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Admin
01-03-11, 12:06
Submitted by Email

I hate to call out my fellow defense lawyers, but I'm going to have to here.

Vice almost NEVER records the conversations on a sting. The general rule of thumb is this: if poor minority people are going to get arrested, it requires far less proof to convict them, and they are far less likely to have juice to make political problems for the police, so less effort is made at getting EVERY piece of evidence. If rich white people are being arrested, then the opposite is true, and the interactions are almost always recorded.

Where does the latter situation take place? For very wealthy escorts in upscale neighborhoods (ie. The police run a sting in a high priced hotel with an established escort that they are using who has flipped for them. Think Marion Barry or something even more upscale). The former situation is just about every street sting. Let me tell you this, in my 15 years of doing this (all as a lawyer) , I have never, ever, ever, ever seen the police record a street conversation during either a bust of prostitutes (where undercover police drive in a car and pick the girls up and arrest them) or a reverse sting on the johns (where they dress up cops in prostitute outfits and have them engage motorists). The women are frequently monitored on a one-way radio that can be overheard from a nearby car or in a motel room command post, but those conversations are simply, never recorded.

The police have made a simple calculation that any recordings would show them up to be liars in far too many situations, and they get too many convictions based on their word against the defendant to make it worthwhile to record these conversations, and they are right. The reports read like they all came from the same template, and it's simply too easy for them to proceed without recordings for them to ever bother doing them. A couple of years ago I even did a pandering (felony) trial where some guy rolled up to a cop posing as a ho on the street and tried to get her to work for him, same situation, no recording, except now it's a felony and mandatory state prison. Ouch!

You should assume that if you have any conversation with a cop posing as a prostitute, you will be arrested. These cops are there for one purpose, and one purpose only (hint. It's not to make society better, it's to make arrests and get stats). They gain nothing by having a little banter with you. They will quickly cut to the chase if you don't screw up and ask them first for something.

The law is clear, you do not have to actually have sex with them, and you do not even need to be the one doing an offering. The law is violated if you: solicit her to have sex with you ("hey, have sex / give me a blow job etc. For $50.") , offer money for sex (same type of deal) , agree to pay money for sex and do an act in furtherance (this one is the most confusing and pervasive).

Here's an example of the agreement situation: You banter with the girl outside the car, she tires of you and finally says "look, give me $50 and I'll blow you." You say sure, she says "drive to that motel over there." You drive, you're pulled over and are charged. Guess what, even if you were going to leave, they are going to argue (and often quite successfully) that you made an agreement, and that your driving in the vague general direction of the motel room constituted an act in furtherance of that agreement. One would think the act in furtherance must or should be something substantive. Like pulling down your pants or handing her money. But no, that's not what the law says. I've even seen idiot city attorneys argue that having money and being in the prostitute are, and talking to the prostitute were the acts in furtherance.

But, let's be clear, having no money is not a defense to solicitation or offering. You do not need to have the present ability to succeed to be convicted (the law is interestingly the exact same for selling or OFFERING TO SELL narcotics, so you are guilty of sales if you sell drugs, or you just offer to sell someone drugs. I've seen situations where cops want to pile up violations, they may have a hot undercover go and ask some unwitting guy for drugs, the guy says sure, I'll get you some, tries to do it, fails, and they charge him with sales, under the "offering" theory. It's bullshit, but it's "legal.")

So, the best advice I can give you as a criminal defense lawyer, if you're otherwise planning on breaking the law and getting a prostitute, is to either a) negotiate for something legal until you're assured she's not law enforcement (it's legal to hire her to take pics of her, or to masturbate while watching her, as long as it's not in a public place) , and when you're satisfied she's not law enforcement, such as when she's naked in a motel room, go all the way with her. B) have her get into your car and drive around a little bit, after doing a mutual touching, to ensure she's not a cop.

I don't know that this one is 100% failsafe, but I will say, in all my years of doing this, I've never, ever seen a female cop get in to a prospective John's car, and I've never heard of them actually letting you touch them.

Dude is going to have to just go and fight the case. I can't imagine that a judge would give him jail, but if he testifies and the jury doesn't believe him, some judges will give him jail just to punish him for lying on the stand. Get a good lawyer, or make sure you have a good public defender (most of them are actually very good) and don't give up quickly. They try to wear you down with court appearances and threats. Don't give in, you can possibly get it reduced, if not dismissed.

MeyghaMann
04-08-18, 22:57
Submitted by Email

I hate to call out my fellow defense lawyers, but I'm going to have to here.

Vice almost NEVER records the conversations on a sting. The general rule of thumb is this: if poor minority people are going to get arrested, it requires far less proof to convict them, and they are far less likely to have juice to make political problems for the police, so less effort is made at getting EVERY piece of evidence. If rich white people are being arrested, then the opposite is true, and the interactions are almost always recorded.

Where does the latter situation take place? For very wealthy escorts in upscale neighborhoods (ie. The police run a sting in a high priced hotel with an established escort that they are using who has flipped for them. Think Marion Barry or something even more upscale). The former situation is just about every street sting. Let me tell you this, in my 15 years of doing this (all as a lawyer) , I have never, ever, ever, ever seen the police record a street conversation during either a bust of prostitutes (where undercover police drive in a car and pick the girls up and arrest them) or a reverse sting on the johns (where they dress up cops in prostitute outfits and have them engage motorists). The women are frequently monitored on a one-way radio that can be overheard from a nearby car or in a motel room command post, but those conversations are simply, never recorded.

The police have made a simple calculation that any recordings would show them up to be liars in far too many situations, and they get too many convictions based on their word against the defendant to make it worthwhile to record these conversations, and they are right. The reports read like they all came from the same template, and it's simply too easy for them to proceed without recordings for them to ever bother doing them. A couple of years ago I even did a pandering (felony) trial where some guy rolled up to a cop posing as a ho on the street and tried to get her to work for him, same situation, no recording, except now it's a felony and mandatory state prison. Ouch!

You should assume that if you have any conversation with a cop posing as a prostitute, you will be arrested. These cops are there for one purpose, and one purpose only (hint. It's not to make society better, it's to make arrests and get stats). They gain nothing by having a little banter with you. They will quickly cut to the chase if you don't screw up and ask them first for something.

The law is clear, you do not have to actually have sex with them, and you do not even need to be the one doing an offering. The law is violated if you: solicit her to have sex with you ("hey, have sex / give me a blow job etc. For $50.") , offer money for sex (same type of deal) , agree to pay money for sex and do an act in furtherance (this one is the most confusing and pervasive).

Here's an example of the agreement situation: You banter with the girl outside the car, she tires of you and finally says "look, give me $50 and I'll blow you." You say sure, she says "drive to that motel over there." You drive, you're pulled over and are charged. Guess what, even if you were going to leave, they are going to argue (and often quite successfully) that you made an agreement, and that your driving in the vague general direction of the motel room constituted an act in furtherance of that agreement. One would think the act in furtherance must or should be something substantive. Like pulling down your pants or handing her money. But no, that's not what the law says. I've even seen idiot city attorneys argue that having money and being in the prostitute are, and talking to the prostitute were the acts in furtherance.

But, let's be clear, having no money is not a defense to solicitation or offering. You do not need to have the present ability to succeed to be convicted (the law is interestingly the exact same for selling or OFFERING TO SELL narcotics, so you are guilty of sales if you sell drugs, or you just offer to sell someone drugs. I've seen situations where cops want to pile up violations, they may have a hot undercover go and ask some unwitting guy for drugs, the guy says sure, I'll get you some, tries to do it, fails, and they charge him with sales, under the "offering" theory. It's bullshit, but it's "legal.")

So, the best advice I can give you as a criminal defense lawyer, if you're otherwise planning on breaking the law and getting a prostitute, is to either a) negotiate for something legal until you're assured she's not law enforcement (it's legal to hire her to take pics of her, or to masturbate while watching her, as long as it's not in a public place) , and when you're satisfied she's not law enforcement, such as when she's naked in a motel room, go all the way with her. B) have her get into your car and drive around a little bit, after doing a mutual touching, to ensure she's not a cop.

I don't know that this one is 100% failsafe, but I will say, in all my years of doing this, I've never, ever seen a female cop get in to a prospective John's car, and I've never heard of them actually letting you touch them.

Dude is going to have to just go and fight the case. I can't imagine that a judge would give him jail, but if he testifies and the jury doesn't believe him, some judges will give him jail just to punish him for lying on the stand. Get a good lawyer, or make sure you have a good public defender (most of them are actually very good) and don't give up quickly. They try to wear you down with court appearances and threats. Don't give in, you can possibly get it reduced, if not dismissed.Sounds like you know what your talking about.