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I've seen alot of areas get real heavy with LE doing busts after some talk here of certain areas being active. LE is using this board as a tool to find curent active areas and do busts. It would be nice if we could come up with some ideas to help prevent this. A idea of mine is t put in the terms and conditions that LE and affiliates cannot join this site or use information from it. Don't know if that will help much, but this is a problem that needs to be addressed.
[QUOTE=Great One]I've seen alot of areas get real heavy with LE doing busts after some talk here of certain areas being active. LE is using this board as a tool to find curent active areas and do busts. It would be nice if we could come up with some ideas to help prevent this. A idea of mine is t put in the terms and conditions that LE and affiliates cannot join this site or use information from it. Don't know if that will help much, but this is a problem that needs to be addressed.[/QUOTE]Just a thought but how about requiring a recommendation by a senior member before access is granted? There's probably no fool proof procedure but making it a little more difficult might help some.
Hmmm.
[QUOTE=Irish Male 2]Just a thought but how about requiring a recommendation by a senior member before access is granted? There's probably no fool proof procedure but making it a little more difficult might help some.[/QUOTE]
Requiring a recommendation from a Sr. Member would be the best way to prevent LEO from [i]joining[/i] the Guide, but, remember, the posts are also available for the Public to read. Therefore, I don't think that would really solve the problem. Also, it would prevent lurkers from joining the Guide too, as many of them (lurkers) may not know other Mongers who use the Guide.
[QUOTE=Great One]LE is using this board as a tool to find curent active areas and do busts. It would be nice if we could come up with some ideas to help prevent this. A idea of mine is t put in the terms and conditions that LE and affiliates cannot join this site or use information from it. Don't know if that will help much, but this is a problem that needs to be addressed.[/QUOTE]
Putting that type of thing into the TOC of the website wouldn't do a bit of good. Consider it in the same way a SW trys to "protect" herself by asking "are you a cop?" It provides absolutely no protection whatsoever.
Remember, ULEOs are allowed to lie when undercover. Hell, cops can lie to you whenever they want if they are conducting an investigation. For example, how many times have you heard a story where the cop says, "look, just admit it, and I'll let you go" Bullshit. Their job is to get the evidence required to prosecute you.
[url]http://www.snopes.com/risque/hookers/cop.asp[/url]
[url]http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070908171726AACoWOq[/url]
[url]http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ykviqdFPL78J:www.monterey.army.mil/staff/SJA/TDS/content/suspect_rights_paper.pdf+police+can+lie+during+a+investigation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us[/url]
See Johnson v. Harkleroad, 104 Fed. Appx. 858 (4 Cir. 2004) (“police may engage in some misrepresentation without rendering a suspect’s resulting confession involuntary or coerced.”)
United States v. Kontny, 238 F.3d 815 (7th Cir. 2001)(“[T]rickery, deceit, even impersonation do not render a confession inadmissible, certainly in noncustodial situations and usually in custodial ones as well, unless the government agents make threats or promises.”)
Also LaFave et al., 2 Criminal Procedure § 6.2(c) at 456 (2 ed. 1999) (“as a general matter it may be said that the courts have not deemed [trickery] sufficient by itself to make a confession involuntary.”)
Finally, I'm not convinced of the "cause and effect" relationship between the Guide, and Vice crackdowns. Let's face it, the areas where SWs are found aren't the best neighborhoods in town. So, in addition to the SWs, you'll find drug dealers, burglers, muggers, car-jackers, etc. It seems that busting SWs is an easy way to do something "visible" in an area, in the hopes that criminals will be at least a little more worried about being busted, and "be good". Also, as a number of SWs are drug users, LE can use the busts of the SWs as a good intel gathering method to move onto busting the drugs dealers, hoping to "flip" the SWs against the dealers, who may be willing to give LEO some info, in hopes of getting a lighter sentence.
As far a Escorts/CL ads/Massage Parlors go, then, yes, a little discretion when making a post would be a good idea...
Wallie
I can't speak for any place else, Wallie, but I can say that where I am located I've seen AMPs in place and operating for long periods of time under the same ownership and the same type of service. However, within a few months after seeing very graphic descriptions of services and directions to the places, within a few months there were busts there. I agree that this is not conclusive evidence that the forum is the best intel but I do know this. The other AMPs that have not been written about are still operating and there have been no reports of busts there. Again, this is not to say that the forum is the reason for the LE activities, but it does make one wonder. As I said some time ago to someone in another post, why draw a road map. It makes sense to assume the worst, be careful in one's practice, and exchange sensitive information carefully.
Pertaining to the "Are you a cop?" question, I don't remember which town it was in, there was a sting of mp's in northern VA where ULEO was going to the mp, engaging in FS/HJ (whatever else they could get), leaving the estblishment then turning around on the same night and shutting down the place. They were taken to court over this "unlawful" practice of emtrapment and the judge said that they were allowed to do this and upheld the arrests.
[QUOTE=Great One]I've seen alot of areas get real heavy with LE doing busts after some talk here of certain areas being active. LE is using this board as a tool to find curent active areas and do busts. It would be nice if we could come up with some ideas to help prevent this. A idea of mine is t put in the terms and conditions that LE and affiliates cannot join this site or use information from it. Don't know if that will help much, but this is a problem that needs to be addressed.[/QUOTE]Meaning of course no disrespect but most AMPs in my area advertise in the local rags. Everyone knows what goes on at these places and they are routinely busted and reopen. I avoid them for a few personal reason, one being that they are always on the verge of being raided.
As far as street action. Live in a big city where things can change in the blink of an eye. There are miles of streets and side streets where action pops up, usually following the drug trade. We need a Twitter feed to keep up with thing around here.
That said I can understand the plight of smaller areas, but feel free to visit us in Philly any time.
There are a couple ways to do the blocking: technical and policy. Both do not have a way that will work.
Technical: We could block the IP address blocks of known government organizations from even being able to access the website. They would get something like a 403 forbidden from the web server. However, many police stations (I've repaired a former officer's computer, and he let this slip) are on the same Internet provider you or I have, just on a business class rather than residential account. SBC, Verizon, Comcast, one of those. They are getting dynamic IPs. If we were to block the whole address block of SBC's internet subscribers, chances are half the mongers out there would never be able to see this board again. By this virtue, the technical block won't work.
Policy: We COULD get a lawyer to write a supposedly bullet proof policy for this site, as was mentioned aove. However, the law can easily get past this by asking for a search warrant, and presenting this to the site owner, then the ISP this site runs on. If the site owner refuses, the law enforcement can demand the ISP turn off the site's Internet access... and we're in the dark.
Unforrtunately, there is no real way the site can differentiate between law enforcement and you. Which is the same reason "Yes, I am 18" buttons don't work to stop teens on public adult sites either.
[blue]===============================================
Hi guys,
Just to put this in perspective:
1. There is no club, massage parlor, escort service, streetwalker location or other place described on this website that the local police don't already know about, with or without this website. Don't be so naive as to think that local LE doesn't already know what's going on in their town.
2. No Forum Members have ever been detained, questioned or investigated as a result of information that they or others posted on this Forum.
3. No information in this Forum has ever been used in any prosecution. It's simply not qualified evidence.
4. The police will never get any information from me about any forum member, and they never will because the forum's servers are located in Frankfurt, Germany, safely outside the reach of the USA legal system.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
[QUOTE=Grimpy]However, the law can easily get past this by asking for a search warrant, and presenting this to the site owner, then the ISP this site runs on. If the site owner refuses, the law enforcement can demand the ISP turn off the site's Internet access... and we're in the dark.[/QUOTE][blue]===============================================
Hi guys,
I don't know where Grimpy went to law school, but he is manifestly incorrect.
LE will never get any information from me about any forum member, largely because because the forum is owned by an South American corporation and the servers are located in Frankfurt, Germany, a country where commercial sex is legal, and which is safely outside the reach of the USA legal system.
Nevertheless, approximately once a year I am contacted by some local LEO or ADA requesting information from me pursuant to some investigation they are conducting. The scenario is always the same: They contact me, and I refer them to my attorney, who is a specialist in these matters. He advises them that the website is owned by an South American corporation, that the servers are located in a country outside of the American government's legal jurisdiction. They threaten to serve me and/or my server host with a subpoena, my attorney tells them to go pound sand, and we never hear from them again.
In fact, the only time I or my server host has ever been served with a subpoena was when I was embroiled in a lawsuit brought against me by one of my competitors who was attempting to steal my forum from me. In that suit, the "plaintiff" (who shall remain unnamed) physically served a subpoena on my server host, who at that time located in Montreal, Canada. My attorney and the attorney for my server host were both on top of the situation before the subpoena ever arrived, and the plaintiff was told to "fuck off".
BTW, the lawsuit continued for another year until it was resolved in my favor, and they never got their hands on my database.
Guys, the bottom line is that I think it's reasonable for all of you to assume that I am on top of the situation, and that anyone who speculates to the contrary either doesn't know what they are talking about, or they are simply trying to start trouble by deterring members from participating in the forum.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
[QUOTE=Admin][blue]===========================================
Hi guys,
I don't know where Grimpy went to law school, but he is manifestly incorrect.
LE will never get any information from me about any forum member, largely because because the forum is owned by an South American corporation and the servers are located in Frankfurt, Germany, a country where commercial sex is legal, and which is safely outside the reach of the USA legal system.
Nevertheless, approximately once a year I am contacted by some local LEO or ADA requesting information from me pursuant to some investigation they are conducting. The scenario is always the same: They contact me, and I refer them to my attorney, who is a specialist in these matters. He advises them that the website is owned by an South American corporation, that the servers are located in a country outside of the American government's legal jurisdiction. They threaten to serve me and/or my server host with a subpoena, my attorney tells them to go pound sand, and we never hear from them again.
In fact, the only time I or my server host has ever been served with a subpoena was when I was embroiled in a lawsuit brought against me by one of my competitors who was attempting to steal my forum from me. In that suit, the "plaintiff" (who shall remain unnamed) physically served a subpoena on my server host, who at that time located in Montreal, Canada. My attorney and the attorney for my server host were both on top of the situation before the subpoena ever arrived, and the plaintiff was told to "fuck off".
BTW, the lawsuit continued for another year until it was resolved in my favor, and they never got their hands on my database.
Guys, the bottom line is that I think it's reasonable for all of you to assume that I am on top of the situation, and that anyone who speculates to the contrary either doesn't know what they are talking about, or they are simply trying to start trouble by deterring members from participating in the forum.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Thank you for the correction. I was operating by the false assumption that this site was operating either within the borders of the United States legal system. or within a country that would bow easily to demands from the US government (although that second one, I do admit, would require some major law enforcement agency far above what would be involved in the routine activities described on this site.... probably only to be brought in under extreme circumstances such as a murder or kidnapping.)
I apologize, and should have done my homework on the ownership location of the site and legal ramifications of a request against that location.
[blue]===========================================
Grimpy,
Very nicely stated, and thanks.
Jackson[/blue]
[QUOTE=Grimpy; 964838]There are a couple ways to do the blocking: technical and policy. Both do not have a way that will work.
Technical: We could block the IP address blocks of known government organizations from even being able to access the website. They would get something like a 403 forbidden from the web server. However, many police stations (I've repaired a former officer's computer, and he let this slip) are on the same Internet provider you or I have, just on a business class rather than residential account. SBC, Verizon, Comcast, one of those. They are getting dynamic IPs. If we were to block the whole address block of SBC's internet subscribers, chances are half the mongers out there would never be able to see this board again. By this virtue, the technical block won't work.
Policy: We COULD get a lawyer to write a supposedly bullet proof policy for this site, as was mentioned aove. However, the law can easily get past this by asking for a search warrant, and presenting this to the site owner, then the ISP this site runs on. If the site owner refuses, the law enforcement can demand the ISP turn off the site's Internet access. And we're in the dark.
Unforrtunately, there is no real way the site can differentiate between law enforcement and you. Which is the same reason "Yes, I am 18" buttons don't work to stop teens on public adult sites either.
[blue]===============================================
Hi guys,
Just to put this in perspective:
1. There is no club, massage parlor, escort service, streetwalker location or other place described on this website that the local police don't already know about, with or without this website. Don't be so naive as to think that local LE doesn't already know what's going on in their town.
2. No Forum Members have ever been detained, questioned or investigated as a result of information that they or others posted on this Forum.
3. No information in this Forum has ever been used in any prosecution. It's simply not qualified evidence.
4. The police will never get any information from me about any forum member, and they never will because the forum's servers are located in Frankfurt, Germany, safely outside the reach of the USA legal system.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Some added info: The police in Madison, Wisconsin admitted using this site to collect intel and to fool customers, but all the tickets / arrests they issued were based on offline activities.
[url]http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/law/13951101-1.html[/url]
A word of advice, be very careful of what type of evidence you provide LE on here. LE is using this board as a tool to collect data to use against certain high profile mongers. Intel to use out in the field. I learned that the hard way. Next time you start bragging to each other about a certain someone or something, think twice before hitting the "submit" button.
Misfit