The Woodshed

[Red Talon]

How, can you say slice and dice, if that's exactly what you did through this whole little discussion, when I went down the line and addressed everything you said in your posts. Then all you do is come back with "Numbers, OMG Numbers arent right". I swear the Hypocritical people that follow this man. This is exactly why its impossible to talk, converse, hold a debate with anyone that follows the current Potus. All they say is what they feel right in the moment wrong or right, which no footing. Every disagreement if you talk long enough with them has weak and shaky foundation, so if you dig deep enough into their B. S they cave and pull the exact stunt you just pulled LOL. "OMG chill out, I guess we agree to disagree I'm still going to do what I do" .

Some funny people in this world, but atleast we can agree that the virus is indeed bad and the politicians in this country at present only exacerbates the situation.

So, in your world anyone else's opinions are always wrong if they disagree with you. Understood.

[NeckAuthority]

This is an incredible the amount of time slicing and dicing my posts, well done! Just think about what you got out of it and what could have been done with it. Nothing has changed except for calling me names and everyone on all sides is right. Huge props all around!

I think the common ground we can agree on is the virus is bad and is not going anywhere and all politicians should go away.

Seriously, all points are well made. I will continue to feel the way I do and all parties involved will continue as well. Good luck and I hope everyone stays safe!

How, can you say slice and dice, if that's exactly what you did through this whole little discussion, when I went down the line and addressed everything you said in your posts. Then all you do is come back with "Numbers, OMG Numbers arent right". I swear the Hypocritical people that follow this man. This is exactly why its impossible to talk, converse, hold a debate with anyone that follows the current Potus. All they say is what they feel right in the moment wrong or right, which no footing. Every disagreement if you talk long enough with them has weak and shaky foundation, so if you dig deep enough into their B. S they cave and pull the exact stunt you just pulled LOL. "OMG chill out, I guess we agree to disagree I'm still going to do what I do" .

Some funny people in this world, but atleast we can agree that the virus is indeed bad and the politicians in this country at present only exacerbates the situation.

[Motoyo]

I think the common ground we can agree on is the virus is bad and is not going anywhere and all politicians should go away.

Seriously, all points are well made. I will continue to feel the way I do and all parties involved will continue as well. Good luck and I hope everyone stays safe!

Same! Mean no ill will or think of anyone any less for it. Everyone stay safe.

[Red Talon]

This is an incredible the amount of time slicing and dicing my posts, well done! Just think about what you got out of it and what could have been done with it. Nothing has changed except for calling me names and everyone on all sides is right. Huge props all around!

I think the common ground we can agree on is the virus is bad and is not going anywhere and all politicians should go away.

Seriously, all points are well made. I will continue to feel the way I do and all parties involved will continue as well. Good luck and I hope everyone stays safe!

[Powerhouse100]

And I never said you're stupid like the moron at Sonny's barbecue, but there are a lot of such guys around and virtually all are Republicans and Trump fans. Sorry to hear about your kidney stone. I've had a Covid test, a nasal swab and it was completely painless. Am not sure why your tests involved pain.

Looked to me like when the data didn't go the way you wanted you decided to start complaining about politics, Biden, and reciting overly simplistic conservative talking points. None of that has anything to do with anything when it comes to the question of whether this Covid is a serious problem. It most certainly is. The datas and graphs are unyielding, as is the virus as it doesn't care about your politics.

And it's like I told you before. LOL You have a false dichotomy going. There are other choices besides hiding in the house with masks on and your caution to the wind approach. The end game at least in the short term is to get the virus under control like the EU has done. Vaccines also aren't the only goal but also effective treatments. Also given the many factors cited in this article a vaccine could possibly come sooner than a year.

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/coronavi...ats-happening/

Trump has only put us in this Covid mess telling people to inject bleach, and ignored the problem for many months as he held no mask, no social distancing rallies with his morons. His China policy has been a joke (See below). There's no wall but three miles of steel slats. You paid for it, not Mexico. The midwest hasn't been re-industrialized, and he's spiked the national debt. He's gone as he's lost way too many of the middle of the road voters that gave him a chance last time.

https://warontherocks.com/2020/07/wh...-china-policy/

You forgot to mention that "terrific" healthcare policy we still don't have; the one that was to replace so-called Obamacare. Now millions are without health insurance! I can't imagine the medical bills people will have and the domino effect that will follow: record bankruptcies!

[OnTime877]

I always tell people when the virus comes up in conversation, "we will all get it, just when and how severe is the question". .

This is a statement just as ignorant as the conspiracy theorist up at Sonny's, but we all need to be aware that there are plenty of guys like yourself running around. We have to try and work around you. "We will all get it" is not a given since many countries have gotten the virus well under control. This at least buys valuable time. Your fatalist approach was tried in Sweden. They've seen 5,646 deaths and are still nowhere near heard immunity. Their neighbors with similar societal contructs Norway, Denmark, and Finland have seen 261,611, and 328 respectively. Yes there is a "way to stop the deaths. " It involves listening to contagious disease specialists and scientists, not the opinions of guys on barstools. Lessons well learned.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/5472100002/

[OnTime877]

No-where did I say it was a conspiracy.

And I never said you're stupid like the moron at Sonny's barbecue, but there are a lot of such guys around and virtually all are Republicans and Trump fans. Sorry to hear about your kidney stone. I've had a Covid test, a nasal swab and it was completely painless. Am not sure why your tests involved pain.

I said it was too politicized and to prove my point by asking a few key questions guys tied up a lot of time trying to interpret what I said.

Looked to me like when the data didn't go the way you wanted you decided to start complaining about politics, Biden, and reciting overly simplistic conservative talking points. None of that has anything to do with anything when it comes to the question of whether this Covid is a serious problem. It most certainly is. The datas and graphs are unyielding, as is the virus as it doesn't care about your politics.

I always tell people when the virus comes up in conversation, "we will all get it, just when and how severe is the question". Nothing can be done to stop the deaths. Yes, we can stay in our houses and wear masks all of the time but what is the end game? Do we stay like this for years? Yes, yes. They are working on vaccines but that is a year out at the minimum.

And it's like I told you before. LOL You have a false dichotomy going. There are other choices besides hiding in the house with masks on and your caution to the wind approach. The end game at least in the short term is to get the virus under control like the EU has done. Vaccines also aren't the only goal but also effective treatments. Also given the many factors cited in this article a vaccine could possibly come sooner than a year.

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/coronavi...ats-happening/

Everyone bitches about Trump but they do not offer solutions except for raising taxes and increasing the size of the government. If the democrats were serious about getting him out of office, why Biden? They have so many talented people they could have nominated. They also need to tell Hillary to shut the fuck up and go back to her room, she doesn't do anyone any favors. I think Trump might be elected in a landslide this year because the Democrats literally are throwing the election plus people are nit going to tell pollsters they are voting for Trump.
I just want to keep more of the money I make, let free market capitalism reign and reduce the size of both the government and welfare state. Is that too much to ask? According to the democrat party, yes it is.

Huge yawn. I'll indulge for a few even though this has nothing to do with Covid. You lost that debate over two weeks ago and have only been deflecting since. Free market capitalism hasn't "reigned" since the age of the robber barons. The abuses such an unfettered capitalist system produces have been very unpopular. There are thus checks placed on it like regulations on insider trading and other white collar crimes, and socialist systems like public education, fire safety, building and meat inpsections, student loans, Medicare and Social Security. Your typical Republican is for all of this. Only some Libertarians want to ditch all of that. They aren't worth discussing though as they'd be lucky to win 2% of the national vote. All of the world's developed economies mix socialism and capitialism because it's the only practical way to go. So your whining about Biden and Hillary are out of court to start with. Trump though is gone because he is corrupt as hell and says a lot of stupid things. He has also been incompetent in the virus response. All he has for sure at this point are his Koolaid drinkers. He needs to pick up a lot of Centrists in key states to win. He's lost most of those. Though Barak was a better candidate Biden was part of a successful two term adminstration that brought us out of the Great Recession, conservatives crying the whole way with loaves of bread under their arms. Just like they cried all during the Clinton years during a booming economy with a balanced budget. There's no end to the whining from those guys, who are the true "snowflakes. " Trump has only put us in this Covid mess telling people to inject bleach, and ignored the problem for many months as he held no mask, no social distancing rallies with his morons. His China policy has been a joke (See below). There's no wall but three miles of steel slats. You paid for it, not Mexico. The midwest hasn't been re-industrialized, and he's spiked the national debt. He's gone as he's lost way too many of the middle of the road voters that gave him a chance last time.

https://warontherocks.com/2020/07/wh...-china-policy/

[Powerhouse100]

But do you not see the kettle and pot here? Stating everyone complains about what they want, but offer no spelled out solutions, while stating what you want to complain about yourself, without stating any solutions. And "Less people like X, more people like Y" is not a solution. It's a hail mary pass by betting on the team you like to pass the buck of responsibility simply on if you find the team colors appealing.
None of of have fleshed out solutions, its hypocritical to whine others just complain and they need to keep quiet, so you can have your turn to complain. Either we all can, or none of us can.

And EVERYONE of us wants less taxes, less people dependent on welfare, and less govt waste. I mean is anyone here (or in general population) arguing:I want less of my own money, more poor people collecting welfare, and more govt overreach and bloated waste?

You are jousting windmills here to find a villain to blame. I don't see how your argument is counter to what almost every citizen wants. You are trying to make a dichotomy out of a non-disagreement.

The system as a whole is to blame not one color team banner or the other.
To think "Man if only X side ran everything. it would be great" is again, naively tribalistic and frankly childishly simple minded to think that the problem is always the side you dislike. Its never that simple...but it IS simple and 'pattern finding nature' of humans to blame the other tribe of cavemen in that other cave for the sorrows we have.
We gravitate towards "Yea...fuck THAT tribe over there" since the first time a caveman threw a rock at another cave. You have to catch when you follow that line of thinking and realize its 'dumb loyalty to pack survival trait' causing it, not logical thinking.

I always find it amazing how people on the Republican side is always saying they don't want to take care of everybody else and want to keep most of their money; rightly so! I agree! They imply that the other side is vying for their cash and are too lazy to get their own money. The truth of the matter is, both parties are a part of this problem. If both parties had the guts to make corporations pay people a living wage, maybe the country could afford to shut down for 2-3 months because people would be financially prepared. You know, most financial counselors tell us to put aside a six month emergency fund but who can do this with these starvation wages? By the way, I'm neither Republican nor Democratic, as I believe they are two feathers of the same bird. Not much difference between the two clown parties. These parties are about the corporation and not the people! Periodt!

Anyway, again, if people could actually remain out of work (excluding essential workers), while depending on their OWN emergency fund and wear masks as scientist have recommended, we would have probably been in better shape today. Let's face it though, a big part of reopening things has much to do with money. Our citizens are not prepared for a shutdown- not financially. So for those who complain about not giving their tax dollars to "those people", because of past policies (e. G. , paying starvation wages), we (USA Citizens) are now having to give our tax dollars to "those very people" in the form of stimulus checks. What will make matters worse is another round of checks might be going out--putting the country in further debt! You see how one bad policy has a domino effect? Why don't we stop blaming the poor all the time for being poor and let's consider bad policies that have also contributed to poverty and people living from paycheck to paycheck. We never blame the rich nor their prostitutes (politicians) for these issues-- but we're quick to blame the common man and woman.

[Motoyo]

Everyone bitches about Trump but they do not offer solutions except for raising taxes and increasing the size of the government.
I just want to keep more of the money I make, let free market capitalism reign and reduce the size of both the government and welfare state. Is that too much to ask? According to the democrat party, yes it is.

But do you not see the kettle and pot here? Stating everyone complains about what they want, but offer no spelled out solutions, while stating what you want to complain about yourself, without stating any solutions. And "Less people like X, more people like Y" is not a solution. It's a hail mary pass by betting on the team you like to pass the buck of responsibility simply on if you find the team colors appealing.
None of of have fleshed out solutions, its hypocritical to whine others just complain and they need to keep quiet, so you can have your turn to complain. Either we all can, or none of us can.

And EVERYONE of us wants less taxes, less people dependent on welfare, and less govt waste. I mean is anyone here (or in general population) arguing:I want less of my own money, more poor people collecting welfare, and more govt overreach and bloated waste?

You are jousting windmills here to find a villain to blame. I don't see how your argument is counter to what almost every citizen wants. You are trying to make a dichotomy out of a non-disagreement.

The system as a whole is to blame not one color team banner or the other.
To think "Man if only X side ran everything. it would be great" is again, naively tribalistic and frankly childishly simple minded to think that the problem is always the side you dislike. Its never that simple...but it IS simple and 'pattern finding nature' of humans to blame the other tribe of cavemen in that other cave for the sorrows we have.
We gravitate towards "Yea...fuck THAT tribe over there" since the first time a caveman threw a rock at another cave. You have to catch when you follow that line of thinking and realize its 'dumb loyalty to pack survival trait' causing it, not logical thinking.

[Red Talon]

Muddy the waters, etc. And why? Red Talon already told us. He wants to do everything but lick doorknobs. He wants nothing to do with any of this Covid stuff and the hindrances it places on his fun. Is like the smoker that wants to keep smoking. They want to talk about the smokers that live to be 80, or about how the numbers and science are unreliable, and whatnot.

Here's an excellent Covid data source. Pick your country and scroll down and check the graphs.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries.

These are the credentials of the site.

https://www.worldometers.info/about/

Here's a post I posted here 16 days ago with plenty of data. It also contains an article regarding long term health issues in Covid survivors.

http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/show...shed&p=4865003#post4865003.

Was at the barbecue spot this afternoon and guy said as he was leaving, "this will all magically disappear after November. " So in other words it's all a worldwide conspiracy to hurt the perpetual victim, Trump. Yes there are people this dumb, and many are in Jacksonville. Red Talon may not be this dumb, but Covid is serious business. I'm finished arguing about it on monger boards. Once the denying and deflecting starts it's a useless endeavor. Is like trying to talk someone out of their religion or committments to Area 51 and alien abductions.

No-where did I say it was a conspiracy. I said it was too politicized and to prove my point by asking a few key questions guys tied up a lot of time trying to interpret what I said. I always tell people when the virus comes up in conversation, "we will all get it, just when and how severe is the question". Nothing can be done to stop the deaths. Yes, we can stay in our houses and wear masks all of the time but what is the end game? Do we stay like this for years? Yes, yes. They are working on vaccines but that is a year out at the minimum.

Like I stated in previous posts, I will wear a mask when necessary but I'm going to live my life and not hide. I've had (3) COVID tests this year due to multiple procedures to remove a kidney stone and the tests are not pleasant to say the least.

Everyone bitches about Trump but they do not offer solutions except for raising taxes and increasing the size of the government. If the democrats were serious about getting him out of office, why Biden? They have so many talented people they could have nominated. They also need to tell Hillary to shut the fuck up and go back to her room, she doesn't do anyone any favors. I think Trump might be elected in a landslide this year because the Democrats literally are throwing the election plus people are nit going to tell pollsters they are voting for Trump.

I just want to keep more of the money I make, let free market capitalism reign and reduce the size of both the government and welfare state. Is that too much to ask? According to the democrat party, yes it is.

[OnTime877]

People keep saying positive cases keep going up, I should think they would as they keep opening new testing sites daily. I am more than happy to discuss politics from both sides but once you make it personal, you lose.

The whole argument that cases have spiked because testing has spiked was refuted 16 days ago here. That's called a "half-truth," which misleads and as such is ultimately an untruth. Trump best I can tell has abandoned that talking point.

The big spike in cases in the states isn't all about increased testing because hospitalization rates are going up considerably nationally as of late. More people are getting real sick irrespective of testing.

https://covidtracking.com/data

Also daily deaths are up nationally over the past two weeks, and are up to a significant degree as of late in at least three states, Arizona, Florida, and Texas. And hospitalization rates are spiking in Arizona and Texas. This applies to Florida as well though they have been irregular in supplying data. In any case these increased hospitalizations and deaths undermine any claim that the spikes in cases in these states are just due to increased testing. Much more is on he table. Now at this point you can poop on the data if you like, call it all "politics" but that's just copping out. That's the person that "loses" every time.

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/arizona

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/florida

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/texas

Note: This info is from a 16 day old post with some edits / updates to account for a bit of new information.

[OnTime877]

Spend another 30 seconds and you will see its because one further separates symptomatic / probable into a new group. Along with tests for past infection (anti-bodies present) meaning they was infected but passed before testing, and being excluded from current cases documented. So one is total current positive cases, the other is total of all cases: past / probable / present.

Do you really think someone would go thru all that trouble to make a conspiracy, and accidentally make a 1 million people count boo-boo in the data on 2 pages, on the same page pulling from the same data set? Even the most basic Community College data analyst they could hire to perpetuate this if it was a lie, wouldn't bumble it that bad.

That's on the same site too. Its literally the first google result when searching US covid death provision by age:
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisiona...nd-S/9bhg-hcku

All the data you say is being manipulated and misreported is out there in raw data form for anyone to compare and contrast. If you do not trust it either, you can gather each states, and combine and compare it with the CDC reported and they all match up.

Muddy the waters, etc. And why? Red Talon already told us. He wants to do everything but lick doorknobs. He wants nothing to do with any of this Covid stuff and the hindrances it places on his fun. Is like the smoker that wants to keep smoking. They want to talk about the smokers that live to be 80, or about how the numbers and science are unreliable, and whatnot.

Here's an excellent Covid data source. Pick your country and scroll down and check the graphs.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries.

These are the credentials of the site.

https://www.worldometers.info/about/

Here's a post I posted here 16 days ago with plenty of data. It also contains an article regarding long term health issues in Covid survivors.

http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/show...shed&p=4865003#post4865003.

Was at the barbecue spot this afternoon and guy said as he was leaving, "this will all magically disappear after November. " So in other words it's all a worldwide conspiracy to hurt the perpetual victim, Trump. Yes there are people this dumb, and many are in Jacksonville. Red Talon may not be this dumb, but Covid is serious business. I'm finished arguing about it on monger boards. Once the denying and deflecting starts it's a useless endeavor. Is like trying to talk someone out of their religion or committments to Area 51 and alien abductions.

[Motoyo]

Spending 30 seconds and two charts say 4. 6 million and the other is 3. 8 million. All from the CDC. Another things that should be out there is the demographics of the deaths. I'm hearing over 60% are in rest homes.

Spend another 30 seconds and you will see its because one further separates symptomatic / probable into a new group. Along with tests for past infection (anti-bodies present) meaning they was infected but passed before testing, and being excluded from current cases documented. So one is total current positive cases, the other is total of all cases: past / probable / present.

Do you really think someone would go thru all that trouble to make a conspiracy, and accidentally make a 1 million people count boo-boo in the data on 2 pages, on the same page pulling from the same data set? Even the most basic Community College data analyst they could hire to perpetuate this if it was a lie, wouldn't bumble it that bad.

Another things that should be out there is the demographics of the deaths. I'm hearing over 60% are in rest homes.

That's on the same site too. Its literally the first google result when searching US covid death provision by age:
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisiona...nd-S/9bhg-hcku

All the data you say is being manipulated and misreported is out there in raw data form for anyone to compare and contrast. If you do not trust it either, you can gather each states, and combine and compare it with the CDC reported and they all match up.

[Red Talon]

Not true, the CDC and HHS releases total tests disturbed, percentage of those used, and total positive / negative results of the sum of the total. As well the as the trend averages calculated by medical universities such as John Hopkins. Unless you are looking only at the filtered statistics of PCR tests. Then yes that is total positive for either virus or anti-bodies. But its not lack of information, its lack of information in your particular source.

You want charts?
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#testing
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ing-in-us.html
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-track...ex.html#cases.

If you want the raw unsorted data every page above has the CSV/excel ready sheet for all the statistical data gathered. or can get it also here:
https://covidtracking.com/data/download

Can get a full CSV file to sort / do whatever you want with. The info is more than out there. Unless you are trying not to look for it, not sure how to say its muddled and foggy.

Raw positive cases going up, and proportional percentages of positive cases are not the same.
Say you had 100 people tested, and 5 was positive. That's 5%. Now test 1000, and 100 are. Yes that is going up. BUT ALSO its 200% the percentage of sick to not sick of the sum it was before. It would only need to be 50 (Which is how you are referring to more) to be level.

Or to put it another way, regardless of totals, the percentage ratio of total people tested as positive, of the whole of the tested, is going up.

Spending 30 seconds and two charts say 4. 6 million and the other is 3. 8 million. All from the CDC. Another things that should be out there is the demographics of the deaths. I'm hearing over 60% are in rest homes.

[Motoyo]

Can anyone show me a chart that shows testing and positive cases of COVID? Waaaaay too much mis-information and politicization. Now we find out labs are only reporting positive results so that drives the overall average out of whack. People keep acting like on a certain date that virus will magically disappear.

Not true, the CDC and HHS releases total tests disturbed, percentage of those used, and total positive / negative results of the sum of the total. As well the as the trend averages calculated by medical universities such as John Hopkins. Unless you are looking only at the filtered statistics of PCR tests. Then yes that is total positive for either virus or anti-bodies. But its not lack of information, its lack of information in your particular source.

You want charts?
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#testing
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ing-in-us.html
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-track...ex.html#cases.

If you want the raw unsorted data every page above has the CSV/excel ready sheet for all the statistical data gathered. or can get it also here:
https://covidtracking.com/data/download

Can get a full CSV file to sort / do whatever you want with. The info is more than out there. Unless you are trying not to look for it, not sure how to say its muddled and foggy.

People keep saying positive cases keep going up, I should think they would as they keep opening new testing sites daily.

Raw positive cases going up, and proportional percentages of positive cases are not the same.
Say you had 100 people tested, and 5 was positive. That's 5%. Now test 1000, and 100 are. Yes that is going up. BUT ALSO its 200% the percentage of sick to not sick of the sum it was before. It would only need to be 50 (Which is how you are referring to more) to be level.

Or to put it another way, regardless of totals, the percentage ratio of total people tested as positive, of the whole of the tested, is going up.