Massages

[Double Nickle]

To DOUBLE NICKEL:

You're awesome.

I would be happy to answer anyone's questions or help with any confusion about the industry.

Aw Shucks, Real LMT, I'm blushing.

...I have a question. If a CMT uses terminology such as,"my unique approach", "no scented oils" , "to connect intuitively with my clients", or "designed to meet your specific needs" does that suggest they may provide special services to male clients. Or are those phrases commonly used in the industry...

My question isn't exactly the same. Real LMT, I think you indicated you used to work in a spa. My understanding is that most spas cater to both male and female clients these days. I get the impression that men aren't ordinarily turned away in these spas, unless they are real degenerates. The type that Jackson regularly kicks off this forum, USA SexGuide. But I don't think in most spas clients are there specifically to treat a medical condition. I suspect that a great many men (and women) are there in large part because they enjoy the feel of flesh against flesh, skin against skin. I think the spas will accept "relaxation" or "stress relief" as a reason for a massage.

In this type of spa in the absence of legal and professional guidelines I would submit that it would be easy for a masseuse to cross over into the way of business of many oriental spas. These give a great massage. The masseuse stays fully dressed and the client is not allowed to touch her over or under her clothes. But genital manipulation to ejaculation is carried out. This is something neither the Chinese masseuses nor the dictionary consider prostitution.

I believe you're working in more of a medical massage/therapeutic clinic environment now, rather than a typical resort type spa environment. Real LMT, I don't mean to bust your balls (so to speak), well not too much, but I've been blessed or cursed with an inordinate amount of curiosity. Would you not consider the sensual pleasure of touch to be much of the reason most clients go to a typical spa? If it weren't for the legal and professional guidelines as they are, don't you think we would end up with a huge variety of spas/massage parlors offering quite varied menus of services. Someday I want to pump your big brain about your previous spa experiences.

Double Nickle

[Bob Forchix]

To CLOUD SEVEN:

My point is that the ones who ARE offering extras should be able to be upfront about what they are offering, but, unfortunately, in our society, they can't without fear of prosecution. I'm as clear as I can be, and some men still just don't get it.

I would be happy to answer anyone's questions or help with any confusion about the industry.

Real CMT,

I have a question. If a CMT uses terminology such as,"my unique approach", "no scented oils" , "to connect intuitively with my clients", or "designed to meet your specific needs" does that suggest they may provide special services to male clients. Or are those phrases commonly used in the industry.

I see alot of ads for female CMT's that contain these terms, however, they seem to be very legitimate, and advertise pregnancy and hot stone massages as well.

I just want to avoid an uncomfortable situation with a therapist, but am trying to locate someone in my area who does cater to other interests.

Thank you.

[IrishMale]

For those who enjoy or may be interested in the art of reflexology, there is a licensed provider at Magic in Tampa who has been trained in reflexology while going to massage school. Reflexology sessions only are offered at $40 for 20 minutes but you will have to request it because it is not part of the massage. You can request it without a massage if you want to.

[IrishMale]

To IRISH MALE:

Thanks, you made a lot of important points. This is absolutely not a job I am going to get rich doing. I do it because I love it and I'm good at it. But there's not a week that goes by that my tendinitis doesn't suggest that this isn't the easiest way to make a living.

LMT,

I can't speak for others but I appreciate your input. I can shed light on some things from my standpoint only but perhaps it will give you some understanding about our side of things (or maybe just mine) inasmuch as you appear to be here with somewhat of an open mind, which is appreciated. I'm one of those guys who appreciates the massage as much as any extras that might possibly be available. If they are not, I'm not disappointed if the massage is good. For the most part, the LMTs are what they are and are dedicated to their profession. The AMPs are what they are and, based on personal knowledge and relationships, they enjoy what they do and what they make doing it. In other places here I have posted that I have enjoyed 3 different relationships with ladies associated with AMPs and I can assure you that they are there because they want to be. They make very, very good money and that is really what it's about. I have yet to meet one who wasn't able to come and go as they pleased, and do so frequently. They work every day for a couple of months and take a month off. They then travel the US or foreign countries, shop at upscale stores and in general enjoy an extended vaction. One who lived with me stopped working when she moved in with me and did so with the owner's blessing. Another took a long weekend drive out of state with me for an extended weekend. While every press release I've ever seen about raids states flatly that they are all sex slaves forced to work in the business to pay off loans for getting them here, I have not been able to find one who is being forced to work, who doesn't want to work at what she's doing, and who isn't free to come and go as she pleases. I'm saying this only to demonstrate that, regardless of their motivation, those who work in the AMPs do it because they want to and, to some extent that's the reason you work in the business in the manner you do, because it's what you want to do. It's possible that I'm a little different than some of the others here but I'm single, getting up there in age, and I don't hang out in bars. I don't seek out street walkers but I do patronize AMPs when I'm NOT in a relationship. If I don't get anything but a massage, I'm usually content but if I get any kind of extras I do partake because it's a time that I get personal contact, personal touch, some affection even if it's bought and paid for, and even some TLC. With very few exceptions, the places I've visited are clean, the workers are normally nice to me, and for an hour I feel like I'm appreciated in a way only a man can make a woman feel appreciated and only a woman can make a man feel appreciated. Most importantly, other than the risk of being rousted for it, it's safe. At least as safe as two consenting adults can be who are not exclusively involved with each other. It is something agreed to by two consenting adults, it's done behind closed doors, and yet it's unacceptable to society. I disagree with that but it is what it is. Having said all this, I still understand and respect what you do, fully understand it's hard work, know that you trained hard to get where you are, know you will not get rich, and realize and respect that you take pride in what you do. You are probably one hell of a masseuse and I hope someday I stumble across your business because I suspect I will get an excellent massage. It isn't always about the extras, but when they are there I am one of those who appreciate them. If you spend a little time on the forum you will find that your friend who brought you here is also a devotee' of a good massage. On the issue of how some of us approach you, I don't want to insult you when I come to your business if you offer no extras. I do confess, however, to being attuned to signs that a massuese may offer extras. Becuase it is frowned upon by society it is a cat and mouse game and some of us are a little more careful how we play while others are a little more aggressive, and you certainly have the right to let them know quickly what you are about. I might add that I have also patronized a number of independent providers who are licensed and very good at what they do, and yet offer some extras because, as they will tell you, they enjoy it. Please don't take offense that I and others enjoy a massage with extras because it is not intended to be a reflection on those who do nothing more than massage. A legitimate massage can be. And is. A wonderful thing. It makes the day go much better.

[Crazy Dick]

If you use email or IM with a masseuse read the following:

http://news.com.com/Police+blotter+S...3-6175084.html

Police blotter is a weekly CNET News.com report on the intersection of technology and the law.

What: Sensual masseuse who was allegedly paid for sex relies on instant-messaging transcripts when suing ex-customer for $1.5 million.

When: California Court of Appeal, Second District, rules on April 9.

Outcome: Masseuse is awarded $610 in damages.

What happened, according to court documents:
In late 2004, Nieme Goines was in the business of providing "sensual massage" services to male clients she found on the Internet. One of her clients was allegedly Peter Wilkes, an executive at a film production company in the Los Angeles area. (Other than that side business, Goines was unemployed and admits that she was in "desperate" financial circumstances.)

Goines claims that her new client promised to help her with her career, "take care of her financially," buy her a car, pay for her dental work and move her into a house in Pacific Palisades. Most of those alleged promises were not met, though Goines does acknowledge that she received gifts totaling more than $13,000 from Wilkes.

She sued. Her lawsuit, filed in August 2005, demanded a whopping $500,000 for emotional distress, $500,000 for promissory estoppel (which generally prohibits false promises) and $500,000 for punitive damages. It rests largely on an a string of alleged instant-message and e-mail conversations.

In one e-mail, Wilkes promised "2000 dollars to start a checking account this week and 500-1000 dollars to start a savings account this week" and in another a few months later, he suggested giving Goines "$2,000-$3,000 a week to help with bills, other expense, car rentals, (and) getting nice stuff like clothes." Others pledged to take care of Goines' rent and to pay the past-due bill for her dental work in January.

Sex apparently was a key component of this relationship. One exchange talked about Goines coming over to Wilkes' house in exchange for money. Another had Wilkes arguing that the $13,000 he had already handed over should have "gotten (him) 90 massage sessions." Goines once told Wilkes to find someone else to "pamper" his sexual organs.

After the sensual masseuse's male friend and roommate, Sam Killebrew, called Wilkes, he replied in an e-mail message that Killebrew had engaged in "threats." Wilkes also warned Goines that she could face charges of extortion and blackmail.

One problem in evaluating the truth of the lawsuit's allegations is that Wilkes never responded to it. Judge Victor H. Person of the Superior Court of Los Angeles County entered a default judgment against Wilkes for $610, which was the total of the dentist's bill he wrote a bounced check to cover, and Goines appealed.

California's Court of Appeal, Second District, upheld the verdict. It noted that courts will not enforce contracts based on the "moral and illicit consideration of meretricious sexual services."

Excerpts from the appeals court's opinion:
The e-mails and instant messages contain numerous examples of instances where sexual matters and money were connected. In one, respondent stated that appellant's demands "sound too much like pay for play" and asked whether giving her a car, money and a Valentine's Day gift would put her "in the mood." He said that the $13,000 he had given her should have "gotten (him) 90 massage sessions."

In one of the instant-message exchanges, respondent asked appellant if she would consider coming to his house if he gave her money. In another, he asked if he could go to her apartment that night; she replied, "i'm so broke, i can't find the 100 you gave me ... down to five dollars ... can you help me out?"

Later in that same exchange, he said: "let me know if u want to meet at 9 or not, whether i bring money or not." Appellant responded that respondent was treating her like a "prostitute" but said nothing that could be interpreted as encouragement to visit without bringing money.

In another instant-message exchange, respondent said he was coming over that night, and appellant suggested that he "(b)ring something to make my life easy...." Later, respondent complained there had been "no sex since 2 days after i gave u the money," and she reminded him, "You said you'd give me money everytime you come here."

The court, after reviewing the declarations and documentary evidence, requested a prove-up hearing. Appellant was the only witness.

Her testimony at the hearing was in accordance with the complaint and her declaration: respondent promised to open bank accounts for her, provide specific sums of money per week, move her into his home, buy her a car, expensive clothes and jewelry, and assist her in getting out of debt and into a job. He specifically promised to take care of the January dental bill.

At one point, he wrote a check to the oral surgeon, which failed to clear his account. Appellant testified that respondent referred to her as his fiancee and denied that he paid her for sex.

In response to questioning by the court, appellant admitted that she had been a sensual masseuse for three or four months, had only four clients and earned at most $800 to $900 per month. She conceded that she could return to that occupation by placing an Internet advertisement.

In addition, since the break up, she had taken computer tutorials and was working in Web design and photo retouch and restoration. The roommate she had acquired during her relationship with respondent was paying all or most of the rent on her apartment.

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In its order, the court found true many of the facts attested to by appellant, including that respondent made promises of financial support and career assistance. It also found that appellant stopped performing massage services, gathered her clothing to move into his home and arranged for a friend to move into her apartment.

Appellant's contention that the court exhibited "unfair bias" by making findings that highlighted the sexual nature of the parties' relationship represents a misapprehension about the court's role in resolving a claim by a party against a former romantic partner.

Where a plaintiff claims to have entered into a contract with a former romantic partner, under which the partner promised to provide monetary support or other financial benefits, the trial court is required to examine the nature of the parties' relationship to determine whether "sexual services form an inseparable part of the consideration for the agreement."

This is because a contract between nonmarried parties is unenforceable to the extent that it is based on "the immoral and illicit consideration of meretricious sexual services."

[Real Lmt]

To CLOUD SEVEN:

I ended up here when I began to notice traffic to my website from this site. I had to click around for a bit to figure out how and why (I was mostly concerned that someone had named me specifically as in "Any tried this place? " and that it might be driving the wrong business to my office), and ultimately found that my website was included in Double Nickel's list of massage in Manhattan. He and I chatted a bit, I found him to be smart and wise about both the legal and illegal sides of the bodywork world, and then he asked me to add my input to this forum when he started the threads about massage.

Is it a personal crusade? Umm. Not one that haunts me day and night, but yes, to an extent, it is a hope of mine and my peers to extend the divide between LMTs and "massage parlors" in the public opinion. Why? Because it's my job.

I've been hoping to open some eyes about the profession, and Double Nickel created a place for that possibility, so here I am.

To IRISH MALE:

Thanks, you made a lot of important points. This is absolutely not a job I am going to get rich doing. I do it because I love it and I'm good at it. But there's not a week that goes by that my tendinitis doesn't suggest that this isn't the easiest way to make a living.

To BILL BRADSKY:

Of course I have disclaimers. In every ad I place. The last thing on earth I want is to be propositioned, or to end up in my office with a man who believes he is going to be getting a service I do not offer. However, people seem to ignore the disclaimers. I'm not sure why. Maybe you can tell me. When I'm advertised strictly as an LMT, why DO I get calls for "sensual" massage? Why do I get calls at 3: 00am from heavy breathers? Why do I get calls from men who are clearly hinting at something but won't come out and ask directly?

I am very clear and upfront and want nothing more than to save us all a lot of time. It doesn't seem to make a difference. Is that wishful thinking on men's part? Or a belief that there is no such thing as a massage therapist who doesn't offer extras? Are these people just f*cking stupid?

My point is that the ones who ARE offering extras should be able to be upfront about what they are offering, but, unfortunately, in our society, they can't without fear of prosecution. I'm as clear as I can be, and some men still just don't get it.

As for your comment about "rubbing oil on people for $80 an hour", that is so far removed from what I do, I'm not even going to respond. Many states do not yet have legislation over the bodywork industry, the key word being YET. It is changing rapidly, and that has to do with education, not religion. I carry $2 million in liability insurance because I live in a state that licenses its massage therapists. Would anyone really want deep medical massage from someone who doesn't?

To SARANG:

I would think it would be obvious, too. But apparently it isn't. Thanks, though. Maybe I can help clear up some of the confusion, as long as I'm welcome here.

To DOUBLE NICKEL:

You're awesome.

I would be happy to answer anyone's questions or help with any confusion about the industry.

[Sarang Haeyo]

Is it just me or shouldn't it be obvious which "therapists" provide happy endings?

When I was athletic and getting the crap beaten out of me in the boxing ring years ago I learned the value of a good legitimate massage. I also knew how to find one on my own without resorting to looking at a website where the purpose is to find P4P.

This is not to say that one can't get a good therapeutic massage AND a happy ending but I think the average guy should be able to tell right off the bat which is which.

I must apologize to LMT. Your website (and those like it) should NEVER have been posted here.

SH

[IrishMale]

One way to be "up front" is to simply put a disclaimer in your ad and save everyone a lot of time.

I don't think a LMT making $80 an hour for rubbing oil on someone can be considered suffering. Few skilled nurses doing life and death procedures every day make that kind of money.

Many states don't even see a need to license a masseuse. The ones that do have a strong religious element in their legislatures imposing their beliefs on others.

Let's be realistic about the $80 an hour. Where I come from in Florida, the normal charge for an hour of stress relief massage is in the $50 range, with no release. The massage businesses are not extremely busy so even if they were making $80 per massage, it does not equate to $80 an hour. If you have only 2 customers or 3 customers in an 8 hour day, then you have only made $160 or $240 for that day. From that amount you have to deduct the rent for that day, the electricity for that day, the insurance for that day, water and sewer for that day, and any other overhead there may be. Without the extras, the traffic is bound to be less than at, say, and AMP. On the other hand, most of the providers at the AMPs keep the great majority of their money excluding what they give to the owner or manager for food and possibly laundry. It helps if the LMTs are working from their homes to reduce overhead but then if they live in a deed restricted community they may face removal for conducting a business in their community. No matter how you cut it, those who provide massages work a lot harder than we think they do, with or without the release. I want to emphasize the word massage because we don't always recieve a massage at some of the AMPs. It's the better part of an hour or 45 minutes on one's feet using lots of their muscles to relieve our muscles and after doing that on 3 or 4 people, it gets tiring. To prove this, try giving your significant other a 30 minute massage. Then two hours later give your SO another massage. Then, two hours later give your SO yet another massage. See if it doesn't get tiring as well as boring, even if you wind up in a tangle on the floor or in the bed covers. If I appear to be on the attack, I don't mean to be. I would just like to put into perspective that GIVING the massage, whether there is a HE involved or not, is far different than GETTING the massage. Which most of us are familiar with.

[Bill Bradsky]

I'd love it if we could just be upfront and honest about what services are offered, and what services we are looking for. My preference is that a monger comes right out and asks me if I offer sexual/sensual services on the phone or in an email, so that I can just say no and be done with it. Unfortunately, that isn't the way the game is played, and massage therapists are the ones to suffer.

One way to be "up front" is to simply put a disclaimer in your ad and save everyone a lot of time.

I don't think a LMT making $80 an hour for rubbing oil on someone can be considered suffering. Few skilled nurses doing life and death procedures every day make that kind of money.

Many states don't even see a need to license a masseuse. The ones that do have a strong religious element in their legislatures imposing their beliefs on others.

[Double Nickle]

Are you on a holy crusade or something? If you are a strictly legit LMT, well then why are you a member on this site?

Let me take full responsibility for Real LMT's presence. I posted her website on my list of Manhattan Massage Parlors with websites. I have no idea which website it is because the list is so long and contains so many different kinds of massage places (including similarly hidden RNT parlors). I am very glad to have her feedback though. Many of us like getting a really good massage in and of itself. If I go to a few AMPs in a row where I get no massage or a weak massage I'll develop an intense craving for a "real" massage, even if no happy ending is involved. Also, there are those of us who regularly TOFTT (take one for the team) and will go to a massage parlor that may be strictly "legitimate" or may be a place with "extras." We really need to know how to behave under those circumstances (especially some of us). Thirdly, those of us who want the best possible massage with the best possible ending need to know just what constitutes a good massage.

I actually invited Real LMT's input in my new Legitimate Massage and Other Bodywork thread. I've had a lot of massages, with and without happy endings. I've experienced other forms of bodywork. I have started putting down my experiences and knowledge of this topic. But it is a huge topic and I could really use some real experts. Real LMT is one and her feedback has not only educated me but also entertained me. She has put a lot of dough into getting educated in actual massage and she has to follow quite strict (but silly IMHO) legal guidelines or risk losing her livelihood.

OK, I like the AMPs where the K-girls come to the door in skimpy lingerie with no underwear and grab your crotch as soon as the door is closed. Real LMT is at the opposite side of the massage/bodyrub spectrum. She does medical massage that is prescribed by doctors for specific health concerns [excluding the limp dick syndrome]. Legitimate masseuses will often give their husband a special massage at home in their bedroom and legitimate nurses will often play naughty nursie at home in the bedroom. But both are constrained by legal and professional guidelines while at work in massage clinic or medical clinic. You might as well ask a nurse for a blowjob as a medical masseuse. There might even be rules against personal relationships with a client.

Sheesh, now you guys have gotten me all hot and bothered. Oh well, I think I can hang on until tomorrow when I have an appointment with a masseuse in the middle of the spectrum. She gives a great massage in regular clothes which she doesn't take off. But she also gives me a therapeutic release of certain excess bodily fluids, if you know what I mean.

Double Nickle

[Thinkstoomuch]

If they're offering you a happy ending for extra money, they're prostitutes. If the manager did it, then the manager is a prostitute. I'm not being naive...I know that women offer these services and claim to be MTs. But I'm in the business, and I know for a fact that the MTs that I work with and for are not offering such things.

I understand where you're coming from, and I can sympathize. Part of the reason behind my post is that I recognize that your position is mostly the norm, and I was trying to get some pointers on how to know whether a particular provider offers such a service as a lot of embarrassment (on both sides) can be avoided if there's a simple method.

(Note that no extra money was ever asked for, though I tend to tip a bit better and come back more frequently, and they likely know this without asking.)

I do appreciate a good massage with or without the happy ending, but if asked a leading question toward the end of the massage I'll answer as best I can and this can lead to uncomfortable situations (worse, I may have just found the best CMT in town, and if I've mistakenly interpreted their question on the end, should I go back? Would it be too weird for her? I don't know.)

[Real Lmt]

I'd think they're open to happy endings because I've received them in non-AMPs before, without any prompting on my part (other than the erection). My problem here is consistency -- same legitimate "therapeutic" establishment, same time of day, same day of the week, different provider, one winks and goes ahead without prompting (including, in one case, the manager of the place rather than an underling with the comment "I always do that"), one gets offended (as you did).

I'd argue that you didn't receive them in "legitimate therapeutic establishments" because how can they possibly BE legitimate if the workers are breaking the law? It's an oxymoron.

If they're offering you a happy ending for extra money, they're prostitutes. If the manager did it, then the manager is a prostitute. I'm not being naive...I know that women offer these services and claim to be MTs. But I'm in the business, and I know for a fact that the MTs that I work with and for are not offering such things.

What is unfortunate is that women and customers are forced by the ethics and legalities of our society to hide behind the terms of bodywork to avoid arrest. I have no problem with men and women getting together and exchanging money for whatever services they mutually agree upon behind a closed door. What I do have a problem with is the misconceptions brought on by women disguising sex work with the terminology of my profession.

The results?

My family jumping to the wrong conclusions when I started school for massage.

My boyfriend's friends giving him the elbow nudge about how he "knows what I <i>really</i> do, right?"

His ultra-conservative religious extended family worrying about his relationship with me.

Always having to be careful where I advertise, where I promote my business, who I hand my cards out to, etc.

Having to turn away possible paying clients that I've never met before, or who found me on the Internet because I'm afraid to be alone in my office with them.

Being solicited by clients. Having men put their hands on me in a sexual way.

Telling clients very specifically that I do not offer anything other than licensed therapeutic massage. And them thinking that still means they might get a handjob. Or that I am only saying that on the phone or my website to avoid suspicion from LE.

Being fearful of turning someone down and them reacting violently.

Women not wanting their partners to see massage therapists out of fear that they're really getting sexual services.

And on and on.

Maybe you'd think I was the prude here, what's the big deal? It's "relaxing", right? But would it be okay for your wife to be THAT kind of MT? Your daughter?

I'd love it if we could just be upfront and honest about what services are offered, and what services we are looking for. My preference is that a monger comes right out and asks me if I offer sexual/sensual services on the phone or in an email, so that I can just say no and be done with it. Unfortunately, that isn't the way the game is played, and massage therapists are the ones to suffer.

[Double Nickle]

In the March 2007 issue of Massage magazine an article on spas indicates that in 2005 the US spa business had revenue of 9.7 billion. There were 131 million spa visits...

There is a lot of money involved in bodywork. The above figures are just for spas and don't include bodyworkers unaffiliated with spas. It also has strange bedfellows. Politicians regulate them and raid them. Even a massage parlor without extras could be raided for health or building code violations, state licensing violations, harboring illegal aliens, tax evasion, etc. Lawyers may ardently defend them, or passionately prosecute them. Doctors may utilize their services as complementary to medical treatment; or they may hound them for practicing medicine without a license or such.

Some religions think people should be covered neck to ankle at all times (exceptions only for specifically propagating the species, and for hygiene) - and forget having a man and a woman alone behind closed doors if they are not married to each other. The fiercest battles may be between different branches of bodywork though.

Not long ago the American Medical Association was engaged in an all out attack on chiropractors. They may not have done any harm, and perhaps they even did some good, but they were supposedly guilty of the horrendous crime of practicing medicine without a license. Fortunately the AMA is not all powerful and chiropractic seems to be securely established as a legitimate discipline today. But because of medical propaganda many people still refer to chiropractors as "those quacks."

During the last quarter century Korean Massage Parlors came to totally dominate the sensual/erotic massage market. Did they do this by lobbying for political clout? Not hardly. They developed a standardized low cost high quality product. A smiling sexily clad lady would give you a table shower, a decent massage - hard or soft - and usually three options of extras. They were scrupulously clean and used condoms for anything beyond hand relief. They have become the McDonalds of rub and tug, of massage with happy endings. They have come under heavy attack in the last year by Federal, State, and Local Government. The charges tend to be unproven or unrelated to sex. It seems it is more of a control issue than a danger to public safety issue.

My phone book divides massage into two categories: therapeutic and non therapeutic. Sometimes the latter may be graced with other qualifiers such as sensual, adult, or relaxation. Note that it is not necessarily illegal. In Nevada and Rhode Island a sensual massage or body rub with full intercourse is legal. In other states a sensual bodyrub with both partners nude may be legal if no genital contact other than DIY (do it yourself) is made. Apparently bodywork with genital contact may be legal if it is for the purpose of helping a sexual dysfunction. Sexual Surrogate Therapy is definitely legal. Tantric sex is possibly legal because of religious and/or other constitutional protections.

Where does one draw the line between sensual and non sensual massage; between therapeutic and "non-therapeutic" massage (many would argue that the sex is therapeutic)? There is a clear dichotomy between the extremes. But if the entire spectrum is examined, a dividing line cannot be reasonably drawn. A therapeutic masseuse might give a relaxation massage which feels very sensual although no happy ending is given. In the same clinic one masseuse might be totally clinical, another might be playful and sexy (whether or not extras are given). A Chinese masseuse might be totally ho hum about giving hand relief considering it an integral part of the massage. But she might be totally indignant about a suggestion that a blowjob might be appreciated. President Clinton doesn't think a blowjob counts as sex. It certainly can be done without disturbing in the slightest a modestly clothed masseuses garments. Direct mouth or hand to genital contact can be avoided if the condom is carefully applied and certainly if latex gloves are worn.

But the middle ground and the most erotic extreme may be in danger. State after state is passing laws to stringently control massage. It is not to be given without a license. To get a license you have to join a large, powerful association that demands client and therapist be properly draped at all times. The relationship must be impersonal and clinical. Touching genitals is a big no no. Even out of the office personal relationships between patient and therapist may be forbidden. Even doctors don't have such strict rules. They certainly aren't barred from seeing or even touching the entire human body. One can't blame a therapist for objecting to behavior that might threaten her livelihood, but fie on the big brothers making the repressive rules.

For there are those such as myself who enjoy being nude even if the therapist is not and no sex is involved. There are those such as myself who enjoy the touch of a woman in shower or on the massage table whether or not the genitals are excluded, and even if mutual touching is excluded. There are those such as myself who believe that a business relationship need not be a bar to an open, casual friendship. And there are those such as myself who appreciate any extras without exerting undue pressure and who treat the masseuse with dignity and respect whatever extra services are given or not given.

Double Nickle. I like foreplay before sex. By far the best foreplay is a good massage.

[Thinkstoomuch]

Thanks, Double Nickel. I'll keep my ears open.

Massage therapists are trained professionals. Why would you think they're more "open" to prostitution than the woman who cuts your hair? Or your waitress? Or your bank teller? Or a female doctor? What causes anyone to think that a professional woman is just waiting for the right code word to prostitute herself?

I'd think they're open to happy endings because I've received them in non-AMPs before, without any prompting on my part (other than the erection). My problem here is consistency -- same legitimate "therapeutic" establishment, same time of day, same day of the week, different provider, one winks and goes ahead without prompting (including, in one case, the manager of the place rather than an underling with the comment "I always do that"), one gets offended (as you did).

I'll keep looking locally. Sorry if my question upset anyone -- I'm just here to try and learn and share.

[Real Lmt]

I live in an area where we simply don't have any AMPS - the closest would require something like 5 hours to get there and back, before even thinking about the session itself.

So, my question: is there a simple way to determine which "normal" massage therapists might be open to happy endings, and is there a non-offensive way to find out? I'm guessing the ones that aren't officially licensed yet would be more likely prospects than those working at day spas, but don't really know.

Anyone have any luck this way? I'm just looking for that final bit of relaxation at the end of a session, not any real extras.

I really just don't understand this type of thinking. There's one important factor in the AMP establishments and what you can get there: THEY'RE NOT MASSAGE THERAPISTS. They ARE prostitutes using "massage" as an excuse to have naked men in a room and advertise to get them there.

DoubleNickel is helping you to determine which massage ads and places are actually not "normal" massage therapists, but sex workers hiding behind the terms of bodywork.

Massage therapists are trained professionals. Why would you think they're more "open" to prostitution than the woman who cuts your hair? Or your waitress? Or your bank teller? Or a female doctor? What causes anyone to think that a professional woman is just waiting for the right code word to prostitute herself?

NO, there is no non-offensive way to suggest to a "normal" (READ: REAL) massage therapist that you suspect she might actually be a prostitute.