View Full Version : The Morality of Prostitution
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Yogesh, there are very clear guidelines and processes for getting upgraded to senior membership, all related to the core purpose of this forum, and good (IMHO) reasons for such classifications which Jackson has explained quite clearly. Sorry if the delay frustrates you, but that's not my call. Take it up with him. This section is a very small side-effect of the overall board.
My frustration is based on my inbox being cluttered with a large number of PMs which contained only assertions and obsfucations and which ignored repeated requests and attempts to discuss such assertions either by pretending not to understand or see them. I can frankly listen to a tape of birds chirping and get far more actual interaction (not to mention better content) which is why I classified such back and forth with you as a waste of my time.
One of Webster's definitions of opinion is "a notion or conviction founded on probable evidence; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge; settled judgment in regard to any point of knowledge or action." Asking and discussing what "probable evidence" an opinion is based on is a normal mode of discussion and of forming and adjusting opinion.
Based on our large number of PMs, I can only conclude that to you, "opinion" means repetitious assertion of the same thing without any sense of reasoning or support, and to completely ignore frequent requests for you to provide support for such assertions, and, oh yes, adopting a pious tone of superiority with the person you're addressing. I basically concluded you were not expressing opinions, you were expressing beliefs.
My viewpoint can be contradicted by a four-year-old. That's hardly a big deal. It doesn't mean I see any value in having an adult discussion with said child. My opinions get contradicted here all the time and I keep going back and forth with people I disagree with (and enjoying it) BECAUSE THERE ACTUALLY IS A BACK AND FORTH that progresses the discussion in some way. There was none of that whatsoever in our PMs -- there was you saying that this or that was the absolute uncontradictable truth, and ignoring any request for you to support such an opinion in any way.
I can give an OPINION that you could build a suspension bridge out of lunch meat and that it could handle 50,000 cars a day but unless I could provide some sort of support for such an assertion it's not really worth talking about.
You are obviously free to give your opinions at any time. Expecting me to consider and interact with them, however, means I have the right to expect the same. I've had enough because I saw absolutely none of that from you, which meant I was wasting my time. If I want to read repetitious spam I can go check my email.
"Besides, the way CBGB Connisur tells it, Janitors, and bus drivers who are only average looking date hot women "DownUnder" why would there be any need for a sex worker?"
ROTHLMAO! Thanks, Pokey, that's hilarious.
I'm curious about where you found the David Sheehan review on Moore's movie (I found one done by Paul and not David Sheehan) even though I don't completely understand how that relates to sex work.
Just in time for Halloween, kids-sized pimp and ho costumes, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=299&ncid=299&e=8&u=/koco/20040902/lo_koco/2355754. Isn't this a bit of an ethical stretch?
Ohmigod, Oosikman, that's priceless, even it is the kind of silly manufactured TV "News" non-story we've all come to know and love. Man, they're seriously bored in Oklahoma, aren't they?
My favorite quote, "McNeel said she would never let her 2-year-old child dress up like a prostitute or a pimp."
Well, that settles it!
(Two great laughs in one day -- thanks guys!)
If Yogesh, obviously an Islamic fundamentalist, is ignored, he will go away.
JZ, my mistake it is Paul Sheehan, of the Sydney morning Herald.
It's doesn't really relate to sex workers, but after reading such a blistering attack on Moore's movie and the views of people like Pauline Hanson made famous here at WSG Forum, and the current political situation with the conservative government and labor opposition in a tight race in Australia . I was just wondering how RN's agenda is really playing over there in Australia.
It seems to me they have all the same problems like we do over here in the US, and her positions are really fringe positions, like the Green's party in Australia, but I really don't know because I don't live there.
I didn't know you were in the room, and I'm not talking about you. I'm answering JZ question to me, besides I thought if you didn't have anything nice to say, you were going to say it, especially to me.
I realize prostitution is a state affair in Australia, and I realize people's attitudes vary greatly accross the nation. My question was in a more general sense. How do the people of Australia view prostitution and sex workers rights?
James D 2004
09-07-04, 15:03
RN
I thought the DATY request is simple. Guys try to get the most out of it when they pay. The penis can only last so long. Using any other organs is a plus.
It's not easy to give orgasm, or multiples, to a stranger. But DATY increases you chances. I think it was you who talked about two types of vibrators, outside and inside. The pleasure is not his, but he gets something to show for his money.
There are too many providers who do not want to get intimate. The more you get, the more you feel money well spent. If DFK is at the top of the list of difficulty, DATY is one above the bottom - breast sucking. Face, neck, back, feet, toes are somewhere in between.
To be perfectly appertizing, one have to shave at least once every 3 days. Non-pros seldom do that often.
Thanks for the appreciation. Now my video (http://www.wsgforum.com/vforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282193#post282193) has full length music. Of course I last longer than that the song but not that much footage has enough beats.
Dear RN,
This post has been written on 8th Sept. 2004, 2.09 am local time (+ 5.30 hrs Gmt).
I am glad that you agree with me about responsibilities and rights. I do not understand how decriminalisation and legalisation would differ. Of course you have very clearly defined both in your post. However to a lay person like me the difference seems to be to put it mildly very technical.
I want to explain my position here. If I were to draft a law, I would write,
1) Sex between consenting adults isn't the business of the government.
2) If a place advertises itself as one where adults of any sex are available for sex against payment of a consideration, then the owner of the place is to be considered as an EMPLOYER and the adults on offer his/her EMPLOYEES. Both to be governed by the legislations regarding employee employer relationships and statutory compliances such as age of the employee, taxes, insurance, provident fund, retirement benefits, the right of employes to ogranise, etc..
3) Since the said establishment would provide a service it would be governed by relavent Consumer Protection Laws, in order to safeguard the interests of the customer.
4) If food, beverages are provided on the premises of the said establishment, they are to conform to the set standards and relevant regulations.
5) In general every person who intends to work as a CSW, and his/her employer, would bear the responsibility of being in sound health as per standards, be subject to periodic checks to ensure and verify conformation, would be responsible for use of adequate protective devices and practices to ensure safety to self and the customer.
6) A would be subject to all of the above as applicable.
Thus CSAs would be LEGAL and DECRIMINALISED.
RN I am sure this is all that would be necessary to satisfy everybody concerned. Give protection to the CSWs involved, prevent their exploitation, Dissuade CSWs from defrauding/cheating/stealing from their customers. Law enforcement agencies freed from the burden of policing this activity would then be able tackle real crimes.
Yogesh
Dickhead you wrote,
Written on 8th Sept 2004
"If Yogesh, obviously an Islamic fundamentalist, is ignored, he will go away."
I am not going to react to this as I consider it below myself to get into an argument which is irrational and illogical.
I cannot resist from quoting an old Indian saying;
"Desist from wrestling with pig in shit, whoever wins it is the pig who enjoys it."
Yogesh
Dear Joe,
Written on 8th September 2004
I have no quarrels about the SENIOR MEMBER guidelines and I definitely am NOT complaining to you.The posting delay part was not a complaint. I mentioned THE PROBLEM TO justify my resorting to PMs. I have said that I was sorry that I intruded upon your privacy. If you do not want a qualified apology, here is a straight one;
JOE SORRY FOR PMING TO YOU!
I hope that this settles the issue.
About the pious tone and other stuff I repeat and add that it could be because,
A) English isn't my first language.
B) We could be using different dialects, so the nuances either fall flat or tend to be misunderstood.
C) YOU LACK THE PATIENCE TO APPRECIATE OR AT LEAST UNDERSTAND A DIFFERING VIEW POINT.
Here is my PM corrospondence with you, I see no reason for it to suffer the allegations that you have made.
One of them is,
"One of Webster's definitions of opinion is "a notion or conviction founded on probable evidence; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge; settled judgment in regard to any point of knowledge or action." Asking and discussing what "probable evidence" an opinion is based on is a normal mode of discussion and of forming and adjusting opinion"
PLEASE READ (10) BELOW WHERE I MENTION THE BASIS UPON WHICH MY NOTIONS ARE FOUNDED UPON
You also say,
"You are obviously free to give your opinions at any time. Expecting me to consider and interact with them, however, means I have the right to expect the same. I've had enough because I saw absolutely none of that from you, which meant I was wasting my time. If I want to read repetitious spam I can go check my email"
IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE TO ENGAGE OR DISENGAGE FROM A CONVERSATION.
***********************************************************************
THE PMs THAT I SENT YOU IN THEIR CRONOLOGICAL ORDEER
1) dated 26/8/2004
sorry but pming not to be lost in the crowd
Dear Joe,
Just to set the record right
What made you believe that I do not consider consensual commercial sex, consensual sex between adults? I Do.
I say that generally only criminals would be involved in a criminal activity. If prohbition were to be reintroduced in the US would any body but the Al Capone types sell alcohol?
It is not a persons involvement that makes it criminal only a criminally inclined person would be probably involved in a criminal activity?
The only way out Legalise Commercial Sex Activities
2) dated 29/8/2004
Me again.
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes I am generalising, but how many dollars worth of illicit liquor did Mom and Pop joints as you refer to them as, sell and what was the worth of liquor sold by organised criminals.
If a majority (arithmatically more than 50%) was operated by criminals then we can safely state that criminals quenched America's thirst during the prohibition era.
This analogy can be used for commercial sex activities too.
3) dated 30/8/2004
Re: Me again.
Dear Joe,
Will you be kind enough to pm me the source of your statistics.
HERE YOU PASSED THOSE LINKS
4) dated 1/9/2004
Thank you.
Thank you. Give me a couple of days. I'll go through them and then get back to you.
YOGESH TAKING SIDES
5)dated 2/9/2004
Bceause Pms reach faster
Hey, Pokey isn't an unapologetic exploiter, he is an apologetic exploiter.
THIS WAS WHEN YOU YOU INDICATED YOUR DESIRE TO QUIT THE CONVERSATION
6)dated 2/9/2004
Keep talking pl
Hey Joey,
My comment was just an exageration and made to convey sarcasm.
I very much appreciate your ethical approach which is clear from your statement that you avoided P4P in India, as there was place for doubt. I've never been to Delhi, but I'm sure it is too filthy to consider even otherwise.
I repeat that you are a gem and an honourable (if you may allow me) exception, atleast in this particular instance.
I did not read any of your examples or experiences, there haven't been any?? posted of late. It was your irritating hypothetical, pious, banter, the holier than thou airs which provoked me into making that illogical statement.
You have given an example (Delhi, India ) and I have raised my hat in salute.
I hope this sets te record straight. Looking forward to more of these friendly skirmishes.
Also probably you are right when you write that I consider prostitution and all those who are involved inherently evil. (however it is too strong a word), on the other hand I would say I consider it disagreeable. I hope you allow me the luxury of the right to have an opinion.
You are in your rage contradicting yourself, you write "But the bottom line is I've had utterly no problem in my travels finding partners who were clearly working of their own free will" and you admit that you were unable to in India, in other words you had a problem in a place which has 7% of the world's land mass and 20% of the worlds population, is that not a large problem???
I COMMENT ON THE REFERENCES WHOSE LINKS YOU PROVIDED EARLIER.
7)dated 2/9/2004
Re: Me again.
HI,
I read the links, the first one was amateur hearsay, and nevertheless contained nothing supporting your argument.
The second one which is well referenced and objective quite clearly supports my viewpoint that make an activity criminal and criminals rush to take it over,
eg,
In summary, Prohibition did not achieve its goals. Instead, it added to the problems it was intended to solve and supplanted other ways of addressing problems. The only beneficiaries of Prohibition were bootleggers, crime bosses, and the forces of big government. Carroll Wooddy concluded that the "Eighteenth Amendment . . . contributed substantially to the growth of government and of government costs in this period [1915-32]."[57]
Repeal of Prohibition dramatically reduced crime, including organized crime, and corruption.
The most telling sign of the relationship between serious crime and Prohibition was the dramatic reversal in the rates for robbery, burglary, murder, and assault when Prohibition was repealed in 1933. That dramatic reversal has Marxist and business-cycle crime theorists puzzled to this day. For example, sociologist John Pandiani noted that "a major wave of crime appears to have begun as early as the mid 1920s [and] increased continually until 1933 . . . when it mysteriously reversed itself."[50] Theodore Ferdinand also found a "mysterious" decline that began in 1933 and lasted throughout the 1930s.[51] How could they miss the significance of the fact that the crime rate dropped in 1933?
8) dated 2/9/2004
CC
Dear Joe,
I wrote a few days ago, "Joe on the other hand admits only to have correct sex, clean and consensual, as mythical as the Atlantis.", I have clarified earlier today that it was an exageration, there is another angle too, that is I alleged that your admission was not true, fictional, mythical, that is because I felt then that your claim of ALWAYS was a bit too far fetched. You say you abstained in India when you were not sure, I take your word for it.
CIV2000'S DATE SHOULD HAVE READ 2/9/2004
9)dated 2/9/2004
Replying to pms
Dear Mr. Zop,
Sorry about calling you Joey, I meant no offence, I just wanted to sound friendly, yes finally we seem to have reached some common ground. The only disagreement seems to be the degree, I suppose you have read Civ2000's post on 2/11/2004, replying to your statistics about incidence of AIDS, endemic among ALL types of CSWs.
About the prohibition analogy, the said link clearly demonstrates the link between crime and prohibition. It states with relavent references that prohibition gave birth to organised crime.
Our argument is whether organised crime runs organised prostitution, my argument where ever it is illegal it does and I stand by it. I repeat most organised prostitution is run by criminals where ever it is illegal. We are not talking about a few coeds, or bored housewives out for pin money etc. when I say most it means a majority. And a majority starts with 51%.
Remember no where have I considered CSWs criminals.
Also kindly go through my posts dated 2/9/2004 for more of my views.
Just curious, do you teach at college, non of my business of course, but as I sasid just curious, and Pokey thinks you do.
Yes and as your rule is have to furnish information about myself;
I am a Civil Engineer and own a tiny firm involved in construction related activities.
10) dated 4/9/2004
Yogesh here.
If you remember you wanted me to give my cv first before I wanted any any bodys personal details, (this is at the very begining, I had requested backgrounds of those posting and you wanted me to cough mine up), so I followed the same rule, gave mine before I asked yours.
Any way I was just joking when I asked whether you taught. So you are a writer and a consultant, what kind of consultations do you do, if I may ask?
Incidently I have renewed acquaintance with a lady who is a Phd in English and has done her doctoral research on Tom Stoppard's plays. I am telling this to you as you are a writer yourself. Met her at a Rotary meeting.
Dear Joe I am 35 years old and my opinions and reactions are based on what I have experienced so far, what I have been told by people, what I have seen on TV, read, my on line interactions, etc. some of it is also a result of me adding a and b.
I wonder what you wanted me to tell you about Kenya for instance, kindly be more specific.
SKIPPING ONE POST THAT WAS JUST CIV2000S PUBLIC POST
11) dated 5/9/2004
Never been to Kenya before.
Technology and information, a bit to generalised isn't it.
Yes, I will tell my acquaintance, that I know a person whose favourite, Stoppard play is "Dog's Hamlet", I will let you know her reaction.
I have asked you before, I repeat please question a specific opoinion that I have expressed. A particular opinion that you want me to substantiate.
Tit for tat, are we here to teach one another lessons?
I MEANT HERE THAT LEGAL IS WHAT I AM ARGUNG FOR
12) dated 5/9/2004
Re: Civ2000's message that I refered to.
I am sorry the date that I had written must have been wrong, I am not a very accurate typist.
Isn't LEGAL the keyword in this sentence that you have writen?
"(I could note, for example, that there is not ONE single instance of a legal prostitute in Nevada contracting HIV, and they are required by law to be tested monthly.) "
Legal that is what I want CSA's to be.
I TRY TO REASON THAT PROBABLY WE ARE MISUNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER
13) dated 5/9/2004
Probably we shall take a break for a while.
You have started to curse. I firmly believe that a person starts to use inappropriate language when he runs out of ideas.
Yes give me some time I will tell you my story.
Joe the trouble is that even though both of us are writing in English, we seem to interpret words sentences and phrases differerntly. I am sure this must interest you as a writer. I guess despite the communication revolution, the internet, we are all living in our own worlds speaking our own dialects. It is not just you that I have had this experience. It is something that I commonly face on the net.
Exchange of information usually causes very little trouble, however when ideas are discussed the connection seems to get disturbed
Cash Works
09-07-04, 18:28
JZ!,
"Prostitution is simply more honest about the whole thing. It's not about messing someone's emotions over except in the same way a movie or thrill park ride pushes your emotions. (And yes, I know that some people still mess each over on things, but that's more about the people than the situation.)"
You brought up my old argument (07/03/2004) about prostitution being the only honest way to get laid! And I kinda thought you disagreed with me way back when!
While I still believe it to be true, I originally posted the comment to see if I could get this forum going again - hadn't been any posts for at least a week prior to that comment (I guess this makes me guilty of "stirring shit"). It seems to have worked...and now, we're, unfortuantely having flame wars, though not as bad as ones I've seen in various forums on the Asia section, flame wars, all the same - Civ, I agree with you here. Everyone has the right to disagree, but try to be polite or at least non-abusive.
RN,
I wrote a fairly long comment about decriminalization vs legalization, but my Internet Explorer crashed (window just disappeared!) before I was able to submit it. Basically, I think we're in agreement, there's just a bit of a problem with semantics. To me, the term "decriminalization" means reducing the penalty for an illegal act from a felony to a misdemeanor and reducing the punishment for said illegal activity as well - possibly to the point that the police wouldn't even bother enforcing the law unless the perpetrator were arrested for something else - prosecution looks more impressive if the defense has 30 charges against them, rather than just one or two. Legalization to me, means that the activity which was once illegal, is no longer illegal and therefore legal. The results of my two definitions may be similar, but the difference is that with decriminalization, there are still laws on the books against whatever activity was decriminalized, where as there would no longer be laws on the books against any legalized activity. I'm no lawyer, so my definitions may not be correct in "legalese", they're just the way I understand the terms. Ex: In North Carolina, where I live, it's illegal to possess a lottery ticket. All the states surrounding NC have lotteries and many North Carolinians (myself included) play the lotteries in other states. Technically, we could be arrested for bringing the tickets back to NC, but various law enforcement big-wigs have stated that the only way anyone will be prosecuted for possession of a lottery ticket is if they're arrested for something else & the cops just happen to find lottery tickets in your possession. Even then, they say they probably wouldn't bother, unless it appeared that you intended to resell the tickets.
DATY - pheremones play a big part in intimacy and sex. How better to get an extreme dose of female pheremones than DATY? (I think JZ made the same comment, just a bit more detailed).
CW
Pokey, though I think Sheehan's "review" is pretty much baloney, I do find it amusing that he brings up a lot of the same things about Michael Moore that I like to tease him with (I've known him since we were both teenagers) such as the fact that he's not really a working-class Flint kid, he's from one of the better suburbs. (However, I'm entitled to tease him about it -- Sheehan's just an idiot.) I don't think Sheehan has anything to do with Hansen's views, however.
RN, in point of fact my first encounter with prostitution was an object lesson in stupidity and how not to do things -- I was nineteen, drunk on my ass, carrying too much money and on impulse said yes to a SW who waved me down on a corner while I was on my way home. I went into a dingy dive she apparently shared with some other girls specifically for tricking, in a very bad neighborhood, without giving it a second thought. While I was getting blown, with my pants off, she took and emptied my wallet, something I discovered later only because she brought it down to my car as I was leaving, probably either because she wanted to reinforce to me how stupid I was or because she didn't want me coming back later.
What in fact I remembered later (other than the fact that it was expensive once everything was factored in) was not the specifics of the encounter, but the fact that it was the best head I'd yet received in my young life, far better than anything I'd gotten from girlfriends.
But at that point, to be honest, I had precious few preconceptions about prostitutes, and no sense about the complexities or social issues involved.
JZ, well we agree on something that Sheehan's an idiot. I came across him because me being the liberal was defending Moore. While looking into Sheehan's writings it seems like he did have a soft spot for Hanson. I also was stuck on Australia had right-wing newspapers on par with our Fox television. Yet, RN says the majority of people especially liberals in Australia support prostitution. Maybe the poll question is posed the wrong way, but who I'm I to say.
JZ, I'm sorry you had to take all that abuse from Yogesh, and his private PM's, shit I'd go crazy if I got that many. I now know what to do if someone gets me pissed here. ( RN get ready for private PM's from me) Yogesh, thanks for correction on me being a "Apologetic exploiter".
Since, we are talking about the first time with a sex workers, I'm going to chime in here. The first time for me was when I was 18 years old, in Hollywood Ca, Sunset Bl. I was ripped off by a cute 25 year old, in the back of my Chevy pickup truck. She gave me a BBBJTC, and since I was 18 after shooting my load; I was ready to fuck but the SW said because I came already that I'd have to pay more money, she then kissed my lips put on her panties and jumped out of my truck leaving me a little frustrated and wanting more.
Cash works, says that prostitution is more honest, maybe it is maybe it isn't. DH, a few post back spoke of jealousy and other problems with sex workers. I agree with DH, especially if you frequent certain places all the time and the girls get to know you.
For example, I went to this bar in Mexico, and took this girl upstairs, she was young with nice shaved pussy. While giving me a BJ I asked her to turn around so I could feast on her pussy. She didn't want to say no to me, so instead told me she had to piss, she went to the bathroom, squatted down and took a piss without wiping. She then came back to bed, and I didn't skip a beat and started feasting away on the wet pussy.
Two weeks later I go to the same bar and the same girl tries to hang around me. I tell her politely that I'm not interested, and when she see's me with another girl, she just stares, and gives dirty looks to the other girl. This happens all the time, and some times I just tell the girl, that I didn't like her the time before. The worst problem I have is when they tell you they love you, or want to borrow $5000 for a important operation for her mother, or else she will die, or they want to finish their house back home for both of you, etc etc,.
Yogesh, I do understand your point of view -- it's truly not at all difficult to understand, despite your sense that it must be otherwise. I cannot however "appreciate" it or agree in any way without some sort of sense of what the opinion is grounded in, which you repeatedly fail to provide. I'm sure everyone is edified by seeing all those PMs with no sense of continuity since my replies are not included -- though I do thank you at least for the courtesy of not posting things I wrote specifically to you and not for posting in this thread. I will not post all of mine here as I have no interest in further conversation to you, and I will not subject everyone here to them, but I will post a portion of a single reply I made, simply because it demonstrates the point I was making regarding my frustration in trying to have a conversation with you.
You wrote to me:
"Our argument is whether organised crime runs organised prostitution, my argument where ever it is illegal it does and I stand by it. I repeat most organised prostitution is run by criminals where ever it is illegal. We are not talking about a few coeds, or bored housewives out for pin money etc. when I say most it means a majority. And a majority starts with 51%."
I replied once, asking you to support your statement on "majority" by using a place. say, Kenya, as an example, and then in another PM on Sept. 3rd I said, in part:
"My query regarding your experiences was simple: you have a lot of opinions and have made a lot of pronouncements regarding prostitution, and it would be helpful to have a sense of how they're grounded -- whether they come from actual experience or personal knowledge or contact with prostitution, or whether this is all theoretical, coming from reading and discussion. That is unclear from the information you've provided.
"And the Kenya thing is also quite simple: you stated, ABSOLUTELY, that the MAJORITY of prostitution (51% at least, a majority) EVERYWHERE where it wasn't legal was run by organized crime. So I'm saying, ok, let's pick a place, I've been to Kenya, I've seen the scene there, prostitution is illegal -- so kindly point me to a SHRED of evidence that says the sex trade in Kenya is run by organized crime. If you can't come up with such evidence, or even some sort of reference that says it's the case, then you are just talking through your hat and your statement has absolutely no validity."
I simply don't know how to be more clear about what I was asking for. Perhaps someone else here can tell me how else to say it.
There are many other instances I could cite, but I'm not going to bore people here any more with it -- I'm tired with all of this and there are far more interesting topics being discussed here.
Yes, there could be an understanding problem. Yes, nuance could be lost (which is the nature of online communication anyway.) It doesn't really matter -- the bottom line is that we clearly do not communicate as you have utterly no understanding of the points I have repeatedly made to you regarding opinion and support.
I recall quite well the first and second PMs I got from you -- the first attacked me for some statistics I posted regarding the amount of people who spoke English in various countries (not my stats, with the source clearly identified) in response to a question someone asked. Your PM called me a complete idiot and fool, if I recall correctly (I've long since deleted it.) Your second PM said, oh, please ignore my previous PM and never mind me attacking you, as it was late and I misread.
Let me merely suggest that perhaps you should also consider whether your own accusation "YOU LACK THE PATIENCE TO APPRECIATE OR AT LEAST UNDERSTAND A DIFFERING VIEW POINT" might not be applied to you. I readily confess that after going through a long series of PMs with you, I do indeed lack the patience to continue in something that has eaten up a fair amount of my time and has seemed utterly fruitless.
You wrote, "IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE TO ENGAGE OR DISENGAGE FROM A CONVERSATION."
Kindly consider me disengaged.
Greetings all,
I read one of yogurts recent posts about how many pm's he sent to Joe Zop. Man I'd go nuts if that happened to me. I've learned not to bother replying to any of his posts and he's pretty much quit bothering with me.
I remember after his first 2 or 3 posts here, I predicted to another member that he'd be going on forever...... engaging in a never-ending debate about this subject. So far it looks like I was right. It's just my opinion, but he never really engages in a discussion, he just states his position and then proceeds to instruct us on why he is right and we are wrong. Any rebuttal of his opinion is met with yet another counter-arguement and it goes on forever.
Anyways, I did a search on his postings so far. 30 out of 36 of his posts are in this forum. Of the other 6, 2 are letters to the editor relating to his posts in this forum. It was interesting to see that a couple of his early posts in the Bombay and New Delhi sections seemed to hint that he has had some mongering experiences of his own.
I thought some of you might find this info interesting. If it's true..... he'd be one of the biggest hypocrites around.
Rock
ps. I'm sure this post will provoke an immediate counter- response from the party in question. Let's see what kind of explanation he can come up with.
Cash Works, I still disagree with your statement that prostitution is the only honest way to get laid. Saying prostitution at its core is more honest than some of the nefarious examples given certainly isn't saying it's the only honest way.
Pokey, given that Rupert Murdoch, the CEO of Fox, was born in Melbourne, and started his media empire there, yes, there are definitely things like our Fox TV in Oz!
In recent weeks I've seen a few people post items that seemed to be bragging about how they didn't like a girl's attitude so even though she doesn't like Greek they visited the islands anyway, or how a girl was so out of it they decided to take advantage of the situation. Some of the descriptions sounded like rape, or at least close enough to the legal definitions that you could be tried for it in my state.
The reason I'm posting in here is I'm hoping to get a discussion going about boundaries. Yes, most of the men here are paying to play and most of the women mentioned accept payment for play. But there are still some boundaries to respect. If a woman says she doesn't do something, such as Greek, or is too incoherent to realize someone's having away with her, then it's time for the monger to back down. I have no problems with pay-for-play action between two consenting adults, but both adults have to agree they want to do it. Show the ladies some respect, guys.
PosterLion
09-08-04, 07:38
the economist view (sep 2nd 2004 - from the economist print edition)
here is an article from a rag that i particularly enjoy (that is i enjoyed the article and i also enjoy the rag).
poster...
===
attitudes to commercial sex are hardening. but tougher laws are wrong in both principle and practice.
two adults enter a room, agree a price, and have sex. has either committed a crime? common sense suggests not: sex is not illegal in itself, and the fact that money has changed hands does not turn a private act into a social menace. if both parties consent, it is hard to see how either is a victim. but prostitution has rarely been treated as just another transaction, or even as a run-of-the-mill crime: the oldest profession is also the oldest pretext for outraged moralising and unrealistic lawmaking devised by man.
in recent years, governments have tended to bother with prostitution only when it threatened public order. most countries (including britain and america) have well-worn laws against touting on street corners, against the more brazen type of brothel and against pimping. this has never been ideal, partly because sellers of sex feel the force of law more strongly than do buyers, and partly because anti-soliciting statutes create perverse incentives. on some occasions, magistrates who have fined streetwalkers have been asked to wait a few days so that the necessary money can be earned.
so there is perennial discussion of reforming prostitution laws. during the 1990s, the talk was all of liberalisation. now the wind is blowing the other way. in 1999, sweden criminalised the buying of sex. france then cracked down on soliciting and outlawed commercial sex with vulnerable women—a category that includes pregnant women. britain began to enforce new laws against kerb-crawling earlier this year, and is now considering more restrictive legislation (see article). outside a few pragmatic enclaves, attitudes are hardening. whereas, ten years ago, the discussion was mostly about how to manage prostitution and make it less harmful, the aim now is to find ways to stamp it out.
the puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. what has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.
the white slave trade
it is not surprising that many of the rich world's prostitutes are foreigners. immigrants have a particularly hard time finding jobs that pay well; local language skills are not prized in the sex trade; prostitutes often prefer to work outside their home town. but the free movement of labour is as controversial in the sex trade as in any other business. wherever they work, foreign prostitutes are accused of driving down prices, touting “extra” services and consorting with organised criminal pimps who are often foreigners, too. the fact that a very small proportion of women are trafficked—forced into prostitution against their will—has been used to discredit all foreigners in the trade, and by extension (since many sellers of sex are indeed foreign) all prostitutes.
abolitionists make three arguments. from the right comes the argument that the sex trade is plain wrong, and that, by condoning it, society demeans itself. liberals (such as this newspaper) who believe that what consenting adults do in private is their own business reject that line.
from the left comes the argument that all prostitutes are victims. its proponents cite studies that show high rates of sexual abuse and drug taking among employees. to which there are two answers. first, those studies are biased: they tend to be carried out by staff at drop-in centres and by the police, who tend to see the most troubled streetwalkers. taking their clients as representative of all prostitutes is like assessing the state of marriage by sampling shelters for battered women. second, the association between prostitution and drug addiction does not mean that one causes the other: drug addicts, like others, may go into prostitution just because it's a good way of making a decent living if you can't think too clearly.
a third, more plausible, argument focuses on the association between prostitution and all sorts of other nastinesses, such as drug addiction, organised crime, trafficking and **** sex. to encourage prostitution, goes the line, is to encourage those other undesirables; to crack down on prostitution is to discourage them.
brothels with brands
plausible, but wrong. criminalisation forces prostitution into the underworld. legalisation would bring it into the open, where abuses such as trafficking and under-age prostitution can be more easily tackled. brothels would develop reputations worth protecting. access to health care would improve—an urgent need, given that so many prostitutes come from diseased parts of the world. abuses such as child or forced prostitution should be treated as the crimes they are, and not discussed as though they were simply extreme forms of the sex trade, which is how opponents of prostitution and, recently, the governments of britain and america have described them.
puritans argue that where laws have been liberalised—in, for instance, the netherlands, germany and australia—the new regimes have not lived up to claims that they would wipe out pimping and sever the links between prostitution and organised crime. certainly, those links persist; but that's because, thanks to concessions to the opponents of liberalisation, the changes did not go far enough. prostitutes were made to register, which many understandably didn't want to do. not surprisingly, illicit brothels continued to thrive.
if those quasi-liberal experiments have not lived up to their proponents' expectations, they have also failed to fulfil their detractors' greatest fears. they do not seem to have led to outbreaks of disease or under-age sex, nor to a proliferation of street prostitution, nor to a wider collapse in local morals.
which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. if there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. people should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's
I find it funny that a number of states in the US are considering decriminalizing/legalizing certain drugs, while on the other had banning legitimate business.
Legal drugs are bad enough, Smoking, and Alcohol. Take huge chunks out of their users. I have seen family members combat both. I have watched a few die of lung cancer, and two die of sirrocisis (I know it is misspelled) of the liver. I have watched them cope with how to break the addictions, and futilely fail time after time. 10 step programs, latest fads, pills, TCM, hypnosis, blah, blah, blah.
I have used all kinds of drugs. So it is not that I feel they are evil. The trick with all kinds of drugs both legal and illegal is that you have to realize that moderation is how you prevent addiction. A little of something won’t hurt you. But if you take a little, every day, you soon start taking more and more. You can’t use drugs to cope with your problems, they only compound them.
But we all know that the morons who have addictive personalities will become addicted to anything. So why should the government legalize Pot, or Cocaine but not legalize/decriminalize prostitution? Because married women won’t allow it. They know that in one law they would lose their control over their pussy whipped men.
So we can give up even considering some form of legalization / decriminalization. It will not happen until those fat ugly married women regardless of their socio economic status loose the right to vote. Or until men go out and marry only working girls so that they get a chance to build a power base.
I’m tired of all the freedoms that have been, and continue to be lost all around the world. A number of the laws that have reduced your ability to live a free life have been forced on you in the last 50 years by the very governments you voted in.
The basis of a free nation is that you have to respect individual rights, liberties, and freedoms. For instance you can’t make guns illegal then expect those people to respect your freedom to buy cocaine or visit prostitutes. The only way to keep the land free is to respect all forms of freedom and everyone’s right to their own opinion, even if you violently disagree with them. The problem is that these things happen slowly at first only small infractions, but as time builds the next thing you know you’re paying 40% of your income to a government that controls every aspect of your life. Since we can’t prevent moron special interest groups from having a voice and staying out of our life, and we can’t prevent the wholesale loss of freedom that has occurred.
Oosikman, your point is indeed one that comes up on this forum often, and I think you've described it quite well. When the issue is mongers controlling and doing something the provider clearly does not agree to, (or have the ability to agree to) it absolutely is rape. I've seen people argue that, hey, I'm "buying" her body, so she should do what I want, and if she doesn't agree with that then she shouldn't have agreed to the session. That argument is specious bullshit. We wouldn't feel, for example, that a sex worker agreed to being part of an S/M session and could be burned willy-nilly with cigarettes, simply because she agreed to a general sex session, so why should other violations be acceptable? If I rent a car I don't get the right to repaint it simply because I've a mind to do so.
If I want a specific act, I make sure I ask for it beforehand. If I don't ask, then it's something that needs to be negotiated during the session or, as is more usually the case with me, it's something that gets explored during the session and is either available or not. It's just not that tough to ask, "What's on the menu?" or "What do you allow?" before things commence.
Consent is consent, and lack of consent is lack of consent.
The Virgin Terr
09-08-04, 10:40
My posts don't appear immediately, and when they finally do it seems they are inserted in the time slot when they were originally sent by me, which may have been yesterday or before that, and in the meantime, since this thread is currently so hot, there may be a dozen more recent posts, so mine gets buried and goes unread, except for people like RN who apparently checks back in time. Can anyone tell me what I need to do to eliminate this time delay? Do I need to send jackson an email or what?
RN's reports are posted immediately because she is a Senior Member. I would suggest that you consider applying for Senior Member status yourself, although I can tell you from looking at all the writing mistakes that I'm going to have to edit in this report that you haven't figured the system out yet.
RN, your responses to my questions haven't cleared up my confusion over women and sex. What I mean is, you admit that some clients are unattractive in appearance, yet great lovers. On the other hand, you've also admitted in the past to having had horrible experience with at least one guy you found attractive enough to pick up for sex for pleasure, only to get raped for your trouble when this guy figured he could do whatever he pleased once given permission one time. The obvious thought or question that comes to my mind is: Why not always get paid for sex, given that customers are often better lovers, while 'attractive' non-customers turn out to be asshole abusers? If I could get paid for sex and pleasured simultaneously, while discovering that those who don't pay are actually less respectful, I think it would be an easy choice to kill 2 birds with one stone by having both my financial and sexual needs attended to in this way. In the past you've also complained about lack of sex, when not working! Why don't you quit?
Re. Honest sexual relationships, I have this to say: I've been married one time. Looking back on that I can honestly say I did it to have regular sex and companionship, not because I'd found a soulmate I wanted to be monogamous with. I was essentially dishonest to obtain a sexual relationship, and eventually paid for that mistake emotionally with a traumatic divorce. Since accepting prostitution as a moral response to meeting sexual need, I feel no need to lie about 'committing' to someone just to get sex. For me, prostitution has been much more honest and moral than marriage was. I can admit to physical attractions without having to lie about 'commitment'.
EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to capitalize the word "I". To avoid future delays, please use a capital "I" to refer to yourself in future reports. Thanks!
EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to correctly spell the words "you", "are" and "because". To avoid delays in future reports, please refrain from using "u" instead of "you", "r" instead or "are", "em" instead of "them", and "cuz" instead of "because", etc. Thanks!
You want to talk about rape, read Looking For Lefty's latest jewel in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin section. He picks up some drunk chick, not a hooker, and butt fucks her while she is passed out. That shit is repulsive to me.
I think a prostitute should have the same right as any other woman to tell the guy to stop, except I think if she does she has to give the money back. I know quite a few guys who seem to think it's funny to come in the gal's mouth after promising not to and that is probably a form of rape too, although accidents do happen.
Hey Rubbie I was in The Penthouse brothel in Sydney and I definitely remember drinking wine there, and they have a bar. But I don't think they charge extra for the drink. Maybe that's how they get around it?
Here in Buenos Aires it is technically illegal to have sex in a club that serves alcohol. Therefore we have a number of hourly hotels that are strategically located near the clubs. I don't use 'em, though. I figure if I don't trust the gal enough to bring her to my place I don't trust her enough to fuck her.
One thing that is sort of immoral down here is that a lot of chicas come here from other Mercosur countries but still only have 90 day visas. Once they overstay them which they often do, they can't work in the clubs. That means they have to work in the privados (apartments), and that means they have to take all comers. Plus some of the privados will take a bigger cut from the illegals because they know they can't complain. If I find out a privado is doing that, I cross it off my list. Fortunately my list is quite extensive.
I knew Yogesh was a Hindu name and not a Muslim name but I wanted to piss the guy off anyway. I have to live up to my handle at least some of the time.
If it makes you feel any better, I think the guy makes a lot of his shit up. I did think about reporting the post to Jackson but I see him pretty often so I figure I'll tell him to check it out when I see him in person. Now go back and read his post about the "wheel party." That one isn't exactly about rape but it ain't too moral either.
if i recall correctly he's also written in the past about being with ****d girls. he seems a pretty twisted one, and i'm surprised jackson's let some of his stuff stay up.
Rolly Polly
09-08-04, 12:47
I beg to differ, no looney's down here in Miami.
RN:),
"Rape is rape, regardless of whether the woman is a sex worker or not".
In some legal entities it is not rape when any kind of 'general consent' is given, like accepting payment or being the rapist's lawfully married wife.
(Don't worry, I agree 100% with the statement, regardless of the law.)
OTOH I thought is was quite funny when a burglar who took advantage of a woman he found sleeping after entering her bedroom was found not guilty of rape. The most horrible judge ruled that eventho no consent was given, it wasn't rape because the Sleeping Beauty didn't complain about it.
So, it seems you're only save as long as you:
- do not accept payments for sex*
- are not married
- never sleep
* women of the World: Please disregard this rule - It would render this forum purposeless!
"It's filthy fucks (etc)". Eventho I agree on that one as well:), I did not expect this kind of talk from you after the lessons your momma told'ya about being nice... Very disappointing:(!
Sinanju Master
09-08-04, 12:55
I just read that guy's report from Milwaukee and I wouldn't be surprised if he were also into necrophilia. He went WAAAAAY over the line and it's stuff like THAT that feminazi's use to demonize us. He just set us back to the Stone Age, hair-dragging and all.
Freeler, there's also the case in Texas several years back, where a woman about to be raped begged her rapist to wear a condom as she was afraid of getting AIDS on top of the rape. The original grand jury refused to indict the guy because they felt this implied consent.
RN, we all know there are bad sides to prostitution on both ends of the equation, and bad people out there. We've been discussing that here only recently. These posts demonstrate more of the same.
I never cared much for Milwaukee when I visited, even though I'm a working-class city guy, and this certainly gives me another reason. I'm equally disgusted by the "she got drunk so she deserved what she got" posts from the bystanders.
Rolly Polly
09-08-04, 13:44
Joe,
I was also baffled with the Milwaukee peanut gallery's responses. One guy went as far as to say "we need more mongers like you", which was rather disturbing.
Truth be told, I'm 99% sure that post was bull shit. He seems to claim he did anal (rape) uncovered with a strange drunk women. I guess some people don't have a concern in the world about STD's, but it's more likely he is making up stories to suppliment his otherwise pathetic life.
I agree the Wisconsin story is replusive and probably made up, but interesting reading. Rape? No jury you convict this person for picking up a passed out street worker in a red light district, then take her to a room to ravage her body.
There is a thing called personal responsibility, she had a duty to herself to use reasonable care in such as area. If I was in the same area and got stinking drunk and was robbed and beat up would anyone really care? Wisconsin guy, is only guilty of being cheap, he should have left a few bucks to the SW.
RN says:
"Having a Duty of Care means that a sex worker can be held accountable if she was to knowingly pass on an STD to a client - hence regular testing is encouraged (and freely undertaken) for a sex worker's own good, rather than trying to enforce mandatory testing. Sex workers - even street workers - can pay tax, demand workers rights, charge clients with assault, etc, because they are not committing a criminal act."
I have a real problem with RN's regular testing "encouraged" if prostitution is going to be allowed freely in the world testing MUST be " MANDATORY" if we allow what RN wants girls with AIDS, and open herpes sores could be allowed to work.
I could just hear RN now, " if the girl has to be mandatory tested, what about the customer.' I think it is the customer who should be "encouraged"
Rolly Polly
09-08-04, 13:49
Pokey,
You are not correct here, this is rape (assuming the scenario ever happened). He states himself that this was not a SW, but rather just a drunk chick.
Went out to Waukesha Saturday night. Found one downtown, drunk. Not a SW, just a drunk. She was stinking drunk. She was early 20s, medium build, ok body.
Pokey said, "If I was in the same area and got stinking drunk and was robbed and beat up would anyone really care?"
But regardless of whether or not anyone would really care, wouldn't it still be robbery and assault? And if we were talking about a drunk streetwalker rather than you, wouldn't it still be robbery and assault? How is sexual somehow different than regular assault?
I don't understand your logic here.
Rolly Poly, Dickhead, I sure how you're right that it's all bullshit. But if it is fiction passing itself off as fact it has no place on this forum, and if it isn't it equally has no place.
Rolly Polly
09-08-04, 14:43
I had to scroll down for a second becuase I thought you were calling me dickhead...... :)
I guess you wouldn't have been the first. :/
My mistake, I didn't know she wasn't a street walker. So I guess it is rape. But, lets say she was a prostitutes, and this guy didn't put anything into her drink: Would it be rape? Techinically, it would be rape, and I agree that yes a prostitute can be raped.
It doesn't matter if a few in the minority here believe she was raped and this guy should be punished. No JURY in this country would convict this guy. Do you JZ really think this guy would get convicted and go to jail, after seeing the case against Kobe Bryant fall apart. Come on, you of all people being an ex-cop after finding this women would just shake your head and tell her to go home.
I go to Mexico all the time and it's a very dangerous place with muggers allways looking for drunk Americans to assult and rob. If I'm stupid enought to get real drunk, and I get rolled, it would be a crime but I would also be partially to blame. If I got rolled by a rich kid out for fun in San Diego, and later sued him in civil count; my damage reward would be reduced by the judge, because I shared parial blame-this happens all the time.
By the way, we had a case like this in Orange County,California, where this little 16 year old Ho, for lack of a better term, and this describes her. She was drunk, and gang raped and filmed by other kids and young adults, one being the son of a undersheriff.
Guess what happened?
Pokey:
If I'm stupid enought to get real drunk, and I get rolled, it would be a crime but I would also be partially to blame. I do not think your example is truly valid. Opportunity is not an excuse. Rolling a drunk is just as wrong as raping someone.
I have had a couple of experiences where things just did not work out with a provider. Her fault? My fault? Who knows. In those cases, since I am not just looking for an orgasm (all those blessed with hands can usually achieve one of those with no assistance) but an enjoyable "experience," I just showed the provider the door.
Did I lose some money? Yes. Was it important enough to rape someone? No.
Rape has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with violence and domination. If we face facts here, any gent who spends anything other than disposable income on the hobby is making a serious mistake.
IMHO we are talking about de-humanizing our relationship (however short) when we start to consider our provider as anything less than a thinking, feeling human being.
Business, Yes. Criminal? Only if you make it so.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Dear RN,
You write
"I'd say you're right about the booze - the laws in most States say that a brothel can't have a liquor license and a liquor licensed venue can't offer prostitution. But I guess if you're an illegal brothel or you're selling booze without a liquor license, the other laws probably don't really apply"
That is the trouble when things are considered criminal, I get your point RN about decriminalisation. Decriminalisation would precede legalisation. Your statement merely illustrates what I have been saying all along, once you smear an activity as criminal, criminals rush to get a toe hold, it gets beyond the ambit of the law and a centre for every thing criminal for you hang only once for however many murders you do.
Yogesh
Well said, Sporadic.
Pokey, as I said in the American women thread, what happened in the Kobe Bryant case only shows again that if you've got enough money and can hire enough lawyers who will do absolutely anything to win, then you will win. I don't think it's a surprise to anyone here or anywhere in the world that if you're rich or have influence you can buy your way out of trouble.
But the fact that justice is not perfect is hardly the same thing as saying something was or was not a crime or saying something's not worth pursuing. Saying it's not a crime or somehow doesn't count unless someone can be convicted is certainly not true from the victim's perspective. And victims of crimes with mitigating circumstances are still victims, and generally go through enough self-recrimination to be more than enough punishment, not to mention whatever they've suffered from the crime itself. (And civil court's a very different thing than criminal court -- mitigation in criminal court might get you pled down of even off the hook with a jury, but it doesn't wipe away guilt.)
Given that Lookingforlefty appears to also have all manner of diseases, based on his postings, I suppose this woman deserves the death sentence of AIDS in addition to being raped because she was stupid enough to get drunk in a public place.
Look, I agree that not only do you need to be unlucky to be a victim of a crime it also helps to be foolish to one or another degree. But the fact that your victim was foolish isn't much of a defense. If this woman came to me as a cop I'd have a rape kit done, I'd take her statement, I'd go the the room and gather whatever physical evidence might still be there, I'd check with the desk clerk to look to find out who rented the room, get his story, and I'd sure as hell look to put his ass in jail. Now, the prosecutor might decide this would be hard to convict on, but not only is that his call, it's different from whether or not I, as a cop, would feel a crime took place and what I'd look to do with the perpetrator all that I could. At the very least, he'd end up suffering arrest and public humiliation.
As a cop, I'd want my community to be safe for ordinary citizens even during the times they were not being as careful as possible. And I'd expect people to do the same for me -- since none of us is always smart or on guard -- as that's what building a good community is all about.
Dear Folks,
I gleaned this from one of the posts, , I think it would interest you, (I have capitalised as a devise to highlight)
Location India>Banglore, dated 14-8-2004, posted by Guru72
Second time it was disastrous (same rate but no tips). I am not sure what was wrong with the girl ; She was totally ASLEEP all the time from the moment she entered my car. With difficully she climbed out of the car, walked into the room and COLLAPSED on the bed. I tried to wake her up many times in the night but she WOULDN'T wake up. Finally I ended up MASTRUBATING. I haven't tried it again as I don't get the opportunity to be alone much
and a comment
Location India>Banglore, dated 22-8-2004, posted by Robert Lee
You should have SCREWED her while she was SLEEPING. If you were hard enough to masturbate you were hard enough to get her.
I would have. You paid money and she went to sleep. Man! She would have a sore twat and cum spots all over her when she woke up
Yogesh
Sporadic, UGH? I don't understand you, let me go drink a few beers because it's hot here in So Cal today. Maybe when I come back and read it again it will make more sense to me.
I was just about to leave and get a few beers, but JZ had to jump in here again. Now I'll have to re read what he said in the American Women forum, because I think I briefly saw it the first time.
Look, I believe Kobe was guilty, but I also believe that women didn't carry herself very well, having sex with two other guys within the time frame that she was raped. Kobe, had money but he was still a black man, and if that expert jury consultant for the prosecution, her name excapes me now, but she worked for OJ's team. She would have picked people like you JZ, Sporadic, and right-wingers who use to live in the south, and you guys would have convicted Kobe.
You would only be wasting you time gathering evidence for this women even if she wasn't a working girl. No jury would convict her, but if you were a real cop, you would sweat the guy, and make him sign a confession, and then get a public defender to cop a plea for the guy.
Hey, guys, girls, don't attack me. I don't make the rules, I just play by the rules or bend them a little.
Now, can I go out and drink my beer now.
Wow, this is a great thread. I have lurked for a few months and this is my first post. As someone from Wisconsin, I too have doubted the accuracy of Lefty's posts. Please trust that the vast majority of Wisconsin mongers have nothing in common with how Lefty claims to act.
I have no experience with SW, but way too much with Internet Escorts.
I'll go back to browsing and lurking until I have something of substance to contribute.
The LookingForLefty post was the one that prompted my initial comment that started this thread. There's been a lot of discussion, I had to scroll a couple of pages just for the last 12 hours of action.
Anyway, I sent Jackson a message to monitor Lefty's posts because this isn't the first one of his that bordered on rape/sexual assault. I agree, we don't need mongers with this attitude. It makes it worse for all of us. I'd be willing to bet that Lefty doesn't have any sisters, because if he did I'd hope his attitude toward women would be different.
Just to give you an update, I've received a couple of PMs from various mongers, not Lefty, asking why I'm dumping on the guy who provides the board with some of "the most entertaining and interesting posts".
Yes, Lefty writes some interesting posts. But that doesn't give him the right to glorify sexual assault on this board. I remember 30 years ago reading about a man who was convicted for raping his wife. Even if there's implied consent because a couple is man-and-wife or monger-and-SW, there are still certain boundaries that must be respected. If this was a frat boy taking advantage of a girl who got drunk at a frat party, you can be sure the frat boy would be charged with sexual assault.
Here are some definitions and facts about sexual assault from a University of Wisconsin-Whitewater study, http://www.uww.edu/stdRsces/SART/facts.htm
Here are legal descriptions of sexual assault from the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse student handbook, http://www.uwlax.edu/StudentLife/sa.html I'm using Wisconsin sources because these links also are being posted on the Milwaukee board.
Member #2001
09-09-04, 00:22
I believe that this forum should be about geting laid for free or by paying for it and not about the legal degrees of seperation between rape and mongering. Its not important to discuss it on this board.
I sure do not want to see any thread be destroyed by a flame war. Just look at the Thailand board a few months ago and see what was going on over there. It was pretty sad.
Its silly flaming someone else here for writing his only personal experences about picking up women, when we all come here to look where we can break the law by looking for pussy and paying for it. With the exceptions of a few places in the world prostitution and steetwalking is illegal.
Isnt the purpose of this site is really helping the monger to break the law and writing about it here? When I travel, and I want to get laid without haveing to romance and spending alot of money, time, and effort on a girl over the corse of a week, I can go to this website and see where the action is in the city I am in. Or maybe I just want to check out a new hotspot that I overlooked in my city.
I also share my eperence here and I would like to think that I could do it without any fear of retrabution or fear of having someone jump on my ass because they did not like what I had to say.
Warpig2000
09-09-04, 00:44
Oosikman, just wanted to add my voice of public approval to your challenging the posts of Lookingforlefty.
I'm generally open to just about any post about consensual sexual activity between adults that is within the guidelines of this board. Lefty crossed a line that should never be crossed, one that I personally think common sense should make an off-limits place to go in this online community- to force oneself on another human being without their consent. I read the same posts earlier and unfortunately did not have the balls to stand up and say something because Milwaukee was 'not my turf' and Lefty seemed to be a popular voice on his board. Well, I was wrong.
We need to confront such behaviour on this board, and let others know that it is NOT okay and not to be tolerated.
I believe that there is a sort of bond between a true "monger" and the objects of his desire, a sort of trust and contract that we should try to follow. Regardless of her state, drunk, high, broke, out cold, we should try to treat these women with a modicum of respect. They are human beings and there, but for the grace of god, my daughter could be. I never have hurt, hit or forced a SW to do anything she did not want to do. Most of the time I have treated them like people and have been treated the same way in return, getting good service in return.
No, it has not always been returned. I was ripped off more than once, but for the most part the girls and I had a good time and I reciprocated whenever I could, giving her a good release.
With that in mind, this talk about raping or sodomizing these women while they are drunk or out cold is nothing more than a crime, pure and simple. Yes, you could be convicted, despite peotestations to the contrary. I hope Jackson bans your sorry ass.
Assume the following fact pattern: Monger picks up hooker and they come to a normal arrangement for her to come to his home and have sex in exchange for money. Once at the home, monger pays in advance. Hooker drinks heavily and passes out. Monger, having paid for sex, fucks her while she is passed out.
Rape or not?
Or how about this . . .
Once at the home, monger pays in advance. Monger drinks heavily and passes out. Monger, having paid for sex, gets none and woman leaves.
Robbery or not?
. . . It's a joke
I think not robbery because of the money value of time. That fact pattern is more like me saying hey come paint my house and I will have the paint ready and you get there and I don't have any paint. I need to then pay you for your commuting time.
However if monger has paid for an hour then I think hooker needs to wait an hour to see if he wakes up. Sucking his dick while he is passed out would be above and beyond the call of duty but probably much appreciated by the average drunk and passed out monger. But would THAT be rape?
If an unconscious person has an orgasm, does a tree fall in the forest?
In my fact pattern, consent was given before hooker passed out. In the US, assuming legality of purpose which of course it would not be, consent could not then be withdrawn after the contract was formed.
Me personally, I would not fuck the hooker under these passed-out conditions. I'd just take the money back out of her purse.
Pokey
Hey, guys, girls, don't attack me. I don't make the rules, I just play by the rules or bend them a little.No attack intended towards you, or for that matter, anyone else.
If I did not make myself sufficiently clear, I apologize.
I was trying to offer the opinion that being "less than prudent" may not be a good idea, but it hardly offers a mugger an excuse to mug you.
By the same token, a provider who is in no position to defend themselves, be it drunk or passed out in a hotel room or whatever, is no "invitation" for rape or assault.
That he/she was "asking for it" is really not acceptable. IMHO not very many people want to be assaulted or mugged or raped.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Dickhead, in my book it's still rape, though more borderline, as even though there seems to be consent implied by the contractual arrangement, a person must be capable of withdrawing consent as well as giving it. Giving consent to having sex doesn't extend consent to all sexual acts, and a person has the opportunity to change their mind at any time if, for example, they feel things are getting too rough.
But most of all as I understand the law it's simple and absolute -- in order for there to be consent, the person must be capable of knowingly giving and withdrawing it. Children, those unconscious, and those in stupors (as, for example, via GBH) are incapable of giving it.
Member #2001, are you saying we're to make utterly no distinctions and the only bottom line is getting "laid without haveing to romance and spending alot of money, time, and effort on a girl" no matter what the circumstances? If that's the case then by extension this board could have a section where mongers can set up wilding or rape parties, right? If we're to completely ignore legal or moral lines then why wouldn't that be ok? Shoot, we can all save money by strangling our sex workers after we're done as well...
There is only one kind of law posters here as a whole advocate breaking -- it's paid sex being illegal.
This thread is about morality -- it's the single most appropriate place on this forum to have a discussion such as this one. And I'll note that this discussion has been held in an adult way -- no one's here setting up lynch mobs or tracking someone down and shouting "rapist" every time the guy posts. Yes, there is outrage, but I've seen no flames or threats of personal retribution.
As a longtime poster in the Thai section, I was immensely distressed by the long and vitriolic flame war there, but that doesn't mean anything should go on WSG. RN has nailed it -- this kind of thing makes all of us look bad and simply provides ammunition to those who argue that P4P leads to an inevitable joyride down the moral slope.
I'm not some out-of-control rapist and I immensely dislike being lumped in with someone who is out mistreating and raping women in the same way I dislike being lumped in with pedophiles who go hunting for children they can pay to have sex with. And I'll be damned if I will willingly surrender my ability to object to such behavior because it might keep you or someone else from posting about such experiences.
I agree with JZ, this is a opinion forum and this is the place to discuss if it's rape or not. In most newpapers they have opinion pages, and they are as bad or even worst then anything written here.
I'm not condoning what Lefty did, if fact I said I didn't believe it.
I am simply stating an opinion that no jury would convict him, and most DA.s would throw this case out if she was a street walker or normal women who happens to be in a red light district.
Does anyone disagree that Lefty would walk? DH, would walk too if he fucked that passed out sex worker. I didn't see where she withdrew her consent. It seems to be it was a express and Implied verbal contract.
If some people want to get hot and bothered over a made up story and reactions to it, so be it.
You know what I still find shocking, and I know it's no joke: That RN, is against Mandatory AIDS/STD testing for sex workers. She wants to make is strictly voluntary.( talk about all the upside, with no downside for her friends)
PsyberZombie
09-09-04, 06:24
Pokey writes =
" I'm not condoning what Lefty did, if fact I said I didn't believe it.
I am simply stating an opinion that no jury would convict him, and most DA.s would throw this case out if she was a street walker or normal women who happens to be in a red light district.
Does anyone disagree that Lefty would walk? "
In fact , a large per·centage of Rape Claims are actually "Failure to Pay"
The usual scenario is that the guy pays the chick for sex ; then takes the money back when he's done
She then calls the Cops with a description of you and your vehicle [ including your Plate number ] and claims you abducted her at knife·point and forced her to blow you
You'll definitely get arrested ; but will you get convicted ??
The Kobe Case aside = her 35 Prostitution Arrests will NOT be admissable in most states
But even if you walk because she never showed up in court = yer gonna have a Rap Sheet now that shows you were once arrested for Kidnapping and First Degree Sexual Assault
... and in this day and age , where Employers and Land·lords run Credit and Criminal Checks on potential employees or tenants , this is gonna complicate your Life to No End
Folks,
If someone is convicted or not has little or nothing to do with the morality of the situation. If you take back your money (without force obviously) it may technically be theft, but you may feel justified since no service was rendered.
On the other hand, extracting your "contracted service" from someone unwilling or unable to consent is, IMHO just plain wrong. Sex work is intimate in a way that simple goods-for-compensation transactions will never be. We are not talking about a head of lettuce here.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Regarding the questions about what is ethical if an adult service provider got drunk with a monger and that monger decided he'd paid for sex, so went ahead and did it to her even though she was unconscious. I'd call that sexual assault, even though there may have been a previous agreement.
What prompts this thought is the tagline on a lot of Internet sites for escorts that basically says that you are buying time and company only and are not buying sex. The escorts put this line on the Web site to protect themselves from LE, because in many communities selling sex is illegal but there's no issue with selling time and company. Then, if sex happens (as it frequently does), it's because the escort liked the monger and decided to put out for him.
Also, Member #2001 made a comment about this board encouraging people to break the law by paying for sex and how is that different than the alleged sexual assault we've been discussing. I see a major difference.
Most of the members of this board are of the opinion that the selling of sexual favors should not be a crime because most times the buyer and the seller are consenting adults. So, while mongering may be a crime in many communities it is essentially a harmless interaction between two people and the laws need to be changed. The act of sexual assault, though, is taking something by force and most legal experts classify sexual assaults as violent crimes rather than crimes of passion.
Rolly Polly
09-09-04, 07:56
I never have, nor ever will, pick up a drunk SW because of this type of situation. I have had the opportunity many times to pick up have passed out SW's, but chose to drive on.
Dickhead, under your fact patern, I would not attack the guy for going through with the dead, but like yourself I would not do it.
The truth is that Lefty's situation was not a pay for play scenario and he clearly states that. he picked up a drunk chick that was not a SW with the intention of raping her.
This report will probably get buried WAYYYY back since this forum is red hot right now but here goes anyways.
Who would want to do it with a woman (SW or not) who was that drunk anyways. The stinky breath alone would be such a turn-off for me.
If I'm paying for it, I want to be having some fun, not babysitting some passed out skank who's probably going to puke all over my car. I can see it now, you get her home, take off her clothes and that's when you discover she's pissed herself.
What a turn-on (sarcasm).
Rock
Cash Works
09-09-04, 10:41
Well, I read Lefty's post, was rather offended by it left my own post on the Milwaukee board about my opinion of him based on his own "confession". After coming back here and reading the posts here, you folks may feel that I was out of line - so be it. But I can't be nearly as out of line as Lefty - even if he made up the entire story.
A lot of people were saying it's her fault for drinking too much. What if somebody spiked her drink? Rufis or Rohipnol (spelling?) or whatever that "date rape" drug is called could have been slipped in her drink & she may have been able to get away from the guys who spiked her drink, only to pull over when she realized she was too wasted to drive - then got picked up by Lefty the rapist when she was too incoherent to put up a fight or even realize what was going on. Whether Lefty spiked her drink, or somebody else spiked it or even if she just drank too much on her own - she didn't deserve what Lefty did to her in that motel room.
RN - I applaud you! I was going to add the "what if a guy was passed out drunk, robbed and butt fucked" but you beat me to it. As for payment, early on in my mongering career, I was always told that "if you don't pay yer wh*re, yer gonna bring bad luck on all yer mates" so, yeah, If you don't pay, it's a crime, or at best, you're bringing bad luck on yourself and all your mongering buddies.
I also managed to read the "Scarlett Alliance Objectives". They seem reasonable to me, but I'm sure that once the politicians get hold of things and try to legislate - they'll botch the job.
Pokey - I would hope that he would be convicted in any court in the USA - at no point in Lefty's post did he say that she implied consent - he picked her up when she was incoherent, with the intention of raping her when she was completely passed out.
Dickhead - I believe that it's still rape, unfortunately though, in the USA it may be hard to convict the monger due to general public opinion of streetwalkers. At best, it would be extremely bad taste to go through with the deed even after the money had changed hands because she was passed out. Wait for her to wake up & demand a refund. I really can't see the appeal of having sex with a corpselike woman - you'd be better off having a wank.
Profkiev - I'd say that it's the mongers fault for passing out. He's paid her for her time - if she didn't go with him, she could have been picked up by somebody who was sober. He chose to imbibe so much that he was unable to stay conscious and do the deed. She's entitled to take the money he paid her (no more) and leave because she came back with him intending to fulfill her end of the deal. Though, I agree that it would be nice if she stuck around to see if he wakes up - I wouldn't hold her to it though.
CW
RN, I'm not going to yell, but I'm going to disagree. While I do agree that SW have to have serious guts to go to the police in the case of non-payment, I disagree that it's somehow ok to pass on it being called rape.
In the precise same way that sex workers are looked at with a specific degree of societal disdain -- something I agree with you should change -- so too are rapists. even more radically. Being labeled as a rapist is far different than being labeled a thief, and theft of services is a very different scenario than rape. (There are also aspects of degree -- being labeled an armed robber is worse than bad as being labeled a pickpocket.)
I don't see how you can have it both ways: if sex workers are to be treated as service providers in the same way as other professions, then workers and customers who agree to a P4P scenario are no different than a physical therapist and a client agreeing to a session. I believe you've used this precise argument and analogy before yourself. If a client fails to pay a physical therapist it is a broken contract and theft of services. It is not assault, despite the fact the therapist used their body as part of the work. (Note that I am making a very clear distinction between this and taking services by force and without consent.)
You can argue over whether consent was given under false pretenses, in the same way a dangled promise of marriage that's withdrawn is used to gain consent, but that's fraud and not rape as the bottom line is that the sex itself was not non-consensual. That is the bright and important line on sexual assault and to wave your hands at it -- take it up with your government -- weakens your overall position, as you're then making Pokey's "what's real" argument.
Well, I understand your point regarding the intimacy aspect, but I'd still see it more as something like sexual robbery rather than assault. If a sex worker in engaged in sexual acts with the understanding that payment is involved, and consents to that arrangement, I don't see how the acts involved (penetration, risks, etc.) somehow change after the fact because payment is withheld or disappears. If I tell someone I love them and we have sex, and they figure out later I was just saying that to get into their pants, it means I'm a cad, but not a rapist. There was consent or there wasn't, there was thereby "force" or there wasn't, which is the line on sexual assault or rape. The context does absolutely change, but not the acts themselves. I'm obviously not arguing that a crime hasn't occurred in this case -- one has -- only that which one it is does make a difference. And I understand what you're saying about the thing being stolen not legally being able to be sold, but time for companionship can certainly be sold, and that was clearly stolen.
But it's also a rather difficult position to defend that something deserves to be treated like all other work except when it doesn't, as if you can legitimately make that argument, so can your opponents. If you want to argue that the act of sex is special and therefore special considerations should enter in, then you're essentially legitimizing your opponents' ability to argue the same thing -- that the act of sex is special and therefore this shouldn't be treated like any other profession. (Speaking here from a logical argument perspective.) It's legitimate to argue that there are unique aspects to the work, such as the need to protect minors or health issues, but saying at its core it's special undermines your overall argument.
Sorry to make you think too deeply RN! :) (I'll refrain from inserting an obvious stereotypical comment here lest my humor be misinterpreted by others.)
Let me suggest that your sense on this in some ways is congruent the some of outrage you find in the American Women section -- it's a "I went through all that and got jobbed?" aspect.
And I'll also note that your sense is also similar to what clients can have after a rushed or rip-off session -- the worker ends up not being a particular nice person, doesn't give a damn about your pleasure or satisfaction, clearly has contempt for you and is just about getting as much of your money as quickly as possible, says, "why haven't you come yet" two minutes into the session, and leaves impatiently with the exorbitant fee you've no doubt paid in anticipation of a superior session -- regardless of whether or not you've gotten any pleasure or even finished.
That's also degrading, you feel dirty and like a complete idiot, and it can feel like an assault -- but it isn't one.
And again, I understand where you're coming from regarding special aspects of the occupation, and agree, but saying "I just can't compare that to having someone's penis entering your body" is a different kind of argument and is not really about risk, and that's the one I said I feel undermines things by arguing that having sex itself involved changes things.
And now I'll shut up about it all for a while!
Psyberzombie, good point, regarding rapes claims are actually "failer to pay". Often times the sex worker will claim "RAPE" over a dispute over money. Yes, some mongers are Sons of Bitches, who after paying a hooker, will try to take the money back from her for no other reason then because they are stronger.( after the lust goes away, they say why did I do that, and then take the money back; the money was for little Jr's shoes.)
More often the Monger has a legitimate excuse for not paying the Hooker, because failure on her part of not living up to the verbal contract. This is why I always pay after fucking, or at least leave the money on the table but not allowing her to touch the money.
If the girl insists on the money first, I'll just say " get the fuck out of here". Sometimes this will bring me problems if it's a escort service. She'll say something like you still have to pay me $150 for the agency fee. I'll say no, and then she'll say either I'll call the cops, hotel, or the driver. ( I sometimes carry my gun for such encounters with drivers. crowbars will work too)
In Mexico, I know lots of mongers who constantly get ripped off by street workers, they promise everything and don't deliver.
Some of the chicas will even go so far and say you went over the time limit, pay me again, or else I'll call the cops that you raped me. The cops are all too willing to go along with this for bribe money.
This is why I'm advocating where prostitution is legalized a computer database; where we as mongers can post complaints against the girls when they try to cheat us along with current sex license information.
Gun? Crowbar? Man, Pokey, I'd definitely say we have different approaches to things!
Rolly Polly
09-10-04, 07:35
I carry a gun as well, but I never ask for my money back. The gun is for my protection because I stroll the streets of Miami and don't use the safer, but more expensive escort services.
If I'm not happy with the performance then I go about my business and take it as a loss and lesson learned. I don't know these chicks that I pick up so I am assuming the risk of getting a rip off artist or just a bad BJ.
It's like investing in the commodities markets. There is a 90% or higher chance that you are going to loose all your money, but you are willing to take the risk because if you get the good one then you will have a smile on your face for a long time. If you are not aware of the risk or not willing to take the potential loss then get out of the game, but don't try and take your money back or rape the girl because you didn't hedge you bets properly.
I'm a repeat customer and many of the Miami chicks know me very well so I figure the girl who rips me off or rushes the job will not get my business again. I've even gone as far as to stop to explain to some of these chicks that I "cut off" the reason they will not get my business and they always beg for a second chance because they see how often I cruise the neighborhood for action. I never give second chances and I think because of my "reputation" with the Miami SW's I rarely get a bad "date".
Actually, I only used the gun five or six times as it's very risky to get caught with the gun. It's really only a metaphor to be prepared and try to anticipate hookers moves.
Lets say you're in a nice hotel for me it's usually Las Vegas but it could be anywhere; you don't want to jack-off, so you call for a escort. Lets then say she comes to your hotel in a bitchy mood and says give me $150 then will talk. I'll just get on the phone right there and tell the agency that this girl is a ulgy ***** and send me another one. At times you'll have no choice but give her the money after you agreed to everything.
What do you do if she now says, I have to go to my car before fucking me. I'd say, ok but leave the money, and I'm not above showing her I'm a crazy asshole, don't fuck with me attitute.
It works, rarely had I actually had to physically take the money from her. I have had asshole drivers actually try to get me to give him $150, just because I told the hooker to take a hike.
Rolly Polly, you need to be a better investor, losing 90% of your money, Wow! I too like the repeat customer thing with a nice young tight sex worker. This way you don't have to worry about money, getting ripped off, hiding your wallet or worst bad service.
The downside is sometimes the girls start clinging to you, and expect you to only fuck them and start telling you sob stories so you'll give them more money. When they start acting like that it's time to move on, besides, I just love fucking a variety of women, not just one or two.
GettingTang
09-10-04, 14:23
Carrying a gun for mongering safety? Are you people mad in the head? This has bad news written all over it people.
Look, getting a bad date every now and then is just part of the cost of being a monger. Just write it off and move on! You can't go strong arming girls and making threats and fighting for money over lack of services. You do this and I can guarantee you nothing good will come of it.
I seriously question some of you people? A bad date from time to time is expected, in fact, it has to be expected, if you can't deal with this once in a while, then you should not be a monger at all. And carrying a gun, is nuts. If the cops pull up on you and find you horror mongering and packing a gun, you're in some serious shit! There is no reason you should ever need a gun. Stay away fro girls with pimps, do not go to "their location" and just use basic common sense. Idiots, packing guns for a car date.
Tang~!
You know, Pokey, I've never had any particular trouble simply by asking the agency the fees and rules -- saying, "Ok, what if the woman doesn't meet my specifications or isn't the way you describe her?" If I don't like the options, I don't use the agency. If the woman comes to the door and changes the game, out she goes. If someone else shows up -- sometimes a "driver" will expect to wait in the hallway of lobby -- then it's goodbye. Anything that smells like a rip-off and my money simply doesn't come out.
Of course the going to the car thing is baloney, and the money to the driver and all that crap. But there are numerous ways to handle things, with leaving the room or handing over cash never being one. My approach has always been, yes, definitely, let's have the police sort this out, in fact, hold on, I'm getting hotel security up here right now in the meantime. That invariably changes the tone of things immediately. Most mongers cower in fear at the idea that someone else is going to get involved, because they think to themselves, well, what I'm doing is illegal, I don't want to get in trouble. The con and rip-off artists take advantage of that.
I just figure it's my room, I'm a registered guest, and I have nothing to worry about. Hotel security is there working in my interests, not those of my "guests." Besides, have I actually done anything illegal at that point -- especially something that can be proven in the least? I have not. I'm not going to worry about a sex worker saying I called her escort agency for sex and she came over and now I told her to take a hike and won't pay, that's for sure.
I've got no problem paying a kill fee if I've agreed to it in advance -- the woman did after all come across town at my behest -- but thats ONLY if I've agreed in advance.
Rolly Polly
09-10-04, 14:52
Pokey, I agree with having an assertive "don't fuck with me" attitude as long as you are not derogatory or degrading. I don't haggle with prices, I give an offer for the service I am requesting and if it's not good then I say take it or leave it because I can find a SW that will accept my offer.
I should restate that I endulge in the street scene and don't use higher end ladies that would be escorts or 'dancers' so I run across "bad apples" at a higher rate.
I guess there is a point where the lady can cross the line and invoke the bad side of me, but that would never result in a rape or any form of violence. I would take the financial loss before getting violent. This excludes a lady that would try and mug me or pull a weapon on me because that would result in me pulling my pistol if need be.
I have 4 or 5 regular SW's I see here in Miami and then I grab the occational newbie to the streets when I see them appear and very very rarely have ever had a problem.
For once GT and I are in total agreement. Carrying a gun while mongering is nucking futz.
Rolly Polly
09-10-04, 15:27
GettingTang,
Perhaps you have not been in the situations that I have been in. I should tell you that if you travel the roads I monger on you and ask the local SW's about me you will get nothing but good reports, but I will not become complacent and stop protecting myself.
I have a concealed weapons permit so LE can fuck with me all day about mongering, but they cannot say a thing about the gun I carry in a very safe and legal manner.
I think that depending on your mongering situation you are assuming varying degrees of risk. In other words, the monger who exclusively sees escorts is generally the safest, but the monger who exclusively uses SW's, especially in areas like Miami, LA, New York, Detroit..etc, have a higher amout of assumed risk. Some mongers do a lot of mongering over seas, but since I have not had that opportunity as of yet I don't know what kind of risk there is although I am told by experienced overseas mongers that the risk is low if you are smart and do your homework.
My point is that if you cruised with me for a week you may, just may, see why I carry my pistol.
Hey, didn't the assult weapons ban expire yet? Dam I just love the 2nd amendment, now I can carry my assult weapon I purchased years back in the truck of my car. ( I'm starting to sound like a conservative now, don't know whats happening to me)
Joe, I'm sure you like fine hotels like me. What would you do if the girl who came to your room wasn't asian like you ordered, but a little chunky American, the kind CBGB Connisur, doesn't like, and she changed the rules on you. What would you do? Let's not forget about her driver, if you tell her "please leave" he tells you. "give her $150 dollars or else I'll kick you're ass."
Do you pussy out and give him $150, and write it off as GT says, "the cost of doing business;" and tell them both I'll never use your service again!
Getting Tang, I also agree with you on this one. Mongering with a gun makes no sense at all.
First, if a SW pulls a knife on you, do you really have time to reach under the seat, grab your gun, and use it to defend yourself. No. A gun in this instance will probably just get you hurt -- unless you monger with one hand on the gun at all times.
Second, If you get in an altercation with a SW and an officer finds a gun was used by you to get "leverage" you are going down. Instead of a mongering bust you will probably get charged with assault 1.
Last, Doesn't the need to carry a gun while mongering take the fun out of it? I've picked up close to two thousand SW's in the past 25 years and have never needed a firearm. I've mongered in Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Portland, and Phoenix. A couple of times one may have come in handy -- that is until the SW told the cops I threatened her with a hand gun.
Like I've said before: when I have to carry a weapon to monger -- it will be time to change hobbies.
Civ2000
No, Pokey, I don't pay a thing. I say, well, ok, let's just get hotel security up here and then the cops, and we'll sort things out. Then, if they still want to hassle over it, I do it.
The driver threat thing never bothers me, frankly. I'm a street kid from a bad town and I can take care of myself. Whatever they've got I've probably seen worse. :D
But the reality is it just never comes to that, as I don't get upset or flustered and am simply insistent that this is not going to happen. Being calm and adamant in situations like this tends to fluster people.
It also helps that I will have already told the service that I would send someone away if they were not what I was told.
To whom it may concern,
Has the thought ever crossed your mind/s that, if you really need to have a gun with you when you're doing your thing, maybe you're in the wrong place and dealing with the wrong kind of people.
Not trying to piss anyone off, but this recent topic concerning firearms has really got me surprised. It's not something I ever considered before. If I felt that it was necessary to be armed while I was mongering, I'd seriously consider giving the whole thing up.
Brings a whole new meaning to the term "shooting your load". :D
Rock
This is yet another reason why I don't make it a practice of using SWs. I've used SWs a couple of times, but worried more about them leaving drugs in the car than me being hurt (I'm a rather large former bouncer, so I don't usually get messed with). I worried more about violence when I drove a cab. As I've grown older, I've limited my infrequent mongering forays to incall escorts and AMPs/CMPs (Caucasian MPs), just because I deal with fewer strung-out druggies and I get much better service. I've never carried a gun (in fact I don't own one), and my only weapon might be a fishing fillet knife in the back of my truck (with the rest of the fishing gear) or a pocketknife. Neither knife is where I can grab it without a big problem.
Civ2000, remember we can't quit this hobby,or we don't want to.
I'm sorry I talked about the gun things, it's not a big part of my life. If fact where I do 80% of my mongering Mexico, guns are illegal in Mexico, you could get in big trouble; there I carry a switch blade, In Mexico you can get a great knife, but the knife was mainly for the Bandidos, if a girl in Mexico cheats me, because the prices are cheap I'll just cuss at her in spanish.( you can get in trouble in Mexico if caugh with a knife, but a $50 bribe should get you out of any trouble)
I think I retired from the streets of the US, in fact all last year I don't think I picked up one street walker.( I'm proud of myself)
The gun thing was mainly for high end prostitution, because there you could lose lots of money, and I had more problems with escorts and drivers then anywhere else in this life we lead.
I rarely took a gun with me for the streets, but when I did it was in South Central Los Angeles, home of the gang bangers, hood rats, crinimal low lifes, and yes drug infested black and latina SW's. I use to get a great adrenaline rush just cruising in this area. Picking up a hood rat, and fucking her in my car in a dark alley was the ultimate. I felt I needed a gun at times here, because it seemed everyone else had a weapon, just about all the girls had knives or a pimp near by.
Getting ripped off by a prostitute is not the number one problem. A sex worker will try to rip me off maybe 1 out of 10 times, mostly trying to steal money from my wallet, or promise me something like a BJ but then doesn't do it.
The number one problem is just bad sex! UP to 50% of the time the sex is nothing I'd write home mother about. Either the girl has a loose pussy, bored with her job, or what happens in Mexico a lot is not experienced, and just stares at the walls.
MY next topic is how I try to get around the bad sex.
Member #2001
09-12-04, 05:57
Joe Zop
I think people should write what ever they want to on theis board and I like his posts on the Milwaukee board even if they are not true, but I dont understand why someone would make up stories like that. I dont know what the motive would be, so I entd to believe them. One reason I prowl this sight is to read about personal exploites from punters. I dont care if they are real, but I tend to thisn they are.
If someone wants to write about gang rape, kidnapping, or murder I would be interested to reading those posts also. Its not up to me as to weather you or LE believe its true or not. I will still find them all entertaining and I really dont have to worry about what other people think about me, or if they find me guilty by association or not. I dont have to answer to anyone but myself. Besides I get the feeling that some of you out there would like to do nothing better then to ban everyone here according your own personal code of morals. I am glad that its not the case here.
Member 2001:
While I appreciate your opinion that almost all posts have value, even those suspect of being fiction, I would suggest that the idea behind this site is not simply titillation for the curious.
In this particular thread, we are (or should be ;)) discussing the morality of the hobby. If Joe Z cannot express his opinions here, then where?
Personally, I feel violence has no place, or should have no place in a mutually agreed encounter. Like almost every human endevour, courtesy and civility goes a long way.
At all events, I hope you enjoy reading posts and continue to make contributions; we are all the richer for them.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Member #2001, I see a distinct difference between someone making up stories and posting about actual experiences -- I'm here for getting and sharing information, as per the stated purpose of WSG, not to read bad versions of "American Psycho." There are plenty of places where people can read or share sexual fantasies, such as the alt.sex.stories newsgroup. Jackson has clearly defined the parameters of his domain here.
I find nothing "entertaining" about hearing someone's actually engaging in rape, murder or pedophilia (something else I imagine could be added to your list of "entertainment") and I'm certainly not going to worry in the least if you feel my oppressive personal code of ethics is talking when I say people who engage in them should not only be banned but imprisoned. I'm a fairly radical free-speech advocate (I've been party to a lawsuit on the subject that made it to the Supreme Court) but that doesn't mean there still aren't standards and limits. People posting fiction on WSG should be either banned or relegated to a thread for fiction, (IMHO, that's obviously Jackson's call) and if they're posting about actual experiences or rape or murder they should be arrested.
The fact that some of us happen to think laws against prostitution are misguided doesn't mean we all think it's a good idea to throw laws about violence toward other people out of the window or don't still believe in civil society.
Joe Zop; I couldn't add much to your statment I totally agree with you on the purpose of this board as well as your thoughts on people posting of rape and murder.
However the age of consent in each persons state vary's and should be taken into account.
Posting of sex with minors is in general wrong, and is not permitted.
" guns are illegal in Mexico, you could get in big trouble; there I carry a switch blade,"
" My point is that if you cruised with me for a week you may, just may, see why I carry my pistol"
"now I can carry my assult weapon I purchased years back in the truck of my car
" remember we can't quit this hobby, or we don't want to"
I guess this is the TRUE meaning of Sex Addiction - not being able to to quit a "hobby" despite being in life threatening situations. You guys need to find a new hobby fast or at least find a safer place to do it. Loading down with weapons for a fun night on the town is crazy. Will end up in disaster for you or someone else. As others have advised, "never carry a firearm unless you are prepared to use it" and "if you use a gun, you may win the battle, but you'll certainly lose the war"
" If someone wants to write about gang rape, kidnapping, or murder I would be interested to(in) reading those posts also. I will still find them all entertaining and I really dont have to worry about what other people think about me, or if they find me guilty by association or not. I dont have to answer to anyone but myself. Besides I get the feeling that some of you out there would like to do nothing better then to ban everyone here according your own personal code of morals"
Dude, Since when is "gang rape, kidnapping and murder" just someone's personal code of morals? I would hope they are a universal set of morals. That you find them "entertaining" is one of the scariest things I have ever read here. Yeah, Hitler and John Wayne Gacy were so damn entertaining.
Please join Lefty and seek professional help immediately . . .
Cash Works
09-12-04, 14:47
Webcams,
Stick to women who are 18 or older. Better yet, play it safe and don't touch them if they're under 21.
While the "age of consent" may vary from state to state, I think you'll find, if you looked into it, that p4p with anyone under the age of 18, even if she's over the "age of consent" will get you a more severe penalty than merely having sex with her (they'd probably throw in other charges like "child endangerment" or "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" and possibly "statutory rape") - she's still a minor until she turns 18, no matter what the "age of consent" may be.
Also, "age of consent" is not necessarily as clear-cut as you may think. In some (most?) states, there is an age difference rule that goes along with "age of consent". For example - let's say the "age of consent" is 16 - it may be legal for an 18 or 20 year old to have sex with a 16 year old girl, but a guy who is 21 or older may be risking jail for statutory rape.
CW
Hey Folks,
Nobody missing me I'm afraid. This post just to let you know that I am alive so for.
Yogesh
Prokofiev, says to Lefty in the Wisconsin tread:
"And Lefty, for what it's worth, don't listen to the naysayers!
I like you better as Ward Cleaver than Norman Bates . ."
Lefty, was asking members if they ever jacked-off to June Cleaver in Leave it to Beaver? He then goes on to tell a joke how Ward Cleaver, after banging his son beaver, goes and gets a BJ from June, who complains his dick smells, obviously a joke in bad taste, yet Prokofiev finds funny and defends Lefty.
If Prokfiev doesn't find Lefty entertaining, why is he there posting on that forum? All of his post are from Spain, Argintina, and Central Mexico, yet he finds time to monger in shit hole Wisconsin? ( they look for SW's in K-Mart parking lots)
Prokofiev, goes on to say that guys who can't quit the hobby should look for a new hobby or a safer area.
I'd say that Prokofiev, is very hyporcritical, and I don't think I'll take his advice, I don't even think he'll take his own advice.
I think those of you who find Lefty's post criminal instead of just crying to Jackson, should instead file a complaint with the Wisconsin police, and tell them a crime has been committed. I'm sure they will enjoy a good laugh.
JZ, I loved that movie "American Pycho" especially that one sex scene when he is doing both girls. After that movie, I noticed I did more threesomes after that. Supreme Court! I wonder what did you do now? I hope at least in envolved sex somehow?
Pokey,
Once again, you have managed to get things ass-backwards. If you had actually read the series of posts I was referring to, you would have seen that Lefty's moron cheering section was chastising him for having a girlfriend and laying off the sexual assaults they are so fond of. They were jumping on him for being "soft". I would rather he jerk-off to June Cleaver than anally rape another woman. The "don't listen to the nay-sayers" post was meant for those idiots pushing him to commit yet another crime for their entertainment . . . not in reference to those who find his behavior unacceptable.
And I will read and post wherever I want. No need to explain it to you . . .
-P
Oh, hey, the fact that you don't disagree with someone all the time hardly invalidates your opinion when you do. And I just don't think the issue is whether or not someone is entertaining.
The point is hardly one of filing a police report -- which is useless without a victim complaint. It's whether or not certain kinds of posts are valid things within the context of WSG.
Pokey, unfortunately I can't give a lot of details about the Supreme Court thing as it would probably make it too easy to out me. Sex was involved, but indirectly.
Greetings all,
I read Looking for Lefty's posts in the Wisconsin section. These posts seem to be the product of a low-class individual with borderline sociopathic tendencies. This is whether or not the aforementioned events actually occured.
This guy definitely finds satisfaction in degrading women by taking advantage of them or by putting them into humiliating situations. The same applies to his so-called "fans" who take enjoyment from reading his posts.
Whether or not his activities legally qualify as rape or assault is beside the point. This isn't the kind of thing we need to have posted here.
Just my own opinion, but I've always thought of WSG as a place where guys who are looking for a good time can get the best information and share their pics and stories.
Rock
Prokofiev, you were only on Wisconsin tread to help the poor future victims of Lefty crimes and trying to stear him in the right direction and against those bastards who were encouraging to commit crimes because they loved his posted reports so much.
And I will take my gun and fuck wherever I want. No need to explain to you...
Hypocrites don't you just love them?
Member #2001
09-12-04, 22:48
Glad to see that I am not the only one here that feels this way. I was beginning to thing that I was the only sane voice in a sea of insanity.
Pokey. love the post about calling the cops. If they think that someone on this board then they should call the cops and stop using up bandwith.
I think I will I will layoff this thread for a while nd just read all the interesting posts (fiction or nonfiction).
In the interest of getting somewhat back on topic, I pose a question to the group.
Have you ever wanted to, or tried, to "save" a girl from her profession? (No lawyer jokes please ;))
In a one case, many years ago, I wanted to "help someone" and was very quickly disabused of my näive notions of gallantry. That sound of the "shot heard ´round the world" was me popping my head out of my ass.
Comments? Experiences anyone?
Cheers,
Sporadic
RN, That was the popping sound you heard.
It was either a case of "rescue from what?" meaning I was a pompous ass and presuming I knew how one should live, or, as it turned out, salvation meant supplying extra funds like a näive fool.
Could it be I was the only one ever simultaneously afflicted with both conditions? Granted, I was young and idealistic back then, but I kind of doubt it.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Actually, I've tried such "rescue" on four different occasions. Twice it seemed to work, twice once not.
But let me be clear -- on all occasions I was asked for help, repeatedly and sincerely, and it was clear to me that the requests were genuine as opposed to a con (I've had numerous attempts to have those run on me, and no, I'm not interested in being one more guy on a string.)
The two times it didn't work was with two women who had substance abuse problems. In both cases I helped get them into a rehab program, some level of stability and security (one more than the other, as the other never really got stable) and both basically ended up back in the same situation because the rehab didn't take. Prostitution was not the core issue -- it was means to an end. (One still makes me sad, as she was a long-time good friend with whom I was never a customer, a highly intelligent person. But she went back and forth with herion and methadone and could never get free.)
As far as the other two situations -- both were ambitious women who felt trapped in doing the work they were doing and wanted out. One was already going to school, the other wanted to and was smart enough to do so. I helped the former with tuition, (and saw clearly that was what the money went for) study skills and prioritizing and she made it through school and into another field. The latter I helped with organizing her life and habits, her resume and interviewing skills, and she got another kind of job with the idea of saving money and heading to school. I don't know if she ever managed school, but she was still working the job two years later when last I ran into her.
The key in all cases was that money had very little to do with things -- it was more the kind of personal help you'd give anyone.
But as RN so aptly says, there's no rescue if there's no distress.
Rolly Polly
09-14-04, 14:48
RN is right with the "save me from what" question. There is no saving from the sex work industry. Those that need saving are really the SW's who use the industry to pay for a habit. In these cases it's a saving from drugs that is needed, but good luck doing that.
I guess the one scenario I can think of is a runaway that gets sucked in by a pimp and eventually wants to escape, but is to afraid to do so. I've never met anyone in that situation, but I would like to think most mongers would do what they can to help.
Joe:
Your situation was obviously different, and I salute you for helping a person in need who asks for it. I am privately proud to have played a small part in assisting a couple people that way. Good feeling.
As for the substance abuse, yes, that is sad, and not limited to disadvantaged persons. I have known PhD´s with everything going for them, who have thrown their life away on drugs or alcohol. Not much to do there.
I guess my question was one of attitude. There must be some point between being a sucker and being judgemental. Perhaps you said it all when you limited yourself to people who asked for help. Or are we back to RN´s favorite topic of provider´s rights and benefits?
Do the "Minnie the mootchers" out there have a counterpart "John with a heart of gold?"
Since my "popping my head out" episode 20 years ago, I simply mind my own damn business, but I still sometimes feel like I would like to help out. Silly, I will admit, but nonetheless true.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Rolly Polly:
I think you are right on the mark. I hope every decent person would help a runaway. I have never run into that sort of thing, but agree that is a special case, requiring extraordinary measures.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Sporadic, there are lots of times when things have tugged at my heart strings when talking with sex workers, but most of the time it comes in the fashion of "I really wish I didn't do this; I wish I had someone to take care of me." That, combined with the afterglow of a sexual encounter, is where I think most guys get tugged in -- and that's where you get the joy of being an abused sucker.
Thankfully I've never fallen into that particular trap.
And a hearty amen on the substance abuse side of things. Apologies for the fact that this is rather obtuse to the topic, but I remember a guy I know -- a highly educated, successful black man, who told us all he had decided to try crack because he felt he needed to understand what was happening to his community. This was a throught-out, conscious action that everyone, including myself, tried to talk him out of taking. He explained that he simply didn't feel he could talk to affected people without coming at it from a position of personal knowledge. You can guess the rest -- he did it once, got hooked, thew close to everything away, and it took him several years to get more or less free from the yoke. And this was one of the strongest people I know in terms of character. I look at my own encounters with drugs (which were regular back in the day) and am happy for my metabolism and dumb luck.
Sporadic says:
Have you ever wanted to, or tried, to "save" a girl from her profession?
I would strongly advice against it, because that's like trying to domesticate a wild animal. In the end you will be doomed to failure, and just like a wild animals do, you could get hurt(feelings) or bit,( ripped-off) You would have a much better chance of getting a Leopard to change its spots, then getting a prostitute to change professions. I'm not saying it can't be done, maybe with Religion or drug treatments programs they have a chance, but with mongers, pimps, and sex exploiters, no I don't think it could be done.
Regarding runaways, By definition you must be talking about young girls, 18 and under. That's a taboo subject here, so I won't talk about it, but I wouldn't trust a monger with a runaway. Remember how I talked about the Fox guarding the henhouse before-not good!
I've also attempted to "rescue" a couple of SW's. Both were heroin addicted and I believe they both genuinely wanted to quit. I let them kick at my house, fed them, took care of them, and helped them get into treatment. Both times however they bailed. It usually takes a week or so to get into treatment here and they both ripped me off to get their drugs to get "well". I don't really blame them as I know first hand how intense the cravings are and how sick you feel.
I finally realized that the enormous problems these gals faced were WAY more than I could handle. When the pain of addiction and the SW lifestyle become greater than the pain of quitting -- they do. There are plenty of great programs available for the SW that wants help and they don't need any John's help getting into them.
All they have to do is walk into about a dozen different social service agencies here in town and ask for help. In fact, they offer all types of post-release substance abuse help while you are in jail. It would be nice to help a SW, but now I leave that to the professionals.
One last thing. One of the first things they tell you when you go to rehab is to let go of all your former contacts. One SW I was particularly good friends with, called me from treatment and said her counselor said it was a terrible idea to keep in contact with a former customer, and it would probably cause her to relapse. And then went on to say how it was guys like me who kept gals like her strung out on drugs. She started describing me with words like: co-dependant, enabler, etc.
And all I did was feed her, clothe her, drive her around, and help her. I didn't even ask for sex.
Never again!
Sporadic, That second sound that was heard around the world was not an echo. It was my head also popping out of my ass.
Civ2000
Greetings all,
What a breath of fresh air. It's nice to see a new topic going red hot like this one and everyone seems to be getting along like we used to. I tried to save a girl about 2 and a half years ago. Not exactly in the way you might think though.
I met her on a street corner one summer afternoon while I was out for a bike ride. She was black, in her early 20's and soooo attractive. It was pretty obvious that she was a prostitute. Normally, I'm not all that into picking a girl from off the street, but she was exactly the kind of girl I would have wanted for a girlfriend (except for that one little thing of course).
We did a little negotiating and I was struck by how little she was asking in exchange for her services. When we got back to the place she was staying at, I couldn't help but notice what a dump it was. As if that wasn't bad enough, she had this loser boyfriend/pimp who was leeching off of her.
So I suggested to her that she had the body and the looks to do a lot better than she was being on the street. I told her that she should join an escort agency and then she'd be getting 2, 3, even 4 times as much money for her efforts. She seemed a little bit interested, but I think she kind of lacked the initiative and self-esteem to actually go ahead and try it.
I tried my best to convince her that she could do it. I even called a couple of the local agencies on her behalf. They were interested and said that all she had to do was give them a call herself.
So what happened? Last time I saw her, she was still hustling $20 dollar blowjobs on the same street corners. Haven't seen her at all in the last year. I think the moral here is, if they're gonna get "saved", they have to want the help in the first place. They also have to be willing to put in some effort themselves if they want to make a difference in their life.
Rock
Pokey:
You would have a much better chance of getting a Leopard to change its spots, then getting a prostitute to change professions. ...but with mongers, pimps, and sex exploiters, no I don't think it could be done.I detect just a smidgen of judgemental attitude here. I will grant the need for treatment of the underlying cause, perhaps substance abuse, bad family situation or whatever, but I do not agree that providers are "of a type" that can never change, or for that matter need to.
I also mildly resent the implied slam on mongers in general. I think you would be surprised at some of the people who hobby.
Will you accept the premise that providers and mongers are people, not one dimensional beings?
I accept your position on runaways, but I would suggest that the subject was not at all sinister, as I think you suspect.
My only experience with SW´s was 23 years ago, since then it has been escort-types in about 9 different countries. Substance abuse is usually not the issue with these providers, it seems to be a case of cashing in on their assets while they can, to supplement income.
Cheers,
Sporadic
PsyberZombie
09-15-04, 06:58
This notion that prostitutes and strippers are "Victims" who are "forced" into these professions ; and need to be "rescued" from same , makes me *laugh*
It's a whole lot easier for a woman in our Society to collect Welfare ; get Section 8 housing ; or food stamps ; or other Social Services , than it is for an able-bodied guy to
Yet , unless you're a Marxist Professor of Sociology , nobody claims that a Man is a "Victim" who needs to be "Rescued" because he was "forced" to , say , Rob a Bank
These gals do what they do By Their Own CHOICE
.... because let's face it = Crime does indeed Pay ; and Prostitution is a Lot Easier than having to get out of bed every morning and work 40 hours a week and be De·graded by a Boss instead of a John
Zombie: (great handle by the way)
I am the first to agree with your comment about being a victim. Society today seems to want to absolve everyone of all personal responsibility. There are, however, persons involved with what amounts to slavery, particularly outside the U.S. Certainly they would qualify as victims under any rationale.
I guess I have never run into the "lazy" kind of provider. Most, as I mentioned were very actively trying to make money. Quite enterprising in fact. I would suggest that Darwin will sort out the truly lazy, as the wares for sale tend to decrease in value over time.
It almost sounds like you could cross-post this to the American women thread ;)
Cheers,
Sporadic
Cash Works
09-15-04, 10:01
i can't say that i've ever actively tried to "rescue" any providers. however, when i was living in brasil about 20 years ago, there was this street kid (her family generally lived on the beach, only occasionally actually had a house/shack - and believe it or not, they weren't miserable) who was 9 or 10 years old when i first met her. she knew most of the providers in the area & would point out the ones to avoid (thieves & psychos) and it was pretty obvious that she was in awe of their lifestyle. no, at that time, she wasn't in the game as an **** provider, though some could argue that she sort of worked as an **** "madamme", though, as far as i know, she didn't receive a percentage from her introductions. she was sort of like everyone's really cool little sister.
anyway, over the years, there were a number of people who tried to "improve" her life - she was "placed" with 2 or 3 brasillian families who sent her to school and gave her a nice place to live, but this never lasted more than a couple of months because she preferred the street/beach. she was even "adopted" by a family in florida & lived there for about 6 months before she demanded that they return her to fortaleza so she could go back to living on the street/beach (i don't know all the details, but apparently, the adoption wasn't finalized at that point and her birth parents were still alive & well in brasil, so they sent her back).
the last time i saw her was about 15 years ago. she had hooked up with a group of providers, who struck me as the type that she would warn us away from (psycho thieves). anyway, she was in the game at that point as an ****d provider (she would have been about 14 at that time, but if i didn't know her, i probably would have thought she was at least 18), she seemed to be very happy with her lifestyle and said they were heading to rio the next day & i never saw her again.
i guess the best analogy would be to compare her to a wild animal. she was happy when she was living on the beach, but placing her with a family with a house, rules and school was just like putting her in a cage. she didn't drink or do drugs, she wasn't a runaway, she just really wanted to be a prostitute because, in her mind, they were the most sensual women in the world & that was the role model she aspired to emulate. the only way to "rescue" her would have been to literally put her in a cage - lock her up in a school somewhere that she couldn't escape from until she was 18. even then, though, i'm sure that she would have gotten into the life as soon as she was "released", but at least she would have been of age.
cw
I met a gal who had been a prostitute off and on but who had a regular job when I met her. Bear in mind this is in Argentina after the peso crash. The job was dwindling away due to the poor economy. At the end of my first visit, during which we had spent a few days together, she asked me to "loan" her the money to buy a sewing machine (she is a seamstress). I got her the machine but did not really expect to get paid back.
The next time I visited, I brought her some orders for leather jackets, and I advanced her the money to buy the leather. Some of the jackets she finished before I left but others she did not. While I was back in the states she called me and asked if she could sell the remaining leather. By this time her regular job was completely gone. I said okay but that she would be throwing away the profit on the remaining jobs if she could not replace the leather and finish the jackets before my next visit. She couldn't.
Then I was down there for an extended period of time and I offered to let her live with me. I told her I would pay the rent and the utilities and buy food but would not give her any cash, and not to ask for any. She had been saying that if she had a place where she could not just sew but bring customers to design outfits (her apartment was too shitty to do that in), maybe she could make a go of it. But after we moved into the apartment I saw no real effort on her part to do that.
Anyway we stopped being lovers and were basically just roommates, and finally she started going out on the street at night. I think she thought if I saw her do that a few times I would break down and give her some money so she did not have to do that. But I did not care. Really I think I was trying to rescue her from having to live in her shitty apartment, not trying to rescue her from prostitution. That didn't work either as she is still living in her shitty apartment with no heat or hot water and one bathroom for seven families. She just had 9 tumors removed from her stomach and ovaries and 7 were cancerous. I let her stay in my apartment while I was in Europe for 2 weeks so she could recuperate in a place with heat, hot water, and an elevator. She supposedly can't have sex for 6 months so I suspect she'll be giving a lot of BJs.
Now I tell her I will help her in any way I can that does not involve money changing hands, and I do. By the way, drugs are not an issue here. I don't personally believe anyone can rescue anyone from anything, whether it's prostitution, drugs, obesity, abusive relationships, or whatever. Motivation has to come from within.
More recently I was asked by a favorita to pay her tuition to culinary school but I said no. I might have said yes if the "relationship" wasn't already starting to fade.
So the question would be, Are we...
A) Presumptious SOB´s for not minding our own business?
B) Just trying to be decent human beings, even if we know that we will probably fail?
C) Suckers?
D) None of the above, the people we try to help are ingrates.
Cast your vote here. Write-in votes welcome. If you do not want to clutter the thread with votes, send me a PM and I will tally and post completely unscientific results.
Seriously, Dickhead makes a good point, I have tried to help out some younger people at work (the catchy phrase is mentoring) and I do not know if some them are just ungrateful b*stards, or simply that I should MYOB.
The concensus seem to lean towards being presumptious. We seem to agree that "helping out" will not solve substance abuse, mental health or societal issues, So what is left? Butinski-ism.
Cheers,
Sporadic
To me most of this is irrelevant in terms of whether or not someone's a sex worker. There are plenty of people who want to change their lives or change their jobs. Am I a presumptious SOB if I lend a hand there? I've certainly done so with many friends and acquaintences when asked. And of course the odds suck on helping someone -- prostitute or otherwise -- who wants help with problems exacerbated by drug use. But those folks are also generally the ones most in crisis, so it's tough to just turn away.
There are a lot of people who wish out loud for changing their lives. Not many actually can do it, even if they truly want to, regardless of their intentions. Sure, it's something heard a lot from people in situations with low social status, but not only there. And with sex workers we're usually hearing it pre or post-coitus, so our oxytocin is going and we're feeling more bonded.
As far as mentoring, I think the same rule applies -- people have to ask for it, as opposed to have it imposed on them.
So I guess I'd vote for E) All of the above -- depending on the situation.
Mystic Pimp
09-15-04, 15:43
Hi, I am a new poster to this section of the WSG Forum, and I don't know if anyone in here has covered this topic, so here goes.
I'm a sports fan, and throughout parts of the day I get to listen to some of the sports talk shows. In a way, many of these millionaire athletes are like regular guys, pretty much having to "pay-for-play". Is there much of a difference between sports figures sleeping with women they barely know or meet, and giving them "gifts" or "hush money" and regular guys trolling for coochie? If anything, it's no different from a guy having to take a woman out on a date, buying her dinner, taking her out, in the hopes of getting some at the end of the night.
These women (I would assume it's mostly women that are against prostitution) would rip street girls, escorts, etc. but would be the same women who would throw themselves at a celebrity or sports star if they could get something out of it.
Prostituiton is going on all the time, everywhere, in all walks of life. Not necessarily the notorious kind, but most of us are out there trying to find people to help ourselves get ahead, whether it's to get more money, or more sex, or whatever else we desire.
MP
Cash Works
09-16-04, 09:03
MP,
I think your question is basically about what I've brought up a couple of times in the last few months - "Prostitution is the only honest way to get laid". In our society and in most countries around the world that I've had the opportunity to visit, whether it's a clear cut case of P4P or a "normal" relationship (theoretically not P4P), the man is expected to pay - the difference between the two is that Prostitution is brutally honest - "you pay me $$ & I provide the following services", where the "normal" relationship has no clearly defined rewards - many women will tease you along with promises of sexual favors that may or may not be delivered - it's virtually guaranteed, however that you won't get laid if you don't spend any money on her or do loads of favors, etc.
CW
http://sfweekly.com/issues/2004-09-08/feature.html/1/index.html
. This story is long, but it's an interesting history of sex work in modern San Francisco strip clubs.
Nice link Oosikman, very interesting stuff. Nice to know that fees levied on dancers at strip places by the clubs have been rules illegal, as the whole independent contractor stuff was always bogus, just a way of club owners upping profits by taking advantage of the women working there.
Here's a link to a pretty good page that presents some comparisons between Russian and American women. There's a few good points in there.
The spacing is a little wonky so it might take a while to read through the whole thing.
http://www.talkaboutsupport.com*********alt.support.divorce/messages/503450.html
FYI
Rock
Mystic Pimp
09-17-04, 01:45
Oosikman:
This is the correct link URL:
http://sfweekly.com/issues/2004-09-08/feature.html/1/index.html
RN,
While I will agree that many guys may be thinking of sex vice philanthropy, I have helped 3 workers (2 different maids, and no, I never touched them) and one gardener/handyman, and no less than four former students get set up in business.
Sometimes they needed capital, sometimes just a word in the right ear or possibly a job for an unemployed spouse.
When I see someone who is working way below their potential, being held back by crapulous circumstances, yes, I try to help out. Often to my own benefit; loyal employees are rare these days.
Do I cruise the streets looking for people to save? No.
If in the course of my daily life I come to know someone who could use a hand, and I can do so, I will extend it.
Can any of you honestly say you have never helped someone out of a jam?
Cheers,
Sporadic
Cash Works
09-18-04, 10:41
RN,
Sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience. I have to admit, that most of us don't have very well honed "reading skills" when it comes to the opposite sex - I'm pretty sure that I've missed out on a lot of sex because of this - I've always been rather cautious when dealing with non-pro's.
I, for one, have never fooled around with colleagues at work - Originally, that was due to the fact that I always had "in the field" (out of the office) positions and in my industry, those positions were very male dominated and most of the time, there weren't any women to fool around with at work (but there was usually a brothel nearby). Then, when we started getting women working "in the field", I was generally their supervisor - as much as I might be interested, I'm not going to jeopardize my carreer by sleeping with a subordinate (there's always the brothel - a much safer option).
The comment about the "tease" was pretty much an observation on American dating relationships. I don't know too many guys who are going to spend loads of money on dates with a woman if they aren't interested in having sex with her. I also believe that women understand this and they should be honest with their date and tell them that sex is not going to happen, if they aren't interested in having sex with them - if they still want to go out with the guy on a platonic basis, they should at least offer to pay half of the bill. If that's OK with both parties, then there shouldn't be a problem. I've had a number of platonic relationships that were quite enjoyable (intellectually), I've also had some that just didn't work out because I just got too turned on by being with her and the knowledge that having sex with her was out of the question was a bit overwhelming - so I found it best for me to not pusue any sort of relationship. I've also found that many of these platonic relationships lead to sexual relationships with friends of my platonic friend - sometimes this caused problems, other times it didn't.
The "tease" problem arises when there aren't any ground rules - the guy is expecting sex, she knows it but chooses to just use him as bodyguard/banker, with no intention of delivering on his expectations. I actually see this a lot in America - it's limited to the dating scene, but carries over into marriage as well.
OK, shoot me, I'm a pragmatists, not a romantic.
CW
RN,
Touche! It's so true that we see what we want to see and don't see what we don't want to see. That's why one person's version of the truth is so often different that anothers'. What we think is the truth is really a flexible perception based on need.
It's probably the basis for so many misunderstandings between men and women since our needs are somewhat different. I really liked the way you were able to list out the way he saw things and then compare it to the way you saw it from your own point of view.
It just shows what a fine line divides a failed encounter from a successful one. A few genuine compliments and a little bit of patience can make the difference. Maybe that's why some guys seem to get all the action, hmmmmm.
Rock
RN,
Cash works has IMHO the right idea, workplace romance is tabu, but then again I have watched many a "business trip" turn into a sex vacation for people of both sexes.
I, like CashWorks, am very, very careful with reading "signals." Indeed I will pass on anything that does not literally drop into my lap. P4P does have it´s advantages.
The only two reasons I can think of why you might find me adorable are...
1. You are mildly delusional.
2. You have never seen me naked. ;)
Certainly no offense taken about helping people, but I have been the beneficiary of guidance, kindness and caring from too many people in too many countries to toss the whole human race in the bin, as it were.
As for your incedent with the cad, how dare you walk about in public with a serviceable vagina! Of course you were asking for it!
Cheers,
Sporadic
RN:
Oh, I'm not too concerned. It happens to me all the time. I guess if I'm enjoying someone's company I like to let them know it - and often it's misconstrued as flirting.
Well there you are. Being friendly while carrying a concealed vagina. You felonious teaser you!
While I will admit to making many decisions with the little head, I feel the root problem here is forgetting that we are dealing with sentient beings here, not just sexual organs.
As many here seem to agree, P4P is the best way to avoid de-humanizing sporadic (sorry!) encounters.
It meets the RN communications test; up front, clear and to the point, and hopefully mutually beneficial.
Cheers,
Sporadic
The problem I have with your prescription, Cash Works, is this -- while I'll certainly have to be attracted to a woman to ask her out, and while that generally includes on some level the desire to sleep with her, that's not the same thing as saying I want to sleep with her right now no matter what. For all I know, she's a looney-tunes Fatal Attraction type or someone who basically wants to figure the fastest way to get my money and credit cards in her hand. For all I know she's dumb as an already-cemented brick and I can only put up with that so long, or she's extremely bright but extremely bitter, messed up, neurotic, whatever. Maybe I see her as someone I'd like to bang for a really long time but my sense is she's out to hook me and then break my heart, or I'm out to do her only once and she'd be the type to get hooked and heartbroken. A date is a means of trying to figure that stuff out.
And if that's my agenda, then naturally hers can and should be the same -- presumably to say yes to my invitation she should find me at least somewhat attractive and interesting, and a date is a way of figuring out whether or not I'm nothing but a horny misogynist, a wife-beater, a guy who'll say anything to get into her pants and then dump her immediately regardless of whether she'd like to think in terms of a relationship, etc., etc.
But either person should be able to say, whoa, I don't think I've figured this out yet or, whoa, I've figured it out and it's not going the way I need it to go. That's not teasing, that's self-preservation.
I realize that complicates the "I take you to dinner, you undress after dessert" prescription, but in my book real relationships both don't and shouldn't run by P4P rules. I've got too many friends who ended up in miserable marriages or nasty divorces all because it was all about getting into bed as quickly and efficiently as possible, consequences be damned. Heck, we were just talking about the tendency of guys to try to "rescue" hookers, many with substance abuse problems -- if that's a dumb idea, how is it smarter to date and then fuck without figuring out what might be lurking in your own bed come morning?
And RN, might I suggest that at the very least you should stop "beginning to feel old and tired and ugly" (your comment circa the beginning of the month) if you are still managing to get at least two guys in two days to want to jump your bones, regardless of the specifics and outcome? As Shakespeare wrote, "Men at some time are masters of their fates, The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings." So figger out what you want, girl, and get it!
And which problem would that exacerbate, RN? The teasing problem or the not getting laid problem? :D I can guarantee you that if you're going to be leaning over the bar like that -- regardless of how high it is -- the gentlemen in question are going to generate at least a few ideas.
By the way, would you please explain this? You said, "For the record, I would have been quite happy to break the drought and sleep with this guy, if he hadn't been so bloody crude about it." (So, before he was crude there was a possibility?)
Because you then said, "All he had to do was tell me what he was thinking and I would never have gone up there in the first place." (Saying, "no, there wasn't really a possibility.")
I've got a pretty good idea of the answer, but I'd like to hear your thought processes here, especially when you say, "Men and women have both gotta stop screwing with each other's brains and be upfront about what they want."
Sooooo, what exactly did YOU want here? (Other than that the guy wouldn't be a slobbering boor, which goes without saying.)
Interesting theory, RN -- and I was just yanking your chain a bit, btw, as while I also dislike game players I also think plenty of people simply can't articulate to themselves what it is they're doing or want because they're not actually sure, which can manifest itself to others as game-playing. And of course, as per your encounter, plenty of people also lack any sense of flair or style when in the moment. But I'm not so sure I'd see it as honesty versus dishonesty -- more like simplicity versus complexity.
There is certainly great clarity in P4P, but that's because there's also basically utter simplicity in the whole thing that eliminates most interactive human feelings, desires or needs beyond two very simple ones (money and sex) or most other complexities. It's a basic commercial transaction, same as buying milk, complicated only by what the transaction is about. That's great, but that's not really anything like a real male-female human relationship because it's far too controlled and one-dimensional. In a real relationship the boundaries are far less clear and far more dynamic.
Personally, I think that being in P4P situations that are straightforward transactions like brothels, MPs, or escort services have done little or nothing to help me understand women or dating or flirting. On the other hand, places like beer bars, go-gos and so on have helped to some extent, as there is flirting, evaluating, and decision-making that takes place, and it's possible to extend it pretty much as long as you'd care to do so. And to me, that's actually my favorite part of the process.
Plus you get to send him back for just a restocking fee if he doesn't meet your specifications? :D
So if that's really what you want, why have you had such trouble of late? Surely you, as an attractive horny woman, can just find a specimen on the street, say, look, I want to borrow you for an hour to get sweaty and then not see you again, and manage to get at least a couple of guys willing to have a throw under those conditions! Those are basically the rules you know fairly well, right? ;)
Ah, I figured b) was at the heart of things -- but of course that means a basic conflict with the P4P construct, right, no matter how attractive it may be on the surface as a short-term fix?
As far as a) goes -- geez, you really are in the hinterlands, aren't you? :)
Yes, started. But a "carefully planned, rule-laden parttime lover/open relationship" isn't exactly a P4P type scenario, and turning it into something else can be every bit as complicated as the dating scene, since agreeing on a scenario with two parties clear on things and then changing it is no simpler than going through the process of discovering what expectations/desires are via dating. One party can be perfectly happy with the arrangement and not want complications -- this is straight out of the American women thread.
Of course, the major bonus to the former approach is you're boinking while you're figuring out as opposed to figuring out after the date whether you're going to!
Open relationship? ROTFLMAO! Since when has that ever worked?
Come now, sooner or later, one or the other of the two will have disproportionate feelings and WHAM! not so "open" any more.
That kind of relationship is harder to find than hen´s teeth.
Sort of like perfect socialism, sounds good in theory...
Cheers,
Sporadic
Not to mention the fact that if you've been waiting for months for a decent man to walk by because you're in the middle of nowhere, an open relationship with one who finally does may well mean you'll both be going after the livestock or pets :D
RN, This may sound strange, but I honestly can not think of a really embarrassing example. Possibly the "walk of shame" through a hotel lobby with someone unlikely to be my wife, but that is about it.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Rolly Polly
09-21-04, 07:39
I once had an escort come over to my apartment and told her before hand to dress conservatively. When she knocked in the door she only had about 4 threads of clothing on and just as I opened the door my across the hall neighbors came out with their 2 little kids. I just smiled and let her in, but for weeks after that I would peek out of my apartment before leaving in an attempt to avoid seeing them.
I guess I fall into the same category as Sporadic -- I saw RN's post pretty much as soon as it went up, thought, ooh, that's a good one, let's see... and came up blank. I'm still blank the next day, though I'm sure there's gotta be an incident. The sexual stuff really doesn't qualify -- cumming too quickly, not at all, losing erections, etc. You screw enough, that stuff happens. I don't really ever actually feel the "walk of shame" to be honest, as I've always figured it's none of anyone's business what or who I'm doing. So I'm still thinking.
May I turn the tables here slightly?
RN, Please tell us if there is anything in particular a customer can, or can not do to make a provider happy.
Please, no platitudes about paying well and finishing quickly (or being Antonio Banderas.) I would really like to have an authentic opinion.
Cheers,
Sporadic
Can I ask a slightly serious morality question, folks? Would love to hear your opinion as well, RN, since, of course, a distinguished woman's honest opinion is worth gold. (I always enjoy reading your posts. )
If a well known escort class provider was noticed to have a visible STD, should a monger feel compelled to NOT tell others about it?
In the State of Maine, a provider named "LL" came down with an std. A monger noticed it, and later mentioned it on WSG.
Of course, this came back in full force upon the provider since she is very popular in Maine and there are MANY yahoo groups of providers and clients communicating back and forth.
Turned out, members and lurkers of WSG frequent these other boards and someone anonymous brung it up "publically" so to speak for the provider to address publically.
This became a real firestorm. Some galvonized behind the provider, others around freedom to speak of the monger to say what he's seen.
1. Should the monger tell others of this or keep it to themselves?
2. Is there an nettiquette for this sort of thing? Being accused of an STD is a strong thing, but in all honesty, its not a big deal. Mongers, of course, come down with an STD at some point despite safe, and get it dealt with fairly easily. Yet if a provider does, well...the double standard appears to be HEAVY.
Golden rule says that one should do unto others as blah blah blah...so keep your damn mouth shut about it unless you want someone to blow the beans on you.
3. Is the monger morally compelled to speak up about it however. I mean, if a provider who is known for going bareback on occassion comes down with a form of herpes, thats pretty significant information.
Obviously she's not going to tell anyone, and its a two way street...he got himself exposed for not practicing safe sex. He too is possibly infected by her...so he, too, could get "singled out" if you will to other providers and avoided like the plague.
I'd love to see some opinions on this matter.
Stoner, thanks for the serious question regarding if you should report a STD. I was getting sick to my stomach waiting for the response to, Sporadic question, "RN, Please tell us if there is anything in particular a customer can, or can not do to make a provider happy."
Who the fuck cares, you are paying good money, they are there to please you, not the other way around. But just the other day I was in Mexico getting a BJ from this girl, who only wanted to do it for one minute, so I started eating out her pussy, just to make her continue with the BJ, but when I was ready to fuck her, I quit eating, even if she wanted me to continue.
But, back to your question. Yes you should report it even if it's a rumor, better be safe then sorry. I do have to tell you that most of these are false reports from other jeolous women, or jilted lovers or customers of the sex worker.
Who knows why they do it, but I have never really seen a report turn out true, and once the girl gets a bad reputation it seems to stay with her, even after she cleared the STD problem up.
I think you should report an STD only if you have first-hand knowledge of it.
SW's are notoriously famous for back stabbing and spreading rumor's about each other and it's a good way for a passive-agressive john to get even with a provider that hurt his feelings or ripped him off.
So not only would I not start a rumor unless I knew for sure, I would receive such information with a grain of salt.
Civ2K
Stoner, IMHO the first stop is the provider herself, and then it depends on what we're talking about. If you're talking about the clap, then that's something curable and if the provider takes care of it then the only viable reporting issue is the fact that it's questionable whether the provider practices safe sex, which guys might see as good or bad. If we're talking HIV, then damn right it's viable information. Herpes, hmm -- yes if she's not taking care of it and it seeing clients while contagious.
But I don't see where curable disease info is viable unless the provider doesn't deal with it.
Stoner,
Moral obligation to report? No. The whole idea behind fora like this is to facilitate back channel infomation.
If I knew for sure, I would have no problem reporting it in a FR.
IMHO, any bareback FS is folly.
Pokey: For someone as sensitive as you...
Who the fuck cares, you are paying good money I am not surprised that you get an upset tummy now and then.
Cheers,
Sporadic
True Hobbiest
09-22-04, 07:56
To: RN, OMR and anyone else who really gives a shit anymore.
All of my post on this matter can be found on the US/ME, MA areas.
Since I was the one who initially posted my findings about LL here on WSG for the benefit of my Monger brethren and not on those other boards which I am also a member and I have followed the banter about LL. But then again "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one".
First things first, I have known Lisa and have used her services quite frequently over the last 2 years, as I had said she was awesome. When I noticed her "affliction" I told her about it right there and then, that is when she gave me the heat rash etc. excuse. I have been around for a long time and I know an STD/STI when I see one, no mistake made on my part, my background has trained me to recoginize what is and what is not a STD/STI.
I felt that the Mongers on WSG should be warned. Yes, I realize that this is not a "closed" club and that what ever is printed here can make it's way onto other boards, but I did not want to hurt LL in anyway, no malice intended. The turkey who took my WSG posting and posted it on her/LL's own board with-out even removing my ID was the one with "poor form". I do know that she has retired because of this publicity. Well she has retired before in fact she did this just a few months ago ( if any one out there was truly a regular LL friend they would have known that, mostly due to man issues in her life), but then again it could have also been for health reasons. I can assure you that she will be back "cured" of coarse and believe me I will see her again, medical science is amazing.
So, would I do this again? Absolutly! If I found a provider with "something" that could harm one of my fellow mongers I would post it here on WSG and only on WSG just as I report my great experiences. Afterall we report on track marks, pimps in the background, LE and possible rip offs, why not STDs? We all know the chance that we are taking, let's improve those odds if we can in our favor.
I see your point RN, but I am not a disgruntled "John, boyfriend, etc. nor am I an alarmist who shuuders at any pimple, red spot or foul smell I may cum upon, afterall if I did I would have quit this hobby after my first experience 28 years ago. In one of my past lives I taught "health care" to teenagers at a health clinic so believe me, I was not making any assumptions or miscalculations about what I had seen on this lovely lady, it was text book.
If any of my fellow mongers cum across a provider in my CT, MA, ME, RI and ME stomping grounds with an issue that could affect my health and the health of those around me then please let me know about it, either publicly in the Forum or PM me. After all isn't that what WSG is all about?
Thank you,
TH
PS: BY the way I met this awesome chick in Fitchburg the other day, BBBJTCIM, no spitting, cute, sweet and safe. Now this is what it is all about!
RN, even though I stated that I feel posting such STD information should be a last resort, how exactly is posting stuff in an "Ugly Mug" chatroom any different? Some sex worker has a beef with a customer (and I readily acknowledge there are some who are utter jerks, mysoginists and even violent) posts info about them in such a place, and the customer can be boycotted. This can certainly also be an instance where it's coming from someone with their own agenda. (And, still, if I knew a customer were HIV positive I'd sure as hell want to post that to warn fellow workers!)
I guess the real question comes down to the issue of what the standard should be for posting specific personal information. Reviews or field reports are obviously subjective YMMV things, but negative statements about character, disease, violent tendencies, etc., are less obviously so. This is a person-based business, so whatever is posted has by its nature a different impact than does a negative restaurant review (or, to parallel better, a report of an unhygienic kitchen.)
Oh, and yeah, nobody listens to what you have to say. Right. :D
Cash Works
09-22-04, 09:41
RN,
Embarrassing moments in mongering - I suppose mine was a variation on Sporadic's "walk of shame". The reason I'm calling it a variation is due to the fact that it was a lack of companionship going up to my room that brought it about.
Over a decade ago, on my second trip to Bangkok, I was staying at the same hotel as my first trip. The first trip, however, I had a room that was accessed from the parking lot, not via the lobby, I still had to get my key from the front desk, but I thought it was a little more private, but the ladies at the front desk were apparently still able to keep tabs on the lady friends I was bringing back with me (I was like a kid in a candy store).
On my second trip, about six months later, the ladies in reception remembered me from my first trip, but gave me a room that was accessed through the lobby. For the first week on that trip, I was pretty much exploring "incall" places around town and hadn't thought about bringing anyone back to the hotel. On day number 4, while picking up my key at the front desk (with lots of other guests present & looking on), one of the ladies asked me if I needed a doctor - confused, I said "No. Why do you ask?" Her response was basically that she had noticed I hadn't brought any young ladies back to the hotel this trip & since on my last trip I was bringing back so many different ladies every day, she thought maybe I was sick!
CW
JustSumFun
09-22-04, 10:15
RN: I had one really embarrassing episode recently. I called up a lady and she gave me such screwy directions that I was hopping in and out of my car and driving around like mad to arrive at her place. Finally reached the place she asked me to come to and waited at the bus stop she specified. Now this is about 7 pm in the evening and the area was a residential area, with as expected at that time of the evening, a lot of families out for a walk.
I noticed this huge woman walking towards the bus stop, along with a young girl with stunning figure who I recognised to be the lady I was supposed to meet. I hid behind a car and tried to make myself as small as possible. I am small to start with ;) She looked around and could not spot anyone who could be me. we had never seen each other. She called me on the mobile and asked me where I was. I directed her to the car behind which I was hiding. she came over nodded her head and walked by and I followed.
As happens, when a beautiful lady is walking on the road, all male eyes, and quite a few jealous female eyes, were following her. And they all saw me following her as well. I felt a 100 pairs of eyes burning holes in my back and was sweating quite profusely. We finally reached the compound of the building she lives in and the watchman looked suspiciously at me. Got into the lift and when the lift doors opened on her floor there was this family waiting to get in. I was sweating buckets. They watched us go into her apartment and then got into the lift.
The events so spooked me that Mr. Happy was extremely unhappy and refused to stand up and salute the lady. I left without leaving much of an impression. No reflection on the lady. She was gorgeous and under different circumstances I would be knocking on her door every other day. But I dont have the nerve to run that gauntlet ever again.
Justfun
I know that in the majority of states here it is required by law that you disclose your HIV status to anyone (including sexual partners) who might be exposed to the virus. As long as someone is doing that there's no issue, as your partner then can exercise informed consent. Your point regarding anti-villification laws might be correct -- certainly there might be a case made for slander or defamation if someone knowingly communicates a falsehood -- but that was precisely my point regarding the standard of posting. How is circulating a list that says "so-and-so is violent, avoid him" any different than people saying "so-and-so's seeing clients and has an STD"? I can see it being so if we're talking about a list of people with convictions, but if it's "guys the police can't be bothered with" then where's the line here?
Thanks for the info on the Ugly Mugs -- though it still seems like a "conviction without actual conviction" kind of situation, same as the STD issue. (And an actual on-paper thing would also fall more squarely into areas of potential action for defamation, though obviously if there's been a criminal complaint that's different.) But what about the online chatrooms you mentioned? Do the same standards apply?
And again I said I thought the first thing that needed to be done was talk to the sex worker/client, that I didn't believe information about curable STIs was something that should be posted, and that the only reason I could see for posting was if there was willful disregard or refusal to correct the situation.
The basic problem with electronic posting in any such situation is that it lives forever and circulates every which way.
Guess I'm shameless :D as I've been trying for a couple of days to think of something. There are minor things and little foibles -- you know, forgot something, out of this or that, etc. but nothing that really comes to mind as being anything memorable.
RN if you will PM me a dirty story I will e-mail you a picture of a $100 bill.
I'm a new member, so if this topic has been addressed in an earlier post, pardon me. What about the issue of trafficking? I share the same moral outlook on P4P as (I'd imagine) nearly every other Forum user, but the prospect of wandering into a trafficking situation troubles me. In my P4P experiences (all in Eastern Europe, BTW), I don't believe I ever was with a SW who had been coerced into the business. I say this because I saw no telltale signs of coercion--no nervous looks from the woman, no thugs lurking about--but then, what does that prove? Really, my question is what is a monger's responsibility in ascertaining whether a SW is plying her trade "voluntarily," i.e., not under physical or psychological duress?
Changing the topic, I guess some prostitutes from Guatemala City formed a football/soccer team, then got irate when the team was booted from a tournament. Here's the story, http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page//0,4057,10864110%5E13762,00.html
Found this through a newsletter I get:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1306267,00.html
How do I make this look like a link? I have not figured that one out?
Pretty interesting view of the morality and use of prostitution and mongering as ways of life.
GettingTang
09-24-04, 23:16
Although I fully subscribe to the idea that monogamy is not natural, I do believe that if you're in a serious relationship with a woman, as a man, you CAN, make the choice to be monogamous based on the power of "love." Sure, naturally and instinctively it is a sacrifice, but with true love, comes many forms of sacrifice!
Also, nature has a way of always ruling the earth. You see this with over population of animals and plant life, etc. Nature always wins. As humans, if you always give into our natural instinctive desires, then we too shall fall prey to "nature" Ever heard of diseases? I believe this is a form of nature running it's course. We are fortunate as human beings to have much more control over our own destiny then animals.
Tang~!
Cash Works
09-24-04, 23:42
Gorilla,
Excellent article!
At the risk of sounding vain, I'm going to have to say that I think that writer was reading some of the posts on this thread! At least half of the article sounded an awful lot like the discussion that came up from my comment "p4p is the only honest way to get laid". I have to admit though, he does a better job than me at putting pen to paper - or, in this case, finger to keyboard.
CW
OK, guys, I have been married 25 years to the same woman, but love my strange/different pussy when I can get it. Yes, I am a nasty, immoral, horny male who will fuck at the drop of a hat, as long as the subject is fairly attractive and smells OK. OK, she does not have to be fairly attractive, just not fat and ugly. My bottom line is she had to be better looking than my wife.
I have a friend who I have been with a few times when she is pissed off at the old man, another one who has shared the wonders of web-cam sex with me and many encounters with SW's when I lived in Seattle, plus a few since. Now, I can commit, in a way, but not without some variety of some type.
I now live in a place were getting P4P is next to impossible; and those that are around are 1's and 2's (a few -1's that I would make pay ME). So, the oppotunity for P4P is limited to trips out of town. Now, that said, can I do without strange pussy? Yeah, I can, but then my old lady does put out on a fairly regular schedule, as long as I am nice and do not press her when she is not in the mood. Frankly, she is actually pretty sexy and good at it, too, but the frequency is not what I want. At almost 50 I busted 2 nuts with her Sunday morning within an hour!
I think prostitution should be legal, for all of our sakes, but that will never happen in this state. So, I look for that nice, clean playmate near my age or even a younger one, but discreet. In the meantime my right hand is extremely happy.
Vonavi, I don't think trafficking is happening in such large numbers that you would really have to worry about it. Usually, its on a much smaller scale then the media would like us to believe.
Like I posted in the past most of the problems are from lying sex recuiters or immigration smugglers making the girls pay for their fee by fucking as many men as possible. I think the problem with the Asian's Tong" and "Triads" are real in some places, it's just not likey we would run into it.
But, Vonavi, if you happen on forced sex worker, I also hope you would help her, but I don't see anything wrong with helping yourself to a little pussy first. In fact make it a condition of your helping the girl, because you could be risking your life, time and money to help this girl out.
Did anyone see the latest news on the miltary policy in the US on visiting prostitutes in foreign countries?. The conservatives in our government want to make it a crime for visiting a sex worker in foreign places like Thailand, Vietnam, maybe Mexico, etc, etc.
The excuse they give is having sex with a prostitutes
promotes "trafficking". I guess some parts of this is true, as I written before the US and World Bank promoted sex, and I still believe the IMF and World Bank, see the selling of pussy as a way to pay down the debt of monies owed to them.
I don't think trafficking is the real reason why the US Government wants to put miltary men in prison for fucking a sex worker. But since this site isn't a political site, I won't get into the reasons why they are doing it.
I don't have the article saved, but if anyone is interested I'm sure I can find it again.
I was wondering if anybody's been following this story, http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~2414505,00.html, about a former call girl from Oakland, Calif., who put herself through Stanford Law School by turning high-dollar tricks. Even though she's not been arrested by the feds, they've seized cash from a safety deposit box and are trying to get about $61,000 from her in back taxes.
I never knew the streetwalkers of Vancouver started a book club, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1835&ncid=1835&e=1&u=/cpress/20040927/ca_pr_on_od/hooker_book_club.
Hmmmm,
Let's say a girl has been forced into the sex trade through human trafficking and is an unwilling participant. If I have sex with her, wouldn't that be roughly equivalent to rape, since she didn't have a choice and was in that situation against her will? Therefore whatever we did would be against her will even if I paid her for the service.
Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this one.
Rock
Jet Ranger
09-29-04, 05:36
Pokey,
I posted a couple articles on the military anti-prostitution effort on the WSG Law Enforcement board.
Well, South Korea definitely has been one of those places where trafficking has been a problem, but I hardly think a rule to get GIs to swear off sex is going to get anywhere. Is it somehow better to have GIs on leave going after the general local female population to try to get laid? One would presume such a rule would only be applied under the most egregious of circumstances.
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 10:38
Why was the rule made in the first place? Was it not for all the bad press that overseas soldiers have been getting with rape accusations? Not to mention many times in countries that are super strict regarding crime.
So the question is, was this rule put into place for enforcement purposes or was it a smoke screen to ward off future accusations?
Quite frankly, I would imagine that the goverment could care less if the soldiers are banging away overseas, but come one cry of rape and the poor soldier will be made an example of to show a "we really do care about your women" gesture to the offended country.
Cash Works
09-29-04, 11:02
Pokey,
I think you and I finally agree on something! I've never been in the military, so I'm not all that familiar with the extra rules of conduct (UCMJ) that they have to put up with, but I know that it's based heavily on a very conservative political outlook, which tends to be very puritanical in origin.
Anybody ever heard of "separation of church & state?" I believe that was one of the basic principles on which the founding fathers of the USA based the constitution.
Prostitution and the military have been linked for the entirety of human history. In the past, this has been widely accepted largely due to the reason that JZ mentioned - the locals would rather have all the military guys screwing prostitutes than their own daughters. Ever heard of "camp followers?" Not all "camp followers" were prostitutes, but many of them were. I read once that the term "hookers" was derrived during the US civil war for the "camp followers" that tagged along with Union General Hooker (did a google search on "general hooker" & this was the first link, it's mentioned in the last paragraph - http://www.civilwarhome.com/hookbio.htm).
A few years ago, a friend of mine told me that if you ever find yourself in a town near a US military installation, and want to find the p4p action, visit the Military Police headquarters on base and get a list of all the "off-limits" bars & businesses. Most of these will be "off-limits to US military personnel" because of their association with p4p action. So, I would say that the US military's "frowning upon" p4p by its people is not a new thing, but this new legislation you mentioned may be making the penalties for participation tougher.
CW
Rolly Polly, I hardly think charging a soldier with frequenting prostitutes is going to do much to quell a rape accusation, as that's essentially inferentially blaming the victim. I doubt that would be well-received by an outraged place -- it would most likely only make things worse. And wouldn't it be expected that sexually frustrated soldiers might be more rather than less inclined to such violence?
But RN, even though I think this is a completely stupid policy I don't see how it's about "Christianizing" other parts of the world. Christianizing the US armed forces, yes, and screw that, making a statement about trafficking, yes, and a typically inept and inelegant one at that. But all countries set rules for their soldiers and saying, for example, that you will dress in standard uniform at all times doesn't mean it's an attack on the casual dress of another place. This is a code of behavior for members of a specific group who have agreed to live by such codes, not something at all enforceable on other people.
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 11:46
Joe,
That may be true, BUT it's still the American way! Your proof is in the recent "abuse scandal" in Iraq as well as any time there is a friendly fire incident.
The outrage is the same and the US Government handles it the same way everytime....put a soldier on trial.
I never made the claim that it would make all the anamosity go away, but for some reason it makes the Government sleep better at night.
No disagreement on that -- it's always better, from the government's point of view, to find a specific person to blame as opposed to look at the big picture. That's not only the military, that's American foreign policy in a nutshell.
Rock Dog, just saw your post. By my thinking, yes, if a monger knows a woman is in the sex trade against her will and pays to have sex with her that is essentially rape. I think one has to be clear, however -- there are plenty of women who say they wish they were not doing this, or that they're doing it because they don't have a choice, and that's quite different from being forced to participate or from being trafficked. But I don't see how having sex with someone who's forced into it is any different than being part of the gang-rape of a woman who's tied down and who says no. The fact that you left money on the table in either situation is irrelevant.
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 12:21
What about a girl who is not forced into it, but wants to get out and is too scared or doesn't know where to go?
Let's say it's the typical drug induced SWering and the chick is hooked up with a pimp/drug dealer to maintain her habit. Now she wants to sober up and get out, but she is scared of her pimp and what the future may hold..is that rape if you continue to see her?
Obviously you can offer certain amounts of help, but I wouldn't totally freak out on a monger if he chose not to help because it can be a messy and dangerous situation helping a SW get away from a pimp/drug dealer.
The issue is one of choice -- if someone is in circumstances by choice and there is consent to have sex, then there is no rape. If someone doesn't like their circumstances that's a different thing. No one is absolutely obligated to help someone else in most circumstances, though of course we hope we're good enough people to do so and there are definitely exceptions to the rule -- if you find someone tied up on train tracks and leave them there knowing a train is due in fifteen minutes, for example, then you're scum and probably prosecuteable. But taking active steps to change someone's life situation is hardly an obligation.
In the situation you describe, there may be fear on the part of the SW but she is not afraid of the monger, and she is not refusing to have sex with him. Sad, yes. Tragic, yes. Would be nice to help, yes. Possible participation in exploitation, very likely. Rape, absolutely not.
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 14:13
RN,
That's only one half of the fear I was referring to. The other part is that she would absolutely 100% leave if she didn't fear for her safety. The later of the two being the "forced" to stay in the business part.
So, JZ, it's rape if she is forced in the business, but not rape if she gets in willingly, but is forced to stay in?
Ah, now you're changing the equation -- there is a difference between being afraid to leave and being forced to stay in. I know people who are on airplanes who are afraid to fly, but that's different than someone who's physically prevented from leaving.
If she is not giving willing consent to having sex, it's rape. That's the line. If she is intimidated into giving consent, that's rape as well. If she would like to leave and can do so but is afraid, and so she gives consent, that's not.
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 15:01
If the fear is from physical reprecusions that have not yet been deminstrated, but are almost certain to happen then is that not the same as being forced in?
Is mental abuse not qualified as force? Don't forget, my equation is a drug dealing pimp, not a pimp who has his girls in Manhattan lofts.
Here in Argentina, the minimum wage is about $150 US per month (450 pesos). Waitresses make about $250 US per month. The gals here say they have "no choice" but to be hookers because they "can't live" on those wages. Bullshit. Lots of people here live on those wages. They just don't get to buy a lot of nice clothes and eat out in restaurants, and they don't have their own apartments but must share with a few friends.
Gee, when I was in my teens and twenties and working as a line cook, I never got to buy nice clothes or eat out in restaurants and I had to share living accomodations. Ditto for when I was in college. But I never thought about giving blow jobs for money so I could have a higher standard of living. Do I think it is immoral for these gals to do so? Not really but don't give me any fucking sob stories.
Ain't nobody forcing nobody to do nothing down here, and I think that is the case in 90% or more of the places where prostitution is practiced. Yes, you do have "white slavery" (or "yellow slavery" :) ) but I think that is not the case where most of the guys on this board monger.
This post posted on 30 September 2004
Dickhead,
Bravo Dickhead, you have hit the nail on the (Dick) head.
Yes folks I am back after a longish haitus, I'm sure however nobody missed me.
Yogesh
Dear folks,
This is what Dickhead has written a few days ago,
"I don't personally believe anyone can rescue anyone from anything, whether it's prostitution, drugs, obesity, abusive relationships, or whatever. Motivation has to come from within. "
I have not come across nothing as profoundly simple or true as this for a long time.
Yogesh
Rolly Polly
09-29-04, 16:26
You can be motivated but fearful of doing it on your own thus a monger can take a SW to a shelter or put her up in a hotel to get the ball rolling.
Fear can override motivation and a helping hand gives a feeling of comfort that can in turn override the fear.
Jet Ranger
09-29-04, 20:09
If I recall correctly, there are still lots of "archaic" rules in the UCMJ such as those prohibiting dueling, sodomy, and adultery.
I haven't heard of any military people dueling lately, but if they got rid of all the guys (and now girls) that have adulterous relationships and receive/give BJ and DATY, there wouldn't be many people left to fight the nation's wars. Even the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (General Joe Ralston) a few years ago got caught having an affair while he was separated from his wife. Due to his high visibility position, he didn't get the top job (Chairman), but he didn't get tossed out of the military, either. He got a plum assignment in Europe for his last assignment and retired as a 4-star.
The JAGs will probably make examples of some poor young enlisted guys who gets caught P2P in a highly visible locations with trafficking problems like Korea, the Philippines, Thailand, or Okinawa, but there's not enough MPs to watch all the P2P joints, escorts, and SW in this world or JAGs to prosecute them all if they get caught.
U.S. officers have always had to face the catch-all "conduct unbecoming of a commissioned officer" article of the UCMJ, but I would hope our commissioned officers who P2P would have enough common sense to use enough discretion to avoid getting caught in the first place.
If a military person gets caught and charged under civil law jurisdiction, it's practically just as bad as getting caught by military authorities. Worst case, a guy might get bagged by civil authorities and face further discipline from the military after the civil authorities are finished with him (like the way off-post DWIs are handled for example).
IMHO this proposed anti-prostitution change to the UCMJ is a "feel good" provision to placate a few certain nations that can't deal with trafficking of women on their own and curry favor with certain domestic voting blocs. It will be practically impossible to enforce on a broad scale. Selective enforcement is a whole other story.
If (when) this change to the UCMJ is enacted, they'll need a lot of guys to check out all the "spas" to verify which are "legitimate" and which are AMPs. They'll also probably need to hire a team of contractors to read the WSG Forum all day to help them collect information on where P2P joints are (military people are probably not allowed to visit this site with government computers.) What a job to get paid for! Where do I apply?
I also wonder what the standard of evidence will be. If a suspected P2P joint is not on an "off limits" list, but a military guy is seen walking in or out of it, is that enough to charge him while they check the place out to see if sexual services are offered at it? Do they need to catch you in the act? What about a P2P girl coming to your private home or hotel room?
Finally, if a military person charged with P2P declines non-judicial punishment and opts for a court-martial, I wonder how many panels will actually convict a guy and what their standards will be for those convicted along with the punishments doled out?
SG
Smut Villian
09-30-04, 00:19
Spy Guy,
As someone with 14 years (and counting) in the U.S. Armed Forces (as a mongering MP, imagine that !) I think I may be able to answer a couple of your questions:
(1) If a serviceman gets nabbed by civilian authorities while out in town, the military will usually heap additional punishment during a NJP (non-judicial punishment) hearing. Military members are not exempt from double-jeopardy, it seems.
(2) If an establishment is not on the "off-limits" list then it's fair game for the monger. The Military Police Corps does not have the manpower to check EVERY "suspect" place of business (we have our hands full in Iraq as things are now).
(3) You don't have to necessarily be "caught in the act" to get nabbed; just being seen in an "off-limits" establishment is enough to warrant a charge of Disobeying a Direct Order under the UCMJ.
(4) Opting for a "Courts- Martial" over an NJP hearing is tantamount to commiting career suicide, especially for an enlisted man. The conviction rates are stupendous in the military, and a Courts-Martial sentence is often (actually always) much more HARSH than NJP punishment (e.g. losing a stripe and some pay for an NJP versus going to Leavenworth, losing ALL your rank, and getting a Dishonorable Discharge for a Courts-Martial). You do the math.
This new anti-mongering regulation is a load of shit, IMHO; when the male-female ratio on most bases is something like 1 to 10, "Johnny G.I." is going to get some from someone, somewhere. I really don't think it's going to work because soldiers are human, too.
I am NOT looking forward to enforcing a law that I'm most likely going to violate myself.
I'm not trying to take away from your military talk. But I just want to make one or two points. Wasn't Mary Magdalin(sp) a prostitute? When Jesus was on earth? Prostitution has been around longer than many want to admit. I just wish we could all write our representatives, and congressmen and push for the legalization of prostitution. Like in Nevada. They do regular health checks on the girls in Nevada. Unlike your regular SW. And I can tell you, some do it for survival. Others do it to maintain a habit. I don't put any of them down, because I've known many a working girl, and it's always, usually a means of survival. Unfortunately there just weren't enough Prince Charmings to go around. Alot of the girls support their kids this way. Others put themselves through school this way. No matter who you pick up, they are just trying to survive. (And as for them legalizing prostitution, I doubt it will happen in the near future) Because it's an election year. And that's some stuff the candidates wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. (I'm now officially off of my soapbox.) Good luck and good hunting, and be safe. I would give you my vd lecture, but you'd probably just ignore it.
A question, sort of riffing on the law student/sex worker who's been in the news:
Say you've met a woman in her thirties who's reasonably or very successful in her job, you've gotten to know her a bit, perhaps formed an attraction toward her, and she reveals to you that before she went into her current field she spent X amount of time working as an escort/sex worker. It was years ago, she was very discreet and no one knows about it, etc.
What do you do with that information on a personal level (or otherwise, though I think that's rather more clear)? Does this change the way you look at/think about her, her situation, and in what way? Does this vary depending on the circumstances (she only did it for a short time because she was desperate for money/she did it for several years putting herself through school/she worked for an agency/brother/was a freelancer/whatever) or is that irrelevant?
Rolly Polly
10-04-04, 13:19
As far as the information goes, I would certainly keep it to myself. I have a lot of co-workers that confide in me and I must admit that I am a damn good secret keeper! I don't think it's anyones business and when she feels comfortable enough to tell a friend it should be with the unspoken understanding that it should not be repeated to others.
On a personal level, in that situation I don't think it would bother me. Certainly, I would take such a relationship slowly. The last thing I would want to do is to jump into a serious relationship to later find myself having remorseful or "jealous" (lack of a better word) feelings.
The guy who goes public with that information should have his balls cut off...that's for sure!
Smut Villian
10-04-04, 14:59
I' d have to agree with Rolly Polly on this one. If you really think about it, we all have skeletons in our closets. Me judging someone like that for her past is like the pot calling the kettle black. Besides, she actually made something of herself (vice using the business to support, say, a drug habit). But I guess the Bible-thumpers just can't see that, though.
I also find it funny how the government wants to collect back taxes on her earnings (WTF!). Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought that taxes were only levied on legitimate income sources. Does that mean we should go after drug dealers for owing back taxes on their drug money as well? And while we're on that subject: if the government demands income tax on P4P enterprises, could that be a slippery slope towards legalization?
I can't imagine outlawing an activity, then charging taxes on income derived from that same activity. That seems very hypocritical to me.
PsyberZombie
10-04-04, 16:13
Smut Villian writes =
I also find it funny how the government wants to collect back taxes on her earnings (WTF!). Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought that taxes were only levied on legitimate income sources
Ever hear of AL CAPONE , Smutty ??
Run a web search on him , and see How the Feds managed to lock him up
Hint for those of you too Lazy to do this =
They got him on Income Tax Evasion for failing to pay Taxes on his ill·gotten gains
Alcatraz is Closed now ; but if the Man *really* wants to nail you =
A Tax Evasion Conviction is the Way they Go !!
Cash Works
10-04-04, 16:38
I think I've missed the news on this one, so I don't really know the background details. However, based on what's been written here, I'd have to agree with Rolly Polly and Smut Villain. She's confided in you as a friend, so she's trusting that you'll keep her confidence.
If I were to give her any grief about being a prostitute, I'd be guilty of hypocrisy. Seriously, if you compared P4P partners, chances are our numbers would be pretty close (mine may actually be larger than hers - I've been mongering for over 20 years, semi retired at the moment due to geographical constraints) - the difference is that I was paying a prostitute to have sex & she was being paid by a customer to have sex with them. It takes two to tango - is one of the two any better or worse than the other?
As for the taxation part - we've discussed that here a little while ago, when RN was asking why we wouldn't want our daughters to be prostitutes. One of my reasons was tax evasion. Since I don't know the details of the report that JZ mentioned, I can't make any valid comments about the back taxes except that they can only go back 7 years, I believe anything prior to that would be protected by statute of limitations.
CW
I agree with Smut Villian that we all have skeletons in our closet. It shouldn't matter much if you keep the relationship on a professional level or even work/dating situtation.
I would tell her I was a monger too and compare notes with her on who fucked more people.
If you wanted a deeper relationship, or God forbid wanted to marry this girl; well then you could be in trouble. depending on how long she has been in the business, she more then likey has psychology problems, self esteem problems, along with a good amount of guilt.
Chances are this girl chose to tell you about her past, because she wanted a co-dependant relationship with you.
Oh, JS you must be talking about that Stanford Law student, and turned on about fucking a highly educated prostitute. She is not that smart, as I think she could be making more money at a top tier law firm.( I haven't followed it closely, I'll read up on it)
PsyberZombie
10-04-04, 18:18
Both Joe Zop and Pokey surely must know that any woman who turns to the Sex Industry to "Make Ends Meat" has "Issues" that make them not trust·worthy enough to *ever* be a Signficant Other
The only exception to this Rule would be the gal who was merely an 'Exotic Dancer' in a high·class Strip Club where No Contact with the dancers was allowed
Yes, I was thinking partially about the Stanford student, but I was also thinking about the issue in general. There are certainly lots of women out working as escorts, and it's kind of like pro athletes in that it's a career that only lasts so long, and there's going to be a long stretch of life afterward when you're doing something else. There are obviously also many women who simply decide the life isn't for them for whatever reason and move on.
I'm curious -- why would you think that years after being out of the game, she would have "issues" or "psychology problems"? Are you guys saying that the act itself of deciding you would go into the game demonstrates some kind of inate and permanent psychological flaw? Would you say the same thing about someone who was, say, a car thief who'd quit such activity a decade ago? I knew, for example, guys who sold pot to help finance going through school who stopped doing so later. Some of them are the most disgustingly upstanding people you'd ever care to meet.
Do you think the same of guys who pay for sex? Would the same issues come up in terms of having a deeper relationship with a "reformed" monger?
And PsyberZombie, I confess I'm totally unclear on your distinction -- you are apparently saying here that exotic dancers who, say, give lap dances also fall into this category. Are you saying that the bottom line is that anyone who allows themselves to be touched or touches for money falls into the category, but those who are simply seen do not?
PsyberZombie
10-05-04, 06:25
Are you guys saying that the act itself of deciding you would go into the game demonstrates some kind of inate and permanent psychological flaw?
Yes
Almost any·one will resort to Criminal Activity to get money if they're desperate enough ; but it takes a , shall we say , 'Special' kind of person to decide that sucking dicks is the best way to get that money
Do you think the same of guys who pay for sex?
Of course not
Anonymous sex with a total stranger is a Normal Fantasy for guys [ it's an Evolutionary thing = maximizing your off·spring , and all that ] ; we mongers just get to live out those Fantasies
Are you saying that the bottom line is that anyone who allows themselves to be touched or touches for money falls into the category, but those who are simply seen do not?
Exactly
A College Co·Ed who is an Exotic Dancer at a place where no contact is allowed is a whole lot different than a Lap Dancer , who is basically a Hooker of a lessor degree
Let's face it , Gentlemen :
We all Thank Dog that P4P gals exist ; but let me draw an Analogy =
I like to 'play the ponies' , too
But that doesn't mean I want a Race Horse living in my house
Capiche ??
Rolly Polly
10-05-04, 07:08
That's a tough point JZ. On the one hand, we would have to ask "why prostitution and not a part time legal job?"
On the other hand, look at the perks of prostitution: (a) make your own hours, (b) many times one hour a day is all that is needed to make sufficient part time money, (c) be your own boss, (d) as much vacation time as you want or need.
There is enough reason to do it that I would not make the claim that all prostitutes are "affected" by it.
Heck, where else can you make $250 an hour or more with no educational requirments. All the perks are there, but it takes "guts" to actually put your ad out there and see that first client.
VilunyaChert
10-05-04, 09:20
>let me draw an Analogy =
>I like to 'play the ponies' , too
>But that doesn't mean I want a Race Horse living in my house
PsyberZombie, isn't the situation more analogous to adopting one of those "retired" grayhounds from Lincoln Park?
So, for guys to pay for anonymous sex with a total stranger is just evolution, but for a woman that's a serious flaw.
Do the guys who would be ex-Chippendales dancers also fall into the category of people who have innate "issues" that would make them too untrustworthy for anyone to ever consider them as a significant other? You describe Lap Dancers as hookers of a lesser degree -- what would be the smallest degree where someone crosses over the line? Would it be going from a complete no-contact bar to somewhere that guys can stuff dollars? Would it be rubbing tits in someone's face while on stage? Something else?
As far as your analogy goes, would you also be saying that no one should ever marry an ex-jockey because after all they had all that physical contact with sweaty horses?
Rolly Polly, you mentioned being remorseful or "jealous" as being the closest way to describe worries about a potential serious relationship with an ex-sex worker. Presuming this was a person you felt you knew well enough to consider and were attracted to before you found out about her ex-career, could you say more about those worries? Would it be worrying about measuring up or being compared to a list of clients? Worry about public (or family) exposure of her past? Worrying that, as others have mentioned, there might be some sort of hidden personality or character flaw you might beat yourself up over not detecting? Something else?
I think your comment about the guts needed to put your ad out and see that first client is a really good one. Perhaps RN would weigh in on that.
Rolly Polly
10-05-04, 10:56
Actually the main worry would be the potential loss of emotional attachment to a significant other. After so much sex for nothing more than money can she then re-connect emotionally to the "love making process".
Perhaps, there is also room to say that there may be a concern of having the ability to measure up. Lets face it, guys get more creative and "nasty" (lack of better word) with a P4P situation than with a girlfriend or spouse.
I might even start asking myself, are those orgasms real or is she faking because she is "immune" to the process.
Maybe if I was actually in such a situation I would see that these concerns are actually not real concerns, but from a hypothetical stand point this is the potential thoughts.
Good points, I guess, as they are all about the core issue in a love relationship, that being "how do I know whether or not it's real?"
Wouldn't a woman be justified in having the same concerns with an experienced monger? There are tons of posts in this forum that not only talk about the wonders of sex without emotional attachment but that are pretty harsh about various partners' performance in the sack (often, ironically, because of the lack of good faking of emotional attachment.) If a monger's been with 500 women how is he any less potentially emotionally disconnected?.
Rolly Polly
10-05-04, 11:52
Generally men work off of lust more than love. That's not to say that men don't fall in love, but in sexual terms a man expresses love by being attentive to his partners needs. Whereas a woman can be submissive in bed, but is more inclined to express love verbally and with other jestures.
The above comment really doesn't make that much sense, but I'm keeping it there as it may be at least one half ass opinion.
The more adequate answer would be that a guy who does not have the love connection could very easily have erection issues, but a female will never have that problem. It's just more disguisable with a women and the question can linger.
Just my opinion. But ex working girls can and do fall in love. And some of them get married. I'm sure not all of them tell their spouse, of their past.
But what is the difference between working girls, and say the girls you all screwed in high school. Just because it was free, that's ok?
It's screwing which ever way you look at it.
We are still women, and still human. And have all the emotional crap, that women are going to have. (ok I'm off of my soapbox)
It's just something for you to think about.
Did you ask your wife, before you married her, how many men she had screwed?
And if she gave you a number, it sure didn't have to be the truth!
Hi,
This is just a suggestion, so please don't take it the wrong way.
I appreciate the details in your report, but I know from experience that a lot of people find it easier to read a report if the paragraphs are separated by a single blank line.
I know how this happens: You're banging away at the keyboard, putting your thoughts into the report as fast as you can write them. However, if you could hit the return key TWICE at the end of each paragraph, your report would be much easier to read, which would certainly be appreciated by your fellow Forum Members.
Thanks,
Jackson
PsyberZombie
10-06-04, 07:00
Joe Zop and the rest of you guys should realize that I'm talking in Generalities here ; that is =
Part of the Wisdom of Life is in recognizing Patterns and acting accordingly on those patterns
After years of Experience , basically Every Sex Worker I've met is nuttier than a squirrel turd
They're also Experts at Manipulation and Deceit = they know *exactly* how to size up a guy ; and if they suspect you're a Sucker , yer gonna get more sucked out of you than your Semen
There have been whole Threads here on =
" Should I help a SW ?? "
[ where 'Help' is basically Financial Support in one form or another ]
I would just *Warn* Joe and others here that although there probably are some Sweet , Innocent Girls out there who couldn't possibly find any other way to make money than sucking some dick , the Reality is that the 'hard luck' stories you hear from people like RN are most likely just part of their Scam
You're going to do what you want , Joe
But when you play with TNT , it's likely to blow up in your face
Well, PsyberZombie, also speaking in "generalities," I've found that most people, sex workers or otherwise, tend to react well when you treat them like an actual person and give them the same level of respect you expect to get yourself, and that you reap what you sow. (That doesn't mean being a sucker, either.) I've also found that my judgement on people overall tends to be pretty good, so I can generally tell when someone is going to be trouble, a scam artist, etc. and I can avoid them or at least avoid getting entangled closely enough so something like that happens. I grew up surrounded by heavy crime, drugs, and people running scams, and while I'd agree that, yes, there are certain levels of the culture where people are so desperate for a buck that they'd do anything to part anyone from their money, that doesn't translate into a general statement, and if I avoid, say, the drugged-out SW scene I mostly avoid that type of person.
The problem with using generalities is that it's inexact and often incorrect. Saying that all those bright things in the heavens are stars means misidentifying the moon and any number of planets, satellites, and aircraft. Another part of the "Wisdom of Life" is being able to make distinctions between specific situations -- stereotying isn't "Wisdom," it's a substitute for thinking.
Rolly Polly, if men operate more off lust than love, doesn't that mean that all women are utterly justified in being insecure? :) And I still don't see how that really tackles my question regarding whether or not mongers should also be considered damaged goods when it comes to relationships. Why is a guy who sleeps with 500 sex workers somehow less emotionally problematic than the sex workers he sleeps with?
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 12:05
JZ,
Let's put it on equal playing ground. A guy who is a sex worker is "damaged goods" a women who hires escorts to please her is not, in my book at least. We have to keep it apples to apples here.
RN,
I always wondered what that first "date" was like when a complete stranger hands you money and starts stripping or barking requests.
My point about the part time job was in reference to JZ's scenario where the lady is seeing repercussions for her attempt to make money in an illegal fashion. Also, read further and you see that I pointed out the aspects that I find to be perks of the job, with the major hurdle being the first advertisment.
Those were exactly my points -- if we believe that to be true about sex workers, why don't we believe it to be true for those who pay for sex? We might make some distinction, for example, (and I recognize this is an over-the-top comparison) between someone who takes money to kill someone and the person who pays them to do so, but we'd feel they fell into the same general category and were both equally morally suspect. Why isn't that the case here?
I understand the apples to apples comparison, but I don't understand the concept that someone who pays someone to do something is somehow substantially different from the person who does what they've been paid to do.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 12:38
Of course it can't be said about the client. The client wants sex, perhaps a lot, but everytime the client makes an appointment it's because he or she WANTS it.
RN, when guys called you were you alway in the mood when they showed up? I can't imagine the answer would be yes. You would not become disconnected to sexual feelings if you get it because you want it even if you pay for it.
The same is would not be true if you get it because it's your job despite your mood. Also, the client can pick a partner who they are attracted to, but the provider usually doesn't. Of course, a provider could turn a client down and I'm sure it happens, but there are more cases of the provider being with a slob than not.
So why isn't the client actually worse -- a freak who will do anything to get their rocks off, including pay for it, regardless of the lack of attachment? Or are you saying that lust is something that is somehow some sort of trump card, that lusting for someone proves you are "ok" and that having sex with someone without lust means you're damaged? I find that a rather odd concept.
I disagree Rub-a-dub-dub as I see many guys becoming emotionally involved with hookers down here, including maybe even me sometimes. If you keep fucking them and hanging out with them, it is bound to happen. Even with some of the girls where I just go to apartments, fuck them, and leave, we end up getting to know each other on a personal level. I know their kids' names and ages and where they are from and get to the point where I care if they are having a good day or a bad day.
Others I have over for dinner and sex and they sometimes spend the night. I've met their friends and they mine. In fact I am becoming more emotionally involved with some of these prostitutes than I did with some actual girlfriends back in the states.
YEMV but that is what it is like down here. Of course I never fell in love or started planning wedding ceremonies with those actual girl friends, either!
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 13:40
I don't see how the two can be the same at all.
You do not have to be in love with someone to have sex with them, but usually you should be attracted to them.
Someone who has sex because they want sex, with or without love, is not disconnecting at all, but a provider is.
Here's what I mean...a "connection" exists for various reasons such as love, but also for lust. It may be two different kinds of connection, but there is a connection that is making the sexual act something enjoyable.
When talking about provider/cleint, casual sex, one night stand..etc you are generally taking love out of the equation because love is something that is work at. The connection that is there is a lustful one, but a provider has to do the act whether or not lust is even there thus disconnecting themselves from a feeling that brings about the desire for sex.
This doesn't mean that a provider cannot fall in love or lust, but how many times can a person have sex that they don't want to have (other than to get paid) before a sense of numbness exists. Keep in mind that the client ALWAYS WANTS IT, but the provider doesn't.
I really don't see how the two can even compare slightly.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 14:20
My point isn't that the provider never wants it or is never attracted to the client, but if she is not in the mood and is not attracted to the client or even both at the same time she will still go through with the act to pay the bills.
The client will always either be attracted or so in the mood that he is willing to settle.
I'm trying to reiterate the point that the provider is going to have plenty of sex that they don't want with people that they probably hope to never see again, but the client gets to pick and choose.
Am I really the only that sees a difference?
"The idea that I could make that total stranger scream out my name got me hot."
Think how hot it would have made you if it were really your name! :)
So, Rolly Polly, following up on your observations, would you say that actors who spend all that time "pretending" such connections for the purpose of theatre or television or whatever are also by definition damaged goods? After all, lots of them work with people they don't even like, have to kiss and make out with them, etc.
Would the same thing be true of a salesperson who is forced to "service" a client they think is a disgusting pile of goo? Or is it that because actual sex is involved that means the equation changes?
And while plenty of people have sex because they're attracted for an instant or to a very minor aspect of someone, plenty more do it simply because it's possible to do it. If a guy will fuck anything that says "yes" (and you can peruse the photo galleries here and see many comments that say this is exactly the case) then I don't see why the person saying yes somehow bears more of a burden. Are you saying it's better to be an undamaged woman who would, as the saying went directly when speaking about sex, "Just close your eyes and think of England?"
Good points, DH -- I completely agree. But let's also keep in mind that no one has to get their heart broken just because they get emotionally involved. There are degrees of everything, and liking the person I'm fucking, hearing about their family, etc., doesn't necessarily mean love or even deep affection.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 15:07
...[C]onnections for the purpose of theatre or television or whatever are also by definition damaged goods? After all, lots of them work with people they don't even like, have to kiss and make out with them, etc.
Absolutely not! This would be like saying kids who play house become immune to marriage. Making out is far less intimate than sex and the sex is simulated (except in the porn industry). If sex workers were involved in making out and nothing more than having the client "dry hump" her then I would renege on all that I have said, but that is not the case.
Would the same thing be true of a salesperson who is forced to "service" a client they think is a disgusting pile of goo? Or is it that because actual sex is involved that means the equation changes?
I find it odd that you don't distinguish sex with conversation. Yes, both can be intimate, but lets be real there is a huge difference.
And while plenty of people have sex because they're attracted for an instant or to a very minor aspect of someone, plenty more do it simply because it's possible to do it. If a guy will fuck anything that says "yes" (and you can peruse the photo galleries here and see many comments that say this is exactly the case) then I don't see why the person saying yes somehow bears more of a burden. Are you saying it's better to be an undamaged woman who would, as the saying went directly when speaking about sex, "Just close your eyes and think of England?"
Well, this goes back to my logic all along that there is something to be said for actually desiring the act of sex for whatever the reason may be. Now, lets say that a women does enjoy it with just anyone the fear changes to a concern that she may cheat on you. I don't think there is a concern at all that an ex-sex worker will cheat per se (although it could obviously happen), but it's just a fear that you are not accomplishing a full intimate connection.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 15:30
There must be a reason to think such a thing first.
RN, if you knew a guy you found attractive and sweet, but you knew he slept with anything and everything in the past with zero discretion and he know asks you out, would you have your concerns?
If you don't know such a thing about a person there is no reason to worry about it, but if a husband comes home with lipstick stains on his boxer shorts..well then I would assume it's time to make assumptions. :)
Well said, RN.
So, Rolly Polly, you're saying it's sex itself that makes the distinction, no matter what. In other words, it's the old "a woman who has lots of sex is irreparably damaged" argument in a particular form.
Please tell me what you mean by a "full intimate connection." Back when it was considered a horrible thing for a women even to enjoy sex, when it was "wifely duties" that one simply put up with, there were certainly (and no doubt are today) many marriages that lacked such connections. Does this mean the people involved were innately damaged in some way?
If playing a role isn't damaging in some other context, why is it so debilitating in a sexual context? That's the crux of the argument, and you're asserting a belief where I simply can't follow the logic. I find it particularly baffling after you've said that men are primarily driven by lust -- surely lust isn't exactly a deep emotion of any great significance, so why should it be some sort of magic bullet that keeps men's characters safe during P4P?
"There must be a reason to think such a thing first."
WHAT????
That's true for a guy, but you don't need any such reason for an ex-sex-worker, right? That's looney tunes.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 15:45
The argument is so simple. I will try just one more time, but perhaps you forgot how this began, so let me start with that.
This all started with the these questions by you, JZ:
Presuming this was a person you felt you knew well enough to consider and were attracted to before you found out about her ex-career, could you say more about those worries? Would it be worrying about measuring up or being compared to a list of clients? Worry about public (or family) exposure of her past? Worrying that, as others have mentioned, there might be some sort of hidden personality or character flaw you might beat yourself up over not detecting? Something else?
So please keep in mind that my statements are talking about potential fear that one could have when they find out the girl they are dating is an ex-sex worker. Fears are not reality, but are enough to destroy a relationship.
Again, it's not lots of sex that causes irreparable damage, it's sex with people who you don't want to have sex with on a constant basis that could create an interal concern that sex may be "numb".
Seems at this point words are being put in my mouth as I never suggested:
that's true for a guy, but you don't need any such reason for an ex-sex-worker, right?
As a matter of fact I tried to suggest the opposite:
I don't think there is a concern at all that an ex-sex worker will cheat per se (although it could obviously happen)
I believe most sex workers have deep scars from the experience of fucking for a living, although I wouldn't go so far to say they all of them are damaged goods, so if you want to take them home to mommy, go ahead, it's just your chances of making it with them is going to be less then the girl next door.
I would suggest to say most sex workers are like women who suffered a rape or an abortion, although to a lesser degree. I think we would all agree that either of these experiences are a tragedy, and most women could use some kind of therapy to get over the the pain.
Now some women, and I known some of these women, think nothing about getting a abortion, it's just another form of birth control to them, but I don't think its the majority of women. Hell, some women don't suffer after a rape, just look at that women Kobe Bryant, allegedly raped.( I guess it's true some women really liked it! Just kidding.)
Some people on this forum try to make the augument: What about the monger, isn't he also damaged goods? Well, yes and no.
Yes, he is damaged if he mongers as much as some of the mongers here. If the ex hooker, doesn't mine the mongers going off every few weeks to get a variety of pussy, then I think the relationship could work.( I won't get into if your can trust the ex-sex worker, because you can't, oh maybe with a chastity belt!)
The male doesn't suffer the same stigma in our society over sex as the women do. It's not the same thing if a male teacher has sex with a female student as a female teacher having sex with a boy student. I have both a daughter and Son, if they happened to my daughter, I would go get my gun. If it happend to my son, I might ask him how was it, and later try sue the school district for money.
I'm sure some men get upset over their girlfriends having an abortion, but I would guess not many need counseling over it.
Rolly Polly, points well taken that potential fears are not reality, and that regardless of the truth of such things such fears can detroy relationships.
And if your entire argument is actually that "someone could think these things" well, fine, no problem, but the questions you just gave of mine were asking about how people thought they might personally react. If you're saying that your personal fear would be that, pretty much by definition, someone who has sex for money loses the ability to have a "full intimate connection" then I obviously accept it, but I still have a hard time understanding the distinctions you're making regarding it. People have fears that someone is just "acting" all the time, and I just don't get the distinction between such fears someone might have with an actress, a monger, and someone who spent time as a sex worker years ago. You seem to feel this should be self-evident; to me it's not.
And I'm sorry if you felt I was putting words in your mouth, but you essentially told RN that there would have to be a reason to suspect a monger of the whole slew of behaviors she described as potential worries about a monger, after saying that would be a reasonable fear with an ex-sex worker. Yes, you said there would need to be evidence of cheating, but you still ascribe negative character or personality traits to the sex worker but not the monger.
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 16:25
Is it not the nature of the profession? Lawyers are looked at as liars and car salesman are looked at as cheats. This does not mean that all are or even most are, but lawyers and car salesmen go into the job knowing the publics views, whether it is hypocritical or not.
Should a sex worker not understand the potential for concern? I guess the question is not "should they" because then you it gets into a utopian society issue and whether or not stereotypes should exist, but the question can be "would it surprise and ex-sex worker if she was not looked at in the same light as, let's say, a doctor or engineer?
Rolly Polly
10-06-04, 16:49
This conversation has been wonderful, but I must bid a temporary farewell as I am leaving to head out of town in 10 minutes.
I just thought I would make the announcement to avoid any thoughts that I may have abandoned the conversation.
I will check on the progression upon my return on Sunday, but I'm sure the topic will have evolved by that time.
RP, always a pleasure discussing things with you!
PsyberZombie
10-07-04, 06:46
Pokey writes =
I believe most sex workers have deep scars from the experience of fucking for a living
You've fallen for an Ancient Logical Fallacy known as =
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"
[ which is Latin for : you're confusing Cause and Effect ]
The Trvth is that it takes some·one who's messed up to get into the Sex Trade in the First Place
It doesn't really matter what the Source of the gal's psychic wounds are : they were there before she started her Sex Worker 'career' ; and they'll be there long after she 'retires'
Which is WHY I'm warning Joe Zop to tread carefully
So, PsyberZombie, what you're basically saying is that only messed-up people get into the sex trade, so by definition if you've gotten into the sex trade you're messed up both during and after. Pokey on the other hand says that the experience itself usually causes people to get messed up, but that it's not an absolute effect. (And does this mean that only messed-up guys become mongers, or frequent mongers become messed up?)
Either logic works ok, if you accept the basic premise it puts forth. I don't in either case. I've met any number of sex workers who purely and simply were not messed up. I've also met those who were. Big deal. I can say the same about normal people, and it doesn't keep me from getting involved with either. I've got friends who were/are serious drug addicts, rape victims, drunks, incest survivors, ex-criminals, etc. You certainly don't need to be a saint to be someone I'll consider being in a relationship with. I'm no saint, either.
And I sure as hell trust my own judgements on people more than I do blanket stereotyping, regardless of the premise behind it. (I'm going to take seriously Warnings from Someone who practices Random Capitalization and makes Generalized Negative Statements? In any event, my questions about this issue were rhetorical, not something based on some sort of pending personal decision.)
I simply don't know that many people who don't bear some kind of scar from life, and I'm not all that sure I'd be interested in knowing them in any event, as I don't know they'd have anything of value to offer to me other than some pie-in-the-sky perspective on life I can't possibly believe. The US Justice Department says that more than half of all women have been physically assaulted either as a child or an adult, that 8% have been stalked, and that close to one in five have been sexually assaulted. So those are all potentially messed up people. Frankly, statistically speaking, a woman who's been a victim has more to fear from me than I do from her, given the high percentage of victimization by boyfriends, partners, spouses, etc., and the high percentage of women who have it happen more than once. I'm not interested in simply writing off ten to twenty-five percent of the overall population (and that doesn't even consider the number of men who I should be worrying about) as people I'm not going to deal with because they might be messed up because they were victims or criminals at some point.
Beauty and desire are not only about perfection but often about flaw. Flaw can mean character as well as defect. Flaw doesn't threaten or worry me, though I'm not going to be an idiot about it and can and do protect myself when I feel it's a good idea. But I'd rather hang with someone who's made mistakes or had negative experiences than with some sheltered orchid who might wilt if ever exposed to sunlight.
PsyberZombie, I also have to disagree with you regarding only "fucked Up" women go into prostitution, althought a great many of them do exactly that. ( I used the term fucked up because DH used it, and it fits, psychological damaged.)
Let take me as an example, I didn't become a fucked up monger until I fucked at least 100 sex workers.( I'm nearing 600-1000 now-lost count.) I mean I was happy having a girl friend and didn't need to supplement pussy on the side as I do now. After 100 I needed supplement pussy, and I found myself not interesed in kissing or holding my girlfriends after having sex. ( I solved that problems, I try to insist that sex workers offer DFK. althought I don't always get.
I think a girl could try recreational pussy for hire once or twice without much damage, It's only after repeated fucking, day in and day out that the damage occurs.
I also find poorer women and where prostitution if accepted the damage is less or even non existent. So yes, I guess JS could find a young part time student/hooker without religious values and that girl could be happy. She is happy she has dreams, but she will still have that deep dark secret eating away at her soul.( what if her husband found out?)
I also found Happy Hookers in some black women. There was less of a stigma for them in the getto neighborhood in LA I use to visit. Some SG, would grab my dick, and say, "I hope you have a big dick, and can make me happy." They use to try real hard to get off, and have some fun too, not like an average white hooker, who wants to get you off and out.
I ask you this JS. I don't know your current situation, but I know you're a monger. Let say you are a single man now, who mongers like you currently do, or did when you were active. Could you meet a nice young women who has dreams of getting married to you, and you her. Could you quit mongering for her, and only fuck her?
"They use to try real hard to get off, and have some fun too, not like an average white hooker, who wants to get you off and out."
I think you mean an average white American hooker. Down here in Argentina, most of them want to have one or more orgasms and I certainly try to see that they do.
Yes, RN, you know what my answer will be because I've answered it before.
Pokey, I am quite married precisely to someone who was "damaged" before I met her via sexual abuse when she was a young child and physical and emotional abuse when she was in college. So I'm very intimately familiar with the demons and problems that lurk there. We've been together now for twenty-five years and there's no one I've met who I'd more prefer to be with, as she's smarter than me, has a better heart, more talents, etc. I've invested a very long time working to repair her self-image, self-confidence, and so on in as many ways as I could. (I didn't eat at a restaurant of my choice for probably five years because I forced her to get used to making such safe choices until it was a natural thing. Now, thank god -- though it's not fifty-fifty, since her tastes aren't as adventurous as mine -- I at least can have a decent disagreement over where we're going to eat.) She is now as confident and self-assured as she's likely to be, has basically blossomed, and I love her deeply. It's still all new and fresh after all these years.
However, physical intimacy is extremely difficult for her psychologically. She's given it her best to try to keep me happy, but it clearly distresses and impairs her, as it just brings up all sorts of confusing stuff, which in turn distresses me. Therapy to deal with all this kept causing more damage than help, as it just kept bringing up worse and worse things and she had trouble functioning. After years of dealing with this I finally asked her to stop torturing herself for my benefit since it really wasn't getting anywhere and because she's fine and good when this stuff isn't roiling around in her head and then I love living with and being with her. I spent a number of years simply doing without anything but my hand, which also distressed her, but that wasn't a good recipe for things either.
So I monger, with her blessing, as a solution to this mess. It is not the solution I prefer, but you don't always get what you want. Mongering offers a way to have physical release without engaging in emotional betrayal, as would be the case if I were to take a lover.
So, yes, I'd have utterly no problem simply being married and fucking one woman. It is my absolute preference. In truth, I would like nothing more than to have only the one sex partner I'm obviously not fated to have.
PsyberZombie
10-08-04, 07:00
DickHead makes an Important Point =
It's AMERICAN Hookers I'm talking about here
Some·one like RN , who grew up in a nation where Prostitution is legal and socially acceptable , doesn't have as high a hurdle to leap to jump in·to the P4P scene as American women do
[ BTW , RN = are those your Initials ?? Or are you a Registered Nurse ?? ]
JZ describes a General Population where a substantial proportion of us are 'damaged goods' psychologically
... but , as in any human trait , there's a Bell·shaped Curve that applies
The 'Out·liers' here [ i.e. more than three Standard Deviations from the mean ] would be the Pope at one end ; and Sex Trade Workers at the other
The analogy of Alcohol is a good one =
Some people are tee·totalers ; the vast majority of people drink some with No Problem ; some are Problem Drinkers ; and the out·liers are hope·less alcoholics
Your average SW is the hope·less alcoholic in this Analogy
I said before that I'm sure there are some P4P chicks who aren't totally screwed up ; but because they almost nearly all are and because they are also Masters of Manipulation and Deceit =
The Wise Monger treads very carefully before deciding to 'Help' one of these gals , beyond supporting her by buying her Services at a reasonable price in her given Profession
Cash Works
10-08-04, 12:07
It looks to me like some of you here are suffering from "virgin worship" i.e. - "if she doesn't fuck, or only fucks one guy in her entire life, then she's a good woman. Otherwise, she's worthless scum and all fucked up in the head."
I find that attitude rather disturbing, especially from mongers. To me, if I were to settle down with one woman, not likely to happen, but if it did, then I would prefer that she had the experience of numerous partners. I'm pretty sure that most posters throughout this forum would agree that an experienced sex partner is far preferrable to one with little experience - analyze the complaints about providers - most are due to inexperience on the part of the provider. Why should this be any different in a, supposedly, non pay for play relationship?
If you want it both ways - experienced p4p provider on the side with a chaste, semi-virginal, inexperienced wifey back home - IMHO, you really need to have your head examined.
If I were to settle down into a supposedly non pay for play relationship that resembled monogamy, not likely to happen, I think it would have to be with 2 or more bisexual women, who are into each other & want me for a little variety. I don't have a problem with them doing each other, in fact, that really turns me on, but I wouldn't want to share them with another man. Call me selfish, I guess I just don't play well with others.
CW
Joe, thanks for sharing and it looks like you have a great thing going if you can stay with someone that long. I'm also married to a great women, but she doesn't know, yet at the same time knows something is up. She sometimes thinks I'm either secretly gay, or have been seeing prostitutes on the side, she doesn't think I have a girl friend, as she says no one would put up with me. Maybe, I'll go into details some other time.
RN, I hope you don't think I'm too damaged, its just that I have this darkside that needs to come out every once in awile. I'm really a mild mannered nice guy 80% of the time.
Cashworks, so you would not mind if your future wife had 500 sex parners, as a sex worker would have had plenty of experience you are looking for.
Saying you would like two bi-sexual women is not really saying much, as most men would not consider their wife cheating on them if she has a girl friend, especially if they invite him to join in.
I tell my wife all the time that one of my goals in life is two have sex with two women, and that I would want her to be one of them. She says, go ahead then, without me.( I have had threesomes many times, but just didn't tell her.)
We go to Mexico a lot, I think I'll take her to a bar, I bet one day she'll let me share her with another women. I hope so, because this lying to her is killing me.
Gee, Cash Works, do you have access to my PMs? :D The sentiment in your post is astonishingly close to something I sent via PM a few days ago! Obviously, I agree wholeheartedly with your observations.
PZ, is your bell-curve simply of the damaged or in general? American sex workers are, in your opinion, the single most damaged? And the Pope sits where? :o Sounds more like an accurate bell-curve of sexual activity instead.
The problem with your argument is that you make this grand general statement about all or most of those who simply happen to be in a particular profession. Where do you place, say, those who work in coffee shops or perhaps accountants in your curve? Dentists? Factory workers? Who's close to American sex workers on the professional bell-curve? Are you saying people just flock to particular professions based on how "together" or "damaged/undamaged" they are? (Obviously I'm being facetious, but c'mon!) And if that doesn't work, how can it possibly be taken as a valid statement about such a large group of people?
The analogy may be graphic but the logic is flimsy. It's just new curtains for the same unsupported assertion.
Pokey, the number of sex partners a future wife has had truly wouldn't be an issue for me, really. That sure as heck was never a criteria when I was dating. I could care less if she had 5 or 5000 partners. (Hell, I would prefer someone with a clue about how to make my head explode on cue.) But the bottom line is that I wouldn't be marrying someone because of their past, but because of our future.
And best wishes for making your situation work out!
Can we please not overrate prostitution by calling it a profession? It is a trade. Law, medicine, accounting, architecture, engineering, now those are professions. Cooking, bricklaying, prostitution, carrying mail, now those are trades. Granted one can practice one's trade in a relatively more professional manner or a relatively less professional manner. However, there is a definite and distinct difference.
Is the practitioner of a trade less inherently worthy than the practitioner of a profession? No, but the latter has invested a lot more in his or her education and training and therefore deserves to earn a premium return on that investment. From an economic standpoint, things won't work out too well if it is otherwise. The relevant concept is that of human capital.
Having said that, I just spent the evening with a guy who is an accountant and an attorney, and his friend, who is a prostitute. I like the guy and he is a very good friend. However he takes himself too seriously and I would rather hang around with her if I have to make the choice. Fortunately I do not, at least at the present time.
Sinanju Master
10-08-04, 22:23
Cash Works
Thought I'd make another rare cameo appearance here at the risk of the audience tossing rotten fruit at me. I think that the idea of a dude wanting a "virginal *****" (to best describe this phenomena many guys want) is based on ego. Put yourself in the shoes of the guy who wants to fuck a chick who he thinks is HIS ALONE. Said woman has NEVER had another man in her life, BUT she wants it ALL THE TME from said lucky guy. I think it's an issue of "ownership" and sexual prowess from the perspective of the male ego.
I don't know how I'd react if I were in a relationship with a woman who had say, 350 sexual encounters. I'd be appreciative of her sexual knowledge, BUT in the back of my mind, there would exist the thought: "How do I measure up to the OTHER 349 guys she's been with"? It would be like someone auditioning for "American Idol". Do I REALLY want my ego crushed from a FEMALE Simon simply because she has so much more experience? IF she were to take the approach that she wants to show me things that are guaranteed to send her into orbit, then by all means, do so, but DON'T do it in a condescending manner.
To reconcile the two views, I'd enter into the situation with the attitude that I'm in the presence of someone who can teach me a LOT and I'd take away as much from the experience as POSSIBLE. Two things she (whomever the much more experienced partner would be) could NEVER trump me on are enthusiasm and the willingness to LEARN.
Any responses to that, RN?
Point taken, DH, and thanks for the correction. I rather had in mind the "oldest profession" bromide but extended it a bit far. Don't think it changes my point, but it does make me wonder whether being Pope is a trade or a profession... ;)
"but it does make me wonder whether being Pope is a trade or a profession... "
Neither, just another low level scam.
JustSumFun
10-09-04, 06:42
Cash Works
I'm pretty sure that most posters throughout this forum would agree that an experienced sex partner is far preferrable to one with little experience - analyze the complaints about providers - most are due to inexperience on the part of the provider. Why should this be any different in a, supposedly, non pay for play relationship?Well put mate.
I would rather have an experienced provider than an inexperienced rookie. I have been tempted to try the new comer on many occassions by the madam of the house that I visit. Most times I pass, asking for one of the "older" providers who I know for a fact give great service. On the few occassions when I have agreed I have had mixed results. Let's just say not really very satisfactory.
P4P is all about having fun and paying for it. We dont really want to go in there and teach them how to do their job. It is a catch 22 situation I reckon. The new comers have no experience and most punters shy away from inexperienced ones. So how do they get their experience. I guess they should just grab at evey opportunity (customer) to try out stuff and see the customer's reaction. That is the only way they gain experience.
Once went with a real newbie. Probably only had two or three guys before. Very raw. But enthusiastic indeed. Tried a lot of things. And kept asking me if I liked this or that etc. Now that is someone who is going places. When I was leaving the madam asked me how she was. I told her to watch her. She will be a star in the house. She was. Pity she got deported recently.
Justfun
PsyberZombie
10-09-04, 09:36
** On The Psyche of the Sex Worker **
How does a perfectly normal little girl go from playing with Dolls , to grow up and start sucking Dicks for a Living ??
Almost always , there has been some *huge* psychological damage to her Ego [ and I mean 'Ego' in the psychiatric sense ; *not* the Lay sense ]
The three most common Paths of Destruction [ and lots of P4P gals have suffered All Three] are =
1. Prior Sexual Abuse
Getting repeatedly Raped by a family member is the 'Classic' Case
These are the girls most likely to be working for a 'Pimp' , ironically enough
Self·degradation is a large component of these gals' Motivation
2. Drug &/or Alcohol Abuse
Psychiatrists now recognize that there is an "Addictive Personality" that up to 10% of the Population has
In its most extreme form , the Addict will do *any·thing* to get the Money to support their habit
To my Fellow Mongers , I ask hypothetically =
Suppose there really was a Demand for Straight Male Hookers
[ ALL Male Prostitutes are Gay and hired by fellow Gays ; "American Gigolo" not·with·standing ]
How *Desperate* would you have to get before you agreed to DATY or screw any smelly , repulsive old woman who asked ??
Pretty darn desperate , I'll bet you said
In fact , you probably said =
" I'd give up the Heroin / Booze before I'd do that "
But these P4P Addicts CAN'T [ or just WON'T ]
3. Inherent Psychiatric Dis·orders
Social Norms mean a lot less to some·one suffering from Shizophrenia or Bi·Polar Disorder [ formerly called "Manic·Depression" ]
And some·one with Psychopathic Personality Disorder will be both a Hooker AND a Robber / Murderer
[ See = Aileen Wuornos of Florida , who was executed for murdering six of her Johns ]
In my humble experience , though = the truly 'Loony' Hypo·manic Chick is the Most Fun , fer shur !!
RN wrote:
I think I read that same book. It also said that all priests are paedophiles, all Arab men are terrorists, all black men are crack dealers, all gun owners are psychopaths, all Asian men have small penises, and all mongers are filthy perverts who are too fat, old, bald and ugly to ever get sex for free.
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch3-3.html
Hey I resemble that remark.
LOL.
Peace:
WSJ3
:)
Cash Works
10-09-04, 12:00
RN,
OK, that settles it, I'm selling the house & business and moving to Perth! I'll PM you when I get there. You don't happen to have a girlfriend that you wouldn't mind sharing with me do you?
Actually, you nailed my sentiments exactly on a couple issues, primarily the Ego part. If she's had a lot of previous partners and chooses to stay with me, to me, that would be a great ego boost because I would assume that she was comparing me to her previous partners & the fact that she chose to stay with me means that I must be the best of the lot - or at least, not the worst - there's something about me that is so great to her that she's willing to stay with me in spite of my "failings" - maybe that's sex, maybe that's something else, point is, she's CHOOSING, to stay with me.
I think if I were to actually "fear" that my mate would run off with somebody else, it would be with an inexperienced partner due, as you say, to the "grass may be greener" idea, since she wouldn't have anyone to compare me to. Does that make me arrogant or just self confident?
Pokey,
Read the previous paragraphs. I think they pretty much explain that I would rather have a wife who had numerous previous partners than one who had very few. However, I can't really see me getting married. As I've mentioned in the past, I would only consider marriage if there were children involved - in this day and age, accidentally knocking up a woman is unlikely for me, since I keep it covered. If I have any kids out there, they'd be at least in their teens by now - if she's managed to raise them without me for this long, why would she need to marry me?
JZ,
No, I don't have access to your PM's. I do believe, however that we pretty much agree on most things from a "big picture" point of view. It seems to me that you like to disagree with me though, so you have a tendancy to get pedantic (one pedant to another - pot calling the kettle black?) in order to find some point to debate with me.
SM,
I think the whole "virgin worship" thing goes way back to the stone age, when monogamous relationships were declared a "good thing" by the local shaman. If a man has to be financially responsible for offspring which are presumed to be his, then the only way to know that they're his and not somebody elses, is if the wifey has never had sex with another man. (In this day and age, though, I suppose a DNA test should be able to cancel out this entire argument.) I'm pretty sure that's part of why society in general frowns upon short engagements (after all, if she's not a virgin, she could have been knocked up by a previous partner).
It may also be part of the reason why I wouldn't want to share my wife (wives) with another man. Once she's with me, I don't want her to be with another man. Who she's been with in the past doesn't really bother me, in fact, as I've said earlier in this post, it's actually a bit of an ego boost to me if she's been with a lot of guys in the past & chooses to stay with me.
CW
PsyberZombie
10-09-04, 20:29
YIKES !!
Take a 'Chill Pill' , RN
You spout off all this hyperbolic blather about prostitutes as though it wasn't a direct insult about RN's character, and when she shoots back in a fairly mild manner you tell her to chill out?
That's hilarious! Do you always go around punching people and then admonishing them about their anger issues?
PsyberZombie
10-09-04, 21:23
Joe Zop remarks =
That's hilarious! Do you always go around punching people and then admonishing them about their anger issues?
To quote the Old Zen Masters =
" Hatred consumes the Hater ; Anger consumes the Angry "
PsyberZombie
10-09-04, 21:33
To quote yet another Old ZEN Saying =
" Questions are a Burden to Others
... Answers : a Prison for One's Self "
PsyberZombie
10-10-04, 08:55
RN writes =
We are all wired differently, which is a blessing because otherwise there would be nobody out there doing the 'nasty' but necessary jobs in our society.
" Nasty but necessary "
That's an Interesting characterization of Prostitution , RN
I read that Article you posted about the sex lives of hookers in Australia
... but as I mentioned earlier , I am discussing AMERICAN P4P Workers [my Essay does *not* apply to , say , Korean AMP workers ]
I'll bet if you did a Study of American Prostitutes , you'd find the Incidence of Prior Sexual Abuse ; Drug &/or Alcohol Addiction ; and the presence of Inherent Psychiatric Disorders would be much , *much* higher than any reference population you could compare them to
Why you find this So Offensive is a Mystery to me =
My essay "On the Psyche of the Sex Worker" is based on my anecdotal experiences , to be sure
... but I don't see any·one here arguing with my basic Premise
"... but I don't see any·one here arguing with my basic Premise"
Then you can't read very well either, that's for sure.
And your statements are offensive because you're an absolutist who makes generalized stereotypical statements as though they're self-evident fact. Don't "bet" about a study -- cite some actual evidence for your blanket assertions.
PsyberZombie
10-10-04, 18:31
RN writes =
"According to local stats, 80% of our street girls are heroin users, many are homeless and most have been abused as children and continue to be abused as adults"
"If you did a study of American street workers, I'm sure your 'facts' would be pretty spot on."
So I guess that means You AGREE with my Basic Premise , RN
".. but as I mentioned earlier , I am discussing AMERICAN P4P Workers"
Yes, and earlier you said, "Both Joe Zop and Pokey surely must know that any woman who turns to the Sex Industry to "Make Ends Meat" has "Issues" that make them not trust·worthy enough to *ever* be a Signficant Other
"The only exception to this Rule would be the gal who was merely an 'Exotic Dancer' in a high·class Strip Club where No Contact with the dancers was allowed"
You later clarified the latter statement to include any woman who is "a Lap Dancer , who is basically a Hooker of a lessor degree."
Your basic premise has been "that it takes some·one who's messed up to get into the Sex Trade in the First Place."
So are you saying this about all American P4P workers? Only streetwalkers? Only streetwalkers plus maybe lap dancers who happen to be blonde and walk with a limp and who allow groping in the back room after the music ends? Kindly clarify.
PsyberZombie
10-11-04, 09:04
To : Joe Zop
My premise applies to American Sex Workers , what·ever form that that may take
There's basically No Difference between a Lap Dancer and a SW
In fact , you often find that as these gals age , they tend to change their 'Specialty' =
A Hot young Chick may start out as a high·priced escort or Stripper / Lap Dancer ; only to be forced in·to Massage Work or Street Walking as their looks fade
As RN says = P4P workers can speak for them·selves
... but a lot of what they say is designed to Deceive and Manipulate you
This is why Guys constantly find them·selves 'helping' a Sex Worker ; but they never seem to work up quite as much Empathy for their down·on·their·Luck Neighbor
I'm just warning you not to Trust one of these gals any furthur than they can spit your Load , that's all
Jeez,
Not even Adle'z plus aliases uses phrases like:
"I'm just warning you not to Trust one of these gals any furthur than they can spit your Load , that's all"
:(!
Well, please count me as one who finds your premise to be utterly full of baloney. Your posts on this are just big generalized assertions that tell nothing actual, nothing evidenciary, nothing with a Detail, nothing discernable about personal experience. It's just a generic spew of venom, which makes your advice of far less use than even that spit load.
And I, for one, not only do have empathy but also help my down-on-the luck neighbors in a variety of ways. Having empathy doesn't necessarily make you a sucker, but entirely lacking it does make you a jerk.
One way to Add a Lot of additional Credibility to your Posts is to randomly Capitalize about every Third word and to avoid Using periods
Especially if You make a New paragraph every sentence
This makes you Appear to be more Educated and perceptive than You would otherwise
If you Don't believe me Just ask Nibu
Rolly Polly
10-11-04, 16:20
Since when did Nibu make different paragraphs?
By the way, I'm back in town and will try to catch up so I can spew my some venom as well. :)
I did a report based on "local efforts to control prostitution in Thailand" that is posted in the "living in Thailand section"
PsyberZombie
10-12-04, 06:15
Apparently , some of you here take Great Offense at my suggestion that virtually Every American P4P Worker is screwed·up mentally ; and shouldn't be Trusted
My Mother used to say =
" If you fall out of that tree and break your leg , Don't come running to me !! "
Well , if you ignore my Advice and some Hot Hooker talks you in·to 'helping' her [ which 'help' will *always* be Financial in one way or the other ]
... and then you get *burned* =
Don't say I didn't Warn you !!
PsyberZombie
10-12-04, 06:32
Seen on the 'Letters to the Editor' Board , and written by Yours Truly , natch !! ==>
p.s. I don't appreciate Dickhead's Ad Hominem Attacks on me on that board ; but they aren't bad enough *yet* to warrant an Official Complaint
Don't make me click on that "Report this Post" line , D•H
Keep it Civil , is all I'm saying
... and Lose the Derogatory Comments about my Style of Writing , if you would be so kind.
[ The 'period' at the End of that last Sentence was Just for You ;) ]
Daddy Rulz
10-12-04, 08:42
I don't think anybody who has spent any time here in sex prison can disagree with PS's basic premise that a lot of American sex workers have prior history of psychological damage. Of course nothing is ever all inclusive and there will always be exceptions to every rule but of the vast majority there will be history's of sexual abuse, drug addiction, abusive relationships ect.
Personally I think that would apply more to SW than escorts web independents or agency types. Working as a SW is a lot more dangerous than when somebody knows where you are, and their phone has been verified. I don't think many people would put themselves in the position of most SW's here without having issues.
I don't see myself much as the settling down type either as Cash Works I enjoy variety far too much. If I ever did though it would never be the girl next door type. Give me a woman with a past everyday. Not only are they more experienced but they would naturally have less taboo's I would think because of that experience. (RN if I'm wrong feel free to jump on me, or to correct me though I think I would enjoy the jumping more) As far as I'm concerned the "girl next door" can stay there and yes I would take a former, or present, sex worker home to meet my Mom.
I don't know if I would want to settle down with somebody presently in the profession though. This has less to do with the work than the fact that a Carpenters house always needs work and a the Barbers kids always need haircuts. I can see it already, after a hard days work my Lady comes home and I want some loving and she has seen FAR to many penises for one day. It never fails to amaze me that the old double standard applies with so many men on this board. It's ok for us to session with 100's of women but for a lot of men here their contempt for the providers is barely concealed.
A couple of asides,
RN, why would a bloke want to stop with you bringing home "A" friend, come to the States and you can bring home as many friends as can fit on the bed in any variety. If needed we can get a bigger bed. I only ask to be able to help from time to time, watch a few times more than that, and hear ALL the stories.
I agree with Dickhead about the whole Tradesmen/Professional theory. There are a lot of P4P women that share their amateurs conviction that all it takes for a good session is a vagina. whatever work you choose do it well but it doesn't take the same amount of preparation to be a good provider as it does to be a good Neurosurgeon. By the way Dickhead I would be quivering as a result of PS's threat to hit the "report" button, what a sissy.
Cash Works, we could both sell our stuff, move to Perth and compete for yon Maidens heart. I reckon she could come up with an interesting friend, or two :) for the one she didn't pick.
I reckon all I'm saying is why not remove the cultural bias from our thinking. If I could get paid for DATY I would be one rich happy man. If an attractive caring woman wants to accept some of my hard earned dollars for a good GFE than why not give her the respect she deserves.
DR
Rolly Polly
10-12-04, 10:31
PsyberZombie,
How about the sex workers in the US that are "working" their way through school?
When I first started this hobby I used to frequent escorts (until that starting to kill my bank account). One escort I used 3 or 4 times was a girl that was in nursing school. I even dropped her off at class one day after a rendevous. She has since retired from sex work and is a full time nurse. Is she a mental case also?
Sex work industry cannot be generalized. There are strippers that do "favors", escorts, and SW's and then some that are on drugs or not on drugs in each of those categories. to lump escorts and crack head SW's in the same generalizations is obviously flawed.
I would say that trust is a serious issue with most sex workers and a general policy to trust none is not a bad policy to have. Certainly it is a safe policy to have. This doesn't mean that you can't find a trust worthy sex worker, but caution for the sake of protecting your assets and profile is a smart move.
Most of my mongering is with SW's and there are a few that I frequent that I can swear are trust worthy to me, but I don't let myself get complacent for fear of a bad thing happening.
Rolly Polly
10-12-04, 11:52
Some things are hard to make disappear. Let's say there is a famous black jack player, who is the best cheat in town. So much so that if he walks into a Vegas casino all cameras are on him along with the watchful eye of undercover security.
Now, 10 years later, he gives up cheating and black jack all together, but 5 years after that he wants to start playing again in an honest way. He's 100% sincere in his honesty, but is he going to be trusted?
I know of a few escort types that did it for drug money, but most escorts I know had better intentions. I'm not sure that the stigma would apply to all sex works, but I'm not sure I would ever trust a reformed SW, who used to be a crack head.
Once again, it's tough to lump all sex workers in one category.
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