You obviously do not read / think too well. A stumbling block to your evolution is your homophobia and racism. Your disdain for people different from you is obvious. Your vocabulary is telling; "fudge-packer", "normal people" as opposed to gays, "sodomites".

Your comment about the Gore Vidal video clip misses the point:

"That fudge-packers are aroused by fudge-packer porn, while normal people are not aroused by fudge-packer porn. Who would have ever suspected that conclusion?!

Of those people who identified themselves as straight, it is the homophobes that are more aroused by gay porn. Do you get it now? People who, on the surface, didn't like gays were more often turned on by them. I merely point out that you may be in that category since you consider yourself straight and are a homophoB. If your gay or bisexual it's OK. Come out of the closet. There are many people who won't judge you for your sexual preference, although you may not find them in your neighborhood.

The response to my Larry Craig comment also shows your cognitive abilities are not up to par. All I wrote about was a straight conservative republican who is is caught trying to have sexual relations with another man in a toilet. I never used the words "fudge-packer" to describe him. In fact not one negative word. My original comment:

"Can anyone say "Larry Craig"? You remember him, the Republican senator from Idaho with the "wide stance" in the toilet. "

Does anybody here find this comment anti gay? It's amazing to me you can derive that opinion based on that sentence. What was homophobic about it? And to make that comment even after you read my post? I mentioned it because of the apparent hypocrisy. You know that word. Like when the "people in defense of marriage" try to prohibit gays from marrying, but often get divorced.

Obama

I am not going to pick, pick, pick like you. Some were slight bows while shaking hands (he is a bit tall) and others were following protocol. Look that word up.

Regarding the safe school car comment, I can only repeat what I said. Maybe it will sink in this time.

Kevin Jennings is not a czar and not appointed by Obama. He was appointed by Secretary of Education Arne Duncan as an Assistant Deputy Secretary to lead the Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools.

"Gay blogs"

I knew you would have a comment on that. Generally speaking, I don't read gay blogs. When I made a search for the topic and could not find much info. I did not find the information strong enough to post. As opposed to you I am more selective about the information I post. That is why my posts are relatively BS free, while you are neck deep in it.

"Fistgate"

You are trying to create an issue here.

Hypocrite?

No, I am not a hypocrite. I have a viewpoint just like everyone else. I welcome a healthy debate of issues using facts and free of prejudice. I'm a social democrat. I can talk to Republicans, but we will never see eye to eye about everything There are, however, plenty of things we can agree on.

My use of the phrases "Right Wing Nutz" & "Al Qaeda Lite" is not to be thought of as synonymous with republican or conservative. It is for the lunatic fringe of the party which may lead to it's demise. I am not being divisive or negative. Just honest. Your posts are ignorant. If you think I have a negative attitude to you because I think you're racist, you're right.

And if by now, not everyone is convinced that you are seriously brain impaired:

"No, we're making fun of the corrupt guy, who just happens to be a sodomite.

(But, anyone who talks like he's still got a load of jizz in his mouth does make it easy to "crack" jokes about. You might say that Bawney Fwank has the potential to be the "butt" of many jokes.)"

What is with the "we're making fun" comment? Are you in a group or schizophrenic?

Roamin Roman hates:

Blacks, gays, liberals, people without perfect speech and the fact that his mama didn't let him wear his sisters "purdy pink panties".

Putz Boy hates:


Roamin Roman,

It is probably not worth addressing any posts to you. You obviously do not read / think too well. A stumbling block to your evolution is your homophobia and racism. Your disdain for people different from you is obvious. Your vocabulary is telling; "fudge-packer", "normal people" as opposed to gays, "sodomites".

Your comment about the Gore Vidal video clip misses the point:

"That fudge-packers are aroused by fudge-packer porn, while normal people are not aroused by fudge-packer porn. Who would have ever suspected that conclusion?!

Of those people who identified themselves as straight, it is the homophobes that are more aroused by gay porn. Do you get it now? People who, on the surface, didn't like gays were more often turned on by them. I merely point out that you may be in that category since you consider yourself straight and are a homophoB. If your gay or bisexual it's OK. Come out of the closet. There are many people who won't judge you for your sexual preference, although you may not find them in your neighborhood.

The response to my Larry Craig comment also shows your cognitive abilities are not up to par. All I wrote about was a straight conservative republican who is is caught trying to have sexual relations with another man in a toilet. I never used the words "fudge-packer" to describe him. In fact not one negative word. My original comment:

"Can anyone say "Larry Craig"? You remember him, the Republican senator from Idaho with the "wide stance" in the toilet. "

Does anybody here find this comment anti gay? It's amazing to me you can derive that opinion based on that sentence. What was homophobic about it? And to make that comment even after you read my post? I mentioned it because of the apparent hypocrisy. You know that word. Like when the "people in defense of marriage" try to prohibit gays from marrying, but often get divorced.

Obama

I am not going to pick, pick, pick like you. Some were slight bows while shaking hands (he is a bit tall) and others were following protocol. Look that word up.

Regarding the safe school car comment, I can only repeat what I said. Maybe it will sink in this time.

Kevin Jennings is not a czar and not appointed by Obama. He was appointed by Secretary of Education Arne Duncan as an Assistant Deputy Secretary to lead the Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools.

"Gay blogs"

I knew you would have a comment on that. Generally speaking, I don't read gay blogs. When I made a search for the topic and could not find much info. I did not find the information strong enough to post. As opposed to you I am more selective about the information I post. That is why my posts are relatively BS free, while you are neck deep in it.

"Fistgate"

You are trying to create an issue here.

Hypocrite?

No, I am not a hypocrite. I have a viewpoint just like everyone else. I welcome a healthy debate of issues using facts and free of prejudice. I'm a social democrat. I can talk to Republicans, but we will never see eye to eye about everything There are, however, plenty of things we can agree on.

My use of the phrases "Right Wing Nutz" & "Al Qaeda Lite" is not to be thought of as synonymous with republican or conservative. It is for the lunatic fringe of the party which may lead to it's demise. I am not being divisive or negative. Just honest. Your posts are ignorant. If you think I have a negative attitude to you because I think you're racist, you're right.

And if by now, not everyone is convinced that you are seriously brain impaired:

"No, we're making fun of the corrupt guy, who just happens to be a sodomite.

(But, anyone who talks like he's still got a load of jizz in his mouth does make it easy to "crack" jokes about. You might say that Bawney Fwank has the potential to be the "butt" of many jokes.)"

What is with the "we're making fun" comment? Are you in a group or schizophrenic?

Roamin Roman hates: Blacks, gays, liberals, people without perfect speech and the fact that his mama didn't let him wear his sisters "purdy pink panties".

Putz Boy hates: Ignorance

PS: Can you tell us here on the forum why you dislike black people or gays? Are there other non-white people you don't like? Are the sheets in your draw for your bed to wear or you?Pep you forgot Gary Studds, Barney Franks, Bill Clinton, almost forgot Gary Hart.

PS: Can you tell us here on the forum why you dislike black people or gays? Are there other non-white people you don't like? Are the sheets in your draw for your bed to wear or you?Pep you forgot Gary Studds, Barney Franks, Bill Clinton, almost forgot Gary Hart.

[Bell Bottom]

The far right uses the church as a weapon. They are trying to write their own interpretation of the bible because they feel the current bible was written by liberal scholarly types (see my earlier post). Centrist and sane believers are perfectly fine.

When religion swings far in either direction, we get Iran, Osama Bin Laden, Jim Jones, etc. The far right is heading down a path which would do this country enormous damage and is a direction which nearly everyone other than the far right wouldn't like.

I'd rather have national secrets revealed which point to bad directions this country is moving in, than to have my leaders out undercover operatives for malicious political motives. The NYTimes and other "liberal" news institutions have held back on stories where they recognize the damage it could do to the country. Would you have preferred Watergate hadn't been outed? We're still waiting for someone to be convicted of outing a CIA undercover operative.

Find a more credible angle because this one doesn't even hold frozen water.

2010 will be difficult because the Democrats are spending a little capital, trying to do good for the country. The Republicans are doing NOTHING but stalling. They were elected to do good for the country but are taking Glen Beck's advice and doing everything in their power to subvert any effort do pass anything other than gas. They're worse than little children who didn't get their way and so throw a hissy fit; worse because the country suffers.


Bible thumping? Are you trying to insult church going people?

Quote the Ny Times? Those are the people that disclose national secrets but hide from the public that one of their reporters was abducted. So they put $ & politics ahead of the safety of America but will do a complete reversal when one of their own is in trouble. The left is for free speach as long as it agrees with them. 2010 will be a very difficult year for the demonrats.

[Bell Bottom]

He has no point. New member.

Must be a foil for one of our extreme right-wing-nuts.

If not, he certainly has started out in a similar vein.


Hunts, I don't exactly know what point you are trying to make here.

[Yardape08]

There are many posts here that reveal a level of condescension typical of many liberals that Americans in the middle find nauseating. The problem with the state of affairs in this country has been caused by most of our elected officals from both major parties who continue to recklessly spend our money. While most American households are tightening their belts our Government continues to expand at a frightening pace. I for one do not feel our government does anything especially well and the nanny state policies being enacted reflect the "we know what's best for you because you're too stupid to decide for yourself" mentality of liberals who hide under the guise of so called tolerance and righteousness and that somehow they care more about people. Teaching individuals about personal responsibility is far more helpful than having them believe the government is the answer to all their problems. In my life I have found that the people who are enabled by government often do the most complaining. Frankly, I wish there was a viable 3rd party in this country to move us forward.

[Bell Bottom]

Many of the posts here are an attempt to dispel the outright lies run up the pole on the right. You "speak" from the middle but offer only criticism of the left. I'd rather a "nanny state" than anything the right has offered to date. Other countries which could be called "nanny state(s)" have a better quality of life than the USA. Those countries focus first on the individual and not the corporation. They aren't guilty of the current financial crisis.

Centrist is a good place to be but at present, so little of the Republican party is remotely centrist and those who are, are accused of being Democrats. The Democrats also have those on the extreme but I see more centrist tendencies than on the Republican side. Our country would be far better off if the extreme of either side would just disappear or at least shut the f$%k up. Congress could get back to work and not have one side stall and undermine the other's positions and policies.

What would you have in a third party, the outrageous behavior and lies of the tea-baggers? They have nothing to offer which this country can use. We would be far better off if we eliminate ALL outside moneys for elections. Let the government fund all campaigns. In addition, require any politician to make a full and public retraction of any statements which are untrue or even half true. Full transparent, honest and open politics is the only way to ensure our country gets back on course.

I take great comfort in the fact that this "nanny state" will be able to offer me medicare, medicade and social security (assuming it isn't completely gutted and the government [both left, right and center] haven't drained it dry before my time comes.


There are many posts here that reveal a level of condescension typical of many liberals that Americans in the middle find nauseating. The problem with the state of affairs in this country has been caused by most of our elected officals from both major parties who continue to recklessly spend our money. While most American households are tightening their belts our Government continues to expand at a frightening pace. I for one do not feel our government does anything especially well and the nanny state policies being enacted reflect the "we know what's best for you because you're too stupid to decide for yourself" mentality of liberals who hide under the guise of so called tolerance and righteousness and that somehow they care more about people. Teaching individuals about personal responsibility is far more helpful than having them believe the government is the answer to all their problems. In my life I have found that the people who are enabled by government often do the most complaining. Frankly, I wish there was a viable 3rd party in this country to move us forward.

[LordBlackAdder]

Not certain of the veracity of this one.

Obama Family To Spend Christmas In Afghanistan ("near his troops")

In a historic "show of support" for the cannon fodder that Obama has stationed in that god-forsaken desert, the President has decided to spend his vacation with his family in a tent in Afghanistan and not in Hawaii like many other rich people as had been previously announced.

The First Family will be outfitted with bullet-proof armor, and given automatic weapons. The President posed earlier today, with his usual shit-eating smile, presenting his wife with a gift-wrapped .45 caliber pistol.

Earlier, it was reported that the Presidential Family would spend Christmas on Chicago's southside, where many of his completely clueless supporters still live, waiting for some "hope and change", but Mr. Obama thought he could milk some better photo-ops from the eerie wasteland of Afghanistan.

"The southside is so depressing", said a White House spokesperson. "Afghanistan has
a mystique."

Pep Boy- congratulations on the more than 4 billion posts you have made since I last logged in. I doubt I could even read that many posts in a week and a half let alone create that many.

[Bell Bottom]

As with all your posts.


Not certain of the veracity of this one.

[A John]

Oklahoma law passed, 37 to 9, (had a few liberals in the mix) an amendment to place the Ten Commandments on the front entrance to the state capitol. The feds in D.C., along with the ACLU, said it would be a mistake.
Guess what....... Oklahoma did it anyway. HB 1330
Oklahoma recently passed a law in the state to incarcerate all illegal immigrants, and ship them back to where they came from unless they want to get a green card and become an American citizen. They all scattered. This was against the advice of the Federal Government, and the ACLU, they said it would be a mistake.
Guess what.......... Oklahoma did it anyway. HB 1804.

Recently we passed a law to include DNA samples from any and all illegals to the Oklahoma database, for criminal investigative purposes. Pelosi said it was unconstitutional. Guess what........ Oklahoma did it anyway. SB 1102

Several weeks ago, we passed a law, declaring Oklahoma as a Sovereign state, not under the Federal Government directives. Joining Texas, Montana and Utah as the only states to do so. More states are likely to follow: Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, the Carolina's, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas, West Virginia, Mississippi, Florida. HJR 1003

The federal Government has made bold steps to take away our guns. Oklahoma, a week ago, passed a law confirming people in this state have the right to bear arms and transport them in their vehicles. I'm sure that was a set back for the criminals (and Obamaites). Liberals didn't like it -- But ....

Guess what........... Oklahoma did it anyway.

Just this month, my state has voted and passed a law that ALL driver's license exams will be printed in English, and only English, and no other language. We have been called racist for doing this, but the fact is that ALL of our road signs are in English only. If you want to drive in Oklahoma, you must read and write English. Really simple.

By the way, Obama does not like any of this.
Guess what....who cares... Oklahoma is doing it anyway.
To Verify:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-capitol-to-display-ten-commandments/article/3370730
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-09-immigcover_N.htm

[Hunts]

Some people on this forum should not be posting since it's obvious they know little about the subject. They should stick to what they do know, like getting their knob polished.This is where the "tolerant" left is now.

[Bell Bottom]

As compared with the lying, misleading right?


This is where the "tolerant" left is now.

[Hunts]

You show your prejudice Hunts.

ANYBODY who consistently gives false or misleading information, either deliberately or thru lack of knowledge, should refrain from participating in discussion until they make some changes within themselves. You may find it useful when people post lies, I don't. These people are only trying to fragment this country and not bring people together. It just so happens that all the BS here is coming from the far right. Don't believe me? Look at some past statements and my rebuttals to them and research to find out who is right. Truth is truth.

I guess we should extend tolerance to people who yell fire in a crowded theatre. Think about the tolerance shown to Nazis by their fellow Germans.

Maybe you should also refrain from posting here, you're obviously biased.

Feel free to come back when you learn how to play fair with the other kids.What false or misleading info did I report Peppy? If somebody has a different view point on a subject their wrong & you are right. Funny how left wing bomb throwers are the only ones throwing out hate with the Nazi quotes.

I'm biased? What are you basing it on Peppy?

I have as much a right to post here as anybody else. Now you have a problem with freedom of expression. Shows just how tolerent you really are.

[Bell Bottom]

You haven't really given any misleading info, although you need to review much of the history in this forum. Should you do so, you will find that the left and center spend most of their time dispelling the blatant lies, cherry picked half-truths and general crap that the right-wing-nuts toss out (hoping something might actually stick).

You do realize that most pedophiles and serial killers have been right wing. The prejudiced right is also the leftovers of the Democrat party which didn't want to embrace racial reform equality and so turned Republican. See previous posts should you actually wish to be guided. Don't see previous posts if you are like most of the right.

We're not denying your right to post. You do, however, need to review the facts before posting. Differences of opinion don't actually happen in this forum so much. Mostly the right just tosses out the same crap they can cut/paste from other right-wing-nut forums. And if you decide to look around, you might find it's the right-wing which is accusing the left and center of being Nazis, Fascists and just about any other heinous thing they can think of.

If you think this isn't so, please show us examples.


What false or misleading info did I report Peppy? If somebody has a different view point on a subject their wrong & you are right. Funny how left wing bomb throwers are the only ones throwing out hate with the Nazi quotes.

I'm biased? What are you basing it on Peppy?

I have as much a right to post here as anybody else. Now you have a problem with freedom of expression. Shows just how tolerent you really are.

[A John]

Inspirational photo............

[Bell Bottom]

Obama is really a centerist. Only the extremist right calls anything "left" which isn't completely of their own opinion.


I agree. The Obama left is far more tolerant than other Nevada senators. Harry Reid is a great one to follow for left wing values in the interim.

[Bell Bottom]

What's sad about this is that it was Bush who ran the country into the ground, took troops out of Afganistan to fight an idiotic war in Iraq, blew a significant surplus, etc. And now the right-wing-nuts complain that the government is forced to spend money to undo what Bush hath done. Maybe we can do what was done during the Great Depression. We can lock down all credit, stop spending and lets see what happens.

You seem to be a brilliant economist and so I'm sure you'll agree that what the government has done is completely the wrong approach. Although, interestingly, we seem to be showing signs of recovery. Please, oh great, wise and all-knowing economist, how could this have happened?


Inspirational photo............

[Baltimonger]

Matt Loniker
Regular Member
Join Date: 12-27-09
Total Posts: 4,294,967,295 (4,294,967,295 posts per day)
Last Activity: Today 17:43
Find all posts by Matt Loniker
Find all threads started by Matt Loniker

You need to slow down there buddy.

[Baltimonger]

Matt has 4,294,967,295 posts?

I still register a 0.

Is that a comment on me or the quality of my posts?

No, you had the same 4 million plus a few days ago. LordBlackAdder wasn't being sarcastic.

Of course:

Welcome, Baltimonger.
You last visited: Today at 19:49
Private Messages: 65535 Unread, Total 49.

Oh by the way: Posting on this forum equates zero posts.

I still believe in what you write though.

[Beereal]

Inspirational photo............

I have to ask, is that YOUR child?

Do you think her or her parents would appreciate having her picture posted on this website?

[A John]

Napolitano and this administration can't keep track of a half million people on the no fly list but want to over see health insurance for 300,000,000 men, women , and children...Can't wait to see that!

[A John]

People with control issues have to have the last word. You know they have to have a response to everything, in a debate their point of view has to be right there is no gray area it's my way or the highway. Say what you want it doesn't bother me I'm lmao at your every response. See in my perspective of things it's OK for two people "to agree to disagree" someone does not have to be right or wrong nor do I need to verbally attack someone for their opinion! Everything anyone has to say here you have a rebuttal/attack for it, granted its your opinion and that's why I haven't responded to your every attack.

PS
Remember it's OK to "agree to disagree" your the only one here that seems to be all work up because someone doesn't agree with your point of view. I'm sure you'll have a rebuttal to this as most controlling people would. Now I'm done with your controlling ass. I'm sure that's not the first time you've heard that statement in your life!

[A John]

lol...haha...lol...haha..................


People with control issues have to have the last word.
PS
"agree to disagree" Now I'm done with your controlling ass.
I'm sure that's not the first time you've heard that statement in your life!

[Crazy Jim Wood]

I half agree.
Next three years will be hell.
The four years after that will be very interesting and enjoyable to experience.


I think they are doing a great job.

The next 7 years will be very interesting and enjoyable to experience.

[Bell Bottom]

Maybe we can get back to invading other countries with little to no international support. We can get back to domestic spying, torture and international policy and diplomacy for dumbies. We can swing the country so far to the right, we'll end up like Italy during WWII, Iran at the fall of the Shah, etc. Nothing like a country ripped in two. Makes for a peaceful and happy time for all.


I half agree.

Next three years will be hell.

The four years after that will be very interesting and enjoyable to experience.

[Seva Lurker]

I copied this from the 'jokes and humorous photos' thread and brought it here. This is where it belongs.

I added some comments that are my opinions. If anyone does not like them fine, respect them as that.

Oh and everyone have a Happy New Year and make sure you come back to the board safe and sound.


Agent 61

1) "Because he's no different in most ways from his buffoon predecessor"

That is not an answer to why you think the Obama post is funny.

SL - I mean how many winners of a Nobel Peace prize make a speech supporting a war THEY are expanding at their award ceremony?

2) "just being Black may have won him much support"

Being Black lost him much support. There is still a lot of racism in this country. A lot of white folks would never vote for a black man.

SL - Being black did not loose him all that much support. But the stats (we all know them to the third kind of lie) show over 90% of the Blacks voted for Obama.

3) "but it's not going to save him from being ridiculed"

That is certainly your right. If I had a legitimate problem with a politician I would also mock him for his failings. What you've done is quite different. You are posting a stereotypical image which only serves to reinforce anti-black attitudes. It has nothing to do with his capabilities, his policies or his character. It is all about his being an African American. Its portrayal of blacks as dumb and lazy reaches back to slave days and is highly offensive.

SL - But in the case of Obama, is ridiculing or even not supporting him and his policy being racist? Many think so. I'm not one of them, though there is a fine line there.

4) "There is still the 48% of voters who do not support him"

You are incorrectly quoting and interpreting numbers. Obama won 53% of the popular vote. McCain won 46% of the popular vow. However, this does not indicate how many voters support him. The most recent Gallup poll shows Obama has a 53% approval rating, down from around 70% a year ago. As you can see, even though he got 53% of the vote, soon after he had a 70% approval rating. They don't always go hand in hand. Why? Why would someone who didn't vote for him approve of the job he's doing? It's because most people, unlike you, go beyond the politics of left and right. They go beyond racism. And, unlike a certain Fox News idiot, they don't hope he fails.

SL - Let's go back to number 2. The election was close enough that McCain could have won had minority groups (http://www.pollster.com/blogs/white_vote_for_obama_in_the_st.php) (and I only read the article, NOT the comments) not voted nearly en mass along their minority lines).

5) "as time goes on, and Pres. Obama continues to fvck up everything he touches"

Well, that is highly argumentative and that's OK by me. I don't know what you mean by "everything", but you must have a long list. I wish you would be more specific so I could understand. I think he has done a great job so far.

SL - Agree that one is debatable, but I've not supported a Democrat in years so we know my feelings there.

6) "they will become a majority in time for the next national election"

I don't think so. If I knew you I'd bet you and give you good odds.
First, the country was in the shitter before Obama took office. Eight years of Bush put us there. Two wars, one totally unnecessary. Economic meltdown due to loosening financial regulations. This actually started with Clinton but was mostly done by Bush. Worsening deficit and a loss of our budget surplus. Don't you just love it when these guys think you can lower taxes AND increase spending and not be in debt? By the end of his first term, the economy will have improved (it's already beginning to), we'll be out of one war and maybe we'll even get Osama bin Laden. Time will tell, however, no matter what happens I don't think you'll ever approve of Obama.

SL - I am a Vietnam Vet and I don't think EITHER war was necessary or justifiable. Would the economy have gone to hell without the wars? Who knows, but recessions and depressions are a part of normal economic patterns. As to seeing the economy improve, well the stock market is gaining, but we're still seeing large numbers of unemployed, and businesses are still closing at alarming rates. We'll see.

7) "I'll tell you this though Pep Boy,,electing America's first Black president was a historical moment of huge magnitude."

Got that right.

SL - Agreed.

8) "It's a shame that all the Democrats could pull out of their ass is Obama"

You mean the guy who won the election? (Both the electoral and popular vote) And again, "pull out of there ass"? You really can't argue without insulting. When you do that, it only provokes and in the end leads to a shouting match of insults.

SL - Hey it could have been Hilary. I still agree with what I heard on the radio back during the Willy/Monica fuss. The only reason those two stayed married is because as husband and wife, they can't testify against the other.

9) "a 60s style Black radical who does not respect the Constitution, but thinks it's a worthless bill of negative rights that block him from becoming a dictator"

I don't know what you are talking about. I think you've been reading those far right blogs that spout lies. Haven't you learned not to believe everything you read?

SL - Obama is not a 60's style Black. Hewy Newton and Malcom X would cringe at the thought of him being associated with them.

As to the 'far right blogs' "that spout lies" are they any different than those from the far left, Islamic fundamentalist, or even some proactive Black blogs? All they are doing is pushing their agendas and putting out the 'truth' as they see it.

10) "And the election was a joke and an insult."

The election was the voice of the people in a democratic country. It is something that many people n other countries die for. Most Americans still approve of Obama. It is no joke. Perhaps on election day we should make the loser President? Oh, we've already done that with George Bush.

Don't forget Presidents Rutherford B. Hayes and Benjamin Harrison, neither of whom had won the popular vote.

11) "A worn out old party hack who wants to give the filthy Socialist Democrats what ever they want just to get along. And a Socialist nit-wit controlled by the Communist Left,,,what a choice...!"

I used to like McCain because he was more independent minded. Apparently you think that's bad.
"filthy Socialist Democrats"? This is just another instance of your divisiveness.Why filthy? Socialist? nit wit? Look at the education. Look up the word. Democrat? Is that supposed to be an insult? Communist? Again, look it up. Your rants just show how little you understand what you are talking about.

SL - Well if I lived in the Peoples Democratic Republic of the Congo or Germany or Yemen or Korea I'd wonder about the meaning of the word Democrat. What it means and how it is implemented are two different things.

12) "Perhaps in 2012 the Republicans can find a patriotic Black guy who loves our country, respects and understands the Constitution and can stand up to the Left wing haters who will destroy a Black man who strays off the Liberal plantation and embraces the greatness of America,,like Clarence Thomas. I'd vote for and support him."

Wow, I guess you're not racist.
Again, you are not offering anything to substantiate your claims about Obama. If you did, chances are they are false.

SL - No comment

13) "Barack Obama is a man unqualified to be president, he's just another Black ingrate to me, failing to recognize his country that has provided him a standard of living better than any other country would have."

Why do you say he is unqualified? 4 years in the US Senate, 8 years in the state senate, Senior lecturer at University of chicago Law School, financial analyst, community organizer, Harvard Law School Grad, President of the Harvard Law Review, author. So, he has experience in an elected office, working for a non profit, a university or a civil rights law firm. I see that as highly qualified. Black ingrate? You are joking, right? His country has provided him a standard of living…"? No, his intelligence and hard work have provided him. He would have done well in many other countries, not just here.

SL - Obama is a minority in a minority. A Black who has achieved out side of the field of sports and not necessarily had to fall back on anti discrimination laws, either through fear of them or using them, to help him move forward. I respect him for that. I still don't like his politics.

14) "That's all I have to say about the matter here,,this discussion would be more appropriate on the political thread."

I thought your post was a joke.

SL - We are never going to settle the question. Many do not like Obama, not because he's black, but because he's a Democrat and a liberal one at that.


Words of advice.
1) Lose the racist remarks. Even if you don't think they are racist, they are and are insulting to many people. And I know you don't want to be hurtful. People won't mind if you don't like Obama for his policies.

SL - I've reached a point in my life where I am tired of the political correctness from the fear of hurting someone's feelings. I do my best to recognize those feelings and not try to be insulting or hurtful. But I am also sick of seeing parts of my heritage pushed away because it offends someone. Can I not be offended too or are whites unable to be offended?

What I find especially galling is to have 'racist' terms only be racist when used by someone outside that race. If it is OFFENSIVE, then it is or it isn't, you can't have it both ways.

2) Stop with all the Obama / socialist / communist bashing. Obama is well educated, intelligent, qualified, not a socialist, not a communist, respects the constitution. Your comments reek of Fox news. They are totally false. You always do this. You make unsubstantiated accusations and ignore all replies to your comments. An intelligent man would spend a bit more time listening than spouting off at the mouth. You come off as being an angry man who won't listen to reason. You NEVER have a political discourse. You are trapped and will never grow as a person. Again, you can still dislike his policies, I would just say OK, this guy has a different political philosophy than I have, and leave it at that. But your comments are unreasonable and beg for a reply.

SL - If Obama is NOT a socialist, then why is he and his Democratic party follow ons working so hard to provide a GOVERNMENT controlled health plan?

I am not saying we do not need health reform, but it should not be run or dictated by the government. I saw a chart the other day, I just wish I could recall where I saw it, that showed per capita spending on health care. The US spends more than any other nation in the list. The government spends more than most of the other countries on health care and they have longer life spans than we do.

PS: I don't know how old you are but there have always been disagreements between left and right. This is natural, differing opinions. Debate, discussion. However, ever since Fox News, their has been an increase in the animosity that the far right has against liberals. Even the word "liberal" was given a negative connotation. Now the right wing blogs are helping to spread disinformation. I guess you're not aware you're being lied to.

BTW Pep Boy I have a question for you. Are you ever going to make a post that is on topic for the expressed purpose of the USA Sex Guide? Lest you have forgotten,


Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding Women for Sex.

Let's get back to the subject.

Thank You,

Jackson

You seem to realize this when you asked your question in post 402 (http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=917473&postcount=402). It is obviously a comment on you. Those of us with post counts have posted in the real threads. As an aside, there is no "Matt Loniker" and the top poster on this board is Pwhipped with just over 2,600 posts.

You are entitled to your opinions, they are well thought out and presented. Maybe a bit one sided IMHO, but when you post only where it does not count (this thread, the jokes thread and a couple of others) one wonders why you are even a member.

[Bell Bottom]

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was deleted because it was a personal request regarding a specific membership issue.

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[Bell Bottom]

Seems that Georgie Porgie and Dickhead Chaingang made some serious missteps in Afghanistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34634750/ns/us_news-life/


Because the Pentagon insisted on maintaining a “small footprint” in Afghanistan and because Iraq was drawing away resources, General Barno commanded fewer than 20,000 troops.

As a result, battalions with 800 soldiers were trying to secure provinces the size of Vermont. “Coalition forces remained thinly spread across Afghanistan,” the historians write. “Much of the country remained vulnerable to enemy force increasingly willing to reassert their power.”There're plenty more tidbits to make you wonder what Georgie and Dickie were really thinking (assuming they even went so far as to think).

There are a lot of critics in this forum who think Obama's policies in Iraq and Afghanistan are completely wrong. Please enlighten us as to why. They are certainly better thought out and designed to get results in both venues and we certainly do need to do something other than cut and run (which is one of the single most stupid accusations the Republicans lodged against Obama and the Democrats).

[Hawk Flyer]

The USA has had universal health care since 1936. Its known as Health Insurance. It just doesn't look like the crap they have in places we don't live.

I can not understand why anyone would walk into a Burger King and demand a Big Mac. As if somehow they have a right to a Big Mac.

You want Universal Health Care? Move to a Country that has it. End of problem.

What these pea brained partisans don't understand is that when you empliment policies and rules of Foreign Governments you get the same form of Government. So all you are really saying is that you want the kind of Government those fantastic places have.

Why are we required to institute a foriegn form of government here, simply because your to lazy and selfish to move to were it is already.

[A John]

http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com/?p=104#idc-container

[Kcbigpapa]

The USA has had universal health care since 1936. Its known as Health Insurance. It just doesn't look like the crap they have in places we don't live.

I can not understand why anyone would walk into a Burger King and demand a Big Mac. As if somehow they have a right to a Big Mac.

You want Universal Health Care? Move to a Country that has it. End of problem.

What these pea brained partisans don't understand is that when you empliment policies and rules of Foreign Governments you get the same form of Government. So all you are really saying is that you want the kind of Government those fantastic places have.

Why are we required to institute a foriegn form of government here, simply because your to lazy and selfish to move to were it is already.

I nominate this as the dumbest post to close out 2009.

By the way, our country was founded very much on the British Magna Carta as well as British Common Law, which was a foreign country. We've managed to do well with some foreign influence I'd say.

[Admin]

Reason: 66 posts since he joined 10 months, all of them in the Political threads. Obviously he's a political operative with an agenda to spread his political views, quite probably under the direction of one of many politically organized groups that are organized with the specific intent of sending their volunteers out onto the "blogosphere" to influence whoever they can. These organized groups often provide their volunteers with updated talking points, pre-written political messages to be posted by the volunteers in blogs and forums, and even pre-written jokes that the volunteers may post elsewhere in said forums to camouflage their true political intentions.

I've observed this phenomenon in my other forums, so I guess it was only a matter of time before these political operatives would infest the USASG.

Anyway, if you not a sport-fucking enthusiast, then you can't participate in this forum, period.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Bell Bottom]

Do you really believe that? You're more of an idiot that your previous posts suggested (and that's pretty hard to do, considering the posts).


Janet Incompitano and the Social Comucrats in Congress don't give a damn about your health care,,they have premium medical coverage for them and their families.

It's all about securing power for the Left wing over the masses.

[Bell Bottom]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34687608/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/


The Institute for Supply Management, a trade group of purchasing executives, said its manufacturing index read 55.9 in December after 53.6 in November. A reading above 50 indicates growth.

That is the fifth straight month of expansion and the highest reading for the index since April 2006. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters had expected a reading of 54.3.Seems to me we are better off having pushed money into the economy. Much of the right has had nothing but criticism of this but has offered up nothing as an alternative. Does the right think we should have sat on our hands, locked down any kind of spending and waited things out? Isn't that pretty much why the great depression lasted as long as it did?

[Bell Bottom]

Ah yes. A typical response from an idiot.


It's easy to fake a 5% grows rate with fereral funding after a 25% drop in GDP.

They like to teach you in Liberal idiot college courses, that printing up money on a deficit and infusing it into the economy is a fix all.So, if I read you correct, you accuse a private trade group - The Institute for Supply Management - http://www.ism.ws/ - of faking these figures? Must be a liberal trade group. (or maybe it's all in regard to wild animals unless you meant "federal" and not "fereral") As per the link below:

http://www.pism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=12&Itemid=116

"the Institute for Supply Management™ (ISM) is the largest supply management association in the world as well as one of the most respected."

I suppose any information short of Glen Beck would be looked upon as liberal.


The great depression lasted as long as it did because of the play money ideology of the FDR administration.

Any body who knows history knows that WW2 brought the country out of economic recession.From the Wiki (must be a liberal wiki) on the Great Depression:

"In the United States recovery began in the spring of 1933. However, the U.S. did not return to 1929 GNP for over a decade and still had an unemployment rate of about 15% in 1940, albeit down from the high of 25% in 1933."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#Turning_point_and_recovery


Ronald Reagan proved that cutting taxes, reducing Federal spending, encouraging entrepreneurial investment and putting people back to work is what equals a recovery from a recession.Then why didn't it work for George Bush these past 2 terms? He took a significant surplus and a declining deficit and lowered taxes, etc. We certainly don't have a lower deficit. We don't have a country that's doing anywhere near as well as when Clinton left office. Ronald Reagan came into power near the bottom of a cycle in the economy. His policies worked to a degree but the up-cycle certainly didn't hurt him. My business has plenty of analysis on cycles and when they hit, how long they last, etc. We were already predicting a down cycle in 2001 when 911 happened. That exacerbated the cycle but certainly it shouldn't have caused the problems this country is now working it's way out of. Please explain as you must be a brilliant economist.


The current administration is in economic fantasy land where money flows endlessly from the treasury and an economic recovery takes place before jobs even are created.

The Socialist minded politicians in Congress along with Barack Obama are going to cripple our economy and plunge the world stock markets into ruins, it's only going to take one good catastrophe like another hard hitting terrorist attack to set the dominoes in motion.Hasn't George Bush already screwed that pooch? Didn't he open the floodgates with his no-strings bailout of AIG back in Sept. 2008?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122156561931242905.html

Are you such a brilliant economist as to know far better than a significant portion of the economists out there that injecting money into the economy is critial to jumpstarting it?

Again, as per that most liberal of wiki's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#Turning_point_and_recovery

"The common view among mainstream economists is that Rosevelt's New Deal policies either caused or accelerated the recovery, although his policies were never aggressive enough to bring the economy completely out of recession. Some economists have also called attention to the positive effects from expectations of reflation and rising nominal interest rates that Roosevelt's words and actions portended.[33][34] However, opposition from the new Conservative Coalition caused a rollback of the New Deal policies in early 1937, which caused a setback the recovery."

Should you not recall, from your 3rd grade education, specifics about the "New Deal":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

"The New Deal was the name that United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt gave to his complex package of economic programs 1933-36 with the goals of what historians call the 3 Rs, of giving Relief to the unemployed and badly hurt farmers, Reform of business and financial practices, and promoting Recovery of the economy during the Great Depression."

Any of this sound familiar in the current administration's policies? Must be more liberal hogwash!

[Bell Bottom]

They like to teach you in Liberal idiot college courses, that printing up money on a deficit and infusing it into the economy is a fix all.Why do you think most colleges are bastions of liberalism? Do they maybe know more than the typical, misguided undergrad (or no grad)? Do you really understand what happened to this country and to the entire world?

Keep reading the right-wing boards. You'll find all the answers your capable of understanding there.

[Bell Bottom]

Bell Bottom and the rest of you Liberal Democrats,

Before I had ever read a single right wing anything or ever herd Rush or Micheal Savage,

I could clearly see that Left wing Socialism like the kind pushed by the Democrats is a failed ideology.

Wreck the market place,

Create dependency among formally self sufficient people,This first section isn't even worth touching. It lacks anything related to cohesive thought. As for "formally self sufficient people", are their informally self sufficient people?

One simple question which seems to have an obvious answer. Do you think there is a "center" to political debate? Can someone be centrist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism

Or, is any point of view more left than your extremist views just pure and simple "Left wing Socialism"?


Replace a governing system of Federalized state governments with an all encompassing, central command Federal Authority, complete with a stooge front man to deliver the lies.

The evidence is every where, in my fine city, in the public schools I attended and in the jobs market.As for centralized federal Authority being something of which the "left" is guilty, you should think about all the times the federal (left, right and center) government has used highway funding as a means of usurping states rights. Ronnie Rayguns used it to force states to raise the legal drinking age. The federal government used it's power to force the South to reform their racial policies in the 60s (must have pissed you and your ding dongs off big time).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States%27_rights


Check out this Steven Crowder guy on YouTuB.

He does some funny stuff and hits a home run in demonstrating the stupidity of the Socialist Left.

Check out his "My Videos" section, you might learn something.

http://www.YoutuB.com/user/StevenCrowderAs for Chowder-head, not really interested in right-wing or left wing satire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Crowder

I do, however, find this little tidbit about him quite interesting:

'Crowder accused the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of anti-Christian bigotry, stating that "the fact that this [Country] was founded as the first true Christian nation is what makes it the best place on earth for Jews, atheists, and Muslims alike.. The ACLU isn't anti-religious, it's anti-Christian. "'

"In many videos he is partnered with AlfonZo Rachel". http://www.machosauceproductions.com/alfonzo.html

Take a look at the "About" page and you'll find this:

"Thank you for your support and for being a part of the Christian conservative movement! "

More religion trying to breakdown the church/state separation. Does any other news organization, other than Fox, even bother with him?

[Bell Bottom]

So I guess you don't believe there is a centrist position to politics and it's all partisan. Good for you.


The US Constitution gave us the blue print for a great nation, anyone who does not see that is likely dabbling in Socialism.Not sure what you think I've been saying or even what grade level you read at but you certainly seem to have misread everything I write. I guess that's the anarchist in you.


About half of the voters in this country don't understand or don't care about the perils of empowering Socialists like Barack Obama and the filthy Socialist Democrats.

Lazy people, dependent on governmental support are willing to run to the polls to vote for the most Left wing candidate who will give them a raise.

Even the Republicans can't say no to the practice of paying every slob for his vote.

Socialism kills the spirit of a nation, rewarding failures like General Motors and others will cost us far more in the long run than if the Federal Government had just let them fail.

Anything left of the Constitution is Socialist in nature to me and should be restrained or applied very carefully.You really can't see any good in anything. You call anything other than extreme right "filthy Socialist Democrats", "lazy", etc. You even accuse Republicans who try to work with Democrats of being "filthy Socialist Democrats". Give it up.


The Federal Government issues Hi way funds to each state accordingly, mandating a universal drinking age was the right thing to do because of the horrendous rate of teenage drunk driving then.

And the South was not the target of reform in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it was a national issue that needed to be addressed, when states can not govern accordingly then the Federal Government must promote the general welfare with corrective legislation.So you don't want an over-arching federal government (In your own words "Replace a governing system of Federalized state governments with an all encompassing, central command Federal Authority, complete with a stooge front man to deliver the lies. ") but it's OK to use that overarching federal authority to push through things that are "right"? Isn't enforcing a higher legal drinking age the epitome of a Nanny-state (which you have accused the Obama and all those left-wing, commie pinkos of trying to do)? Isn't telling the states they can't have their own say (even if it's for a good cause like racial equality) exactly like a nanny-state?

By the way, our nanny-state telling legal adults (who can vote) that they can't drink hasn't done anything to promote individual responsibility or maturity. A lower drinking age in every other country has resulted in more mature, responsible drinking behavior. The USA is the place where we have kids dying because of the excesses of drinking in college.


What is being done today in matters like Health Care Reform is about promoting the general welfare of the states, but usurping the ability of the states to govern accordingly and form a power lever for Washington DC politicians to run a legal racketeering plot.But it's still OK for the federal government to force it's views/mandates on the states when it's for their own good? Drinking? Civil Liberties? Oh so many more instances. But of course, health care reform isn't something which is about helping people. We should remain with the current system where people just go to emergency rooms and get treated (by law) and when they don't pay, the states and the federal government get stuck with a bill that's 10 times as much as just working towards a better health system.


Yup, the ACLU has become a greedy, subversive, anti-American organization bent on power and control over the masses along with the filthy Socialist politicians.So, an organization which is dedicated to protecting our rights as defined in the Constitution and the various Amendments, is by your standard, subversive. Considering Cheney/Bush tried to subvert our rights with their unconstitutional, warrant-less wiretaps (among other things), and you seem all up their butts in a nice warm place, you have a skewed sense of what's anti-American.


I don't care if someone is a Christian, I'm religion neutral, and Crowder is correct in labeling the US as a nation founded by Christians.The USA was founded by Christians but that doesn't mean it was founded as a Christian nation. As per the crowder site. "was founded as the first true Christian nation". The founding fathers explicitly didn't want a country dictated by any one religion or religious doctrine. We get Iran, the Taliban's Afghanistan etc. When religion/religious doctrine become front the government.

http://en. Wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

[Bell Bottom]

But do you attribute this all to the Democrats? From everything you've written, this is what I interpret. It is in decline but more so due to extremist, false statements made by those who what to regain power, want to preserve power and those who are just plain idiots. Sarah Palin and the Tea-bagger party will harm this country as much as any other extremist movement (left or right). We will avoid a decent into utter partisanship by avoiding the extreme.

If we make every political contribution transparent (no one should be able to sway public opinion with any kind of veil over their actions) and make lies, false statements, etc. require full, public and incontrovertible admission of that falsehood a legal requirement, it will be a start back to a country which can function and redeem it's place and the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Whatever dude,,,the country is in decline, socially, fiscally and in foreign policy.

Enjoy it while it last.

[Bell Bottom]

Not quite the honest post they would have you believe.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/a-zero-pay-raise-for-congress-too/


http://www.wvtea.org/forum/topics/us-house-senate-have-voted

[Bell Bottom]

Two stimulus packages and a 54 billion dollar jobs bill later, unemployment figures continue to rise.What is your recommendation? Clamp down on spending? Clamp down on credit? What do you really think would get people back to work? Less money in the economy? Maybe we should toss out all financial regulations. Let business off it's leash to do what they think is best. (oh, wait, isn't that pretty much what happened with the failure to effectively regulate?)


Entrepreneurs and investors are patiently waiting while Democrats ignore their responsibilities to the American people and try to take over the health care system, to see what kind of Federal Tax Bill the Congress is going to send to President Odunb-dumb to sign later this year when the Bush tax cuts expire.Of course, who needs health reform. Individuals can easily afford high quality insurance/healthcare these days. We certainly aren't hemoraging money into emergency rooms and it seems like every week we see medicines and health care costs dropping so we might as well call the whole thing off.


When is the government going to get out of the way and let people get back to work?Not sure how they are in the way. Do please enlighten us.


When is the little pacifist, Socialist twit in the White House going to seriously address terrorism?Well, we have a limited military size, commitments to fight wars on two fronts and we have allies and others who we have to work through when flying over countries, shipping equipment, etc. What do you propose? Maybe we can have a mandatory draft. Require service for all 18 through 21 year olds. They can join up, vote, die but they can't drink until they're 21.


When is all the transparency in government going to take place?Lot more transparent than it was. We are much more aware of what's happening within the government. We are also more aware of the crap committed by the previous administration. They told us they couldn't retrieve emails but now it seens we can. Just in today's NYT, there is an article concerning how deplortation facilities were hiding the numbers of deaths that occurred in holding facilities. There is plenty more transparency than before. Maybe we can have transparency like Bush/Cheney outing an undercover CIA operative. That would certainly be transparent!

[Bell Bottom]

So one blip and it's all a hoax. Makes sense to me. Think local, act local. Weather is local, Climate is global.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2009/05/global-warming-persists-despite-temperature-swings-scientists-say.html

Cold enough for you yet? Just think, by 2050 you might have a nice swim to work.


After the Climate summit in Copenhagen(with all the Global Warming Hysteria) was greeted with the coldest winter in 14 years.

Sunny Florida is suffering through the coldest winter since 1989.

Al Gore is no where to be found.

And the clowns who back him on his non-sense are equally embarrassed.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iFwkSom9cg7eOCq3mv2e4uDJJEXQ

[NC Transplant]

That is the reason I feel screwed lately!

"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan[/QUOTE]

[Beereal]

Bell Bottom, you're a hopeless Liberal Leftist,,,unknowingly suicidal and numb to the political realities around you.

One only needs to re-visit the Reagan era to see a clear way out of this mess created by the Democrate party.

Cut taxes across the board, cut off the welfare gravy train and de-regulate industry so jobs will be created and fortunes will grow for those who want to partispate and work.

"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan


So you're quoting a government official with Alzheimers to tell me that Government is the problem?

Ronald Reagan.....ROFLMAO. What a tool. He borrowed and spent our way into perpetual debt. Thanks to Reagan, we're the biggest debtor nation on the planet. FUCK Reagan.

Yeah.....Deregulate industry....Bring back DDT and Asbestos! Make childrens lunch boxes out of lead and just allow them to resume dumping their waste chemicals into the rivers.

Jesus will clean it all up when he returns!

[LordBlackAdder]

"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan

I believe President Reagan stated that it was BIG government, not government in general. There are things that government is best left to deal with, and others that it is not.

[LordBlackAdder]

For all of you who may be traveling , FOR YOUR SAFETY, may I recommend a new airline!!!!

WELCOME TO TPA
(Terrorist-Proof Airlines)

We at TPA, Terrorist-Proof Airlines, are in the flying business!
We can absolutely guarantee that WALK-ON GUNS, KNIVES, BOX CUTTERS, SHOE-BOMBS or other weapons will never be carried onto OUR FLIGHTS! Since no one will be allowed any carry on luggage or be able to wear clothes of any kind.

Book your next flight with TPA, the safest airline in the industry.

Added bonus if a Muslim fundamentalist sees a naked woman, he is obliged to commit suicide.

[LordBlackAdder]

Prospective Muslim martyrs are being put off by an apparent shortage of available virgins in the afterlife, claims a new report. Following the attack on the Twin Towers in 2001, suicide bombings on Western interests saw a massive increase in popularity among bored, young Muslim males. This was attributed mainly to the promised attentions of 72 virgin maidens in paradise for the rest of eternity.

However, the rising number of men qualifying for martyrdom has come as a surprise to officials in the afterlife and has left a large hole in the available virgin population. Some martyrs have complained about having to share virgins while others are being offered unsuitable alternatives, such as other martyred young men, dead nuns, and in one case, a sack of drowned puppies.

‘It’s a bloody disgrace’, said the late Mohammed Iqbal Al Qatani, who blew himself up last month at a police station in southern Helmand. ‘I feel short changed. This isn’t what I signed up for. I’ve written to trading standards you know’.

Mr Al Qatani reviews his allocation of virgins with some despondency. Among their number are several that have clearly been around the afterlife a few times. Beside them is a group of 15 schoolgirls aged between 7 and 12. ‘Do they want me to end up on some kind of register?’ bemoaned the dead Muslim.

Mr Al Qatani plans to take his complaint further, and has written to the BBC Watchdog programme. ‘I want everyone to know just what a rip off this whole martyrdom business is’ he went on. ‘Look at this lot. I’ve even got Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II’.

‘If I’d known what was really on offer I would have thought twice about strapping that semtex to my underpants. It’s not so much the shortage of nubile young women that sticks in my craw, but who in hell would want to spend eternity with 32 World of Warcraft gamers?’

[Beereal]

For all of you who may be traveling , FOR YOUR SAFETY, may I recommend a new airline!!!!

WELCOME TO TPA
(Terrorist-Proof Airlines)

We at TPA, Terrorist-Proof Airlines, are in the flying business!
We can absolutely guarantee that WALK-ON GUNS, KNIVES, BOX CUTTERS, SHOE-BOMBS or other weapons will never be carried onto OUR FLIGHTS! Since no one will be allowed any carry on luggage or be able to wear clothes of any kind.

Book your next flight with TPA, the safest airline in the industry.

Added bonus if a Muslim fundamentalist sees a naked woman, he is obliged to commit suicide.

Some decent airport security would be nice.

Or maybe we should spend another trillion dollars and invade Yemen because some douchebag who should have never made it through security, tried to set his balls on fire.

[Beereal]

I believe President Reagan stated that it was BIG government, not government in general. There are things that government is best left to deal with, and others that it is not.

Nope, he said "government"

Government is the problem, Ronald Reagan was part of the government, so that must mean that Ronald reagan was also part of the problem.

Hmmmm For once I agree with agent 61.

[LookslikeLE]

[
"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan[/QUOTE]

The world could be such a different place if we could just get rid of government and let the corporations run things.

[Bell Bottom]

Isn't deregulation and failure to properly regulate the financial industry exactly why the financial system freaked out in 2008? Who's numb to reality?

Didn't George Bush cut taxes? Why didn't that help? His father and Clinton both exercised more fiscal restrain and the country was in far better shape as a result than what the right has done to bring us to the failures of 2008, etc.

Didn't Ronnie Rayguns bring partisan politics to the forefront? Isn't partisan politics why we have so much deadlock and failure to properly legislate? Wasn't it the right that rubber-stamped every idiotic bill Bush proposed? Why didn't any of them push back? But I can certainly say the pharmaceutical industry has really enjoyed the results!

As always, the far right calls anyone left of them a "Liberal Leftist", "filthy Socialist Democrats", "lazy".

Tell me please, of all the crap you post, why does so much of it get shot down? The far right spends an incredible amount of time lying. Is the true so bad? Can't the right stand on truth? A lie will make it's way around the world before the truth even has time to get it's shoes on.

Maybe we can get rid of all government and have a little fun with anarchy! You're not some much a right-wing extremist as an anarchist.


Bell Bottom, you're a hopeless Liberal Leftist,,,unknowingly suicidal and numb to the political realities around you.

One only needs to re-visit the Reagan era to see a clear way out of this mess created by the Democrate party.

Cut taxes across the board, cut off the welfare gravy train and de-regulate industry so jobs will be created and fortunes will grow for those who want to partispate and work.

"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan

[Bell Bottom]

Isn't that what happened under Bush/Cheney? :o)


"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald ReaganThe world could be such a different place if we could just get rid of government and let the corporations run things.[/QUOTE]

[Wooly]

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know exactly what President Reagan meant.
It seems that each succeeding generation of liberal becomes even more stupid the the previous.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM&NR=1

[Bell Bottom]

You mean the myth that government can't be efficient. Not necessarily true. It is, however, a myth continually perpetuated by the Republicans. Their solution is to deregulate. Where did that get us? The meltdown in the financial industry. Self regulation is a pipe dream.

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to why, cutting taxes like Ronnie Rayguns, didn't work for George.


Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know exactly what President Reagan meant.

It seems that each succeeding generation of liberal becomes even more stupid the the previous.

http://www.YoutuB.com/watch? V=SkzV5AIK8iM&NR=1

[Bell Bottom]

Good report today on NPR. There is a bipartisan group working to get a proposal together on dealing with the structural deficit issue. Seems that under Bush Sr and Clinton, there was great progress on reducing it and various laws were put in place to ensure it congress would address. Under Bush/Cheney, however, all that went the way of the dinosaur. So, you all seem to suggest that Republicans show fiscal restrain and Democrats spend, spend, spend. How do you reconcile your (idiotic) beliefs to reality.

I suppose you could use the current administrations actions on spending but that doesn't acknowledge the current recession. Economists recommend short term spending to dig out of the recession. And funny enough, seems like the fed is making us some money out of the bank bailouts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34816272/ns/business-washington_post/


Bell Bottom, you're a hopeless Liberal Leftist,,,unknowingly suicidal and numb to the political realities around you.

One only needs to re-visit the Reagan era to see a clear way out of this mess created by the Democrate party.

Cut taxes across the board, cut off the welfare gravy train and de-regulate industry so jobs will be created and fortunes will grow for those who want to partispate and work.

"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan

[Beereal]

[
"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.".....Ronald Reagan

The world could be such a different place if we could just get rid of government and let the corporations run things.[/QUOTE]

Let's give greed a chance.

[A John]

Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00
per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has
$31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or
$31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for
his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now
has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or
welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per
year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps
and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $9,631.00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal
still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal
now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,
gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get
a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after
school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Do you get it, now?
If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
You are part of the problem!

[Beereal]

Do you get it, now?
If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
You are part of the problem!

Yes, I get it. You hate Mexicans.

Next?

[Bell Bottom]

It's very presumptuous that they get $15/hr. I'd be surprised if most of them even get minimum wage.

That said, illegals aren't going away anytime soon, no matter how big a wall you build, no matter how much effort you put into stopping the flow, we still have the issue.

But of course, we certainly don't want to build up a new source of tax revenue. The deficit is exploding but who needs a larger tax base.

While your at it, try shooting yourself in the foot. You'll get the same result.

And by the way, wouldn't making them legal help improve healthcare costs.


Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00
per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has
$31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or
$31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for
his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now
has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or
welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per
year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps
and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $9,631.00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal
still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal
now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has
$31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,
gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get
a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after
school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Do you get it, now?
If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
You are part of the problem!

[Beereal]

It's very presumptuous that they get $15/hr. I'd be surprised if most of them even get minimum wage.

That said, illegals aren't going away anytime soon, no matter how big a wall you build, no matter how much effort you put into stopping the flow, we still have the issue.

But of course, we certainly don't want to build up a new source of tax revenue. The deficit is exploding but who needs a larger tax base.

While your at it, try shooting yourself in the foot. You'll get the same result.

And by the way, wouldn't making them legal help improve healthcare costs.

Also, keep in mind that many of the illegal labor in this country did not "jump the border".

Many of them were brought here by employers looking to save a buck and exploit someone in need.

[Beereal]

There's never a perfect scenario to the Federal Government, but Ronald Reagan came into office after Jimmy Carter spent 4 years doing the same sh1t Barack Obama is doing now.

Just not to the extent Obama is reaching for.

Hopefully, after the damage is done, a real conservative leader will emerge and straighten out the mess Obama will leave the country in.

Yes, we will have to re-visit the Reagan era to fix things in the future.

Because we are revisiting the Carter era now with Barack O-dumb-dumb,,,and we all know how the Carter era ended.

Well, it's not like Carter inherited a great economy from Ford.

But this is about Reagan. The great spender and borrower. Mr National debt.

What exactly was it that Reagan fixed? lmao

[Bell Bottom]

Here's someone who has a clue about what that statement says and it's interpretation in constitutional terms.

http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/holte/archives/005828.html

Also, I can't thank you enough for posting this. I really enjoyed finding out more about the original author. I especially like this tidbit:

"I believe slavery is a much maligned institution; if we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess." ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Rogers

Seems to fit right in with the far right point of view. OrdAckBladder, do you still think it's the Democrats who are racist?


President Obama and all Legislators. Please read the following:

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.

What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that, my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

Dr. Adrian Pierce Rogers (September 12, 1931 – November 15, 2005) of Love Worth Finding Ministries, Pastor Emeritus of Bellevue Baptist Church.

[Beereal]

It would take too much band width here to explain to you the immensity of the contributions of Ronald Reagan in a way that would change your left minded thinking.

But maybe you'll understand that, like Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama is a Socialist nit-with.

His back ground and educational training is based on Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals.

It's a situation of economic illiteracy at the top.

The Obama administration needs to fail, if they succeed, then America fails and disintegrates into a toilet like Haiti or an Islamic regime.

In other words, you don't know. So you just call him a socialist and move on.

Fact is, Obama is not much different than his predecessor. But strangely there were no cries from the right when GWB and Ronald Reagan borrowed and spent our futures down the toilet.

but for some reason when Obama does it, you ask for his birth certificate. Interesting indeed.

[Wooly]

In other words, you don't know. So you just call him a socialist and move on.

Fact is, Obama is not much different than his predecessor. But strangely there were no cries from the right when GWB and Ronald Reagan borrowed and spent our futures down the toilet.

but for some reason when Obama does it, you ask for his birth certificate. Interesting indeed.
Wrong again.........
What he meana is that you are too fucking stupid to waste one's time !!!

[Bell Bottom]

Ah, the old "you are too fucking stupid" argument. Often uttered by those who are "right". Just like Agent61 calling anyone who's not as extreme as him "Liberal Leftist", "filthy Socialist Democrats", "lazy".

Tell me, if the right is so all-knowing and absolutely "right", why is it that the USA structural debt has done nothing but skyrocket under Republican administrations? Ronnie Rayguns certainly spent his way to popularity. Bush senior certainly kept that going and Bush/Cheney did nothing but explode the national dept, screw the economy of the world, etc. In the last nearly 30 years, it's only under a Democrat that the national debt/structural deficit has actually gone down.

For us "fucking stupid" "filthy Socialist Democrats", here is a link to understanding deficits (structural, cyclical, etc.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit

But I guess we're "too fucking stupid" to understand the brilliant logic presented here by the right.


Wrong again.

What he meana is that you are too fucking stupid to waste one's time !!!

[Beereal]

Wrong again.........
What he meana is that you are too fucking stupid to waste one's time !!!

Wow, what an eloquent and intelligent response.

[Bell Bottom]

Always appreciate the easy targets.


How does a Socialist like Obama deal with a one trillion dollar national debt left over from the Bush administration?

He authorizes the borrowing of two trillion more.So, we shouldn't spend our way out of the recession left by the REPUBLICAN right wing? The fiscally "conservative" party? You still don't understand structural deficits. Try reading and understanding. It's the Republicans who have immensely increased the structural debt of this country from Ronnie Rayguns onward. Also, we seem to be making a little money off of the bank bailouts. Hmm.


After an irresponsible bail out of banks by the Bush administration, Obama and the Socialist Democrats bails out the mortgage industry, the insurance industry and the auto industry in a way that makes Bush look like a rank amateur.Who was in power in congress from 1995 to 2006? Republicans. Who failed to regulate all the crap that put us in this recession? Well, since Republicans were in power, they assume primary responsibility. Both parties do share but certainly it's down to the party in power to take the lead. Do you really want to deregulate? Will that help?

On another note, what brilliant ideas do you have? Invade Iran? Somalia? At least Obama and team have put more provisions on any bailout than Bush did on AIG? I'd love to have that much money and no strings attached! I know, let them all fail! That would fix things just right. All those Economists are just "fucking stupid" "filthy Socialist Democrats".


After inheriting a prolonged war on terror in Afghanistan, Obama thought it would be a good idea to wait an unconscionable three-month delay, before authorizing additional badly needed troops.Are you aware (doubtful) that the commanders were expecting the troop request to take a year, once approved? Are you aware that the commanders had requested time and again for more troops under Bush? Obama got the UN members to contribute troops and put pressure on the military to get the requested troops in place much sooner than they actually requested or expected.

AND, Bush/Cheney continually drew down troop levels in Afghanistan (pretty much halved the headcount), after the initial invasion, so they could fight one of the stupidest wars this country has ever started (and yes, we did start it, despite intelligence that was contrary to the reasons for going to war and with nothing but comdenation of international consensus).


The destruction of the US economy, military and monetary system by Barack Obama is intentional, it's the Hoax and Chains he promised.So, you still accuse Obama of the current monetary system problems, despite the FACT that it has been the REPUBLICANS who are GUILTY of huge structural deficit spending (especially when there was no recession).

So, you still thing it's Obama who drove the military to a state where we almost need to implement a peace-time draft? And this is "intentional", with malice aforethought? Are the Republicans the party of security? It seems to me that they've lead us to much less security. I'd rather a thoughtful military, aware of its mission, understanding the tools, manpower and skills needed in the present day. The Republicans think in terms of the Cold War. It's a far different world.

Keep smoking the ganja. Your logic is certainly based on drugs.

[Beereal]

Following Obama's Economic Policies.

http://www.rossputin.com/blog/media/followingObama.gif

Well, that sure convinced me. LMAO

[Bell Bottom]

Now President O-dumb-dumb has caused a double digit drop in tax revenues to the federal government for the last two quarters.Caused? So it was Obama who cause the economy to tank? Another brilliant deduction from the wise and all mighty dumb dumb.


As soon as the Federal stimulus money is used up by State and Federal government employees and all the parasites on undeserved social assistance,,,,the government will be broke again and will raise taxes again.Parasites on unemployment? I suppose we could bring back slavery? All those states with shovel sovel-ready projects could make the stimulus money go incredibly far. We might have roads in as good shape as Europe (aka "fucking stupid" "filthy Socialist Democrats").


Raise taxes and borrow,- discourage economic activity,- less revenue is generated in tax revenues,- then raise taxes and borrow more...and so on till the bottom falls out.Well, we could lower taxes, mandate a number of unfunded government programs and expect to pull a rabbit out of Agent61's butt. Oh, sorry... Bush/Cheney already did that. Guess we need another option.


This is the Obama and the Democrats fate. driven by lazy, self absorbed Left minded idiots, Union slackers and usless illegal immigrants who just want " Ev-wy-ting fwee".So, I guess the unions (aka Blue collar labor) are lazy. Illegal immigrants (a possible new tax base?) are useless (unless you are a Republican who wants to restore slavery and then they are ??? slaves?).


Dumbed down morons who will run to the polls to vote themselves a raise from lying Democrats who promise a free and easy life in a Socialist Utopia.

Americans following Obama.

http://www.rossputin.com/blog/media/followingObama.gifNot sure of what raise the Democrats have been talking about. Please do tell.

Of course, socialist utopias are only in Europe where healthcare is pretty much free, quality of life is significantly better, education (you know, that part of life you skipped) is better. You would prefer to live in a society which has been fragmented and turned partisan by the right. It's funny how much you exhibit the same partisan and divisive politics that saw the rise of the Nazi's, Fascism, the Iranian Revolution. Shall I go on?

[Bell Bottom]

Thanks,

I needed a laugh.

Great stuff.

You should write for Rush or Glen!


It would take too much band width here to explain to you the immensity of the contributions of Ronald Reagan in a way that would change your left minded thinking.

But maybe you'll understand that, like Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama is a Socialist nit-with.

His back ground and educational training is based on Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals.

It's a situation of economic illiteracy at the top.

The Obama administration needs to fail, if they succeed, then America fails and disintegrates into a toilet like Haiti or an Islamic regime.

[A John]

FYI, and, think for yourself.

Subject: Hope
--a must see - before it is yanked from youTube. Check out the other ones also.




Don’t be scared. Watch this video which was deleted from YouTube. It’s back.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/01/025329.php

[Bell Bottom]

I watched it and it's the same lies told here and fully discredited here.

Please present something which can stand the test of true.


FYI, and, think for yourself.

Subject: Hope
--a must see - before it is yanked from youTube. Check out the other ones also.

Don’t be scared. Watch this video which was deleted from YouTube. It’s back.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/01/025329.php

[Bell Bottom]

It's a little more complex than that. He spent billions (trillions even) on vaporware technology (remember that structural debt I mentioned?) and gave Gorbachev some cause for concern. It was Gorbachev who decided the cold war was a stupid persuit and was much more interested in internal reforms that his country sorely needed. Did Ronnie Rayguns receive the Nobel Peace prize? NOPE. Did Gorbachev receive the Nobel Peace prize? Yep.

This explanation is rather simplistic (for your benefit).


Brought the Soviet Union to its knees.

Whatever problems we may have now, the Soviet Union is the least of them.

Thank you President Reagan.

Some people here could be a little more appreciative.

[Yardape08]

Scott Brown has won the MA Senate seat by approx 100k votes. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of the Obama agenda. MA is the bluest of blue states and for us to elect a Republican is no small feat. Although Washington and the liberal media is trying to spin the Dem defeat on the fact that their candidate was weak, the victory for Brown is in fact a rebuke of the tax and spend policies of the liberals and their arrogant attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with them. They're calling it "The Scott heard round the world". Hopefully just the begininng of another political revolution.

[Beereal]

Brought the Soviet Union to its knees.

Whatever problems we have now, the former Soviet Union is the least of them.

Thank you President Reagan.

Some people here could be a little more appreciative.

The Soviet Union collapsed under it's own weight.

Reagan just happened the be the HMFIC when it went under.

He deserves no credit whatsoever. Fuck Ronald Reagan.

[Kcbigpapa]

The Soviet Union collapsed under it's own weight.

Reagan just happened the be the HMFIC when it went under.

He deserves no credit whatsoever. Fuck Ronald Reagan.

No big fan of Reagan's here, but you're wrong Beereal. President Reagan outspent the Soviets essentially bankrupting them. His words at the Berlin Wall were instrumental to the "uprising" by those behind the Iron Curtain, especially in East Germany. But there are other factors too. The pope is one that I find does not get enough credit. His "live as you were free," statement was as powerful, if not more powerful, than President Reagan's call to Gorbachev to tear down the wall. Imagine politics was as partisan under Reagan as it is now. Reagan wouldn't have accomplished anything with the Democratic House in charge under his Presidency.

Reagan is the President that Republican hope others aspire to become, but none come anywhere close. President Bush (W) was almost polar opposite of President Reagan, but Republicans loved him anyways. W increased government more than any President post-Reagan by adding the Dept of Homeland Security, which is exactly what President Reagan was opposed.

[Beereal]

No big fan of Reagan's here, but you're wrong Beereal. President Reagan outspent the Soviets essentially bankrupting them.. Yes, that was one factor and we're still paying for it today. And for some reason, the righties are still looking under their beds for the "commies" Yet, they happily hand their greenbacks over to them on a daily basis.




His words at the Berlin Wall were instrumental to the "uprising" by those behind the Iron Curtain, especially in East Germany. .
Fair enough, but it's still just a speech, the same thing that they criticize Obama for.

[Bell Bottom]

And yet, why did the vote the way they did? Something to do with the economy, etc. How much of that dissatisfaction should be directed at the Republicans? Maybe 9/10th of it? The Republicans and tea-baggers have done nothing but blame the Democrats. I suspect the Democrats will regroup and more effectively point out the truth of how we got where we are.


A little over a year since Mass. went for a democrat for prez, they go republican BIG TIME.

[Mister Quick]

I am dismayed and quite frankly confused over the vitriol and hatred I've seen by Obama supporters toward Rush. I am particularly saddened to see the anger emanate from many whom I consider my friends. Look, I understand that Rush is not everyone's cup of tea, that many prefer to listen to other stuff, but a little respect for Rush is in order. So, before you judge, before you unleash your unfounded and venomous anger on me, allow me to offer a defense for Rush. Listen for once in your lives. It's the least you supposedly open minded Obama supporters can do. And maybe, just maybe, I'll change your narrow little minds.

Let me start with the raw statistics: Rush has, as of this writing, 24 gold records, 13 platinum records three of which went multi-platinum. This places Rush only behind The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Aerosmith in terms of consecutive gold or platinum albums.

Not bad company huh? Not bad for a band consistently denied a place in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

Rush's longevity and their willingness to evolve and experiment is admirable, and even if you don?t necessarily dig their music, you all should at least respect them as artists before you all go off on your tirades.

One of the most oft repeated criticisms I hear is the fact that Rush used Randian objectivism as the basis for some of their songs, most notably 1976's 2112. Well, fuck you. If I lose "friends" because of this, so be it; 2112 kicks some mofo ass, you! It stands as one of the most coherent and intelligent concept albums of all time, rivaled only by maybe Julian Cope's Peggy Suicide. Forget about the naive Randian mutterings about the threat of collectivism; the story is about rock and roll saving the world! Dare I say that's something we can all get
behind? I thought so.

Now, drummer/lyricist Neil Peart himself has said that too much has been made of his brief fling with Randian thought. These guys have written thoughtful and intelligent songs on a number of topics, especially the hypocrisy of religion. Songs like Freewill all of Farewell to Kings, and, most recently, The Way the Wind Blows all decry sheep-like mentality, and celebrate independent thought and forward thinking people.

Certainly that should make you liberal Rush haters happy, but nooooo. You can only ***** about his weight.

First of all, yes, Alex Leifson has gained some weight over the years, but hey, he's in his mid 50's Who hasn't put on a few pounds as they get older? And secondly, I hate it when idiots refer to a band as him. NEWSFLASH dummies! Pink Floyd was the name of the band! Molly Hatchet is NOT the singer's name, it's also the name of the band! Jeez, Rush doesn't even sound like the proper name of a person! How
stupid can some people be!?

Finally, how can you liberal weenies deny the pure musicianship of Rush? Geddy Lee is one of the preeminent bassists in Rock history. Leifson is consistently one of the most innovative and adventuresome guitarists. And then there's Peart. Neil Peart is a god on the drums. Period. Even jazz musicians give him props. I dare you to listen to The Rhythm Method and not bow down before the awesome power that is PEART!

Rush is one of the most influential power trios in Rock history. The hatred and ignorance you all show toward Rush unfounded at best. But hey I may be a bit prejudiced herre since they are the first band I saw at live in concert when my cousins took me to see them in Champaign when I was a kid.

[Yardape08]

And yet, why did the vote the way they did? Something to do with the economy, etc. How much of that dissatisfaction should be directed at the Republicans? Maybe 9/10th of it? The Republicans and tea-baggers have done nothing but blame the Democrats. I suspect the Democrats will regroup and more effectively point out the truth of how we got where we are.

I sincerely hope the Dem politicians in Washington and elsewhere take up your mantle and continue to try and blame Bush/Cheney et al for our current problems. Massachusetts going Repbublican in this election had everything to do with a repudiation of the current liberal tax and spend socialist agenda. Whatever you may think this is Obama and the current Democratic Congress' problem now-they own it lock stock and barrel and their policies have been on display for over a year now for all to see. People are waking up and this is just the beginning. There are 10 congressional seats in MA which usually go uncontested. Not this time around. There will be challengers and I believe many incumbents will be ousted. Even Barney Frank is in trouble in his district. Common sense dictates that in a recession it is time for belt tightening and lower taxes not increased spending under the guise of economic stimulus or so called "health care reform". Washington continues to spend OUR money like drunken sailors and people who work are tired of it and waking up. This isn't a far right extremist movement. It's everyday working Americans who are fed up. We're talking a 30 point swing here over the margin Obama carried MA last year and Brown's recent victory. As the Dems put on their masks and pivot toward the center in the coming months I hope American voters aren't fooled. The tsunami of voter discontent and realignment nationwide has just begun. Americans see how the Dems run things when they have total control and they don't like it.

[Bell Bottom]

Are you on drugs? Do you read the news? Are you so out of touch with reality? First, what has been spent on trying to jumpstart the economy is less than 1/3rd what Bush drove up in the national debt. Bush claimed to be a conservative (aka someone who believes CONSERVATIVE fiscal policy). Did he practice what he preached? No one iota. The country has shipment more money over to China during the Bush era and wasted more money on bridges to nowhere, stupid wars, etc. It's going to take 25+ years just to recoup what he wasted.

Tighten our belt and not spend? That is pretty much what dragged on the Great Depression. There hasn't been any talk of raising taxes on the middle class and your classs (aka no class). You have less grasp on fact and history than a 4th grader.

Please prove to me how Democrats have done this. Every Republican administration from Ronnie Rayguns has done nothing but drive up the deficit. We are fast approaching a point where much of our taxes will go to servicing the interest owed on that debt.

Get a grip and stop shooting your mouth off. Look up the facts for yourself. Plenty of these facts have been presented here should you wish to be proven wrong. They are readily available if you can read anything but Right Wing idiot boards. I have trollled them and found nothing that resembles the truth or fact.


I sincerely hope the Dem politicians in Washington and elsewhere take up your mantle and continue to try and blame Bush/Cheney et al for our current problems. Massachusetts going Repbublican in this election had everything to do with a repudiation of the current liberal tax and spend socialist agenda. Whatever you may think this is Obama and the current Democratic Congress' problem now-they own it lock stock and barrel and their policies have been on display for over a year now for all to see. People are waking up and this is just the beginning. There are 10 congressional seats in MA which usually go uncontested. Not this time around. There will be challengers and I believe many incumbents will be ousted. Even Barney Frank is in trouble in his district. Common sense dictates that in a recession it is time for belt tightening and lower taxes not increased spending under the guise of economic stimulus or so called "health care reform". Washington continues to spend OUR money like drunken sailors and people who work are tired of it and waking up. This isn't a far right extremist movement. It's everyday working Americans who are fed up. We're talking a 30 point swing here over the margin Obama carried MA last year and Brown's recent victory. As the Dems put on their masks and pivot toward the center in the coming months I hope American voters aren't fooled. The tsunami of voter discontent and realignment nationwide has just begun. Americans see how the Dems run things when they have total control and they don't like it.

[Yardape08]

Are you on drugs? Do you read the news? Are you so out of touch with reality? First, what has been spent on trying to jumpstart the economy is less than 1/3rd what Bush drove up in the national debt. Bush claimed to be a conservative (aka someone who believes CONSERVATIVE fiscal policy). Did he practice what he preached? No one iota. The country has shipment more money over to China during the Bush era and wasted more money on bridges to nowhere, stupid wars, etc. It's going to take 25+ years just to recoup what he wasted.

Tighten our belt and not spend? That is pretty much what dragged on the Great Depression. There hasn't been any talk of raising taxes on the middle class and your classs (aka no class). You have less grasp on fact and history than a 4th grader.

Please prove to me how Democrats have done this. Every Republican administration from Ronnie Rayguns has done nothing but drive up the deficit. We are fast approaching a point where much of our taxes will go to servicing the interest owed on that debt.

Get a grip and stop shooting your mouth off. Look up the facts for yourself. Plenty of these facts have been presented here should you wish to be proven wrong. They are readily available if you can read anything but Right Wing idiot boards. I have trollled them and found nothing that resembles the truth or fact.



Liberal arrogance like yours will be the doom of the Democrats in November and 2012. Yes-people are fed up with the spending. Raising taxes and taking more money out of peoples pockets will not help the economy. Passing stimulus packages that give money to groups like Acorn and growing our government by expanding bureaucracies while ignoring small businesses will dig us deeper in the hole. And again you keep referring to tea baggers, right wing nuts etc. Need I remind you the Democratic party outnumbers Republicans 3-1 in Massachusetts and the Independents are leaving Obama in droves.

[Lippner]

The Obama is taking steps towards "war" on the banks. You'd take his side. Banks in this day and age are something out of a nothing. You can't stand them, they run like garbage.

[Lippner]

Somehow not covering anything worthwhile, avoiding Obama.

Gets interesting.

[Bbrenham]

Liberal arrogance like yours will be the doom of the Democrats in November and 2012. Yes-people are fed up with the spending. Raising taxes and taking more money out of peoples pockets will not help the economy. Passing stimulus packages that give money to groups like Acorn and growing our government by expanding bureaucracies while ignoring small businesses will dig us deeper in the hole. And again you keep referring to tea baggers, right wing nuts etc. Need I remind you the Democratic party outnumbers Republicans 3-1 in Massachusetts and the Independents are leaving Obama in droves.Could not agree more. And since the LIBS love to leave important facts out. Just like Clinton was forced to the center by repub. Congress. Bush was controlled by a dem. Congress. Bush was no conservative, anybody that knows anything knows that. That being said. All the money that evil man Bush spent was approved by same AHOLES on both sides. The LIBs have gone too far with the rhetoric. So now folks like Scott Brown look really good. I doubt he is a true conservative but he sure looked better than the competition.

[Bbrenham]

The Soviet Union collapsed under it's own weight.

Reagan just happened the be the HMFIC when it went under.

He deserves no credit whatsoever. Fuck Ronald Reagan.It appears your hatred for Ronnie has clouded your memory on the facts. Even with the spending, he rescued us from double-digit inflation left by Jimmy Carter. Jimmy is happy these days because soon he won't be considered the worst president ever. The only bad thing about the spending and the wall was what it did to Germany for about 10 years. So. Still want to distribute the wealth? That is exactly what happened once the east/west merged. They had no choice. And it was the right thing to do. We have a choice here, I choose to work, I choose to donate to charity, I choose to vote for people that won't raise my taxes and give my $$$ to lazy slobs that feel they don't have to work or contribute. So I am betting BeeReal can still use th EZ form and he wants our money. I pay over $50K/ year in taxes (yes I make alot of money and worked hard to get there). BeeReal wants my money and your money. Just like all the libs. Move to Russia where you can be a socialist with out discretion.

[Wooly]

Ronald Reagan cut taxes from top to bottom and created a business friendly economy and revenues to the Federal treasury went up as a result.

Now President O-dumb-dumb has caused a double digit drop in tax revenues to the federal government for the last two quarters.


In fact President Reagan caused actual taxes to rise tremendously. The lowering of tax rate directly led to twenty years of economic growth resulting in a dynamic increase in federal revenue.
Meanwhile O'Shit-for-Brains is destroying the private economy with his anti-capitalist policies.

[Lippner]

Ronald R was a complete dog.

A real annoying dude.

I had a fine time in his Presidency though.

[Bell Bottom]

Arrogance? I cite fact, history. The right cites falsehood, quotes from sources that end up being racist. Show me your facts or accept your an idiot.

Yes or no. Is there a structural deficit? Yes or no. Has it grown significantly since Rayguns? Yes or no. Did the structural deficit go down during the Clinton administration? Yes or no. Did Bush send the deficit through the roof?

The deficit means we owe money (lots of money). China hold much of our debt. That debt has interest owed on top of principle. The simple fact is that Republicans are guilty of fiscal irresponsibility and sooner than later, we will be paying more and more just to service the interest on the moneys we owe.

This little graph shows quite clearly the part 4 presidents and deficits.

http://www.Intelligentguess.com/blog/2007/04/15/USA-fiscal-deficit-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-under-the-recent-four-presidencies-since-1980/

As for the stimulus, it was Bush who started handing out cash with no strings attached. Obama has made attempts to get regulations back in place, put strings attached to any moneys handed out. And the only response from the right is to criticize. Their only agenda is to put a Republican back in power and they will misconstrue, slander, misstate and even lie to get their way. The Mass election was more about the right playing to the fears and emotions of the masses who don't bother to know enough (like you) to understand what's truth and what's plain and simple dreck. They voted for dreck.

By the way, how did any stimulus money help ACORN? That's just more idiocy. Did the Stimulus grow our government? No. It did nothing but hand money to the states with the provision that they use it to stimulate growth. Please try and cite things that actually make sense.


Liberal arrogance like yours will be the doom of the Democrats in November and 2012. Yes-people are fed up with the spending. Raising taxes and taking more money out of peoples pockets will not help the economy. Passing stimulus packages that give money to groups like Acorn and growing our government by expanding bureaucracies while ignoring small businesses will dig us deeper in the hole. And again you keep referring to tea baggers, right wing nuts etc. Need I remind you the Democratic party outnumbers Republicans 3-1 in Massachusetts and the Independents are leaving Obama in droves.

[Bell Bottom]

Please review the following link. It shows exactly what happened to our deficit under Rayguns, Clinton and Bush. His tax cuts only drove us further into the hole. If tax cuts would work like you suppose, why did the economy get so bad under Bush who cut taxes (especially to the rich).

http://www.intelligentguess.com/blog/2007/04/15/usa-fiscal-deficit-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-under-the-recent-four-presidencies-since-1980/


In fact President Reagan caused actual taxes to rise tremendously. The lowering of tax rate directly led to twenty years of economic growth resulting in a dynamic increase in federal revenue.

Meanwhile O'Shit-for-Brains is destroying the private economy with his anti-capitalist policies.

[Bell Bottom]

I'd side with regulations that prevent the backs leading us over the cliff again. Regulation doesn't mean they can't make money. It simply means they have to manage money responsibly which they certainly didn't. Deregulation and a financial over-site structure that needs overhauling caused the economy to freakout in 2008.


The Obama is taking steps towards "war" on the banks. You'd take his side. Banks in this day and age are something out of a nothing. You can't stand them, they run like garbage.

[Bell Bottom]

So, if I'm reading you right (and it takes a lot to figure out this fragmented POS), it's Congress that forced Clinton to the center, etc. Under Clinton, there was never any point where the Democrats had super majorities in both the house and the senate but in 1995 Republicans gained control. Under Bush super majorities existed in both houses. During these times the Republicans rubber stamped a lot of legislation Bush wanted. Don't blame the Dems for the crap done under Bush. The Democrats are guilty of lowering the deficit.


Could not agree more. And since the LIBS love to leave important facts out. Just like Clinton was forced to the center by repub. Congress. Bush was controlled by a dem. Congress. Bush was no conservative, anybody that knows anything knows that. That being said. All the money that evil man Bush spent was approved by same AHOLES on both sides. The LIBs have gone too far with the rhetoric. So now folks like Scott Brown look really good. I doubt he is a true conservative but he sure looked better than the competition.

[Lippner]

January 27th, 2010.

DNC Chairman Tim Kaine Says Supreme Court Ruling on Campaign Finance Undermines Free and Fair Elections and Democracy - Must Not be Allowed to Stand

http://www.democrats.org/blog.html

[Baltimonger]

The Obama is taking steps towards "war" on the banks. You'd take his side. Banks in this day and age are something out of a nothing. You can't stand them, they run like garbage.

Bank have been "something out of nothing" since the creation of the Federal Reserve system 100 years ago. The Fed is 12 private and powerful banks who tell the Treasury Dept. how much money to print, and set interest rates on what they loan to the smaller banks and the government. We the people pay huge sums of money in interest back to the Fed every year. They own the country. The rest of us are just renters. There is no gold or silver standard to back up the money flowing through the system. Money not really worth the paper it's printed on. Obama is very much a capitalist. Pumping huge amounts of money into the banking system and private industry to try to jump start a flagging economy is not the work of socialism. Why wouldn't he be a capitalist? He has wealth, and he doesn't distribute his personal wealth to the masses in order to make himself "equal".

[Bell Bottom]

So true. The policies Obama's advocating are drumming up support for Paul Volcker, who has been advocating these changes for some time. Some of you may remember him as the person most directly responsible for getting inflation under control under Ronnie Rayguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Volcker


Bank have been "something out of nothing" since the creation of the Federal Reserve system 100 years ago. The Fed is 12 private and powerful banks who tell the Treasury Dept. how much money to print, and set interest rates on what they loan to the smaller banks and the government. We the people pay huge sums of money in interest back to the Fed every year. They own the country. The rest of us are just renters. There is no gold or silver standard to back up the money flowing through the system. Money not really worth the paper it's printed on. Obama is very much a capitalist. Pumping huge amounts of money into the banking system and private industry to try to jump start a flagging economy is not the work of socialism. Why wouldn't he be a capitalist? He has wealth, and he doesn't distribute his personal wealth to the masses in order to make himself "equal".

[Yardape08]

It's a little more complex than that. He spent billions (trillions even) on vaporware technology (remember that structural debt I mentioned?) and gave Gorbachev some cause for concern. It was Gorbachev who decided the cold war was a stupid persuit and was much more interested in internal reforms that his country sorely needed. Did Ronnie Rayguns receive the Nobel Peace prize? NOPE. Did Gorbachev receive the Nobel Peace prize? Yep.

This explanation is rather simplistic (for your benefit).

Your conclusion is shallow.The Nobel Peace Prize is hardly given out objectively. Obama won a few months ago although the vote tally was in and the envelope sealed by the beginning of Feb 2009-mere days after he was inaugurated.

Even the liberal media and members of his own party were snickering over that one. Not to mention the political bent of the Nobel voting members of socialist Sweden. They are biased and would never give the award to a conservative. Recent winners include Al Gore and Yasser Arafat. Al Gore? Give me a break. They give the award to whoever suits their agenda. The award has become a joke.

Reagan stood up to them at a time when the liberals were promoting a voluntary nuclear freeze in Europe and Ted Kennedy was sending treasonous letters to Soviet officials basically offering to help them thwart Reagan's policies. For everyone's concerns about Reagan at the time he did win the cold war without firing a shot. I would give credit to Reagan, Pope John Paul, Margaret Thatcher and also Gorbachev. But the lions share of the credit belongs to Reagan. When Reagan lost the Republican nomination to Gerald Ford in 1976, he invited Richard Allen a foreign policy advisor to his ranch for a discussion on his views of the cold war. He told Allen his basic view in simple terms. "How about we win they lose" was the quote. A stark contrast from the appeasing liberal stategy of the late 70's and 80's which in fact if implemented would have prolonged the situation.

[Yardape08]

Arrogance? I cite fact, history. The right cites falsehood, quotes from sources that end up being racist. Show me your facts or accept your an idiot.

The Mass election was more about the right playing to the fears and emotions of the masses who don't bother to know enough (like you) to understand what's truth and what's plain and simple dreck. They voted for dreck.

.

There you go again-anybody who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. You guys certainly are an arrogant bunch. And your condescension regarding the comment about MA voters. Once again you imply that we're just not as smart as the liberal left to understand anything. I hope the Democrat incumbents employ your strategy in November.

I was not happy with Bush spending the way he did. He and other Republican moderates are always trying to appease the Democrats instead of standing by their principles. I believe the far left is much more dangerous to this country than the far right.

Obama's so called stimulus package is nothing more than a slush fund for his groups and most of it hasn't even been spent yet. In addition he wants to tackle health care raising taxes significantly on people who already have insurance. Then Cap and Trade taking more money out of business and individuals, and now he wants to raise the debt ceiling by another 1.9 trillion dollars.

Talk about playing to peoples fears and emotions-the bogus Global Warming hype is the prime example of that.

And I guess anyone who doesn't agree with Obama and the dems are all racist too. Someone tried to argue that Bill Clinton and Harry Reid's recent comments couldn't be construed as racist because of all the legislation they've backed for minorities. Liberals believe that their intentions guided by their emotions make all their policies right and just. I believe many of these policies have held minorities back for years. When a Republican votes against affirmative action or government handouts to minorities he is immediately branded as not caring about them. LBJ's welfare expansion and socialist policies of the 60's have in fact kept many minorities down and stagnant. And there is a clear double standard when it comes to the media and their so called reporting of racial comments by politicians.

For me the bottom line is I don't trust most politicians of either party. But I would rather have the conservatives in power any day. I guess that kind of thinking just makes me a complete idiot like the rest of the voters in MA recently including Democrats and Independents. So keep on belittling me and others in this forum with your personal comments.

[Bell Bottom]

There you go again-anybody who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. You guys certainly are an arrogant bunch. And your condescension regarding the comment about MA voters. Once again you imply that we're just not as smart as the liberal left to understand anything. I hope the Democrat incumbents employ your strategy in November.Anybody who doesn't look up the FACTS is an idiot. Conservatives (some) are smart. Most voters do not, in fact, understand the issues. Most blindly vote one party. The Democrats haven't defended themselves very well against the right which has completely misconstrued the facts surrounding the recession, blaming Obama for causing it, blaming him for spending money foolishly (like you). It's been presented here a number of times the facts about recessions and depressions and how belt tightening by the government doesn't help.


I was not happy with Bush spending the way he did. He and other Republican moderates are always trying to appease the Democrats instead of standing by their principles. I believe the far left is much more dangerous to this country than the far right.The far right is significantly comprised of bible thumpers. They would lead us down the same path as we've seen in Iran and Afghanistan. There are even elements of the right which are now trying to rewrite the bible (see previous posts in this forum) since they say it was written by "liberal scholars". I wouldn't want either the right or the left to hold sway in this country. The left, however, is more concerned with the people and not with corporations.


Obama's so called stimulus package is nothing more than a slush fund for his groups and most of it hasn't even been spent yet. In addition he wants to tackle health care raising taxes significantly on people who already have insurance. Then Cap and Trade taking more money out of business and individuals, and now he wants to raise the debt ceiling by another 1. 9 trillion dollars.A slush fund for his groups? So, giving to the states (all of them and in equal proportion to population) is his groups? Yes. All US citizens are his groups. As for insurance, you still don't understand and only listen to the right. The taxes were for premium insurance packages (like those given to executives who certainly get enormous benefits all around) and not on the common individual or small company. The truth will set you free.


Talk about playing to peoples fears and emotions-the bogus Global Warming hype is the prime example of that.There are some who said that the recent cold snap in the South was a sure sign that global warming is a hoax. Are you aware that during that cold snap, the temperature in the Arctic was 15. 20 degrees warmer? Are you aware that recent predictions for the Greenland ice cap are for a complete melt by 2100 and that the result just from that ice sheet would raise sea level by over 23ft? And this doesn't factor in the Antarctic which has MUCH more water ice. Rhode Island, Boston and Florida will be quite different places. You can believe all you want that Global Warming doesn't exist but that won't stop it from happening.

http://heartspring.net/global_warming_greenhouse.html


And I guess anyone who doesn't agree with Obama and the dems are all racist too. Someone tried to argue that Bill Clinton and Harry Reid's recent comments couldn't be construed as racist because of all the legislation they've backed for minorities. Liberals believe that their intentions guided by their emotions make all their policies right and just. I believe many of these policies have held minorities back for years. When a Republican votes against affirmative action or government handouts to minorities he is immediately branded as not caring about them. LBJ's welfare expansion and socialist policies of the 60's have in fact kept many minorities down and stagnant. And there is a clear double standard when it comes to the media and their so called reporting of racial comments by politicians.The right has dredged up quotes from Dr. Adrian Pierce Rogers

http://usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php? P=927167&postcount=419

In support of their views. In the "good" docotor's own words, "I believe slavery is a much maligned institution; if we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess. "

Others have quotes numerous times how Democrats are racist but have said nothing when presented with the fact that the South became Republican in the 50s and 60s when the Democrats embraced racial reform. Not all of the right is racist but it's not hard to find elements that are.


For me the bottom line is I don't trust most politicians of either party. But I would rather have the conservatives in power any day. I guess that kind of thinking just makes me a complete idiot like the rest of the voters in MA recently including Democrats and Independents. So keep on belittling me and others in this forum with your personal comments.OK. Will do. Yes. It's good not to trust politicians. I would rather a party/movement concerned more with the individual. Conservatives don't seem to present that concern.

[Bell Bottom]

So, I guess Henry Kissinger and Theodore Roosevelt were liberals (by your standard). But of course, the right accuses anyone not as right as them of being a Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt

Funny how little you understand sentiment around the world towards the USA. Under Bush, the world saw nothing but bad. Obama has, in fact, inspired the world to believe that we can be better. Only the right seems to think that's a joke. I choose to believe we can be better.

Believe what you want. Keep smoking the cool-aide. It does a body good.


Your conclusion is shallow.The Nobel Peace Prize is hardly given out objectively. Obama won a few months ago although the vote tally was in and the envelope sealed by the beginning of Feb 2009-mere days after he was inaugurated.

Even the liberal media and members of his own party were snickering over that one. Not to mention the political bent of the Nobel voting members of socialist Sweden. They are biased and would never give the award to a conservative. Recent winners include Al Gore and Yasser Arafat. Al Gore? Give me a break. They give the award to whoever suits their agenda. The award has become a joke.

Reagan stood up to them at a time when the liberals were promoting a voluntary nuclear freeze in Europe and Ted Kennedy was sending treasonous letters to Soviet officials basically offering to help them thwart Reagan's policies. For everyone's concerns about Reagan at the time he did win the cold war without firing a shot. I would give credit to Reagan, Pope John Paul, Margaret Thatcher and also Gorbachev. But the lions share of the credit belongs to Reagan. When Reagan lost the Republican nomination to Gerald Ford in 1976, he invited Richard Allen a foreign policy advisor to his ranch for a discussion on his views of the cold war. He told Allen his basic view in simple terms. "How about we win they lose" was the quote. A stark contrast from the appeasing liberal stategy of the late 70's and 80's which in fact if implemented would have prolonged the situation.

[Kcbigpapa]

Fair enough, but it's still just a speech, the same thing that they criticize Obama for.

Some speeches have been known to move mountains. The pope's speech in Poland telling them "to live as you were free" and Reagan's Berlin Wall speech were not just speeches, but encouragement to those oppressed behind the Iron Curtain to uprise, to remain strong, to know we were with them. When those oppressed hear the speeches, it is as much as a unifying speech as Obama's "Yes We Can" speech. Don't be like these Republicans, and some Democrats, on this board. Give credit where it is due. Call out the BS on both sides of the party line and it makes your argument that much more valid. Like I said. I am no fan of Reagan, but his foreign policy did help to bring down the Soviet Union, as did Kennedy's show of US resolve during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Yardape08]

Okay- you cite 2 conservatives out of 109 years of Nobel prizes. And since you are so big on FACTS. Where is the fact that Obama has inspired the world? That is opinion-not fact. If you are citing European liberals I'm sure they are more happy with Obama. You say under Bush the world saw nothing but bad-once again this is conjecture certainly advanced by the liberal media fanning the anti Bush flames. The protests in Europe against Reagan in the 80's were far worse than any against Bush. As Teddy Roosevelt once said "The world will never love us. They respect us - they might even grow to fear us. But they will never love us"
As for the Islamic nations I would say it is safe to say that based on their extreme religious views the liberals in this country are a greater threat to their beliefs. I wonder how they feel about abortion, gay rights and all the sex in movies and television coming out of liberal Hollywood. They hate our whole way of life and it doesn't matter who is in charge. How has the hope and change man affected the world so far? I haven't seen any evidence of anything. I'll tell you one thing though I am one American who is tired of him blaming us for everything.

P.S. Sorry I don't have any links speaking for me all the time. You attempt to belittle me and state I don't have any facts. Anybody can google the internet and come up with additional information-doesn't mean it is always fact. There are just as many left leaning kook sites as those on the right. And there are always differing points of view, articles etc on economics, global warming etc. And frankly many news organizations are highly suspect with their own agendas as well.


So, I guess Henry Kissinger and Theodore Roosevelt were liberals (by your standard). But of course, the right accuses anyone not as right as them of being a Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt

Funny how little you understand sentiment around the world towards the USA. Under Bush, the world saw nothing but bad. Obama has, in fact, inspired the world to believe that we can be better. Only the right seems to think that's a joke. I choose to believe we can be better.

Believe what you want. Keep smoking the cool-aide. It does a body good.

[Yardape08]

Anybody who doesn't look up the FACTS is an idiot. Conservatives (some) are smart. Most voters do not, in fact, understand the issues. Most blindly vote one party. The Democrats haven't defended themselves very well against the right which has completely misconstrued the facts surrounding the recession, blaming Obama for causing it, blaming him for spending money foolishly (like you). It's been presented here a number of times the facts about recessions and depressions and how belt tightening by the government doesn't help.
.

Nice of you to label most voters as "idiots". I guess your theory then would also mean that most people who voted for Obama fit that category as well. If you have a nuanced position yours is always fact. But someone who doesn't agree with you is just plain stupid I guess in your eyes.

In the recent election nobody was blaming the recession on Obama. In fact Scott Brown took the high road which is more than I can say about his adversary. Yes-I do feel he is spending money foolishly. Spending money in a recession to stimulate the economy is one thing, increasing the size of government while ignoring the private sector in a recession is foolish.


Government salaries soar in bad times
Examiner Editorial
December 14, 2009 Something President Obama said during his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech in Oslo about making foreign policy is equally applicable at home, namely, that the world must be dealt with as it is, not as we might wish it to be. This was highlighted by a USA Today investigative report published last week that found "federal workers are enjoying an extraordinary boom time -- in pay and hiring -- during a recession that has cost 7.3 million jobs in the private sector." In other words, bad times for the rest of us are good times for the federal establishment.

This recession has been such a boom time for the tax-supported bureaucracy that "federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months -- and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted." USA Today was especially struck by the fact that there was only one career federal worker making an annual salary of $170,000 or more at the U.S. Department of Transportation when the current recession began. Today, 18 months later, there are more than 1,600 career employees making that much at Transportation. We can only hope that none of those additional 1,600-plus high-paid workers was responsible for the $2 billion Cash for Clunkers debacle run by the Transportation Department.

Hot Air's Ed Morrissey points out something else that has occurred as the ranks of six-digit career government workers in Washington surged: "It's not as if they've been asked to do more with less, either. In the first six months of the year, the federal government was adding 10,000 jobs per month, and over the recession had grown the ranks of bureaucrats by 9.8 percent. The private sector, during that same period, shed 7.3 million jobs."

Hard times for folks outside of the federal establishment are also good times for Washington politicians with their never-ending thirst for finding new ways of grabbing tax dollars to benefit themselves, members of their families, present or former staff members, friends, or campaign donors. The $448 billion appropriations bill approved last week by the House contained more than 5,000 earmarks, many of which will ultimately benefit the favored few rather than the suffering many. It's helpful to keep these realities about Washington bureaucrats and politicians in mind the next time one of them steps forward and proposes solving another crisis with billions more tax dollars.

[Cowboy01]

Guy goes into a bar, there's a robot bartender.

The robot says, "What will you have?"

The guy says, "Martini."

The robot brings back the best martini ever and says to the Man, "What's your IQ? "

The guy says, "168."

The robot then proceeds to talk about physics, space exploration and medical technology.

The guy leaves, but he is curious.

So he goes back into the bar.

The robot bartender says, "What will you have?"

The guy says, "Martini."

Again, the robot makes a great martini gives it to the man and

Says, "What's your IQ?"

The guy says, "100."

The robot then starts to talk about Nascar, Budweiser and John Deere tractors.

The guy leaves, but finds it very interesting,

So he thinks he will try it one more time.

He goes back into the bar.

The robot says, "What will you have? "

The guy says, "Martini," and the robot brings him another great martini.

The robot then says, "What's your IQ?"

The guy says, "Uh, about 50."

The robot leans in real close and says,

"So, you people still happy you voted for Obama?"

[Cowboy01]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McfkyBFiiIE

[Bell Bottom]

The truth will set you free.

You forgot some of the story:

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20091211/1afedpay11_st.art.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Key reasons for the boom in six-figure salaries:

•Pay hikes. Then-president Bush recommended — and Congress approved — across-the-board raises of 3% in January 2008 and 3.9% in January 2009. President Obama has recommended 2% pay raises in January 2010, the smallest since 1975. Most federal workers also get longevity pay hikes — called steps — that average 1.5% per year.

•New pay system. Congress created a new National Security Personnel System for the Defense Department to reward merit, in addition to the across-the-board increases. The merit raises, which started in January 2008, were larger than expected and rewarded high-ranking employees. In October, Congress voted to end the new pay scale by 2012.

•Pay caps eased. Many top civil servants are prohibited from making more than an agency's leader. But if Congress lifts the boss' salary, others get raises, too. When the Federal Aviation Administration chief's salary rose, nearly 1,700 employees' had their salaries lifted above $170,000, too.


Nice of you to label most voters as "idiots". I guess your theory then would also mean that most people who voted for Obama fit that category as well. If you have a nuanced position yours is always fact. But someone who doesn't agree with you is just plain stupid I guess in your eyes.

In the recent election nobody was blaming the recession on Obama. In fact Scott Brown took the high road which is more than I can say about his adversary. Yes-I do feel he is spending money foolishly. Spending money in a recession to stimulate the economy is one thing, increasing the size of government while ignoring the private sector in a recession is foolish.

Government salaries soar in bad times

Examiner Editorial

December 14, 2009 Something President Obama said during his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech in Oslo about making foreign policy is equally applicable at home, namely, that the world must be dealt with as it is, not as we might wish it to be. This was highlighted by a USA Today investigative report published last week that found "federal workers are enjoying an extraordinary boom time -- in pay and hiring -- during a recession that has cost 7.3 million jobs in the private sector." In other words, bad times for the rest of us are good times for the federal establishment.

This recession has been such a boom time for the tax-supported bureaucracy that "federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months -- and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted." USA Today was especially struck by the fact that there was only one career federal worker making an annual salary of $170,000 or more at the U.S. Department of Transportation when the current recession began. Today, 18 months later, there are more than 1,600 career employees making that much at Transportation. We can only hope that none of those additional 1,600-plus high-paid workers was responsible for the $2 billion Cash for Clunkers debacle run by the Transportation Department.

Hot Air's Ed Morrissey points out something else that has occurred as the ranks of six-digit career government workers in Washington surged: "It's not as if they've been asked to do more with less, either. In the first six months of the year, the federal government was adding 10,000 jobs per month, and over the recession had grown the ranks of bureaucrats by 9.8 percent. The private sector, during that same period, shed 7.3 million jobs."

Hard times for folks outside of the federal establishment are also good times for Washington politicians with their never-ending thirst for finding new ways of grabbing tax dollars to benefit themselves, members of their families, present or former staff members, friends, or campaign donors. The $448 billion appropriations bill approved last week by the House contained more than 5,000 earmarks, many of which will ultimately benefit the favored few rather than the suffering many. It's helpful to keep these realities about Washington bureaucrats and politicians in mind the next time one of them steps forward and proposes solving another crisis with billions more tax dollars.

[Bell Bottom]

There are so many lies told by the right, I thought (probably foolishly) that you would like to know what they are. There are SO MANY to try and dispel but should you have any real interest in understanding the world in which we now live, please take some time to gain perspective.

I found this review of a book on Amazon to be frame the issue quite well.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Lies-Right-Wing-Propaganda-Distorts/dp/0312315600

"Conservative talk show hosts and newspaper columnists have made an industry out of incessantly deriding the American left, citing liberals for everything from moral decay to bad economic policy to a soft approach on terrorism. Often these accusations are bound in book form and sell quite well. Only one problem, according to Salon.com and New York Observer writer Joe Conason: the charges they're leveling just aren't true."

Top 30 with great links to examples, and refutations:

http://www.eyesonobama.com/blog/content/id_55096/title_Top-30-Stupidest-Attacks-on-Obama/

Some good stuff on the health care debate

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/2009/07/deconstructing-the-right-wing-lies-health-bill.html

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/08/maddow_on_right_wing_lies_on_h.php

General debunking depository:

http://digg.com/politics/Right_Wing_Lies_Debunking_Depository

Great article on why we owe it to ourselves and the future of this nation to be informed:

http://themoderatevoice.com/42859/of-right-wing-lies-and-the-obligation-to-be-informed/

The daily debunker of all lies right-wing:

http://www.unknownnews.org/debunk.html

Great list of really gross lies delivered by Fox, Limbaugh, Levin, etc. This one deserves some close reviewing as it has examples that are so outlandish that it boarders on defamation:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/275768

A great summary of all dreck uttered by the right:

So let’s add this up. Obama, who isn’t a citizen of the United States, wants the country to be Communist, then will align himself with Iranian terrorists and consequently impose Sharia law. He wants the military to be defeated, to destroy the economy, and is interested in virtually annihilating Caucasians in order to impose the will of blacks and homosexuals on U.S. society to the extent he would likely imprison, torture, and murder them in great numbers, just like Adolph Hitler. If anyone seeks to destroy the country, Obama will likely step aside and let it happen or work towards making it happen. Besides that he advocates killing babies and will do everything he can to make that possible.

[Bell Bottom]

Okay- you cite 2 conservatives out of 109 years of Nobel prizes. And since you are so big on FACTS. Where is the fact that Obama has inspired the world? I should think the Nobel and the reasons stated for giving it are perfect examples of that

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html

but since you ask, I work with people throughout the world and do travel to Europe and Asia. My colleagues throughout the world felt that it was a bit early but certainly agree with the fact that he has inspired much more hope, especially considering how sour the world was over Bush (and yes, I heard from many overseas about that).


That is opinion-not fact. If you are citing European liberals I'm sure they are more happy with Obama. You say under Bush the world saw nothing but bad-once again this is conjecture certainly advanced by the liberal media fanning the anti Bush flames. The protests in Europe against Reagan in the 80's were far worse than any against Bush. As Teddy Roosevelt once said "The world will never love us. They respect us - they might even grow to fear us. But they will never love us"Don't get out of the country much, do you?


As for the Islamic nations I would say it is safe to say that based on their extreme religious views the liberals in this country are a greater threat to their beliefs. I wonder how they feel about abortion, gay rights and all the sex in movies and television coming out of liberal Hollywood. They hate our whole way of life and it doesn't matter who is in charge. How has the hope and change man affected the world so far? I haven't seen any evidence of anything. I'll tell you one thing though I am one American who is tired of him blaming us for everything.The most recent tape released by Obama doesn't cite any of this. It talks quite specifically about how "America will never dream of security unless we will have it in reality in Palestine."

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/25/bin-laden-tape-no-need-for-alarm-us-says/


P.S. Sorry I don't have any links speaking for me all the time. You attempt to belittle me and state I don't have any facts. Anybody can google the internet and come up with additional information-doesn't mean it is always fact. There are just as many left leaning kook sites as those on the right. And there are always differing points of view, articles etc on economics, global warming etc. And frankly many news organizations are highly suspect with their own agendas as well.I have a post just on the lies of the right. These are from diverse sources and of course some is opinion but much is easily verified fact.


frankly many news organizations are highly suspect with their own agendas as well.The right states that often. I've heard it stated that "FOX is the only news organization that isn't in the bag for Obama".

I listen mainly to NPR which is as close to unbiased as your going to get.

FOX is nothing more than the propaganda arm of the Republican party. As someone so aptly put it:

"Fox never let any pesky facts get in the way of a juicy story!"

Anyway, I will hold in contempt, any individual who mindlessly follows the herd and repeats all the same dreck as if it were gospel. I take a centrist point of view and fully agree with a conservative approach to fiscal policy. I still haven't seen a conservative fiscal policy out of the Republicans from Ronnie onward. Above and beyond everything, I believe in government for the people and by the people. The "right" has not demonstrated this value in how opposed they've been to Obama. Lies to support a political point of view are more dangerous to the Constitution than any other threat this country has seen to date.

[LordBlackAdder]

...So let’s add this up. Obama, who isn’t a citizen of the United States, wants the country to be Communist, then will align himself with Iranian terrorists and consequently impose Sharia law. He wants the military to be defeated, to destroy the economy, and is interested in virtually annihilating Caucasians in order to impose the will of blacks and homosexuals on U.S. society to the extent he would likely imprison, torture, and murder them in great numbers, just like Adolph Hitler. If anyone seeks to destroy the country, Obama will likely step aside and let it happen or work towards making it happen. Besides that he advocates killing babies and will do everything he can to make that possible.

Obama and Hitler may share some similarities but they also have some major differences:

Favourings merit over Equality.

Favouring competition over cooperation.

Wanting to have a strong military.

Takes realism over idealism.

Takes pride in his country

Favours nationalism over internationalism.

Is against all inclusiveness.

Backs common sense over theory.

Takes pragmatism over principle.

Acknowledgesthat the government and the Church needs to have a relationship.

These are all traits that Hitler had that Obama has shown no evidence of having.

and of course there is always the fact that Hitler brought the Olympics to Berlin while Obama spared Chicago from having them forced upon people who live there and did not really want them (although he did not intend on doing that)

[Bell Bottom]

Great satire! Hard to take it any other way, especially given all your other posts. Thanks and keep up the good work. Truly a funny, funny guy!


Obama and Hitler may share some similarities but they also have some major differences:

Favourings merit over Equality.

Favouring competition over cooperation.

Wanting to have a strong military.

Takes realism over idealism.

Takes pride in his country

Favours nationalism over internationalism.

Is against all inclusiveness.

Backs common sense over theory.

Takes pragmatism over principle.

Acknowledgesthat the government and the Church needs to have a relationship.

These are all traits that Hitler had that Obama has shown no evidence of having.

and of course there is always the fact that Hitler brought the Olympics to Berlin while Obama spared Chicago from having them forced upon people who live there and did not really want them (although he did not intend on doing that)

[Bbrenham]

For speaking against The Supreme Court ruling on campaign financing.Joe, while I agree with your comments regarding shouting instead of discussing, a true conservative would never endorse McLaim. The McLaim bill was unconstitutional and was rightly over turned. I don't disagree with the concept but that law made it virtually impossible for anyone that was not rich to run for public office.

[Bbrenham]

Anyway, I will hold in contempt, any individual who mindlessly follows the herd and repeats all the same dreck as if it were gospel. I take a centrist point of view and fully agree with a conservative approach to fiscal policy. I still haven't seen a conservative fiscal policy out of the Republicans from Ronnie onward. Above and beyond everything, I believe in government for the people and by the people. The "right" has not demonstrated this value in how opposed they've been to Obama. Lies to support a political point of view are more dangerous to the Constitution than any other threat this country has seen to date.My my you must be getting light headed on your high horse.

Lets count the lies.

1. Taxes won't go up for folks making under $250K. He won't extend Bush Tax cuts.

2. CSPAN will televise the healthcare meetings. Don't blame Nancy.

3. I am a christian. Yeah, right.

4. Born in Hawaii. Prove it, prove it, prove it.

5. He was not friends with William Ayers. Would you let an enemy write your auto-biography.

6. I will end pork barrell spending. Can't stop laughing can ya?

7. There is no pork in the stimulus package. Liar liar liar.

8. No provision in HC Bill for illegals or abortions. Big friggin liar, Joe W. Was right

Since my last comments were labeled "POS" I hope this being written in first grade english helped. Clear enough for ya now JA.

[Bell Bottom]

This message brought to you by the caring people at the Ministry of Truth in conjunction with the Ministry of Love (OrdAckBladder) and the Ministry of Truth (AgentIQ61). Advocating for a new government filled with people you can trust.


My my you must be getting light headed on your high horse.

Lets count the lies.

1. Taxes won't go up for folks making under $250K. He won't extend Bush Tax cuts.

2. CSPAN will televise the healthcare meetings. Don't blame Nancy.

3. I am a christian. Yeah, right.

4. Born in Hawaii. Prove it, prove it, prove it.

5. He was not friends with William Ayers. Would you let an enemy write your auto-biography.

6. I will end pork barrell spending. Can't stop laughing can ya?

7. There is no pork in the stimulus package. Liar liar liar.

8. No provision in HC Bill for illegals or abortions. Big friggin liar, Joe W. Was right

Since my last comments were labeled "POS" I hope this being written in first grade english helped. Clear enough for ya now JA.

[Bbrenham]

This message brought to you by the caring people at the Ministry of Truth in conjunction with the Ministry of Love (OrdAckBladder) and the Ministry of Truth (AgentIQ61). Advocating for a new government filled with people you can trust.Very good sir, that is rich.

I did forget one from somebody else, "no new taxes". Gone the next year.

What is Bama's chances? What a failure. What a lying sack of crap.

Yes, they all lie. Some just lie more than others.

[LordBlackAdder]

Bell Bottom we think you need to get better at the typing ritual. I have never been with the Ministry of Love, although at one point I did consider a carreer with the Ministry of Silly Walks.

I know this is too late for the speech last night, so save one and use it next time the One makes one of his speeches. The concept is simple it is like Bingo, if you play the game you get others to have a similar card with the terms in a different placement. When the One utters a word or phrase you Tick it off and if you get five in a row, you win and get to take a drink. The middle spot which is free in traditional Bingo is sort of FREE in this version, you get it whenever the One says "I" or :"me" and the second and subsequent times that he says "I" or "me" you get to take a drink. You win if you are drunk enough at the end of the speech that you start to believe what the One is saying.

[Bell Bottom]

Talk about an idiot. Secretly recording someone while undercover (or was he really living out a fantasy) is one thing but trying to bug a Senator's phone is quite another.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35099552/ns/politics-more_politics/

[Bell Bottom]

Like there was a need to go back to the moon when he had already driven the debt up to the pre-Clinton era and then some. As it stands, the space station isn't necessarily worth it either. Not much science being accomplished but lots of money is certainly being spent.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35131431/ns/technology_and_science-space/

[Bell Bottom]

Bell Bottom we think you need to get better at the typing ritual. I have never been with the Ministry of Love, although at one point I did consider a carreer with the Ministry of Silly Walks.I thought you were the head?!!?? Hmm. How could I have been mistaken?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four


I know this is too late for the speech last night, so save one and use it next time the One makes one of his speeches. The concept is simple it is like Bingo, if you play the game you get others to have a similar card with the terms in a different placement. When the One utters a word or phrase you Tick it off and if you get five in a row, you win and get to take a drink. The middle spot which is free in traditional Bingo is sort of FREE in this version, you get it whenever the One says "I" or :"me" and the second and subsequent times that he says "I" or "me" you get to take a drink. You win if you are drunk enough at the end of the speech that you start to believe what the One is saying.Ah, sort of like the old Drink Boat. Here are a few alternatives that would have gotten your eyeballs floating within 15 minutes.

Drink Painlin:
You Betcha = a sip (too common for anything more)
Get er done = at least a drink
Joe Six Pack = a chug
in answer to what newspapers she reads - All of them = chug, baby, chug!

Drink Bush:
nucelar - sip
calling a reporter an asshole (over a live mic) = drink
Uttering a complete, intelligible sentence = a serious chug

Drink Cheney:
"Conservation [isn't] a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy." - sip
agreeing with Bush on calling a reporter an asshole (over a live mic) = drink
swearing in congress = chug

Oh the possibilities are endless.

But I suppose you'll never be inspired by our current president. Maybe a good KKK rally or a book burning would cheer you up! :p

[Bell Bottom]

But I suppose you'll never be inspired by our current president. Maybe a good KKK rally or a book burning would cheer you up! :pI know, not very nice of me. In the words of Bluto (John Belushi in Animal house) when he smashed the guitar - "Uh, sorry". :o)

[Bbrenham]

Talk about an idiot. Secretly recording someone while undercover (or was he really living out a fantasy) is one thing but trying to bug a Senator's phone is quite another.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35099552/ns/politics-more_politics/Well that would be very bad if it were true. And if they were trying to install wire taps or tamper with the phone system then they deserve a long jail sentence. Funny, how for weeks her phone system was "very busy". You would think they would have had that issue addressed when folks started complaining.

But here is what I read on a less liberal site. http://biggovernment.com/

Statement from O'Keefe.

The government has now confirmed what has always been clear: No one tried to wiretap or bug Senator Landrieu's office. Nor did we try to cut or shut down her phone lines. Reports to this effect over the past 48 hours are inaccurate and false.

As an investigative journalist, my goal is to expose corruption and lack of concern for citizens by government and other institutions, as I did last year when our investigations revealed the massive corruption and fraud perpetrated by ACORN. For decades, investigative journalists have used a variety of tactics to try to dig out and reveal the truth.

I learned from a number of sources that many of Senator Landrieu's constituents were having trouble getting through to her office to tell her that they didn't want her taking millions of federal dollars in exchange for her vote on the healthcare bill. When asked about this, Senator Landrieu's explanation was that, "Our lines have been jammed for weeks. " I decided to investigate why a representative of the people would be out of touch with her constituents for "weeks" because her phones were broken. In investigating this matter, we decided to visit Senator Landrieu's district office – the people's office – to ask the staff if their phones were working.

[Bbrenham]

Like there was a need to go back to the moon when he had already driven the debt up to the pre-Clinton era and then some. As it stands, the space station isn't necessarily worth it either. Not much science being accomplished but lots of money is certainly being spent.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35131431/ns/technology_and_science-space/I agree 100% - NASA is good for breaking technology but there is no need to the moon or mars. Unless they take Joe Biden and leave him there.

[Bell Bottom]

Doesn't address the "listening device". The laws are quite clear on wiretapping, eavesdropping, etc. And doing that to a federal elected official only elevates that crime. In addition, there's false impersonation, etc.

We'll C.

By the way, video-taping someone without permission is also illegal so his "unbiased investigation" into ACORN without any warrant, approval from those taped, etc. Is illegal.


Well that would be very bad if it were true. And if they were trying to install wire taps or tamper with the phone system then they deserve a long jail sentence. Funny, how for weeks her phone system was "very busy". You would think they would have had that issue addressed when folks started complaining.

But here is what I read on a less liberal site. http://biggovernment.com/

Statement from O'Keefe.

The government has now confirmed what has always been clear: No one tried to wiretap or bug Senator Landrieu's office. Nor did we try to cut or shut down her phone lines. Reports to this effect over the past 48 hours are inaccurate and false.

As an investigative journalist, my goal is to expose corruption and lack of concern for citizens by government and other institutions, as I did last year when our investigations revealed the massive corruption and fraud perpetrated by ACORN. For decades, investigative journalists have used a variety of tactics to try to dig out and reveal the truth.

I learned from a number of sources that many of Senator Landrieu's constituents were having trouble getting through to her office to tell her that they didn't want her taking millions of federal dollars in exchange for her vote on the healthcare bill. When asked about this, Senator Landrieu's explanation was that, "Our lines have been jammed for weeks. " I decided to investigate why a representative of the people would be out of touch with her constituents for "weeks" because her phones were broken. In investigating this matter, we decided to visit Senator Landrieu's district office – the people's office – to ask the staff if their phones were working.

[Bell Bottom]

By the way, biggovernment.com is the one sponsoring this ding dong.

Not exactly an unbiased source of opinion.


But here is what I read on a less liberal site. http://biggovernment.com/

[Bbrenham]

Doesn't address the "listening device". The laws are quite clear on wiretapping, eavesdropping, etc. And doing that to a federal elected official only elevates that crime. In addition, there's false impersonation, etc.

We'll C.

By the way, video-taping someone without permission is also illegal so his "unbiased investigation" into ACORN without any warrant, approval from those taped, etc. Is illegal.I guess we all know you are no lawyer.

First off, not sure if the "elected official" was even there. Most of these congressmen's local offices are in regular private office buildings and are never in state or federal facilities.

Oh, by the way, once your an elected official, you have waived your right to privacy. These guys get recorded all the time doing "stuff". I have not heard of any lawsuits from all these cell phone vids that are out.

Get real man!

These laws vary from state to state. The FEDs get involved when you break FCC laws. Wiretapping and eavesdropping laws are covered there. Trust me tho. If you get caught wiretapping your ex-girfriends house. The FBI and US Marshalls office won't be coming to get you, the local PD will and local laws and penalties will be applied.

The local the's offices are investigating O'KLeefe's Acorn visits but only in eastern block states like Maryland.

Impersonation is only a crime for certain things, like cops and doctors. If it is used to commit fraud or other crimes then the crime is illegal but the impersonating is evidence.

Videotaping somebody without thier permission, BTW, please be specific, you said; "video taping someone without permission"? From whom do you seek permission? Very ambiguous.

Candid Camera was an illegal program!

Bars, restaruants, stores, office buildings, employers, red light cameras. I don't remember providing permission to any of these places to film me with hidden cameras. The fact is it is not illegal at all. It is illegal, however, to make the video public without consent or if no consent blur the identity. Come on man! What would the Papparatzi do if this were true. What would Rodney King have done!

Warrants! Since when does a media outlet need a warrant? Police get warrants not the press.

You are confused with audio taping and monitoring. All those cameras I mentioned have no audio. In most states, Connecticut being one of them, you have to have a sticker on each entrance that states audio monitoring is in affect. This is true for public places, anyway. Also, incoming calls to your residence or business, you don't have to say squat about being recorded in most cases. It is what you do with the recording that makes it illegal. In all cases it is illegal to be a 3rd party recording a private conversation with out consent of both parties.

Do you think Eyewitness news tells the people they investigate they are being recorded. I have seen them do it to the sheriff, dpw workers, principles, building inspectors. Some of these folks are "govt' officials".

The govt will have to prove the intent to commit a crime of wiretapping. Intent is not an easy thing to prove. I don't think they had "bugs" they simplly had a recording device that was being transmitted to a person waiting in the car. He will walk away cause they got nothing.

Trust me. All these cell phone companies that are providing these camera phones would be accessories to the crimes. They would never put themselves in that position, the crime is how the video/audio is used. Not the making of the video.

None of this applies to area 51, is that where you are from BB?

Anyway, O'Keefe still has to learn what's in and out of bounds. Even in the pursuit of a juicy story. But give him this much: he was looking in the right place.

That last sentence was from coopscorner, I could not have said it better.

[Bbrenham]

By the way, biggovernment.comis the one sponsoring this ding dong.

Not exactly an unbiased source of opinion. Well that is what you get for sourcing MSNBC.

Ya know the ones that showed the BLACK guy with an assault rifle in such a way that you could not tell it was a BLACK guy. MSNBC then goes on and claims it is was a WHITE racist. Oh now they are credible.

CNN. Moving the same body through out Palestine to make it look like death and destruction were everywhere when actually the Isrealis hit them with very surgical strikes.

Use them as a source and you are fair game to have every right winged source thrown back at you.

BTW, it was not "story" it was O'Keefe's unedited statement. The leftwing sites would have never left it intact. Pure and simple I don't believe the main stream media can be trusted, Fox included.

[Bell Bottom]

BTW, it was not "story" it was O'Keefe's unedited statement. The leftwing sites would have never left it intact. Pure and simple I don't believe the main stream media can be trusted, Fox included.It's still O'Keefe using the exact forum which pays him to outline his own position on the "stunt". Unbiases as a KKK meeting.

MSNBC, is a liberal site but less likely to take only the "left's" stance. I was watching Fox this morning and they were talking about the missile defense shield and didn't bother talking to a current administration official. Instead, they pulled in a Bush official and their statement was "a program initiated under Bush" but they completely left out the significant changes or even the huge diplomacy effort with Russia which Bush completely ignored.

The blogs and right wing news orgs are certainly not less biased than conventional news. If you want the most reasoned and honest news, NPR is the most reliable. I contribute to NPR.

Do you?

[Bell Bottom]

Candid Camera was an illegal program!Not sure you're aware (of anything) so for your information, on Candid Camera, they ALWAYS got wavers (aka permission) after the fact so they could play the recordings on the air.


Bars, restaruants, stores, office buildings, employers, red light cameras. I don't remember providing permission to any of these places to film me with hidden cameras. The fact is it is not illegal at all. It is illegal, however, to make the video public without consent or if no consent blur the identity. Come on man! What would the Papparatzi do if this were true. What would Rodney King have done!

Warrants! Since when does a media outlet need a warrant? Police get warrants not the press.

You are confused with audio taping and monitoring. All those cameras I mentioned have no audio. In most states, Connecticut being one of them, you have to have a sticker on each entrance that states audio monitoring is in affect. This is true for public places, anyway. Also, incoming calls to your residence or business, you don't have to say squat about being recorded in most cases. It is what you do with the recording that makes it illegal. In all cases it is illegal to be a 3rd party recording a private conversation with out consent of both parties.

Do you think Eyewitness news tells the people they investigate they are being recorded. I have seen them do it to the sheriff, dpw workers, principles, building inspectors. Some of these folks are "govt' officials".


The govt will have to prove the intent to commit a crime of wiretapping. Intent is not an easy thing to prove. I don't think they had "bugs" they simplly had a recording device that was being transmitted to a person waiting in the car. He will walk away cause they got nothing.

When a person talks to the press, they are obviously being video taped. The laws are much more defined for audio versus video (with video laws mostly concerned with personal privacy). Monitoring does not get public playback as that is the standard used when determining legal vs unlawful use. As for impersonation, he claimed to be from the phone company. That's still misrepresentation (and yes, misrepresenting yourself as a telephone employee is covered under the law) with criminal intent and he was in a public official's office (regardless of whether or not that official was there at the time).

Here is a guilty plea on misrepresentation and yes, there are various elements to the guilty plea, one of them is directly related to impersonation of a telecommunications employee:

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/weigmanPlea.pdf


Trust me. All these cell phone companies that are providing these camera phones would be accessories to the crimes. They would never put themselves in that position, the crime is how the video/audio is used. Not the making of the video.

Not sure I would trust you on the accessory part of cell phone manufacturers/providers (oh lawyerly one), just as with guns, it's not the manufacture or possession which is illegal but the inappropriate use. Very different. I don't recall any manufacturer or dealer going to jail for following gun laws. Cellphones record people, not providers/manufacturers.


None of this applies to area 51, is that where you are from BB?I past jobs, I've had security clearance to facilities you would never get into. I currently have more direct knowledge of and access to security issues around the Internet. I won't ask you to trust me on that but I have dispelled misinformation in forum before concerning internet security and issues. Take that for whatever worth you want.


Anyway, O'Keefe still has to learn what's in and out of bounds. Even in the pursuit of a juicy story. But give him this much: he was looking in the right place.

That last sentence was from coopscorner, I could not have said it better.

It's still a bunch of right wing nuts around the country flooding a public official's office with calls. Probably had a bunch of tea-baggers program their speed-dialers and calling non-stop. That's not doing the public any good. Anyone interested in having the country get back to work should call out their representatives (left, right, center) and tell them to stop roadblocking.

Obama recently tried to form a bipartisan commission which was shot down by the Republicans. You want as unbiased a story as is possible on what's wrong at present, see below:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123164812

[Bbrenham]

Not sure you're aware (of anything) so for your information, on Candid Camera, they ALWAYS got wavers (aka permission) after the fact so they could play the recordings on the air.

When a person talks to the press, they are obviously being video taped. The laws are much more defined for audio versus video (with video laws mostly concerned with personal privacy). Monitoring does not get public playback as that is the standard used when determining legal vs unlawful use. As for impersonation, he claimed to be from the phone company. That's still misrepresentation (and yes, misrepresenting yourself as a telephone employee is covered under the law) with criminal intent and he was in a public official's office (regardless of whether or not that official was there at the time).

Here is a guilty plea on misrepresentation and yes, there are various elements to the guilty plea, one of them is directly related to impersonation of a telecommunications employee:

http://www.Justice. Gov/criminal/cybercrime/weigmanPlea. Pdf

Not sure I would trust you on the accessory part of cell phone manufacturers/providers (oh lawyerly one), just as with guns, it's not the manufacture or possession which is illegal but the inappropriate use. Very different. I don't recall any manufacturer or dealer going to jail for following gun laws. Cellphones record people, not providers/manufacturers.

I past jobs, I've had security clearance to facilities you would never get into. I currently have more direct knowledge of and access to security issues around the Internet. I won't ask you to trust me on that but I have dispelled misinformation in forum before concerning internet security and issues. Take that for whatever worth you want.

It's still a bunch of right wing nuts around the country flooding a public official's office with calls. Probably had a bunch of tea-baggers program their speed-dialers and calling non-stop. That's not doing the public any good. Anyone interested in having the country get back to work should call out their representatives (left, right, center) and tell them to stop roadblocking.

Obama recently tried to form a bipartisan commission which was shot down by the Republicans. You want as unbiased a story as is possible on what's wrong at present, see below:

http://www.Npr.org/templates/story/story.php? StoryId=123164812Those guys from Boston hacked in to phone company records and harrassed an investigator form the phone company that caught them. They also, spoofed calls from him in an effort to get him fired. This was a completely different thing. These guys did not conspire, they did it.

Surveilance video is often diplayed on TV. I see it on the news, I see it on Spike and Real TV. I doubt the criminal robbing the convenience store give thier blessing to show the tapes. The fact is they are recorded on private property and the owner of the property own the exclusive distribution rights. There is all kind of legal exposure here but not when used to show illegal behavior or when they block out a companies name on a tee-shirt or a bystanders face.

Of course if they "know" they are talking to the press they "know" they maybe recorded, quoted and shown on video later. We both know I am talking about investigative journalism and we both know they use hidden cameras and microphones. Don't play that liberal truth twisting here.

Also notice that I have not called anyone names. Something you just can't seem to avoid. It is an indication of a desparate liberal.

Being a security guard in places that need clearance is wonderful. I hope it was fun for you. I am not going to brag about my credentials, 20 years doing the same thing at the same company, loving every minute of it is all I will say.

Obama consistentley holds closed door meeting even to CSPAN. They don't even report, they just play the video. That is why we are in this insane discussion! It was the backroom deals that set a spark under this guys butt and he set about probably the worst possible way of trying to embarrass the "govt official".

[Bell Bottom]

You were a security guard? Too funny. I was doing risk assessment for the power industry.

As for the rest, well mister security guard lawyer, we'll see how it all turns out. I'm sure your extensive knowledge of the law will prove me wrong.

It's funny how the right calls anything not as far flung in their beliefs as "liberal".

As for the names, I have often noted that anyone who persists in espousing, perpetuating or generally following the lies, misrepresentations, etc. of the hive mind, deserves nothing but condemnation. Keep saying global warning doesn't exist, calling the center socialists, nazis, fascists, etc. deserves nothing but abuse.


Those guys from Boston hacked in to phone company records and harrassed an investigator form the phone company that caught them. They also, spoofed calls from him in an effort to get him fired. This was a completely different thing. These guys did not conspire, they did it.

Surveilance video is often diplayed on TV. I see it on the news, I see it on Spike and Real TV. I doubt the criminal robbing the convenience store give thier blessing to show the tapes. The fact is they are recorded on private property and the owner of the property own the exclusive distribution rights. There is all kind of legal exposure here but not when used to show illegal behavior or when they block out a companies name on a tee-shirt or a bystanders face.

Of course if they "know" they are talking to the press they "know" they maybe recorded, quoted and shown on video later. We both know I am talking about investigative journalism and we both know they use hidden cameras and microphones. Don't play that liberal truth twisting here.

Also notice that I have not called anyone names. Something you just can't seem to avoid. It is an indication of a desparate liberal.

Being a security guard in places that need clearance is wonderful. I hope it was fun for you. I am not going to brag about my credentials, 20 years doing the same thing at the same company, loving every minute of it is all I will say.

Obama consistentley holds closed door meeting even to CSPAN. They don't even report, they just play the video. That is why we are in this insane discussion! It was the backroom deals that set a spark under this guys butt and he set about probably the worst possible way of trying to embarrass the "govt official".

[Bbrenham]

So I just heard, O'Keefe was held for more than 28 hours with out access to an attorney while federal prosecuters office leaks all kinds of details to the press. All this while the terrorist that tried to blowup a plane has access to an attorney with in hours of his detention. This is a perfect example how the federal government is trying to squelch anything that comes from the right.

O'Keefe will never get a fair trial with or without the leaks.

[Bell Bottom]

On which right wing nut board?


So I just heard, O'Keefe was held for more than 28 hours with out access to an attorney while federal prosecuters office leaks all kinds of details to the press. All this while the terrorist that tried to blowup a plane has access to an attorney with in hours of his detention. This is a perfect example how the federal government is trying to squelch anything that comes from the right.

O'Keefe will never get a fair trial with or without the leaks.

[Bbrenham]

You were a security guard? Too funny. I was doing risk assessment for the power industry.

As for the rest, well mister security guard lawyer, we'll see how it all turns out. I'm sure your extensive knowledge of the law will prove me wrong.

It's funny how the right calls anything not as far flung in their beliefs as "liberal".

As for the names, I have often noted that anyone who persists in espousing, perpetuating or generally following the lies, misrepresentations, etc. of the hive mind, deserves nothing but condemnation. Keep saying global warning doesn't exist, calling the center socialists, nazis, fascists, etc. deserves nothing but abuse.Well I never said I was the security guard.

I don't have extensive knowledge of the law, just privacy and corporate compliance.

I did note that you did not respond to the points but instead chose to defend your right to be little others.

That is because I am right and you know it.

Just like I think the left is full of nutbags the right is not short of them either.

I just happen to be right of center.

So our Muslim president that claims to be a christian born in the USA hangs out with known socialists and has Mao fans in his cabinet is not a left wing nutjob. Get it straight, he wants Pookie to get some pie but don't want pookie to pay for it. Redistribution of wealth, his prime objective, is a socialist principal. He is using HC reform and carbon tax in attempt tp put the first layers down.

He is evil. He is a liar. Worst of all, he is a flaming liberal just like you.

Global warming is a hoax, that is all just about proved now. Oh sorry. Some right winger hacked into their email accounts. What a shame the shamb was exposed.

Now if you excuse me I have to turn on the air and heat at the same time because I want the biggest carbon footprint but don't like large SUVs.

[Bbrenham]

So after all this crap they put us through we now have found out the same group that lied about the Himulaya ice thickness have declared their sources for other "facts" have come from a hiking organization and magazines.

March 16th, 2007 by Warwick Hughes

In his latest paper, CO2: The Greatest Scientific Scandal of Our Time

Dr Zbigniew Jaworowski highlights these four basic statements in the "Summary for Policymakers":

1. Carbon dioxide, the most important anthropogenic emissions increased markedly as a result of human activities, and its atmospheric concentration of 379 ppmv (parts by volume) in 2005 by far exceeded the natural range of 180 to 300 ppmv over the last 650,000 years.

2. Since 1750, human activities warmed the climate.

3. The warmth of the last half-century is unusual, is the highest in at least the past 1, 300 years, and is "very likely" caused by increases in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations;

4. Predictions are made that anthropogenic warming will continue for centuries, and between 2090 and 2099 the global average surface temperature will increase 1. 1°C to 6. 4°C.

Various scare stories of global catastrophes are prophesied to

Occur if man-made emissions are not curbed by drastic political decisions. The obvious beneficial effects of warming for man and all the biosphere are downplayed.

The arguements against the four "facts" are posted below

1. A technician working on ice cores confirmed that no attempt is made to pressurize cores to keep clathrates intact before cutting samples to 'clear ice'. How these samples can then be a true record of atmosphericic CO2 is beyond me, can anyone enlighten me?

2. There has been no accurate method to date to determine the earths average temperature. In fact, some scientist think the angle of the earth on its axis changed over time further complicating any calculations based on geology.

3. Simply not provable. Even if it were true, the best that even the pro-warming, fat pocketed scientists can say is "very likely". Perhaps the heavy breathing from counting all the money they get to lean towards the hoax.

4. They cannot predict weather more than 10 days out. How accurate would they be for 80 years out?

They can't even predict hurricanes which are based on the core laws of climatology. IT IS A LIE

This is a way to re-distribute wealth to poor countries via the failed deal in Copenhagen.

[Bell Bottom]

Not the best source of information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Jaworowski

"Jaworowski has also written that the movement to remove lead from gasoline was based on a "stupid and fraudulent myth," and that lead levels in the human bloodstream are not significantly affected by the use of leaded gasoline."

He must have ingested a bit of lead during his youth to make that statement. I wonder what he thinks about the fact that glaciers around the world are fast disappearing.


So after all this crap they put us through we now have found out the same group that lied about the Himulaya ice thickness have declared their sources for other "facts" have come from a hiking organization and magazines.

March 16th, 2007 by Warwick Hughes

In his latest paper, CO2: The Greatest Scientific Scandal of Our Time

Dr Zbigniew Jaworowski highlights these four basic statements in the "Summary for Policymakers":

1. Carbon dioxide, the most important anthropogenic emissions increased markedly as a result of human activities, and its atmospheric concentration of 379 ppmv (parts by volume) in 2005 by far exceeded the natural range of 180 to 300 ppmv over the last 650,000 years.

2. Since 1750, human activities warmed the climate.

3. The warmth of the last half-century is unusual, is the highest in at least the past 1, 300 years, and is "very likely" caused by increases in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations;

4. Predictions are made that anthropogenic warming will continue for centuries, and between 2090 and 2099 the global average surface temperature will increase 1. 1°C to 6. 4°C.

Various scare stories of global catastrophes are prophesied to

Occur if man-made emissions are not curbed by drastic political decisions. The obvious beneficial effects of warming for man and all the biosphere are downplayed.

The arguements against the four "facts" are posted below

1. A technician working on ice cores confirmed that no attempt is made to pressurize cores to keep clathrates intact before cutting samples to 'clear ice'. How these samples can then be a true record of atmosphericic CO2 is beyond me, can anyone enlighten me?

2. There has been no accurate method to date to determine the earths average temperature. In fact, some scientist think the angle of the earth on its axis changed over time further complicating any calculations based on geology.

3. Simply not provable. Even if it were true, the best that even the pro-warming, fat pocketed scientists can say is "very likely". Perhaps the heavy breathing from counting all the money they get to lean towards the hoax.

4. They cannot predict weather more than 10 days out. How accurate would they be for 80 years out?

They can't even predict hurricanes which are based on the core laws of climatology. IT IS A LIE

This is a way to re-distribute wealth to poor countries via the failed deal in Copenhagen.

[Bell Bottom]

OK Homer. You are so smart -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhrfhjLd9e4

A perfect example of the hive mind.

Do you eat grass? You certainly are part of the herd.


Well I never said I was the security guard.

I don't have extensive knowledge of the law, just privacy and corporate compliance.

I did note that you did not respond to the points but instead chose to defend your right to be little others.

That is because I am right and you know it.

Just like I think the left is full of nutbags the right is not short of them either.

I just happen to be right of center.

So our Muslim president that claims to be a christian born in the USA hangs out with known socialists and has Mao fans in his cabinet is not a left wing nutjob. Get it straight, he wants Pookie to get some pie but don't want pookie to pay for it. Redistribution of wealth, his prime objective, is a socialist principal. He is using HC reform and carbon tax in attempt tp put the first layers down.

He is evil. He is a liar. Worst of all, he is a flaming liberal just like you.

Global warming is a hoax, that is all just about proved now. Oh sorry. Some right winger hacked into their email accounts. What a shame the shamb was exposed.

Now if you excuse me I have to turn on the air and heat at the same time because I want the biggest carbon footprint but don't like large SUVs.

[LordBlackAdder]

If you get an email titled "Nude photo of Nancy Pelosi"
Don't open it !!!
It contains a nude photo of Nancy Pelosi.

[LordBlackAdder]

Then why is the Premier (their version of governor) of the Canadian province of Newfoundland coming to the US for a heart surgery? Just saw this on the news, some in Canada are upset saying it sends the wrong message about their system.

[LordBlackAdder]

I agree 100% - NASA is good for breaking technology but there is no need to the moon or mars. Unless they take Joe Biden and leave him there.

Why would we want to do that and provoke the space aliens into attacking us for an obviously hostile act? They have found the perfect way of taking over without violence by infiltrating the highest levels of our government as proven by this before the operation picture of BO.

[Kcbigpapa]

If you get an email titled "Nude photo of Nancy Pelosi"
Don't open it !!!
It contains a nude photo of Nancy Pelosi.

Well we may disagree politically. This was really, really funny. Plus I noticed that with the ObamaSpock pic you're starting to post pics in the appropriate threads. Congrats on that.

[Bbrenham]

Why is it that the right wing fringe is so stuck on spewing out the same old BS? Global warming is a hoax, Obama is a Muslim, Obama was not born in the U.S., evolution is a hoax, and so on, and so on. I'm a fiscal conservative and I don't feel I have to believe everything on Fox News. The average Republican IQ has dropped considerably in the past 30 years. You're Obama rants are just that, rants. Most people will just equate you with the crazy guy on the corner proclaiming the end is near. The only people you will influence are those with a low intellect. Debate facts, not rumor. This is like a gossip column here. Very childish.

Also, besides being fiscally conservative, I am environmentally conservative. Don't be like ostriches with your heads in the sand. Global warming is a fact and an overwhelming majority of scientists believe it is cause by humans. So, pull your heads out of your collective asses and grow up.

If the Republican Party continues to head in this direction, I will vote Democrat in the next presidential election. I'd rather have intelligent people running this country even if I don't agree with their ideology than have to put up with morons. There are a few good Republicans out there but what chances do they have in a dumbed down Republican Party?

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." - Adolf HitlerI agree, it was just BB was having so much fun calling others names I finally broke down.

Global warming is directly linked to conservatives anti-agenda. If the left continue to proclaim this farce we can look forward to carbon taxes and making the US even less competative economically.

I have held my nose and voted republican since Reagan but I may join the constitution party if the "morons" don't smarten up.

[Bbrenham]

Why would we want to do that and provoke the space aliens into attacking us for an obviously hostile act? They have found the perfect way of taking over without violence by infiltrating the highest levels of our government as proven by this before the operation picture of BO.Ahhh. A new picture to throw darts at. That is even funnier than the joker pic.

[Bbrenham]

OK Homer. You are so smart -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhrfhjLd9e4

A perfect example of the hive mind.

Do you eat grass? You certainly are part of the herd.No, but I smoke it, alot of it.

Funny video tho.

Correct, maybe not the best source but sure beats what the internation climate folks are doing.

Seriously, they have recruited hikers to give them feed back on what they see in "nature" and have used those reports rather than the science.

The average temp has decreased now 2 years in row but Joe is correct, we waste too much time fighting this.

I am concerned about environment, have a brick in my toilet, recycle and drive a small car but I refuse to feel guilty about wanting to keep jobs here.

The EPA rules have caused jobs to flee from the US.

When I was living in the Marxist State of Massachusetts, we had an incinerator. It operated for a few years then the EPA tightened emissions without grandfathering equipment that was purchased under the previous standard. This kept happening, everytime the town brought it upto date, a year later the regulations would change. The town sold the landfill and the incinerator to a 3rd party, one that was rated highly by the EPA.

About 8 years later, the friggin landfill exploded and blew all the windows out of the Motel 6. It was nasty, covered everything within 100 yards of the landfill with the most foul substance. So this "highly recommended" company had not properly ventilated or maintained the existing ventillation. Thanks EPA!

We have to play on the same field, if China, Korea, Japan and Russia can produce all the polution they want. The US has the EPA placing more and more restrictions causing companies to just give up and outsource because they cannot compete. Once one company does the rest are forced to do it just to survive.

When is the last time you bought something and it said "made in Great Britian"?

[Bbrenham]

A company with 10,000 employees has an email limit of 100MB storage per person. That is 1GB total. This "regulation" causes the employee to waste valuable time cleaning their inbox. I estimate 5 hours per week, saving emails to local or network space and deleting as they go just to stay below the threshold. Lets assume the average salarly of the "white" collar employee is $50/hour and there are 5000. The WC emps would most likely be the ones with the problem.

That is $250 per yr per employee. At 5000 people. That is $1.25 million!

You could buy some badass network, servers and storage and fix the issue for good but instead regulation stands and we waste the $1.25 mil.

This is the company I work for, email must be run by the far right.

It is a federally regulated company (SEC). I work in compliance. We have as many people in the operation working on compliance as we do processing!

Regulations strangle companies. The EPA's efforts to pick up where congress left off with Cap&Trade will kill the small businessman. They want to regulate CO2 emissions and since even an elementary school would violate the current levels, many small business would have increased costs. The EPA recogized that the levels are too low compared to gases that are actually harmful so they re trying increase the limits. The E groups will fight against that.

"With Congress unable to pass cap-and-trade legislation as easily as some
Members hoped, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is moving
forward with its own set of global warming regulations....."

http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/wm2768.cfm

Yah, I know it is right wing but it is also right on!

OK, last post for awhile, the whole EPA thing really strikes a nerve with me.

[John Black]

Then why is the Premier (their version of governor) of the Canadian province of Newfoundland coming to the US for a heart surgery? Just saw this on the news, some in Canada are upset saying it sends the wrong message about their system.This shows that the US system prefers to take care of rich Canadians rather than regular Americans.

The US health care system is only the best in the world for those who can afford it.

Unfortunately fewer and fewer Americans can afford it.

Think your insurance will cover you? Did you ever read your policy? Look for terms such as 'exclusion for pre-existing conditions', 'annual coverage limit', 'lifetime coverage limit'. You will be surprised!

If you get into an accident and the ambulance takes you to a 'out of network' hospital, your screwed!

I would take my chance with the Canadian/French/Dutch/German/British system everyday. Don't have to worry about ending up in a 'out of network' hospital there!

[Bell Bottom]

So, you propose to allow users to NOT manage their email. Instead of filing it effectively and deleting extraneous crap, they can just leave it all in their inbox, sent items, etc. I receive at least 1 gig of email a year, excluding email I send. My legal people easily receive 3 gig. Let's assume that a person sends and receives 1 gig total per year. If they have no motivation to clean up, they won't. 1 gig x 10, 000 users amounts to 10 terabytes. Lets also assume that single instance storage helps reduce this to 7 TB. In 3 years, you will have consumed 21 TB of storage.

You now have to manage that storage, back it up and ensure disaster recovery and business continuity are protected.

Lets say that after 5 years, they want to upgrade to new hardware, new versions of the OS and email app. They would have to move 35 TB of data to replacement servers. In addition, there are a whole host of additional considerations in the migration such as the mail DB upgrade which will take quite some time to process.

On top of that, they have to factor in eDiscovery issues, industry regulations and requirements so how much data do they retain for backup and for how long? That could amount to a lot of extra tapes (or other backup media), management, etc. In addition, when backing up this data, do they do it just at the store level or do they also backup down to the mailbox level (aka brick level). At the store level, this could be done somewhat fast, given the right technology. Should they decide to do it at the mailbox level, that could take more time than they have in a give day.

Lastly, they have to contend with antivirus. Do they implement at the gateway, relay and/or on the box or how do they deal with the massive amounts of viruses/malware that bombard a mail system on a daily basis? There is also spam but that is an entire book of considerations.

So, sounds like a plan. You're mail servers will crap out within 2 years (probably much less).


A company with 10, 000 employees has an email limit of 100MB storage per person. That is 1GB total. This "regulation" causes the employee to waste valuable time cleaning their inbox. I estimate 5 hours per week, saving emails to local or network space and deleting as they go just to stay below the threshold. Lets assume the average salarly of the "white" collar employee is $50/hour and there are 5000. The WC emps would most likely be the ones with the problem.

That is $250 per yr per employee. At 5000 people. That is $1. 25 million!

You could buy some badass network, servers and storage and fix the issue for good but instead regulation stands and we waste the $1. 25 mil.

This is the company I work for, email must be run by the far right.

It is a federally regulated company (SEC). I work in compliance. We have as many people in the operation working on compliance as we do processing!

Regulations strangle companies. The EPA's efforts to pick up where congress left off with Cap&Trade will kill the small businessman. They want to regulate CO2 emissions and since even an elementary school would violate the current levels, many small business would have increased costs. The EPA recogized that the levels are too low compared to gases that are actually harmful so they re trying increase the limits. The E groups will fight against that.

"With Congress unable to pass cap-and-trade legislation as easily as some

Members hoped, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is moving

Forward with its own set of global warming regulations. "

http://www.Heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/wm2768. Cfm

Yah, I know it is right wing but it is also right on!

OK, last post for awhile, the whole EPA thing really strikes a nerve with me.

[Bell Bottom]

Please review OrdLackBadders post. Seems to fit.

http://usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=902751&postcount=250

As for the climate crap, here are some references to your "2 degree decrease" theory.

http://www.uscentrist.org/about/issues/environment/john_coleman/the-amazing-story-behind-the-global-warming-scam

http://www.grist.org/article/global-warming-stopped-in-1998/

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14527-climate-myths-global-warming-stopped-in-1998.html

In short, the right bases it's stance on, at best, cherry picked research, when they bother to refer to any research at all.

Of course, they can refer to the recent cold spell in the South as a perfect example against global warming. Think local, act yokel. In the Arctic, the temperatures were around 20 degrees warmer at that time. But, of course, that's different...

Have a nice swim and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.


No, but I smoke it, alot of it.

Funny video tho.

Correct, maybe not the best source but sure beats what the internation climate folks are doing.

Seriously, they have recruited hikers to give them feed back on what they see in "nature" and have used those reports rather than the science.

The average temp has decreased now 2 years in row but Joe is correct, we waste too much time fighting this.

I am concerned about environment, have a brick in my toilet, recycle and drive a small car but I refuse to feel guilty about wanting to keep jobs here.

The EPA rules have caused jobs to flee from the US.

When I was living in the Marxist State of Massachusetts, we had an incinerator. It operated for a few years then the EPA tightened emissions without grandfathering equipment that was purchased under the previous standard. This kept happening, everytime the town brought it upto date, a year later the regulations would change. The town sold the landfill and the incinerator to a 3rd party, one that was rated highly by the EPA.

About 8 years later, the friggin landfill exploded and blew all the windows out of the Motel 6. It was nasty, covered everything within 100 yards of the landfill with the most foul substance. So this "highly recommended" company had not properly ventilated or maintained the existing ventillation. Thanks EPA!

We have to play on the same field, if China, Korea, Japan and Russia can produce all the polution they want. The US has the EPA placing more and more restrictions causing companies to just give up and outsource because they cannot compete. Once one company does the rest are forced to do it just to survive.

When is the last time you bought something and it said "made in Great Britian"?

[Bbrenham]

So, you propose to allow users to NOT manage their email. Instead of filing it effectively and deleting extraneous crap, they can just leave it all in their inbox, sent items, etc. I receive at least 1 gig of email a year, excluding email I send. My legal people easily receive 3 gig. Let's assume that a person sends and receives 1 gig total per year. If they have no motivation to clean up, they won't. 1 gig x 10, 000 users amounts to 10 terabytes. Lets also assume that single instance storage helps reduce this to 7 TB. In 3 years, you will have consumed 21 TB of storage.

You now have to manage that storage, back it up and ensure disaster recovery and business continuity are protected.

Lets say that after 5 years, they want to upgrade to new hardware, new versions of the OS and email app. They would have to move 35 TB of data to replacement servers. In addition, there are a whole host of additional considerations in the migration such as the mail DB upgrade which will take quite some time to process.

On top of that, they have to factor in eDiscovery issues, industry regulations and requirements so how much data do they retain for backup and for how long? That could amount to a lot of extra tapes (or other backup media), management, etc. In addition, when backing up this data, do they do it just at the store level or do they also backup down to the mailbox level (aka brick level). At the store level, this could be done somewhat fast, given the right technology. Should they decide to do it at the mailbox level, that could take more time than they have in a give day.

Lastly, they have to contend with antivirus. Do they implement at the gateway, relay and/or on the box or how do they deal with the massive amounts of viruses/malware that bombard a mail system on a daily basis? There is also spam but that is an entire book of considerations.

So, sounds like a plan. You're mail servers will crap out within 2 years (probably much less).Ok, so now you have proven you nothing about IT (amount other things). We will just add that to list. Typical liberal. Dodges the main point, regulations cost money!

For large corporatations the email databases are spread accross several servers. User A would have his DB on server1, user be would have it on ssever2. Anyone that knows anything about IT would know it would never be stored in a single database. That has not been the case since DaVinchi about 25 years ago. And of course replication to DR servers are in place.

Not too mention email retention policies would still be in place, so mail in the inbox that has been read would be deleted after 100 days. Email in folders would be removed once it is a year old.

The current system locks you out of sending until you get below the threshold. The system already purges based on policies in place.

So don't feed your cratp to me cause I won't eat it!

Anti-virus? Are you friggin nuts? That stuff is all stopped at the gateway, in fact if your mail domain is not on a 3rd party list, it is just turned around with a reply on how to get on the list.

Lets just say your idiotic scenatio could happen cause you are running the IT over there.

I said 5K employees would have the email issue out of 10K. So.

$1. 25 mil over 7 years. That is 88 million. Ahhh, last I checked you can get 100 TeraBytes for $125, 000. Tape Backup, funny joke. If you are not using SAN's with double fiber arbritated loops for your storage and backups then you are stuck in the 90's.

Don't even get me started on industry regulations. I do compliance so I am not going to explain that. It is just too, too painful.

So it sounds like my plan would save about $88 mil over 7 years because I would already have a disk cabinet where I could easilly add drives as needed. Because I am a "smart" person (I just smoke to come down to normal people levels) I would have sized the system appropriately.

This is what is wrong with the left. Aviod the topic and come up with some obsurd consequence. In this case it is temperature in the arctic circle or storage and management cost will bankrupt you! No, pal. It would only bankrupt the fools. And they deserve it.

[Bbrenham]

Please review OrdLackBadders post. Seems to fit.

http://usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=902751&postcount=250

As for the climate crap, here are some references to your "2 degree decrease" theory.

http://www.uscentrist.org/about/issues/environment/john_coleman/the-amazing-story-behind-the-global-warming-scam

http://www.grist.org/article/global-warming-stopped-in-1998/

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14527-climate-myths-global-warming-stopped-in-1998.html

In short, the right bases it's stance on, at best, cherry picked research, when they bother to refer to any research at all.

Of course, they can refer to the recent cold spell in the South as a perfect example against global warming. Think local, act yokel. In the Arctic, the temperatures were around 20 degrees warmer at that time. But, of course, that's different...

Have a nice swim and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.Fair enough, I agree with all the regulations that have slowed green house gasses. Lets leave them in place for 10 years so we can bring the jobs home!

Lets allow US Industry compete!

We do not have to regulate CO2. They are trying to classify it as a greenhouse gas. It is naturally released into the environment in a variety of ways. The Sulphur and Acid rain from it are far worse but the existing scrubbers on the stacks address that.

The fact is any carbon burning thing will realease CO2. Cows, people, coal fired fuel plants, chickens, pigs, fish, it goes on and on. This a ploy to create the "carbon tax". That is what Cap and Trade does, it ain't passing so the EPA is now moving forward with this obserdness about CO2.

20 degress warmer, I am not buying it. First off there ya go again with the non-specifics. 20 degrees warmer than what?! Than your ass? Than my Ass? Than Rome on August 24, 1962? What!

I will check out the ICE Road reports, independent 3rd party responisble for peoples lives.

From your first lefty link.

So this is Center? Center left mayB.

From the "econmy" link. They fail to explain how regulation is good for economy.

"For anyone to claim that we need less regulation in a regulated market merely illustrates how out of touch they are with market realities. Such ideological views are not rational and are the foundation of the economic turmoil we are now in. "

Coleman.

"Now let me take you back to the 1950s when this was going on. Our cities were entrapped in a pall of pollution from the crude internal combustion engines that powered cars and trucks back then and from the uncontrolled emissions from power plants and factories. Cars and factories and power plants were filling the air with all sorts of pollutants. There was a valid and serious concern about the health consequences of this pollution and a strong environmental movement was developing to demand action. Government accepted this challenge and new environmental standards were set. Scientists and engineers came to the rescue. New reformulated fuels were developed for cars, as were new high tech, computer controlled engines and catalytic converters. By the mid seventies cars were no longer big time polluters, emitting only some carbon dioxide and water vapor from their tail pipes. Likewise, new fuel processing and smoke stack scrubbers were added to industrial and power plants and their emissions were greatly reduced, as well. "

Rebuttal

"Again Coleman is building straw men and throwing red herrings at us to distract away from the science of global warming, with the science of pollution control. It's a false dichotomy. One thing has little to do with the other in the context he alludes to.

Humans are putting around 9 billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere every year lately. The smoke stack scrubbers were installed to scrub out some aerosol and toxic pollutants, not CO2. The majority of CO2 still comes from burning coal, not gasoline."

[Bbrenham]

This shows that the US system prefers to take care of rich Canadians rather than regular Americans.

The US health care system is only the best in the world for those who can afford it.

Unfortunately fewer and fewer Americans can afford it.

Think your insurance will cover you? Did you ever read your policy? Look for terms such as 'exclusion for pre-existing conditions', 'annual coverage limit', 'lifetime coverage limit'. You will be surprised!

If you get into an accident and the ambulance takes you to a 'out of network' hospital, your screwed!

I would take my chance with the Canadian/French/Dutch/German/British system everyday. Don't have to worry about ending up in a 'out of network' hospital there!Just get in line at the ER with the all the illegals. Give the fake name, no ID. Just go watch and learn from the illegals. You will have access to anything you need. It is only the hard working, honest people that get screwed by the insurance company. The reason they pull this crap is because hospitals and doctors submit inlfated bills to pay for all the free care and dicount care (medi-care) they provide.

So why not throw the illegals out, kill medi-care and provide guaranteed govt insurance underwritten by the insurance companies? The patient pays the government. If you on welfare, just like the working guy your premium will be subtracted from your check. It is still free! The poverty stricken would pay less or nothing at all. This would mean you would have to allow all insurance companies to operate in all states. Good heavans no! Could one of you leftist loonbags please tell me why this is so bad? Remember all the fighting against the big pharmacy chains. Did it turn out so bad to allow Pharmicies to operate nationally? It was not always allowed ya know.

[Bbrenham]

Please review OrdLackBadders post

Seems to fit.

http://usasexguide.info/forum/showp...1&postcount=250

That is too funny, has somebody been following my brother around?

[Bell Bottom]

Ah, you seem to know it all. Funny enough, I probably wrote the policies and architected the systems you use. I truly enjoy these rants of yours. You read into everything and make assumptions about things I haven't said, such as that email would be stored in a single DB.

In 1999, my Exchange environment in just one location was 12 gig. That grew to 120 gig by 2005 in just that one message store. MS Exchange stored all mail in single DBs but with the 2003 and 2007, you can partition a server into multiple user stores. Domino stores in individual user mail files. What I refer to is the massive increase of email that would happen without the controls you complain (like a baby) about.

All the other things mentioned were not part of your original diatriB. They are, however, features and services put in place (not default settings) of a Microsoft Exchange environment.

So I ran the MS capacity planner and made a few assumptions (like you always do). Assuming 2 sites, using a SAN and in a single server failover cluster, you would have at least 3 active and 3 passive mailbox servers per site. You would also have 2 client access servers per site. This ignores all the edge equipment (relays, firewalls, etc.).

Alternatively, you can virtualize your environments using VMware, XenServer, Sun or Microsoft. That still requires some seriously beefy servers, a major fiberchannel infrastructure, a SAN (also probably clustered), etc. And you won't save much on server hardware and it won't really simplify your architecture.

Or you can be an idiot and rant about things you have only a peripheral understanding of.

Maybe you should write a memo to the head of IT, informing him that you've found that 100 TB, suitable to handle enterprise storage, can be had for 125k. He'll pass the memo around to all IT and you'll be the laughing stock of the company.


Ok, so now you have proven you nothing about IT (amount other things). We will just add that to list. Typical liberal. Dodges the main point, regulations cost money!

For large corporatations the email databases are spread accross several servers. User A would have his DB on server1, user be would have it on ssever2. Anyone that knows anything about IT would know it would never be stored in a single database. That has not been the case since DaVinchi about 25 years ago. And of course replication to DR servers are in place.

Not too mention email retention policies would still be in place, so mail in the inbox that has been read would be deleted after 100 days. Email in folders would be removed once it is a year old.

The current system locks you out of sending until you get below the threshold. The system already purges based on policies in place.

So don't feed your cratp to me cause I won't eat it!

Anti-virus? Are you friggin nuts? That stuff is all stopped at the gateway, in fact if your mail domain is not on a 3rd party list, it is just turned around with a reply on how to get on the list.

Lets just say your idiotic scenatio could happen cause you are running the IT over there.

I said 5K employees would have the email issue out of 10K. So.

$1. 25 mil over 7 years. That is 88 million. Ahhh, last I checked you can get 100 TeraBytes for $125, 000. Tape Backup, funny joke. If you are not using SAN's with double fiber arbritated loops for your storage and backups then you are stuck in the 90's.

Don't even get me started on industry regulations. I do compliance so I am not going to explain that. It is just too, too painful.

So it sounds like my plan would save about $88 mil over 7 years because I would already have a disk cabinet where I could easilly add drives as needed. Because I am a "smart" person (I just smoke to come down to normal people levels) I would have sized the system appropriately.

This is what is wrong with the left. Aviod the topic and come up with some obsurd consequence. In this case it is temperature in the arctic circle or storage and management cost will bankrupt you! No, pal. It would only bankrupt the fools. And they deserve it.

[Bell Bottom]

You do realize that CO2 isn't the most significant greenhouse gas. Methane and a whole host of other gases are far more powerful at trapping heat.

As for scrubbers, the coal industry fights nonstop to avoid installing them. Many Midwest plants still don't have them but are required to install when they upgrade equipment (vs general repairs). The Northeast gets bombarded by acid rain thanks to the coal plants in the Midwest. Talk to the maple syrup farmers in VT, New Hampshire, etc. About how acid rain affects the trees (leeching nutrients such as calcium and generally stressing them).

As for the rest, I didn't bother to tackle the issues with cap and trade, etc. I merely pointed out the fallacy of your claim concerning the temperature decrease.

Is there such a thing in your world as a Centrist? Is everyone left of your point of view a "lefty"?


Fair enough, I agree with all the regulations that have slowed green house gasses. Lets leave them in place for 10 years so we can bring the jobs home!

Lets allow US Industry compete!

We do not have to regulate CO2. They are trying to classify it as a greenhouse gas. It is naturally released into the environment in a variety of ways. The Sulphur and Acid rain from it are far worse but the existing scrubbers on the stacks address that.

The fact is any carbon burning thing will realease CO2. Cows, people, coal fired fuel plants, chickens, pigs, fish, it goes on and on. This a ploy to create the "carbon tax". That is what Cap and Trade does, it ain't passing so the EPA is now moving forward with this obserdness about CO2.

20 degress warmer, I am not buying it. First off there ya go again with the non-specifics. 20 degrees warmer than what?! Than your ass? Than my Ass? Than Rome on August 24, 1962? What!

I will check out the ICE Road reports, independent 3rd party responisble for peoples lives.

From your first lefty link.

So this is Center? Center left maybe.

From the "econmy" link. They fail to explain how regulation is good for economy.

"For anyone to claim that we need less regulation in a regulated market merely illustrates how out of touch they are with market realities. Such ideological views are not rational and are the foundation of the economic turmoil we are now in. "

Coleman.

"Now let me take you back to the 1950s when this was going on. Our cities were entrapped in a pall of pollution from the crude internal combustion engines that powered cars and trucks back then and from the uncontrolled emissions from power plants and factories. Cars and factories and power plants were filling the air with all sorts of pollutants. There was a valid and serious concern about the health consequences of this pollution and a strong environmental movement was developing to demand action. Government accepted this challenge and new environmental standards were set. Scientists and engineers came to the rescue. New reformulated fuels were developed for cars, as were new high tech, computer controlled engines and catalytic converters. By the mid seventies cars were no longer big time polluters, emitting only some carbon dioxide and water vapor from their tail pipes. Likewise, new fuel processing and smoke stack scrubbers were added to industrial and power plants and their emissions were greatly reduced, as well. "

Rebuttal

"Again Coleman is building straw men and throwing red herrings at us to distract away from the science of global warming, with the science of pollution control. It's a false dichotomy. One thing has little to do with the other in the context he alludes to.

Humans are putting around 9 billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere every year lately. The smoke stack scrubbers were installed to scrub out some aerosol and toxic pollutants, not CO2. The majority of CO2 still comes from burning coal, not gasoline. "

[Bell Bottom]

You live in a utopian world. Do you think it's even remotely possible to kick out even 1/100th of the illegals living here? Who will clean your office? Who will pick the apples, lettuce, and all the other foods we eat? Who will process the dead animals we eat? The list goes on.

A better solution would be to incorporate them officially into society and tax them like all us legal folks. The taxes alone would more than cover the current stress on the emergency rooms and would probably lower costs all around since they could then qualify for employer insurance (except maybe at Walmart). They could start actually benefiting society instead of living in an underground economy that contributes nothing to the society in which it festers.

Or is this too utopian?

Is there such a thing as a Centrist? Is everyone who's politics are left of your extreme position "leftist loonbags"?


Just get in line at the ER with the all the illegals. Give the fake name, no ID. Just go watch and learn from the illegals. You will have access to anything you need. It is only the hard working, honest people that get screwed by the insurance company. The reason they pull this crap is because hospitals and doctors submit inlfated bills to pay for all the free care and dicount care (medi-care) they provide.

So why not throw the illegals out, kill medi-care and provide guaranteed govt insurance underwritten by the insurance companies? The patient pays the government. If you on welfare, just like the working guy your premium will be subtracted from your check. It is still free! The poverty stricken would pay less or nothing at all. This would mean you would have to allow all insurance companies to operate in all states. Good heavans no! Could one of you leftist loonbags please tell me why this is so bad? Remember all the fighting against the big pharmacy chains. Did it turn out so bad to allow Pharmicies to operate nationally? It was not always allowed ya know.

[Bbrenham]

You live in a utopian world. Do you think it's even remotely possible to kick out even 1/100th of the illegals living here? Who will clean your office? Who will pick the apples, lettuce, and all the other foods we eat? Who will process the dead animals we eat? The list goes on.

A better solution would be to incorporate them officially into society and tax them like all us legal folks. The taxes alone would more than cover the current stress on the emergency rooms and would probably lower costs all around since they could then qualify for employer insurance (except maybe at Walmart). They could start actually benefiting society instead of living in an underground economy that contributes nothing to the society in which it festers.

Or is this too utopian?

Is there such a thing as a Centrist? Is everyone who's politics are left of your extreme position "leftist loonbags"?I would accept that with a national sales tax cause these people dont and will continue not to pay into the system leaving the rest of us to pay for them. Last I checked 1 out of every 10 americans is out of work, so kicking them out would provide jobs for those people and all the lazy ass libs that wont work. I am Center right pal! I no so stupid to see how far left you are. Just because you are way out there dont accuse me of being extreme right wing. I woulod never be in this site if that were true.

[Bbrenham]

You do realize that CO2 isn't the most significant greenhouse gas. Methane and a whole host of other gases are far more powerful at trapping heat.

As for scrubbers, the coal industry fights nonstop to avoid installing them. Many Midwest plants still don't have them but are required to install when they upgrade equipment (vs general repairs). The Northeast gets bombarded by acid rain thanks to the coal plants in the Midwest. Talk to the maple syrup farmers in VT, New Hampshire, etc. About how acid rain affects the trees (leeching nutrients such as calcium and generally stressing them).

As for the rest, I didn't bother to tackle the issues with cap and trade, etc. I merely pointed out the fallacy of your claim concerning the temperature decrease.

Is there such a thing in your world as a Centrist? Is everyone left of your point of view a "lefty"?I think we actually agree here, I am opposed to CO2 regulations and further tightning of existing requlations. I agree, the plants that have not been retro-fitted should be shutdown, it has been long enough. Also, one more note, the hole in the ozone layer is slowly repairing itself. Experts say this is one of the reasons for any increase in temp.

[Bbrenham]

Ah, you seem to know it all. Funny enough, I probably wrote the policies and architected the systems you use. I truly enjoy these rants of yours. You read into everything and make assumptions about things I haven't said, such as that email would be stored in a single DB.

In 1999, my Exchange environment in just one location was 12 gig. That grew to 120 gig by 2005 in just that one message store. MS Exchange stored all mail in single DBs but with the 2003 and 2007, you can partition a server into multiple user stores. Domino stores in individual user mail files. What I refer to is the massive increase of email that would happen without the controls you complain (like a baby) about.

All the other things mentioned were not part of your original diatriB. They are, however, features and services put in place (not default settings) of a Microsoft Exchange environment.

So I ran the MS capacity planner and made a few assumptions (like you always do). Assuming 2 sites, using a SAN and in a single server failover cluster, you would have at least 3 active and 3 passive mailbox servers per site. You would also have 2 client access servers per site. This ignores all the edge equipment (relays, firewalls, etc.).

Alternatively, you can virtualize your environments using VMware, XenServer, Sun or Microsoft. That still requires some seriously beefy servers, a major fiberchannel infrastructure, a SAN (also probably clustered), etc. And you won't save much on server hardware and it won't really simplify your architecture.

Or you can be an idiot and rant about things you have only a peripheral understanding of.

Maybe you should write a memo to the head of IT, informing him that you've found that 100 TB, suitable to handle enterprise storage, can be had for 125k. He'll pass the memo around to all IT and you'll be the laughing stock of the company.Don't think so, I contacted my storage guy and aside from the fibre switch, that is the cost.

You are missing the entire point or purposely confusining it. You know what you wrote, we all do. You totally backtracked and start brining in irrelaventcies to cloud the issue. Who cares about VM!

The point is for a lot less money you could remove the restriction and hire a team of people to deal with the management and still come out on top.

Peripheral knowledge, please.

Idiotic rant, more like factual responses to moronic statements.

Like I said, the SAN and Fiber switches would already be in place. I spent a mil 5 replacing the older clarions and all the fibre switches and server NICs.

[Bell Bottom]

We installed 12 TB of Netapp NAS storage in my business using only iSCSI which costs less than FC but doesn't support multipathing. The NAS cost over $50k. Enterprise storage, suitable to handle massive I/O, multiple failure fault tolerance, snapshot, replication, etc. Is quite a bit more money than $125k for 100 TB. SAN storage is even more money.

As for VM, other than Exchange and some Oracle shared instances, EVERYTHING in my business is VM. I designed much of that infrastructure. So, my business cares a great deal about VM. Architecting an email environment for fault tolerance, uptime, etc. means thinking about alternatives and VM is certainly one path.

The point of it all is that storage, even in Enterprise systems isn't necessarily the issue. Uncontrolled growth is the issue. Ensuring users have to do cleanup is essential to help keep growth reasonable.

You should be more compliant as you only seem to see the next 12 months. In my world, 5 years and out MUST be factored into every decision. Stability now and down the line is of utmost importance. What does email, digital archiving and storage look like in the future and how best to leverage existing and future technologies to meet the future is more important than a whiny baby complaining that he has to actually manage his email.


Don't think so, I contacted my storage guy and aside from the fibre switch, that is the cost.

You are missing the entire point or purposely confusining it. You know what you wrote, we all do. You totally backtracked and start brining in irrelaventcies to cloud the issue. Who cares about VM!

The point is for a lot less money you could remove the restriction and hire a team of people to deal with the management and still come out on top.

Peripheral knowledge, please.

Idiotic rant, more like factual responses to moronic statements.

Like I said, the SAN and Fiber switches would already be in place. I spent a mil 5 replacing the older clarions and all the fibre switches and server NICs.

[Bell Bottom]

Two additional points. Storage is more than just the cost of the storage. It's all the infrastructure supporting it. As you state below:


I spent a mil 5 replacing the older clarions and all the fibre switches and server NICs.So, where is the $125k for 100 TB?

The other point is to do with this statement:


The point is for a lot less money you could remove the restriction and hire a team of people to deal with the management and still come out on top.How would they manage the system? Go in and move the data for the individuals? I already noted that 10k people would generate a huge amount of data. You either have an explosion of servers to support all the mailboxes growing out of control or you end up with a message store which grows to the point where stability isn't guaranteed and repairing errors in the store could take days. I suppose this management team could have full access to all mailboxes and then file data for the users. Of course, who is better suited to manage and organize their email than the user.

Maybe you should rant to management about having to manage your email. They seem to have already made the exact decision me and my business made. But you seem to know better, oh wise and omniscient Compliance, Security, IT Dude.

[Bell Bottom]

I would accept that with a national sales tax cause these people dont and will continue not to pay into the system leaving the rest of us to pay for them. Last I checked 1 out of every 10 americans is out of work, so kicking them out would provide jobs for those people and all the lazy ass libs that wont work. I am Center right pal! I no so stupid to see how far left you are. Just because you are way out there dont accuse me of being extreme right wing. I woulod never be in this site if that were true.Considering the sources you quote and the extremist points you make, center right would be true only if Glen Beck were a Centrist. You've stated before the old RINO comment concerning other Republicans and that places you a lot further right or don't you recall your little statement:


"I have held my nose and voted republican since Reagan but I may join the constitution party if the "morons" don't smarten up."I suppose I am a left wing extremist. Of course, the most extreme of my references to facts posted here has been from MSNBC but we all know that's way out there.

[Bbrenham]

We installed 12 TB of Netapp NAS storage in my business using only iSCSI which costs less than FC but doesn't support multipathing. The NAS cost over $50k. Enterprise storage, suitable to handle massive I/O, multiple failure fault tolerance, snapshot, replication, etc. Is quite a bit more money than $125k for 100 TB. SAN storage is even more money.

As for VM, other than Exchange and some Oracle shared instances, EVERYTHING in my business is VM. I designed much of that infrastructure. So, my business cares a great deal about VM. Architecting an email environment for fault tolerance, uptime, etc. means thinking about alternatives and VM is certainly one path.

The point of it all is that storage, even in Enterprise systems isn't necessarily the issue. Uncontrolled growth is the issue. Ensuring users have to do cleanup is essential to help keep growth reasonable.

You should be more compliant as you only seem to see the next 12 months. In my world, 5 years and out MUST be factored into every decision. Stability now and down the line is of utmost importance. What does email, digital archiving and storage look like in the future and how best to leverage existing and future technologies to meet the future is more important than a whiny baby complaining that he has to actually manage his email.Sorry buddy, I decided what data stays, what data is backed up and what gets deleted and when. Except for Email ... I if I owned that we would be off notes and on exchange. But I digress ..

Any HW that will be in the data center needs fiber or it don't come into the data center or it don't get centralized storage and it will never be backed up.
This forces business unit to purchase what is needed when they buy the server.

So every X86, Sparc or Motorola based system comes in the building with 2 FC cards. As I stated about 3 times now, the infracture is already in place. I am talking cabinets, trays and drives. I if worked for you I would quit and you worked for me you would be fired .... $100K is more than enough money to add 100TB to an existing Centera. You are correct, it was big bucks to put the infrastructure in but that has been in place for almost 10 years. Aside from firmware issues on the Fibre switch, Another point mentioned already is email management will not change. Policies are already in place delete aged emails thus still forcing people to manage their email. I don't believe the 1GB new limit would ever be reached with inbound attachment size limit of 10MB.

But fucking 100MB, the current limit is reached real fuckin easy! So none of your "the world is going to fucking end" arguements can even apply.

VMWARE - Yes best thing since sliced bread, of course it runs on LINUX. But has nothing to do except I saved myself from buying a new fibre switch by reducing HW, thus reducing ports. Crap ... I had extra they told me! So this helps my arguement more. Invest some of that 88Mil in savings for Vmware.

the money - infrastructure been place and paid for ...

uncontrolled growth - 4th time now, email retention policies in place, mailbox set to 1GB, or 500MB, Just not 100!!

That is liberal way, overspend and regulate those who give the money.

"The problem is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

Quote by some famous guy in England that smoked a lot cigars.

Look, clouding the facts with things like "VMWare" and "iSCSI" is the leftist primary weapon due to the absence of intelligence and rational thought.

I quote you!

"In my world, 5 years and out MUST be factored into every decision. Stability now and down the line is of utmost importance."

While just in the leading paragraph you type this !@!

"We installed 12 TB of Netapp NAS storage in my business using only ISCSI which costs less than FC but doesn't support multipathing."

So you decide on single connected iSCSI on NAS for your corporate data storage. Gee I bet that's fast! OHHH and sooo STABLE. Ha single connected, loose the switch or the router its on, or general network issue, good luck getting to your data. That is fine for end user shared storage but for servers and databases in the data center Fiber Channel with double loops is the only way to go.

The conservative, the business savvy and smart guy would know that investing a few mil $ in san early would yield savings beyond the 88mil over that time.

I am getting tired of stating the same thing to answer to your pathetic attempts to push that regulation works. I am ready to regulate your breathing with my hands but that would be wrong and make me just like you.

Wrong!

[LordBlackAdder]

...
That is liberal way, overspend and regulate those who give the money.

"The problem is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

Quote by some famous guy in England that smoked a lot cigars....

Not sure what any of this computer stuff has to do with politics and I understand none of it so will refrain from commenting. But I need to correct you on your quote here.

The quote you are thinking of is:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people' money"

Which is a simplied version of the "real" quote:

"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money."

No big problem here, however you do have it attributed to the wrong person since I have heard Baroness Thatcher called many things but never a guy that smoked a lot of cigars. Since there are a few people out there who did not like her, I am not one of them and once had an ex-girlfriend refer to me as a Thatcherite Wanker (she was half correct).

One of her Mrs Thatcher's other great quotes on socialism is:

"Socialists have always spent much of their time seeking new titles for their beliefs, because the old versions so quickly become outdated and discredited."

This rings particularly true these days since they now call themselves progressives and do not like being called what they are. I guess socialist is no longer a PC term.

And as far as PC goes, it brings me to my last quote of the day:

"If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success." -Confucius

[LordBlackAdder]

Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said, "Someone may steal from it at night." So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job.

Then Congress said, "How does the watchman do his job without instruction?" So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions, and one person to do time studies.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?" So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One to do the studies and one to write the reports.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?" So They created the following positions, a time keeper, and a payroll officer, Then hired two people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?" So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.

Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one Year and we are $500,000 over budget, we must cutback overall cost."

So they laid off the night watchman.

[John Black]

Just get in line at the ER with the all the illegals. Give the fake name, no ID. Just go watch and learn from the illegals. You will have access to anything you need.Not really. The ER is only place the illegals can go for health care. All the ER staff can do is patch them up and send them home. They don't provide any long term care let alone any expensive surgeries or treatments, those are reserved for people with (good) insurance.


It is only the hard working, honest people that get screwed by the insurance company. The reason they pull this crap is because hospitals and doctors submit inlfated bills to pay for all the free care and dicount care (medi-care) they provide.Yes, the bills for the insured are inflated to pay for those who don't have insurance. If only everybody would have insurance. If only the insurance companies would be required to provide a certain level or care to everybody for a fair price.


So why not throw the illegals outDo you really think that 'Throwing all the illegals out' is simple and will solve all the problems? Think again. You can't deport anybody without a deportation order from a federal court. Immigration laws and rules are very complex. Every 'illegal' can get his day(s) in court. Perhaps some comprehensive immigration reform would be in order.

You also can't deport anybody without the cooperation of the government of the countries you want to deport people to (foreign countries are also picky about who they allow to enter). Sometimes countries won't cooperate if they think their citizens were not treated fairly.


kill medi-care and provide guaranteed govt insurance underwritten by the insurance companies? The patient pays the government.Isn't that Medicare? So why kill it?

Are you saying we need MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL over the private insurance companies? What a crazy and dangerous idea!

Private insurance companies spend about 35% of all incoming premiums on themselves. The Medicare program has only 10% overhead since it doesn't have to pay shareholders or run expensive advertising campaigns to attract more business. How inefficient!


If you on welfare, just like the working guy your premium will be subtracted from your check. It is still free! The poverty stricken would pay less or nothing at all. This would mean you would have to allow all insurance companies to operate in all states. Good heavans no! Could one of you leftist loonbags please tell me why this is so bad? Remember all the fighting against the big pharmacy chains. Did it turn out so bad to allow Pharmicies to operate nationally? It was not always allowed ya know.Allowing insurance companies to operate across state lines would only work if all the States adopt the same rules. Otherwise they would simply all be based in the State with the fewest regulations. Of course some States have far less regulations in place than others. States would bend over backwards to attract these companies and lower their own standards making it easier and easier for insurance companies to raise their prices and limit their coverage. Is that so hard to understand for all you crazy right wing nuts?

If 'socialized' health care is such a bad idea, then why was Ronald Reagan's best foreign friend and strong anti-socialist Margaret Thatcher (former British Conservative Prime Minister) so well known in her own country for stating: 'The NHS (National Heath Service) is safe in my hands! ' (and it was).

[Bell Bottom]

Yes dear. You still are a whiny baby and digress constantly. Not going to post anymore on this subject because you argue like a 4 year old who can't follow a thought from one end to the other. Let's just say that a fortune 5 company uses the mail standards I just noted. As for the rest, I cited one recent installation for a small subset of my business. You install systems that are scaled appropriately and with fault tolerances suited to need. Fiber is used where needed, CAT5 / CAT6 are used where appropriate, yada yada yada.

Just like you thinking I don't agree with CAP and Trade which was never stated, you read into everything and respond without pausing and understanding. Maybe you should try this tactic at your business and see how far you get.

And yes, posting this drivel in a political forum is silly and further points to the fact that you'll rant at anything. You're about as Center Right as Glen Beck and make pretty much the same wild and false statements.


Sorry buddy, I decided what data stays, what data is backed up and what gets deleted and when. Except for Email ... I if I owned that we would be off notes and on exchange. But I digress ..

Any HW that will be in the data center needs fiber or it don't come into the data center or it don't get centralized storage and it will never be backed up.
This forces business unit to purchase what is needed when they buy the server.

So every X86, Sparc or Motorola based system comes in the building with 2 FC cards. As I stated about 3 times now, the infracture is already in place. I am talking cabinets, trays and drives. I if worked for you I would quit and you worked for me you would be fired .... $100K is more than enough money to add 100TB to an existing Centera. You are correct, it was big bucks to put the infrastructure in but that has been in place for almost 10 years. Aside from firmware issues on the Fibre switch, Another point mentioned already is email management will not change. Policies are already in place delete aged emails thus still forcing people to manage their email. I don't believe the 1GB new limit would ever be reached with inbound attachment size limit of 10MB.

But fucking 100MB, the current limit is reached real fuckin easy! So none of your "the world is going to fucking end" arguements can even apply.

VMWARE - Yes best thing since sliced bread, of course it runs on LINUX. But has nothing to do except I saved myself from buying a new fibre switch by reducing HW, thus reducing ports. Crap ... I had extra they told me! So this helps my arguement more. Invest some of that 88Mil in savings for Vmware.

the money - infrastructure been place and paid for ...

uncontrolled growth - 4th time now, email retention policies in place, mailbox set to 1GB, or 500MB, Just not 100!!

That is liberal way, overspend and regulate those who give the money.

"The problem is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

Quote by some famous guy in England that smoked a lot cigars.

Look, clouding the facts with things like "VMWare" and "iSCSI" is the leftist primary weapon due to the absence of intelligence and rational thought.

I quote you!

"In my world, 5 years and out MUST be factored into every decision. Stability now and down the line is of utmost importance."

While just in the leading paragraph you type this !@!

"We installed 12 TB of Netapp NAS storage in my business using only ISCSI which costs less than FC but doesn't support multipathing."

So you decide on single connected iSCSI on NAS for your corporate data storage. Gee I bet that's fast! OHHH and sooo STABLE. Ha single connected, loose the switch or the router its on, or general network issue, good luck getting to your data. That is fine for end user shared storage but for servers and databases in the data center Fiber Channel with double loops is the only way to go.

The conservative, the business savvy and smart guy would know that investing a few mil $ in san early would yield savings beyond the 88mil over that time.

I am getting tired of stating the same thing to answer to your pathetic attempts to push that regulation works. I am ready to regulate your breathing with my hands but that would be wrong and make me just like you.

Wrong!

[Bell Bottom]

I guess George Bush was a "socialist" or a "Progressive".

He certainly spent his way down the toilet.


Not sure what any of this computer stuff has to do with politics and I understand none of it so will refrain from commenting. But I need to correct you on your quote here.

The quote you are thinking of is:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people' money"

Which is a simplied version of the "real" quote:

"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money."

No big problem here, however you do have it attributed to the wrong person since I have heard Baroness Thatcher called many things but never a guy that smoked a lot of cigars. Since there are a few people out there who did not like her, I am not one of them and once had an ex-girlfriend refer to me as a Thatcherite Wanker (she was half correct).

One of her Mrs Thatcher's other great quotes on socialism is:

"Socialists have always spent much of their time seeking new titles for their beliefs, because the old versions so quickly become outdated and discredited."

This rings particularly true these days since they now call themselves progressives and do not like being called what they are. I guess socialist is no longer a PC term.

And as far as PC goes, it brings me to my last quote of the day:

"If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success." -Confucius

[Bbrenham]

Bbrenham & Bell Bottom, you argue like you're married. Make up for cryin' out loud.

I'm just angry because I don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.Don't worry about it Joe niether does Bell bottom.

[Bbrenham]

Seven Principles of the Constitution Party are:

Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;

Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;

Family: One husband and one wife with their children as divinely instituted;

Property: Each individual's right to own and steward personal property without government burden;

Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;

States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government, nor prohibited by the Constitution to the states, is reserved to the states or to the people;

American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

Yeah, right.

I want to be dictated to by the Christian Taliban. "The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. " If they ever held power, these morons are even a greater threat to our liberty.

The Constitution Party is against pro-Choice but oddly are for the death penalty even though the first of their seven principles is Life "For all human beings, from conception to natural death". Typical pro-life, pro-death platform. Maybe they don't understand what the word "all" means.

The following statement, if it was ever acted upon, would put Jackson out of business. "We call on our local, state and federal governments to uphold our cherished First Amendment right to free speech by vigorously enforcing our laws against obscenity to maintain a degree of separation between that which is truly speech and that which only seeks to distort and destroy. " So they want to protect free speech by denying it?

Also opposed to gay marriage, obviously. I believe they would probably stone sex workers.

Just skimming the surface here.

I thought the right wing boneheads were always complaining that Obama and the "socialists" were trying to take away their freedoms.Yeah they got issues, I know that.

I just think they have less issues than libitiarians, repubs ahd dems.

I would still feel safer and more ecomonically secure with someone that comes close to the non religious points.

[Bbrenham]

Not really. The ER is only place the illegals can go for health care. All the ER staff can do is patch them up and send them home. They don't provide any long term care let alone any expensive surgeries or treatments, those are reserved for people with (good) insurance.

Yes, the bills for the insured are inflated to pay for those who don't have insurance. If only everybody would have insurance. If only the insurance companies would be required to provide a certain level or care to everybody for a fair price.

Do you really think that 'Throwing all the illegals out' is simple and will solve all the problems? Think again. You can't deport anybody without a deportation order from a federal court. Immigration laws and rules are very complex. Every 'illegal' can get his day(s) in court. Perhaps some comprehensive immigration reform would be in order.

You also can't deport anybody without the cooperation of the government of the countries you want to deport people to (foreign countries are also picky about who they allow to enter). Sometimes countries won't cooperate if they think their citizens were not treated fairly.

Isn't that Medicare? So why kill it?

Are you saying we need MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL over the private insurance companies? What a crazy and dangerous idea!

Private insurance companies spend about 35% of all incoming premiums on themselves. The Medicare program has only 10% overhead since it doesn't have to pay shareholders or run expensive advertising campaigns to attract more business. How inefficient!

Allowing insurance companies to operate across state lines would only work if all the States adopt the same rules. Otherwise they would simply all be based in the State with the fewest regulations. Of course some States have far less regulations in place than others. States would bend over backwards to attract these companies and lower their own standards making it easier and easier for insurance companies to raise their prices and limit their coverage. Is that so hard to understand for all you crazy right wing nuts?

If 'socialized' health care is such a bad idea, then why was Ronald Reagan's best foreign friend and strong anti-socialist Margaret Thatcher (former British Conservative Prime Minister) so well known in her own country for stating: 'The NHS (National Heath Service) is safe in my hands! ' (and it was).Using Reagan's relationship to justify conservative support for socialized medicine. I don't think so.

Using that same rational, Obama is a terrorist since he hung our with Ayers.

Medicare has been overbudget from it's inception but now so far overbudget even Dems taking aim at it to pay for socialist medical plan.

It don't matter what insurance co does with it profits, what matters is the payers are paying for the non payers. Trust me, if break ur leg or need an triple bypass you will get treated with or without insurance.

Throwing the illegals out - Change the laws or give them their hearing all together on the bus ride back.

[Bbrenham]

I guess George Bush was a "socialist" or a "Progressive".

He certainly spent his way down the toilet.The is only one kind of Bush I like and it is not called George nor does it have any berries.

Lord B. Nice story but you missed the sequel. The security guard goes on to get unemployment becomes extremely lazy, knocks up some chick and goes on welfare. Singing god bless America.

BellBottom.Yeah I am done with you. We all know that you have failed to rebuke a single point I have made.

The main point was regulations cost companies money, even self imposed regulations. I never said no regulations. You used my email analogy to place a giant cloud all over the issue. Now, that you were successful at.

JoeSix. The victim of the cloud. Joe just so you know I have been using fibre optic cables on my networks, mirrored servers and storage networks for 17 years. Simple as this, Fiber based Storage Networks are way better than copper wired.

[Bell Bottom]

But the super Compliance, IT, Security know it all sure does.


Don't worry about it Joe niether does Bell bottom.

[Bell Bottom]

Doubt Joe or anyone really cares. As I said before, you fail to read and assume much. I use fiber where appropriate, copper where appropriate, port trunking where appropriate, yadda yadda yadda. Have a wonderful Monday oh most exalted Compliance, IT, Security guard super dude.


JoeSix. The victim of the cloud. Joe just so you know I have been using fibre optic cables on my networks, mirrored servers and storage networks for 17 years. Simple as this, Fiber based Storage Networks are way better than copper wired.

[Bell Bottom]

Well said! Aside from all the half truths, misstatements, etc. they keep touting as legitimate, I truly worry that, should they get sufficiently into power, separation of church and state would no longer exist in any way, shape or form. The bible has all sorts of interpretations that would lead us down the same path as the Taliban, Iran, etc.

Scary stuff.


Seven Principles of the Constitution Party are:

Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;

Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;

Family: One husband and one wife with their children as divinely instituted;

Property: Each individual's right to own and steward personal property without government burden;

Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;

States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government, nor prohibited by the Constitution to the states, is reserved to the states or to the people;

American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

Yeah, right.

I want to be dictated to by the Christian Taliban. "The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. " If they ever held power, these morons are even a greater threat to our liberty.

The Constitution Party is against pro-Choice but oddly are for the death penalty even though the first of their seven principles is Life "For all human beings, from conception to natural death". Typical pro-life, pro-death platform. Maybe they don't understand what the word "all" means.

The following statement, if it was ever acted upon, would put Jackson out of business. "We call on our local, state and federal governments to uphold our cherished First Amendment right to free speech by vigorously enforcing our laws against obscenity to maintain a degree of separation between that which is truly speech and that which only seeks to distort and destroy. " So they want to protect free speech by denying it?

Also opposed to gay marriage, obviously. I believe they would probably stone sex workers.

Just skimming the surface here.

I thought the right wing boneheads were always complaining that Obama and the "socialists" were trying to take away their freedoms.

[LordBlackAdder]

Obama's day planer from his last day in office Jan 19 2019.*

* 7:00 AM Golf with Tiger Woods
* 8:00 AM Chaplain reads daily verse from the Quran
* 9:00 AM Obama signs bill raising debt limit to 80 trillion dollars; blames Bush tax cuts and economic policies for legacy of debt
* 10:00 AM Scheduled interview with CBS News anchor Janeane Gawdawfulo
* 11:00 AM Morning ration of electricity ends; country goes dark for an hour or four
* 12:00 PM GM declares bankruptcy for eighth time; Obama signs bill making it part of Post Office
* 1:00 PM Obama meets with new President and Vice President, Eric Holder and Van Jones**
* 2:00 PM Obama commemorates trial of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, now in its 10th year
* 3:00 PM Obama signs bill raising debt limit to 90 trillion dollars
* 4:00 PM Obama threatens to impose sanctions on Iran for failing to cap its nuclear weapons production at 7,000
* 5:00 PM Obama signs pact giving Chinese right to drill for oil off California coast; all US coal and petroleum rights now owned by foreign nations; US entirely wind-driven***
* 6:00 PM Obama signs bill raising national debt limit automatically every 15 minutes
* 7:00 PM Another flight mysteriously drops from sky over US territory. Al Qaeda claims credit. Obama notes contemptuously that well over half still land successfully.
* 8:00 PM Michelle returns from last shopping trip as first lady; buys sneakers made out of $30000 handbag
* 9:00 PM Obama signs bill making NY Times and CNN part of Post Office. PO now employs 70 million people. Obama claims credit for holding unemployment caused by Bush depression to under 30%.
* 10:00 PM Obama, in final national speech on Letterman, declares era of Changling Hopeyness a success. David Brooks agrees.
* 11:00 PM Evening ration of electricity ends; country does dark for the night. Terrorist attack with flashlights. Obama cites failure of Bush Administration terrorism and energy policies.
* 12:00 AM Nobel Committee selects Barack Obama as Peace Prize winner for 10th straight year.

~

Notes:
* On 7/19/08, Obama said on Face the Nation he expected to be president for 8 to 10 years. I guess he settled on 10.

** In 2016, the inefficient and useless national election gave way to the glorious progressive tradition of a leader picking his own successor. Its the Chicago Way!

*** Wind is a myth; Congress blows.

[LordBlackAdder]

...
If 'socialized' health care is such a bad idea, then why was Ronald Reagan's best foreign friend and strong anti-socialist Margaret Thatcher (former British Conservative Prime Minister) so well known in her own country for stating: 'The NHS (National Heath Service) is safe in my hands! ' (and it was).

NHS was left alone since it is very difficult if not impossible to take something away from people that they think is thier by right. Mrs. Thatcher however did not use the service herself, unlike Canada in the UK one is allowed to have private insurance.
when asked about it she said: "I, along with something like 5 million other people, insure to enable me to go into hospital on the day I want; at the time I want, and with a doctor I want." All problems one can have with NHS.


Back in the UK- just wait for this to happen here:

Employer told not to post advert for 'reliable' workers because it discriminates
against 'unreliable' applicants

By Ryan Kisiel and Andrew Levy

When it comes to hiring staff, there are plenty of legal pitfalls employers need
to watch out for these days.

So recruitment agency boss Nicole Mamo was especially careful to ensure her
advert for hospital workers did not offend on grounds of race, age or sexual
orientation.

However, she hadn't reckoned on discriminating against a wholly different
section of the community - the completely useless.

Nicole Mamo, director of Devonwood Recruitment was stunned when a job centre in
Thetford, Norfolk, said she could not include the phrase 'reliable and hard
working' in her advert

When she ran the ad past a job centre, she was told she couldn't ask for
'reliable' and 'hard-working' applicants because it could be offensive to
unreliable people.

'In my 15 years in recruitment I haven't heard anything so ridiculous,' Mrs Mamo
said yesterday.

'If the matter wasn't so serious I would be laughing out loud.

The Job Centre in Thetford, Norfolk, said the advert discriminated against
unreliable people

'Unfortunately it's extremely alarming. I need people who are hardworking and
reliable - and I am pleased to discriminate in that way. If they're not then I
really can't use them. The reputation of my business is on the line.

'Even the woman at the jobcentre agreed it was ridiculous but explained it was
policy because they could get sued for being dicriminatory against unreliable
people.

'She told me they'd had lots of problems with people taking them to court for
adverts stating something like "would suit school leaver".'

Mrs Mamo, 48, of Borehamwood, Hertfordshire, runs Devonwood Recruitment, which
supplies hundreds of cleaners, caterers and porters to hospitals across the
country.

She filed the advert for a £5.80-an-hour domestic cleaner at a hospital in Bury
St Edmunds, Suffolk, through the Jobcentre Plus online service last Thursday.

However, when she rang the nearest branch in Thetford, Norfolk, to make sure
details would be available to jobseekers who turned up in person, she was
transferred to a woman who said the wording was unacceptable.

Mrs Mamo, a divorced mother of two, added: 'I had to battle to have "must speak
English", which they also said was discriminatory.

'In the end, I had to write "must speak English due to health and safety
reasons" because they're dealing with hazardous materials.'

The diktat was widely criticised yesterday. A spokesman for the Campaign Against
Political Correctness said: 'This is absolutely ridiculous.

'Of course people want reliable workers and employers should be able to ask for
them. If they can't advertise for what they want then the system is broken.'

[Bbrenham]

Doubt Joe or anyone really cares. As I said before, you fail to read and assume much. I use fiber where appropriate, copper where appropriate, port trunking where appropriate, yadda yadda yadda. Have a wonderful Monday oh most exalted Compliance, IT, Security guard super dude.Please don't compliment me! I get so many I just don't know what do with them. Just please bow your head as if I am passing by. Watch some Obama clips if you need some tips on proper bowing techniques.

Fiber is appropriate in the datacenter and for the fastest and most reliable storage solution. Congrats on using fiber where you select. I respect that you can choose, that is what makes this country great. Too bad we have a foriegn born, muslim dictator and former slumlord lawyer as president who wants to put a stop to that.

[Bbrenham]

NHS was left alone since it is very difficult if not impossible to take something away from people that they think is thier by right. Mrs. Thatcher however did not use the service herself, unlike Canada in the UK one is allowed to have private insurance.

when asked about it she said: "I, along with something like 5 million other people, insure to enable me to go into hospital on the day I want; at the time I want, and with a doctor I want." All problems one can have with NHS.Exactly why we can never have it here. Look at welfare and medicaid. They will never ever be messed with. The right is trying to hold onto elderly support and the left would never touch welfare.

I favor govt insurance in the form of a self payer. The same way some larger employers do it. The insurance company handles all the logistics involved but the employer pays the health provider. The companies loose money, but it is now a write-off and the loss would only be the difference of what is taken in via the premiums.

If the govt. did this at least some of it is paid for with co-pays and premiums taken from welfare checks. The poorest of the poor would pay nothing but at least their costs are spread amongst everyone.

The problem is that even if some law is passed and the program is economical the left will expand the program to those that should not get it, such as Illegal Aliens.

[Bell Bottom]

All hail oh great mustard.
All hail oh great retard.
All hail oh great ding dong.
All hail the all "no"ing, all crying, baby.

BrendaHam, you are my hero!


Please don't compliment me! I get so many I just don't know what do with them. Just please bow your head as if I am passing by. Watch some Obama clips if you need some tips on proper bowing techniques.

Fiber is appropriate in the datacenter and for the fastest and most reliable storage solution. Congrats on using fiber where you select. I respect that you can choose, that is what makes this country great. Too bad we have a foriegn born, muslim dictator and former slumlord lawyer as president who wants to put a stop to that.

[Bell Bottom]

Funny thing about Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, they were (and are) deeply opposed by Republicans (aka the "right"). It was Democrats who brought those bills into congress and passed them, despite significant grumblings from the right. In addition, the right would dump these programs faster than girls dump you, if they got the chance. But you're too stupid to realize this so you make one more idiotic claim that is so off base you, were tagged out the moment you started typing.

As for the UK, Stephen Hawking has come out and stated that he wouldn't be alive were it not for the NHS. He certainly wasn't always famous and the NHS certainly did far more to ensure his quality of life and health than he would have enjoyed in the USA. Lets face it, he's far smarter than you. Then again, considering the claims you make that the right brought about Medicare, etc., an amoeba seems to know more than you.


Exactly why we can never have it here. Look at welfare and medicaid. They will never ever be messed with. The right is trying to hold onto elderly support and the left would never touch welfare.

I favor govt insurance in the form of a self payer. The same way some larger employers do it. The insurance company handles all the logistics involved but the employer pays the health provider. The companies loose money, but it is now a write-off and the loss would only be the difference of what is taken in via the premiums.

If the govt. did this at least some of it is paid for with co-pays and premiums taken from welfare checks. The poorest of the poor would pay nothing but at least their costs are spread amongst everyone.

The problem is that even if some law is passed and the program is economical the left will expand the program to those that should not get it, such as Illegal Aliens.

[LordBlackAdder]

some misc random pictures. Including one of the One with telepromoters used to address a fifth grade class.

[Bell Bottom]

So, one more thing...

Some facts on Ethernet standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_gigabit_Ethernet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_gigabit_Ethernet

Short story, the most common implementations of fiber run at:
1 gig, 2 gig, 4 gig, 8 gig or even 10 gig

Copper also supports 1 gig, 10 gig or 40/100 gig. Trunk 4 NICs together and you get 4 gig for far less than fiber).

Here's an interesting one on Google's servers:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html
Don't see no fiber on this.

Fiber is great in LARGE data centers. In a LARGE company, you can end up with offices EVERYWHERE and not all of them are large. In small deployments (lets say 100 - 200 people), you could purchase some brand new HP DL380 G6 servers (4 NICs onboard) and while your at it, throw in a few extra 4 port PCIe NICs (much faster bus speeds than PCIx). This gives you 12 NICs to play with. Trunk these up into Public and iSCSI interfaces and you get 6 gig of throughput per interface (splitting equally). Connect those to a clustered set of switches and you get a fault tolerance and high throughput for FAR less than fiber. More than enough for 100 - 200 people.

But you seem to "no" it all so I bow to your superior intellect. You are special (ed).


Please don't compliment me! I get so many I just don't know what do with them. Just please bow your head as if I am passing by. Watch some Obama clips if you need some tips on proper bowing techniques.

Fiber is appropriate in the datacenter and for the fastest and most reliable storage solution. Congrats on using fiber where you select. I respect that you can choose, that is what makes this country great. Too bad we have a foriegn born, muslim dictator and former slumlord lawyer as president who wants to put a stop to that.

[LordBlackAdder]

Exactly why we can never have it here. Look at welfare and medicaid. They will never ever be messed with. The right is trying to hold onto elderly support and the left would never touch welfare.

I favor govt insurance in the form of a self payer. The same way some larger employers do it. The insurance company handles all the logistics involved but the employer pays the health provider. The companies loose money, but it is now a write-off and the loss would only be the difference of what is taken in via the premiums.

If the govt. did this at least some of it is paid for with co-pays and premiums taken from welfare checks. The poorest of the poor would pay nothing but at least their costs are spread amongst everyone.

The problem is that even if some law is passed and the program is economical the left will expand the program to those that should not get it, such as Illegal Aliens.

Not all Brits have bad teeth, although many do as do many British guys going bald in their 20's. A mate of mine who was bald turned 35 in the early 90s when a book called "Tall, Bald and 35" came out, since he was a rather tall chap needless to say he got multiple copies of the book for his birthday.

The BIGGEST problems with health care almost everywhere is that the person who recieves the care is often not responsible for directly paying for it and thus has little incentives to shop around for the best deal. Plus the providers expect to be paid regardless of the outcome of their work.

Since it is almost impossible to find out how much something will cost before hand it is very hard to shop around. Things like boob jobs and lasik are examples of things that they will tell you the price of since insurance does not cover these things. However if you go to a vet they WILL tell you how much it costs to have something done to your cat. Vet around here has everything in a computer and the gal at the front desk can give you a quote on the phone if you know waht needs doing. Other vets are the same way and you will go to the one that gives you the best value for money. They KNOW at some point you will decide your cat is not worth it and you will just say "Fluffy has to die, make it painless" not something you are likely to do with your spouse or parents or kids. I know human doctors seem to charge lots more simply because they can, the basics of the treatments remains the same. Plus human patients can tell the doctor what is wrong! I have talked to people over here who have told me stories of when they were kids they would visi the doctor and their mon would write a cheeque for services rendered when they left. Prices for things will come down if the customer has to pay for things himself. Leave insurance for the truely catostrophic things that are very expensive. In much the same way as if you get a scratch in the paint on your car you buff it out and / or use some touch up paint, not bothering the insurance company, but if you hit a deer you get insurance to take care of it.

A guy I know who fixes cars recently had to have a root canal. Something he paid for out of his own pocket- no dental insurance. Finding it very hard to find a place that would tell him how much the procedure would be. They wound up doing it to a prefectly good tooth. Something he discovered the day after when the bad tooth still hurt he went back and they screwed up both the bad tooth and the one they just did. And had to pull both. So he had to pay for one root cnal and two teeth puls plus some extra work in bewteen and was rather upset. He said if he fucked up on a car he would have to make it right out of his own pocket. Plus he (in car fixing) is required by law to let the customer know how much the repair will be and if it goes over by more than 10% he must inform the customer and get authorization to do it

[LordBlackAdder]

If you do a google search of Bush fail guess what- you get lots of hits, almost 16 MILLION!

If you do the same for Obama, who has been in office about 14% of the time Bush 41 was you get over twice as many hits!

Plus some of the hits on Bush fail could be in reference to his father!

[Bell Bottom]

But that has nothing to do with a right wing that hates to lose and behaves like a 4 year old who has had it's candy taken away.

Nor could it have anything to do with how partisan politics has become.

A lie will make it around the world in the time it takes the true to put it's shoes on.


If you do a google search of Bush fail guess what- you get lots of hits, almost 16 MILLION!

If you do the same for Obama, who has been in office about 14% of the time Bush 41 was you get over twice as many hits!

Plus some of the hits on Bush fail could be in reference to his father!

[Bell Bottom]

Do you really want this wingnut or the group she represents to be in power?

[Seva Lurker]

If you do a google search of Bush fail guess what- you get lots of hits, almost 16 MILLION!

If you do the same for Obama, who has been in office about 14% of the time Bush 41 was you get over twice as many hits!

Plus some of the hits on Bush fail could be in reference to his father!

I really hate posting in this thread. Especially since I really don't care for the Democratic party's approach to things and being called a racist when I disagree with Obama's idea the govt should run it all.

I refined the search a bit and went with 'Bush failures' and 'Obama failures'. Even that refinement doesn't help Obama all that much.

Bush led with 3.21 million followed by Obama's 2.98 million. Should Obama continue at that rate, he will far surpass the Bush number.

I'm surprised at the disparity of the original search though. After all Bush is a much more common word that Obama. I've got a bush in my yard that fails to die when I spray vegetation killer on it.

But then we also need to keep in mind an old Mark Twain maxim, he attributed it to Benjamin Disraeli (but that is debatable but not the point) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics).

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[Spenard Fan]

WOW Bellbottom,,, she scares the fuck right out of you, huh. The chick is living in your head,, rent free.

[Bell Bottom]

Certainly not all of the right is racist. That said, between the statements of the Adler, BbrendaBaby and Agentlesss61, they could form a new triumvirate of hate.

As for the rest, it seems to me the right (especially the far right) is FAR more vocal than the center, left and far left combined.

I really enjoyed the Twain quote, especially considering that he was very much a liberal.


I really hate posting in this thread. Especially since I really don't care for the Democratic party's approach to things and being called a racist when I disagree with Obama's idea the govt should run it all.

I refined the search a bit and went with 'Bush failures' and 'Obama failures'. Even that refinement doesn't help Obama all that much.

Bush led with 3. 21 million followed by Obama's 2. 98 million. Should Obama continue at that rate, he will far surpass the Bush number.

I'm surprised at the disparity of the original search though. After all Bush is a much more common word that Obama. I've got a bush in my yard that fails to die when I spray vegetation killer on it.

But then we also need to keep in mind an old Mark Twain maxim, he attributed it to Benjamin Disraeli (but that is debatable but not the point) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies, _damned_lies,_and_statistics).

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. "

[Bell Bottom]

Aren't you?


WOW Bellbottom,,, she scares the fuck right out of you, huh. The chick is living in your head,, rent free.

[Dodgeram 440]

With a name like bellbottom I suppose you are a old hippie and marched against the viatnam war. You were right then to do so but maybe you should of layed off of the drugs because you wrong now. You are attacking someone on her principals she is not running for president yet even though she will beat the dope we have in there now. If you did or did not March against the war you should respect the tea party people for standing up for what they believe. If you do not I hope when the republicans get back in power I hope they pass a bill to give all of you socialist a one way ticket to the country of your choice.

[Brushout]

I hate all of our current politicians. DEM and REP. They have lost their way.

Our Republic, yes that's right, we are not a democracy, was founded on limited Government.

If people wanted free health care, oxymoron, then the State should provide it. Not the Federal Government.

[Jpalom 1981]

Yeah. But remember that illegal aliens don't qualify for medicare. And illegal aliens live here in USA and they pay their taxes. If they're illegaly here the government should't accept their taxes in the first place. If they work here, buy here and do they taxes here, they have the right to get back the money they spend through taxes and therefore through health programs.


Exactly why we can never have it here. Look at welfare and medicaid. They will never ever be messed with. The right is trying to hold onto elderly support and the left would never touch welfare.

I favor govt insurance in the form of a self payer. The same way some larger employers do it. The insurance company handles all the logistics involved but the employer pays the health provider. The companies loose money, but it is now a write-off and the loss would only be the difference of what is taken in via the premiums.

If the govt. did this at least some of it is paid for with co-pays and premiums taken from welfare checks. The poorest of the poor would pay nothing but at least their costs are spread amongst everyone.

The problem is that even if some law is passed and the program is economical the left will expand the program to those that should not get it, such as Illegal Aliens.

[Chubbybear]

Of course neither the 1st or 2nd amendment existed when Washington went to war.

[Bbrenham]

Funny thing about Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, they were (and are) deeply opposed by Republicans (aka the "right"). It was Democrats who brought those bills into congress and passed them, despite significant grumblings from the right. In addition, the right would dump these programs faster than girls dump you, if they got the chance. But you're too stupid to realize this so you make one more idiotic claim that is so off base you, were tagged out the moment you started typing.

As for the UK, Stephen Hawking has come out and stated that he wouldn't be alive were it not for the NHS. He certainly wasn't always famous and the NHS certainly did far more to ensure his quality of life and health than he would have enjoyed in the USA. Lets face it, he's far smarter than you. Then again, considering the claims you make that the right brought about Medicare, etc., an amoeba seems to know more than you.The right would love to dump it all but they never will, they would not dare. Once you give something to somebody it hard to take it away and not be hated.

You type four lines of insults for every line of attempted fact. Stephen Hawkins, please, he knows his stuff and I know mine.

Prof Hawking, who has had Lou Gehrig's disease for 40 years, was in Washington to be awarded the America's highest civilian honour, the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

He is lucky to have survived this long. It might be a record! Are you saying he would have died under the current American health system?

So I was out the moment I left the plate but at least I did not miss most of the game stuffin my face at the concession stand insisting you can carry it all it all in a sandwich bag when a big box is required.

[Bbrenham]

Yeah. But remember that illegal aliens don't qualify for medicare. And illegal aliens live here in USA and they pay their taxes. If they're illegaly here the government should't accept their taxes in the first place. If they work here, buy here and do they taxes here, they have the right to get back the money they spend through taxes and therefore through health programs.Please tell me how an illegal alien working under the table as an electrician making $35K/yr pays any taxes.

He has to rent so he has no property taxes. He sends half back to Mexico pumping money into their economy and meanwhile using the ER for everyday medical issues.

Some use somebody else's identity claim 15 dependents so they pay almost nothing on top of the meager amount they already make.

OK, today they dont have access to medicare so we give them access with this healthcare bill? If the left stays in control illegals will have medicare before long.

They will eventually do the same thing they did with the chips program. It was designed to help poor children get health care but they expanded it and expanded it until yes, it it a huge huge cost.

[Bbrenham]

So, one more thing...

Some facts on Ethernet standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_gigabit_Ethernet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_gigabit_Ethernet

Short story, the most common implementations of fiber run at:
1 gig, 2 gig, 4 gig, 8 gig or even 10 gig

Copper also supports 1 gig, 10 gig or 40/100 gig. Trunk 4 NICs together and you get 4 gig for far less than fiber).

Here's an interesting one on Google's servers:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html
Don't see no fiber on this.

Fiber is great in LARGE data centers. In a LARGE company, you can end up with offices EVERYWHERE and not all of them are large. In small deployments (lets say 100 - 200 people), you could purchase some brand new HP DL380 G6 servers (4 NICs onboard) and while your at it, throw in a few extra 4 port PCIe NICs (much faster bus speeds than PCIx). This gives you 12 NICs to play with. Trunk these up into Public and iSCSI interfaces and you get 6 gig of throughput per interface (splitting equally). Connect those to a clustered set of switches and you get a fault tolerance and high throughput for FAR less than fiber. More than enough for 100 - 200 people.

But you seem to "no" it all so I bow to your superior intellect. You are special (ed).First off, my aoplogies to others reading this thread, I just need finish of this lib while he is cornered.

Again, insults flying around as fast the lies and non-facts. The liberal way, create a smokescreen to hide what they are really doing.

Yeah, 15 years ago it was more expensive. Copper prices are through the roof in part by our friends at the EPA. The techniques for making glass cable have come long way in that time and of course the Chinese have perfected it and the prices contunue to drop. Even the Chinese can't do a thing about costs or copper extrusion environment concerns since they are a buyer not a producer.

So go back replace your infracture every 5 years, keep ignoring that the fact that remote offices might have an email server, a few domain controllers and perhaps some storage so don't need 1GBE let alone Fiber. Keep clouding the fact that the whole point to this ridiculous thread is that regulating stifles growth. Everybit of Fiber that I had installed is still in use today. No need for me to spend a million bucks to upgrade to GB. The network is so organized and capacity planned that I just don't need to worry about speed. I will authorize upgrading the workgroup switches when the prices are truly at the bottom. So I make Al Gore smile, I re-used rather than throw away harmful circuit boards. That is only bad part, I hate it when I make him smile.

Also, I guess you never heard of AXT (Alien Cross Talk). This is a big problem with poorly shielded CAT5 cables even on 1GB. So if this becomes an issue you have to pull new cables or provide separate conduit of extra shielding. In order to move to 10GBE you will need Cat6 cables. If I need more bandwidth, I just terminate another pair of fiberstands. Since I am the "no it all", I had enough extra strands installed to last me another 10 years. No need to suckup CPU with all the extra compressing/decompressing and resources dealing with 4, 9 or 12 NICs. Two switch ports instead of 8 or 12 and since Fiber is not subjected to interference like CAT5 and CAT5E cables I can run it anywhere. Cat5 should be routed away from flouresent lights thus creating longer cable runs and higher costs.

http://www.Siemon.com/us/learning/alien-crosstalk-guide. Asp

The bestway to clear a smoke screen is fresh air not the hot air bellbutthead produces.

Designing Cable Networks

I guess this is too big a topic for a overview! But we'll pass along some hints to make life easier. First and foremost, visit the work site and check it out thoroughly. Know the "standards" but use common sense in designing the installation. Don't cut corners which may affect performance or reliability. Consider what are the possible problems and work around or prevent them. There ain't no substitute for common sense here!

Fiber's extra distance capability makes it possible to do things not possible with copper wire. For example, you can install all the electronics for a network in one communications closet for a building and run straight to the desktop with fiber. With copper, you can only go about 90 meters (less than 300 feet), so you need to keep the electronics close to the desk. With fiber, you only need passive patch panels locally to allow for moves. Upgrades are easy, since the fiber is only loafing at today's network speed!

Is Copper Really Cheaper Than Fiber?

When it comes to costs, fiber optics is always assumed to be much more expensive than copper cabling. Whatever you look at. Cable, terminations or networking electronics. Fiber costs more, although as copper gets faster (e. G. Cat 6) it gets more expensive, almost as much as fiber. So isn't it obvious that fiber networks are more expensive than copper? Maybe not! There is more to consider in making the decision.

Why Use Fiber?

If fiber is more expensive, why have all the telephone networks been converted to fiber? And why are all the CATV systems converting to fiber too? Are their networks that different? Is there something they know we don't? Telcos use fiber to connect all their central offices and long distance switches because it has thousands of times the bandwidth of copper wire and can carry signals hundreds of times further before needing a repeater. The CATV companies use fiber because it give them greater reliability and the opportunity to offer new services, like phone service and Internet connections. Both telcos and CATV operators use fiber for economic reasons, but their cost justification requires adopting new network architectures to take advantage of fiber's strengths. A properly designed premises cabling network can also be less expensive when done in fiber instead of copper. There are several good examples of fiber being less expensive, so lets examine them.

Long Cable Runs

Most networks are designed around structured cabling installed per EIA/TIA 568 standards. This standard calls for 90 meters (295 feet) of permanently installed unshielded twisted pair (UTP) cable and 10 meters (33 feet) of patchcords. But suppose you need to connect two buildings or more? The distance often exceeds the 90 meters by the time you include the runs between the buildings plus what you need inside each building. By the time you buy special aerial or underground waterproof copper cable and repeaters, you will usually spend more than if you bought some outside plant fiber optic cable and a couple of inexpensive media converters. It's guaranteed cheaper if you go more than two links (180 meters.)

Centralized Fiber LANs

When most contractors and end users look at fiber optics versus Cat 5e cabling for a LAN, they compare the same old copper LAN with fiber directly replacing the copper links. The fiber optic cable is a bit more expensive than Cat 5e and terminations are a little more too, but the big difference is the electronics which are $200 or more per link extra for fiber. However, the real difference comes if you use a centralized fiber optic network. Shown on the right of the diagram above. Since fiber does not have the 90 meter distance limitation of UTP cable, you can place all electronics in one location in or near the computer room. The telecom closet is only used for passive connection of backbone fiber optic cables, so no power, UPS, ground or air conditioning is needed. These auxiliary services, necessary with Cat 5 hubs, cost a tremendous amount of money in each closet. In addition, having all the fiber optic hubs in one location means better utilization of the hardware, with fewer unused ports. Since ports in modular hubs must be added in modules of 8 or 16, it's not uncommon with a hub in a telecom closet to have many of the ports in a module empty. With a centralized fiber system, you can add modules more efficiently as you are supporting many more desktop locations but need never have more than a one module with open ports.

High Speed Networking

It was over a year after Gigabit Ethernet (GbE) became available on fiber optics that it finally become available on Cat 5e. It took another couple of years before GbE on copper became significantly less expensive. In order to get GbE to work over Cat 5e, the electronics must be very complicated, and consequently as expensive as fiber. A newer version is in the wings, awaiting a Cat 6 standard, but that means the version running over Cat 5e will be obsolete before it even gets started!

Bottom Line

So when it comes to costs, looking at the cabling component costs may not be a good way to analyze total network costs. Consider the total system and you may find fiber looks a lot more attractive.

Obama is a mulatto, muslim, foriegn born, dis-honest, Rev. Wright lover, capitalism hater, social facist and a very sinister policitian. All you loser libs, your days are numbered but the harm this man has and will do to our country will take generations to overcome. Jimmy Carter is still smiling because he knows that already, Obama is worse than him.

[Bbrenham]

I hate all of our current politicians. DEM and REP. They have lost their way.

Our Republic, yes that's right, we are not a democracy, was founded on limited Government.

If people wanted free health care, oxymoron, then the State should provide it. Not the Federal Government.How is that state run health plan going in MA? Last year, my out of work brother who still has to pay $2,500/yr for himself needed to have a fish hook removed from his face. He should have been looking for a job, but he is a lib and wants to use 100% of his unemployment bene's. He found out that he had not met the $1,200 deductable.

Total cost for fishhook removal $3600
Getting to see a lib on the hook for it, priceless.

Somehow, even with all this money coming in, the program is still a billion dollars in debt.

My inlaws, who are in thier 60's and both have some sigfiicant health issues purchased BCBS for $2,100.00 with much smaller deductables. They purchased this on thier own without employer help. His plan from the employer was more expensive and refused to cover his wife.

The problem was wrong proceedure was billed making it appear that she would be subject to a host of complications. BCBS was the only company that went and looked at the billing code and asked her about it, gained permission to pull medical records and signed them up.

[LordBlackAdder]

Barack Obama held a press conference yesterday to tell Americans that he had finally decided to stop blaming President Bush and would actually honour him.

It appears some of Obama’s advisers had just returned from Haiti and witnessed first hand the destruction that took place with the earthquake last month. They also flew over the geological rift in the earth’s crust responsible for the earthquake.

So when they debriefed Obama he decided that from now on, the rift would be called, “Bush’s Fault!”

[LordBlackAdder]

If you visit Kenya and come from one of the neighbouring nations you may see a sign like this:

BTW EXIT 56 along I-80 in People's Republic of Illinois has a sign similar in nature stating "President Reagan's Birthplace Next Exit"

[LordBlackAdder]

Arab ambassador discovers bride is bearded and cross-eyed behind veil

An Arab ambassador has called off his wedding after discovering his wife-to-be who wears a face-covering veil is bearded and cross-eyed.

The envoy had only met the woman a few times, during which she had hidden her face behind a niqab, the Gulf News reported.

After the marriage contract was signed, the ambassador attempted to kiss his bride-to-be. It was only then that he discovered her facial hair and eyes.

The ambassador told an Islamic Sharia court in the United Arab Emirates he was tricked into the marriage as the woman’s mother had shown his own mother pictures of her sister instead of his bride-to-be.

He sued for the contract to be annulled and also demanded the woman pay him 500,000 dirhams (£85,000) for clothes, jewelry and other gifts he had bought for her.

The court annulled the contract but rejected the ambassador’s demand for compensation.

The report did not identify the ambassador.

[LordBlackAdder]

This was forwarded to me:

Dear Naive Republican,

Many of you have been asking, "Where are the jobs?" But what you fail to realize is no one needs a job when the federal government takes care of you.

A few years ago when Republicans were in control of Congress, we all needed a job, because the government was not trying to control all aspects of your personal and professional life.

But don't worry! Democrats are in control now, and we are making everything better. Want to know how? We are creating a dependence on the government and we are succeeding - just look at how great things are one year after Democrats passed the ultra-successful stimulus bill.

Now nearly 1 in 10 people don't have a job, but we're not concerned, why else would we have ignored them for over a year after we passed our successful stimulus bill.

Our stimulus plan has been so successful that we are using taxpayer money to fly Democrats all around the country today to make sure people know just how successful we have been. We have even been able to schedule these meetings during the day since so many people have free time on their hands.

Democrats continue to save this country through tax hikes and government bailouts. It worked during the Carter Administration and it is working better than ever now.

Please forward this message to all of your unemployed friends and let them know how the Democratic Party is working for Americans.

Sincerely,
Nancy
"Nancy Pelosi"

[Bbrenham]

I can't believe I have had it wrong all these years!

I should have been voting democrat!

Why should I work? I could have been on welfare all these years just like my cousin. He always has nice threads and drives a new car.

So its official, I am going lib.

So when do I start getting checks in the mail?

When do I get my bank card? Do I have to fill out any paperwork?

Does Obama really care about me?

How can get more money from the government?

I also found out that illegals can get medicaid and medicare just like everyone else!

I want a better plan! I don't want to be grouped with the illegals, they work too hard!

I need to be grouped with lazy, fat assed people like bigbottom.
OMG, We need national health care!

Barney Frank for President! C'ome on! Who's with me!

[Bbrenham]

So this lah dee dah school district in PA decided to enable the camera's on the IMACs they gave out ot EVERY highschooler!

Filming teenagers without their knowledge. One girl complained that she had it on all the time in her bedroom.

Where is the the in all this? Where is the investigation?

If I had repaired a laptop and gave it back to a 15 yearold girl with the ability to control her camera and watch video. I would be thrown in jail and gang raped.

Even with no child nudity, filming you in your residence with out your knowledge is a very serious privacy offence but yet the the over there is doing nothing, at least not yet.

If it were you or I my friends. They would come in and confiscate our computers as soon as they saw it was reported. We broke a major child porn ring bla bla bla. Nobody got the balls over there to say what this is, a scheme by somebody to record children in their own homes in an attempt to see them naked.

Even if this is not true, should it not be investigated? Should they not check to see if any of this video is being stored or streamed?

I like teachers but education administrators are not my favorite. And this incident is a good example of why.

Oh! Hey! Where is Obama? He jumps in and calls the Cambridge police stupid but no comment here. Mr. Constitutional Professor had no opinion on those kids right to privacy? Why are the feds sitting on their hands when there are potential federal charges here.

They are too busy dickin with journalists that use questionable techniques to gather information. Its ok for NBC to use hidden camera's but not others.

[Bbrenham]

Where is the DA in all this? Where is the investigation?
Sorry for the mis-type ... but just heard FBI has confiscated several computers from the district.

We just have to wait and see if Holder decides man up and prosecute.

Intent is the district's strongest defense but that is what it should be, a defense and not an excuse not to prosecute.

[Wolfgang]

Hey - Free Repubic called. The're missing an idiot.

Unless you missedplaced where you need to be, this site is for sharing ideas and reports on sex. So unless you have a sexual thing for Obama (or maybe it's just a thing about powerful black men that gets you hard), maybe you should go back to reading the Sludge, er Drudge Report.

Wolfe


Sorry for the mis-type ... but just heard FBI has confiscated several computers from the district.

We just have to wait and see if Holder decides man up and prosecute.

Intent is the district's strongest defense but that is what it should be, a defense and not an excuse not to prosecute.

[LordBlackAdder]

American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists
and Obama supporters, et al:

We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has run its course.

Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.

Here is a model separation agreement:

Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.

We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and defending ourselves, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military.

You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell (You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them). Plus you can have: Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin Sheehan, Barbara Streisand, &
Jane Fonda.

We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood ..

You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us... You can have the peaceniks and war protesters.. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.

We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values.. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, Shirley McClain and the Church of Manmade Global Warming. You can also have the U.N.. but we will no longer be paying the bill.

We'll keep the SUVs, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take all the hydrids and Toyota's you can catch.

You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World.

We'll practice trickle down economics and you can give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.

Would you agree to this? In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you which one of us will need the other's help in 15 years.

[Bbrenham]

Hey - Free Repubic called. The're missing an idiot.

Unless you missedplaced where you need to be, this site is for sharing ideas and reports on sex. So unless you have a sexual thing for Obama (or maybe it's just a thing about powerful black men that gets you hard), maybe you should go back to reading the Sludge, er Drudge Report.

WolfeOk, who died and left you in charge shit for brains loser?

Another name caller with no valid point. It is obvious that you are the one that wants to lick Bama's balls.

I never once commented about our socialist foriegn born president's skin color or mine.

Ahh, another lib I smell! Make up a lie as a distraction to take the focus off the issue.

I can do it with out lying.

I have read your posts, doubt any of things you say has happened really ever happened.

I read you slapping around other members for what they write.

Well you are not going to do it to me.

Go back to your regular thread and stay there. If you have issues with this thread then PM the starter and give him your useless grief.

I will post action when it happens, it has been dead. So rather than lie about events like you, I prefer to wait until something actually happens.

So if you can't bring anything meaningful to this blog then I suggest you niether read it nor comment in it.

[Bbrenham]

I left out Minnesota in my previous post. It will become a part of the New Liberal USA. Anyone from BoredLackBladder's old USA is welcome to migrate to the new USA before we seal up the border. Once that happens, we'll sit back and watch the self destruction. Greedy corporations & CEO's stealing the 401K funds from the elderly, bible thumpers pushing for a Christian Republic which outlaws every other religion and institutes Christian law based on the Bible. Clamp down on all the sins. Liquor, sex (unless between a married couple and only for procreation), and gambling are history. Inferior education and programs for the arts and sciences because all the money goes to the military and police. Taxes are so low, there isn't enough money for anything else.

I still find it odd that you are such a proponent of Judeo-Christian values for all of us.

Would Jesus pay for a hooker? Would Jesus not want health care for all, including the poorest of our society? Would Jesus approve of greedy corporations and CEO's? Would Jesus turn his back on the homeless?

If Jesus was alive he would be a long haired, sandal wearing, environment friendly, homeless helping hippie. Amen.No thanks, we wont go where others put their hands in our pockets.

It is widely speculated that Jesus did indeed use prostitutes.

No Jeseus would not let them starve or die he would feed or heal them. He would not create a tax and spend system to fix the problem. He would ask that private parties help in any way they could.

Some of us educated people remember the story about the fish.

"I can feed the people a fish and they will eat for day, I can teach them to fish and they will eat for life" or something like that. Can you say welfare?

Not all of us right wingers are religiuos finactics just like all leftys are not lazy slobs stealing my money.

I was never told by any religious group not to engage in prostitution so not sure who is two-faced here.

Jesus believed in free will not a free ride.

As to your other points ...

Where is the ACLU while children are being photographed at home without permission? NOWHERE ... they are a joke and part of the problem cause they are "enablers".

You can't comment on Mike Moore and others because it is all true. Why don't you look up how much Oprah and Mikey give to charity and get back to us.

THe NRA has not gone too far. Tell me what they have done? Promoting voter fraud and prostitution like ACORN? Since Cops can carry anytime they don't need the NRA and most likely fear the radicals that are part of them and every organization.

When you get gandraped in your own home I am sure you feel different about the NRA protecting your right to protect yourself.

Regulated capitalizm is the Chinese implementation of socialism. Capitlism only works when there are no regulations. The only thing needed is controls for monopolistic activities.

My greedy corporation gave over $2 million to charities. How much did you give Im A Pussy? I suppose that is not enough since they made a couple billion.

The homeless can do what they want. Not proud of how our contry handles Vets. Funny they would rather die on the street then step into a VHA hospital. We will all get that treatment if we get the healthcare crap passed.

Civil rights! Voting rights! All done by JFK (or at least started)...

He and Bobby would be moderate republicans if they were around today ... That is how far the DEMs have slid left.

I think you are a pussy not a dick!

[Bbrenham]

Ima Dick: Sorry Bbrenham but this is the best way to go forward with Mr. Blackadders plan of separating the country. Abraham Lincoln will be turning in his grave. Others hands have always been in our pockets since the dawn of civilization, give or take 8 or 9 years.True, but they used to leave the pants behind. I can handle MY money going to good programs. Paying for some lazy slob to sit on his ass all day because he won't do that low paying job is ridiculous. It took me 20 years to go from $18k to over $100k. I worked hard for it and I don't ike giving it away to losers. I give plenty to charity every year.


"I can feed the people a fish and they will eat for day, I can teach them to fish and they will eat for life" or something like that. Can you say welfare?Thanks for correcting me on the quote, I am no religious finatic. That would not be welfare. Welfare is bring the fish to them everyday so they don't have to off their fat asses to do it themselves. Taking that "poor living wage" would be better than starving. This is enabling them to reep the benefits of working without actually working.


Ima Dick: You are joking, right? A definition of enabler: To supply with the means, knowledge, or opportunity. Explain how they enabled this to happen and how they are a joke. (But first go to their website and read about what they do.) You are totally wrong here.enabler (plural enablers) http://en. Wiktionary.org/wiki/enabler

1. One who helps something to happen.

2. One that enables another to achieve an end, especially one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behaviour (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by helping that individual avoid the consequences of such behavior.

3. One who gives someone else the power to behave in a certain way.

I know what the ACLU does. Just for laughs I went to their lousy website and searched for PA School District Latop CAM scam. Nothing, plenty of stuff regarding restricting police and border controls use of surveilance but nothing on this. They are liberal organization, they clearly would never target a leftwing organization such as a school district.


Ima Dick: Of course. However, the religious right has gained a lot of control over the Republican Party which makes a lot of moderate conservatives none too happy.

Bbrenham: Jesus believed in free will not a free ride.

Ima Dick: Depends on your definition of a free ride.I agree with you on this one. Repubs have an issue with the religiuos right and is hurting them with the moderate voter. A free ride means just what it states. A free ride is what many welfare recpients are getting. They are taking money from folks that have a disability and cannot go to work. If you are physically able to work then take that job no matter what the pay. If we don't stop "enabling" them to stay home and collect a free check then they will never feel the need to work.


Ima Dick: What's true? The original BlackAdder quote was "You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell". He doesn't want them in the same country as him. What is true or untrue about that comment? I did not comment because I thought his comment stupid. I know that Oprah and Mike Moore are altruistic people. Your comment on this I don't understand. Speaking of Oprah, here is a quote from her while filming a documentary about Denmark: "Copenhagen is one of the world's most environmentally conscious cities. A third of the population rides bikes, many with groceries and kids in tow. Homelessness and poverty are extremely low here. If you lose your job, the government continues to pay up to 90 percent of your salary for four years. You're never going to be homeless on the street. "Are you totally nuts! Go see what tthe average dDenamrk citizen pays in taxes.

The list is unreal, if I lived there I simply would not work because everyone else's taxes enables (there is that word again) me to get 90% of my income before I lost work. I would like to see them ride those bikes in the snow. The reason they ride bikes is the taxes leaves them with little money to purchase a vehicle and then if they did. OH BOY. The greeny taxes kick in. A 20K vehicle would cost them upto 5k/year just to pay the green tax on certain vehicles. Add all that to cost of gas, which is ridicuoulsy high for an oil exporting nation. BTW, they are not as green as they claim, check the links.

Oprah, Penn and the rest of the Jollywood libs should do their research before they open their big fat mouths.

http://www.taxindenmark.com/article.31.html

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/oil-still-fuels-the-green-state-of-denmark/article1382028/

Mikey Moore and Oprah.

Oh how they cry for the impovershed! She has total wealth of 2. 5 billion. She gives very little of her own money. Instead she sets up charities, makes her meager donation and then expects all her fans to donate. She makes over 200 million per year, surely she could fund shelters all over the country for the homeless, so why doesn't she? Greed and hypocracy.

Moore is pathetic. He lives the life of a king! He only gives to charities that tie into his agenda and he don't even give much to them.

http://reason.com/archives/2006/04/01/I'm-ok-you're-a-hypocrite


Ima Dick: Lunacy. You won't even find many Republicans that believe that. I'll repeat what I said in my earlier post. After the Great Depression, regulations were put into place to prevent it from happening again, we loosened those regulations over the years and the result is our current economy.OK, so I work in compliance for a financial firm. The budget for compliance is 10% of the companies total budget. Each state has their rules and the feds have theirs. It is now out of control. Some history on the great depression. It was caused by two greedy aholes! Rockerfeller (DemocraT) and J. P Morgan (both). Some rules were needed but look what we have today, whole companies that specialize in making sure your company is compliant with all the SCE and Banking rules. The changes in the SEC alone for this year will be thouands of pages. The rules often directly conflict what IRS states which leads to a lenghthy hearing that yeilds no real answer.

http://www.Questionsquestions.net/docs04/morgan_left.html

Companies have a right to make profits. Drug companies are not my favorite but what if you poured thousands of dollars into a cure for Herpes. You pay for your patent, the drug gets tested and approved by the FDA. You are ready to reep in the profits but then suddenly you are asked to give the drug to needy nations for free. Money out of your pocket, maybe that is ok but what is not OK is that the drugs never get to those who need it, They are sold on the black market for much more than what you could have ever dreamed about selling it for. The drug companies are ticked off because crates of drugs that go to Africa and elsewhere are now located in your favorite Tiajuanna drug store.

Sorry about the pussy comment, it was un-called for. I was hanging with bellbottom to much and he brought me down to his level. I am trying to come back.

[Bbrenham]

So the ACLU filed paperwork to force them to stop the practice even though the school district did this on their own when they got sued.

So children's civil liberties are violated in perhaps the worst way. Spyed on in their homes by their trusted school district.

I suppose supporting non-americans that are suspect in committing terroristic crimes are much more important than a school district watching students undress at home.

So the best they can do is file a claim to have something done that has already been done.

I wonder if this was a poor black school and the white powerful school admins did this what would have occurred.

They would be giving the victims free council and would claim race then sue the pants off the district.

Maybe Acorn can help these school admins get new jobs in human trafficking and prostitution.

http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/Robbinsfinal.pdf

[Bbrenham]

This country makes me sick they send troops to die for what oil lmao, then we take care of people in other countries when we can't even take care of our own people.

Every single person should have access to healthcare you are right places like canada, england etc etc are thriving I even talked to someone from england and she told me that they don't pay for nothing when it comes to healthcare everything comes out of the taxes. And now these dam conservatives are trying to block healthcare and making our president look bad. Then don't get me started on the judicial system LOL sending innocent people to jail please this system is so flawed we as am E. R. I. C. A. N. People should be ashamed to be called that I can't wait 2 more years and I'm out of here!Did she also tell you about the women who was pregnant but had to wait 6 months for an ultra-sound? That equipment is fairly cheap and operators can be trained in just months to use it. So what is the problem? No doctors to read them and no doctors to see people. I work with at 20 Brittish nationals and every single one of them have the same horror stories. So maybe your friend has not had a serious illness or needed a doctor.

My doctor applied to 5 different countries just to get out England. Canada, Denmark, Switzerland and Austria not being any of them.

Canada is a joke. Why don't you ask the poor Muslims that live over there how good their access is? Ask them when they were last able to find jobs.

If it is so bad here, then whey do they line up in droves to come to AMERICA?
If our system is so bad then how come 90% of the medical advances in the past 50 years have come from our broken health system?

The USA is most giving and caring country on the planet and we help countries that need help. America has oppurtunities for people the problem is that many people have decided to not work , not to better themselves or simply live on the street. It is a free country and that is their right, just don't ask me to pay for their food, taxes, health care, apartment, etc. In these 3rd world countries these people have NO CHOICE and NO FUTURE. I think the least we can do is help those that NEED the help and let those that wish to live in poverty ... live in poverty.

So go my friend! Go! Go to any of these wonderful countries. I wonder why you don't? Could it be because all of these places have no jobs to offer or is that they are just not as good here?

Straight from the BBC ... a trusted liberal new source for over a century...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7271029.stm

One hospital manager said: "We are lucky if the applicants attend for interview, and on a number of occasions there have been no applicants to interview on the day."

NHS North East reported more than 42 doctors' vacancies for which they are unable to find ANY COVER.

And another hospital chief said locums "have proved difficult if not impossible to find" in some specialisms, including plastic surgery.

A Department of Health spokesman said: "This problem has been circulating anecdotally for some time.

"We do take it seriously, which is why we asked SHAs to help us understand its extent and nature at the beginning of February.

"It is worth bearing in mind that the NHS employs around 120,000 doctors in England and, whilst some Trusts have reported issues, many haven't.

"There have always been some problems staffing some rotas in shortage specialties."

Ram Moorthy, chairman of the BMA junior doctors committee, said: "The BMA has had reports from junior doctors across the country that rotas are operating below full strength.

"They're being pressured to work extra hours, often unpaid, to fill the gaps, and consultants are also taking on additional workload."

I will stay here and continue to pay for my own health care. It is something you pay for not something the government should give to you. In fact, nothing should be given to you. You work for it and should you be located in such a country where it is impossible then sending food and medical aid for those is simply being human. What kind of animal are you Jayson? Just the type that takes advantage of young poor prostitutes, right? Did you offer to
take them to a doctor or dentist for a check up?

No!??! Why not?

Because you have to pay for it, that is why!!! Well guess what!! I don't want to pay for her, for you, for my lazy ass brother, for my liberal cousin or for somebody that can work and pay for it themselves.

Elders that built this country, I will pay for with all smiles.

[Bbrenham]

Oprah was making a documentary about Denmark because it was recently ranked the happiest country in the world in a recent study. The USA ranked 23rd and Burundi ranked last. The top 5 in order were Denmark. Switzerland. Austria. Iceland. The Bahamas. Notice a pattern here? Four of the five countries are in Europe and have extensive social programs. Do they pay

Higher taxes? Sure they do. But they have health care, a high GDP per capita, and access to education.I do see the pattern here. But first, the GDP/capita is merely an average across the entire population. The US ranks 2nd and Denmark 8th. There are a number of factors that need to be incorporated to determine wealth. Now how to measure happiness, I have no idea but like I said I do see a pattern.

http://hubpages.com/hub/External-Debt

"Number 9 out of the top 10. Denmark. $89, 853 per capita

Despite owing less money per capita than Norway, Denmark does owe a significantly higher amount in relation to Gross Domestic Product, owing 242. 30% of total GDP.

It may be surprising to some Americans, many of whom are of course worried about their countries rising levels of national debt, that their country has not made this list. This is because despite owing more external debt than any other country in the world, standing at just under $13. 8 trillian as of 30th June 2009, their huge population of around 307m equates to a per head figure of $42, 343; equivalent to 95% of GDP. "

The list

1. Monaco. $540, 000 per capita (small population)

2. Ireland. $448, 032 per capita (lib lefty labor party)

3. Switzerland. $174, 526 per capita (Happy Country)

4. United Kingdom. $174, 167 per capita (labor)

5.netherlands. $136, 795 per capita (progresive)

6. Belgium. $126, 202 per capita

7. Norway. $98, 530 per capita

8. Austria. $90, 289 per capita (Happy Country)

9. Denmark. $89, 853 per capita (Happy Country)

10. Hong Kong. $84, 445 per capita (since China, they used to be wealthy)

See the pattern! Go see how folks in Monaco are doing now.

What this means for, those who don't get it, is each person of working age owes about $90K to pay the nations debt while each US working aged person in the US owes about half that.

I think you, IMADICK, do understand economics around that.

They are spending 240% more what they produce (GDP) a recipe for disaster. I must admit you had me facinated by Denmark! I Know why they are happy. 5 weeks of holiday per/yr, its the law! I see now the right has moved back into to control so maybe they can turn it around and have the best of both worlds! Economic success and healthy happy people. They won't do it by going green though.


Wouldn't that make you just like one of the losers you were complaining about? Unemployment benefits are for 4 years in Denmark yet the unemployment rate for January 2010 was 4. 5%.

Hmm. Longer benefits at 90% of income yet their unemployment rate is half of the US. How does that fit into your logic? Maybe these things are not so cut and dry as you think.Yes I would be like the losers I complain about. I would have to work over there for at least a year and pay into the insurance program. They have low unemploment numbers because of how it is counted. They don't include those that have given up looking or have exhausted the benefit. They are now using the same method in the US. So the estimation is that Denmark employment rate is 76% leaving unemployment at 24%. The US real unemployment is at 18%.

http://www.Justlanded. De/english/Denmark/Denmark-Guide/Jobs/Working-conditions

"It is a common mistake to believe that employment rates are proportional to unemployment rates. They are in fact two quite different things. Here is a brief explanation of the differences. "

"The unemployment rate only takes in account people actively looking for a job. In Europe, this normally means that job-seekers are registered at a government's office in order to claim unemployment benefits. "

http://www.Gpn.org/data/denmark.html

I was initially impressed by Denmark's drop in unemployment but then when you dig deeper you see why. Read below, one out of every three working aged persons is employed by the government. This, along with all those "happy" benefits the Danes get has caused them to spend 240% of what Denmark takes in. How fast would you go broke if you make $1000/week and spend $2500/week. It is just a matter of time before it all craters in. The Labor left wants more money from less work. They now have both, less jobs and money.

Young Muslims in all these countries are the last employed and last on the list to see a Doctor. Google for riots in Denmark, you will see not everyone is happy about the situation there.

http://en. Wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Denmark right left right again.

"The large public sector (30% of the entire workforce on a full-time basis) is financed by the world's highest taxes. A value added tax of 25% is levied on the sale of most goods and services (including groceries). The income tax in Denmark ranges from 42. 9% to 63% progressively, levied on 4 out of 10 full-time employees Such high rates mean that 1, 010, 000 Danes before the end of 2008 (44% of all full-time employees) will be paying a marginal income tax of 63% and a combined marginal tax of 70. 9% resulting warnings from organisations such as the OECD. "


As far as Oprah's charitable donations.

At that time (5 years ago) she had given an estimated $303 million. $303 million by 2005, at least an additional $36 million in 2006, $50. 2 million in 2007. That totals to at least $389 million. This doesn't include 2008, 2009, 2010. It's obviously millions more than that by now. I wouldn't surprise me if it totaled a half billion dollars. You call that greed and hypocrisy?ok, no she is not cheap and I commend her on all that. BUT.

At a minimum, over the time period you mention, she made at least $250 mil/year. Add other income and royalties and I bet $350/year is accurate.

So 5 yrs times 350 mil is 1. 7billion on top of the billion she already has in the bank. So not to shabby. About 30%. I was wrong to call her greedy. But she has 2. 7 billion and people are still starving on our streets.


I just don't believe that the superrich, like Oprah, should be getting more Republican tax breaks. Warren Buffett, the #1 or #2 richest man in the world voted for Obama and has said that the rich are not taxed enough. From Wikipedia "Buffett stated that he only paid 19% of his income for 2006 ($48. 1 million) in total federal taxes (due to them being from dividends & capital gains), while his employees paid 33% of theirs, despite making much less money"The fact is the rich already pay 80% of all taxes. The tax code is as bad as this health care bill and should be tossed out as well. I favor a consumption tax for everyone. The same percentage for all with very few exceptions like primary residence and health expenses. Until our deficit is ZERO everyone has to pay more than their share.

BTW, if you are in the 33% tax bracket then that means you earn more than 250k/year. Those are people Obama had set his sights on for more taxes. Not the extemely wealthy people like Buffet, Oprah and even the Bush family.

Avioding taxing the rich more is totally off the table for the Dems and the repibs.


Regarding the pharma industry, the example I sited was that they tried to block the use of generics in African countries because it would cut into their profit. These people live in impoverished countries. Their alternative was just to die.http://www.Bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7414/517

"The breakthrough agreement came after a plea from African nations in the form of a joint statement to negotiators saying that nearly 2. 2 million Africans had died from AIDS and other major diseases since talks became deadlocked on 16 December. "

"Washington had opposed the original deal hammered out in December, fearing that cheap drugs intended for poor countries could be diverted back to developing countries and undermine the drugs industry, even though most countries agree that such a scenario is unlikely. "

This was in 2001 and the WTO agreed about the concern. The beneficiaries all said "no way that will happen".

Meanwhile, all kinds of patent protected drugs like Viagra and others had been on Mexican drug shelves for years.

I am a humanitarian but if the other members of the committee, the so called happy countries, had agreed on the restrictions from day one instead of finally agreeing to the same terms 8 months, later then potentially 2. 2 million lives would have been saved.

You need to be a member to read this article. I signed up just for you!

I do remember all the crap that surrounded all this and at the time I was outraged but once now that I read what came out of it, I was wrong to be outraged. The agreement allowed poor countries that don't have drug mfgrs to directly license a 3rd party, like Brazil, to make the drugs and sell/give them away. This way the country in need can manage the flow of medicine into their country instead of having to beg and plead for it due to theives

Relocating the medicine to Mexico.

The drug companies made no money on the deal. It simply removed them from the manufacturing of the drug so they would not continue to lose money making something and then giving it away.

So all in all good points but I must say before we can ever explore government health care we need to see them fix social security, medicare, the IRS and medicaid, which will bebankrupt in 2015. Then perhaps we can get some consulting from the Danes on how to become one of the happy countries and provide heath care at reasonable costs for all whether it be public option or private enterprise.

[Bbrenham]

So, in regards to happiness, I guess national debt is not that relevant.

And the folks in Monaco? The country with the highest debt per capita?

All I know about Monaco is that it's a very rich country with no income tax and no unemployment. Am I wrong?

Lets see how happy the Danes are when China refuses to lend them anymore money and their taxes go to 90%.

Monaco, I wonder if no income tax may have something to do with why the country is broke.

Immigrant labor, especially from France and Italy, is heavily relied upon because the number of jobs available outnumbers the number of citizens in the labor force . Many affluent Americans, as well as French, Britons, Swiss, Belgians, and other Europeans, live in the principality. They have about 44,000 "workers" the rest are rich people living in a tax haven.

Still they have their issues with stability. It was 22% during a strong world economy. All the money leave the country with the immigrint workers!!

Monaco
Year Unemployment rate Rank Percent Change Date of Information
2003 3.10 % 167 1998
2004 3.10 % 168 0.00 % 1998
2005 22.00 % 155 609.68 % 1999
2006 22.00 % 164 0.00 % 1999
2007 .00 % 2 -100.00 % 2005
2008 .00 % 2 2005
2009 .00 % 2 2005


BTW, the Heritage Foudation, a conservative think tank ranked Denmark as the 9th freest economy in the world, fight behind the US which was ranked #8. (Hong Kong ranked #1)
Wow the Heritage Foundation! Even they are bit too right wing for me at times! Free trade, big whoop! If you don't loosen tariffs on imports they will just tax ours higher. It is really a no win situation. BTW, Obama-jad is going try to impose taxes and eliminate free trade agreements. Lets all hope he fails there.


"Until our deficit is ZERO everyone has to pay more than their share."

How long will that take? (Much longer if we had a Bush in office)

Regarding your response to Jaysun1969, just because you hear horror stories about UK does not mean the system is bad. I believe most British would not want to give up NHS. If you are going to look for horror stories, there are plenty in the US.
he horror stories in this country are those about people without access to basic health care because they lack insurance due to cost or denial for pre-existing conditions. The best medical technology in the world means nothing if you don't have access to it.Obama-jad has already surpassed bush spending
Plenty of horror stories everywhere, just alot more for a county with a much smaller population.

Medicaid and medicare, they are the existing avenues for those who have a legitimate need for assistance. As I stated in my prior posts, a couple in their sixties can get a a BCBS health insurance policy for $2,500/year. That might just be cheaper than I could get BCBS at work! Are you talking about access to FREE HEALTHCARE. Why should it be free? You are not reguired to have insurance to see a doctor. Hospitals wont turn you away if you dont have insurance.

My buddy goes to one of those independent ERs because he is too cheap to buy insurance. They charge him around $150.00 bucks to have his back looked at so he can get some pills. He broke his back in a motorcycle accident.


So we should shut down the soup kitchens and homeless shelters? Would you like to interview them all before lending a helping hand? You were just complaining that Oprah's not doing enough to help the starving people. Maybe she's holding back because she knows the ones that are lazy. As in my previous about Warren Buffet, he gets a considerable tax break. To me he's getting a free ride, but the right doesn't seem to worry about that.I never said that. Those should be privately funded or local government involvement as most of them are now. I am not sure why the superrich need to fund our welfare state. Perhaps if they were taxed less they would give more. I am sure a million dollars goes alot further in a private charity than a government beurocracy.


I think you miss the idea of this. You work. You pay taxes. In return the government provides things. It's not free. The government builds an interstate highway and while driving on it I'm not thinking "Boy look what I'm getting away with, driving 500 miles on smooth asphalt and not having to pay a single toll."Oh I get it, I work and I pay taxes and the government gives me things. How about those that don't pay taxes, like those who dont work or work under the table? Illegals and legals alike! So while it may not be fair that Buffet does not pay more but how fair is it that these folks pay nothing?


You might be surprised to find out how many Americans LEAVE the US to get health care in other countries. They go to China, Mexico, Canada, Israel and many other countries.They leave because the medicines or proceedures are not offered here due to that wonderful beurocracy ... the FDA. I will agree they are in bed with the pharmicutical companies. I wonder what percentage of those going abroad for surgery are plastic... that is where Mexico comes in.

Lets get it straight. Companies in the medical technology sell expensive equipment to hospitals and doctors. Insurance companies are paying for that when their clients have the equipment used on them. Who pays when the un-insured person needs that equipment used on them? The same insurance companies because the hospital jacks up the bill for the insured patient. Doctors do the same thing.

COBRA - Yup, lots of money ... but... it really is the portion your ex-company paid plus whatever you were paying. People forget that many corporations pay 65% of the costs.

In the end you are mixing peoples right to healthcare up with peoples right to insurance. Neither is a right. My parents paid cash when I was growing up. Six kids! The problem is too many want a free ride. If you want insurance, go buy it. If you cant afford it then find a doctor that will work with you. If you break your arm, go to the hospital... they will send you a bill and you can work out payment terms.

[LordBlackAdder]

We take exception to saying that Obama, Reid and Pelosi are spending like drunken sailors. When we were drunken sailors, we never lied about it and we quit spending when we ran out of OUR money.

[LordBlackAdder]

Mortimer Zuckerman is the Editor in Chief of the U S News and World Report and was a supporter of Barack Obama during his run for the Presidency. This is a staggering appraisal of the President's first year in office- coming from someone who supported President Obama.

In a January 20, 2010 editorial, the Editor in Chief of U.S. News & World Report, Mortimer Zuckerman, had this to say:

"Obama's ability to connect with voters is what launched him. But what has surprised me is how he has failed to connect with the voters since he's been in office.

He's had so much overexposure. You have to be selective. He was doing five Sunday shows. How many press conferences? And now people stop listening to him. He's lost his audience. He has not rallied public opinion. He has plunged in the polls more than any other public figure since we've been using polls. He's done everything wrong. Well, not everything, but the major things. I don't consider it a triumph. I consider it a disaster." And that's what his friends are saying about him.

As the boy president occupied the White House on January 20, 2009 it was predictable that his presidency would last a year, at most, because the things he promised and the things he stood for were so uniquely un-American. Looking back over his year in office, any reasonably precocious fourth grader could make a cogent argument in opposition to nearly everything he's done. In fact, his policies have been so extreme and so far outside the mainstream that he was destined to achieve the most spectacular fall from grace of any American president in history. It was easy to see him serving out the final three years of his term as a virtual exile in the White House. afraid to venture out among any but the most rabid partisans. Seeing his most ambitious initiative, healthcare reform, die in the flames of the Massachusetts Massacre, Obama made a hastily-planned "sortie" to Ohio for yet another Bush-bashing, self-aggrandizing stump speech on job creation. It was vintage Obama. full of left wing hyperbole and planted questions from the Kool-Ade drinkers in the hand-picked audience. but there were just two things wrong with it: 1) Almost everything he said was either wrong or an outright lie, and 2) He is so overexposed that no one in the television audience really wanted to see him. Obama Kool-Ade drinkers in the media, and elsewhere, like to describe Obama as a "very bright man, a true intellectual (compared to George W. Bush and Sarah Palin, of course)." If that is the case, why has he demonstrated such a great inability to learn from his failures? The strident words and the in-your-face attitude of his Ohio speech were proof that he has totally misread the meaning of the Scott Brown victory in Massachusetts .

Whatever hopes and dreams he had for his time in the White House, whatever grandiose plans he had for transforming the United States from a constitutional republic with a free market economy into a socialist dictatorship with a centrally planned economy, were all lost on Tuesday, January 19, 2010. one day short of a full year in office. Yet, he appears to have learned nothing from the experience. Comedian George Gobel once asked, rhetorically, "Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?" In the context of 21st century American politics, and assuming that he has any capacity at all for honest self-examination, Obama must be feeling today very much like a pair of brown shoes at a black tie soiree.

When a politically naïve and totally inexperienced young black man, with a glib tongue and an exceptional ability to read words convincingly from a teleprompter, announced that he was ready to serve as President of the United States , liberals and Democrats saw it as a perfect opportunity to expiate whatever white guilt they may have felt. which was apparently considerable among those on the political left. It didn't seem to bother them that, as one pundit has remarked, "every time he walks into a room he is the least experienced and the least qualified man in the room." Nevertheless, his friends in the worldwide socialist movement and the international banking community figured out how to smuggle hundreds of millions of dollars in illegal campaign funds into the country, the black community rallied to his banner, and American liberals and the mainstream media jumped on board the bandwagon. Together, they made it happen for him. But now, just one year later, Obama appears destined to become the unhappiest man in American politics. unhappier than even former Senator John Edwards, who runs a close second, and former president Bill Clinton.

What we do know about Obama is that, since his teen years, he has been mentored by, gravitated toward, and surrounded by the most dangerous sort of America-hating socialists, communists, and Marxists. from Frank Marshall Davis and Saul Alinsky to Weather Underground terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, to Rev. Jeremiah Wright, George Soros, and countless radical left college professors.

What destines Obama for the top spot on the list of unhappiest American politicians. aside from the failure of his economic recovery program, the failure of his radical cap-and-trade proposal, his failed attempt to give labor bosses unprecedented power to intimidate blue collar workers, and his ill-fated attempt at healthcare reform. is the fact that he carries on his shoulders the hopes and aspirations of every black child in America . It is unfortunate that, because he is so far outside the American mainstream, and because he carries so much hatred in his heart for the country he seeks to lead, his failures will be viewed by generations of black children, not as the failure of a black socialist attempting to bring down a constitutional republic, but simply as the failure of a black man. A man can fail in the eyes of his countrymen and still be dearly loved by those closest to him. But in Obama's case, his wife and his two daughters will be there to suffer every agonizing step of his fall along with him. And for the rest of his life, each time he looks into their eyes,and into the eyes of black people everywhere, he will see the crushing disappointment that his ill-fated attempt at national transformation has caused them.

He will be the country's unhappiest man, living the rest of his life knowing that his daughters know that the whole world sees him as a failure. He is simply the wrong man, in the wrong job, in the wrong country, at the wrong time in history."

[LordBlackAdder]

The main reason health care here costs so much is that in most instances the person who receives the care, doees not directly pay for it. when insurance does you have no idea what they pay and as long ias it is covered you are fine with it.

If you need something done here doctors and hospitals in almost every instance will NOT tell you how much it is going to cost you. So you can't shop around and find out how much something will be in order to get the best deal. Can you imageine the folks who regulate such things allowing say auto repair places to get away with that type of behaviour? Around here they have to give you a written estimate and get your approval iof it goes over by more than 10%.

When people leave the US for a procedure in a foreign land they do so because it is less expensive, not because it will be done better. For some reason dentists here will give you a rough idea what thing will cost. I took a girl I have been seeing and become rather fond of to a local dentist, she has very bad teeth, they said it would cost at least $20k to fix them. Most likely more. A bit more cash than I have sitting around in the spare cash drawer. I checked around and discovered that the procedures they knew she would need could be had by dentists in Mexixo just across the border for the $6k range. Quite a difference. since these procedures were all things that have been basicly the same since the 1950s I know they were not having to pay for cutting edge equipment here. Yet the price was 1/3 of what it costs here. I also found a place run on the Pacific coast in Mexico run by ex-pat American dentists whose website claimed you could have expensive dental procedures done there for about half of what it would cost here- and this included airfare for two from a mahor US airport, and a week of recovery time while staying at what appeared to be a rather nice resort they were partnered with. Need to figure out why it costs more here than there! Not had any work done on the young woman in question she is deathly affraid of dentists.

So costs would go down if they got rid of insurance companies for everything except catosstrophic things and had the patient actually pay the doctor for the service provided at the time service was provided. Cutting out the insurance company and, people doing paper work at many stages of the game would cut down on a lot of the expense and drive costs down, plus when you have to pay out of you own pocket you will look for the best value for money that you can find

[Bbrenham]

[QUOTE=Ima Dick]I don't know anybody who has had their COBRA paid in part by the companies they worked for. [QUOTE/]

I think I mistyped or you mis-understood. Some companies pay 65% of your premium. If you have to get on cobra. That is the sum of what your employer had chipped in and what you normally pay. That is why it is expensive and why everyone should know how much your employer chips in.

I agree with almost all your points this time. The issue is choice. I CHOOSE to go to a restaurant and I CHOOSE to pay for health insurance. Some folks CHOOSE to not get a real carreer and work at Wal-Mart. The consequence of that choice is clear. You will be poor and you won't be able to afford health insurance. I paid $200/month when I made $25K. It was a small company and they paid 0%. So I paid $2, 400/month. The same price my inlaws who are in their 60's. I disagree that people cannot get basic health insurance for a reasonable cost. OK, it might not cover a kidney transplant but it gives them access to basic medical care. It is a big chunk of change but I got a part job to help supplement my income. I would rather pay a few bucks more for a meal than $10K more in taxes and not even get a steak out of the deal. As far as paying for cancer treatments, there are plenty of hospitals that won't charge you a dime if you can prove you can't afford it. They will treat you, they will bill you, you pay what you can and everyone else, including insurance companies pays the rest. At least you paid something and that is better than what many others do. COBRA sucks, I won't argue but it is better than nothing which is what preceeded it. It was put in place as law because the unemployed started signing up for medicare and medicaid. If you want a safety net for people that worked and paid taxes their whole life, that is fine with me but I am tired of the non-working leaches that feel they have a right to free health care when I have to pay for it.

[Bbrenham]

The main reason health care here costs so much is that in most instances the person who receives the care, doees not directly pay for it. when insurance does you have no idea what they pay and as long ias it is covered you are fine with it.

If you need something done here doctors and hospitals in almost every instance will NOT tell you how much it is going to cost you. So you can't shop around and find out how much something will be in order to get the best deal. I must say that between my wife and kids we have had at least 4 surguries. One being my Vascectomy. You not a man until you have had lanacain injected into you testicle.

Anyways, for proceedure when we made the arrangements they told me the total cost and how much my insurance covered. Most insurance companies have pre-arranged pricing established with the larger hospital owners (companies that own hundreds of hospitals).

So you are right, it is price fixing at its finest. Maybe they should do it like auto coverage ... give you a check for $15K and say "do ur best pocket the rest". The problem is you can provide evidence that your bumper has been replaced but it might be hard to prove a doctor actually did a proceedure rather than do nothing and split the cash with you.

So that is why the price is fixed, fraud and greed.
Why is the cost so high? I know you know why LB...

It is because of the millions of people who pay NOTHING.

So fine, give us government health care. Everybody pays $5000/year everything covered. Non lazy working people can buy their own and get tax credit of $5000.

We all pay the same, that is about as socialist I will ever get.

[Bbrenham]

I can just believe where you get your so called info let me guess you have to be listening to some conservative like limbaugh or hannity lmao you are so out of touch with the reality of perception that you don't even see whats going on oh and by the way I see escorts not prostitutes have a little respect and my friend yes I am moving out of *$#at country bc of people who think like you what a joke!I see we have a real intellectual here. What the f*** is your point?

I don't listen to Rush.

I don't let anyone do my thinking for me. You libs are the ones destroying the country.

I go to work to work everyday, earn my keep and pay my taxes.

Just what do you think the lazy a-holes that don't work and collect welfare checks contribute to this country? Oh yeah, they contribute to our national debt.

Come on duffus! Tell me how they contribute and make our country better!

You can take your respect and shove it. Please move to another country and take a few welfare losers with you.


I totally agree with you 110 percent this country is broken by who not the dems but the republicans who spent billions and billions on a war for what oil which for what we really do need only because of people like bbrenham who pay for oil to make who the republicans richer hey bbrenham you say we are number 2 in the world right number 1 for giving right? Tell me how come we can't match other countries for speed when it comes to trains huh? How come we don't use our own energy and not oil huh? Because of people like you who represent republicans that is the biggest reason why this country is in dire straits! Oh by the way I am leaving this country it sucks here!No such thing as 110% just like there is no such sense in your rant.

The democratic congress approved all war spending. You are anti-war but I am against being attacked by radicals, foriegn and domestic.

Please tell me where it is written that all the oil companies are run by republicans. If so it must because all the DEMs that have half a brain are "slip and fall" lawyers and did not take the job with the oil company. I also did not know that democrats were prohibited from purchasing Oil company stocks so that the greedy repubilicans can buy them all.

How we use our own energy? Energy is generated. Do you mean why don't we use our own oil and natural gas? If so, two words, Bill Clinton. His executive orders prohibited US companies from drilling just about anywhere. Now we have the Chinese drilling of the east coast while US companies are prohibited from doing so.

Again, please leave, we don't need your type here. Take Obama with you. Go to England and make a doctors appt. Have them check to see if your brain is still in your skull.