The Morality of Prostitution

[Joe Zop]

Wow, I'm glad I went to bed early (comparatively) before this thread erupted, as this was whack and I'd have no doubt stayed up all night playing! What fun!

But I still see the issue revolving around the twin towers of control and choice. I believe in true and genuine choice, which means people should have the right to make stupid choices also, as long as they're made freely and under scenarios where they understand the options and consequences, and they have enough control so that if they don't like the choice they've made they can make another, and where their choice doesn't unduly affect another. (This is obviously also a perspective that can fit to other areas, such as drug use.) So if a woman actually wants to give some guy a percentage of her income for nothing, understanding that's what it is, (be it PNG's entrepreneur or a significant other, where presumably the "nothing" is offset by other factors) that's certainly her choice. In the classic pimp scenario, though, this is accompanied by pressure and manipulation, which makes it less of a free choice -- clearly, few people are going to willingly do this without believing they're getting something positive in return. In the case of a brothel, a massage parlor, escort service, etc., there are plenty of clear upsides for the woman (in addition to various drawbacks, but that's true in all job situations) so the choices are arguable and defendable. In the case of a pimp (baby, I need some new jewelry) that upside is, as best, vague. And here's the key difference where I disagree with you, PNG -- an entreprenuer who collects a percentage has brought something to the table as well, whether or not they're participating on a daily basis, whether it's the environment, the opportunity, the brand, whatever. The pimp just brings the illusion and implication of such things. Every sex worker ought to be able to hire marketers, bookkeepers, security, anyone they want to work for them. (That's the entrepreneur model I prefer.) While like Dickhead I'm in favor of things being cheap, that doesn't mean I'm not all for every woman being able to make as much as she can.

Also, believing in choice doesn't mean that I don't reserve the right to want to piss on the people who push choices I consider bad -- so while a woman has the right to choose a pimp, that doesn't mean I still don't think the pimp ought to be smacked.

And DJ, screw you, you self-important judgmental prick. I've changed absolutely nothing about my behavior or perspective except my opinion of and interest in engaging you. You're just a guy who craps on the floor, looks up and sees the sun shining, and says, "Wow, see what I did!"

[The Virgin Terr]

i think it is condemning prostitution to condemn pimping, at least in the sense that a pimp provides a service to the prostitute, i.e. protection. i don't have any personal experience with pimps so i base my statements on theory. i'm sure in real life alot of abuse occurs. i think this is because pimps, like sws, come from violent impoverished backgrounds where violence is the norm.

the rapper ice-t claims to have been a very successful pimp before he got into rap. anyone who gets the rightwingers into apoplexic fits by rapping about killing cops in self defense can't be all bad. (for those of you who don't know, ice-t is most famous for composing a rap titled "cop killer". it's pretty well documented that police abuse african americans from the "hood".)

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
i don't have any personal experience with pimps so i base my statements on theory.

Then perhaps you should listen to those with actual experience? BTW, a good reference book on this subject is "Pimps, Wimps, and Gimps" by Richard A. Head, available on amazon.com for $29.95 plus shipping and handling.

[PurpleNGold]

Joe,

I'm not arguing about right to choose. I firmly believe that every person should have that. And, that the choices should be limited only by the boundary where a choice would infringe on another's choices.

I'm trying to argue that there is a separation of aspects between the job and the person doing the job. I've known plenty of entrepreneurs who abused those they employed. Even knew one who smacked her seceretary once (she's now in jail for other reasons). An entrepreneur doesn't always bring anything to the table other than an idea. He/she can go to an incubator to have the idea grown. So, how is that different from a pimp who opens a bar and invites women to come sell sexual services? A good example of this would be the proprietor of the Eden Club in Bangkok. He's most certainly a pimp. But, would you say he's deserving of ill treatment? I don't think so. He's just an entrepreneur.

Think about it like this. I define a pimps job as being the protection and promotion of one or more working girls. Now, to say that such a job is inherently evil is to say that the protection of prostitutes and promotion of prostitution is inherently evil. If you say that, you are saying that prostitution itself is evil. And, unfortunately for the sake of debate, there isn't anyone posting on this board who would say that.

Now, the manner in which a pimp goes about performing his job (or whether he actually performs it at all) can be, and usually is, evil. Evil pimps should be beaten and tortured as horribly as possible. But, someone who provides a gaggle of consenting girls with customers, guidance, marketing and protection is not evil.

[The Virgin Terr]

couldn't have said it better myself, p&g. dickhead, i didn't know you were an author? you've been holding out on us. there is a real book titled PIMP i'd like to get ahold of, an autobiography.

[Joe Zop]

Well, PNG, then I think we should define exactly what it is we're talking about, as that seems key here. By your definition, it's not only the proprietor of the Eden Club who qualifies as a pimp, it's the receptionist at every massage parlor, the security guard in the parking lot outside who waves customers in, etc. I don't think that entirely has the necessary level of nuance, since by that definition the folks I mention above, as well as the webmaster for such a worker's site, are now pimps. (And there actually are a number of people who'd like to smack Marc at the Eden Club, btw, but that's more about personality than role.) Is it the combination of protection and promotion that makes the definition fit? Where is the line drawn so that the job is the job of pimp?

I generally simply don't see it possible to make the kind of separation by role you propose -- the answer to a question and the attitude depends on the specifics. I can't be "pro-doctor" or "anti-doctor" without knowing the circumstances and the specifics of the issue. So, for example, if the question is "do you have a problem with prostitution?" the answer is, in general, no, but it depends on the circumstances. I definitely have a problem with it when it's forced labor, such as indenture, for example. I have a problem when it involves those under the defined legal age. I have a problem with the scenario RN described coming into in Oz, where it was based on deception. Do I have a problem with people providing a secure environment and/or promotion for prostitutes? Generally, no, but it depends on the circumstances -- and the circumstances where I can be most generically comfortable are those in which the worker has control as well as choice. And in this case, it's also about control of the money. A security guard, even one working on commission, doesn't control the money -- a pimp does.

I'm sorry, but bringing an idea to the table is bringing something, in the same way that bringing reputation, contacts, vision, etc., are bringing something. And in making by extension a parallel between workers in an incubator and prostitutes, in that each might be doing work for different kinds of entrepreneurs, I think things are stretching nearly to the point of noncongruence.

-----

DJ, I don't give a damn what you do, but if you expect to launch a personal attack on me out of the blue, misread everything I write, give me attitude about your inability to read and try to tell me I've said something different, then try to imply that your actions have somehow changed my behavior or that of a place on the board, congratulate yourself, and somehow a day later expect me to play nice with you, well, then you're an even bigger pompous idiot than I thought.

[PurpleNGold]

Joe, I think we are both arguing the same thing. It's just a different way of saying it. Both of us are pro-choice and, at the least, indifferent concerning morality of prostitution. We're both against forced labor (or women being tricked into it). And we're both for persecution of the vile scum that would beat, enslave or or otherwise harm a woman.

The only difference is that I believe that the possibility of a non-evil pimp exists. And, yes, I would consider security guards, acting as touts, to be pimps. The secretary at the front desk? not really. That's just an ancillary position that keeps the process running smoothly. The secretary isn't promoting or protecting the girls. Only taking money and keeping track of who's next in line.

[Joe Zop]

Precisely my point, RN -- the definition is fluid and broad, so I find it impossible to make some sort of blanket judgement. The dictionary definition of a pimp is simply someone who gets customers for a prostitute, which is a very wide range of possibility, often made even wider by legal definitions which also look at it in terms of virtually any kind of support of prostitutes at all. This leads to exactly how laws usually attack prostitution, as you note with receptionists, and as also happens with roommates and significant others.

I find it difficult to talk about the evil or lack thereof of pimps under this definition, as it ends up being so broad as to almost be meaningless, and a lot of the discussion ends up being about where you grab on, as in the Jain story about the blind men and the elephant. Am I going to say that the receptionist at a brothel is inherently evil? Of course not. And when I say pimp I'm not referring to her. Am I going to say that street pimps or men who buy women into indentured servitude are probably misunderstood nice guys? No way. Dickhead's made it very clear exactly what kind of pimps he's referring to, and I think that helps make the distinctions clear.

I'll concede PNG's point that certainly under this quaggy definition there are no doubt some pimps who are not inherently evil, in the same way that I'll concede the idea that there are probably some governments who are not inherently worth complaining about and whacking at (well, perhaps at least one government, somewhere, possibly, maybe.) But my default position is going to be to view both with extreme suspicion until I've a reason to think otherwise, and to ask what the specific situation is to which we're referring.

[PurpleNGold]

RN and JZ:

I agree with you both. This is what I was trying to get Dickhead to see. His view seems to be that anyone who can be considered a pimp should be executed. That just strikes me as tunnelvision.

[Dickhead]

Brothel security = not pimp even though WA law says it is.

Receptionist = not pimp even though WA law says it is.

Guy who arranges dates for women and takes a cut = douche bag and pussy and I wouldn't do it for a living. Fun to slap around but should not be tortured and killed. Pimp? Gray area.

Guy who forces women to prostitute themselves, takes as much money as he feels like, beats them, etc. = pimp plus other types of criminal as RN points out. Rip his tonsils out with a fish hook, pour boric acid on his testicles, stick knitting needles in his eyes, bury him in the sand with only his face and pecker sticking out, pour on molasses, and release the insects, reptiles, and rodents.

Are we clear now?

[PurpleNGold]

Crystal clear. And, again, your imagery is vivid.

[Joe Zop]

Precisely my take on things as well, DH. My only caveat would be on the arranger -- if this is someone specifically hired by the woman then I've lots less concern. Still not somebody I'd want to hang with, but not a major scumbag. Put him on salary and I've got little trouble with him at all -- he's just someone the sex worker hires for marketing.

[Joe Zop]

A real choice by a functional couple, with the person doing the work truly making the choice? Up to them, and I've no real criticisms, especially under your theoretical scenario ruling out other options. Hard to believe there won't be some kind of repercussions down the line, but it's their call, from my perspective.

[PurpleNGold]

To me, this would be the case of a benevolent pimp. I think the guy should be doing everything he can to right the family ship. He should be taking any job he can in order to bring in money (hopefully enough to make ends meet without the need for his wife to go out working in this biz).

As Chris Rock said, "I'm not saying it's right. But, I understand!"

There's another variation on this theme though. What if the guy is making enough money to make ends meet. Or, that the guy makes enough combined with his wife's secretarial (bartending, office manager, executive, etc) job. But, like you said, the wife wants to do this. She insists on this being her calling.

In that situation, I think the guy should dump the girl and go find himself a woman who wants to be in a one on one relationship. I don't say this because I think what she's doing is wrong. I just think that the relationship is headed for real trouble, and the guy should get out before he gets hurt.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
And now we're back to the fact that sex work is not considered a legitimate choice of occupation. I didn't say that she felt forced by circumstance to go back to sex work, and I didn't say that she didn't WANT to go back to it. I said that she chose to. Both you and Joe made mention of 'other options'. Why should they consider other options, if that's what she wants to do? If I had said that a stay-at-home Mum decided to go back to her old job as an accountant to support the family, would you have said the same thing?


Yep. I was under the impression, like you pointed out, that selling sex was the only option available. So, to clarify, I'm saying that he should provide her with that option. Or at least make enough money that they could, together, make ends meet without her needing to sell sex because she could get a lower paying job in another industry.

It comes back to choice. If the man is a lazy fuck, and is putting the woman into a position where she can choose to starve or sell sex, then he's basically using passive aggressive tactics to coerce her. That makes him fall under my idea of the evil pimp.



It's not fair that sex workers should have to make the choice between their love for the job and their love for a man. [/i]

You got me there. Okay, I hadn't completely thought through my position on that. But, I'll stand by it from a personal perspective. I'd get out of the relationship in a hurry.

[The Virgin Terr]

seems to me RN, that your position on this (sexworkers having mates) has evolved quite alot so that now you're in essential agreement with moi, in theory at least. i suspect you still have some distance to go b4 you accept it for your own personal life.

for me, paying women for sex is a no-brainer. the reason why: it works! at least with some, those to whom sexwork is a "calling". i don't understand why any guy , or any gal for that matter, would oppose a practice in which all involved get what they want. but hey, people stupid and weird enough to believe in garbage such as the "holy bible" are beyond this person's comprehension. there's a good article in the american newsweek magazine this week about president bush's born again christian faith. i've come to learn that i disagree with everything the religious right holds to be true. all i have to know about any issue is what side the religious right is on, because that's sure to be the wrong side.

eat my shorts, richard a. head.

p & g, what the hell is an attractive woman doing with a lazy fuck in the first place? also, can't she choose another occupation if she doesn't want to hook so she doesn't have to starve? or she can do what alot of women do and become a legal prostitute by hooking up with a rich man in a relationship. isn't that why rich guys get preferential treatment by most women? face it, women are attracted to money. i understand little else about them, but that's all one really needs to know to motivate them to fuck. isn't that right, rubber nursey?

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
all i have to know about any issue is what side the religious right is on, because that's sure to be the wrong side.


Gotta say that I disagree with this. I tend to disagree with the religious right too. But, I believe in keeping an open mind. Who knows maybe they'll have a good point here or there. Closing our minds just because most of the shit they spew is counter to nature only makes us as thoughtless.


p & g, what the hell is an attractive woman doing with a lazy fuck in the first place?

Don't ask me why. But, it happens often enough. Maybe the guy didn't appear so lazy when they hooked up.


also, can't she choose another occupation if she doesn't want to hook so she doesn't have to starve?

The initial assumption was that no other jobs were available. Take, for example, women in very poor countries where the woman is probably not educated and simply doesn't have the options that we take for granted.


or she can do what alot of women do and become a legal prostitute by hooking up with a rich man in a relationship. isn't that why rich guys get preferential treatment by most women? face it, women are attracted to money. i understand little else about them, but that's all one really needs to know to motivate them to fuck.

This belongs in the 'American Women' forum :D

Editing done just to fix the markup tags.

[The Virgin Terr]

in my opinion you exhibit better judgement in having sex for money than you do when you choose osmeone for other reasons, i.e. that time you brought some psycho home who refused to leave after getting his free sample and decided to rape you. maybe you ought to change the criteria your using in choosing men for your personal life. like i said in a previous post, i think women bear primary responsibility for the fucked up, psychotic world in which we live, with thugs like saddam hussein and religious nuts like bush in power. it just seems to me it's awfully strange that dangerous psychos like charles manson are much more successful in attracting women than a wimpy gimpy would-be-pimp such as moi.

returning to the subject of pimps, i just came across an interesting website by a former street walker who married her pimp and had his child in spite of the fact he frequently beat her and once nearly killed her. just another case of women's psychotic preference in men coming back to haunt them. granted, the pimp was psychotic also. her narrative of their relationship while not pulling any punches still portrayed him as not a monster, but a very fucked up man she tried to love but had to eventually flee for her own life. she also wrote some great touching poetry. you can find her site as a link from www.menbehavingbadly.ca

[PurpleNGold]

VT,

Bush (and his administration) is as much a thug as Hussein. He just uses his 'religious nut' status to hide that fact. Do you remember the big uproar about the withdrawal of abortion funds to third world countries? That was within the first month of his administration. Well, while that was taking up all the news media's attention (the news media is so happy to play along), he also nixed a little executive order that's been standing since Nixon. What was that order? It was an order forbidding the CIA or other federal agencies from assassinating foreign citizens (specifically intended to mean foreign leaders). And, lets not even talk about our wonderful Attorney General and his quest to be the personification of Orwell's nightmare.

Regarding the woman marrying her pimp, I think that there is a psychological condition that describes the phenomenon. Something about abusers being idolized by their victims. That chick just got really fucked up in the head.

[The Virgin Terr]

religious indoctrination ia a form of psychological abuse which predisposes it's victims into becoming pricks themselves. it's nice talking to someone who shares my political views, png. but it takes a natural born thug like saddam to show what real brutality is about. bush and ashcroft are just momma's boys in comparison. bush and ashcroft specialize in bureaucratic brutality, like the good fascists they are. they're just good christian soldiers.

[PurpleNGold]

bush and ashcroft specialize in bureaucratic brutality, like the good fascists they are. they're just good christian soldiers. [/i]

Adolf Hitler was a devout Catholic. In his writings, he defended his actions against Jewish people on the basis that they were an affront to God.

[PurpleNGold]

Found this at: http://www.bangkoksex.org/wife_cleopatra.htm


We advocate only consensual, non-commercial sexual relationships between adult partners, which is the only form of sexual activity appropriate for the capitalist, free-market, democratic world of the 21. century.

I have a question for the committee. Shouldn't non-indentured commercial sex be praised as one of the highest forms of capitalism? A woman selling a commodity for which she has no overhead?

BTW, a few lines after the above quote, the article provides the the link for an internet dating service, well known to sport ads for working girls, and promotes it as the end all of 21'st century dating.

[Joe Zop]

It's pretty hard to take pronouncements too seriously from anything that contains both "Bangkok" and "sex" together, and when you combine that with statements about what's appropriate for the 21st century (as opposed to what was appropriate for the 20th, perhaps?) we're well into the Department of Silly Walks.

As far as your question, well, we are supposedly becoming ever more a service economy, and providing services is rather what sex work is all about...

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by RN
Ok, out of interest - what's the general feeling on boyfriends/husbands then?

Let's say the guy can't get a job (or maybe is sick or injured or whatever). The family have huge expenses, so the wife decides to go back to sex work to support the family. The husband stays in the house as security, and sometimes arranges bookings for her. They put all the money she earns into a joint account, like many other single-income couples do.

There is no violence, no coercion, no threats - the decision was entirely hers, based on the financial needs of the family. (Please don't say that she should have chosen other work, or that he should have talked her out of it - let's assume that she can't, or doesn't want to, work anywhere else).

What's the verdict?

Any guy who is NOT sick and can't get a job is just a fucking loser and not a man but half a man or perhaps 32.6% of a man. And if he is injured he still has a an obligation to retrain for some other kind of work. Now if he has a severe illness then maybe but I personally would kill myself for the life insurance before I would allow this.

And why do they have such huge expenses? People should live within their means and manage their money so as to avoid problems. The phrase "save for a rainy day" comes to mind.

Just my 2 Argentinean pesos worth.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
what the hell is an attractive woman doing with a lazy fuck in the first place?"

Exactly! Why are some women attracted to loser after loser after loser? DH

"face it, women are attracted to money. i understand little else about them, but that's all one really needs to know to motivate them to fuck. isn't that right, rubber nursey? "

VT is morphing into a cynic. Perhaps he has been reading my posts for too long. But I agree completely. DH

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by purplengold
Found this at: http://www.bangkoksex.org/wife_cleopatra.htm



I have a question for the committee. Shouldn't non-indentured commercial sex be praised as one of the highest forms of capitalism? A woman selling a commodity for which she has no overhead?

BTW, a few lines after the above quote, the article provides the the link for an internet dating service, well known to sport ads for working girls, and promotes it as the end all of 21'st century dating.

Not just no overhead but no cost of goods sold. 100% product margin and a markup of infinity %.

[Joe Zop]

And why do they have such huge expenses? People should live within their means and manage their money so as to avoid problems.

Aw, c'mon, DH, can't you tackle the hypothetical without begging the question? Just take it as a given -- you could postulate any number of reasons why people have high expenses and the guy an inability to get a job decent enough to cover it. Circumstances can trump the best preparation for couples with common levels of resources.

Let's just say the guy was walking to work at his second job one day (because he was saving money both for a rainy day and also to better buy things for his kids and wife) and was run down by a drunk driver. He's physically unable to work because he's got substantial nerve damage or something else, and the medical bills are killing them because he needs treatment not covered by insurance. Or whatever. What about RN's scenario then?

And I disagree that women are attracted primarily by money. I believe they are attracted by an expectation of and desire for security, which follows the natural female need to create a safe nest in which to raise children. (Not that this can't manifest itself in the same precise way, and not that there aren't plenty of money-hungry women --as well as men -- but it's a rather less damning way of saying it.)

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by Dickhead
Any guy who is NOT sick and can't get a job is just a fucking loser and not a man but half a man or perhaps 32.6% of a man. And if he is injured he still has a an obligation to retrain for some other kind of work. Now if he has a severe illness then maybe but I personally would kill myself for the life insurance before I would allow this.

I think that you're a bit short sighted concerning the availability of work. There are places, even in the U.S., where finding work isn't as simple as wanting to. And, then you have the issue about whether or not the pay for a job is enough to support a family. I mean, the average american couldn't make it on the minimum wage; then, you have the illegal immigrants who work for even less.



And why do they have such huge expenses? People should live within their means and manage their money so as to avoid problems. The phrase "save for a rainy day" comes to mind.


A short while ago, a friend of mine (who simply can't afford to pay $400/month that the health insurance companies wanted) was doing some work on the roof of his house. He, slipped and fell. Went to the emergency room, went through a surgery to put a pin in his right arm. About two weeks later, he's having pain in his left wrist. Goes to see his doctor, and ends up in surgery to rebreak and reset a broken bone. Now, this guy is a consultant, and since he can't use his hands for two months (both are in casts) he can't type. This guy had saved for a rainy day, but, unless your very wealthy, it's nearly impossible to save for a deluge.

BTW, this guy's not married, so the prostitution issue was not an option ;)

[The Virgin Terr]

alienation. i've been alienated practically my whole life, and for most of that time the cause of it was murky at best. even now it remains somewhat that way, although what i've learned since beginning down a path of mental liberation has crystallized a focus for this alienation, and that is how repressed human societies are. for example, i, like many lonely single people, have my most physical and sensual relationship with a non-human animal, in my case a cat. i know society will allow me to keep an animal as a pet solely for my own pleasure and in my case as in many others, as a sort of consolation for the fact that i am lonely and unable to secure the human companionship i desire. i think this is because society doesn't allow humans to openly pursue relationships of pleasure as it allows us to do so with animals of other species. i really hate humanity for this reason. i know things would be a hell of alot different if i had the power to force others to accept my beliefs (which are basically that coercion is only acceptable in defense against other coercion) as they have the ability to force me to accept theirs (human nature is evil, sex is a predatory passion, people can't be entrusted to run their own lives and also maintain an orderly society). so i am forced to repress myself to prevent society from forcefully repressing me (i.e. imprisonment) for doing something as terrible as propositioning a woman i don't know but am attracted to in a sex for cash exchange. if i want to do that i have to resort to a black market or travel a long distance to participate in a legal one, but in either case prices will be inflated and spontaneity and chemistry largely sacrificed. why shouldn't i be able to solicit any cute girl i come across? in any human community there are many attractive females of childbearing age, who are both capable of having more plentiful and more enjoyable sex and financially benefitting from it, because there are always many men willing to pay an attractive woman/girl for an erotic experience. shouldn't people be able to decide for themselves what kind of sex lives they wish to lead without fear that society will forcefully disapprove even though it's freely consensual? would society really fall apart if that kind of freedom existed? i don't think so.

[The Virgin Terr]

to summarize my last post: society doesn't allow human beings to openly and freely have sensual relationships with each other. we are forced to deny our essebtial animal nature. this is very very stupid and very very wrong. i disagree with the idea that our passion unchecked leads to violence. i think quite the opposite is true: by repressing our animal nature, we become more violent, as epitomized by the endless wars we engage in, sometimes to the extent of genocide. people are fucked up big time, and i think if we don't change we will perish. i think if we don't change, we should perish.

[PurpleNGold]

VT. I agree with you about the repression in society.

I think it's slowly chaging to a less restrictive environment though. Look at the attitudes towards public nudity. Decades ago, a one-piece bathing suit was scandalous. Now?

As our society becomes more and more free from this silly belief in a stupid religion, we will become more and more free with our attitudes towards sensuality. Not that does anything for you in the here and now, but, at least it's encouraging that things are getting better.

Also, as for your alienation. You found this forum, which, as far as sex for money is concerned, is populated by like minded individuals. BTW, there's a group of mongers that are going down to TJ at the end of this month. If you live within striking distance, it might be a good chance to socialize with others of a like mind.

[The Virgin Terr]

thanks for the invite, png. a few years ago i moved to san diego for awhile, partly for it's proximity to tj, and of course i went there often, but now i've moved back to the hometown i was raised in, which unfortunately is in upstate new york, so i can no longer enjoy the fruits of cheap and delicious mexican poontang. also, i'm cursed by being very strong and eclectic in all my views, which ensures there's virtually no social group to which i can comfortably belong. for example among mongers, i can't stand those who aren't politically progressive. among progressives, i can't stand those who aren't enthusistic about mongering. among mongers who are politically progressive such as the group that post in this discussion, i still find faults, such as the insistence that minors need statutory protection from "predatory adults" regardless of actual consent. i just can't find anyone to belong with, anyone who doesn't offend me by disagreeing with my views and forcing them into the closet. but thanks for your concern.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
i just can't find anyone to belong with, anyone who doesn't offend me by disagreeing with my views and forcing them into the closet. but thanks for your concern.

I feel for you. Please understand that I mean no offense, but, you might want to seek professional assistance (A shrink, not a working girl ;)). Being ultra-sensitive to disagreement is not healthy. And, the stress and depression you might be under could be relieved with proper treatment. Hell, just talking through some of your issues with a non-judgemental person might be all you need to start learning to associate with people more freely.

Also, maybe read Hegel. He wasn't the most entertaining philosopher, but he did focus on the positive aspects of disagreement.

Oh. And, I lived in Upstate NY for a while (Saratoga Springs). I feel for you there too. With all that snow, no wonder you sound a bit depressed ;)

[The Virgin Terr]

thank you rn for being a convenient target to express my frustration with the choices women make regarding men. thank you very much. it's not your fault that eons of evolution dispose you to prefer strong aggressive males over intelligent gentle ones, as is the case with females of many species.

thanks again, png, but i got little use for shrinks. i wrote down a quote a long time ago i'll try to find to post here. goes something like "we don't need shrinks or therapists to teach us how to be "well adjusted" to a fucked up world". also reminds me of the character of mcmurphy in ken kesey's novel ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST who ends up lobotomized because of his refusal to allow his spirit to be broken so that he may become "socially acceptable". sorry, i prefer martyrdom to "adjustment". and cold snowy weather doesn't bother me that much. i might actually prefer this climate to the heat and aridity of a desert.

and i don't think i have a problem with intolerance. actually let me put it another way. i have a HUGE problem with intolerance. i'm tolerant of everything EXCEPT intolerance. that's why i say the only excuse for coercion is in self defense against coercion. in other words, as long as you don't initiate the coercion, you don't have to fear coercion from me.

[The Virgin Terr]

i found the quote referred to below, as well as a few others i'll share now.

"experience ... is the only teacher. we don't need priests and we don't need analysts; we don't need mental crutches of any sort. more than anything what i criticize is their efforts to restore a maladapted person to a society which caused him to be maladapted in the first place. they want us to accept things the way they are. but things as they are are wrong."

"i think the cute approach to sex is on a par with the cute approach to the atomic bomb."

both of the above quotes are taken from the playwright henry miller, from his interview with playboy magazine i read in a book of compiled playboy interviews, PLAYBOY INTERVIEW VOL. 2 i highly recommend this reading, as i do the books from which the quotes below are taken. in it's early days playboy magazine interviewed some truly fascinating people. reading about them and their ideas was part of my early self directed education which led to becoming a freethinker.

"the salvation of the world lies in the maladjusted." -martin luther king jr., from p.101 of his biography, LET THE TRUMPET SOUND

'Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. the latter can't understand it when a man doesn't thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." -albert einstein, from p.215 of WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN by bertrand russell.

i relate to all of the above. i am a maladjusted great spirit.

[PurpleNGold]

The maladjusted great spirit sets about changing his/her environment. That's why he/she meets opposition.

[PurpleNGold]

Also, as regards the shrinks. It's not always about making you fit in. It can be about providing you with a non-judgemental ear for your problems. You might be amazed at how much better you can feel (and how much more proactive you become) after letting a lifetime's burden off your chest. Just a thought.

[Dickhead]

"blush" :)

[Joe Zop]

Thank you, thank you very much, RN, for responding to this issue. I've been doing my best to play nice with VT by not responding to his posts as he requested, but his comments on this have really strained my ability to stay civil and do so.

[PurpleNGold]

Awwww.... RN, you noticed me :)

Back to the morality of prostitution...

Okay... Another player in the "Is he a pimp?" game that we've been playing. What about the people who run sex show websites? You know where you pay to have cyber sex with some young chick? Are those people pimps? If they are, are they the condemnable pimp?

[PurpleNGold]

How about the ethics of prostitution? What defacto obligations does a working girl assume when she agrees to take money for sex?

Obviously, the rip off girls (take the money and dash) are wrong. But, what about the girls (and services) that take the money and then don't live up to assumed expectations?

Example: Guy calls an escort service and asks for a specific race/size/hair color, etc. Or, maybe the guy has called in response to a specific ad. The agency promises a girl that matches guy's specifications, or the one in the ad. The agency promises an 'all-inclusive' rate for a full hour. Different girl shows up. Girl demands an extra tip for a 'good time'. Girl gets the money, gives the guy a 15 minute strip tease, a hand job or even sex, but makes it a quickie. Afterwards, she's out of there as fast as can be.

Now, let's keep focused: the guy was stupid for letting the little head handle the negotiations (or lack thereof). That's not under discussion.

What is under discussion is what parts of this are unethical.


Agency delivered wrong girl
Girl demands more money
Girl implied more was on the menu than actually was
Girl left before the 'full hour' was up


Feel free to add more example scenarios. I was just trying to get the discussion rolling with this one.

[Joe Zop]

Personally, I see nothing "unethical" on the part of the provider under your scenario, with the possible exception of her implying there's more on the menu than there is, and there the devil is in the details -- I don't see in your scenario exactly where that happens, unless it falls in the "good time" category, which is a nice one-size-fits-all term. There's nothing in what you describe to at all say that the provider had knowledge of any agreement or promise made by the agency. One problem is in your definition of "assumed expectations" which is so broad and slippery as to allow for an indictment of any sex worker, no matter how amazing her activities or performance.

The agency is obviously engaging in a bait and switch by sending the wrong woman, but there's no way you can clearly fault the woman for this -- she would have to know it, would have to willingly take part in it, and, even then, she's not the one who made the promise.

The rest, from my perspective, fall into the category you don't want to discuss -- of engaging (or not) in clear negotiations with an independent contractor. If it's not defined, it's not agreed to, and therefore making moral or ethical culpability indictments is impossible. Part of the process is setting the price and the work, and not doing that means it's all he said/she said. Wanting more money and wanting to maximize profit while minimizing work is not immoral or unethical on the face of it, though it obviously may well be bad business.

This is different from a brothel scenario, where there are clear expectations and delineations of behavior, and where the woman has clear knowledge of those, and is far more in the status of an employee than a contractor.

[PurpleNGold]

I think the assumed expectations thing isn't as broad as you think. I'm talking about a girl who comes in knowing that the client expects full service when he hears 'Good Time'. She knows what the spirit of the statement is, and abuses the client's trust. Too me, that's unethical.

As for not wanting to discuss the client's stupidity. I just don't think there's anything to discuss. The client is clearly not thinking with the big head and he's leaving the door open by not negotiating up front. That leaves the door open to the grey area of assumed expectations.

[Joe Zop]

See, I don't agree. You defined lack of a good time as including "even sex, but" she "makes it a quickie" which to me is full service. Lousy maybe, but still full service. If you don't want to include that, the equation changes, but saying someone is unethical because they're a lousy fuck is a stretch to me.

The spirit of the thing to a provider isn't necessarily where the guy gets to pop as many times as he wants and take as much time as he pleases. The spirit of the thing is get the client off, and your examples mostly said that happened. A very large number of providers define it as one pop and it's over. Obviously, many guys exgaging providers are hoping for a better time that a quickie, but that's where actually setting the terms of the interaction comes into play.

As I said, it's lousy business, but I don't say unethical.

[PurpleNGold]

I said that she:


Gives a 15 minute strip tease
A hand job
Quickie sex


The idea is where is the line between unethical and bad business? Personally, I think that quickie sex is bad business given the implied promise. But, the less is unethical.

[The Virgin Terr]

png, i think psychology and psychiatry are legitimate professions that help alot of people, but i doubt if they are appropriate for me.

intolerance and coercion are really the same thing. the parent who forcefeeds a young child is obviously being coercive, or to put it another way, intolerant of the child's own desire to not eat, either because they aren't hungry or don't like a particular food. most if not almost all parents display such coercive intolerance in their treatment of their children, just like our governments are coercive and intolerant of individual citizens who deviate from their prescribed moral path in such things as sexual behavior and drug use. i don't know where to look to find anyone who isn't opposed to all forms of initial or pre-emptive coercion. i'm fatigued with this site, where clearly my views aren't respected. do you know of any therapists who can refer me to a planet where human beings exist and have somehow evolved differently so that the only proscribed behavior is intolerance? of course this is a rhetorical question.

mary kay letourneau is currently serving a multiyear prison term for the crime of statutory rape. she was a 35 year old schoolteacher, mother, and wife in an unhappy marriage. she befriended a talented and precocious 12 year old pupil. over time the friendship became "romantic", and they had sex. she became pregnant, and it was discovered by her husband that someone else was the father, and eventually that her adolescent pupil was in fact the father. she was of course imprisoned for "victimizing" the hapless youth who "of course" was too young to know what he was doing, and how he was being taken advantage of by this monstrous "predator" with no previous criminal record. of course the legal system and all other "responsible" adult authority figures completely disregarded both mary and her young lover's protestations that they were in love and no abuse occured in their relationship. mary kay was released on bond including her assurance she would no longer "abuse" her lover, but of course passion and love trumped governmental oppression, and they were once again caught, leading to the current situation where lovers are forcibly separated, one labelled a "sex offender" and doing serious prison time, the other labelled a victim and forced to do his best raising their child without it's mother, and for everyone else the cautionary tale of their example, the same example made of heidi fleiss and thousands of other pimp/madames/prostitutes and mongers, and thousands of people who are currently imprisoned for possessing a "controlled substance" such as marijuana. that lesson is, the government owns your ass, and don't you ever forget it!

now, more intelligent and compassionate people such as joe zop and rn approve of statutory rape laws, backed by the irrefutable science and logic that says young people are too immature to make "adult" decisions like whether or not they want to have sex, and therefore cannot possibly consent to it (except, of course, if their chosen partner is equally immature, or marries them, in which case it's ok). being unintelligent and uncompassionate, it makes sense to me that the primary reason young people make foolish decisions regarding sex and relationships is because of a lack of experience, and statutory rape laws only ensure they can't get the benefit of older, wiser more experienced [artners in learning about sex and relationships. it makes no sense to tell them "you're too young to have sex, but if you do, it must be with someone who's also too young! the corollary to this thinking is only people who are "in love" should have sex, and young people are too young to be "in love".

stautory rape laws serve as good training for young people in teaching them that authority figures have no respect for individual autonomy, which will serve them well when they become legally recognized adults with scarcely any more autonomy than children have when it comes to the "adsult" world of sex. women can't dress or act provocatively, because to do so is an indication they want sex, and only wh*res want sex unless they have a partner they are "in love with". likewise, men can't openly sexually approach women they aren't "in love with", for to do so is to treat them like wh*res, in other words to disrespect them.

[The Virgin Terr]

joe zop, i never said i didn't want you to respond to my posts, only that i wasn't going to read them, which i didn't for awhile. i still avoid them at times, like i will now in anticipation of your usual fascist defense of the oppression of youth, and condemnation of adults who disagree with that oppression. your use of pseudo science to support your position, just like other pseudo scientific claims that are used to support right wing ideas such as the veracity of paranormal religious phenomena, or to counteract legitimate science in support of wiser environmental policies. like anything, science can be abused to support anyhting, such as german nazi claims of "aryan" racial superiority. face it, you have neither logic nor science on your side, only faith and dogmatic certainty in your own virtuosity.

just a little more personal perspective now on why i vehemently oppose statutory rape laws. anti-prostitution laws already serve to terrorize me into refraining from being open , honest, and unfearful when i meet an attractive woman. statutory rape laws serve to double my paranoia, since i'm attracted mostly to youthful women, and it's virtually impossible to differentiate a 20 year old from a 15 year old. therefore, i tend to feel "secure" (relatively speaking) in approaching women i'm interested in sexually only if they have obviously lost some of the bloom of youth, i.e. they're over 25 or 30. statutory rape laws are just another tool the government uses to effectively terrorize people into having negative feelings over their sexual desires. fear, fear, fear!

[Joe Zop]

And you have what on your side, VT? Other than "faith and dogmatic certainty in your own virtuosity"?

Then here it is, whether you read it or not.

The problem is not that you want respect for your views, it's that you demand agreement and acquiescence, and are as quick to label people who disagree with you as you say they are to label you.

But to you somehow that's not coercive. Somehow a criticism of your views is a fascist attack, but you making grandiose and basically spiteful attacks on RN, venting your own frustration on people you don't really even know, and making judgements about their life choices, somehow that is ok. You are very good at dishing it out, but not so good when it's turned on you, and you don't give the same respect to which you feel you're entitled. Disagreement and disrespect are not the same thing, but I will admit my respect for you has lessened when I read your attacks on the one woman who posts here.

And as far as Mary Kay Letourneau, let's please not forget that Vili Fualaau, the student in question, when he became an 18-year-old, filed a lawsuit against the school system for not protecting him from Letourneau's advances. He lost, (and there are indications that his mother may have pushed things) but it also indicates that as he reaches adulthood he has a somewhat different perspective on the events. To point to an at-risk kid, messed over by his mother, with his father in prison, as somehow being the "poster child" for injustice regarding statutory rape is more than ludicrous. This kid's been abused by virtually everyone he's come in contact with, from his parents to Letourneau to the system. Heaven help us and heaven help our kids if that's the future.

The fact that you have trouble differentiating a 15-year-old from a 20-year-old says far, far more about you than it does about them. I don't at all share in your difficulty -- it's astonishingly easy to tell the difference, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and I come in contact with both age ranges frequently, and work with both. You can't tell the difference between the two, so in your logic you conclude there basically is no difference, as opposed to questioning your own inability to recognize one, and therefore to you, since you're sexually attracted by youth, keeping you out of sexual contact with them is somehow an injustice.

Perhaps, sir, you are simply not as perceptive as you claim you are. And given that you've spent countless pages here detailing your frustrations in personal relationships, your inabilities to connect as you'd like to with women, as well as your general rage and hostility toward them for not recognizing the obvious depth of your ideas and brilliance, etc., tell me, please:

What would possibly qualify you to teach inexperienced children about relationships? It would seem, from reading what you post here, that all you have to teach is frustration and anger, and, as women, that they should understand that it's their nature to be ******, that they should all be available for the right price, and that they should just hurry up and figure out what that is.

Real visionary, that.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
statutory rape laws serve to double my paranoia, since i'm attracted mostly to youthful women, and it's virtually impossible to differentiate a 20 year old from a 15 year old.

VT, you've got me worried about you. Let me say that disagreement is not disrespect. I think you have a confusion there based on your previous post.

Second, let me say that you've got me worried. The difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old can be murky. Hell, even between 16 and 18 year olds. But, 15 and 20? Dude. That's a hard one to swallow. I've seen 15 and 16 year olds and thought, "Damn! She's fucking beautiful." But, there has never been doubt in my mind about her age. And, subsequently, I've followed the previous thought with. I hope I get to meet her in a few years.

Now, I agree that the current state of statutory rape laws are a bit ridiculous. At 18 and 1 day, a boy has sex with a girl who's 17 and 364 days. The parents find out and swear a warrant against the boy. Ridiculous. But, a 45 year old man pops a 12 year old? Come on. There's no question that the girl does not have the mental capacity to give consent.

Also, I don't think the Mary Kay example is a good one for showing your argument. Mary took advantage of her position as a much older adult and as the child's teacher. Will the boy be traumatized for life? Maybe not. Was he mature enough to make such a choice? We can't say for sure. But, we can say that it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to protecting children from predators.

[Joe Zop]

Yawn -- Dick Johnson couldn't make a watch change, wouldn't have a clue if it did, and one of the most unchanging things around is Dick Johnson's obsession with the brilliance of the workings of Dick Johnson and his illusion that anyone changes anything based on his peurile postings. You should just go measure your Dick Johnson again, since that makes you happy. I don't need "opportunities to make peace" as I'm not the one who started with personal attacks, and if you think somehow my posting a couple of short responses is something that is brand new and based on your ravings, well, gee, how typical. You call on me to "chill" while posting on a message that's more than a week old and taking some fresh whacks? (Read ahead a bit -- see any other references to you? Clearly, you're the one who's not interested in letting things lie.) Do you tell the temperature outside by looking it up in history books?

Your examples are as ludicrous, meaningless, off-point and as much "fancy gibberish" as what you protest against. A fifteen-year old's choice? Where does that come from -- we were all obviously talking about adults. People old and broke in third-world countries? You're gonna fix that somehow by controlling their choices? Feed the hungry and stop the spread of AIDS worldwide while you're at it, ok? A little bit of regulation is good? Where did I say I was against that?

And your contractual example says nothing -- that's a choice made by a willing participant who understands the consequences of her action -- which is precisely what I advocated.

Work a little harder on that remedial reading course, DJ, and maybe you'll be able read faster and keep up. An ability to actually understand what you read would be a major bonus, but that's no doubt too much to hope for, based on past example.

[The Virgin Terr]

it should also be pointed out that the "victim" in the mary kay letourneau case was the aggressor in their relationship. he put the moves on her, not vice versa. it's a well documented case, with a movie that's been shown on the usa cable network starring penelope ann miller as the heinous child abuser. her real crime? acknowledging, and surrendering to a politically incorrect attraction. the real predators? the legal system and those who support it that insists that it must not be acknowledged by legally recognized adults that legally recognized children are actual human beings, capable of having sexual desires and possessing sexual attractiveness. oh no, we adults must protect the purity of the youth! even if in doing so we must deny the reality of their feelings as well as ours. it burns my butt that mary kay letourneau is in prison. it should also be pointed out that her "victim" didn't wake up the next day, month, or year and suddenly realize 'my god, i've been taken advantage of by an evil ancient temptress!' he remained adamant in his assertion that he wasn't a victim.

joe zop, i think you're a pompous, politically correct, self righteous jerk for your characterization in the past of non-coercive, harmless individuals like mary kay letourneau as predators.

rn, i'm disappointed in you. it was previously apparent that you favored joe zop over me, but to blatantly imply that he is more intelligent and compassionate is going too far. you've permanently lost some respect in my eyes.

png, i recently met a very attractive woman in a bar who i cautiously approached, because i thought she might be under age. she claimed to be 25. we disagree on age perception. with men it's usually easy to distinguish between 15 and 20, but with women who mature quicker there's little difference in my opinion.

joe zop, i lied. i did glance over your response. as usual, you have or claim to have a detailed acquaintance with the particular example i brought up, and find fault with my claims. acknowledged.

[Skinless]

Joe_Zop and D J: Both of you stop it. Joe, DJ has some valid points (of argument, his flaming you is out of line for many reasons). Your thing of control and choice IS bourgois crap. Korat glue sniffers or others I have met are not exercising choice and it is wrong to believe they or their pimps (fellow glue sniffers) are. And I don not like you saying otherwise bcause that makes you wrong. There IS a very large element of exploitation in all this and you should know that damn well. The BB One, as one example, (yes, her again but others would do equally well) is a victim of her beauty, her lack of education, her all. There are many more like that. Najene and the rest might also be victims but they and we can always walk away and well you know it.

DJ: Joe_Zop has a lot of good things to say. At one stage, he and I were just about the only posters on the Thai Women board. We spoke about mermaids and other important things. Joe_Zop writes for his own reasons, he goes into the Kangaroo:) and other bars for his own reasons, which are probably as stupid as the reasons we do what we do.

I don't normally post on this board or on the American women board as I have nothing to add to them. Just back off. Joe_Zop has important issues he wants to tease out and, as for the American board, his posts and Miller2k's are a breath of fresh air when compared to the self obsessed whiners who lurk there. If you don't like their converstation, just ignore it like I generally do.

Joe's posts on the Thai section are equaly valuable. He is not a Freeler; he supplies different information but no less valuable for that. Like Freeler, he would be worth meeting, but for different reasons. In that respect, it might be added that only he and the dreaded AdleZ lasted the meeting till the very end (the one you got up in the middle of your US night and toasted).

Joe_Zop is not a pompous ass. He searches for soemthing else. Shit. We have been through this before on the Thai board but in a much more civilized and adult way.

As the great Nibu says: peace, unity, mutual respect and less flaming. OK? END OF THREAD.

[Skinless]

Sorry RN. I am not going to buy into this. I will simply make two points:

1. You and Joe_Zop are wrong and both of you should know better. You claim to be a Perth based prostitute and activist. That being so, you should have seen how hollow this "choice" you speak of is. It is certainly not informed choice. There is also a degree of rape/statutory rape to it. And it is the exact same argument NAMBLA etc make and it is the counter "argument" to what Jackson says about having child sex here. BY drugs, I mean heroin and that is a different league. Joe_Zop claims to have done time, to know people from all walks of life, priests etc.
That being so, he must know that to imply doing crack coke/heroin (and its consequences, such as prostitution for women who have not the "courage" to steal) equals choice is to rape the English language.
2. Just keep the argument civil EVERYONE. Joe_Zop has valid points. Point 1 is not one of them and I find it very annoying just as I found his dismissal of BB's pregnancy by some selfish lump of Australian shit. (I am not being racist but a lump of shit who impregnates a vulnerable woman and boasts of it to his friends and then fucks off back to Queensland is a lump of shit) Like you (and me), he comes at this board with a particular set of baggage, beliefs and what not. He did meet the infamous AdleZ and enjoyed his time with him. Most of us here will never meet. Why not keep it civil and learn from others even if all we can learn is to agree to disagree?
3. Ok, a third point. Why not? It's not my bandwidth anyway. Keep posting Joe. Your thesis will make some sense eventually but only if you cut that crap about choice. As you well know, playing with words and what if scenarios is a poor substitute for good arguments.
4. On a more serious note, I played some Japanese ladies in 4 in a row at BKk airport and did VERY well out of it.

[The Virgin Terr]

i have just one more point to make re. the letourneau case, and then i'll cede this discussion to the other threads taking place. jz, if i was vili i'd be mad as hell at the system also, and i'd be willing to make any cynical attempt to make it pay for what it had done to somebody i cared about. to try to make it pay as it had made mary pay for the "crime" of acquiescing to my seduction of her.

[Dickhead]

Mary Kay LeTourneau is a rapist and a sick fuck and I think VT has short eyes.

[Joe Zop]

Whoa, Skinless, I very specifically said I advocated informed choice, and people having a clear understanding of the consequences of their choices and the ability to change them. I never said that people should just be going out and using heroin or sniffing glue. (I've been with two people on heroin buys -- neither of which I knew was going to happen -- and I have nothing positive to say about anyone at all involved in that scene other than that the immense addictiveness of the drug is sadly very true. One of those situations was probably the most terrified I've been in my entire life.)

I also very clearly have always been talking about the choices of adults, not minors, and I resent both you and DJ spinning my argument otherwise. If I had said or implied as you say, VT would be embracing me as enlightened and on his side as opposed to pouring his own brand of scorn.

I take the basic tack that victimless crimes should not be criminalized -- so if someone wants to smoke dope that should be up to them, even if it's bad for them -- and that people have the right to live their lives as they see fit. Ditto drinking, ditto smoking. Maybe not good choices, but ones that should be available -- and the latter are simply because they're defined as legal. And prostitution falls into that category as well.

Do I think someone is a complete idiot to have a pimp? Absolutely. Do I think, presuming they truly, truly know what they're signing up for and want it, that they should be able to? Yes, I do -- it's their call, not mine. I'm not into S&M either, but if people willingly want to play, that's their call. I want to be advised if people think my choices are stupid, but I don't want someone getting in the way of me making them. If someone chooses to be exploited, and they've got an understanding of what's involved, then it's up to them -- and that's true whether it's being paid a pittiance as a laborer, being in sex films, being a boxer heading for brain damage, or being a prostitute. (And this does not advocate lack of regulation -- people have to also be responsible for impact on others of the choices they make.)

Am I involved in exploiting them? Very possibly, and I completely admit that, as do you. I vote with my dollars, and don't give them to people whose choices I feel are horribly wrong -- I don't sleep with or give money to people who I suspect are going to take it to support a habit or give it to a pimp -- but it's their choice about how they want to live. You cannot stop people from being victims by forbidding them; only by informing them and being in charge of your own behavior. This is an example of our basic political difference -- I've said before that I fall squarely into the left side of the liberal camp, and I know you're on the other end of the spectrum.

You misread me, btw -- I never said I did time; I said I spent time working in a jail. (Sure felt like doing time, though.) I do come from the crappy side of the tracks, though, and the neighbors and friends I grew up with are generally exactly who we're talking about.

And if you felt I dismissed the BB one's pregnancy, I humbly apologize -- that wasn't my intention, and I have absolutely no disagreement with you about a guy who does that, boasts of it, and doesn't live up to his responsibilities. As I've written (and taken lots of crap for) in the American women section, I believe that guys are responsible for the kids they help create, no matter what the scenario.

I'll bow to your request and let the argument with DJ drop and will just ignore him henceforth. It wasn't me who began it, and it's not my interest to hang around this board to engage in flame wars in any event, and never has been.

Finally, VT, I'm sorry, but that story was all over the news and I read extensively about it. Hell, you couldn't escape it. I'm hardly going to apologize for that.

[Skinless]

Skinless Swan song: I bow out after this. It was just the senseless flame war that got to me.
1. RN: Heroin equals no choice. If you know nothing about that, count yourself very lucky. Stealing, mugging etc takes one form of "courage", letting fat fucks fuck you takes another. Heroin addicts who rob can make a lot of money coz they have to. Heroin is different from anything anyone who does not know of it knows. Joe_Zop will back me up on that. Many prostitutes also have low esteem and their way of life reinforces it. This is seen in places like Thailand all the time and is the reason most of them buy shit jewelry and end up broke and diseased. Many Australain brothels, I believe, ban heroin users, for very good business reasons. The argument/fact that prostitutes make lots of money is as old as the hills and as true for some of them as it is false for more of them. Heroin is different. And so too, perhaps, is a finely tuned caste society. There is NO ESCAPE from either.
2. Joe, you kick off with senseless Liberal shit. These people are beaten before they begin. Go back to your roots, cross those tracks again, pack a switch blade and look around. Wake up and smell the crack cocaine. I don't think we have any basic disagreement on this but I must confess that Liberal "Informed choice" shit sets me off. We are no angels here but we do not have to be devils incarnated. Indeed, on the idea of choice, you now stand full square with AdleZ who says the Thai ladies could do rice paddying, road laboring instead. Please do not think I am flaming you but talk of "informed choice" is red rag stuff to me. I am, of course, into the heart of darkness and I now know exactly where it lies. And, a minor point, I am not a far right nut.
3. I see our Thai Women section has picked up. Posterlion is posting poetry.
4. Now, be good, no more flaming. Ignore anyone near the bridge and don't talk to strangers.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by Dick Johnson
If it is a woman's choice to be with a pimp who takes her money, who treats her like crap, does it make it right just because it is her choice? Some prostitutes love their pimps, even though they are low life to us. What about a pros choice to use coccaine or heroin? Or a 15yr old's choice to sell her body for money? Are these to be encouraged just because it is the women's choice?


Yes
Yes
Unfortunately, at this age, you end up with the issue of maturity and that infringes on the quality of the choice, so no.
See Above


Just my opinions



So choice and control are both unrealistic fancy gibberish. You can't enforce it and you can't encourage it. Perhaps a better way to think is consideration for the women's interest.

A little bit of regulation is good. In many places even if prostituting is legal, solicitating and pimping is not.

Now you're getting inot an issue of who's the right person to say what's the best interest. Our government (mostly) thinks it is, we all pretty much disagree with there decision, no? If we didn't, then we wouldn't engage in the hobby, right? So, since we disagree, we think they are wrong. Therefor, we don't think they should be making this choice. So, then maybe it should be left to the woman? If not, then who?

[Joe Zop]

Amen, Skinless -- H is just plain bad shit, and it has nothing to do with choice once it's got you good. It has all to do with need.

I'm hardly saying everyone has or uses choice, simply that it is my personal belief on how things should work. And that's true even on the bad side of the tracks -- perhaps even moreso, because if you're beaten before you begin then being empowered to make your own choices can be the only thing that gives your life validity and hope. People have greater and lesser amounts of options depending on how they're thrown into this world, and the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument clearly doesn't always hold water because there aren't enough boots to go around. So no disagreement that for some the job isn't an escape from anything, but that still doesn't render the choice invalid, because, hey, what is there that guarantees an escape from those circumstances? There are a million ways to generate low self-esteem, presuming, in fact, that it's not life's default position. :)

And again, I'm certainly not calling you a far right nut -- I've labeled myself, and referenced an earlier conversation where you described yourself as more to the right than me. Given how I've defined myself, there's a pretty broad range before you even get to moderately conservative...

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
Please excuse my recent outburst.

Ok, there's a few too many topics going on at the moment, so I figured I'd just make a comment on PNG's and catch up later.

"Obviously, the rip off girls (take the money and dash) are wrong. But, what about the girls (and services) that take the money and then don't live up to assumed expectations?"

Firstly, I wanted to say that this is not a problem specific to the sex industry. This occurs in business across the board. What about the hairdresser who takes your money, then cuts your hair way too short? What about the doctor who charges outrageous consultation fees, and then refers you somewhere else because he can't work out what's wrong himself? Unfortunately, it's always a case of 'caveat emptor'.

I know that this exists in business all over, and I think it's wrong. But, I don't think your examples are the best. The hairdresser cutting the hair too short is usually due to lack of skill. The doctor's fees are posted up front and it's better that he refers you rather than trying to treat you for something he's unqualified for (A partial refund would be nice.) The thing is, the doctor doesn't say... Oh, just give me some money and I'll make you all better. Everyone knows that doctors practice medicine :)

A better example would be fast food ads, where they show big juicy looking burgers in the ads (and on the menus) but the reality is always lacking.



Also, when men are horny, their "expectations" can sometimes be quite distorted. The receptionist says the girl is tall, blonde and busty, and you start picturing yourself having sex with Pamela Anderson. When you open the door and it's not Pammy, or she doesn't give you the porn-star type sex you imagined, etc, you are disappointed. Not saying that's ALWAYS the case of course - but it certainly happens pretty frequently.

I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to requesting a petite asian woman, being promised that. But, when I open the door, A it's a 5'6" 200# bleached blonde white trash skank. Or the situation where there is one girl in a photo, and a different one shows up.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
I'm sorry Skinless, DJ, and everyone else who disagrees with Joe's definition of 'choice' - but I agree with him. Freedom of choice also means having the freedom to make the WRONG decisions. A young girl who is kidnapped, beaten, pumped full of drugs and then forced to have sex against her will, wouldn't be viewed by many as working by 'choice'. But what if a girl has CHOSEN to use drugs and then CHOSEN to support her habit with prostitution? What if she CHOOSES to work for a big ugly violent pimp, because she feels safer having him around? I can't say I like the scenario - and it's not one I would choose myself - but it IS her choice to make.

I completely agree with this. I was trying to make this post earlier, but I think yours was more concise.

The drug thing is definitely something where there is a huge difference between what is forced on a girl and what she chooses to get hooked on herself. There's enough education about drugs in the world today that ignorance isn't a feasible excuse.

[PurpleNGold]

originally posted by the virgin terr
i have just one more point to make re. the letourneau case, and then i'll cede this discussion to the other threads taking place. jz, if i was vili i'd be mad as hell at the system also, and i'd be willing to make any cynical attempt to make it pay for what it had done to somebody i cared about. to try to make it pay as it had made mary pay for the "crime" of acquiescing to my seduction of her.

okay. this is going a bit far. vt, you got your information from a usa sensationalist piece of shit program that was pro mary k.

think about it. a 12 year old boy has trouble seducing a 12 year old girl. you're trying to say that you believe this kid really managed to seduce a 35 year old woman? dude, get real.

and, you said you couldn't tell the difference between a 25 year old and an **** girl? you'd better hope i'm not sitting the jury when you come up for molestation because i'll be pushing for lifelong imprisonment with 'bubba' and 'tank' as your cell mates.

[The Virgin Terr]

rn, for what it's worth i respect you more than most people, and i particularly respect u for your activist work. i'm sorry if i came across differently, and i hope you'll continue to respond to my questions, because i have some for u now.

i was reading another wh*re's website earlier (i hope my use of the term 'wh*re doesn't offend u, i don't mean it to be taken that way, it's just a convenient, short word), some journal entries, one in particular that piqued my curiosity. it was from a time when she wasn't working, and she lamented it by saying how her sex drive is down (including a comment to the effect 'the more sex i have, the more i want it'), and what she missed the most actually wasn't the sex or money, but the good feeling she got from making her customers happy. so i'm curious: i know all women are different, but on the other hand, women as a group are different sexually from men, particularly in their capacity for sex. my question to you is: under optimum conditions, say, your as happy and stress free as you can imagine, under these conditions, how often would u prefer to have sex, like how many times in a week? i may have asked b4, but i don't remember. also, here's another question: say you have no one you're emotionally involved with, but have several paying regulars and one or two guys who you occasionally have sex with for free because they're very attractive. now let's say you're fairly horny, and not particularly in need of money at the moment (although of course you can always use it for a rainy day), and you have a choice between having sex with one of your regulars who is a decent lover and pays the going rate, or having it with the hot guy who doesn't pay, but you can't have both. which one would you choose?

as for any further discussion of **** consensual sex, i'm out of here. trying to discuss that topic here is like trying to argue in favor of prostitution at a site where everyone is absolutely closed minded against it. it's a waste of time.

[Skinless]

Joe_Zop: "I'm hardly saying everyone has or uses choice, simply that it is my personal belief on how things should work. And that's true even on the bad side of the tracks -- perhaps even more so, because if you're beaten before you begin then being empowered to make your own choices can be the only thing that gives your life validity and hope".
Joe: should = bs. If you are beatend before you begin, you are beaten. Game over. Also, as this is not a polite debating society, go read the American boards again. See how they refer to crack hos. No blushing mermaids there.

RN: "RN: Heroin equals no choice. If you know nothing about that, count yourself very lucky."

Just for the record - I may have never used drugs myself, but I deal with heroin addiction every day in my work. I admit my opinions on heroin use are not based on personal experience, but they ARE based on the experiences related to me by heroin addicted street-based sex workers. This is not a valid line of argument because it uses uncheckable experiences as a crutch. .
There is no debate on this. Once heroin comes into the picture, talk of choice and the rest is pure and utter bs. The same reasoning applies in caste societies like Thailand. These women know they are beaten before they begin. This should be an exchange of views and an enlightening process for all.

DJ: I always talk sense. Oftehn here, I have been writing bs tosee what the response is. This is not bs and I intervened to stop dangerous bs. Now let me get ready for my fun at the weekend. Mother and daughter like me because I am a gentleman, a kinky and totally fucked up and irredeemable one, but a gentleman nonetheless. Thre is no debate on that either. Just another of life's realities. Oh lucky me:)

[Joe Zop]

If you're beaten before you began, then choice or no choice is completely irrelevant for anything other than your own sensibility. If you're fucked, you're fucked, and if you think somehow having a great scenario of societal control is somehow going to filter down to positively affect these same women, you're even more full of it than you say I am. Trickle down social policy based on telling people how they ought to live just means more annoying piss raining from above. It changes nothing for those who are fucked from the get-go other than tell them again how bad they are.

And arguing should is what a theoretical discussion is all about. That's true no matter what side of the argument you're on.

Skinless, I'm well aware of what kind of debating society this is -- doesn't mean I have to play the game the same way. It doesn't take any effort for me to write "sex worker" as opposed to "crack ho" and I've clearly not been scared off the AW forum or anywhere else because the are some big bad nasties there.

Finally, again, I've never said I was in favor of hard drugs being made available to people -- that's a complete straw man argument, and a way of avoiding the actual issue that was being discussed, which was around a woman's right to choose to have a pimp. My one obtuse drug reference in that regard was referring to pot. Since everyone here is outing themselves on this issue, I should probably do the same and say that when I was younger I took pretty much anything put in front of me that didn't have a needle attached, with the exception of LSD, as I'm not a fan of chromosone damage. That included coke, opium, uppers/downers, etc. Thankfully, I was out of the scene before crack came along, or I'd have probably done that as well. I'm not at all saying it was smart, or that I recommend it because I most certainly do not, but it was the times and I did what I did. I've done nothing other than the very rare toke at a party for well over twenty years, and am now considered by most of my friends to be hopelessly straight in that regard. I would hardly set myself up as an example for how things ought to be done -- there are a number of people I hung with who simply aren't alive anymore because of their choices in this matter, or whose bodies are around but whose minds and souls are not. My hometown (Flint) is synonymous with drugs, senseless and terrible crime (remember the second-grader who shot his classmate, among others) and despair, and I grew up in the middle of it, and spent a long time there. So I'm not just talking out of my ass about things I don't know about -- I know far more about this than I wish I did, and no one has to convince me about societal drug effects -- my childhood neighborhood is now for the most part a long row of crack houses (at least the ones that haven't been torched or torn down.)

And btw, Skinless, I've read a reasonable amount of things on the connection between drugs and crime, and one thing that police say over and over again is that people who are criminals as drug addicts were generally criminals before they were drug addicts.

[Skinless]

Joe: I jumped in here, maybe unwisely for 2 reasons: the flaming (and now am I being flamed?)and the liberal bs about choice. Do we agree kids who grow up in crack houses etc, glue sniffers in Korat etc, have no choice? They are fucked before they begin. That is what some of the world's toughest cops have told me. Heroin creates its own dynamics and the dragon must be fed. They are great kids, considering the mountains of shit they have to contend with before they are even born. However, they have no hope.
I am not really interested in theoretical arguments of should and pimp and prostitute in an idealized environment. The only "pimp" scenaro I referred to was the down and out one of places like Korat where different dynamics, feral dyna,mcs if you will, apply.

I never said you said hard drugs should be available. I thought we were one on that. And as for prostitutes having pimps, what of it? No interest of mine, though the organized pimping one sees here in Tokyo of SE Asians is more evidence of exploiting those who cannot make choice. The yakuza take their passports off them and the Iranians handle them on the street. Pretty woman.

[Joe Zop]

Skinless, I'm definitely not trying to flame you. And of course there are people who have no choice -- that wasn't the point of the discussion. The issue of choice is about whether or not people should be given the opportunity to exercise it, not whether they are in circumstances to make that possible. This came from a discussion of pimping laws and how they affect sex workers options and relationships.

As far as the whole pimp thing -- earlier in this thread we had a fair amount of go-around about hard-core pimping scenarios, and the place there mostly wasn't consensus was about the precise way such guys should be ritually disembowelled.

And my response on the hard drugs issue was to DJ, who I clearly should just absolutely ignore.

[Skinless]

Definitely my last post here. Good Joe. I am glad we are ok on that. Lots of people talk about the wrong side of the tracks and they know Jack Shit about it. I exclude you or anyone else from that.
It could be argued that this board, certain threads in particular, are run by a few people just reinforcing their own beliefs, something like how Nambla operate. The American women board is a case in point. Many women are looking for love and good ol' J Skinless has been the provider on many a happy occasion. With a look at some of the people here (Prokofiev and some others excluded) it is easy street.
Now, go ahead and be nice to each other. Lean on each other, be nice to each other, give each other big hugs and kisses. Coz I can't be coming back in here again. And please remember it can be a nasty world out there. Count your blessings and be grateful you ain't in the other guy's shoes. Peace, love, unity, acid, heavy metal forever. Well not heavy metal but u get de picture. NOw time to go back and annoy Freeler. Bye. And thanks for the fish.

[Dickhead]

originally posted by the virgin terr

as for any further discussion of **** consensual sex, i'm out of here. trying to discuss that topic here is like trying to argue in favor of prostitution at a site where everyone is absolutely closed minded against it. it's a waste of time.

"short eyes" is another convenient short term. i hope it offends you and you get the fuck off the board before jackson bans you.

[Skinless]

Joe Zop: If people say you are dogmatic and rigid, you should take that as a huge complement. Some things are plainly wrong, other things are plainly very wrong and if anything you have ever been told along the way lets you hold to that, be thankful.
We all hear of the devil quoting the bible for his own ends. Taking ML King or fifth rate British philosophers out of contect does not a valid argument make.
The degree of EXTRA exploitation in buying or renting a prostitute for a quick fuck is probably not all that much. The degree of EXTRA exploitation in buying or renting a young girl or boy for a quick fuck is very substantial and everyone should know it. The amount of NAMBLA freethinkers who are doing serious jail time for the most horrendous crimes against young children (murder slicing them up etc) is quite high and rveals more their position than all their sad quotes from alleged pedophiles. They are in a feedback loop where they tell each other it is ok to "fall in love" with young kids. A lot of the attraction to young kids is arrested development. That does not make it irght. It only puts the onus on the predator to grow up and let others grow up. The nicest thing about young teenagers is to watch them being young teenagers. They do not need older selfish fucked up people fucking that up on them by fucking them.

As regards Mary whatever her name is doing the serious time, bad cases make bad laws. She is obviously nuts and is simply one of very very many people given a raw deal. Beyond that she is irrelevant She is certainly irrelevant to the argument as to whether it is progressive, kool or whatever to fuck little kids.

Now I am definitely out of here. I don't want to be seen to endorsing that shit. I might be sick but I sincerely hope I am not that sick.

[Joe Zop]

Well, I'm certainly not going to worry about being labelled dogmatic or apologize for my beliefs on sexual contact between adults and kids.

[The Virgin Terr]

i'm retiring from this discussion.

every one of us has suffered at the least, inconvenience, added expense, and added danger because of the prohibition of prostitution. probably virtually everyone in the world suffers as the result of various types of consensual behaviors that are banned and vilified, and u know what gets me the most about that? that the obvious solution to this problem, tolerance, favoring consensual behavior over coercive behavior in all circumstances, is embraced by VIRTUALLY NO ONE! virtually every one who suffers from some form of repression is in favor of some other form of repression, which is why virtually everyone suffers from repression. nobody gets the simple idea, the simple truth, that IF U WANT TO BE FREE, U MUST WANT OTHERS TO BE FREE AS WELL.

some of the responses to my recent posts as well as ones from quite long ago have been very disturbing to me. i suppose heretics have been tortured and killed through out history when mere intimidation didn't coerce them into conforming to required beliefs and behaviors. torture isn't garden variety violence, it's brazenly sadistic, an indication that the torturer has a need or derives pleasure from inflicting pain. some of the comments made in our discussions indicate that some of u here are that sort of person. the kind of person who would participate in a mob attack against a heretic, perhaps a burning at the stake. i simply won't associate with you. so long.

[Joe Zop]

Sorry you feel that way, VT, and as it happens, I do favor consensual behavior at all times -- for consenting adults. But the truth of the matter is that the particular subject you keep wanting to discuss, seek support for, and get horrified by the lack thereof is one that is expressly and specifically defined by Jackson as out-of-bounds. The fact that you may be, as you define yourself, a visionary with a different vision doesn't automatically make you either persecuted or right. It's ironic to see you reacting to hyperbole in such a way, given that you're highly prone to it as well, as your last post demonstrates...

[Dickhead]

Or to paraphrase, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[PurpleNGold]

VT,

You keep harping that you're a misunderstood, visionary, could-be worldchanger; in actuality your a transparent, myopic would-be pedophile.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe there's a reason that even amongst hardened criminals--rapists, murderers, the current president of the U.S.--pedo's are considered an abhoration? Kids are supposed to be kids. They aren't ready to make adult decisions like whether or not to let some fat fucking slob stick his anywhere near them for lunch money.

I believe in freedom of choice and speech, so I believe that you are entitled to espouse your views. But, I am glad that you find no solace on this board. Maybe there's an underground board that you can find to discuss kiddie shit with your fellow fuckbags. I can only hope that some LE agency is tracking your IP addresses and setting up a big sting to catch you all before you can harm any children.

[Joe Zop]

I've been thinking a bit about the language of prostitution, how charged it can be, and how that distorts the issue. For example, people always talk about a woman "selling herself" but of course that's not at all the case. She's performing a service which happens to involve her body as part of the service. In particular, the underlying presumption is that she has some expertise in the use of her body, and the quality of her services are related to this.

How is this any different from other professions where use of the body is innately involved? We don't speak of physical therapists, dentists, or actors as selling themselves, and their skill in using their bodies are critical to their work equation. The truth is that people give over control of their bodies in work situations all the time -- we consider that employment, not "selling ourselves." At worst, it's "renting."

Naturally, labelling is part of the process of political and moral argument (a la pro-life/pro-choice, family values, etc.) What would be a better political label for this situation, something that might have the same punch as "selling yourself"? Does one currently exist?

[Joe Zop]

Well, I certainly object to being so horribly exploited, over and over again, by powerful sex workers! The damage it's done is close to incalculable :D

The problem I have with the term "sex work" (though I use the term sex workers because it seems the best available -- courtesan is too specific in many ways, even though it's one of the few with a somewhat positive aura) is precisely that it's too neutral -- virtually every other term out there is negative, and I think there needs to be something to balance and counteract that, some kind of two-word encapsulated positive argument. Pro-choice or pro-family are not neutral, they're statements in favor of a position. Sex work really is not -- it's like "urination" as opposed to "taking a whizz" in terms of being simply prosaic.

It's interesting that the power gets shifted to the client, but the blame really doesn't. Men are victims of their hormones, and women (except those few days each month where they are even less like humans than usual) are to blame for letting men sink to their natural depths. Pish tosh.

Your point on "allows" is one I really like. Like we'd say an electronic salesperson "allows" the customer to purchase an overpriced high-def TV or sportscar, when the truth is that to get such a sale, said salesperson might well be willing to engage in some of the precise same acts as a sex worker does...

[Dickhead]

I'm tired of being ruthlessly exploited too but from my point of view the term "sex work" is an oxymoron. Of course it is not my job but whether I am a customer or getting it for "free" (no such thing of course) it doesn't seem like work. Of course my job doesn't seem like work to me either; maybe that's why I like it.

[Dickhead]

JZ, please do not juxtapose car salespersons with sex workers. The latter are dedicated professionals while the former are just plain w h o r e s.

[Joe Zop]

Hah, careful now, being from the cradle of the automobile I might end up feeling compelled to rise to the defense of those fine supporters of the local economy. Um, well, nah.

[Joe Zop]

I understand that, but when you want to rally troops to a cause you normally want to give them some enthusiasm, not put them to sleep :D While I understand the concept of being neutral as an attempt to de-fang a negative image, that's also kind of like trying to stop a flood by walking around with napkins; it doesn't provide a positive counterpoint to speed the process along. (I actually see the term as a kind on PC'ed version of working girl, the latter of which paradoxically has the same kind of neutrality weirdly combined with paternalistic condescension.)

The issue with wh*re is similar to racially charged epithets -- an attempt to take back the language and turn it on its head. It suffers, of course, from the same difficulties seen there -- it becomes a term only appropriate for certain people to use, in certain contexts, which means that while the appropriation is a political act that helps a group define its own identity and context, it's also an act in which the rest of the public cannot participate except either as observers or transgressors.

Consider the difference between "sex worker" and, say, (and I caution this is not a serious suggestion -- just an example, something off the top of my head on my way through the first cup of morning coffee) "sexual relief provider" or maybe even "sex relief worker." Relief has a positive implication pretty much no matter what it's attached to, as it implies some kind of positive outcome. The public understands generically what "relief workers" do and think positively about it. It's still not overly descriptive to the point of ruling out streetwalkers, escorts, etc. Something like that would not only help defang negativity but work in the other direction of providing a more positive outlook on the work and workers.

While I agree that it's important to draw the community of "sex workers" together for political purposes (a sector isn't really a sector with the potential to use its power until it realizes it is) it's also important to invite those outside the community to be positive participants, as otherwise you're just preaching to the converted. The danger for many political movements is in focusing too heavily on their own needs -- that can work in situations of, say, racial discrimination, where there's a clear basic unfairness that most people who pause for a moment can acknowledge, but here you're working against centuries of moral ideology as well as legal precedent.

To put this from a customer or "john's" perspective -- if I go to a physical therapist, it's because I am being physically rehabilitated in some way; it's not neutral, but positive. "Therapy" is another word with basic underlying affirmative implications, like relief. If I'm just someone who a "sex worker" works on, I'm genericized into being an automobile whose oil is being changed, without the positive implication of preventive maintenance being attached.

Again, let me emphasize that I am not dead-set against the term "sex worker" as it's what I use and it's generally better than the alternatives -- I'm just wishing there was something better. There's a big difference between eating the one palatable thing on the local diner menu and being able to order something exceptional!

[Joe Zop]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel normal, but the enemy by and large are not the people who put you on a pedestal but those who see you in the gutter. Those are the folks you need to work against, and being neural or normal isn't good enough to counteract the harm they do. That hatred you describe is where the real work needs to be done, as if you neutralize that you get rid of the opposition to legal and social changes you want to see.

It's natural that groups under fire tend to look first to themselves, but (speaking as a consultant who sometimes works with groups on articulation of mission) that's a method, not a mission. A group that speaks only to its own members can be marvelously supportive and important, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's effective in a public political sphere.

And while "Sex Goddess" clearly is appropriate in your case, I'm not sure that one stretches any further than courtesan to cover all those who need it... :)

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
I have been to the public forums and read the letters to the newspapers - the absolute hatred that some of these people display towards us, can be truly terrifying.

I believe that these same people often indulge in the very acts that they decry. Hell, you may even have a few of the letter writers as your clients and don't know it.

[Joe Zop]

RN (presuming you're still monitoring things) I've got a question for you based on your overall knowledge of the scene. Do you have any idea or statistics on what percentage of women in the game in a given city are from out of town? Given the social stigma and potential for being put into uncomfortable situations it's obviously understandable that someone wouldn't want to be hooking in their hometown, but I'm curious to know if anyone's ever thought about quantifying things. It certainly seems to be the case in a large number of places I've been, with the corollary that oftentimes sex workers seem to be from small towns (not exclusively so by any stretch, of course, any more than everyone being from somewhere else) which leads to all kinds of possible issues about lack of connection to social structures or knowledge of available options as well as the safety of anonymity. I seem to recall that you grew up on a farm, for example, and most of the sex workers in Thailand also come from rural agrarian areas -- which might be seen to parallel how things worked in factory situations, with people moving from country to city for specific jobs or opportunities.

As a side note on the whole familiarity thing, I'm curious -- did someone you know ever come into the place you worked? And if so what was the upshot?

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by joe_zop
As a side note on the whole familiarity thing, I'm curious -- did someone you know ever come into the place you worked? And if so what was the upshot?

Joe, just wondering. Ever have a session with someone you knew? I ask because there's a lady I know who could seriously use extra money, and is fairly promiscuous anyway. I don't want a long term relationship, so I've never participate in what has been offered. I'd like to though, and thought that explicit monetary exchange would make the thing a no strings attached affair. Just don't know how to approach the situation.

[Joe Zop]

I've basically only had two situations where someone I knew previously was involved -- and I more or less avoided the issues of both, to be honest.

The first didn't involve boinking -- it was just a topless place where a friend of my youngest sister's (who I'd also known as a waitress at a favorite watering hole) decided to work. This was a place I'd hung out at for years, so it was probably more my "home turf" to begin with than hers, and I told her who the good people and customers were. It was a bit uncomfortable for us both to start with, and I offered to just find another bar, which she wouldn't hear of, and then we finally both just relaxed about it. The problem was that someone else we both knew found out she was working there, and was, frankly, a complete pig about it, revelling in coming in, demanding she dance for him, basically mauling her and revelling in her discomfort, and then even bringing in other social friends so he could get the same kick in a different way. It was clearly a control thing, very much related to the whole social stigma thing we've discussed here regarding prostitution, and he did it in spite of me conveying how unset it made her (which she and I, and separately he and I talked about.) It was surprising, really, because in most other ways this was a really great guy who I knew very well, but this revealed a really hostile streak which made me look at him differently. (I found out later that his relationship of fifteen years with his live-in partner, who was a radical feminist, was starting to unravel, so part of it was acting out -- not that that made things any fairer or easier for the woman here.) It got to the point, actually, where she complained that I wouldn't have her dance for me though I would most of the other girls, so I mostly said, fine, here's the tip money, just sit and talk. Was just a little too strange, as I couldn't help remembering her as the twelve-year-old friend of my sister. She, on the other hand, got a little return pleasure in playing seduction games and enjoying my discomfort. It was harmless enough, and we both knew it was just play.

The other time was with someone I knew from my general neighborhood who later told me she was escorting, and the offer really wasn't about a strictly sexual/financial relationship, but a true affair with emotional involvement, which I unfortunately didn't think would be healthy for either of us, so I declined. (Not that I didn't seriously think about it -- she was bright, gorgeous and took great pleasure in describing herself as highly oversexed.)

I give the first example simply because dance bars are the closest thing my area has to brothels in terms of quasi-public spaces where quasi-sexual activities take place. Not really the same, but as close as can be to a "surprise" encounter. I've never, say, ordered an escort and had the person show up be someone I know.

In your case, is the woman a working girl or are you thinking that offering money would make it crystal clear what the parameters are? If the latter, how is that not received as an insult, given the stigma that is still attached to prostitution, particularly in the US?

[PurpleNGold]

That's the problem I'm facing.

This lady is just a neighbor with whom I've shared jacuzzi time. She's nice, flirtatious, has a reputation for being more than just a tease, and has made it known to me that she'd be happy to prove her rep to me. But, she's also a bit of a ditzy, dependent type who I'm afraid would cause trouble if the relationship got any deeper than talking in the Jacuzzi.

But, like I said, I know she has some very difficult financial troubles. I'm not into giving away money, and I'd really like to sample what's on offer. But, I just don't know how to broach the subject of pay-for-play without it being a serious insult and/or becoming a scandal.

It'll probably never amount to anything because I just don't think there's a tactful way to go about it. Bummer because she's pretty hot.

[Joe Zop]

I think you said it all right here: "she's also a bit of a ditzy, dependent type" as that's the core of the issue. The money isn't likely to change the latter end of the equation in and of itself, as that can just be another form of dependency. It's not like there's not a long history of men having mistresses and women having sugar daddies, but that's a different level of relationship than pay-for-play since it usually involves some degree of emotional attachment as well. Seems like the only way to proceed is a frank conversation saying, "I think you're hot and would love to tumble with you but I'm absolutely not interested in a relationship or any strings whatsoever" (which, of course, but doesn't guarantee anything in terms of how she's truly going to take things.) If that works for her, and things work for you, then saying, "look, I know you're having trouble, why don't you let me pay for X" becomes the non-insulting way to say I'll give you money as long as we're doing it. That gives you room to backpeddle as having your intentions misunderstood if she takes offense and gives her room not to consider herself as doing it for money.

Of course there are no guarantees about how someone is going to react once things get started if they're a dependent type, but that's true in any relationship.

[Joe Zop]

A fair amount of the US is still pretty traditional and conservative, too, RN, and in the smaller areas there's still the labeling fears as well, though I think the general impact of the media, Hollywood, etc,. has offset things a bit and filled lots of heads with the desire to be the sexy beast. I certainly don't expect that those growing up in these areas are going to act out while there, but I've run into an awful lot of smaller-town women in the big city.

Still, regardless of the city/country split (and given the percentage of people in Oz who live in one of the cities versus the country, I suppose that's not surprising) I'd be curious to know what percentage of women in the trade come from out of town.

The security camera thing sounds like a great idea, very sensible. Do women working there usually have their antennae up keeping an eye out for people they know, or is it a rather minor concern? In the instances where someone sees someone they know and keeps out-of-sight, what find of after-effects are there? Does one say to another, whew, that was close, as that was so-and-so, or do they keep it to themselves? Is there any discussion or curiousity regarding the sexual aspects? The wedding story is something else -- I don't know that I'd be as worried about the wedding as much as vowing I'd never let the best man and groom go out drinking together ever again, as who knows what tales get told when someone is in their cups!

Since you mention him seeing you, how much did/does your ex know about you being in the trade? How does that affect things?

You always talk about Perth as being a small city -- which is ironic considering where you're from -- but isn't the population over a million?

(Sorry for so many questions, but it's been dead in this thread and you're the resident expert, so I figured I might as well...)

[Dickhead]

One time in college a buddy of mine gave me a gal's phone number and said she was available for oral sex (only) at a price. I called her up, we negotiated, and eventually I gave her my address to come over. She said, "Wait a minute. XXX East XX Avenue? Right across from XXXX Park?" I said "Yeah, what's the problem?" She said, "I think I know you. Is this Dickhead?" At the same time, I recognized her voice: "So and So?" She said "oh my God" and hung up. She wasn't in any of my classes but we had the same major and were in the honor society together. I had hosted some functions at my house and she had been there a few times.

The next semester, she WAS in two of my classes and so we talked about it. She said her mother was a prostitute who had dragged her all over the country growing up and that her grandmother (maternal) had been a prostitute as well. She said she was trying to "break the cycle" by being the first one in her family to go to college (high school valedictorian, bright gal, VERY sexy and KNEW IT) but that if she couldn't earn some fast cash she would have had to drop out. I told her I didn't give a rat's ass and hadn't told anyone and she was quite relieved.

So I spent the whole semester trying to get in her pants and never could, but we became good friends. The next semester after that (the semester we both graduated), we didn't have any classes together and she finally gave it up for one long, memorable weekend but then she ran away and hid (metaphorically speaking) for reasons that remain unknown and unclear.

Her mom came to graduation. The mom was actually quite a bit closer to me in age than the daughter (I was an older student). I fucked her for money and so did a few of my friends. I am still in touch with the daughter from time to time and she has indeed "broken the cycle" and etched out a fine career in our mutual profession. I've always wondered if she knows I fucked her mom. Our tenth reunion is next year and if I go and she is there, maybe I'll let it slip out. She is married (I don't intentionally do married gals, EVER) and has gotten quite chubby according to her (haven't actually seen her since graduation) but GOD she was HOT back then.

Also in college I was getting a blow job in a park at night and a bicycle cop snuck up and busted us and it was a rookie cop who had graduated the previous year and knew me because I officiated all the intramural sports. The gal was the most notorious hooker in this small town and was pretty skanky. He let us go but I was pretty embarassed, but only because she was skanky!

This is why I don't like living in a "small town," no matter what its population is.

[Joe Zop]

Of all the professions one expects to see passed down through several generations (doctors, police, etc.) prostitution isn't generally the one you'd think about, but I suppose it makes a great deal of sense that it would be so.

Great story, DH, thanks. How did you approach the mom? Just say, "Your daughter tells me you're in the trade, how much?"

[Dickhead]

The mom was a pretty hard core pro; obvious signs for those who knew what to look for, of whom I was undoubtedly the only one present upon this occasion! She dressed up or down or appropriately or whatever for the ceremony and the banquet afterwards. I approached her towards the end of the banquet after she'd had a few (I was on the wagon at the time) and asked her if she wanted to go out. On the way to the bar I just said something like "What it would it take to get you to sleep with me?" and she countered with a monetary figure.

Then gentleman that I am, I asked her if she wanted to stick around for the weekend and make some more money. She said she did so I hooked her up with a few of my friends who were hard up for pussy. It was damn hard to get laid in that town, hardest place I ever found in my life, which was amazing for a college town. It's not really a "college town" in character, though, an old mining and ranching town and very conservative. Most of the chicks at the college who liked to screw were granolas and they just aren't my type (need to bathe more). I was a BMOC and basically led a double life the two years I was there, honor student by day and low-life bar crawling whoremonger by night. Everyone on campus thought I was real straight even though I was baked all the time.

Sometimes I miss those days, but not often.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
And PNG - in my opinion, "ditzy, dependent types" do not make good hookers. Until you said that she was the dependent type, I would have said take the chance and offer her the cash. But you don't want to have her falling in love with you for either the sex, or for helping her out financially in her time of need.

I think the difference is that a sex worker expects you to pay her for sex, so the money has no 'hidden meaning' when you hand it over. This girl you're talking about, on the other hand, would probably be 'grateful for your kindness' and think that it means more than it does. That can only lead to disaster.

Yeah, this is what I'm thinking (and pretty much what Joe said too). I just keep having this nagging down in the shorts, so I guess I am lucky for self-control. I'm sure, ten years from now, I'll look back and wonder, but for now, I'm gonna let this one lie and save for another trip to Thailand.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Great story, DH, thanks. How did you approach the mom? Just say, "Your daughter tells me you're in the trade, how much?"

That's a great question for a great story. DH, you are the man!

[Dickhead]

PNG writes:

"That's the problem I'm facing. This lady is just a neighbor with whom I've shared jacuzzi time."

And no one thinks to ask the most important question: Is he buying or just renting? If the latter, fuck her and then move if there's any problems. Very simple.

Or better yet, fuck her and then move regardless. Preemptive strike, as Richard Thompson would say.

[PurpleNGold]

Dickhead, you were on a roll last night. This one, and the post in the TJ section got a hearty guffaw out of me.

[Joe Zop]

Gee, Dickhead, I thought you weren't a Bush fan. Your "scorched earth" approach on sexual relationships sounds an awful lot like US foreign policy :D

[Dickhead]

To say that I am not a Bush fan is similar to saying that Hitler was mean to a few Jews.

[Member #6586]

Jesus Dickhead that was quite a profound statment. If you do not mind I have a question(s) for you in the PV, Mex section

Thanks

[PurpleNGold]

Okay. The hot and bothered mission was certainly accomplished.

Beyond that though, a couple of questions came to mind.

* Is this the first time you've paid for a massage in a brothel? Or just the first time that it led to sex?

* Is this also your first time with a woman (other than possibly doing threesomes with clients)?

* Will your new perspective affect the way you approach future sessions with clients?

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
Terribly sorry PNG - didn't mean to get you all hot and bothered. ;)

Hell, if I ever monger in your neck of the woods, this post will be at the forefront of my mind and you've got a client ;) So, you've just drummed up some business ;)



1. This was the first time I've ever paid for a massage, period. I've never even had one done at a beauty parlour, let alone a massage parlour. I really wanted a massage - just to relax me after a long drive to the country and back - and I figured that I would feel more relaxed in a brothel rather than in some brightly lit sports massage place. I had no intentions of it being any more than a massage...although the idea of having sex with her DID cross my mind more than once before I got there!

Wow. What an intro you got then. I wish my first massage wouldv'e turned out that way. My first massage was from an old (and we're not just talking kAMP old here) lady in a massage class: nothing sexual there!


2. I've slept with women before. Most of my experiences have been with women in two-girl sessions in brothels - but I have been with a couple of women outside of work. One of them started as a 'work relationship' and then continued outside of work for a little while.

Did you sleep with women privately before you ever did it professionally? Or was it something you realized was fun because of the professional experiences?

Also, would you consider dating this girl? It seems that there was some serious chemistry between you two, so I was wondering if this might be one of those cases where you could find someone who would understand your past/present work/sex history and yet not hold it against you. And, since it would be a lesbian relationship and your clients are men, maybe the jealousy factor wouldn't be so serious?

That last question brought up another one to my head. Do you ever get female clients?


3. Hmmm not sure about that one. I would probably make sure I always talked to clients about what they could and couldn't do during the booking. For example, asking them to touch me or telling them what I want them to do to me. But I actually already did that as a rule anyway. (I've always been pretty vocal in bed! LOL)

Just to comment, I love it when a girl tells me what she wants in bed. I've never been an egoist about being a great lover, so I figure if the woman takes that initiative, I can relax about having to guess. Of course, there are times, that I'm not really into worrying about her getting off and then I'd have to come up with a tactful way to say, please you're breaking my concentration ;)


I would probably also make a point of mentioning the time out loud to them as the booking started - so they could see for themselves that I haven't shorted them. I was really amazed by how fast the time went for me.

I like this idea a lot. I think I'm gonna try that when I'm in my next encounter--point out the time when the session starts and when it ends. If it's woefully short because I was rushed (as opposed to the girl just being too hot for me to hold myself off) I'll feel justified in complaining and possibly reducing the tip.



I'd like to say that I wouldn't encourage guys to spend more money than they wanted to - but the fact is, it's a business. I was already aware of how clients' hormones affected how much money they spent, but I figure that they are adults - if they regret spending the money later, it's their problem. If *I* had spent more money than I wanted to last night, I would have blamed myself, not the girl. Her job is to earn the dollars - mine is to think with my brain and not the throbbing, wet parts of my anatomy.

I agree with this completely. It's a business transaction, and in business, your goal is to get the best deal you can, right?

Thanks for sharing this story. And, I hope my questions aren't too personal. I've never had the opportunity, nor prompting, to enter into a discussion like this, and figure I might as well ask everything that comes to mind since the chance may never come again.

[Joe Zop]

Thanks for the answers, RN, and great story! A couple of comments (leading to other questions, of course.)

On the "being found out" side of things -- I'd say that guys have the same general fear, though with us it's obviously not as potentially stigmatizing, rather like the social difference between being seen as someone who gets caught using drugs and someone who's a known dealer (and of course I'm talking about the comparison in perception and not making a comparison, other than the potential for addiction, that is, LOL.) It goes to show just how negative the overall perceptions regarding prosititution are -- for guys, I'd say it's seen as putting you into one of two categories: either you're an oversexed animal who can't control himself or you're someone who is obviously a loser woth normal relationships. Who wants either label? (We've discussed the labels for women, and nobody wants them either, naturally.)

Good to hear that your ex wasn't able to use it against you. A couple of follow-ups: Did you tell the brothel why you had to leave? Does that happen often -- that a worker will need to leave for personal reasons, either because of being recognized or of being, say, too personally connected to a place so she can be easily found? Also, I know your relationship with him is a mess anyway, but did this inflame it? You and he still have to deal with the kids -- does this still enter into the equation?

Your story was great. Since we just had a rather extensive (and contentious) discussion on massage in the Thailand and LA sections, let me simply say that as good as this session was, I'd advise you not to rule out serious massage either. They can really do you a world of good in a completely different manner than what you experienced!

Your comments regarding the experience were truly perfect and perceptive; you managed to encapsulate a lot of the client issues in one crystallized list.

The boundaries/what is allowable aspect is an important one, and one that's always at issue for clients. Attitudes (as are demonstrated in comments on this board) can run from the "she's a sperm receptacle, so I can do whatever I want" approach to the "I don't think she likes this, how can I continue" side of things. Knowing boundaries/reading the person is simply far more complex when you're dealing with a person who's professionally able to mask their reactions and feelings. I've ended sessions where I felt clearly that the provider wasn't at all into it or was uncomfortable with being touched in the most basic of ways (I'm talking putting a hand on the back or simple stroking) -- it simply feels too much like rape.

"I was scared that it was all just an act and that I'd look like a fool if I thought she was actually getting turned on." This is always there from a client perspective, and is one of the reasons there have been so many discussions on this board regarding what women are into it and who are not.

The issue of what someone says about you later is always there, of course, on both sides of the equation. I'm curious about this because I think it's perhaps even more an issue for a client, in an odd way -- a provider can be seen to have a bad day or session, but a client doesn't really fall into that same situation of having been, say, overworked on the sex side of things. Obviously, if someone is a regular you note differences on both sides of the equation. How much discussion does go on about clients between providers in terms of both boundaries and approach? Extending that, I'm sure you've had sessions with people who just sorta made your skin crawl with their touch - has anyone like that ever become a regular for you? How did you handle it?

The time issue is always something I bump up against, and that knock at the door is something I find incredibly both frustrating and intimidating. I'll usually either simply pay for longer sessions up front, or will tell the woman I'll tip heavily if we run over. That's probably why in places like Thailand I usually go for overnights. In an hour there's just not enough time to properly be both sexual and sensual, and I've always liked making love more than just fucking. I've had enough sessions in quasi-public settings where I can hear/feel the clock ticking to know that I don't particularly like them. Stating the time up front seems like an excellent way to simply establish the start of the session so it's clear how the length shakes out, but I'd be careful not to go much further, as there's a wonderful dichotomy between getting everything you pay for and feeling time pressure.

In choosing your little brunette cutie (and we could take for granted you'd not choose a blonde on principle :D) I'm taking it that consciously or subconsciously you were hoping sparks would fly. In that, you're exactly like most clients -- who choose someone with whom they hope not only for some degree of fantasy, but in the hope there will be a connection. (And the lack of that connection is probably more pertinent to disappointment than the specifics of the act.) Combine that with the aspect you mention of having someone who is there simply for your pleasure, and it absolutely is addictive, and you can see why many men piss away huge amounts of money.

Finally, regarding your comment that you would love to date this girl -- there's where the line gets clearly drawn between you and "us." Because you kind of know her as a fellow worker, even after having been her client you'd still be able to get rid of that barrier. For a guy to want to get personally involved means a major role transgression and constant uncertainty about motives, not to mention the possibility of morphing (or being seen morphing) into your client from hell who didn't understand the limits of the relationship and what was real and what was not.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
We can come and go as we please. (The only problem being that you lose regulars and eventually you will become 'known' around the traps as being unreliable).

If that happens, do you get barred from the brothel? Do you have scheduled shifts? Or is it more like a freelancer bar type situation?



[i]for example, that he's prone to taking the condom off

Does this happen so often? Are these guys psychos?


we never talked all that much about specifics unless someone...or exceedingly good in bed!

If that happens, is there ever a competition by the girls to snag him as a client next time? Possible discounts?







...And to tell the truth, I recognised her pulling a couple of 'keeping the distance' tricks that I use myself on clients.

Could you maybe list some of these? It'd be interesting to look for them during a session. This could help with the 'was she into it' question that's been brought up.



That said....I, errr, went back there tonight. *blush* I had another amazing 'massage' and a spa. She spoiled me rotten. She also kissed me full on the lips, which kind of spun me out. She kissed me again before we left the room. Then she kissed me goodbye, in front of the other girls! My legs are still like jelly. I think I've been without sex for waaaaay too long!! LOL

You're addicted just like the rest of us :) Just curious, would you ever consider paying a guy for it? I mean, it's not like a sexy woman ever has to pay, but there is something different about pay-for-play that makes it worthwhile even if you don't have to pay. Oh, and just in case the answer is yes, I'm available for travel ;) Seriously, it would be interesting to hear about how your experience with a sex worker of the opposite sex compares with your brunette cutie.

[David]

RN (and others),

I've been lurking here semi-periodically, and your reply to JZ has birthed two questions that just won't stay down ...

1) With regards to someone "making your skin crawl" -- could you (or anyone else) talk about what causes this. (and talk about the reverse -- something like making your skin sigh). Certainly it is a personal goal to improve the quality of my touch. Regardless, I find it a fascinating subject.

2) If you would be comfortable sharing it, what are some, "keeping the distrance tricks"?

*Smiles*,
David

P.S. Hello everyone. It has been quite a while -- I'm glad that the ... WSG Morality/Ameican Women "Community" still thrives.

[Dickhead]

OK, moving it here from the AW section. On the Costa Rica thing, I am not sure if it is specifically legal and I rather doubt it. I think it is just an absence of laws against it. But it is not regulated other than maybe the brothels have to do all the things any other business has to do as far as obeying fire codes and so forth, if they even have those there. But what I mean is that it isn't a situation where it is "legal unless" or "legal until" or "legal if" or anything like that.

You have to realize that Latin America is a whole different world compared to the US, Canada, Oz, Western Europe, etc. You are expected to protect yourself, rather than being protected by things like safety barricades around construction ditches and so forth. If you fall in a ditch, it is your fault for not looking, not the construction company's fault for not putting up bright orange tape. That, of course, has its upside and its downside but I personally prefer it as opposed to passing laws saying I can't ride a bicycle without a helmet (Oz, at least in Melbourne) or I can't ride a motorcycle without a helmet (most of the states in the US, although not the one I live in) or I can't fucking buy booze on Sunday (my state and yes I am running low on beer again; I guess I'm just a slow learner).

I don't see why prostitution "has" to be regulated any more than shoeshine stands "have" to be regulated. Even health cards like they have in the Nevada brothels (terrible, rotten, un-fun places IMO) are total bullshit since they ignore the incubation period and thus perhaps do more harm than good by giving a false sense of security.

Oh, and I don't know how it works from providers' standpoints but one good way for the patron to "keep [emotional] distance" is to be a

Dickhead

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
PNG,

"If that happens, do you get barred from the brothel?"
That depends how you leave. If you storm out in the middle of a shift, or leave without giving them any notice, you probably wouldn't be allowed back for a while. But if you tell them that you are going elsewhere for a while, they will usually take you back later. Brothels can't advertise for staff here - so they will do just about anything to get staff. Even if it means hiring girls who have screwed them around previously.

This is a double edged sword. On one edge, you have the idea that the girls have control like they should. There's no question about the woman's choice in the matter. On the other edge, the client complaining to the house about crappy service would have little effect. I suppose the former is a more important issue though.


"Just curious, would you ever consider paying a guy for it?"
I don't think so. I'm not sure why. I do love men, but I don't think I'd ever pay a man for sex. I guess it's probably more to do with the fact that I've been a worker - if I'm going to have sex with a strange man, I want to be paid for it! If I wanted have sex with a guy, I could put an ad in the paper and earn some dollars. As a general rule, most of my clients have been more than willing to 'spoil me'...I don't think I'd ever need to pay for it.

I was just thinking that it's still different when you are the paying customer. You can negotiate up front for exactly what you want as opposed to having the client calling the shots.

[Joe Zop]

I take it then, RN, that your ex either didn't take the sex worker issue to his parents or that they didn't believe him. It's easy to imagine grandparents getting ansty (or at least curious) about such information.

I know that women change places of business fairly regularly, for a variety of reasons -- the grass looking greener, disagreements with folks, boredom, etc., but that's different that being "forced" to based on real-life intrusions, which is why I was curious. I've seen the same thing happen in the go-go scene, as even though the stigma's not as high, it's still there.

My question on discussion between providers was in response to your comment -- "I can't help but picture her laughing with the other girls about how easy it was to fool me" which made me curious about how often such a thing actually went on. (And no, I'm not sitting here worrying obsessively about this and imagining that sex workers form little deconstruction circles after each session talking me down; I've had enough greetings from workers who are obviously glad to see me on a return to keep my ego strong enough.) Certainly there's got to be some degree of shop talk and, umm, sharing of professional techniques for parting clients with their money, along with the issues of setting boundaries and arning others about people who are problems. Illusion is, after all, a large part of the game.

The skin crawling thing I do find interesting on several levels. First, it really does point to the flip side of the business that guys don't tend to think about all that much -- it's all about how hot the girl is or isn't, and you always hear much more on the "she was obviously attracted to me" perspective as opposed to "she had to put up with my drunken stinky ass and bad breath." Not to mention just pure pheremonic disharmony. I had a couple of discussions on this end of things, including with the woman with whom I spent most of my time in Thailand, who, after we'd been together the first night, positively begged me, if I did nothing else and never wanted to see her again, to please come and buy her out on Friday night (a couple of days hence) because there was a guy who always came in then and picked her whose touch she couldn't stand. She was actually willing to pay me back for whatever costs I incurred, but she had to have someone publicly buy her out to send the message of unavailability to the guy. This happened a couple of weeks in a row. (And I certainly didn't have her pay me back.)

David, good to see you again. The women I've spoken with on the touch issue (as it's also something of concern to me -- I prefer sex to be a partnership experience, and I find having a genuinely responsive partner to be the biggest turnon available -- and the opposite being true as well) have said several things in common about the guys who they couldn't stand -- there was no kindness in them (or in their hands), they tended to devour the woman as if she was a meal and not a participant (the woman I mention above said this guy spent lots of time looking at and touching her body and no time whatsoever looking at or acknowledging her), and there was never any lightness or laughter involved -- everything was either very intense or very dispassionate, but no sense of play was involved.

RN, now take a night off and save your money lest you have regrets in the morning about spending too much of it on something fleeting and not real. If you end up with that you'll really understand what at times can be the client perspective :)

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by joe_zop
including with the woman with whom I spent most of my time in Thailand, who, after we'd been together the first night, positively begged me, if I did nothing else and never wanted to see her again, to please come and buy her out on Friday night (a couple of days hence) because there was a guy who always came in then and picked her whose touch she couldn't stand. She was actually willing to pay me back for whatever costs I incurred, but she had to have someone publicly buy her out to send the message of unavailability to the guy. This happened a couple of weeks in a row. (And I certainly didn't have her pay me back.)


Joe, why didn't she just refuse to go with the guy? The BG's have that right, don't they? RN said she went with the guy for money untill he finally stepped over a line where she no longer found the money worth it. I guess, my point is that this seems like the girl used this as an excuse to get stable BF's from you (she might have gotten them anyway) while avoiding her other customer--without you, she could have said no, but might not have made money that night.

[Dickhead]

In my profession, if I don't like the client I don't take their business, period, even if they pay well. I don't know about some of this stuff. It seems like what is good for the goose should be good for the gander and some of this seems like women trying to play both ends against the middle (what a surprise). Or, maybe I'm just a Dickhead. I always treat SWs with respect and I am a lot of fun and most of the time everything works out great. But if I wanted to get involved with personal problems and baggage and bail women out of things they had previously gotten themselves involved with, to me that would defeat the whole purpose of mongering. Might as well get married and get it over with.

So I don't see why RN would keep doing a guy who gave her the creeps and I don't see why JZ would bar fine some gal who might not be who he had in mind to bar fine just to keep her from having to deal with some other guy with whom she had problems. I agree with PNG (a fairly rare occurrence); just tell the guy to get lost.

And, if that is not feasible then the situation is one of indentured servitude and the entire venue should be boycotted. Perhaps this is why I prefer to deal with completely independent SWs instead of the club/brothel scene, and that in turn is perhaps why Argentina and Costa Rica are my favorite mongering destinations. No third parties involved, just do you want to fuck me and for how long and how much and what will be permitted?

Granted every SW is in it for the $ and I am in it for the pussy but if I really thought they were so desperate they couldn't turn me down if they wanted to, I would walk away. I am a monger, not an eleemosynary organization.

[Joe Zop]

Well, PNG, of course she could refuse him, but she said he paid quite well (substantially more than I did, as my rate was lower by the given night but consistently there night by night) and she was absolutely in the scene for the money. No missionary zeal, no sense of higher purpose or the societal context that we sometimes see from RN, just need the money so here's what I have to put up with to get it. Given that she was pretty uncomfortable with the whole game in any event, this was just one more thing to put up with, I think, just higher on the discomfort scale. She also worked at a place where there was a great deal of pressure put on the women to generate barfines, as the mamasan was far more worried about keeping the guys happy than the girls, since that's where the money came from. Yes, she could refuse the guy, but she'd be fined for it. There's absolutely no question that part of the reason she liked being with me was that it was just one person where she knew what would happen.

Dickhead, I fully intended to barfine her anyway, so there was nothing at all charitable about it, as she was exactly what I had in mind -- that's why I spent close to two months with her. But she didn't know that at the time, after a first night spent together.

And there was certainly no reason to need to go back specifically on Friday nights after the first one to be barfined publicly in front of the guy (especially when I'd been taking her every night in any event, and often went several days without going in and paying) unless it was to make it obvious specifically to him she was taken. She pretty well hated the place, since they did little but screw her over monetarily and emotionally. But Friday was the one day we had to make it to the bar for a couple of weeks to put on this show until I just finally convinced her I could just tip the mamasan to tell the guy. By this point it was pretty obvious to everyone that she was not available in any event.

I fully agree with your take on thing regarding provider choice, DH, which is why I avoid anything where I get a whiff of indenture or lack of choice, and also call things off if I at all get the sense that someone's going with me reluctantly. But I don't really see a lot of difference between the SW and club scenes in that regard. Sure, a SW can turn someone down -- but it's the same equation of give up the money or not.

My take on mongering is a bit different than yours, DH, in that in situations such as the one to which I'm referring I want companionship as much as I want boinking. This woman was smart as pretty much anyone I've ever met, and working on her mind constantly (while also being astonishingly sexy.) And while I'm all for the thrill of the hunt and the bee visiting many flowers, and certainly have done that and still do, I also find that the most satisfying sex comes from people who know each other's likes, dislikes, and bodies, and hooking up with someone regularly means that can happen, even if it means getting the personal side of things. The marriage framework doesn't bother me in the same way it appears to with most guys here, since I prefer it. I like having a woman around, period, and it orients and informs how I walk through the day. (The contentious points she and I had we about the amount of time spent together, and when those occurred, not the sex.) In this case, for example, I was heavily involved in her personal life -- met her brother and cousins, helped her move to a new place, etc. -- but it was always very clear that this was at core a client-customer relationship, and that as of X date I was simply gone.

[Skinless]

Dickhead: Hard to disagree with you when you say you are a dickhead.
Joe_Zop: I see you have learned some new big words. You never gave me that C Mai contact, not that it really matters. That's life, you hit a town, meet a girl, hear her sad tale, bang her, move on. I see where she was coming from with the Friday/Saturday nite special. There are some women even won't let me fuck them (takes all yupes, huh?). After we do our tour of duty, it is nice to sit down and figure who we should have banged more and who we should have banged less. Maybe the ladies do the same. I guess they are like us: some of them are human, and some of them are..................

[Joe Zop]

Well, Skinless, sorry about not giving you her contact info, but I'm simply respecting her wishes -- she didn't want to be identified as being in the game, chose the bar specifically because she could stay hidden inside and no one would identify her as a bar girl, etc. (I don't share or really understand the "she's just a wh*re, who cares what she wants" mentality I've seen in some places that says if she was fool enough to give you her picture, name, etc., then it's fine to broadcast it everywhere.) Going out with her was always an adventure, even to eat, as she took great pains to have us go places where her school friends would not come across her. Before I headed out she had left the bar and had a job working for a travel agency while still juggling going to school. Whether the job's still happening or not, or whether it was the typical TG cover story I've no idea, but I hope it's true as she's a very nice person with solid plans and dreams, and was certainly working hard at college. If it was all a scam it was a far more elaborate one than with most, and I doubt it as bright as she was I never got the sense she was that good an actress. Most things were pretty evident on her surface.

Either way, whatever, as I had the time I had regardless. And as Whitman said and as I strive toward, "The poet judges not as a judge judges but as the sun falling around a helpless thing."

[Skinless]

Thank you Joe. I see where she is coming and I am very confident your choice in women is much better than your choice in poets. I am sure many ladies have such tales and I really love them for it. Beats paid sex, which is kinda boring most of the time. BTW, the sun can be very ruthless as many a fairy story can attest. Not me though. I am a little angel of mercy and light to all the ladies of the night.

[Joe Zop]

As it happens, she told me they WERE all begging for the gossip - but she said she told them it was just a massage and it was none of their business.

Ah, the perils of being someone who is well-known in a place, period, and another example of Perth's small-town situation. Now that they all know her ability to keep the gossip will be both more tested and more worth it. :) But your "what I don't know" attitude matches mine -- got enough trouble controlling myself so I sure don't need to worry about controlling someone else.

But pampered and spoiled is not necessarily mutually exclusive from groaning and pounding, since passion's got lots of different forms, as you well know. Dessert is usually a different taste from the main course, but it's still in the meal. And sometimes it is the meal...

It's an interesting tension, isn't it, RN, between the need to be acknowledged as a person and the general need to keep the specifics obscured or distant? True on both the provider and client side of things.

Your comments on consecutive nights as a continuation is exactly why I prefer spending longer time with someone, preferably days. Glad you had the interlude, and it sounds as though you really needed it. Being pampered and paid attention to is certainly one big attraction to the whole scene for men, and I don't think there's an overstock of people in the world who get too much pampering. Too far from it.

Skinless, I was certainly not putting you into the "judge" category, as it's pretty clear that's not you. I agree with you about the stories; they're part of what helps make the woman I'm with more an individual as opposed to simply a body. Who cares if a lot of the stories are much the same? Like that's different from most people -- there have been debates for years among writers and critics about how many core stories or plots there are, with Kipling giving the high water mark at 69, and most other folks saying less than a dozen. Heck, the body is pretty standard in terms of expected parts, but there are still massive variations. So it's never the big picture and always the details that make the difference, and every person's details are different.

And Whitman's someone I read mostly because his approach is fairly alien to me, and because I can acknowledge his importance, but he's far from a major personal favorite. But I like the quote -- recall that he's a northern clime guy, so his version of strong sun is the one that manages after a few months to melt the piles of snow as opposed to the one that beats down unrelentingly :D

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by RN The need to "protect the community from prostitution" is too great apparently.


Dear Citizenry:

If you do not suppport prostitution, do not patronize one. If you are against homosexuality, don't be one. If you think marijuana is harmful, don't smoke it. If you don't like pickles I guess don't eat them but then you'll need to figure out what to do with all those cucumbers ....

Respectfully,

Richard A. Head, Esq.

[Skinless]

Joe_Z: good reply on the sun, so you win there.
Here in Japan, we have many hosts clubs. This is where young studs cater to the needs of female clients. These places makes serious money, much more than any mere brothel, catering to men. Over 60% of the clientele are prostitutes: the trick is to get them drinking (that is where the big bucks are), to pamper them (the key to everything) and NOT to fuck them as that spoils the aura and will stop the cash fl/cow.

[Joe Zop]

There are a bunch of those clubs, aren't there? I remember reading a Time mag article about them a couple of years ago that said the clientele was divided -- sex workers later but office workers early. I don't know of equivalents elsewhere -- do you (or anyone else?) Makes you wonder what it is about Japanese culture particularly that makes them so popular -- maybe it's that Japanese men, out of all those in the world, do the absolute least amount of chores in the home -- a quarter of that of American men and and an eighth that of Swedish men. American women do a bit more than twice as much, where Japanese women do more than seven times as much as their male counterparts. Sounds like grounds for a good pampering to me! :D

[Joe Zop]

RN, I think the "This is what I have to do to get that in my life?" feeling is a pretty core one -- who wouldn't prefer that such an experience be the norm as opposed to the exception, and an exception you have to purchase at that? I think that sense is the core of much of the anger you see on this board at times, which is mostly profound regret at not having that connection all the time -- the great promise sold to us in literature, TV, movies, etc. It's tough to get enough of having physical closeness and having positive attention lavished on us.

If someone ever distills and bottles something that gives the feeling of that afterglow, it will be the most addictive drug ever to hit the street. I'll be first in line.

This also explains how guys get obsessed with providers, and how the urge to change the client/provider relationship into something else can be so strong.

[Joe Zop]

Well, RN, perhaps your response here needs to be considered against your statement that you don't really see yourself getting involved with someone. Your recent experience and reaction to it obviously demonstrates desire for the good side of the relationship equation -- though I know you've had your fill of the bad side. Who doesn't need to be loved?

In terms of clients falling for you -- well, honestly, that's part of what you're selling, right? That enjoyment and caring just happens to have a clock and meter attached to it, and that's the part clients try to do away with, not understanding that it's integrally connected to the responses they want.

As far as the whole "women getting laid thing" I still think it's true that an attractive woman has far less trouble getting laid than an attractive man, if she decides that's specifically what she wants. All it takes are the two things that many (most?) men have in abundance -- low standards and a willingness to expose oneself to large portions of potential trouble. :) Your chances at walking up to someone and getting the desired response from simply saying, "I'm unbelieveable horny, come with me now and do something about it" are still simply much higher than mine. Now, if you want sanity and safety attached to the equation, that's an entirely different story... :D

[Dickhead]

Allow me to weigh in with two observations:

1). If RN is going to be a successful mongerette, she needs to become much more of a Dickhead.

2). This story gives me the impression that RN may not be bisexual but rather gay, since I haven't heard her express this type of feelings about any guy. But then again, she says it's been a long time since she's been with a guy in a non-professional capacity so it could be a coincidence.

Now regarding

"and you think about how wonderful it was to have someone to hold you, and it makes you realise how little affection you actually get in your life...

...do you start feeling really sad and lonely and pathetic???"

that is more similar to what I feel before I go mongering. Afterwards I feel like having a few beers and watching some baseball.

So now you have the viewpoints of both the board's incurable romantic (JZ) and its incorrigible

Dickhead

[David]

RN, JZ,

Thank you for your replies. This idea of a balancing act between intimacy and anonymity does sound … fundamental.

RN,

About your experience. Hmm. Strange as it may seem for me to say, I am quite sure I would feel the same (at least at this stage in my life). This is a large part of the reason it never happened.

A profound feeling. (Both the glow and the regret…)

I would never dare to try Joe's drug. Far too dangerous. In some sense it is ok to be helplessly addicted to people, but to a drug?!?! *Smiles*.

David

P.S. RN, I've sent you an e-mail at angie_sweet...

[Joe Zop]

Ah, David, but in this case the drug might be far safer! :D

[David]

:) *Laughs*. Probably ... but it would seem easy to lose your humanity.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
...do you start feeling really sad and lonely and pathetic???

This depends on the type of session.

If I feel the urge to splooge and go out and shoot my rocks in a wham-bam session with a good, but all-business provider, then I feel satisfied afterwards--without thought to the lonelieness issue. It's like, okay, physical need taken care of, back to life.

However, after the extended, week-long session with a bg in Thailand, I did feel the loneliness acutely. Coming back to America, I definitely felt the absence of a connection with someone.

But, I've adopted a healthy outlook when it comes to confusing great sex with real connection: The great sex ends when the reality of the relationship intrudes.

[Joe Zop]

I suspect you're exactly right about risking the chance with her -- it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle and go away from customer/provider. If there's truly the possibility of anything being there, you probably need to wait to see if she comes to you, as opposed to go back to her. In many ways this echoes some of the "if only we'd met under different circumstances" regrets many of us have when finding someone where we sense a greater connection. Because the relationship has already been established as a monetary one it's best to just say, oh well, and move on. Rather like meeting the woman/man of your dreams and discovering they've already met and married theirs.

I've always thought the concept of a "spare" was a wonderful but mostly unworkable one, as it's pretty hard to ensure that both people have and keep the same level of desire for emotional involvement/disinvolvement. I've had a couple of offers in that direction and always shied away because it seems like great potential for pain for one or the other person.

By the way, RN, aren't you changing your song here? Seems to me that you've identified yourself as bisexual here before. If nothing else, especially after waxing rhapsodic here over your recent attraction/experience, such a denial sounds at least a wee bit disingenuous! :)

And I'm sorry, but unless you're going to go borrow some fluids, you're just not gonna manage to treat working women as "sperm buckets" or some such other lovely terminology as Z*lda was prone to using. I say this as someone who agrees with him that the "see her one time and never again" approach is definitely the emotionally safest one, though not agreeing it's necessarily the best. Depends on what you want. (For what it's worth, his perspective seems to me to be precisely the one so reviled by feminists who talk about prostitution as "male masturbation using female bodies" a characterization which I've always thought contained simultaneously both a germ of truth and a far greater misunderstanding of male sexuality.)

DH, now that David's posting again I think I've got some competition for that "romanticist" mantle, and I'd argue that in any event Skinless may truthfully deserve it more than I do, his hinterlands "Heart of Sexual Darkness" tours notwithstanding. He's the one who started waxing ecstatically about mermaids, (though I did definitely join in) and who keeps in touch with the life of a provider he's not seen in a year or two. (All this noted with nothing but affection, Skinless!) He's confessed to loving the hopelessness of it all, whereas I may be obsessed with and talk too much about it, but I don't love the tragedy. I see it more as a perfect little petri dish of primal human desire and foolishness, my own included. Regardless, clearly no one can at all challenge your exaulted station! :D

[Skinless]

"a perfect little petri dish of primal human desire and foolishness, my own included"

Mr Zop, you are full of shit. The wife is away right now and I have a young lodger/bed mate who is crazy about me but is into the most bizarre sex games. I feel sorry for her and hope she does not have a nervous breakdown or screw me over in a big way.
This is what we do when the orgy is over.
And the mermaid thing is still there. In my more pensive moments, I think of those women I screwed, putting the jelly on them, pumping away and both of us miles away. L'amour. I think not.

[Joe Zop]

Where did I say l'amour? I most pointedly did not -- I said desire. The romantic notion is always irrevocably tied to the tragic, and to the hopelessness of getting sustained happiness, and that's precisely what the tableau you describe lays out.

[Skinless]

Dear Mr Zop: I did not mean to suggest that you were using the language of Mr Bush's latest enemy. Rather, I was making a somewhat cynical comment on ladies I bonked in Bangkok. It is all a game. Linking you to merde was more a comment on your flowery language than your sentiments (I have to understand your language before I can understand what you mean). Anyway, I am busy right now with work and mistresses so go in peace. I meant no harm.

As regards Ms RN' predicament, the simplet thing would be to ask the lad if she wanted an affair. These ladies have, after all, heard it all before. Who knows what might come of it? So, goodbye for some time yet. The bedroom calls.

[Skinless]

But it worked out well for you. Maybe she needs love as well. Why complicate things? Meet her and see where it goes. Geez.

[Skinless]

But it worked out well for you. Maybe she needs love as well. Why complicate things? Meet her and see where it goes. Geez.

[Joe Zop]

Congrats, RN, looks like you get to be the exception to the rule! Best of luck. But of course your worry that "I had allowed myself to fall victim to my ego, like so many other clients do, and dared to think that she enjoyed my company as much as I did hers" is a pretty common punter concern, and one of the difficulties therein is that mongers aren't going to have your advantage of knowing someone in advance -- especially with those video cameras giving sex workers the heads up! :) So perceptions must be called into question from the beginning, simply because you start out inside a human video game. My approach is pretty much to always and continually assume it's my ego, since I can more easily count on that to be overactive than I can my judgement.

Ok, how about "pansexual" instead? That has a less clinical feel to it, and might be closer. I'm certainly not objecting to greedy (though, umm, I'd say greedy and needy LOL) but simply brought it up because you outright denied to Dickhead that you were bisexual.

Having actually met the man behind Z*elda, I would doubt very much that he at all treats badly the women he sees. He plays a game adopting the personas of video game characters, and though he certainly believes the perspectives he promotes in terms of the best way to approach things, he also posts with a massive amount of hyperbole, and knows it. He's a nice guy, really, and I look forward to having a drink with him whenever I make it back to Thailand.

I obviously don't agree with that feminist perspective; I was simply noting that the rhetoric and fantasy reinforces it. To play devil's advocate, though, feminists would say that you, transexuals, etc., are simply adopting the traditional male role in order to try to achieve the male power position (I've been in enough discussions/arguments with feminists on a variety of things to have the rhetoric down pat.) Yes, you might be applauded for that transgressive act, all the while being criticized for supporting a situation which exploits women. My question is usually where the limits would actually be -- is all sex involving men then basically male masturbation? Some feminists would say yes, pretty much the same ones who argue that male/female sex is all and only about power and that the penis is by definition violation. At that point I generally know we've lapsed into foolishness and look out my window and watch the squirrels and robins engaging in male masturbatory reinforcement of their dominant societal positions.

Skinless, I'm sorry to have "flowered you out" but I actually thought I was being pretty accurate. Let me deconstruct it a bit. I can look at RN's concerns about understanding what was and was not real on a level of basic human worry about the viability of emotional perceptions, of men pursuing sex workers as representing one of many searches for an outlet for sexual desire, of Z*elda's Cassandra-like warnings to men to beware the sirens as a song about the difficulty of sorting out the attractive illusions of love when one is wrapped up with sexual urges, of prostitution as the struggle to survive while "selling yourself" as fitting into the same epic context of selling oneself that most people face one way or another. (Sartre would see being a prostitute and being a waiter as the same thing.) In a lot of ways prostitution is the perfect human laboratory study situation in that it's an endlessly repeatable scenario with room for both archetype and individual variance. Put two people in and see what grows, and whatever it is, it's human. As I said before, there are only so many basic plots or stories and most things are a riff on one or another, so understanding both the commonality and the differences contextualizes what we're seeing. Whether we characterize that as men using women as sperm buckets, or masturbation using someone else's body, or an endless search for closeness or love, or whatever, is as much about the perspective we happen to bring to the table as it is about the experience itself.

Maybe that's all me "romanticizing" or "flowering" things, but from my perspective it's just that I tend to see metaphor and archetype in just about everything, all day long. And, RN, you're probably right about your characterization of me -- when we see the worst or best of things, we only have so many options: basically, deny, reject, or embrace. I tend to use the latter, then apply a kind of buddhist perspective and try to celebrate best and worst as being much the same thing. Like anybody else, it's just the struggle to figure out how the fuck I got thrown where I am and what to do about it.

[Joe Zop]

Don't worry, I took it completely as a compliment, even if it made me feel a bit, ummm, wizened. But as Franklin Jones said, "Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again."

[Joe Zop]

Ah, spoken as one oceans away... :D

[PosterLion]

the flowers riot in the
field and
struggle to find their sun
as the butterflies land
on what they are
looking for



maybe that's a little too flowery. :)

[PosterLion]

that's what i
saw passing by
my window
on the
way
to
the
whorehouse

[Joe Zop]

Of course you can feel insecure, particularly in a context where there's no established emotional connection where flaws are buffed out or conveniently overlooked. Given that most sex workers are on the younger side, their body flaws, if any, are likely not to have come from aging, so the contrast can be difficult to overlook. Especially in a commercial sex situation, you can't help but expect there's going to be comparing going on.

On the other hand, I always felt insecure when I was younger in different ways -- performance anxiety, nervousness, etc. Now that I'm "wizened" I know more where I stand in the spectrum of things, know that I look how I look, that even if everything is an absolute disaster both she and I will recover from it, that I'm neither the best nor worst-looking person who's likely to have come through the door. I also know that women don't put the same degree of stock in the physical as men, (though of course it's still an issue) because they're not as visually oriented in terms of sexuality, so that my personality and actions will have an opportunity to affect the situation regardless of my looks. In the monger case, it frankly doesn't matter as much because in the same way it's mostly irrelevant whether or not the sex worker means a damn thing she says to you (outside of what is permissable) it's also irrelevant as to whether or not she truly finds you attractive. Sounds cold, but it's true. If she's willing to go with you then she's already made a decision that her level of revulsion isn't higher than the desire for the money that's being exchanged.

Thankfully, some degree of desire or lust usually manages to overcome the various rattlings of the brain.

Might have also been that you were female -- but I think it's more that you already had an attraction here and therefore worried if it was mutual.

[PosterLion]

so sweet the flower

overwhelmed by unapproachable beauty
butterflies dance in belladonna
a deadly nightshade of flowering torment
with imprisoning powers of delicious romance

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by joe_zop
you outright denied to Dickhead that you were bisexual.


A woman lied to me! A sex worker lied to me! Oh, the horror. Oh, the deep rooted psychological damage that could happen...

if I weren't a

Dickhead

[Member #1465]

Originally posted by RN
Actually, speaking of 'wizened' men - here's another rather personal client question for all of you.

If you are perhaps of advancing years, or have thinning hair or are a little on the portly side, or just aren't all that confident in your appearance - how do you feel standing naked in front of an 18 year old supermodel-type sex worker?

I know I felt really quite insecure. This girl was younger than me, prettier than me, bustier than me, etc, and I felt waaaay out of my depth being naked beside her. Does that sort of thing ever enter into your minds? Or is it perhaps that I am female, and as such, I was probably just 'comparing' myself to her?

Just some comments on this one.
I'm as you say "wizened" and have grey hair (still all of it is around) and have a bit to much beer so my figure is not what it used to be. Do I feel anything strange standing naked in front of an 18 year old. Yes of course I do. First of all 18 year olds are a bit to young for me but lets say 22 instead. But what it comes down to is that we both normally know why we are doing this. She because she wants or needs some money and me because I want or need some sex. Of course in some countries that I prefer I love the GFE experience and then I always wished that I was younger and nicer but I think the same is true there. They know what they want or need and I know what I want.

[Paddy]

Hi RN,

Being an older guy, I was rather intrigued with your latest comments. While I don't "look" old other than my grey hair, I've found essentially the same things that you mentioned - despite the emphasis on a youthful appearance here in America.

Since I've turned grey, women now come up to me and start conversations right out of the blue. I'm truly amazed. I've even had women come up to me at bars to talk to me, ask me to dance, etc., and they are often quite young. Here in America this is not standard protocol. At first, I had no idea what they wanted or what they were talking about. Again, I'm truly amazed. I've never been much of a "ladies man" and never did this well in my youth it seems (actually I never really tried). So, I would have to concur with your observations.

I also asked the lady who cuts my hair if I should dye it or something. She's quite beautiful, has been around and I really trust her opinions. She reacted with "horror" at my suggestion and was very emphatic that I should leave it grey and that many women like "the look." She said that it shows maturity, that you've made most of your mistakes in life already, etc. She said that the thing which must be avoided, at all costs, is weight or a beer belly. She said that having a gut is an instant turn-off to women and will negate almost all of a guys other qualities. Is this also true of women from Oz???

So, I guess that one need not fear the later years and in some ways it gets better.

Paddy

PS I got a real charge out of your metaphor of being "...covered with chocolate and being thrown to the lesbians." I assume that you were speaking "metaphorically" of course (Wink!).

[Joe Zop]

Well, thanks for the older men reassurance. I'd certainly agree with you on the technique side of thing, in any event. I'm curious -- what kind of age breakdown would you estimate for clients? Is there a difference in terms of generosity or sexual requests by age? (Just thinking that older men probably have higher established incomes, but also are more likely to have higher financial responsibilities, and that sexual preferences could either widen or become more established with age.)

To take another crack at your query, though, of course all those questions are something that go through your mind, but they have different levels of strength depending on the person and the situation. I mean, face it, you as a provider are more than likely simply going to have a greater base number of partners to compare to than any given punter, and we know that. So, yeah, there's always kind of the "measure up" issue floating around. A fair portion of male braggadacio is always a cover for insecurity -- and that degree of insecurity is almost always there below the surface when you're with someone new, whether in a pay-for-play situation or not. And as someone in their forties I'm obviously aware that I don't represent the general sexual ideal for a twenty-something-year-old, given that I'm more likely to present a picture of her father.

The difference is that for guys, unlike women, such thoughts can head straight down to the equipment and get in the way of things operating properly, so we do our best not to dwell on them lest we become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The guy that's annoying you by staring only at your tits and ass as opposed to your face may well be doing so to not only inflate his ego but the rest of him, and he looks there rather than imagine he sees disappointment in your eyes.

So, ok, me -- I don't worry about the hair because I shaved it all off years and years ago absolutely as soon as I noticed there was a small amount of follicle migration, and have frankly no idea how much of it might be left if I were to regrow it (probably not much, so I don't feel the need to find out); I don't worry about the weight because while there's a little bit too much of it I'm not ridiculously out of proportion for my age, plus I'm tall and reasonably broad-shouldered and large-framed so it tends to get hidden more than with some other folks. No point in worrying about the fact that my cock doesn't reach to the moon, because I'm trying to bed someone on this planet and by now I've gotten used to working with what I have. Honestly, I tend to just try to keep all that noise out of my head entirely and focus on my partner in the equation and the experience at hand. I've had plenty of "bad sex" that comes either from me or the provider, and I've survived it, so I know that if this experience is destined to be another example of that, well, we'll both live through it again. If I'm going to be insecure about things -- and like anyone else, there naturally are plenty of times when I am -- I try to keep that for after the session, when I'm away on my own, where there's ample opportunity to beat myself up endlessly and creatively without the ticking of the session clock.

In my case you're certainly correct that the choice is more often one of personality than looks -- as has been noted on this board frequently, being with the most gorgeous person available can often mean a poor session. I'd much rather be with someone who gives the feeling that they're happy to have me there, and eager to participate.

[Member #1465]

RN thanks for the welcome.
Regarding your comment of fear of not measuring up. That has so far not been anything I've been thinking about. I of course understand that she has had more other men then I have had girls so for that reason I understand that I am maybe compared and its no way in hell I would be superior in any aspects to the ones she have had before. But thats not why I'm there either. I have nothing to proove. I just want to have a good time and my way of thinking is that if I'm nice to the girl then there is a chance that I will get a better time. And as said in a previous post its more then the sex for me its rather perfect if I get a bit of the GFE feeling and I do get that rather often. Maybe its as you and Paddy said. Many "younger" girls like the grey hair.
Regarding the sex as I'm a bit older I know what is good sex for me and its not 47 different ways its just a couple of different ways and those ways are the ways I aim for. But most of all its the time leading up to that is what I appreciate afterwords.

[James D 2004]

Regarding what I said in the BKK board about young girls sold to brothels in Thailand. I watched PBS channel this week about Thailand. My statement is still very true. But you may not see much in BKK on the surface.

First is the Burmese. They are happy anyone to take their daughters away when they are old enough, often free, to work in Thailand. Better then abused by the military in their own country. Then the hill tribes, who don't have Thai ID's. The chance that girls got sold to brothels is 1 in 10, could be as young as 10.

Many Chinese, among other foreigners, come to Thai, in the 3 country border areas, for the brothels. Deflowering is provided. Almost all girls are from Burma (old name).

The fully grown hot woman you see now could be the young little girl who came out to work some 10 years ago supporting their whole family.

I'm not really talking about morality here. I'm just explaining myself that whenever I had a good time and left. I can't help feeling sorry about the girls, who are preparing for the long haul in BKK.

[Dickhead]

Do you believe everything you see on TV?

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by Dickhead
Do you believe everything you see on TV?
No, but PBS is a non-profit channel. That's a documentary. The content includes Thai social workers and politicians doing their jobs. Interview including Burma foreign minister (something like that), defending his country, which is black listed by USA for human trafficking. Except for Americans, who are well known for their foreign affairs ability, most people in the world knows how bad things are in countries like Burma. The documentary gives you the details.

[Joe Zop]

And thanks, RN, for the breakdown. Very interesting and insightful, as always. What are the characteristics of the 25-35 bracket?

[Dickhead]

So you believe everything you see on TV documentaries. Great. And, most people don't know jack shit about Burma, which by the way hasn't been called Burma for many, many years (which sort of proves my point).

[Joe Zop]

what i said in the bkk section was to your comment about women sold was this, "there's just not all that much of that in thailand and hasn't been for quite some time, and in any event most of the women we farangs are going to end up meeting in los are not brothel girls." i most definitely stand by that. yes, there is still trafficking going on, yes the burmese and hill tribes are involved (though both also have women who choose freely to be involved) but in thailand it is dramatically reduced from the levels it used to be, certainly far, far less than you'll find in, say, cambodia or india, and the thai authorities have been taking active steps to reduce it further in most instances. those efforts are complicated by the fact that there's tons of corruption in the governement and police, but it's still made a difference. the un, who have looked at this issue in the past couple of years, say that in contrast to former levels where perhaps ten percent of women who were recruited into prostitution were sold into it, it's now well under one percent.

i've posted elsewhere about the forced-service brothels i know of in chiang mai, which are chiefly staffed by indentured burmese women, and the difficult politics of shutting those down. there is an entire sex scene in thailand that is exclusively aimed at thai men, and westerners generally will not at all come in contact with it. (in fact, that scene provides the leading cause of aids infections in thailand -- which is thai wives being infected by husbands who frequent them.) this isn't about denial, it's about conveying an accurate picture and understanding of the context and reality of the situation, and simply watching a pbs program's not going to do that -- especially (since i presume you're referring to "sacrifice," the pov program by helen bruno) something that premiered five years ago and was completed before that. ever hear of reruns? guess what -- lucy's dead, too.

your statements are like saying that aids is rampant in thailand -- that's based on old information.

the truth is that women going into the sex trade in thailand is a very complex scenario which combines family and social pressures as well as the allure of materialism and the big city. there's an interesting book by penny van esterik (which i read the last time i was in thailand) called "materializing thailand" that discusses the role gender plays in constructing the thai identity, how important appearances are in the culture, and the lengths people go to maintain them. humans also make the decision to traffic themselves, and that's the majority of what goes on in thailand -- there's innate family pressure on the youngest female child of age to take care of the family, and the sex trade is one of the places that happens. while some of that ends up being ****, there's less of it than there used to be, as there's less of the forced nature.

there are reports that the japanese mafia uses thailand as a hub for trafficking women, but those women both come to and are diverted to other countries, generally north. thailand is used because there are established conduits for migrant workers, with those workers usually coming from burma and laos.

and, btw, there's child prostitution in the us, as well, you know.

[Joe Zop]

(Point taken on Burma, DH, though many continue to use it rather than recognize the legitimacy of the Myanmar junta, who are the ones to have changed the name.)

[Dickhead]

Most of the women in Myanmar/Burma are just looking for a Mandalay anyway :)

Interestingly, my Mapquest wall map (copyright 1999) calls it Myanmar and then has Burma in parentheses, while my Replogle globe of the same approximate vintage calls it Burma and has Myanmar in parentheses.

[Joe Zop]

Well, I think it was the British who first called it Burma, with Myanmar being the historical (and internal) name, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. All I know is that people from there call it both -- I had regular conversations about the country with a group of Akha women who helped staff one my favorite traditional massage parlors in Chiang Mai, and they all went back and forth on the name, despite half of them being born there. Also helped me learn a great deal about the situation of non-nationals in Thailand, among other things.

[James D 2004]

I've been trying to do some profiling but didn't find suitable audience. Profiling by age is generalization, unless for a narrower social and geographic group. On the other hand, for prolific members like Dickhead, a profile is easy.

He has time at hand. Therefore his job is not very challenging at the time. By his choice of words, I would put him in the 25 to 30 category. However, since he appeared to be pissed-off by many things, he could be a lot older. That stopped him from being more mellowed.

Born here or not, he seemed to have the very common american attitude. "most people don't know jack shit about Burma" proves the point. Either he is right (but not outside of america). Even if he's wrong, at least he himself don't know shit about Burma. His one-liners show that his is incapable of intellectual debate, or that his is trying to hide his shortcomings. I was careful to point out that Burma is the old name and his is still trying to score point on that. I use that name because I learned that in high school. That name is easy to spell. I have some time at hand but I should do more proper work, I don't look up every reference I can before I give out my opinions.

He is single. On a sliding scale, he is using prostitutes to get off regularly, more than paying for quality dates that he otherwise cannot get for free.

Don't be offended. You won't be surprised that many members share the same profile.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
Coat me in chocolate sauce and throw me to the lesbians, I'm queer as fuck. Everyone happy now?? ;)

Is this something lesbians are particularly fond of? ;)



I just wondered if deep down, beneath the "I'm paying for sex, what does it matter" attitude, there was ever maybe a feeling of self consciousness or fear of not measuring up. As a working girl I often felt it - but then, we are more "on show" than clients are, and are often picked solely on our looks. And if you know that the last person your client saw was a total babe, you can't help but wonder what he's thinking about you in comparison. I thought that perhaps the same things went through YOUR minds...am I as well-hung/good-looking/talented in bed/young/etc as the last guy she saw. I guess that depends on what you are looking for in the booking though - as Oskar said, it would probably be different depending on whether you wanted an all weekend GFE, or a quick bang against a wall.

Sorry that I haven't had the time to participate in this discussion properly, an odd non-pay-for-play relationship is taking up the free time. But, I'll throw my $.02 into the mix as I have opportunity.

As for being self conscious about the way I look when I'm with a sex worker, not at all. I know I'm not with her for any reason other than my money. And, so I just don't give my looks a thought. About the only thing I would worry about was if I looked so horrid that I didn't get a good session. I suppose that could happen if I were the elephant man, but I'm positive I don't look that bad. I do worry about my breath, body odor and such that could cause her to feel uncomfortable to be close. That could spoil the session.

As for judging the girl for her appearance vs. personality, I definitely will not choose a girl that I find unattractive regardless whether she's got a good personality. I will choose a girl that I find less attractive than another if personality is an obvious benefit. When I was with my TG, I often saw girls that were more my type physically, but, apart from a momentary thought of "how could I slip away," I never seriously thought of ditching her because she was so much fun to be with.

[James D 2004]

Joe

Don't know if the documentary is 5 years old or not. But believe me things can only get worse because of the Asian financial crisis several years ago. From another angle, dictatorship and corruption are very hard to get rid of. Again things can only get worse. 5 years is a very short time to get anything done. Success story is few, Iraqi is one. HK is another where they set up a totally independent anti-corruption department, all people are on contract with no hope of any govt and company employing them after their contract ends. All have the right to go to UK so they don't need to stay and face the music if their department failed. They have to fight corruption even after the Chinese took over because otherwise their department have to close anyway. China is another. Corruption is so big that too much money is lost from the country. They use the death penalty to scare big offenders.

Joe you sounded like a retired person or early retired person living alone. But I don't want to start another profile. That's all for today.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by tallnhandsome
Regarding what I said in the BKK board about young girls sold to brothels in Thailand. I watched PBS channel this week about Thailand. My statement is still very true. But you may not see much in BKK on the surface.

First is the Burmese. They are happy anyone to take their daughters away when they are old enough, often free, to work in Thailand. Better then abused by the military in their own country. Then the hill tribes, who don't have Thai ID's. The chance that girls got sold to brothels is 1 in 10, could be as young as 10.

Many Chinese, among other foreigners, come to Thai, in the 3 country border areas, for the brothels. Deflowering is provided. Almost all girls are from Burma (old name).

The fully grown hot woman you see now could be the young little girl who came out to work some 10 years ago supporting their whole family.

I'm not really talking about morality here. I'm just explaining myself that whenever I had a good time and left. I can't help feeling sorry about the girls, who are preparing for the long haul in BKK.

So where do you point out that Burma is the old name? Hint: you don't.

Edited to add that I must be blind because he does point it out in {brackets}. Ooops. Sorry.

[James D 2004]

Dickhead, can you SEE the bracket in your quote?

Burma (old name)

Used to it since even maps do that in case that people don't recognize the name.

[PurpleNGold]

For those of you thinking about attempting to engage in a conversation with Tall and Handsome, realize that there's no point. If you take notice of his other posts, you will see that, even when he's been shown to be completely off base, he's ended conversations with things like 'I'm obviously right, and since no one can diffute me..."

Also, if you look back at some of the older (couple months ago) stuff on the LA board, the question was raised about him being possible LE when he started offering payment for info. Given his complete lack of knowledge on reality, this may be a valid assumption. I'd say, that his postings concerning Thailand are similar to what's happening on the Pnom Pen thread: just an attempt to dissuade people from partaking.

The 'profiling,' though laughable in it's simplistic ignorance, is just another pointer to his being LE and just trying to gain some false credibility.

Anyway, as I was recently reminded on the LA board regarding this fool, "Don't feed the trolls."

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by tallnhandsome
Dickhead, can you SEE the bracket in your quote?

Burma (old name)

Used to it since even maps do that in case that people don't recognize the name.

Ha ha. Sorry, I read right over that. Must be the intellectual impairment you spoke of. I stand corrected.

[James D 2004]

P&G

My dear fellow member, I can't resist to do a quick profile for you. You sound young. One possibility is that you are earning your way through college. So you have limited spare money to spend in LA, with trips to TJ and BKK etc, and limited to those destinations. Along the line you may be graduated and have a job that paid along the lines as an English major.

Young is a state of mind. You actively seek keyboard fights for example in TJ, LA and god knows how many others. Student or not you have plenty of time. You even drop by to forums where you've never been to the place, say hello and make comments. One occupation I can thing of is a dead end system admin, looking after the computers when nothing ever happened, or someone asked you to give him back his file on his local disk when he reformatted the whole thing. Or perhaps a federal job?

For your sex life, you are never popular with girls, at least the sort of girls you fancy. The free dates you get are limited to getting off from each other. For the other times you go to LA for a quickie, TJ for weekends, and far east for vacation.

Again no offense, how many members do not have that profile in some part of their life sometimes?

[Joe Zop]

Hah, well, TNH, it's good to see that your profiling is pretty much as accurate as everything else you post, both in the case of DH and myself. (I'm fairly sure that's also true in the case of P&G based on what he's posted.) And as usual, you're so far off it's laughable.

This is not to mention your clear ignorance of the financial realities and situation in Thailand, which has had a very successful recovery from the Asian crisis (which is, again, a number of years ago) and, since the election of Thaksin in 2001, a higher level of GDP growth than the US. You are also clearly ignorant both about the kinds of corruption found in Thailand and the reactions of the Thais to it. Spend a few months reading Thai papers and talking to people in the country, why don't you, before you make such pronouncements?

As far as reaction to your profiling, well, it's pretty much impossible to be offended by an idiot who thinks he's a genius, (the worst one gets is annoyed or fatigued) so I will simply note that all this stuff is waaaaay off the topic of this thread.

P&G -- I know plenty of people in Law Enforcement, having grown up the son of a cop, and they're not all bozos like this. Few would be so inept.

[James D 2004]

joe

It's clear that my posts are based on facts and then my personal opinion, who's isn't? If you twisted that up, nobody can help you. The Asian financial crisis is the fact that I know. Since nobody is doing well (except China) in the region, your "recovery" is a point of view only. Those countries stabilizes but growth rate and general state of economy is far from that before the crisis. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan are all in the dogs with USA follows (look at DOW!) You can guest how bad the tourist industry has been.

What are you complaining about my profiling? I only said that you sound like a retired person or early retired person. Now I doubt that. You consistently try to throw people out by digging out facts, which shows that you doesn't process the knowledge and maturity that comes with age. See what you dug up? You named the current prime minister or president. Who cares. Thai GDP is better than USA. So what? Even in the best of times, the asian tigers are growing faster than the developed world. Europe always have a higher unemployment rate than the far east. Read Thai newspapers? Are you Thai?

Anyway, just happened this time I was prepared before I posted the last one. In the PBS website, if you find the articles about AIDS in Thailand, you can see that AIDS is still a big problem there, as opposed to what you said below. They are doing well to control it before the crisis, but running short of money to keep the programs going. That is a 2002 article.

You claim that you are old. And you seemed to have the most time at hand. That's what I based on to guess that you are somewhat retired. If not, then you could be something like a system admin, or a dead end federal job at you prime age 35-55. I still haven't attempted to do a profile for you yet.

[Joe Zop]

Again, I'll repeat that this is all off topic here, and this will be my last post on the subject -- I'm not here to debate your personal attributes or mine or or anyone else's; it's not the purpose of this board or this section, and I'll note that this particular section had a very good on-topic discussion going on before your ego ballooned in and hijacked it. I look forward to us getting back to it.

There are facts and there are facts, and it's far from clear that your posts are based on them. Using old facts and information and making big statements using them isn't saying much at all. Opinions, yes, I definitely see those in what you post. Experience? In-depth knowledge? Sorry, that I don't see. The best arguments come from a combination of all these, with facts and experience informing opinion.

I could care less about you doing a profile on me, since you very clearly don't know much about anything, and your perceptions of what is "true" are even less sharp. Anyone who argues as you astonishingly just did that actually injecting accurate information into an argument shows an inability to process maturely is truly too big a buffoon for words. I've never "claimed I was old" and in fact have posted my age range very specifically, which shows how poorly you read and process information. As I recall, you can't manage to properly see what's on a website you check out in any event -- did you ever go back and see the word "feet" on the site where you claimed it didn't exist? Did you check out the photos you asked me to point you toward demonstrating Ayurvedic massage using the feet?

Perhaps, while you're at it, you should look up a definition for the word "rampant" which is the precise word I used in saying it was inaccurate for describing AIDS in Thailand -- I never said it wasn't a problem, as of course it is not only there but most places, particularly in Asia. And in fact, the transmission process I described in an earlier reply (Thai wives getting it from husbands who were infected several years ago) came from the World Health Organization's December 2002 report, which called for new programs and an expansion of existing ones. As it happens, I was given a pre-release version of that report by an AIDS worker I had dinner with a number of times while I was in northern Thailand. (He works with monks and monasteries there on how to educate their "flocks.") Tell me, how long have you personally been involved in AIDS information? I've been at it for over eighteen years, some in professional aspects, some not. Oh, that's right, you watch PBS -- guess that kind of works like the Holiday Inn Express commercials where someone is able to do brain surgery because they were smart enough to stay there.

I happen to like to read widely about some of the many things in which I have interest, such as Thailand and health, and do so in many, many other contexts than simply matching wits with people on this board. You truly flatter yourself overmuch if you think it's in reaction to you, though any half-way competent person can do net research and read up fairly quickly on any subject they please fairly simply. (This doesn't mean they can necessarily figure out what's important or pertinent.)

And, no, I'm not Thai, but unlike you I've spent more than an overnight at the airport in Thailand, and have travelled around the country a fair bit and, yes, I do read Thai newspapers on a very regular basis, along with some from India, Trinidad, Kenya, and other places I've visited and like to keep up with. I have also spent time studying with a Thai tutor (and can speak Thai to some small extent) and reading Thai history and literature so I understand at the very least more than the basics of the language and culture. I don't just need to watch TV and check out the PBS website -- I can manage to actually make it through a book, though magazines and papers, as well as do my own research both in libraries and on the net. I also, gasp, have the experience of actually being in a place, talking to people, and using my eyes.

I'll let Dickhead respond to you about how far off your profiling on him happens to be. Your perceptions of me (living alone, and, hmm, a second whack at federal jobs or sysadmins, for both me and PNG - tell me, Dr. Freud, where's his hostility coming from?) are beyond laughable. All this says far more about you than us.

And now you're definitely back to being boring again, and are not nearly so interesting to contemplate as RN and chocolate in any event. Click! Channel changed.

[James D 2004]

Joe

I think profile of members using prostitutes are not too far topic. Since you are interested in it also.

Since you are one of those using the 'todays active topic' function of the forum, the worst that I can thing of is that you have no job. The best I can think of is jobs like system admin or federal job that isn't challenging all the time but with stable salary. So you have plenty of time at hand. Get the point?

If you are not that old as you claimed, I would have guessed you are a student. And before your last post, I would guessed that you are a University of Mich, Ann Arbor student from Thailand. But since you claim that you are not Thai, but can speak Thai, that throws me off. You would not be that interested in Buddhism. Another reason is that you are crazy about Thai girls when you were young, and started the Thai language thing. For a non-Thai to study Thai, that's beyond my ability to give you a good reason.

It sounds strange, but one can thing of that you major in Thai studies and back pack all over Thailand. You are very much unlike P&G and DH that are based in LA and travels to many places where cheaper pussies are.

If you are a student it explains that you can live off cheaply all over Thailand, being single and all that. So you don't need much salary. You may be even based in Thailand now, with only memories of a short stay in Ann Arbor.

English doesn't seem to be your mother tongue, and that's why you take the time and are proud of writing proper English, even in WSG! But don't you know how much English majors are being paid?

You are sort of different and doesn't fit in that much in your social life. You try to find soul-mates in the net.

Your upbringing or you learned to be careful not to make mistakes - as reflected in your grammars and emphasis of facts. That is old style and often doesn't give you competitive edge. My advice is to learn to take reasonable risk. And there are machines that enable you to make thousands of mistakes per sec. Make them all in an hour and you won't make them ever again.

You are those sort of students who don't know what to do given an open book test! The facts are all there but you don't know what to do with that.

[Dickhead]

I will not feed the trolls.

I will not feed the trolls.

I will not feed the trolls.

But Joe, will you please work on your writing skills, you illiterate son of a gun, you? Where did you learn English, anyway? And, I will try to overcome my intellectual shortcomings here in Los Angeles, despite all the snow we're having here.

[Dickhead]

Vell ms RN I am knew two this bored but I profile you as a stuck up wealthy European businesswoman who hass no social life and spends most of her time hanging around in elite coffee shops. You are probably in your 50s or 60s and have a boring unsatisfying government job. You probably learned to speak your ridiculously poor English in Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia. But strangely you spend a lot of time backpacking through The Seychelles in a futile attempt to master the French language. You are a Libra. You are married for the third time but have a boring and unsatisfying sex life due to a local shortage of chocolate sauce. You aar careful about you grammar because you are insecure about your height. It is evdent from your rwiting that you ar very short and are probably Oreiental.

[Dickhead]

Voulez-vous couchez avec moi c'est soir?

[Dickhead]

PS RN I notice you are now capitalizing "God." Does that mean christ has actually risen this past easter or do we need to pile more rocks in front of the cave?

[Joe Zop]

ROTFLOL! DH, I promise not too feed him any more -- I've just been having too much fun, and I promise to stop. (Now I have to do a little extra work tomorrow, as I've gotta confess, I've been avoiding finishing something just because I've spent much of the day laughing... why couldn't I have been blessed with someone like this being around when I was a teenager and really needed it?)

Ah, the wonders of the internet -- if only I could lose other things as easily as I've apparently lost years, education, any sense of self, nationality, social structure, my stupid high-risk nature, etc. TNH reminds me of a guy I used to give 500-to-1 odds to when playing chess for money until I simply felt too bad for ripping him off. He is definitely beyond hilarious. DH, while you're visiting LA, would you please pick me up a porn star or two? It's been a while since I've had one. Hope this request doesn't overly tax that non-intellectual brain of yours...

Trabajaré en mi inglés.
Ich arbeite auf meinem Englisch.
Je travaillerai à mon anglais.
Eu trabalharei em meu inglês.

And RN, you 300lb Ohio trucker you, don't you start with me...

But, hmm, your comments on the 25-35 age group are extremely interesting. I find the whole "dating group" thing intriguing, since essentially you're saying it was easier to imagine yourself seeing these guys in the "real world" and thus it intruded more into your process. (Interesting that this is the group you forgot! :o) This implies that there are times when the sex worker barrier is far more permeable. It's also quite remarkable to read your description of these guys versus those on the next rung of the age level, which sort of says when these guys get near 35 they disappear and are replaced by brothel freaks :)

Does this say that sex workers who come in contact with clients in their dating range have a different reaction? If so, is there any fallout from this i.e. are sex workers more likely to get involved/lose perspective with that kind of guy? Is this you, or is this a general thing, in your opinion? Or has this whole recent thread simply knocked you off-kilter from too much amusement?

And it's hansum man, not big boy, you wannabe Thai tart, and you know I'm not looking for short time!

[James D 2004]

Lavorerò al mio inglese

I left item one out for joe. Now he seemed to know at least 5 languages. In that case I got myself down for 6, that's italian. Get real, you student.

[James D 2004]

RN (is that for registered nurse? I like to do real RN's back in England, they take money to supplement their income),

You may not have thought of it, but you would wonder why you never did. Language have evolved in Feudalism times to make sure peasants stand out from the nobles. All the rules and exceptions make sure that you have to start education early and spend your whole life around it, which commoners can't afford. Even if you over throw the king and become one, you just don't look like one and won't be accepted by the rest of the world. You send your daughter to marry some prince but no one wants it. It's a way to ensure the blue bloodline continues.

This is very much against the American spirit. I have no problem with anyone's attitude about any form of English. The only advantage is that it's simple (some say primitive) enough. It would be a nightmare to write a scientific paper in French or Latin. Is the chair your siting on a male or female? Don't make me laugh.

[James D 2004]

Joe, now you stopped writing something you don't know about, like a pre-school level understanding of GDP. Good for you and don't try to hide behind something else.

[Joe Zop]

I said I wouldn't feed the troll, and I won't, though it's damned tempting with these imbecilic pronouncements about English from a person whose postings are rife with second-grade errors. Sigh.


RN, there's an interesting book online I imagine you're familiar with called "Working Girls" by Roberta Perkins at the Australian Institute of Criminology's site (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/) that I've been working my way though at odd times. It's more than a decade old, but it's generally not something that's dated. The bibliography in and of itself is one of the more absolutely wonderful and complete I've seen. One thing I found pertinent to the discussion we've been having here regarding clients was a description of a book by Martha Stein called "Lovers, Friends, Slaves ...: The Nine Male Sexual Types, Their Psycho-Sexual Transactions With Call Girls." (No real excerpts from that book I've been able to track down online other than what's here.) Based on interviews with sex workers, Stein breaks clients down into nine different "types" as follows:

The Opportunists: treat prostitutes purely as sexual repositories, establish no relationship with any of the women, and have minimal contact with them.

The Fraternisers: visit prostitutes in pairs or groups. Their visits are mainly male social affairs involving women only as peripheral companions.

The Promoters: seek personal satisfaction and peer prestige by encouraging other men to visit prostitutes they know. In return they expect emotional support from the women and a kind of non-sexual relationship with them.

The Adventurers: are mostly young men seeking sexual experimentation. They require a kind of therapeutic relationship with the women during their sexual explorations.

The Lovers: seek romantic attachments with prostitutes. They are usually older men who wish to rescue the women from a life of crime and corruption.

The Friends: are usually married, middle-aged and seek to have prostitutes as companions or second wives supplying sex on demand.

The Guardians: are usually the oldest "type". They see themselves as protectors of young prostitutes, perceived as "child-women".

The Juveniles: can be of any age but usually single. They prefer older prostitutes for the opposite reason to the "Guardians" seeking the younger ones. They want mother-figures.

The Slaves: wish to be dominated by prostitutes and seek humiliation in order to express homosexual, infantile, transvestite or exhibitionist fantasies.

Would this match up with your sense of things? -- in many ways it seems to from what you've posted so far. (And for what it's worth, I'd probably would place myself squarely in the "Friends" category, though I imagine like most guys I overlap into other areas as well.)

And to take it further -- what categories would you use to describe sex workers themselves?

[James D 2004]

Joe, you equate English, as most native speakers know of, to the level of education etc. Even many germans speak perfect english, they don't assume that equation if that's not one's mother tongue. The japanese are so bad at english that they won't get their papers accepted by english journals so they have to start their own, and many americans have to hire translators in order to read them.

My style of english is a bit extreme when I choose to. In some parts of the world, we have to learn English speed reading at high school. There's Indian Guru's in everything, and when they get their hands on it, they are not happy if you cannot read a page at a glance and pick up the important details. I'm far from that but fast enough not to able to proof read my writings, as I already know what I tried to say. Many english novelists are not helping, when for example, I saw one who didn't use punctuations for a few pages, no grammars, none, to reflect the brains inner workings. Many have incomplete sentences and arguable sentence structures. My english teacher was a bit ahead of time when she stopped teaching grammars about the same time as the english schools stopped.

If you find my writings a bit unusual, think of capturing a brain storm with time sparing for a long lunch. I can generate some more normal english when I need to, but I get by very well without doing that very often.

Joe, I must say that here you goes again. English has a lot less words than most other languages. True or not it's not the difficulty of the words you use that counts, it's how you use the words. "It's not the size that counts, but how you use your equipment". Did you find my whatever pronouncement of english a bit original? In comparison, you just read a book, copy a list, and explain the list as in the book, and try to discuss it? You get 0 marks for an open book assignment.

I regret a little bit to get too much involved. Anyway I didn't started it. RN is probably working in some bordello towns outside of cities like Perth! That would be something like Wichita in Nebraska of USA (plus some oil rigs). RN, you seemed to find your match. Ann Arbor is somewhat like the outback where Californians don't know a thing about. Joe didn't spend more time in some US boards and RN didn't spend more time in some Australia boards must have your reasons. Now that I know what I'm getting into, I'm pulling out, unless I have to insert myself again.

One last thought, joe, your mention of english made me think of the independence war, when the english complains that the yankees fights with no rules, no formations, no discipline like a soldier, no brillant charges, no clever tactics, just get at you, and wear you down. If they started with one soldier more than you, they probably win with one body standing.

[James D 2004]

Forget one important point. Many languages have no tense. I do and I did is a bit subtle to read. The other languages make do by I do yesterday and I do already. That said something about tense, it's rather redundant, not necessary at least. It's just bad coupling to software languages. Not only that, I find that you can read some languages much faster than the others. Joe, do you know that the royal Thai court has their special language not the same as ordinary Thai's? See my point below?

[Joe Zop]

I will not feed the trolls.

I will not feed the trolls.

I will not feed the trolls.

But, sigh, c'mon -- one estimate of the number of words in the Engish language is over 800,000. That is so massively more than almost every other it's not funny. French, for example, has less than 100,000, and Thai (both common tongue and formal) less than 40,000. Another brilliant unsupportable statement, as usual. (And speaking French and writing in Latin was how English royalty excluded commoners, btw, not making English more obscure.) I'm not bothering to deconstruct the rest of your babble -- I'm not on this board to talk about your ravings, but the topic at hand, to which you have added nothing whatsoever.

You're withdrawing? Fabulous.

[Dickhead]

Wichita is in Kansas, not in Nebraska. Spanish has the greatest number of words of any language. Prostitution is perfectly moral. Let's get back on the subject and not let one or two jerk offs spoil our discussions. Tallandimpotent is probably Virgin Terry's long lost twin.

[James D 2004]

English words - noted that I have added the phrase "true or not". That means that is not central to my arguments. If you pick on that, it means you want arguments on the sideline, hitting my wing deployments without ever hoping to defeat my army.

Depends on how you count as words. The reason for saying that is because English is rather primitive that most Europeans would agree (outside of England). In english there are three levels of beauty, or everything else for that matter, while in French there are much more levels of everything. So if you compare apple to apple, there are more French words.

In english, if you encounter something new, you have to make up a new word for it. While in many other languages, you use combinations of existing words. That is a bad thing that the number of english words are getting out of hand. If you count that way english has a lot more words, but that's like comparing the number of alphabets to the number of words, not at all fair.

Another important factor contributing to the number of english words is the technical scientific and medical words. Since the same terms are used in other languages, and that the terms are counted as english, the number of english words are naturally more. I can't and won't try to verify your facts. But if you just accept the number of words from some reference without critical thinking, you are missing the point.

Wichita and Nebraska are used in USA, in movies and advertisement, for some middle of nowhere places that most people don't know anything about, like Burma. That's my point and I don't apologize for mixing them up.

[Prokofiev]

Dick . . .

English is far more robust and descriptive than Spanish. More words. Spanish has more only if you count all the conjugations of each verb . . . since each verb has at least 40 different forms while English usually has 3 or 4. Big difference.

Not that this has anything to do with the rapidly deteriorating discussion here. . .

Don't feed the trolls . . . It's pointless . . .

[James D 2004]

Prokofiev, thanks for the facts that support me. Actually Latin and most of it's derivative are like this. But your conclusion about english is amusing to me.

[Joe Zop]

This guy's just an annoying jerk-off. Can we simply ignore him and get back on topic?

[Joe Zop]

Ummm, yes :D

I was simply thinking about an equivalent scale for sex workers, not so much an explanation of motivation (it's possible to provide several different ones for that) as of overall type, understanding that as with men they might move through categories over time or situation. Stein's list tends to focus on behavior, I think, more than motivation, though the latter is incorporated to explain aspects of the former.

What I meant by the not being dated aspect of Perkins' book was that because it spends more time looking at structures it wears well. It's the ones that take a look at very specific situations (usually accompanied by a social agenda) that tend to lose relevance as the specifics change. I agree it's rather like a text book, which can make for dry reading, but that's also one of the things that makes it useful, since it does a nice job sorting though some of the various studies that have been done by others and contextualizing them.

[Joe Zop]

Fabulous stuff, RN. I think I'm going to process a bit before I respond.

[PurpleNGold]

RN,

What category do you think you fit into? What category do you think your clients would say you fit?

Your descriptions are pretty good. I can think of at least one provider that would fit nicely (with some overflow) into each category.

Do you think there is any kind of progression through the groups? I would think that the 'nymphos' would tend to become 'career courtesans', while the 'bad girl wannabes' would grow into 'I'm so freakin gorgeous you should have to pay to just LOOK at me' if they don't run out the door.

[James D 2004]

Ah RN, an aspiring writer! That explains a lot and I respect that. Size 8 is too big for my taste. If you have size 6, you're welcome to stomp on me. I don't lick boots, but you can leave the heels on as long as I can get to the toes.

Popular writing is about sharing your experience to others who don't have it, provided that your audience are interested. I would be more interested in a worker's personal experience, rather than dry theories and classifications. So stick to your in-depth stories and experiences to sell books. Unless you want to be an academic or expert. Even that is a bit difficult. For example, your opinion on clients are more interesting than on escorts. The simple truth is that clients see a lot of escorts and they will have good idea about that. A client don't see other clients.

Books like Candyland is barely touching the surface. Any real client will know that the picture presented is narrow, and there are more interesting things to write about. If you are a real escort and you can write, sure you can beat books like that.

The dry classifications don't interest me that much. Every person went through different phases. Classification by age is not that spot on, even the range 25 to 35 is rather awkward. 25 is say out of college. 35 has 10 years of experience. Personal finance alone make a lot of difference. Another factor is a client's vitality. Guys that doesn't last that long, have only one shot, would naturally want eye candies, or oriental girls who can dazzle them with artistic shows and novel brothel tricks. Or GFE. The gifted would tend to prefer friendly provides who allows them to do many positions, and looks don't matter that much. And since money is a scared resource, clients can't afford the perfect girl, so there's a constant battle about what to get the next time.

There are also easier classifications for escorts as seen in the eyes of clients. In LA, in good times, if you are a young fairly looking Blondie, an aspiring model/actress, you ask for some $600 to $700. Some 18 year old dancers, after they approved you, offer sex for $1000. Porn stars with obscure movies another $1000.

The normal price is $300, $400. One client per month and you can lease a brand new MBZ E320 as low as $400. Two or three clients you can rent a decent flat. So many try and many don't want to leave because the money is so good. The price isn't lower because of neighborhood. In real estate, the same house worth a lot different in different locations. Same for escorts. In LA it's so easy to save up $100 or two, so if you lower the price you will see a lot of clients who you don't want to see. And if the neighborhood start degenerating, it's hard to regenerate.

On the lower scale are $150 asians often with temporary visas. On the lower scale, some boat people from Malaysia who worked like cattle, I heard. They even manage to smuggle in south american girls for immigrant workers with below minimum wages.

Just the other day, I saw a poster in an LA brothel saying that you can't have massage or acupressure, as they are illegal for the liscense, but you can have Q energy therapy. Couldn't stop laughing.

[PurpleNGold]

Melissa Farley, paper presented at the 11th International Congress on Women’s Health Issues, University of California College of Nursing, San Francisco. 1-28-2000 as recorded on http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/factsheet.html
All prostitution causes harm to women. Whether it is being sold by one’s family to a brothel, or whether it is being sexually abused in one’s family, running away from home, and then being pimped by one’s boyfriend, or whether one is in college and needs to pay for next semester’s tuition and one works at a strip club behind glass where men never actually touch you – all these forms of prostitution hurt the women in it.

Well, we now have a definitive answer. You all read it, prostitution is wrong, always hurts women, and can never be an acceptable form of work for women. Good thing that this Web site is supporting such quality research.

It's sort of sad, this entire page, though touted as a fact sheet, is just a bunch of negative quotes about prostitution from a bunch of women who couldn't sell themselves if they gave 95% discounts.

[James D 2004]

P&G, agree with you on the 2nd point, hehe.

But I have to agree with the quote. It hurts one way or the other, physically and / or mentally. Women should think hard about that if they have the choice. But the quote doesn't say that prostitution is wrong or imoral. That page is a collection of quotes, which points to different negative aspects of prostitution, but at 100 MPH, I don't seem to pick up that they are going for subject conclusions such as right or wrong, and the morality.

Often it's the choice of the better evil. In LA many stories involve young mothers faced with huge bills after birth complications. Pay off the 'lawyer fee' after getting here for the american dream, some $10,000 for visa and $60,000 for green card. And if you are unemployed and nothing out there, it's hard to go for a sweat shop when you have something to sell, that 1 client per month lets you drive a E320.

[Joe Zop]

Gee, let's see (the first thing on the page in question):

Prostitution is:

a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above

Nope, no way they're making a judgement about right or wrong here, since there's so many positive options one can choose on the list.

[Joe Zop]

RN, thanks again for a thought-provoking list. A couple of comments/question spring to mind.

It would seem that for the most part the courtesans and the lost souls (possibly the nymphos as well) are the only ones who really might be thinking in terms of repeat business. The professionals might expect it, but they're not going out of their way to make it happen; the superstars presume that whoever comes through the door is going to go for them so who cares, and the sleepwalkers don't much care much about anything beyond what they need. Is that an accurate way of looking at things? Are there "lifespans" to the various types -- I'd presume that courtesans and professionals could last longest in the business, but what about the rest?

From the brothel perspective, what's the right or desired mix of worker types to keep the customers flowing in, or does it at all matter? (As you mention word of mouth based on the behavior of the superstars, I'd presume it has to matter at least somewhat.)

(Aside to TNH -- if someone's ponying up $2k for obscure porn stars in LA, they're vastly, vastly overpaying. Well-known stars on the road don't always get that, and since you've got tons who live in the LA area their rates are usually cheaper there. You can go to Silverlake and hook up with very well-known stars for $500 or less.)

[PurpleNGold]

Joe,

Do you think that the Lost Souls are more common in LOS or the PI?

I was thinking of my TG and thinking she fits perfectly into that class. Then, I started thinking about the common stories of people falling for these girls and maybe that induces a lost soul mentality.

[PurpleNGold]

Here's a sex work survey. http://users.uniserve.com/~lowman/ICSS/netsamp.htm

It's interesting that less than 40% of the respondents thought Buying/Selling Sex in public should be prohibited by law. The number goes down to less than 20% if it's done in private.

So, assuming similar results would occur here, why the do we have stupid laws against it? Aren't our representatives supposed to be representative?

In another part of that survey, it notes that, of the 119 women who responded, 10% reported being assaulted (no definition given). This would be a 1 in 10 number compared with the 1 in 6 given earlier on the board.

BTW, that survey came from this site: http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~lowman/

Among other things, there's also a large bibliography of canadian literature on sex work.

Editing done to correct a misspelling

[Joe Zop]

Well, I think the Lost Souls are everywhere :) but I think it's probably true that there are more of them in LOS and PI, simply because there's more of a history there of such dreams coming true. In both places there are untold numbers of GIs over time who've hooked up with local women and married them, and certainly there are tons of male tourists who end up doing the same. I'm not really qualified to talk about PI in terms of personal experience, as I've not spent time there (looks like I may be going there to do a bit of work in the next year, however.)

In Thailand, given that a woman surrenders all social status by being a sex worker (even while elevating that of her family with her earnings) and that social status is of such huge importance compared to most of the west, it's rather natural that many would look to hook up with customers -- few will have a realistic chance at marriage with a Thai man, even if they have Thai boyfriends, (it's just pretty impossible to hide the family in Thailand, which means it's hard to hide the neighbors, which means that everybody knows) and hooking up with a farang in marriage in some ways justifies the occupational choice. Because farangs generally exist outside the social structures of Thailand, they offer a different context for these women, one in which some degree of superiority is possible, either through economic well-being or through the understanding that they're getting over.

Certainly, I've heard a far, far greater number of stories and aspirations from TGs regarding this than I have anywhere else. In my "home" bar in Chiang Mai, the female owner headed to the Netherlands with her boyfriend while I was there in last time, in a trial run for a permanent move. The lovely woman who always lobbies me to take her as my "minor wife" has spent time in Sweden and London with different boyfriends (a year in each place) and is still weepy and broken-hearted that neither worked out. We had a number of conversations about her current two suitors -- the one farang she thought she was in love with but who was younger and might not be reliable or long-term, and the one who loved her who she didn't love, who she felt was a safer bet. Both could, she felt, take care of her, but she didn't know who'd be better.

Of the dozen or so women who worked in this not atypical bar, more than half had travelled out of the country with a farang boyfriend for some length of time, and two had failed farang marriages. That's a substantially higher number than you're ever going to find in the US or OZ using such a small sample, to say the least. Most bar girls in Thailand have at least one acquaintence who's hooked up with a customer, so it's understandable that it would seem a realistic ambition -- because to some extent it is.

That's a great survey, btw. Amazing and weird that a higher percentage of respondents thought pimping is immoral and should be prohibited by law than felt the same about snuff films.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Gee, let's see (the first thing on the page in question):

Prostitution is:

a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above

Nope, no way they're making a judgement about right or wrong here, since there's so many positive options one can choose on the list.

Those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. But the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. Use your head.

BTW, don't think that with my keyboard speed faster than my brain can manage, I can write subtle things - that another grand means two grand. That is suppose to mean another example of one grand. I hate LA porn stars by the look of it. I like semi-pro Korean girls with temp visas.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by purplengold
Here's a sex work survey. http://users.uniserve.com/~lowman/ICSS/netsamp.htm

It's interesting that less than 40% of the respondents thought Buying/Selling Sex in public should be prohibited by law. The number goes down to less than 20% if it's done in private.

So, assuming similar results would occur here, why the do we have stupid laws against it? Aren't our representatives supposed to be representative?



First of all, I support legalization. But there will be big problems in USA where everything goes to extreme. Even plumbing fixtures in DIY stores are much more advanced than many other countries.

Thinking about your home value in mind. Legal in public means you have to state run some brothel areas - Amsterdam. Not Nevada types because you must find some where in the most accessible areas. Not bad but it comes with some stigmas. When I dressed not so outstandingly and went in alone to Amsterdam airport (Skepol?), the female officer smiled at me in a wicked way.

Legal in private then you have no control about zoning. A good 'bad' example is London. All the phone booths are littered with hundreds of cards of prostitutes. The working flats are everywhere. Higher end escorts have flats in posh areas like Mayfair. I personally walked up to buildings with a British guard on duty, which is rare there. In the south east they just brought up a house and used it as a brothel. It's a nice residential area and your kids may be playing in the garden while hearing orgasmic cries. If you are lucky enough to have these neighbors, you have no way of getting rid of them. And god bless your house value.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by joe_zop
That's a great survey, btw. Amazing and weird that a higher percentage of respondents thought pimping is immoral and should be prohibited by law than felt the same about snuff films.

Now that I have a solution for: just make snuff films starring pimps as snuffees and solve two problems at once!

[Joe Zop]

Those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. But the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. Use your head.

No, use your head -- it says, "prostitution is" which is an argument for a point of view, one including a blanketly negative and political perspective. It doesn't say "prostitution includes" and list high earnings for short work hours, for example. Obviously, no one's going to make the argument that having anything on that particular list happen to anyone is a good thing.

The entire site in question hasn't got a single vaguely positive or even neutral thing to say about prostitution. Indeed, it includes articles by Andrea Dworkin, who has written such gems as "Any violation of a woman's body can become sex for men," "Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent," "Rape is the primary heterosexual model for sexual relating" and my personal favorite -- "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." It also boasts an article by Catherine MacKinnon, author of such lovelies as, "You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs," "Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it," and ""All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." How can such a site possibly be viewed as other than absolutely anti-prostitution and generally anti-male propaganda?

Fine on the one grand/two grand thing. But if your brain can't write subtle things using the keyboard, it's a dead certainty that none of us are going to be able to properly understand what you're trying to say, and I suggest to you that this may well be the source of much of the discord you end up facing here, especially since you tend to post in completely absolutist terms. We can only judge by what you post, using standard rules of language which tell us you're saying this or that, not by what you may or may not be thinking or meaning, or what your personal version of syntax might happen to be. We certainly have no idea how long it takes you to compose a post, or how much thought or change goes into it. If you're not going to worry about being precise, then I suggest you simply adopt the habit of apologizing for the lack of clarity when it comes up, and explaining what you mean as opposed to taking offense. That always works for me, and there are countless examples on this board of me confessing error or apologizing for innaccuracy when it's warranted.

[PurpleNGold]

This isn't a survey, but I wish a taskforce like this would be empowered to make these changes on state and federal levels.

I especially like the fact that they recognize the high cost of prosecutorial approaches to prostitution and that it actually causes harm.

http://www.bayswan.org/1TF.html

RN, what do you think of the conclusions and suggestions? Would these be more along the lines of decriminalization as opposed to legalization?

[Dickhead]

Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by Dickhead
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.

You're right. I deleted my previous post.

[Joe Zop]

PNG, you deleted your post, but I'm going to leave my response, at least for a while. So, as to why I might bother...

First, he's had the good grace to actually be on topic of late, and a bit less bellicose. I don't have a particular problem having a discussion with someone who needs to take a bit longer to articulate what they mean, as sometimes happens, for example, with people for whom English is a second language, as long as they're actually willing to work at it and can acknowledge that clarity may be an issue. Who knows if that's the case here, but TNH did acknowledge in the post I referred to that his writing probably wasn't clear. That's a step, at least.

There are only a couple of people either in my life or online that I'm not willing to engage, and they're those who make unwarranted personal attacks on people.

Does that mean I'm not going to challenge ridiculous overstatement if he continues to do it again and again? Hardly -- a forum such as this is only as good as the accuracy of the information that's exchanged. But to my mind someone who is on topic, even if I don't agree with what they post, is not being a troll.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
PNG,

I think it's probably safe to say that I was a career courtesan. I adored my job, and I tried very hard to be good at it. I felt like I really "belonged" in the industry - and the way I've felt since I left it has certainly confirmed that for me. (Which is why I keep falling back into it every now and then. I just can't stay away. :))

I'd like to think that my clients saw me in the same way. I had a lot of regulars and got a lot of referrals and recommendations, so I guess I can't have been all that bad.

There's most definitely plenty of overflow - and progression can either occur due to experience, age, or changes in mood or life circumstances. When I first started, I was probably a cross between a bad-girl wannabe and a nympho...with a bit of "I'm so desperate for cash, I'll try just about anything!" thrown in. I needed money badly, but I was also single and really needed sex. The idea of working in a brothel - although scary at first - was a huge turn on for me, as well. After only a very short time I realised that I really loved the work, I liked seeing familiar faces so I wanted more regulars, and that if I wanted to stay in it for the long haul (which I had decided I did), I would need to treat it like a real business and work hard to be good at my job.

I didn't realize that you were semi-retired. Just curious, did you amass enough savings to retire? Or did you take a different job?

Also, just want to say that I wish I could have met you in your bad-girl/nympho stage.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. But the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. Use your head.

No, use your head -- it says, "prostitution is" which is an argument for a point of view, one including a blanketly negative and political perspective. It doesn't say "prostitution includes"
Have it your way, lets see
Prostitution is rape, for example.
Is being raped wrong? That is what I see the argument. Obviously not.

Of course you can argue whether prostitution=rape. If rape is wrong, then prostitution is wrong. But that = is obviously false, see the dictionary. So I don't see how you can accuse the author saying that prostitution is wrong. If you take the words literally, that's not much point to read it. But take it this way, prostitution means being raped. Then it has some truth to it. At times you feel being raped. Very likely you get raped in the life.

In english, a little bit of unintentional difference, like a wrong preposition, can mean very different things. What I mean subtle is the subtle difference in sentence but far apart in meaning. The way I read and the way I think I will never try to write that sort of thing. If you see one grand, that's one grand.

[PurpleNGold]

And one more site that seems worth checking out.

http://www.med.vu.nl/hcc/

One particularly interesting article:
http://www.med.vu.nl/hcc/artikelen/caulfield.htm that talks about how sex workers can certainly enjoy their work and the sense of power it gives them.

Funny thing is that the quoted study, which says women in brothels feel better about themselves after they enter the profession, is used somewhere else to say that prostitution is bad: The fact that they feel better about themselves can prevent them from leaving the position--WTF? Can't remember what website I saw that on but I'll try to find it again.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
I don't have a particular problem having a discussion with someone who needs to take a bit longer to articulate what they mean, as sometimes happens, for example, with people for whom English is a second language, as long as they're actually willing to work at it and can acknowledge that clarity may be an issue.
Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english. One person's self-regarded perfect english may be anothers trash. Look at it in another angle. Even if you assume that the author tried his very best, but if you find the words not to your liking, you don't need to read it and you don't need to response.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
Here's another fabulous site for finding out the "facts" about prostitution. www.escapeprostitution.com . Check out the Stats On Prostitution section! A few months ago, these people were looking for "survivors" of prostitution to participate in one of their studies. A note at the bottom said, (paraphrasing of course) "We understand that some women claim to choose to work in the sex industry, and that some even claim to enjoy it. Although we recognise that this opinion does exist among some prostitutes, theirs is not a viewpoint that we are seeking to include in our research".

That's too funny. We want to do a scientific study, but we're going to exclude the majority of people we want to study.

From one of the 'FAQ' sections:


Therefore, some of us at Escape--as well as other women in the overall anti-pornography and anti-prostitution movement--prefer the terms "anti-exploitation feminist" (against the use of the image of woman in a derogatory manner) or even "progressive feminist" (a feminist who is forward-thinking and envisions a less-violent, more egalitarian world).

Well, seems like anti-exploitation (or progressive) feminists are not reading things like the article I just pointed out. They basically start out by defining prostitution as evil (note the list that Joe pointed out earlier) and therefore, any support of prostitution is wrong. Pathetic.

This is sort of a fun game. Here's another 'anti' site that says it's against all prostitution, but only defines the harms of things like child and forced situations: http://www.app-jp.org/english/

[Joe Zop]

TNH, the site literally says, prostitution is rape, prostitution is a racist practice, and so on. That's as direct as you can get. It doesn't say "sometimes." Since everyone agrees that rape is wrong, agreeing that prostitution is rape means you are agreeing that prostitution is wrong. Which is why I said the site makes an argument about right and wrong.

I don't see how you can say that a site that says that prostitution IS "a means of maintaining male domination of women" doesn't take a particular side. That's simply ridiculous.

Yes, the wrong preposition can make things have different meanings than you intend. What you wrote was "another $1000." In normal English that implies the number you said before, plus this new one. You are somehow expecting is that we're going to be able to know what your definition of a subtle difference happens to be, which is impossible. We can only deal with what is written, well or badly.

Apparently PNG is correct, and you are incapable of possibly admitting you might be mistaken about something even as simple as this, not to mention basic reasoning as in the web page at issue, so I'll just put you back on my waste of time list. It's just too much time invested for too little return, and there are other people here who can manage to move conversation forward.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
Prostitution itself is simply having sex for money. Is having sex "hurtful"? Nope. Is earning money "hurtful"? Nope. So why on earth should it suddenly become so freaking "hurtful" when you put the two together??

Ahhh... herein lies the crux of the anti-exploitation feminist's argument. Since they define sex with men to be hurtful then they can say having sex with men for money is always hurtful. Pretty stupid, but if you put garbage in...

BTW, ever wonder why these chicks always seem to be the nastiest looking creatures on earth? I mean, you see them on some talk show, and the first thought is "Is that really a woman?" I'd like to see a study that would count the percentage of 'anti-exploitation feminists' who are found attractive by members of the opposite sex. I bet the number would be very very low.

[Joe Zop]

Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english.

I have, in fact, taught exactly this, to exactly those students. And the point is that if they are willing to work on the deficiencies in their work, it's worth it both for them (because their intention is to properly communicate what they have to say) and for the audience (because we get the benefit of their thoughts.)

But it is the responsibility of the author, not the audience. And, excuse me, but getting language lectures from you is beyond laughable.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by RN
PNG,
My site says the same thing about prostitution making workers feel better about themselves. Of course, my site is really just a collection of personal rants and experiences, but eventually, when I get around to working on the thing again, I will be putting links to sites like the one you mentioned, to back up my observations with fact. (www.iinet.net.au/~ashkara)

I'd really like to read the original Thesis that keeps getting quoted. I'd like to see the statistical data and how it was gathered. Did a search for Diana Prince, but just got hits for people who were remarking on her results.

BTW, I like the title of your site.

[Joe Zop]

Actually, PNG, Catherine MacKinnon is, as I recall, reasonably good looking. But you're right about the basic premise being that sex with men is hurtful -- you can see that in the quotes I posted earlier.

[PurpleNGold]

RN,

it's not so amazing. Think about groups like the KKK that spout incredibly ignorant crap yet manage to have a significant following.

Joe,

I figure there might be a couple decent looking women, but I just think of the women I've seen speaking at demonstrations and on interviews.

BTW, I've known some hella beautiful lesbians, and they've never come off as man-haters. They are just into women.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by RN
tallnhandsome

"But I have to agree with the quote. It hurts one way or the other, physically and / or mentally.

Don't take this the wrong way - I've said it to many other people on this board over the years - but until you have actually BEEN a prostitute, you are not qualified to say whether prostitution hurts or not. And until you have actually spoken to ALL prostitutes, you cannot say for sure whether it affects ALL prostitutes in the same way. But in my opinion, it only takes ONE prostitute to say that she was not hurt by prostitution - ME for example - and the whole theory goes out the window. If prostitution ITSELF is inherently bad/dangerous/etc, then surely it would affect each individual in the same way. But it doesn't. So this says to me that certain aspects SURROUNDING prostitution (most notably, the laws), can harm women in the sex industry.

Prostitution itself is simply having sex for money. Is having sex "hurtful"? Nope. Is earning money "hurtful"? Nope. So why on earth should it suddenly become so freaking "hurtful" when you put the two together??

And don't take me the wrong way too. I enjoy the company of prostitutes. Now that I see your website, I understand more of you. I thought you were doing books or website to get something out of your chest, rather than trying to sell books, a lot of them, I'm not that interested. I don't see myself interested in a lot of dry research, and rants, and so do the book buying public that make best sellers.

I said I agree to that quote, being not interested the truth of other's theory, naturally I mean I would agree to something like your saying, "So this says to me that certain aspects SURROUNDING prostitution (most notably, the laws), can harm women in the sex industry." (except that I would replace most notably with including)

My actual opinion will be that being a prostitute will likely to be hurt in many ways. Physically you can multiply the number of date rapes (ordinary women) many times in places like USA, when most workers are not 'sheltered' in a brothel, and you can't complain to the police. I have said that some girls just need one or half a client per month to drive an expensive car. I wish I had jobs like that. Even worse, there are many asian hostess in LA that don't go to bed with clients (only perhaps once in a blue moon), just by talking their way through. They get all their bills settled by the first or first few nights of the month. The parking lot of these hostess clubs looked like a MBZ dealership.

But when things changed, like the present climate, when they couldn't settle all their bills in the first week, panic, not enough money at the end of month, desperate. Since they have nothing to fall back on, they are certainly going through the downward spiral. Even aspiring models are negotiable, escorting is available if the price is right.

I'm sure there are many prostitutes who enjoy their work. But also there are many prostitutes are 'hurt' physically and mentally. If you want to get something off your chest, and get back at people whose words HURT you, by all means try to prove somebody's theory is wrong. If you want to win support, thing of what's bothering the general public, say the problem of real estate, and the stigma of Amsterdam and Nevada.

I must thank you for praising my Australian physical and human geography regarding Perth. I didn't realize that I'm right when you mentioned that last time.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
TNH, the site literally says, prostitution is rape, prostitution is a racist practice, and so on. That's as direct as you can get. It doesn't say "sometimes." Since everyone agrees that rape is wrong, agreeing that prostitution is rape means you are agreeing that prostitution is wrong. Which is why I said the site makes an argument about right and wrong.

I don't see how you can say that a site that says that prostitution IS "a means of maintaining male domination of women" doesn't take a particular side. That's simply ridiculous.

You gave me good examples to repeat my viewpoint, saving me a lot of typing. Yes, 'prostitution IS rape' is ridiculous. If you want take it literally, then there's no point to argue about ridiculous things. Taking sides, yes. But there's some difference between prostitution is wrong and being a prostitute is wrong. Given the choice

a) prostitution is wrong
b) prostitution is somethings wrong/right
c) prostitution is right

I will choose (a). But if you end up being a prostitute, there's nothing wrong about it. We all have to choose the best of all evils. As long the message is that prostitution is the last resort, it's OK. Choosing anything other than (a) may run the risk of giving the wrong message. What will RN say if she has a 18 year old daughter?

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english.

I have, in fact, taught exactly this, to exactly those students. And the point is that if they are willing to work on the deficiencies in their work, it's worth it both for them (because their intention is to properly communicate what they have to say) and for the audience (because we get the benefit of their thoughts.)

But it is the responsibility of the author, not the audience. And, excuse me, but getting language lectures from you is beyond laughable.
Attitudes like yours need to be flexible. Talking about technical, many places in USA are like United Nations now. Many students complain that their expert tutors are difficult to understand when they speaks. In many company buildings, the diversity ratio in the lift is off the roof.

Let's don't generalize. Let me tell you a story of mine. Since you can find my articles in most respectable libraries in the world, in print or online, one more or one less published doesn't bother me. Once in a blue moon I come across my own new theories or inventions that could be very interesting for a footnote of human civilization but doesn’t make money for myself. I dumbed it down in order to pass through the company lawyers. If they think the info helps the competition, or leak information about what the company is doing, the article will be hold up for many years. Many would have come across the same problem and derived the same solution by then.

In good times most people are looking after their portfolio or worrying about IPO’s rather than having the urge to write articles or review them. Many journals are in deep trouble one way or the other. Two few authors, or too much that overwhelmed the system.

I submitted the article. I reviewed these things and I know that the editor have to send out the article to many reviewers in the hope that the minimum number would reply, about 3. Often those replied first are those with a bit of time at hand, and they are very picky, often forgetting the purpose of the journal and their job is. The fact is by nature you often know very little about the new things, and if you want to stay on the review list you want to reply. Often what you can criticize is the organization of the article rather than the correctness / usefulness of the content. A guy picked on a few things that he doesn’t know about, quite usual. He suggested that I should find some English-speaking co-workers to help with the article. I looked around and laughed. I can find one who can understand the content, but he speaks Russian. Nowadays you use Microsoft Word and you get perfect spelling with no sweat. Bill Gates picks up all the dubious sentence structure and if you care to simply or rewrite, you get perfect articles according to Bill Gates at an instant. The article got rejected because of the 3rd guy. There’s no 2nd chance with the journal. But I sensed that the editor had to do that only because of formality. I resubmitted adding only replies to the criticisms, as that article is perfect English according to Bill. It’s really hard not to pick up what I want to say. I’m not supposed to do that, but the editor just found another reviewer so that my article can be published. Again you can find that in most respectable libraries in the world, in print or online.

May I repeat myself that if you don’t want to read, you don’t have to. The author failed to have one more reader, and the reader may not know what he/she is missing, that’s mutual. I don’t have advice to experts all around America, but my advice to students is to use MS Word. If you don’t get it for free, 95 or 97 don’t cost that much. And don’t be deterred by reviewers picking on Bill Gate’s English.

[Dickhead]

Hear is my letter. Eye rote it using bill gates spell chequer. As yew can sea their our know mistakes.

What a joke. Microsoft's encyclopedia is riddled with errors, too. Check out how they define the various types of cousins; it is completely incorrect.

The May 5, 2003 Business Week has an article (pg. 12) showing a study of graduate students proofreading a business letter. On average, the ones with high verbal SAT scores made 5 errors with the spell checker off and 16 with it on. The ones with lower scores made 12.3 errors with it off and 17 with it on.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by Dickhead
Hear is my letter. Eye rote it using bill gates spell chequer. As yew can sea their our know mistakes.

The grammar checker flagged "rote" and suggested wrote. The spell checker don't know about "chequer". I appreciate your time to make this up, but that would score 0 in SAT, irrelevant to your arguments. Business letter is different. I wouldn't think that any editors would want my business article. As for myself, I can't proof read myself because of the way I read, especially typos. And I won't be thinking about perfect sentence structure when I'm capturing my brain in real time. Word is as useful as having several graduate students to proof read for you. If you reject all the graduate student articles, god bless.

[PurpleNGold]

RN,

I'm looking forward to your book. Maybe, we can start a program similar to the Gideons :)

[Joe Zop]

So what if the US or anywhere else is like the United Nations? I've done extensive work in situations where there are people with a dozen different native languages are at the table, and it means, rather than that one needs to be flexible, that one needs to be more responsible and that in order to keep the quality and accuracy of conversation high, extra care needs to be taken. Otherwise you can disempower or isolate people who are bright and involved simply because they can't understand what's being said. (This is the complaint of the students with non-native teachers to whom you refer -- they want to learn, want to do well, and find the process frustrating. In most situations, schools are active in pressing such teachers to work on their skills.) This is particularly true when you're talking about technical writing, when miscommunication can lead to real-world damage. It's more work, but if you want anything truly useful to come from it, it's necessary. People go to war over sloppy translations and imagined insults, for heaven's sake.

Grammar checkers and spellchecks are by their very nature flawed and unreliable, since they're based in mathematics and not in an inherent human understanding of language, and depending on them is like depending on an old map over the knowledge of people who live in an area. I look at these tools like I look at computer operating systems -- they all suck, but in places they suck slightly less than they used to. Word's built-in functions by default promote simple business structure as the preferred model -- few people even understand that they can change the templates, let alone the limitations of those templates. As far as I'm concerned, Word's grammar checker is a Microsoft virus aimed at bringing about about the death of language.

And as someone who's been an editor and a writer in many, many guises, and who's worked a great deal with graduate students, yes, absolutely damn straight that I'd reject most of what they do in terms of proofing and correcting, both because proofreading is a learned skill and most of them don't know it and because the average language skill level of a graduate student generally isn't all that high (not even thinking here of their attention spans.) I don't say that as a knock, but as a fact, which reflects Dickhead's citation from Business Week. Accepting an article filled with grammatical and structural errors, if I'm an editor, means I have to pay someone to correct it or do it myself, since if I've got the least bit of self-respect or pride in my publication I'm certainly not going to put it out it like that. Why should I go for that, as opposed to ask the author to do their damned job in the first place? Generally, I'm going to say it's not worth the trouble, unless what's there is truly exceptional, and I'll look for something else. If someone doesn't think enough of what they've written to present it in the best light, why should I give it special credence? There is never a shortage of wannabe writers, only competent ones.

Using the excuse that your brain working too fast to be bothered to be accurate is both a sign of intellectual laziness and disrespect for your reader. I seriously doubt the brain of anyone posting here whirs at any less spectacular a rate than yours.

The bottom line is simple -- the essence of writing is supposed to be communication. If proper communication isn't happening properly, the onus is on the speaker or writer to work to make themselves clear, because theirs is the noise that is ruining the all-too-hard-to-come-by silence. They at least have the responsibility to make the interruption worthwhile as opposed to simply uttering another barbaric yawp.

(And let me note again that I'm not some language snob -- I'm a kid who grew up listening to people do the dozens on my streecorners. I use language the way I personally do because I love it and it's how I was taught. But high speech, low speech, grammatical errors, ESL, whatever -- I could care less, as long as it's possible to accurately understand what the hell is being said.)

[James D 2004]

Joe, you began to sound like Steve Job complaining about Bill on public that he has no style, or the British army complaining that the Yankees are coming at them at no formation to speak of. Not so long ago corporate america are forcing the senators to fight to increase the H1 L1 visa quotas. If you don't have to, you don't need to employ tutor/professors with imperfect english speaking skills. Flexibility is the word. There are much worse things to do than being a prostitute. I assure you that the editor cannot find things to correct in my article regarding to english. For them it's no sweat either. The reviewer's complain includes too often use of the word 'etc', etc! I just used it twice in two consecutive sentences. Not that I cannot avoid, but that's not something I ought to avoid according to my philosophy. Hehe.

Another topic. I never tried boots. It's unusual for girls to wear them if you don't ask. Could be fun. I like the foot to be semi-covered to some extend, just like lingeries.

[Joe Zop]

RN, so are you saying that career courtesans have more difficulty maintaining a separation between the job and the rest of their life because the job provides an identity or vocation, whereas the "professionals" keep things strictly in the job category? The burnout sounds a lot like what can happen to counselors, among others.

In fact it's interesting, perhaps ironically, if that's the case, since it runs parallel to how I'd categorize cops -- the most successful and long-lasting ones (and in the case of police, most often the best) are the ones who treat what they do strictly as a job. It's the idealists and control freaks who end up being disasters -- the control freaks for obvious reasons, the idealists because they discover they're powerless to change anything, and usually end up cynical, bitter and hostile, unless they either get out or rise through the ranks.

[Joe Zop]

I'm neither competing with Gates not at war with Americans. My comments are about quality of communication as connected to purpose -- which relates directly to the usefulness of posts on this board. Hiring thousands of software programmers or engineers from Asia or wherever who speak relatively poor English, for example, is no skin off my nose -- unless you want to put them in front of an auditorium full of people and then blame the audience for not understanding them, or have them write technical manuals in faulty English that get people killed because they're unclear. When I worked with Korean and Chinese grad students it was about helping them communicate well enough to say what they wanted to say, get their thesis accepted, and to get the jobs they wanted. In situations where there are clear standards and barriers, making the argument that people just ought to loosen up can be making an argument for condemning people to personal failure.

"Your philosophy" is a screw-you one in terms of promoting miscommunication and lack of clarity, and if you're going to take that approach and impose the results of it on the rest of us, you ought to at least take some responsility for resulting misunderstandings or misreadings.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by joe_zop
"Your philosophy" is a screw-you one in terms of promoting miscommunication and lack of clarity, and if you're going to take that approach and impose the results of it on the rest of us, you ought to at least take some responsility [T&H RESPONSIBILITY] for resulting misunderstandings or misreadings.
What I'm promoting is for native speakers not to be surprised with I do already, or I has ten toes. At least for me when I did my brain capture without turning on the grammar checker. Language and thinking are related. An action (verb) and time-line (tense) are two naturally unrelated things. If your language don't twist them up, the better. There's no need to force yourself to think in that way. It's trivial to correct those automatically. It's as harmless as misspelling some words like joe above. When you let your hair down, like wearing only your boxer in front of your home computer, there's nothing to be ashamed of those things. For suit occasions, just turn on the grammar checker. So in WSG, I think some "screw-you" attitude is very appropriate.

[PosterLion]

For RN and Joe.Z,

for RN: well, you're a girl on a lonely board. how could i not start to thinking?...

Joe.Z,

you like Sartre and that reminds me of a street in Romania where a girl lives I once loved.

for RN and Joe.Z,

Your correspondance reminds me of the letters written between Simone de Beauvoir and Jean-Paul Sartre_

for the both of you:

alongside the road in an indifferent universe

the flowers riot in the
field and
struggle to find their sun
as the butterflies land
on what they are
looking for

i'm not sure how to
make it out,
all that clever beauty
swaying back and forth
between mass conflict

but i do understand
something about
fences,
like the one between
me
and what i see
now

all that is necessary
is to begin,
whether i stumble
or fall
or make it over
goes away
as i become
what i'm looking
for

Do I need to ask a question now? Hmmm, how are you???

[Joe Zop]

Hah, well, PosterLion, we should be only so blessed as to be able to correspond at a fraction of that high level, but thanks for the compliment. (I can never decide whether existentialist romantics or those who are controlled by the gods are the most compelling.) Gotta say that I'm more than willing to hand over my (I think inaccurate) designation as incurable romantic of the board to you.

RN, I think we'd need to be on the same continent to manage setting up housekeeping, but it's definitely a compelling thought -- especially since you appear to have already identified a third. :) Though I'm not sure I want to hang out in the sticks near oil wells, so we may have to settle on my version of countrified (which to TNH means anything outside of SoCal.)

TNH, very well, then, since you feel it's warranted on the board: screw you. The issues with your writing are hardly simply those of tense -- fragmented thoughts and structures where one has to absolutely guess at the meaning are far more annoying. (And an occasional typo is hardly on the same level, so spare me.) I've no problem whatsoever with experimental writing, do it myself, and I love people who can do it well, such as Joyce and DeLillo, to name only two. I've also absolutely no problem with the un- or undereducated, with whom I've spent a lot of time working, or with an ESL situation. Fair enough, allowances are always in order as long as the writer is willing to clarify as opposed to blame the listener/reader. But to expect us all to read between the lines and figure out how your specific holy brain works (especially when it's often all too clear that the answer is "not that well") because you have a "theory" is nothing but a demonstration of truly monumental egotism, and is certainly not worth the effort based on the apparent quality of discourse. To paraphrase Shaw, the problem is that you lack the power of conversation but not the power of speech. But, so it goes -- I'll waste my time instead with people who give a minor damn about being understood, and with them I'm always more than willing to go the extra mile.

[Joe Zop]

RN, hmm, I seem to recall you saying you went out of your way not to be emotionally involved with clients -- is this a reversal, or are you saying that you generally try/tried but don't sucessfully manage? Is this something that happens primarily with regulars? Since you're no longer affiliated with a brothel, I'd presume that on those occasions when you are semi-unretired it's mostly with a regular, (if I'm wrong I'd be interested in hearing your business methodology) but what percentage of clients would you say a career courtesan has in the scene with which you're familiar? (The presumption here being that if a career courtesan gets such stress primarily from regulars, the higher the percentage of regulars the higher the likelihood of stress.)

I would also note that your description of emotional empathy is, of course, another major reason men find the scene so alluring. Truly sympathetic ears, even ones you pay for, are not that easy to find.

[James D 2004]

Originally posted by RN

T&H - give it up! There is nothing you can teach Joe about English. Absolutely nothing. Trust me.
How about using a spell checker?

[James D 2004]

Dick, you seem to be very pissed-off. Calm down.

[PosterLion]

DJ!

Man I'm glad I never atracted your wrath! But I tend to agree with your points of view while trying to find my own.

JZ,

You got me right, i'm a worthless slob smoking cigs and drinking vino while writing illiterate verbose things, it's my only virtue: thanks for the comp man.

RN,

toward the bottom is a comp for all them girls with prop enough to calm the restless man.

for everyone else: peace... it's out there somewhere_ message me when you find it...

more BS follows: (what the F? this is a world sex forum, why am i doing this?)

first, a little latino thought, then comes the stuff for RN, "(JZ)", feel free to be included, i'm hoping for you and RN to make something para mi. :)

===

the widows and orphans fund

while a young girl waits for her
mom to get home from work,
a man pays five dollars
to buy her mom a drink

the waiter comes back
with the drink and places
it on the table,
then he lays a 25 cent
coin next to the glass

"gracias."
the coin is bent in the middle,
as if it were hit with a hammer
while it was in a vice

she picks up the coin,
puts it in her pocket,
then she smiles at the
man

"salude!"
the glasses clink,
"to nothing,
nothing is perfect
and everything is a dream."

she puts her hand
on his leg
and hopes he will
want her

he allows her advance
and hopes that he might
feel
what he can no longer
feel

a love song begins
as he puts his hand
on hers,
looking into her eyes

they were dark and void
and she began to sing the
words,
he smiled at her as he
held her hand

from a distance
it looked as if they
were happily
in
love

===

now for the RN's out there amongst us

===

11pm on a Sunday worth dying for

I know a lady that is a women that is
a girl that writes very brave words and
she cut her hair today and put on her armor
like Joan of Arch when God called her
to save France and burn on a stake like a
heretic suing for damages that did not occur,
and I saw her sabre her sword while mounting a
noble horse and she kicked it in the side as she
cried out for her cause and her God_ the horse
galloped underneath her and she saved France,
be there no doubt it was her fresh fruit and
her virginity that saved us even though she
was not fresh and had been hooking for years
on the streets of L.A. where there are many
actors that are considered highly successful
living in big houses on the edge of a precipice,
I watched her gallop away fresh and virgin and fighting
for a cause that does not want to be saved
as I say the "Our Father" and cling to a
hope there will always be something worth
dying for because there needs to be something
to inspire epitaphs scratched in infinite granite
that tells us and shows us there is something
meaningful in a life that twists and
turns out of order while infinity intrigues us
in a way that is not mathematical except
for Architects and Artists that also saw
this lady that is a women that is a girl
naked with child on wobbly legs so courageous
we call her blessed among women and we
fight and kill for her and the little baby
she protects...

[Dickhead]

All right, let's get back on track. Today I had lunch with a good female friend (only). We were discussing my plans to evacuate; she is disappointed about this because, among other things, I give her tax and financial advice. She asked me if I was serious about the woman I met in Argentina. I said it was too soon to tell. She asked me if I was still seeing hookers down there in addition to amateurs. I said "yeah." She asked why. I said "Well, my friend doesn't really care and said it was OK." She asked me if I was really sure she didn't care. I said, "All I have to go by is what she said and she said it was OK."

Then she asked me if I screwed my friend and hookers both on the same day. I said "yeah." She asked me if I did that because the sex with the friend was inadequate. I said "no." She said, "Then why do it?" I said, "I don't know, it's there, I like it, and if it felt wrong then I would feel guilty, and then I wouldn't do it, but it doesn't so I do." She said, "Well, I know you are a cheap bastard so why pay for it if you can get it for free?" I said, "Good point but the fact I can get it for free twice a day makes the whole trip so inexpensive I have money left over so why not spend it on hookers?" She said, "Why don't you give the money to your friend instead since she is poor? (these two have talked to each other a few times via e-mail)" I said, "Well, wouldn't that make her a hooker too if I did that?" She said, "Why don't you give her the money as a gift?" I said, "If I gave you money on your birthday instead of a card or a gift, wouldn't you be insulted?" She said, "Yes, but I am not poor." I said, "Well, the hookers I pay are probably poor too."

She asked me if I thought they were as poor as my friend. I said that I didn't think so, but that I had done some other things to help my friend out financially that I thought were better than just giving her money. I mentioned the Biblical saying, "Give a [person] a fish and they eat for a day; teach them to fish and they eat for a lifetime." She said, "Look, I know you go trolling for hookers on a lot of your trips; do you ever feel guilty?" I said, "Honestly, no, and can you think of a reason why I should? I always treat them square and I am not forcing anyone to do anything." She said she'd have to think about it.

So later this afternoon she calls me up and says, "You know, I was raised Catholic and I always thought prostitution was immoral but now I am not so sure." So I asked her why she had thought it was immoral and she said ..... [long pause] .... "You know, I'm not sure!"

I consider this a moral victory. If I can get reasonable, thoughtful people (women especially) to think about this kind of stuff reasonably and not get emotional about it that, then maybe there is hope for change.

[Prokofiev]

Geez, DickHead

After reading your little story, I suddenly have doubts myself . . .

Maybe it IS immoral . . .

[PosterLion]

DJ,

F... Immoral. this is a breakthrough! Don't stop pushing the envelope, everyone is doing it whether they know it or not. It's that GD freedom thing we are killing each other over, congrats, te que vaya bien y que aprenda mucho, at least more then me.

Well, this is what I wrote my TG tonight... So many people concerned I might be falling off a cliff. I hope so! I like to fly...

well, here goes nothing, a somewhat small begininning, nothing else:

===

4 You

i know you know
a black moment

like when we kiss
and
agree
on whatever
feels right

we spoke of a magic
door
leading to infinity

a concept that
the mathematicians
are still calculating

2 plus 2 becomes something
more
as her ass encircled
me
till i came, running...

why is everything
so far away?

like you
and this door
i see
opening

like everything
gone
before
it's gotten

===

p.s. good story amigo, hit the send button before you can think, maybe the best way to be!

[PosterLion]

Hey Dickhead,

Please excuse the F@#% out of me. I replied to you as DJ when I meant DH. Well, if you read him a little, he has been holding a secret that is kicking the shit out of him, I've been following his pain too much to the point I called you by the wrong name! Give me a bullet and I'll be a Russian para un momento! :)

Hey DJ... Well you can see it, DJ or DH... she smiles at me and said, "I don't remember his name. He always gives 60 dollars."

poster...

[Paddy]

Dickhead,

Interesting posting. Thanks. Maybe there is some hope for some of the women here.

While the issue of morality vs. immorality is a personal and highly subjective issue (if not irrelevant in the grand scheme of the cosmos), I thought that her respone to your seeking out non-American women was extraordinarily neutral and non-judgemental. Every time I have revealed to a woman here that I was going abroad to seek sex, I've been torched without exception. And I mean truly torched. Even my sister-in-law almost threw me out of her house when the topic was revealed over dinner in front of my brother. He thought it was pretty cool what I was doing and was rather intrigued with the whole concept.

Basically, I won't even bring the issue up any more to anyone in the interests of self-preservation.

[Dickhead]

I haven't had too many problems with my good friends as far as mongering goes. I don't discuss it except with people I have known for many years. I've known this woman for maybe 18 years and her husband for I think 23 years. He says "it's all prostitution," meaning marriage and so forth (everybody gives something to get something, I guess would be the best way to paraphrase it). They have a very good marriage, the best I've seen, and so she is probably more secure than the average woman. He had very little sexual experience before he met her and she had quite a bit; she is a few years older than he is (she and I are the same age). Her main thing with me was that she thinks I "need a relationship" and could be risking my chances with my Argentinean friend by screwing around. Now I think she understands that 1) prostitution/mistresses/screwing around is more acceptable other places than it is in the US, if done somewhat discreetly, and 2) I don't "need a relationship" if I am getting enough good quality sex. Plus I think she thought I was going back down there just to see my friend and now she realizes that it is way too soon for anything to be serious.

As I said, the two of them have chatted, but my US friend has minimal Spanish so they use on-line translators and stuff and I am not sure they can really communicate. What I DO know is that my Argentinean friend is pumping my US friend for info but even that is pretty cool so far; she's not asking stuff like am I rich but just what's my favorite color and crap like that.

I have several AWs as friends (more women friends than men friends at this point in my life) but they are the survivors of a 45 year culling process so they should be pretty cool. They're all married or in long-term relationships and they are all reasonably attractive; I think I would have a hard time being "just friends" with an available, attractive AW who didn't want anything else. And, no matter how "nice" a fat, ugly AW could be, I don't think I could develop a serious friendship with her regardless of availability, etc. Case in point would be my nieces who are nice, intelligent, and grossly overweight; I can't stand to be around them for very long. That's probably a personal weakness on my part. But, what do you expect from a

Dickhead

[PurpleNGold]

Dickhead,

Wow. That you got a woman outside the industry to actually look at the situation objectively and that she actually started to rethink a lifetime of brainwashing is truly amazing.

I think your argument is very solid: "my friend said it's okay, the sex worker is choosing her line of work voluntarily, I feel good and have the money, why not?" Too bad more people won't openly discuss and think about the issue with such logic.

What's your friend's background? Is she very educated? Does she do something for a living that would make her more predisposed to objectivity?

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by purplengold
What's your friend's background? Is she very educated? Does she do something for a living that would make her more predisposed to objectivity?

She has four years of college but fell a bit short of graduating. First generation college student, blue collar background, comes from a long line of beauticians, half Polish and half Italian, nothing real obvious to make her objective. She worked in catering and then she and her husband (a trained chef) ran a restaurant for a while, then she was a housewife for close to ten years. Now she has a meaningless clerical job (family comes first and doesn't want any stress or responsibility). She is actually not particularly "objective" overall and has such beliefs as the moon landing was fake and was all a government conspiracy. Typical irrational female in many regards. Dyes her hair, wears lots of makeup, insecure about her appearance, all of that.

I always knew she was raised Catholic (so was I), of course, given the ethnicity, and I am pretty good friends with her mom (Polish side) but I never really thought she took her religion seriously until I got to know her a little bit better; they give up stuff for Lent and celebrate Easter and like that. She asks me about being an atheist periodically and I just say "My TV doesn't get that channel." I don't think she grew up as repressed as some.

Thinking about her and some of my other women friends, I think I have gravitated towards the open minded ones and weeded out the rest, especially as my own formal education, informal education, travelling, and mongering have progressed. With the ones who remain, I can be pretty honest and they tend to be more curious than they are judgemental.

Now I did have one sister write me off totally over mongering but my other sister is totally cool with it and thinks I should write a book about it. Win a few, lose a few.

[Joe Zop]

In some ways that the essence of the moral dilemma, don't you think? It's simple to stay with a dogmatic perspective as long as things are abstract, but once you're faced with something based in reality, you've got to actually look at it, and up close it can look very different.

And as someone who was also raised in the religion, it's not at all unusual for Catholics to shift their beliefs on various things -- let's face it, when you've got religious teaching that tells you that sex is sinful in any other situation than two married people trying to procreate, including married boinking for pleasure, (which is one of the precepts the prostitution is immoral stuff comes from) then most people are going to come to an "accomodation" of their relationship with such doctrine. And once you do it the first time, why would the rest not be open to question? Look at the church on divorce -- they're adamant that marriages can't end, so people who remarry are considered to be living in sin. I had a friend whose husband divorced her after 20 years, and whose new bride wanted to remarry in the church, so he managed, by dint of substantial financial contribution and over her strenuous objections, to get the marriage annulled -- despite the fact they had two children. (If they'd done that for Henry, there'd be no Anglicans running around!) Until they relocate all those currently sizzling in hell for the sin of eating meat on Friday, Catholics are always going to question such draconian perspectives and inconsistencies.

Dickhead, I think you seized the main battle ground on this question -- the issue of harm. If prostitution causes no harm then there's really no viable argument against it, which is why folks like the prostitutionresearch.org organization go out of their way to paint such blanket pictures of its harmful effects. (And also why advocates do the opposite.)

[PosterLion]

DHead,

I guess it is hard not to confide these things to a woman that is a friend. I did the same thing last week. I told her I was going down to Mexico and she said she wanted to go. Then I told her that I would be glad to take her and she was all over it. After that I told her I would be glad to give her a tour of a Mexican Brothel and to my astonishment she was up for that too. So, I got down here to Nuevo Laredo yesterday and while I was waiting for it to become dark enough that the red lights go on I called her up and told her I was here and about to cross over. we started talking about it and I said, "You know, it is always weird sitting here waiting for it to get dark." She asked why and I told her that I always start asking myself what the hell am I doing this for? She laughed and said, "For some reason that is exactly what I thought you were going to say." Then she told me that I was a good little monger and not to worry about it and go have some fun. Well, that happend. It was a good night. I posted on the Laredo board about it.

Well, then today I went to the bullfights and this poema comes to mind. Now, I will post this because writing this stuff is somewhat of an addiction for me. And, if yall decide that I am waisting bandwidth, just tell me and I won't post anymore of them. It won't be the first time on this board that I have been accused of working for the telecommunications industry and trying to undo the excess supply out there. :)

Besides, like you, I'll tell this to my friend and she will smile and tell me what I want to hear. lol...

ole!

i watched her walk down the
street
holding the hand of her daughter as
a little brown boy lagged
behind
stalling for her attention,
she turned and smiled
come come
i saw the love in her
eye
and saw the real life
passing me by as i think i'm
nothing
but a few bucks for the
occasional wh0re,
she encircles the bit of life
hanging on me as the snake
slips
though the hole,
a door opens
letting the bull in the
ring
snorting and pounding
he thrusts himself upon the
red cape
his life
stabbed through by the
spear
charging until he succumbs
and finally
falling dead,
no longer sweating and
spinning inside
the coliseum.

[Joe Zop]

PosterLion -- so why didn't you take her up on her interest in going with you?

As far as wasting bandwidth, well, nobody's at 300baud anymore, and I always figure it's up to Jackson to determine what is and isn't appropriate. 'Sides, I probably waste more than just about anyone, and far be it from me to say anything about anyone's poetry, since I'm one who indulges as well (though not here.)

[Paddy]

Hi RN,

Amazing articles. Just a few philosophical questions. Aren't SW's of Western Australia also citizens and tax payers??? Aren't SW's of Western Australia also citizens in need of information about disease and exploitation??? Just because a woman is a SW, does that mean that the Australian Constitution is now vacated???

After I read those articles, it seemed that SW's are viewed as non-citizens who are not entitled to information or protection. These articles clearly illustrate the imbedded and intrinsically negative attitudes that John Q. Public has toward SW's. I see what you mean.

[Joe Zop]

Ouch, RN. Unfortunately, that's all too common an occurrence for nonprofits/NGOs -- anybody with an axe to grind can usually ferret out some sort of connection between government dollars and something deemed controversial. And having everything vetted will be a major pain. At least the follow-up article is a bit more balanced.

It's silly, but a lot of times this comes down to the issue of opponents seeing the NGO wanting to lend the weight and authority of the government to what they do (or at least indicate support) even though for many constituencies such support can be seen as a negative instead of positive thing.

The specifics of the situation, in terms of the money involved, really don't matter -- opponents seize on things they deem controversial and make a big loud public connection. I remember that the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis was the center of an uproar a decade ago because $250 of a federal grant was used in partially producing a flier as part of a series they did, where one of those involved was an HIV-positive artist whose performance included ritual scarification. Or you have then NYC mayor Guliani's reaction to the "Sensations" exhibit (before 9/11 when he was viewed by many not as a hero but as a fascist) because a piece included came from an African artist who painted with cow dung and whose work included Christian symbology. (Never mind the tradition of such painting in Africa or elsewhere, or the actual positive and laudatory cultural implications usually attached when using such paint.)

Sounds as though the practical result will be a need to scrutinize accounting practices to avoid giving ammunition in the future. I'm sure it would have been just as simple to have the money for the photocopying and production of the pamphlet come from another pot, which would eliminate such issues.

It also sounds, from the government reaction, as though the climate is likely not one where you can win such a debate at this time, which means Phoenix needs to be careful not to jeopardize its financial position lest it impact other core activities or to allow itself to become a polarizing force people can use to attack the government. If the latter happens funding for good viable health programs will disappear faster than you can imagine, regardless of the actual impact or consequences. That's got nothing to do with the good of the public and everything to do with politics.

In the long run, debates about why such activities should be paid for is the really important battleground, but that's something Phoenix can't safely engage in -- support and argument needs to come from elsewhere.

[PosterLion]

JZ,

Why don't you put your Lit. on here man? Where do you put it? Hell! I'd like to read one sometime! Is it a copyright thing?

Hmmm, point the Aussie taxpayers at this board and save everyone a bunch of dollors?

just a thought, off to the bullfights!

norok!

[PosterLion]

JZ,

I called her when I got to Laredo (she could not go this time because of job and kids) now she tells me she is getting married on Saturday (which is tomorrow in Dallas)!

I know it sounds unbelievable, in a very boring world, but... it is a true story...

Meanwhile, I spoke with the Thai chica that people on other boards are convinced has an angle on me. blah blah blah...

these are the same ones that thought my emails where a waste. :) now, dun get me wrong, they your buds and all... you guys did quite a collaboration with the FAQ section.

well, what to say??? listening to a romanian folk song, "mugur de fluier." it's a song about a gypsy full of life. funny how that is when you are free, eh?

te que vaya bien!

[Joe Zop]

PosterLion: I tend to publish my stuff, so posting it here is tantamount to completely outing myself, and that's a bit farther than I care to go.

If your friend is getting married that pretty well puts the nails in the coffin on that idea. Hard to picture her new hubby going along with the idea of her heading across the border with you for a brothel visit... Too bad, as it would have made a nice tale.

As far as the reactions from the Thai section, well, though I disagree with folks there all the time I do think in general the advice is well-founded and aimed at preserving the financial and emotional well-being of those to whom it's given. While I don't buy the prevailing-wind opinion that people should generally restrict their interactions with TGs to one-shot experiences and move on, I have to admit that I've seen lots of guys get messed up and over in their encounters when they let their hearts get too involved -- or if they think their heart is located in their pants. (Let's keep in mind that there are lots of folks on this board whose overall experiences with women and relationships aren't overly positive, for a variety of reasons, and that can color things. I don't happen to fall into that camp.) One of the things women in the Thai sex scene do is heavily blur the distinction between encounters for hire and boyfriend/girlfriend, in contrast to lots of the discussion and examples you find in this section. That, of course, is one of the attractions of Thailand but it's also one of the dangers, particularly for people who don't take the time to truly understand the nuances of the cultural differences involved and how those affect things, and for those who let their hearts totally run away with them.

There are plenty of folks in that section with whom I don't see eye to eye on things, but I'd still share a beer with them -- you generally learn more from those you disagree with, I think. Heck, Samus Arum/Z and I have gone at it hammer and tong time after time, and still had a very good time when we met in person, and I look forward to doing it again sometime.

(And in truth, the other two guys deserve far, far, far more credit for the FAQ than I do -- I just chimed in with some minor information here and there. They did all the real work.)

[PosterLion]

REAL WORK and other things...

Pii Joe_Zop,

I feel the same about my life, I was lucky and had great mentors. So, I am curious, where do you publish your stuff? I'd like to know because that is what I want to do one day. I would not expect an answer here, but I would be absolutely honored to entertain any advice you might have!

Oh... I was just thinking, I can tell you are a literary man, so I want to advise you on another book from a Thai author, "Chalida."

It is the first novel by Salisa Pinkayan. She writes articles for THE NATION. The novel contains much knowledge. For instance, it has the eye view of many a Thai ridiculousness: saving face, family rigidity, smiling with a lie to hide all those things, PRESENT the happy face to the world... :)

As for me, I wrote something for all us guys tonight, and also (tambien) for Daddy's girl. I am sure you (JZ) remember as you were kind enough to say "nice post." Well, I am a sentimental bastard and I keep her picture in my wallet now. She tells me to go have a girl once in a while. She is very smart so I write this for her, and all you guys that know what I mean...

for the guys

she'll never know
or
understand
just how hard it
is
underneath that
citibank
visa,
or the mastercard
that becomes your
mentor...
a picture
of her lights up
your life

this world is spinning
by
and there
she sits
smiling underneath
all those
things you've never
told her

bright eyes with
teeth
shining
she'd be happy to cut you
off
if she knew you now

so you fork it out
20 40 60 80
closing the deal
you look at her
one
last time

that smile when
your wallet is
closing
thank GOD
she'll be
home
in the morning...

[Joe Zop]

Thanks for the heads-up on "Chalida" -- I'll have to track down a copy. As far as publishing, I do it in a variety of venues, from traditional magazines to online as well as books, depending on what it is I produce (and what level I can get accepted at, as there are various pecking orders and the places where everyone wants to be are naturally tougher to get into, though my work has appeared in some of them.) If you're serious about it, track down "Writers Market/Poets Market" and/or the "International Directory of Little Magazines and Small Presses" as a starting point.

But this is all pretty off-topic, so I don't think we should take it too much further. There are tons of resources online where you can get more information -- best of luck!

[Joe Zop]

Sounds like typical pressure politics around legislative issues. I'd be willing to bet that Mr. Hyde (clearly the source of all the wild assertions) is someone who was a strong advocate of the highly oppressive version of the legislation that's now in trouble, so he's just making political hay and tarring his Opposition brethren as being responsible for problems related to prostitution. By being the mouthpiece for this article, appearing in advance of the residents meeting, he's hoping to get a fired-up and polarized turnout meeting which can raise pressure further. (Let's face it -- few residents want prostitution, even the most best behaved, in their residential areas, any more than they want nightclubs, bars, or anything that are going to need to be explained to their children or increase traffic.) Note that this article doesn't claim these things are true -- it specifically reports them as assertions by the MLA. I'd bet Hyde is a guy who reporters feel is always good for a good juicy quote, and what he gets in return is a pulpit when he wants one.

Is the Opposition going to introduce an alternative piece of legislation? Seems like having a good model on the table is what is needed, so there can be some compromise and movement between the two sides.

And take a breather and come and post here sometimes! We miss you, too.

[Dickhead]

Is "dole rorting" the same as "dole bludging"?

[Dickhead]

Well, it sounds like your government does a better job of providing for temporary unemployment than ours does. No way any prostitutes are getting any dole in our country, at least not based on their income from prostitution. Right now our president wants to give tax cuts to wealthy investors but extended unemployment benefits are going to expire May 31. An unemployed person can collect a maximum of one-third of the money they earned the last year they were working and that is it. And after they earn 1/4 of their unemployment benefit any further earnings reduce the benefit dollar for dollar.

The true measure of any society is how it treats its weakest members, not how great things are for its most powerful.

On the other hand, in my country if you are a prostitute or a drug dealer, you sure as hell don't pay many taxes since we have no VAT and there are even some states (4 out of 50 I believe) that have no type of sales tax at all.

Oh wait a minute, waiters and waitresses do the same thing. Pisses me right off.

[Dickhead]

"I'd say one of the differences is that in the US, prostitution itself is illegal"

Well, yes, Rubbie, I thought that was er um uh kinda obvious. But I do want to point out that my country is actually very enlightened, having set aside three or four bumfuck godforsaken virtually inaccessible butt ugly counties where prostitution is legal. The 46 people who actually live in those counties are truly blessed. Oh wait a minute, no they're not. I doubt it is a coincidence that the few counties in Nevada where prostitution is actually legal (albeit under ridiculous constraints) are all very close to where "they" conduct nuclear experiments and bury the most virulent hazardous waste.

This is alarmingly similar to how we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants from Méjico and elsewhere, collect 7.65% of their wages to finance our retirement system, and then deny them participation in that retirement system.

Of course that is alarmingly different from how Australia has plenty of room and doesn't want to let anyone in anyway.

[Dickhead]

Now, Rubbie, calm down. We have plenty of stupid illegal sex workers here but none so stupid that they actually pay taxes. We don't have anything as sophisticated as CentreLink here (I do know basically what that is) because our current president doesn't want any government agency with more than three letters. It's too hard for him to remember. If you asked him what he thought about instituting a CentreLink system here I am pretty sure he would think you were talking about a golf course. This is the same political party that brought you the vice president who couldn't spell "potato" and the one that brought you the president who thought ketchup (or catsup) should be a vegetable for nutritional purposes.

Wife Laura Bush, whom I would not fuck with a borrowed dick, today opined that since educational funding will be cut to pay for the tax cut for the wealthy, stay at home moms need to start doing more to help teach their own children to read. That makes perfect sense to me since they are obviously more qualified than well-trained and decently paid public school teachers would be if we still had any of those.

Oh well. Soon I will be in Méjico where the government is corrupt at all levels so more people can participate. Prostitution is illegal, immoral, illegitimate and so forth down there too, but there is a lot more of it. A lot of the prostitutes down there are wives of the men who immigrate to the US and accidentally disremember to return to their families. Now if they just didn't have to make the sign of the cross before they had sex with you the "morality of prostitution" issue wouldn't be so glaring.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.