View Full Version : Visiting AVN and hooking up
EgoThrasher
01-01-23, 22:54
Hi there gents! First time visiting AVN this year. I was wondering how does one go about approaching the subject of hooking up with any of the models, if at all possible. You just can't straight out ask if they offer any extras. So how does one broach the subject and not come off as creepy? All tips and suggestions greatly appreciated. PM' are always welcome. Thanks for the help, stay safe and hope you all had a Happy New Years!
Hi there gents! First time visiting AVN this year. I was wondering how does one go about approaching the subject of hooking up with any of the models, if at all possible. You just can't straight out ask if they offer any extras. So how does one broach the subject and not come off as creepy? All tips and suggestions greatly appreciated. PM' are always welcome. Thanks for the help, stay safe and hope you all had a Happy New Years!I can't vouch for this but there is a website dedicated to porn stars who hobby on tge side. They are NOT cheap to say the which is why I haven't pulled the trigger. Porn companions. Com you could also try P411.COM. I hope this helps. Good luck. Post details if you score.
I was there during the AVN's several years ago and the strip was flooded with wannabe porn stars some of which had no money and no place to stay.
I was walking the strip after the award show a short Jenna Jameson look alike approaches me and engaged me in conversation.
Asked where I was from, where I was staying etc and then told me her story of her friends ditching her with no money and no place to stay.
She then said if I helped her out she would be very grateful. I didn't tell her about the ladies playing craps at the Mandalay Bay. When they ran out of chips they would flash their tits and guys at the tables would throw $25 chips at them instantly putting them back in play.
Why you are there separate one from the herd and see what she says.
Hi there gents! First time visiting AVN this year. I was wondering how does one go about approaching the subject of hooking up with any of the models, if at all possible. You just can't straight out ask if they offer any extras. So how does one broach the subject and not come off as creepy? All tips and suggestions greatly appreciated. PM' are always welcome. Thanks for the help, stay safe and hope you all had a Happy New Years!
HolyStone1975
01-02-23, 18:16
I can't vouch for this but there is a website dedicated to porn stars who hobby on tge side. They are NOT cheap to say the which is why I haven't pulled the trigger. Porn companions. Com you could also try P411.COM. I hope this helps. Good luck. Post details if you score.If the girl is popular in any way in the industry you can expect to pay anywhere from 1200-1800 an hour. I have reached out to a number of porn stars off of EROS, PD, and other sites over the years and only the girls like Kodi Jett (who is more amateur than porn 'star') can be had for less than 1000. If you recognize their name from Pornhub, or any mainstream media exposure, be prepared to pay a lot.
Hi there gents! First time visiting AVN this year. I was wondering how does one go about approaching the subject of hooking up with any of the models, if at all possible. You just can't straight out ask if they offer any extras. So how does one broach the subject and not come off as creepy? All tips and suggestions greatly appreciated. PM' are always welcome. Thanks for the help, stay safe and hope you all had a Happy New Years!Is it with that word that everyone throws around like a loose word? Is it the in thing? Who cares if you sound or look creepy its the dam Porn awards anyone into porn shouldn't be considered creepy!
Hi there gents! First time visiting AVN this year. I was wondering how does one go about approaching the subject of hooking up with any of the models, if at all possible. You just can't straight out ask if they offer any extras. So how does one broach the subject and not come off as creepy? All tips and suggestions greatly appreciated. PM' are always welcome. Thanks for the help, stay safe and hope you all had a Happy New Years!1) Follow their Twitter account. Some have their own meet and greets. Might get lucky.
https://fan.adultentertainmentexpo.com/talent
2) Take advantage of the free ride and guest list to and from the strip clubs. The stars might not be there but you might find someone, got nothing to lose but time.
3) Keep your Tinder app open, LOL.
1) Follow their Twitter account. Some have their own meet and greets. Might get lucky.
https://fan.adultentertainmentexpo.com/talent
2) Take advantage of the free ride and guest list to and from the strip clubs. The stars might not be there but you might find someone, got nothing to lose but time.
3) Keep your Tinder app open, LOL.I'm a fan turned semi-pro. Might have come across my vids. And I can say one of the biggest advantages you can have is a very recent clean test. Then finding ones who meet gents on the side. Get that mixture with a gentle approach and you have. Pretty good chance.
FrequentFlyer3
01-04-23, 20:16
Just came back from the expo. Great time. Got a pic with my porn star "crush"; Xxlayna Marie. She is just as hot in person as on film. From seeing some of the other stars in person, this is actually rare. You would think they are all hot in person, but when you're up close and personal, they're heavily made up and really don't look as good as when they're on Pornhub. Xxlayna is a cutie. If I could only afford an hour with her.
HolyStone1975
01-04-23, 23:25
Unsure if they are real offers or not, or just people working the pages for them, but I have now had two of the porn stars I follow on OF reach out via IG or SC to me and ask if I would be in town and if I wanted to meet at my hotel. One I have been following for a while and I would be lying if I said I didn't check on airline prices to see if I could get out there to see her.
RealSexyPanda
01-05-23, 01:36
Just came back from the expo. Great time. Got a pic with my porn star "crush"; Xxlayna Marie. She is just as hot in person as on film. From seeing some of the other stars in person, this is actually rare. You would think they are all hot in person, but when you're up close and personal, they're heavily made up and really don't look as good as when they're on Pornhub. Xxlayna is a cutie. If I could only afford an hour with her.Did you buy the week pass or day pass? Considering dropping in for a day to check it out for once.
Not familiar with any of these modern porn "stars" though. All my faves are now milfs or retired.
RumRunner22
01-05-23, 14:30
Unsure if they are real offers or not, or just people working the pages for them, but I have now had two of the porn stars I follow on OF reach out via IG or SC to me and ask if I would be in town and if I wanted to meet at my hotel. One I have been following for a while and I would be lying if I said I didn't check on airline prices to see if I could get out there to see her.I would be real careful. I was dumb enough to think I was setting up a meetup with a pornstar and got burned. That was not through OF and I don't doubt some meetups with pornstars are legit. Just be real careful, some scammers are good at separating you from your money.
PriceIsRight39
01-05-23, 14:35
Did you buy the week pass or day pass? Considering dropping in for a day to check it out for once.
Not familiar with any of these modern porn "stars" though. All my faves are now milfs or retired.LOL! I was hooking up with one that's in the game. She's a 5-1/2 to a six fresh out of of the shower. Most porn " babes" are 5-7's. The 9's and 10's do IG get a following and are on big boats. Porn is for the low end broke girls! Porhub makes um look way better. Don't be too envious of the porn dudes. At the end of the day, they are banging girls that are not very hot. The set can smell like pop and the girls are dumb as fu*k!! They forget to enema before an anal scene LOL cause they updated the sanpchat! LOL. The director ain't stopping. Get the extra wipes. It's all fake, but the stds are real. Test or not. You simply cannot assure 100% clean with all that dickin going down. They don't test everyday. It's a gross industry and they all think it's the road to riches. LOL most are broke after a early success (fresh meat makes money) 80-80% of the girls have some form of abuse in their past! I have first hand knowledge!! It's sad actually. I do t get off on porn anymore. It's all the same.
Enjoy AVN. I know some ladies down there RN. 6's all of um!
Did you buy the week pass or day pass? Considering dropping in for a day to check it out for once.
Not familiar with any of these modern porn "stars" though. All my faves are now milfs or retired.Yup, I've been going to AVN for almost 15 years now. I haven't been since 2019 and they are all new, and YOUNG girls. Most could be my daughter's age if I had a kid.
I finished the Expo within hour to hour and half. There was no lines and wasn't crowded when I got in. Got to talk to Lisa Ann and spoke a bit about fantasy football.
Sure do miss Ron Jeremy he loved the limelight and was funny to talk to. Go grab some dinner and head down to the party at 10 pm. Hope you guys are having a good time.
PriceIsRight39
01-06-23, 18:34
Is it with that word that everyone throws around like a loose word? Is it the in thing? Who cares if you sound or look creepy its the dam Porn awards anyone into porn shouldn't be considered creepy!Ummmmm, I don't know about that. I've know porn people and I was hooked on that shot for years. Not many well adjusted folks in porn except the smart ones at the top. They make money off the hopes and dreams of the many. The girls are delusional and dumb mostly. It's how they disconnect sex form emotion so easily and get railed 3 times a day. Date a porn girl (I did) and you'll see. The sex is actually not super exciting. (mine wanted slow and sensual as she get hammered all day) and I'm the end she's incapable of a LTR. Despite what they say. Listen how porn people always lead with a rationalization of it. " it's just like work, it's not what you think, The sex is meaningless. A normal well adjusted woman will not have sex with low value men. Even for money. Her biology won't go for it. Remember, the dudes aren't provider males. Just lucky enough to get in the biz. Most are on something to preform too!
I felt sorry for my GF. She really though it was the road to riches. She can't get out now. No way she'll work a job. Many become escorts. The managers (pimps really) and the producers make all the money. Most last less than a year.
Just one man's experience.
Don't fall.
In love with a porn girl. Also, most are not good looking off camera and are crazy as heck!!
FrequentFlyer3
01-07-23, 08:44
Ummmmm, I don't know about that. I've know porn people and I was hooked on that shot for years. Not many well adjusted folks in porn except the smart ones at the top. They make money off the hopes and dreams of the many. The girls are delusional and dumb mostly. It's how they disconnect sex form emotion so easily and get railed 3 times a day. Date a porn girl (I did) and you'll see. The sex is actually not super exciting. (mine wanted slow and sensual as she get hammered all day) and I'm the end she's incapable of a LTR. Despite what they say. Listen how porn people always lead with a rationalization of it. " it's just like work, it's not what you think, The sex is meaningless. A normal well adjusted woman will not have sex with low value men. Even for money. Her biology won't go for it. Remember, the dudes aren't provider males. Just lucky enough to get in the biz. Most are on something to preform too!
I felt sorry for my GF. She really though it was the road to riches. She can't get out now. No way she'll work a job. Many become escorts. The managers (pimps really) and the producers make all the money. Most last less than a year.
Just one man's experience.
Don't fall.
In love with a porn girl. Also, most are not good looking off camera and are crazy as heck!!Just from my 2 hrs walking around there, I can attest to most of those girls being bat-shit crazy. You can tell they all have some sort of daddy issues. It is sad.
Eva Yi wants $800 for a bg creampie.
Ran across this site to book porn girls several months ago, wondering if anyone here has used it, or if it's even legit. I did attempt to book one from there couple times just to see the process. Both times a booker / assistant emailed the next day asking what time and day would I like. I respond and then the responses stop. Any one here have any experiences with it.
https://porncompanions.com/
PriceIsRight39
01-07-23, 17:29
Just from my 2 hrs walking around there, I can attest to most of those girls being bat-shit crazy. You can tell they all have some sort of daddy issues. It is sad.Yep!! The only ones that will lower themselves to doing porn. The one I am / was dating is there now. And she's over the moon at the possibilities of one day being on the red carpet at AVN. Cock sucker of the year!! LOL. Dreams of being a headline girl for bang bros. I don't have the heart to tell her that most will not make the cut and the average career is 9 months. She is convinced she'll never work again after porn. 22 yo!! Going to live to 80 (maybe not is a hard life!!) LOL.
http://www.kimsaigonvip.com/
Tight bodied, open menu.
I feel obligated to get a visiting girl during AVN week, if I can afford them (they ain't cheap).
How much was it and how much of her menu did you partake of?
http://www.kimsaigonvip.com/
Tight bodied, open menu.
I feel obligated to get a visiting girl during AVN week, if I can afford them (they ain't cheap).
How much was it and how much of her menu did you partake of?$1 k / hr. Partook in most of the allowed list on her website. I splurged $ on this one.
Booked thru her website with direct contact prior. Wasn't a casino floor hookup.
TheRogue099
01-07-24, 12:13
Ok Gents, I'll be in your neck of the woods for AVN later this month.
Have a scenario that needs to be played out.
Looking for a respectful, fun, out going, gentleman who has an incall location.
Feel free to message me for further details.
Ace McNasty
01-08-24, 11:57
Ok Gents, I'll be in your neck of the woods for AVN later this month.
Looking for a respectful, fun, out going, gentleman who has an incall location.A male escort who has incall?
Not judging your alternative lifestyle but this website is the WRONG place to look for gay hook ups.
The AVN expo this month mostly features female porn stars but you will prob find a few male talents there as well. I have tickets for the Friday and Saturday shows. I will look for you in the booths where all the male porn stars and man-hoes are hanging out.
TheRogue099
01-08-24, 21:26
A male escort who has incall?
Not judging your alternative lifestyle but this website is the WRONG place to look for gay hook ups.
The AVN expo this month mostly features female porn stars but you will prob find a few male talents there as well. I have tickets for the Friday and Saturday shows. I will look for you in the booths where all the male porn stars and man-hoes are hanging out.Roflmao. Didn't think it would come off that way. I am not gay, I am not an escort nor a man hoe. I have no interest in hooking up with anyone. But, I have a lady that does.
Gosh, if you done a little research on me you'd know what's up.
Funny stuff rite der.
I'll be in Vegas (Jan 21 to 27) for the SHOT show at Venetian and was curious what the deal is with AVN as I've never been in town the same time that that is going on.
Are there any spots with decent female activity? I assume most will be in Resorts World, but was just curious what some of the hot spots will be?
Thanks all.
You wrote: "Looking for a respectful, fun, out going, gentleman who has an incall location. ".
Roflmao. Didn't think it would come off that way. I am not gay, I am not an escort nor a man hoe. I have no interest in hooking up with anyone. But, I have a lady that does.
Gosh, if you done a little research on me you'd know what's up.
Funny stuff rite der.
FruitNinja
01-10-24, 07:58
Roflmao. Didn't think it would come off that way. I am not gay, I am not an escort nor a man hoe. I have no interest in hooking up with anyone. But, I have a lady that does.
Gosh, if you done a little research on me you'd know what's up.
Funny stuff rite der.Been more specific in what you were asking for. This is exactly how I took it as well. And TBH most guys on here are researching girls not other members. LOL.
Ok Gents, I'll be in your neck of the woods for AVN later this month.
Have a scenario that needs to be played out.
Looking for a respectful, fun, out going, gentleman who has an incall location.
Feel free to message me for further details.
Roflmao. Didn't think it would come off that way. I am not gay, I am not an escort nor a man hoe. I have no interest in hooking up with anyone. But, I have a lady that does.
That wouldn't mind playing gigolo for a night. What kind of scenario is she / you looking for? What's your desired age range?
That wouldn't mind playing gigolo for a night. What kind of scenario is she / you looking for? What's your desired age range?Maybe the two of you can take this offline and spare us the details.
TheRogue099
01-11-24, 02:02
Been more specific in what you were asking for. This is exactly how I took it as well. And TBH most guys on here are researching girls not other members. LOL.LOL. Well, when someone leaves a crucial detail out when quoting my post and just piecemeals it, everyone's mind starts to wander up the wrong trail.
Do I want to get specific? Not on the post. Thanks.
Ace McNasty
01-12-24, 14:25
Probably some gents here
That wouldn't mind playing gigolo for a night. Reminded me of one of my fav movies LOL. The best client was the young blonde who had Tourette's Syndrome ha ha ha!
Ace McNasty
01-12-24, 14:26
The AVN adult expo is just like any other professional conference for engineers, doctors, or lawyers. Except you got tons of nearly naked girls walking around and posing for pictures LOL.
They will search you at the entrance. No weapons or professional expensive cameras allowed. All my cameras are old hand held Canon Dig cams, a few are over 10 years old. Been using them faithfully for the last decade of mongering and I don't really see the need to buy a $5000 Nikon DSLR. They let me in last year with my cheapo cameras.
Besides, if you have a latest gen iPhone, the lenses are so advanced that you really don't need a huge ass camera with a 2 foot telephoto lens.
See you guys at the 2024 AVN. I be the one taking pics of hot asses with my Canon. Some pics from last year's.
Blackcookie
01-17-24, 23:04
Will be in town that weekend. Thinking of check out the show on Sat. Just want to see anyone will let me join up. Never been. Just don't want to go by myself. PM me. Thanks.
IndyStar88
01-25-24, 03:16
Everyone has been quiet.
Anyone been to Resorts?
Has there been any sightings of "actresses"?
Is there more activity on the strip? In the casinos?
Everyone has been quiet.
Anyone been to Resorts?
Has there been any sightings of "actresses"?
Is there more activity on the strip? In the casinos?I stopped by Resorts last night (1/23) and the casino was pretty dead. There were some cute girls in the casino bar, but nothing that screamed "I'm a porn star. " I am going again tomorrow as I have an appt at the spa, so I am going to see if I run into any of them in the hotel.
Ace McNasty
01-29-24, 12:02
Crowded asf and both guys and chicks packed like sardines. More attendees this year compared to last. That's because every girl out there who calls herself a digital creator is now by default also a porn star LOL.
Here are the hottest hoes at the AVN. Enjoy LOL.
Ace McNasty
01-29-24, 12:03
Carmella has weird problems with being too careful. Tried to communicate twice and she ended communications. Years ago she had a snap chat or maybe it was IG stories. I message, she asks where I got her account, I say privatedelights, and then she doesn't respond anymore. And now more recently, same exact thing. So advice to anyone contacting this one, have a backup plan incase communication issues happen.She attended the AVN but I didn't bump into her. Too bad because apparently she was walking around in a skin tight white body suit! I bet that caused a few heart attacks.
She a great kisser tho. Love performing CPR and mouf to mouf resuscitation on her during my dates LOL.
TheRogue099
12-15-24, 16:05
Almost around the corner.
I know a few that would be available for dinner dates.
Almost around the corner.
I know a few that would be available for dinner dates.And those would be who?
ItsNotNothing2
12-16-24, 20:47
I would be a very, verrrrrry poor man. God speed and I pray for any of you to come out with some W's.
WhiteSun777
12-18-24, 00:38
And those would be who?Take your pick, most are definitely willing or already do escort / sugar baby on the side.
Not cheap for sure, book directly to avoid agent's fee. Still going to run you depends on who it is.
Bonus. You know they're (usually) safe since they get tested constantly. Bare is definitely on the table and you already know what their special talents are. .
https://fan.adultentertainmentexpo.com/stars
HolyStone1975
12-18-24, 16:05
Take your pick, most are definitely willing or already do escort / sugar baby on the side.
Not cheap for sure, book directly to avoid agent's fee. Still going to run you depends on who it is.
Bonus. You know they're (usually) safe since they get tested constantly. Bare is definitely on the table and you already know what their special talents are. .
https://fan.adultentertainmentexpo.com/starsOver the years, going back something like 15-17 years I have been out there during CES or the AVN a few times, never intentionally, and hooked up with a few porn stars. A few I had no idea were until they told me later, some I would see out and know who they were and take my shot. First one was Mia Rose. Most recent was right before the pandemic and ended up spending an hour or so with Megan Rain, before she had all her work done.
I don't think many do it anymore, because they can make more money from OF now, but a number of the escorts used to dance at the Vegas clubs often and you could often meet them there and talk them in to take out for the right price. These days it is not cheap to get a porn star but every once in a while you used to be able to find a decent priced one.
JustJunk9090
12-29-24, 16:34
Will be there during these events next month.
Would love to know what the hotspots are for meeting / potentially hooking up with some of these porn stars.
Will be there during these events next month.
Would love to know what the hotspots are for meeting / potentially hooking up with some of these porn stars.Have you tried reading the thread?
If you got the bravado to ask a girl at the expo then go for it, high odds you will get turned down because they are too busy if they are popular and are going to the awards show. You could try one of the AVN parties that you pay to get in.
Otherwise your best bet is to look for ads in Vegas or an agency that caters to supply pornstars.
WhiteSun777
12-31-24, 14:56
Have you tried reading the thread?
If you got the bravado to ask a girl at the expo then go for it, high odds you will get turned down because they are too busy if they are popular and are going to the awards show. You could try one of the AVN parties that you pay to get in.
Otherwise your best bet is to look for ads in Vegas or an agency that caters to supply pornstars.Yes it'll be tough to ask at the show as it gets hectic for the talents but definitely not impossible.
I suggest (if you've got the dough) is to book a room at Virgin where AVN will take place, it's just a lot easier to ask the talent to go back to your room since most will be staying there.
Check the site and see who's going to be there, then start reaching out to them now to get an idea how much it'll run you.
Avoid the AVN parties unless you're a big shot and you're getting your own table.
Use agency as last resort as prices are insane!
It's definitely doable, budget at least 5 k for this (room is going to run you a few k there).
Good luck!
Ace McNasty
01-02-25, 13:20
Will be there during these events next month.
Would love to know what the hotspots are for meeting / potentially hooking up with some of these porn stars.Would be next to impossible to book a girl on the spur of the moment. If you want to be with a porngirl during the AVN you have to prepare weeks or months in advance, then schedule your sesh during the adult expo week. And you have to line up alternates and back ups. Experienced mongers need lots of time to pass screening. So how is a newbie asking cold questions here going to pass verification in the 2-3 days of the AVN? Just silly fantasies.
Two years ago I scheduled a short blonde girl but she had a medical emergency and was unable to attend. Fortunately my 2nd choice Nadia attended and the date went through. Good luck, but we both know nothing will happen. Folks just like to ask questions here but for every 100 P.S. Inquiries, it would be a miracle if one poster actually followed through.
JustJunk9090
01-02-25, 19:18
Would be next to impossible to book a girl on the spur of the moment. If you want to be with a porngirl during the AVN you have to prepare weeks or months in advance, then schedule your sesh during the adult expo week. And you have to line up alternates and back ups. Experienced mongers need lots of time to pass screening. So how is a newbie asking cold questions here going to pass verification in the 2-3 days of the AVN? Just silly fantasies.
Two years ago I scheduled a short blonde girl but she had a medical emergency and was unable to attend. Fortunately my 2nd choice Nadia attended and the date went through. Good luck, but we both know nothing will happen. Folks just like to ask questions here but for every 100 P.S. Inquiries, it would be a miracle if one poster actually followed through.Well how's a newbie going to learn?
By reading and asking on the forum. (Kinda the point of this entire thing).
Thanks for the info though, I'll keep that in mind for my next trip.
Unfortunately this was a relatively last minute thing, so next time I'll be better prepared.
Respect to the elders (veteran mongers like yourself).
TheRogue099
01-05-25, 03:10
Almost around the corner.
I know a few that would be available for dinner dates.
And those would be who?Helena Price. However, if you inquire on her socials, you just struck out.
Helena Price. However, if you inquire on her socials, you just struck out.If you have any tips on how to meet her please send me a DM. I am new to this hobby and don't want to flood the channel with questions out of respect.
WhiteSun777
01-13-25, 22:43
See article below.
https://apagunion.com/2025/01/09/apag-supports-culinary-workers-on-strike-at-avn-las-vegas-host-hotel/
Some performers are already pulling out (no pun intended).
WhiteSun777
01-21-25, 22:28
See article below.
https://apagunion.com/2025/01/09/apag-supports-culinary-workers-on-strike-at-avn-las-vegas-host-hotel/
Some performers are already pulling out (no pun intended).https://www.casino.org/vitalvegas/culinary-strike-to-end-at-virgin-just-in-time-for-porn-convention/
It's over but damage is already done. Definitely less exhibitors and talents this year.
Ace McNasty
01-24-25, 12:02
Did you guys visit any particular booths? The girls you masturbate to on PornHub are often there signing autographs and posing for selfies. Max out your AVN visit!
WhiteSun777
02-03-25, 14:31
Did you guys visit any particular booths? The girls you masturbate to on PornHub are often there signing autographs and posing for selfies. Max out your AVN visit!What a clusterfuck! Virgin suck and not in a good way. The strike didn't help, Vixen has their own security line that takes forever to get in. (hotel / event) security is going around harassing all the performers on their outfits, telling one performer she can't show underboob like WTF? It's an adult event, everyone's over 18. And AVN staff just letting it happen. I thought hosting at Resorts World last year was bad but Virgin is THE WORST! This isn't the old Hard Rock anymore.
Speaking of Hard Rock, I've heard AVN will definitely host their future shows there (When the new Hard Rock Casino is complete in 2027) Fingers crossed!
Ace McNasty
03-04-25, 16:08
What a clusterfuck! Virgin suck and not in a good way. The strike didn't help, Vixen has their own security line that takes forever to get in. (hotel / event) security is going around harassing all the performers on their outfits, telling one performer she can't show underboob like WTF? It's an adult event, everyone's over 18. And AVN staff just letting it happen. I thought hosting at Resorts World last year was bad but Virgin is THE WORST! This isn't the old Hard Rock anymore.
Speaking of Hard Rock, I've heard AVN will definitely host their future shows there (When the new Hard Rock Casino is complete in 2027) Fingers crossed!Yeah this year's AVN vibe sucked. The venue sucked. The service workers strike sucked. The best AVN was truly in 2022 and 2023. I got to pose and take selfies with my fav pornstars.
Hopefully next year they go back to the LV Convention Center instead of the Virgin. Worst choice ever!
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