General Reports

[MaximusKahn]

Been enjoining my regulars so haven't been exploring too much but have made a few stops here and there.

I'm noticing the hour fees are slowly creeping up. Some at. 7 and other going to. 8. Being an hour long massage guy I got accustomed to the. 6 right away as natural inflation and covid fall out, but rising to. 8 is getting too common in my travels.

I didn't look but I'd have to assume the half hour fees are rising too.

[Member #6555]

All these kids want video verification. I have google voice but not going to facetime or use meet on my phone. Any suggestions besides get a burner? Thanks team.

I use Text now app to message them. Most of these girls usually have snapchat as well. I use that to video verify since there are no numbers involved.

One provider i messaged last night though wanted me to send a selfie with my government ID.....lmao FUCK that

[CunningLnguist]

Happy Halloween mongers! Anybody see any providers today in costume? I banged a blonde haired pirate today!

[UCBaja2]

Google Meet is linked to my Google Voice burner app.

All these kids want video verification. I have google voice but not going to facetime or use meet on my phone. Any suggestions besides get a burner? Thanks team.

[Sir Bishop]

All these kids want video verification. I have google voice but not going to facetime or use meet on my phone. Any suggestions besides get a burner? Thanks team.

Doing FaceTime with someone does not verify who you are. It does verify the cell number. If the other person wants to make sure you are not popo, nope, video verification can't do that either. Don't do video. It can be recorded and it shows them your true cell number.

[DomBlkMilitar]

All these kids want video verification. I have google voice but not going to facetime or use meet on my phone. Any suggestions besides get a burner? Thanks team.

I would have recommended using an app with an acct tied to burner email so you could use meet, instagram, X,etc.

[BotShoes]

All these kids want video verification. I have google voice but not going to facetime or use meet on my phone. Any suggestions besides get a burner? Thanks team.

[RChangDatyKing]

When seeing your favorite "Chinese" or "Asian" masseuse / providers tomorrow / this weekend don't forget to wish them a good Mid-Autumn Festival holiday. Maybe bring them a moon cake or something sweet.

https://time.com/6212026/countries-c...tumn-festival/

Happy mid-autumn festival everyone and stay safe!

[Guy456]

Have you tried checking the "Remember Me" box next to the log in fields? I had the same problem before I started doing that. I can leave the page open on my phone's browser all day and stay signed in since I've started checking the box.

Good luck to you.

-TJNiko.

This works bud. Thank you!

[MaximusKahn]

DrPornDawger, your experience and wisdom speak volumes.

LE goes after Massage Spas because they re visible to the public and an easy target to show results to the same public.

I think there are two points you might have missed. One is that I'm not sure all MMS share the house fee with all providers. Some girl work for tips alone.

Also some girls owe money for "loans" to be transported and housed. Which cuts into their personal profits and pays the MMS. Sure some maybe most operate as you say, but there are some MMS who are not so generous or honest as you've experienced.

I think true trafficking is less like a massage parlor and more like a bordello. Girls are there for sex. The locations are less visible, and may be mobile.

Girls would be younger, as youth has value in the sex trade. They may also be cyber models who entertain through the web. In these circumstances the girls are not free, don't have money, and are never without a handler very near by. They are managed and watched and move regularly so LE has a difficult time finding and following them.

So who do you go after with the goal of stopping sex trafficking? The visible, in place, infamous, "massage parlors" and claim a victory to law and order.

Massage Spa are above see level, the true trafficking business is way below see level.

[Aamores21]

It's been years since I've seen her. Just figured I'd throw the question out to see if anyone had any intel on her whereabouts. She was a great red headed PAWG, I never had any issues with scheduling or meeting up, but when she stopped posting ads, she just completely went dark. No more responses. So I figured she quit the life, and settled down maybe? Idk, I was just curious.

Damn that brings some memories of that red headed vixen.

https://www.theeroticreview.com/revi...7660592-161995

I have partaken with that BBW. It was ok, I remember sometimes it's a challenge getting a hold of her.

[Sadddkdwwws]

Interesting read and I believe there's 2 sides of the coin, but am I (or are we) letting it happen for our own benefits.

Gregory Higley Article:

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-human...massage-places

Highly unlikely.

One of the main issue is paying taxes and eventually perhaps the states will start to decriminalize and make the AMP networks legal the same way many states did so with cannabis. However it was a long time coming and there has not been a state ready to take this plunge yet it seems. Of course state legalization does not create immunity from federal prosecution but thus far it seems like the feds are staying out of the cannabis fray and letting the states self regulate as they see fit.

However the taxes created by the states for the cannabis owners seems to be creating a headwind for many and thus there is still a fair share of shadow sellers out there and the same would probably bode true for the AMP industry if there ever was a legalization. It will be a slow pot to boil and have to go through the same voting rigmarole cannabis encountered that focused on the ethical and moral issues surrounding it.

Which brings me to my question Greg. Of the $100 k-$200 k you mentioned these girls can earn how much, to your knowledge, are they reporting on their tax returns? I assume thee business owners must be reporting some taxes and therefore the county, state and feds get a piece of the pie, however the working girls, I assume, are reporting very little if any.

[Lovable]

Thanks for the great post. When I see the posted crowing about a bust, I just think it's a political stunt and a demand for more funding for the the and / PD.

[DrPornDawger]

Interesting read and I believe there's 2 sides of the coin, but am I (or are we) letting it happen for our own benefits.

Gregory Higley Article:

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-human...massage-places

Highly unlikely.

I dated an Asian woman involved in the business for many years and had a front row seat to its internal operations. She had friends all over the country involved in the business as both masseuses and owners. We traveled a lot and met a great many of them. Why should you believe me? Well, read what I'm about to say and use a little bit of common sense.

You can be an opponent of prostitution and still upvote this post. Whatever you may think of prostitution, do you think it's right that a whole group of people is being falsely accused of human trafficking and sex slavery?

Does prostitution go on at Asian massage parlors?

Of course. It's mostly handjobs, not exactly a public health emergency. Did it occur at my ex-girlfriend's place? I have no first-hand knowledge. .

Since some people seem to be confused by this point, I want to stress that human trafficking and prostitution are not the same thing. The masseuses are prostitutes. They are not trafficked. That is, they participate voluntarily in prostitution in order to make money. They are not forced to do so in any way. Are there incentives that keep them in the business? Yes. But these financial incentives are no different than those that occur in my line of work: great compensation. They only seem "sinister" if you believe that prostitution is always evil and wrong, which I do not. (However, I don't believe that prostitution is "normal" work, like flipping burgers or writing software. Human emotions and biology see to that. Sexuality is complex. I have a complicated personal attitude towards prostitution, but whatever the case it should not be illegal and should not be confused with human trafficking.) In addition, let's stress again what most of these women do most of the time: Handjobs.

Do the masseuses live in the spas?

Often they do, yes. This is not because they are sex slaves or indentured servants, but because they are itinerant workers. They will often work in one place for a few weeks or months, take a break, and then move on to another spa or just as often to another city or state. Why get a car and apartment if youre only going to be in a place for a few months?

The other reason they live in the spas is because of how they prefer to work. The masseuses want to work 7 days a week for several months and then take an extended break with no work at all, in which they usually travel, typically to Los Angeles or NYC. As a result, it is much easier to live where you work and simply focus on making money until you take your break.

My ex-girfriends masseuses did not live in her spa, because she was lucky enough to have an apartment within walking distance that she rented for their use. This is not as common an arrangement, but definitely does occur at many spas.

Are the masseuses licensed?

Usually yes. My ex-girlfriend certainly was and she only employed licensed masseuses. She was very strict about this. And finding licensed Asian masseuses (as detailed below) is pretty easy. Its my understanding that the vast majority are licensed.

I will admit that there are some owners who play fast and loose with this, hiring unlicensed masseuses, but its fairly rare. I think it depends upon how diligent the local authorities are in checking licenses, but I can only speculate.

Who owns the spas?

Women do, almost exclusively.

I never encountered a male owner. My ex-gf told me there are a few, but they are very rare. It is not considered a business suitable for a man. If you see in the news that a man was the owner of a spa, he probably wasnt. He was just the owner on paper, but in this business, the owner on paper is just a formality. In fact, a woman who owns 5 spas might list those spas with 5 different de jure owners, usually family members or very trusted friends, but shes the de facto owner.

This is almost always a family business. It is not run by big shadowy organizations.

Theres a revolving door of owners and masseuses. My ex-gf worked for a few years at it and then bought her former bosss spa. She then opened another in a different state. Many of her masseuses were previously owners who decided they didnt want to do it anymore.

How are potential masseuses found?

They certainly arent found through a human trafficking network. They are found in the way many employees are found these days: by placing an ad. This is typically done in an Asian website based in NY. Potential masseuses respond, they have a video chat via WeChat Ill have more to say about WeChat below and the usual sorts of employment negotiations occur.

If its a go, the masseuse flies in and is picked up at the airport. She then goes to work. If she lives in the spa, as is typical, she will leave her luggage and perhaps a few personal items with the owner. Unless of course the owner also lives in the spa, which is fairly common, too. In that case, the owner probably has a car and they will put that stuff in the trunk of her car.

Youll often hear Flushing, NY, mentioned when the police make allegations of human trafficking. Flushing has one of the largest populations of Chinese and Koreans together in the United States, so naturally almost all masseuses pass through Flushing. My ex-gf herself lived in Flushing for nearly a year when she first arrived here many years ago.
How does the business work?

A typical door fee for an hours massage is $70. Out of this, the owner keeps $40 and the masseuse gets $30. Any tips she gets from the customer are hers to keep. The owner gets 0% of the tips. Lets imagine she gives a very happy massage and the customer tips her $40, a pretty standard tip. This means shes made $70.

At a typical place, a masseuse will see an average of 4 customers per day, so thats $280 per day, $8,400 per month, $100,800 per year. (Because they take several long breaks, its likely to be less, probably at least $80,000 per year. But no matter how you slice and dice it, the masseuses make great money and have very few expenses.)

Thats a lot of money for a trafficked sex slave, isnt it?

The owners often work (and sometimes even live) in their own spas. This is because they make less than the masseuses unless they do so. The owner is responsible for all of the usual business expenses: rent, electricity, internet, upkeep and maintenance, insurance, taxes, and so on. If an owner has two masseuses (very common) and each sees 4 customers each day, the owners gross income is $9,600 per month. But after subtracting the various expenses, its typically closer to $6,000 - $7,000 or so. Not terrible, but most dont find this acceptable. So if you go into a spa with two masseuses, theres very good odds that one of them owns it. Dont bother asking, though, they dont like those kinds of questions.

The incentive for an owner to work in her own spa is very strong. They can make really good money. A friend of my ex-gf looks like an Asian swimsuit model and is very, very popular. She owns her own spa and (at a guess) probably sees at least six or eight customers per day herself. In addition, she has two other masseuses that work for her. I dont know exactly what she makes, but lets try to guess. As the owner, she keeps the entire door fee and her tips. If she sees six customers per day (a conservative estimate), thats $420 per day, $12,600 per month, $151,200 per year. She takes a few breaks, but not much, so lets say its $130,000 per year. However, she also gets part of the door fees for her two masseuses. Lets say they see the usual 4 per day (also a conservative estimate), so the owner gets roughly an additional $100,000 per year from them. So thats $230,000 per year. She has to pay the upkeep for the spa, which Ill guess is about $2,500 per month, $30,000 per year, so shes making at least $200,000 per year. (I think she makes a good deal more.) I do know that she owned a slightly used Maserati when I met her. Sex slavery my ass.

Do the owners push prostitution at the spas?

Most dont. They have a like/fear relationship with it. Remember, the owners make no money directly from handjobs. Their money comes purely from the door. But indirectly, its what customers expect and its what keeps them coming back for more.

The problem is that handjobs bring unwanted attention. I cant tell you how many times I heard from owners about the ideal massage business: One that had a great many customers but only did massage! If you understand my description above of how this business works, this sentiment should be obvious to you.

So why dont they just do this? After all, theres Massage Envy. The problem is that Asian masseuses would not be happy earning the usual pay of a completely legitimate massage therapist. They want to make serious money. So if an owner tells the girls no extras the result is more likely to be no masseuses.

Hows that for standing the standard narrative on its head? We hear that the masseuses are sex slaves kept in bondage by the owners, but the truth is that its the masseuses themselves that drive the prostitution side of the business far more than the owners. Given my explanation of how the business works, five seconds of reflection should tell you why that is.

Of course, there are periods of heavy law enforcement activity when the spas batten down the hatches and go only massage for a while except with established customers.

OK, great, Greg, but maybe youre just lying. Whats the evidence that these women are not victims of human trafficking and sex slavery?

Im glad you asked! Ponder this question for a moment:

Do sex slaves have the latest smartphones, bank accounts at Chase (they love Chase!) with lots of saved money, Louis Vuitton handbags, kids in American colleges, and a history of travel all around the country?

Not bloody likely. You can be sure that the police and media in recent cases have not bothered to check these very obvious, easily confirmed bits of data. The police certainly have the ability to check this out after arrests have occurred. Ask yourself why they have not done so. Perhaps because it wouldnt fit the narrative they want us to believe.

(Hint to police: When youve made an arrest at a spa for the heinous, unspeakable crime of giving a handjob, take a look at the model of smartphone the masseuse has. If you have the power to do so, look in her purse. Youll find credit cards, debit cards, perhaps checkbooks, probably a good sum of cash, etc. Then ask yourself: Does it make sense that a sex slave would have these things?)

Heres another thing to consider. WeChat is by far the most popular chat application used by Koreans and Chinese. There is in fact a vast network of owners and masseuses in this business who talk to each other on WeChat. But it is not a human trafficking network. Its more like an informal business association. And oh boy does news travel fast on this network! If any owner tried to keep some low-paid sex slaves or indentured servants (as one very ill-informed or perhaps disingenuous sheriff in Florida has tried to claim), news of this would be on WeChat immediately.

Also, the spas are run the same way everywhere, from Alaska to Florida, from California to New York. There is a kind of template. A new masseuse does not have to be given some kind of orientation to work at a new place. She already knows how it works. If an owner diverged from this template, say by cruelly enslaving the masseuses, it would be noticed very quickly.

What about the Robert Kraft case?

Sheriff Snyder has recently admitted he has insufficient evidence (read: no evidence at all) of human trafficking in that case.

I'm not surprised and you shouldn't be either. The women he arrested almost certainly make more money than the officers who arrested them.
So what’s up with the human trafficking claims?

Betty Miller and Kristeen Smart Kish have written answers which talk about human trafficking in the spas and provide links to many resources about it. I encourage you to read them. I have no reason to doubt their contents at all. A lot of it is shocking, chilling, and evil.

But they omit one crucial detail: They don’t tell you what percentage of the business is trafficked. In fact, no one has been able to provide this information. (I’ve asked both Betty and Kristeen in comments. No response.) For instance, the Polaris Project says they have no official position on this. In other words, they don’t know! The advocate I spoke with wouldn’t even hazard a guess. Is it 1%? 50%? 99%? Rare? Uncommon? Widespread? No answer. Think about that. If they truly believed it was widespread, don’t you think they would say so? I think they know it’s quite rare and don’t want to say so, for reasons I explain below.

Apropos of this, I’ve asked the following Quora question:

Of women who work at Asian massage parlors, what percentage are trafficked and what is the evidence for that percentage?

If you think you can answer it with real evidence, please do, but I’m not holding my breath.

Human trafficking goes on in agriculture as well, but no one imagines that agriculture is a business in which all workers are trafficked. But they do imagine this for the Asian massage business. Why?

Racism
Sexism
Puritanism
The illegality of prostitution
The incentives of elected sheriffs, the media, the anti-trafficking organizations, anti-prostitution activists, and “legitimate” massage therapists
Real instances of human trafficking
The racism and sexism arises because people stereotype Asian women as helpless, submissive, ignorant victims. It’s easy for them to imagine that that these women are the victims of a diabolical scheme to sell their bodies.

Puritanism has a long history in the United States. Many people find it very hard to believe that a woman would choose to give handjobs for a living. Ergo, they must be coerced!

Prostitution is illegal. Because of this, the business has to live partly underground. They are suspicious of outsiders. So people don’t really know what goes on and their imaginations run wild. In addition, many people conflate human trafficking and prostitution. They think that if you’re a prostitute, you’re trafficked.

The incentive of elected sheriffs to crow about rescuing people from human trafficking is obvious. When they actually do so, I think that’s wonderful and I can’t praise them enough. But I’ve seen no convincing evidence from the grandstanding sheriffs in recent news reports that they’ve actually discovered or busted any human trafficking. If you understand how most of this business actually works, then you know that they are (willfully) misunderstanding some of the things they see, like the masseuses living in the spas.

The media’s incentive here is obvious. Lurid stories of human trafficking and sex slavery bring in more eyeballs and those eyeballs view more ads, which brings in more revenue. I’ve seen no incentive on the part of the media to actually investigate whether there really is human trafficking going on. They seem to just accept the claims of law enforcement and activists at face value. Not much to say here and I don’t expect the media to be worth a bucket of spit when it comes to this. View everything they say about this with deep skepticism. (One wonderful exception to this is Reason’s Elizabeth Nolan Brown, who has written extensively about this very topic and has actually done her homework.)

The incentive of the anti-trafficking organizations is also obvious: more donations. We need organizations that combat human trafficking. But we also need them to be honest about it. Notice that these organizations never talk about or even attempt to estimate how widespread it is in any of their reports. (If anyone finds direct evidence that they have done so, please let me know in the comments.) This serves their interests because we then assume that it is very widespread or even the norm. And that brings more donations. When arrests occur, they never raise their hands and say, “Hey sheriff, maybe this one is not human trafficking! Maybe these are actually consensual sex workers.” (That’ll be the day.)

The incentive of “legitimate” massage therapists is also straightforward, and in a way I can’t blame them. They hate the fact that they are always suspected of being prostitutes. But that doesn’t give them the right to claim or imply that all Asian massage therapists are sex slaves.

Anti-prostitution activists, the police, and lawmakers have been frustrated for a long time that the spas are very difficult to bust. Laws passed to inconvenience the Asian spas also inconvenience the customers of “regular” massage therapists. One can’t simply pass a law outlawing Asians in massage, as that would be discriminatory. In addition, the public is mostly apathetic about prostitution. It’s not considered a big deal to most as long as it doesn’t occur in their neighborhood. But then the human trafficking scare descended like manna from heaven! Suddenly it’s widely believed that Asian masseuses are terrible victims of sex slavery. White knights of the sheriffs office to the rescue! Under cover of busting up evil trafficking rings, spas are shuttered. Or at least, they’re trying to, with mixed success. Because the human trafficking accusations are mostly bunk and the evidence flimsy, convictions will be difficult to get and I think this avenue will eventually fizzle out. I could be wrong, but I hope I’m not. I think the spas are here to stay.

There is some human trafficking that goes on. I think it’s very rare and probably occurs in large cities like New York. The anti-trafficking organizations and law enforcement do admirable work rescuing these women. But these real incidents are then used to tar the whole industry without any evidence. (If Polaris has evidence that trafficking is widespread, why won’t they estimate its prevalence?)

All of this creates a moral panic in which people want to rush in to the rescue of people who don’t want to be rescued and don’t need to be rescued. It also diverts resources away from actual victims of trafficking towards people who are merely prostitutes. (And here my ire is directed primarily at the anti-trafficking organizations, who should be deeply ashamed of themselves for this.)

What’s the solution?

Legalize prostitution. That’s really the only way. Then most of these women will come out of the shadows. It will be much more straightforward to tell who is trafficked and who is not without the distraction of another “crime” being committed.

In addition, the masseuses will abandon massage therapy, since it’s mostly a cover anyway. This will please the “legitimate” massage therapists because the association between prostitution and massage therapy will be broken.

Prostitution is ineradicable. No volley of laws from statehouses, no police crackdowns, nothing will eliminate it. Never has, never will.

One of my commenters, Nicole Emma, said that “[W]e ask for full decriminalization, not legalization. In the case of sex work, legalization puts many restrictions and fees on the workers and puts the government as our managers, most of whom have already shown to be abusive and oppressive. Legalization still disenfranchises the most vulnerable and marginalized, and still inflicts legal punishments for not meeting criteria or paying fees. Decriminalization treats the business as any other business, and the workers as workers in any other field.”

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The kind of legalization I want is total laissez-faire, i.e., keep the government out of it entirely. Since that is unlikely to occur any time soon, decriminalization will better achieve that goal until we can have a society truly organized along voluntary lines.

No one defends the spas

The spas have many, many secret fans and very few people brave enough to defend them in public. This makes them an easy target for the evil, ignorant lies and misunderstandings now being spread by the police and the media.

I’m humbled that Jini Ellyne upvoted and shared this, but I’d love to see some more women do the same. Do sex-positive feminists no longer exist? Well, turns out they do! Recently I’ve been getting a large number of upvotes from women. I’m not sure what changed to make that happen, but thank you!

I feel proud that I’m not afraid to stand up and say “no!” to this vicious human trafficking and sex slavery lie. My family, friends, and even co-workers, wonderfully open-minded people, knew my ex-gf and were aware of what she did for a living. I opened many minds with frank discussions and am therefore completely immune to the sorts of repercussions most fear.

How can I help?

These smart, enterprising women need your help to combat this vicious slander. Upvote this answer. Share it. Get an anonymous email account and start sending links to this Quora answer to media outlets. If enough of them see it, perhaps they’ll at least publicly question the human trafficking allegations. Perhaps they’ll get the police to do real police work. Hell, send it to the police, too, though I think that is much less useful.

[DrPornDawger]

It's been years since I've seen her, but she was one of my atf's. She suddenly dropped off the map. Just curious if anyone knows what came of her.

https://www.eroticmonkey.ch/stacy-ad...san-diego-5893#erotic.

Damn that brings some memories of that red headed vixen.

https://www.theeroticreview.com/revi...7660592-161995

I have partaken with that BBW. It was ok, I remember sometimes it's a challenge getting a hold of her.