The History of an Illegal Monopoly [Archive]

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J Schwanger

06-08-05, 03:59

J Schwanger

06-12-05, 01:51

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54736-2004Aug10_3.html:

"...J___ grew up in Syracuse, N.Y., the oldest of three daughters raised by a former U.S. soldier and his Korean-born wife. Her parents fought a lot, remembers J___, who was in junior high when they divorced. Her mother moved out, leaving the girls to live with their father. They started leading largely separate lives."

....the mother set up shop in the Upstate AMP Industry, the daughter as an independant contractor.

Bob Mantis

06-14-05, 23:45

Hello all,

I'm starting this thread to explore the history of the AMP. The AMP concept is beginning to rival the franchise success of fast foot restaurants. It's almost as if you can't go to a state that doesn't have an AMP (somewhere). Its story must be told.

I'd be interested in you opinions on the following topics:

--When did the modern AMP start? Although this board goes back a decade, surely someone could know when the AMP's first originated.

--Where did they start? Probably first in cities with large Asian populations such as SF and NYC. But in the last decade they've become a truly nationwide phenomenon. Did this happen all at once, or were there a few cities from which individual AMP firms branched out?

--Why do the Koreans dominate this industry? Could it be due to 1) ease of travel visas from SK 2) continued military presence and war wives 3) the economic miracle of SK in the last 40 years which might've left behind rural and/or uneducated SK women. Japan and to a lesser extent the Philipines fit that description, but they don't dominate this trade in the way the koreans do. Will chinese-run AMP's soon create a better ( and cheaper) model and overtake the K-AMP?

--Are there a few families controlling the AMP's? If so, does this meet the standard for an example of the economic system of an oligopoly? Is this a chaebol?

--How often is the talent moved to other AMP's
And are they shiipped only to localites within the family network?

--What determines the price structure? Is it Real Demand? Or the escort market? Has the price been resistant to price inflation?

--Does the recent crackdown of AMP's in Nashville, TN and Louisville, Ky predict the beginning of the end for the AMP label? Or are these crackdowns just due to overwhelming community support in these metros?

I'd appreciate all your thoughts on this pressing issue.

Thanks,

J SchwangerHi,

I asked the same basic question about why Koreans seem to run the AMPs. You can see what I wrote on the Pasadena Board on 5/30/05

My curiosity led me to ask one of my favorite Koreans about why the Koreans seem to dominate the MPs. She says that Koreans are very enterprising and in LA, at least, run lots of small businesses, including MPs. As to why so many Korean women run MPs instead of other businesses, she said, of course it's the money. And, there is the history. Korea was colonized by the Japanese for many decades preceding and during WWII, during which a large population of women were used as sex slaves, which meant that they could never marry, and they become stuck in a life of sexual servitude. After that war, there was the Korean war, and after that many American military bases were set up, which become the focus for continued sex trade. But, not just Americans, also the Korean men themselves would visit the women. Something like 50% of married men would visit prostitutes, so it was culturally almost institutionalized. Many of the women, seeking a better life in the US, having no other marketable skill or advanced education, would open MPs in the US. And after the southeast Asian economic crash of 1997, many Korean women became unemployed. Women were always treated as inferior to men in the workplace. Many women then try to get to the US, and, again, short of advanced education or other marketable skills, they turned to MPs as a way to make money, fast. Apparently 5 years ago, an MP girl could make almost $20k a month. Now, because so many girls work at MPs in LA, most girls are allowed to work only two to three days per week per MP, so they can't earn as much. Many girls have left LA to spread the trade to other cities across the US. That's why the "best" MPs in many cities are Korean, if my friend is right.There were quite a number of people who responded, including tsboy69 on 6/1/05, Bruce Lee Roy on 6/1/05, Amper on 6/5/05, and James D 2004 on 6/7/05. Check out the posts.

If you have any more insight, you can PM me or email me. I am very interested in this topic. My girlfriend used to work at an AMP, and she is Korean.

J Schwanger

06-16-05, 04:03

Bob,

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Those were some interesting posts and I'll try to reproduce them here.

I'd like to get a sense of where this industry started and where it's heading.

I think it's safe to say that South Korea will soon be among (if it isn't already) the first world nations, and as this happens there will be less K-AMP's on our shores. Just like finding a japanese girl in an AMP is exceedingly rare now.

Although I've never been to HI, tsboy69's observation that AMP's switched from japanese-dominated to korean-dominated tells a lot about where they started. There must've been some point in the 80's where the AMP's moved from Hawai'i to the mainland.

Something else that I've noticed is that you can sometimes find AMP's in areas that few people would want to live in but that happen to have casinos. Two cases in point are Lawrenceburg and Gary IN. Not quite sure if this proximity to casinos is in preference to the clientele or the staff. However, I do think there must be less of a cultural aversion to gambling in east asian cultures. I've seen reports on this board that many of the ladies spend their earnings in the casinos. Perhaps the PR Chinese who increasingly frequent Las Vegas in preference to Macau flush with cash from their country's booming economy prefer the services of their paisan and so this is why LV is becoming more chinese-dominated.

I've been to bars in ATL and SD (which have moderate-size Korean populations) and seen what are similar to the karaoke bars thoughout Asia. In these bars the patron pays upwards from $200 for a bottle of brandy and the accompaniment of a young lady in song. I assume they have these same kinds of places in Koreatown in LA. I've heard that there are also bars in LA (similar to what is in Korea) where a group of men sit one place, a group of women in another, and then the men "pay" a host to "introduce" them to the women. This is certainly different than what the AMP offers and is unlike anything else you find in the west. The previous discussion mentioned the long-standing tradition of prostitution in Korea starting with the japanese colonization. But I wonder which one of these "outlets" was affected or created by the foreign presence in Korea. In other words, which is older: this form of matchmaking or the massage parlor?

I can only guess at how they arrived at this AMP format. Since a massage is a somewhat legitimate enterprise and doesn't call as much attention to itself, this might explain their expansion. Also, a karoke bar would eat into the bottom line with a liquor license and "muscular help." Although some AMP's try to set up fronts as tanning salons or chiropractics, these aren't as dominant as the massage-and-possibly-shower-or-sauna AMP.

J Schwanger

06-16-05, 04:12

Well, you're mostly right, regarding Koreans in the sex trade. The sex trade shifted from Japanese in the late 70's and into the 1980's to Koreans. Economically, Japanese women didn't have to get into the business to get places, especially with the growth of the demographic of over 25 single/live with parents women (and men).

Also, prostitution is deep into most every culture to some extent. Prostitution in the form of "courtesans" is part of Korean cultural history. Heck, even one of their Korean folktales (Chunhyang) has a courtesan (gisaeng) as a main player. With prostitution, there is usually a stratification of what is offered and who is offering it, obviously, and this is the case with Korean history as it is with any country's history.

RLD (Red Light Districts) are not a modern invention. If anything, technology applied to transportation and lifestyle conveniences (A/C, refrigeration, indoor plumbing, heating, etc) make prostitution MORE convenient.

What happened to Korean women (as well as a smaller number of Chinese and filipino) is that they were literally taken from their homes or off their street and pressed into service as prostitutes with NO renumeration, let alone consent. The alternative to serving was sex slavery/repeated raping followed by a painful death.

As you said, the aftermath was that an entire generation of women were lost to mainstream life in Korea. With the class based bias for higher education, former "comfort women" were left with no recourse.

Following WWII, Korean as well as many other asian women found husbands in American soldiers of the occupation if they were lucky. Those who weren't, found themselves in perpetual prostitution. They'd be lucky to save enough money to leave and start a small business. As they age, they get pushed down the ranks of prostitutes in terms of desirability.

This brings us to today. What you get in terms of Korean women in KAMP/etc locations is actually lower than the "B" or even "C" standard in Korea. The "A" standard stay in Korea, and usually are able to save enough money to leave the business before dropping down the desirability scale. Some women enter into prostitution voluntarily and pay only a cut for "rent" and laundry/utility fees (bribes too). Others are forced into prostitution to pay back loans they foolishly entered into to pay off huge credit card loans or possibly to get money to help family, etc. The reason that the loan system behind prostitution is considered evil in Korea had more to do with the exorbiant interest rates as well as high fee/penalty rates.

What you get in America are the women who have gone down the desirability scale or may have some family problems with working in Korea, or may have even entered into work AFTER coming to the states. Also, in the KAMPs where the women are older and most mongers think the women are "30's or late 20's", the women are usually older by 10 to 20 years.

I know for a fact that some places I've been to that only have women in their 40's (to early 50's!) have had some post that the women were in their mid 30's. It's a skill to discern an asian women's age, but it's not impossible. Korean women from Korea, typically stay skinny until their mid 30's. After that, they'll be "thick" compared to the typical Korean woman, but still "toned" or "in shape" compared to their American counterpart.

What you're starting to see in the form of the CAMP and CAAMP is that Chinese women are taking over the business. Normally, this would also include the exit of Korean women, but the South Korean govt is clamping down on the RLD system in Korea. So that means the "A" girls will probably wind up in places like Hong Kong and Japan, and more "B" or possibly "A" girls will start showing up in the USA.

I fear for the KAMP/AMP scene if there are no more Koreans involved. You only seem to get good service from Chinese women in upscale "Spa" locations in HK and China.

Learn the culture (and if you can the language) and you will get farther/better treatment with a masseuse. Sure, you're paying for a service, but a little seduction doesn't hurt.Previous contribution on the Pasadena board. Bruce Lee Roy reckons that we in the US get "mature talent".

J Schwanger

06-16-05, 04:24

Bob Mantis

06-17-05, 02:03

There was a whole section with many articles in July of 2004 in the Louisville Courier-Journal about a Federal sting on AMP's in the Midwest and specifically Louisville. The series was bold in that it showed full color pictures of the exteriors 20 or so AMP's in Louisville and their addresses (free advertising!) There was an article about a man who claimed he was "addicted to AMP's" and spent himself into the poorhouse on them. One of the articles about the busts gave names of the proprietors which were Korean--but they also mentioned a courier with a Vietnamese name who ran cash between establishments in Toledo, OH and Louisville, KY. It would seem there might be some cooperation between K-AMP's and perhaps V-AMP's. Most of the V-AMP's I've seen were in the gulf coast (new orleans) and San Jose--both areas with large Vietnamese populations. If anyone saw this series of articles or can comment, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

J SchwangerI couldn't connect to the Washington Post article that you provided the link to below. If you have it as a pdf, could you let me know by PM, and I'll send you my email address.

Another good resource, if you want to know more about sex in Korea is the South Korea web pages on the www.worldsexguide.info site. I have found many interesting discussiong there on the same topic, or nearly. Also there are many articles cited from the English-language Korean newspapers. Very interesting reading.

I also found interesting a web page on the link between the 1997 SE Asia financial crash and sex trafficking in S. Korea and other parts of SE Asia. Very interesting also. I'll see if I can find it. I wonder when exactly AMPs changed from mostly Japanese to mostly Korean. Was it before or after 1997? Before 1997, I was living in Europe, so I don't know what the US AMPs were like.

How can I link to the articles that you mention above?

Why are you so interested in this topic? Are you an academic?

J Schwanger

06-18-05, 03:01

Groundbreaking journalism on AMP's in Louisville, KY

http://www.courier-journal.com/cjextra/2004projects/massage/

Note: This link WILL work.

Bob Mantis

06-20-05, 21:19

Groundbreaking journalism on AMP's in Louisville, KY

http://www.courier-journal.com/cjextra/2004projects/massage/

Note: This link WILL work.Excellent read!

Frank Booth

06-22-05, 10:58

"Both White and Jefferson County Attorney Irv Maze stressed in interviews that any sexual contact with a prostitute is unnecessary, could irreparably harm a case and damages the reputation of the police department."

Should change his quote to:

'any sexual contact with a prostitute while on duty, is unnecessary...'

Bob Mantis

06-22-05, 18:08

http://www.courier-journal.com/cjextra/2004projects/massage/stories/p1_policeconduct.html

J Schwanger

06-25-05, 14:34

Watch out for the falling cabbage leaves.

South Korean baseball league bans use of cabbage leaves as coolant

**SEOUL (AP) - South Korea's love for the cabbage that makes up its national dish, kimchi, apparently doesn't extend to the baseball field.

The Korea Baseball Organization has ruled that wearing cabbage leaves inside a baseball cap constitutes an "alien material" that may disrupt a game and is prohibited, the organization said in a statement Tuesday.

The decision came after Doosan Bears pitcher Park Myung-hwan's cap fell off twice in a game last Sunday, revealing frozen cabbage leaves inside used to keep his head cool. No measures were taken at the time.

"What will we do if another team argues that because the cabbage leaf fell just as the pitcher was pitching, the batter got confused?" league rules committee chair Heo Koo-youn said, according to South Korea's Yonhap News Agency.

Park said he had planned to give up his unusual cooling agent before the decision.

"I wasn't planning to use cabbage any longer regardless of the decision of the rules committee, so I don't care," he told Yonhap.
*******************************************************
__Korea bans baseball cabbage pitch__

South Korea's baseball authorities have banned a star pitcher from wearing frozen cabbage leaves in his cap to keep cool during games.

The Korean Baseball Association met in special session after cabbage leaves twice fell from Park Myung-Hwan's cap live on television.

After two hours, the committee ruled that cabbage was a "foreign substance" and therefore banned from the field.

Players may now only wear cabbage by presenting a doctor's note in advance.

Mr Park, who plays for Doosan, is currently ranked as the second-best pitcher in the eight-team South Korean baseball league.

He began keeping cabbage leaves in his cap last year after hearing that US baseball legend Babe Ruth used them to keep cool on the field.

"In common sense, it is difficult to consider that wearing a cabbage leaf will affect pitches," a KBO spokesman said.

"But since it has become a controversy, we decided to set a limit on the boundaries of foreign substances."

Mr Park said he was glad he helped to clarify a rule, but that he was planning to stop using cabbage anyway.

J Schwanger

07-02-05, 14:03

Has this affected anyone's service?

*************************************************
Alleged sex-trade ring broken up in Bay Area
Police say Koreans in massage parlors were smuggled in

Jaxon Van Derbeken, Ryan Kim SF Chronicle

Saturday, July 2, 2005

A force of 400 federal and local law officers raided 11 suspected brothels and arrested 27 suspects in what was described as a major Bay Area sex trafficking operation that preyed on Korean women brought into the country illegally, authorities said Friday.

In a series of searches begun Thursday, investigators said they found more than 100 women working as prostitutes at 10 San Francisco massage parlors and one in Emeryville.

At the same time in Southern California, local and federal agents conducted a similar operation that resulted in 18 arrests of people believed to be involved in smuggling hundreds of South Korean women into the United States to work as prostitutes. Agents there also took 46 women into custody when they were found working in suspected brothels in Santa Monica, the Koreatown area of Los Angeles and Redondo Beach.

The San Francisco operation, officials said, was allegedly run by a 37- year-old Pleasant Hill man, Young Joon Yang, who was arrested at a home in Beverly Hills. An indictment charges Yang with conspiracy to harbor aliens, sex trafficking, conspiracy to launder money and transporting women across interstate lines to engage in prostitution.

The San Francisco sex trade ring had set up an elaborate operation that used a travel agency in the city to entice and bring in young women from Korea and a cab company to move them around, investigators said.

In addition to the massage parlors, authorities said they searched about 40 other locations Thursday and seized more than $2 million in cash, three ATM machines and several vehicles. They called it "Operation Gilded Cage."

The massage parlors were spread out around San Francisco, from North Beach to the Tenderloin to the Excelsior district. The establishments, all closed Friday, were largely nondescript and often in older buildings. Most had buzzers to let clients in.

U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan said the nine-month investigation was aimed at halting "the horrific, demeaning and oftentimes brutal" practice of smuggling people into the country for the sex trade.

Chuck DeMore, head of investigations for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in San Francisco, said, "I went to five of these establishments and saw 60 to 70 of these women. What I saw really tugs at your heart."

In Southern California, as in San Francisco, prostitutes were allegedly managed by an underground network of Korean "taxi" services that coordinated the prostitutes' daily schedules and worked with the brothel operators.

"We basically had two similar alien smuggling operations," said Thom Mrozek, spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles. Both recruited women in Korea, and both brought them here to work as prostitutes, he said. "Some of the ringleaders knew each other, and they were communicating with each other. There's evidence they were essentially sharing girls with each other."

Authorities in San Francisco said 24 of the 29 suspects listed in an indictment have been arrested. Three others, who were not indicted, also were arrested during the sweep.

Of the five indicted suspects still being sought, authorities said two are considered major figures in the ring -- Wu Sang Nah, also known as Kang Nah, and Sung Yong Kim, 39, also known as Nam Kim.

Nah and Kim are charged with enticing Korean women to the United States by fraud and deceit. Documents alleged that they helped smuggle two women who ultimately came to work at King's Massage in San Francisco to pay off their smuggling fee.

The two unidentified women allegedly were coerced into working as prostitutes at King's between May and August 2004, according to the indictment. The investigation began when the women came forward voluntarily in August of last year.

Authorities believe the ring targeted women from the impoverished areas of South Korea, offering them jobs as waitresses and bar hostesses in America and charging them fees ranging from $10,000 to $15,000.

About 102 women were being held in the San Francisco/Emeryville case and were being interviewed at an undisclosed location, investigators said.

Yang allegedly used the travel agency, YJY Travel and Tour at 3001 Geary Blvd., and a cab company, Yang's Taxi, to help run the operation. The cabs were used to pick up and drop off women from the San Francisco and Oakland airports and move them among brothels in the city, according to the indictment.

The operation also arranged to fly prostitutes to work in Las Vegas, Dallas, New York and Boston.

Authorities are seeking Fred A. Frazier, 50, of Fairfield after he was indicted on the charge of conspiring to harbor aliens. He allegedly ran the King's Massage brothel on Jessie Street -- which has since changed hands. Ahdi M. Nashashibi, 63, of San Francisco owned the building at the time and has also been charged in the conspiracy.

King's had been a major outpost in the ring, officials said, and many of the prostitutes would arrive there first before being moved to other establishments.

Federal agents timed their raids around 5 p.m. to 6 p.m. Thursday, descending in large numbers on the targeted massage parlors. One neighbor of the Empire Health Club on O'Farrell Street said the raid there involved more than two dozen agents.

"I thought they were going after Osama bin Laden," said the neighbor, who declined to give his name for fear of retaliation. "There were many people running at full speed. I thought there was a terrorist attack."

Agents also raided the Sun Spa on Geary Boulevard. They later removed about half a dozen young women and two other suspects, said a nearby business owner, who also asked not to be named for fear of retribution.

"They were all in handcuffs," the man said. "The girls were young, about 20-25 years old, not older than that. Some of them were beautiful."

The raids also targeted Acucare Oriental Spa in Emeryville. Neighbors there said as many as 40 FBI agents raided the business in an old brick building.

Neighbors said they did not notice suspicious activity before the raid.

"I never see anybody going in there except guys. Most spas, I think, women go to," said Ed Marsh, owner of Marsh Interiors, across the street from the spa, which recently installed security cameras and put up a cheerful yellow and red canopy and sign advertising "sauna Jacuzzi" and "private bath" and listing its hours from 12 p.m. to 12 a.m.

"I thought it was definitely an adult-oriented establishment," said Geoff, who manages a carpentry firm in the same building as the spa and declined to give his last name. He said FBI agents came into his business Thursday to make sure there wasn't a tunnel into the spa.

Mechanic Carlos Lopez, who works next door to the spa at Performance Auto, said he never suspected a thing.

"It looks like a normal business," he said. "I'm surprised something like this could happen next door. It's crazy."
***********************************************
Major smuggling, prostitution rings uncovered in California

By TERENCE CHEA
Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Law enforcement agents in the San Francisco Bay area and Southern California arrested more than 40 people for allegedly conspiring to smuggle South Korean women into the country to work as prostitutes at massage parlors and other businesses, authorities said Friday.

In the Bay Area, about 400 federal, state and local agents searched some 50 brothels, homes and businesses and arrested 27 suspects on Thursday night, following a nine-month investigation called "Operation Gilded Cage," said U.S. Attorney Kevin V. Ryan.

About 100 women, mostly South Korean nationals, were taken from the raided properties to an undisclosed location where they were being cared for and interviewed by authorities, Ryan said.

"We're dealing with a very sophisticated, somewhat underground organization here," Ryan said at a news conference. "This investigation is aimed at stopping the horrific, demeaning and oftentimes brutal practice of smuggling and trafficking human beings into the U.S. for illicit purposes."

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In a separate enforcement action Thursday night in Southern California, about 550 agents and officers arrested 18 people who were allegedly involved in a smuggling scheme believed to have brought hundreds of South Korean women to work as prostitutes, said U.S. Attorney Debra Wong Yang.

"This type of criminal organization exploits the hopes and dreams of immigrants," Yang said.

More than three dozen search warrants were served in Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Anaheim and other cities. Twenty-three co-conspirators, including five who remain at large, face charges that include harboring and transporting illegal aliens for prostitution.

The investigation centered on a group called the Jung Organization that allegedly recruited prospective prostitutes in South Korea and smuggled them into the U.S. through Mexico or Canada, sometimes on illegally obtained visas, according to the affidavit.

Some of the women allegedly paid $16,000 each to be smuggled and were expected to repay their debts by working as prostitutes at brothels that were housed in massage parlors, spas, acupuncture clinics and other businesses.

Thursday night's crackdown "dismantled one of the largest smuggling and prostitution rings ever uncovered in Southern California," said Marcy Forman, who heads the Office of Investigations at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Authorities said the Bay Area and Southern California enforcement actions were coordinated but wouldn't say how they were related.

In Northern California, 29 people, including 24 of the suspects arrested, face federal charges that include sex trafficking, harboring illegal aliens, money laundering and transporting women across state lines to engage in prostitution, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Francisco.

The indictments, unsealed Friday, describe a sophisticated criminal network in which the co-conspirators recruited young women, arranged for them to be flown from Korea to Canada and then smuggled them illegally into the United States. They often passed through Virginia and Los Angeles before arriving in the Bay Area, according to the court documents.

The co-conspirators allegedly ran a travel agency that purchased plane tickets and an underground taxi service to transport the women to 11 Bay Area massage parlors - 10 in San Francisco and one across the bay in Emeryville - that operated as brothels, where the women were ordered to work as prostitutes to pay off their trafficking debts.

Other co-conspirators allegedly provided the women with room and board, while others illegally transferred funds between the U.S. and Korea in ways intended to disguise the money's source.

During Thursday night's raids, authorities confiscated $2 million in cash as well as three ATM machines, which authorities were analyzing. Massage parlor clients were interviewed, but none were arrested, authorities said.

The defendants, who were scheduled to appear in federal court in San Francisco and Los Angeles Friday, could not be reached for comment, and it was unclear whether they had attorneys.

Brad Scholzman, Acting Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, said the arrests reflect "the Bush administration's unflagging effort to route out the traffic in human beings - a morally repugnant and truly evil crime."
********************************************************

L.A. and Bay Area groups are suspected of smuggling hundreds of South Korean women.

By David Rosenzweig and K. Connie Kang LA Times

Two criminal syndicates suspected of smuggling hundreds of South Korean women into the United States to work at brothels in the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas have been broken up with the arrest of 45 people, including the ringleaders, federal authorities announced Friday.

In raids on massage parlors, chiropractic offices and apartments at both ends of the state, federal agents and local law enforcement officers took into custody nearly 150 suspected prostitutes as material witnesses.

U.S. Atty. Debra Wong Yang said there was no firm evidence that the women were coerced into working as prostitutes, although some were found to have been sexually abused.

Yang said federal agents were in the process of interviewing the women to learn how they got here and how they were treated.

"This type of criminal organization exploits the hopes and dreams of immigrants," the Los Angeles federal prosecutor said.

Law enforcement officials said the two networks operated independently, although they sometimes traded prostitutes.

The Los Angeles organization was headquartered in Koreatown, home of the largest Korean population outside Asia. Koreatown community leaders reacted to the arrests with surprise and shame.

"This is so embarrassing," said Kenny Shin, president of the Korean American Chamber of Commerce. Shin said he feared that notoriety would hurt Koreatown businesses that are finally recovering from the effects of the 1992 Los Angeles riots.

The Southern California investigation was launched two years ago by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation division and the Los Angeles County sheriff's vice squad.

Using court-authorized wiretaps and undercover informants, investigators said, they were able to track the activities of the organization's leaders for months.

Among the 18 people arrested in Southern California late Thursday and early Friday on prostitution-related conspiracy charges was the alleged ringleader, Young Joon Jung, about 40, a resident of Koreatown. Investigators also seized more than $1 million.

Yang said the Jung organization was a "top to bottom" criminal enterprise. The organization smuggled women into the United States via Canada and Mexico, usually after they agreed to pay as much as $16,000 from their earnings as prostitutes, she said.

The women were then turned over to an underground network of Korean "taxi" services that assigned and transported them each day to various brothels. Authorities said the brothels operated under the guise of being massage parlors, chiropractic clinics and businesses offering aromatherapy, acupressure, acupuncture and the like.

According to an affidavit, some of those brothels paid chiropractors $600 to $1,500 a month to use their licenses.

Koreatown businesspeople Friday expressed surprise that health services were involved, even though only a few of the area's many chiropractors and acupuncturists were implicated. Across the street from one Koreatown establishment raided by investigators, clothing store owner Jong Soon Kang said Friday she could hardly believe that people would pay to lease professional licenses to engage in prostitution.

"I have heard about things like that happening in some massage parlors," she said. "But medical offices? This is very, very serious."

"I just hope this will not harm the Korean community's reputation," she said. "Most Korean immigrants are like me — we work hard and are good citizens. I hope the mainstream will understand that and not think badly of all of us."

The suspected brothels were not limited to Koreatown. Some were located in the San Fernando Valley, South Gate, Santa Monica, Redondo Beach and Anaheim, the affidavit said.

The taxi services, which allegedly were run by members and associates of Jung's organization, occasionally sent the women to work at brothels in Texas, Colorado and Northern California, according to the affidavit.

In one wiretapped conversation recorded in April, one of Jung's associates was overheard complaining about the arrest of 16 women by U.S. Border Patrol officers as they were being taken across the Canadian border in a recreational vehicle rented in El Monte.

Another alleged ring member lamented a crackdown by Mexican officials in Mexicali, saying the police there were arresting everyone who looked Korean. He said he found a way around the problem by sending the women to Tijuana, where he claimed to have a friendly Mexican immigration officer on his payroll.

In the San Francisco-area roundup, about 400 federal and local officers arrested 27 suspects. Five others charged in a grand jury indictment were still at large. The raid, dubbed Operation Gilded Cage, netted $2 million in cash.

By morning, more than 100 Korean women detained at 11 separate massage parlors had been taken to an undisclosed location. They appeared to be about 20 to 27 years old. Victim assistance workers were living among them in an effort to coax their cooperation, and more than half a dozen local social service and legal groups dispatched aid.

The nine-month Northern California investigation was hailed as a coordinated effort, involving the U.S. attorney's office, the U.S. Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division, the FBI, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the San Francisco Police Department, the Internal Revenue Service and the State Department's Diplomatic Security Service.

Officials said the operation successfully dismantled a "large criminal organization" headed by Young Joon Yang, 37, of Pleasant Hill, Calif.

Brad Schlozman, acting assistant attorney general for civil rights, said the still-unfolding investigation appeared to be "one of our biggest" nationwide. Officials said the San Francisco investigation unraveled a "sophisticated criminal enterprise" and therefore was a more serious case than the one brought in Los Angeles.

According to the indictment, two defendants -- Wu Sang Nah and Sung Yong Kim -- are believed to have smuggled at least two female Korean nationals across the U.S. border from Canada. The women were then taken to Virginia, Los Angeles and eventually San Francisco to work as prostitutes.

The indictment alleges that Young Joon Yang operated a taxi service and travel agency dedicated to transporting those two women as well as many others to and from brothels throughout San Francisco as well as to other prostitution engagements in Las Vegas and other cities.

Many of those arrested worked as drivers or support staff for Young Joon Yang. The more than two dozen men and women indicted face charges of conspiring to bring in and harbor aliens, sex trafficking, money laundering conspiracy, and transporting women in interstate commerce to engage in prostitution.

The indictment does not specify whether the women were working off smuggling debts or engaging in prostitution against their will. Advocates said 20% to 30% of women in such situations typically are coerced into prostitution and that the rest are working as prostitutes voluntarily.

Kevin Ryan, U.S. attorney in San Francisco, said information about the circumstances of their prostitution will probably emerge in the coming days.

"There's a belief that San Francisco is a major player in human trafficking," he said. "It's a gateway to the Pacific, and this is a city where many of the women are brought."

Friday afternoon, several dozen shocked family members and friends crowded into a federal courtroom to await the first court appearances of the detained, as defense attorneys milled about to pair with potential clients.

"It's a very broad sweep," San Jose criminal-defense attorney Tak Chang said of the raids. "I suspect some of these people will be very minor players -- drivers and receptionists. This might be a tactic to get the bigger fish."
********************************************************
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 1, 2005 US Attorney's Office

23 CHARGED FOR ROLES IN KOREAN HUMAN SMUGGLING SCHEME THAT BROUGHT PROSTITUTES INTO THE UNITED STATES
Women were allegedly smuggled to work at brothels in L.A. and Bay Area

Los Angeles, CA - Federal and state authorities have arrested 18 persons during a series of overnight enforcement actions that targeted a sophisticated human smuggling scheme believed to have brought hundreds of South Korean women into the United States to work as prostitutes.

A criminal complaint filed in Los Angeles yesterday and unsealed this morning charges a total of 23 defendants with conspiracy. Five of the defendants are fugitives being sought by federal authorities. The complaint alleges three objects to the conspiracy: harboring illegal aliens for an immoral purpose (prostitution); harboring and transporting illegal aliens; and violating the Travel Act, a federal statute that prohibits moving people across state lines for illegal sexual purposes, such as prostitution.

In addition to the criminal arrests, federal agents took into custody 46 women who were working at brothels that were shut down last night. Agents are interviewing the women to learn more about the circumstances surrounding how they came here and how they were treated once they arrived.

The initial results of the investigation were announced at a news conference in Los Angeles by United States Attorney Debra Wong Yang; Marcy Forman, Director of the Office of Investigations for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE); Michael Kochmanski, Special Agent-in-Charge of IRS-Criminal Investigation Division; and Robert Osborne, Commander of the Detective Division of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

"This type of criminal organization exploits the hopes and dreams of immigrants," said United States Attorney Debra Wong Yang. "In this case, they exploited women, some of whom apparently suffered injuries as a result of their work. My office works very hard to eliminate these types of exploitation and to secure punishment for those who engage in them, seeking to profit at the expense of others."

The investigation focused on a criminal organization dubbed the Jung Organization that allegedly smuggled South Korean women into the United States and then provided the women to brothel operators. The brothels were concealed behind businesses that purported to be massage parlors and "out-call service" operations. The prostitutes were allegedly managed by an underground network of Korean "taxi" services operated by members and associates of the Jung Organization. The "taxi" services coordinated the prostitutes' daily schedules and worked hand-in-hand with the brothel operators.

The affidavit alleges that organization ringleaders Young Joon Jung and Ho Kyung Kim oversaw efforts to recruit prospective prostitutes in South Korea and then arranged for them to be brought to the United States. Some of the women were smuggled into the country across the Mexican and Canadian borders. Others traveled to the United States on fraudulently obtained visitors' visas. The women allegedly promised to pay up to $16,000 each to be smuggled into the country. Once they arrived, the women were expected to work as prostitutes, with a portion of their earnings going to repay their smuggling debts. As part of the scheme, some of the women were allegedly transported to Northern California, Colorado and Texas to work as prostitutes.

Marcy Forman, Director of the Office of Investigations for ICE, stated: "Last night, ICE special agents working in partnership with IRS investigators and local law enforcement dismantled one of the largest human smuggling and prostitution rings ever uncovered in Southern California. Not only are we targeting the people affiliated with these violent criminal networks, but we're going after the money that supports their criminal activities."

Michael Kochmanski, the Special Agent in Charge of the Los Angeles Field Office of IRS-Criminal Investigation Division stated: "The action yesterday shows the greater good that occurs when federal, state and local law enforcement agencies work together towards a common goal. Dismantling criminal organizations and halting the monetary gain from their illegal activities is a priority for IRS-Criminal Investigation."

A criminal complaint contains allegations that a defendant has committed a crime. Every defendant is presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

The defendants arrested on the criminal complaint are expected to make their initial appearances this afternoon in United States District Court in Los Angeles.

In conjunction with the arrests last night, federal agents executed search warrants at 28 locations across the greater Los Angeles area. The targeted sites included suspected brothels and so-called human smuggling "drop houses." Several local law enforcement agencies participated in last night's operation, including the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, the Santa Monica Police Department, the Redondo Beach Police Department, and the Anaheim Police Department.

The brothels themselves were housed in a variety of businesses, including chiropractic offices, acupuncture clinics, spas and massage parlors. During last night's searches, investigators seized nearly $300,000 in cash and more than $650,000 in bank accounts. Investigators have located and expect to seize this afternoon another $800,000 located in bank accounts.

In addition to the criminal arrests and the prostitutes taken into custody, investigators took two men into custody on immigration violations. There were also four children found, who are in the custody of the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services.

The investigation was conducted by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, IRS-Criminal Investigation Division and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

Authorities in San Francisco this morning announced a related case in which 29 people were indicted on charges of conspiracy to bring in and harbor aliens, money laundering conspiracy, conspiracy to transport female Korean nationals across state lines with intent to engage in prostitution, and conspiracy to use interstate communications by phone to engage in unlawful activity. Two defendants in San Francisco were charged with sex trafficking for knowingly using force, fraud or coercion to cause two women to engage in a commercial sex act. Two of the defendants named in the San Francisco case were taken into custody in Southern California.
*****************************************************
Oakland Tribune

Brothel bust leads to charges for 29
FROM STAFF WRITER AND WIRE REPORTS

Twenty-nine people have been charged in federal court with participating in a large human-trafficking ring that allegedly transported young women from Korea to San Francisco for coerced prostitution, U.S. prosecutors announced Friday.

U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan said 100 women were removed Thursday from 10 alleged brothels inside massage parlors and other locations in San Francisco, as well as one alleged brothel in Emeryville.

The women are being cared for in an undisclosed spot and receiving health care while being questioned.

A six-count indictment was issued by a federal grand jury in San Francisco last week and unsealed Friday following the arrests of 24 of the defendants in raids of 50 Bay Area locations Thursday.

"This investigation is aimed at stopping the horrific, demeaning and oftentimes brutal practice of smuggling and trafficking of human beings into the U.S. for illicit purposes," Ryan said.

Officials said the ringleader in the case is Young Joon Yang, 37, of Pleasant Hill. He is accused of conspiracy to transport and harbor undocumented foreign nationals, two counts of sex trafficking, conspiracy to launder money, conspiracy to transport Korean women across state lines with intent to engage in prostitution and conspiracy to use telephone facilities to aid in prostitution.

Sung Yong Kim, 39, whose address is unknown, also stands accused of two sex-trafficking counts, as well as conspiracy to transport undocumented foreign nationals.

Yang operated an underground taxi service, known as Yang's Taxi, that took prostitutes to and from airports and brothels in San Francisco, according to the indictment.

At least 400 federal, state and local law enforcement officers assisted with the searches.
*******************************************************

James D 2004

07-10-05, 21:22

Come on, Korean MP's are part of LA as long as people can remember. Used to print money a decade ago as no one really bothers them if you pay up all the right channels. In recent years they are hard hit by LE, like Orange County CA is free of these MP's. The quality is far down from a couple of years ago.

Now in LA many go underground to residential apartments and houses. Koreans, Chinese and a few Japanese. In North LA, these houses out number MP's by at least 10 to 1. Along I 10 and 60, you can always find a dozen when you turn off at any exit from Diamond Bar to Pasadena/Alhumbra, except no men's land like COI. The girls are all across the spectrum, temporary visitors to dig gold, students who find no future in attending school, college students run up huge gambling debts, the more mature ones who would do anything that's not normally offered in MP's.

What interest me the most is those new breed of SW's, new at least in the sense that before roaming charge disappear across the land, you don't notice them. Now if you pick one at the high priced areas, their area code can be any.

Some are more or less 18 year old all American girls, who feel that being escort waiting for phone calls is too slow paced. They also can't offer GFE that escorts are expected to offer. They can walk around and clear a grand in a couple of hours and less. Pretty, healthy, in good shape, can be put in Newport neighborhood without out of place. Sexy trendy outfits and sometimes expensive on occasions.

J Schwanger

07-11-05, 17:44

Just to set the record straight.

Many MP's are not owned by Koreans, including some very authentic Korean MP's. Green Spa and the one nearby in Baldwin Park wasn't, and I doubt about those in COI. I know one ex-LE, white guy owner, and I took his word for it. Basically, if you want a nice return for your money with minimal investment, little risk, minimal knowledge and effort, beats McDonald many times over. You just need to find a Korean mami, offer a partnership or a nice package, she'll get the girls, train the girls, run the place, handle customers and LE. Until a couple of years ago it's sort of printing money with little trouble.

Facts may be true but may not be relevant. Prostitution is most acceptable as an occupation in Thailand, not so much as in other Asian countries. The Philipines used to be a huge brothel catering a giangatic GI base. That doesn't make Philipina or Thai girls popular in LA. They do legally export countless numbers of women when they can, mostly as domestic servants. Domestics in Asia are mostly Philipinas, and then Thai, probably cheaper. In say HK, they are very popular as a single cop, not a rookie, with a decent salary could afford one. Almost all families with well educated working mothers have a domestic, including many stay at home moms. But rarely anyone can afford or think about a Chinese or Korean domestic. The point is that whatever the history, the availability is, that's not exactly the reason that the Koeans are here in numbers.

The asian population in LA by decending order are Chinese, Philipino, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese. Immigration from Japan should be insignificant in recent years. Indeed the Japanese are almost native Californians compared to other races. They are well established and so the number of providers are few. I know where to find the other girls but I have no clue about Philipino girls? Where are they? Those in Cindy bar are gorgeous but they are mostly hostesses.

The Korean girls in MP's are off the trafficing scale, I agree. Many are good at massage, or similiar erotic skills, that new girls can't pick up fast. Many are obviously now locals. Some come over by themselves for a short visa, still very beautiful at 30, but they get more money here than back home, competing with young girls. In the good MP's, the girls are allowed to take care of themselves well, probably learn from the mami as well. So they can have a long working life compared to say Chinese houses. In less than one year they skin may be completely washed out. Younger girls also could suffer a sudden balloon like Nikki Chao, then gone out of business all of a sudden. Those late 20's and early 30's Koreans are survivers and their body looks the same year after year.

The Korean girls who are brought here by larger scales are rather different. Many are younger with a tighter body. But in the looks and sexy department, the MP girls with all their experience are better. They have surplus in the Korean community and so they share with the larger Chinese communities.

They don't bring Korean women to other parts of Asia in any significant numbers expect perhaps Japan. HK get whatever it needs from China. The other Asian tigers like Taiwan and Singapore are also Chinese. If they import anything it will be Chinese if they can.

They say the better ones export to Europe first, then USA. The competition is keen in Europe because of the law. The price isn't as good as in USA but if you send dogs, you don't get anything. The early 20's doesn't mean a thing in USA. If they start at 18 for VIP's, spend 19 in Europe and by the time they are 21 in US, they are old bags. But still LA has been good to the older women.James D 2004 on Pasadena Board 6-7-05.

James,

Yes, there are some AMP's owned by whites. Recently in Houston they busted this guy:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3241233#
http://www.click2houston.com/news/4482038/detail.html
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou050526_jt_slavetrade.2b139287e.html

But these cases are exceedingly rare. For one, most whites don't speak asian languages or have the connections necessary to make this work. And true, the number of japanese-americans in this country is growing smaller every day. Japan is no longer a sender country of immigrants. But the key question is, as SK grow richer will this still be an avenue of employment for so many of its women? And if the Feds keep cracking down on it, will it continue? That strategy may be flawed as apparently the border patrols aren't efficient and there is poor enforcement of visa screening. But most importantly, who will get this trade next?

J Schwanger

07-11-05, 18:43

South Korea in a short period of time has taken a place among the elite of nations.

Consider:

--Think it's just Nike and Polo, etc. outsourcing textiles and shoes directly to Chinese firms? Or is it that they now outsource it to firms managed by Koreans and Taiwanese in factories on the Mainland. And the investment capital for these factories also comes from SK, Taiwan, other dragons as much as from the US, Europe and Japan.

--Hyundai makes cars in Slovakia. They also make them in the US like japanese automakers.

--If you can afford to host an Olympics, you may not be there yet, but you are certainly on your way:

Japan '64
SK '88
China '08

--Look at all the korean and korean-american lady golfers: Se Ri Pak, Gloria Park, Michelle Wie.

Golf, atleast in my mind, is usually a sport of the wealthy and elite. Certainly those who can afford all the trainers, greens fees, etc must have money to have the luxury to turn pro. Atleast they won't be turning pro in the AMP-factory..

--Let's compare per-capita-GDP (cia-factbook):

USA: $40,100
UK: $29,600
Germany: $28,700
__SK__: $19,200
Mexico: $9,600
China: $5,600
Iraq: $3,500
Viet Nam: $2,700
Bangladesh: $2,000
Nigeria: $1,000

My point is there are certainly poorer countries, more populous countries than SK. SK's government to its credit allows its citizens to go where they want either domestically or abroad. Mobility of labor is but one imput into a vibrant free market economy. Many other factors have contributed to SK's economic resurgence. But, undeniably, the United States of America has presided over this boom. We have provided a military umbrella to SK (and japan and western europe post-WWII) at great cost. We have also been lacking in our enforcement of visa screening from SK. So our "special relationship" with South Korea amounts almost to a hidden subsidy. A subsidy for us to incur as taxpayers (and AMP patrons!)

Are the ladies of SK, among the most beautiful in the world? maybe not. As was mentioned before, we here in the US probably don't get the "A" talent. If we do it is the heavily used talent. I, for one, would like to see a pretty latina, bangledeshi, nigerian or iraqi at my local MP. And still pay $99.95.

J Schwanger

07-12-05, 17:38

Sorry about the first link in the post below. The article follows:

June 26, 2005, 1:10AM

Is adult-entertainment mogul the king of Houston prostitution?
Evan Howard Loewenstein's life of luxury ended suddenly after he was
arrested, his spas shut and his assets seized
By PEGGY O'HARE

LIFE AND TIMES

Following a massive raid in west Houston last month, authorities allege
that Evan Howard Loewenstein headed the city's largest prostitution service.

When adult-entertainment mogul Evan Howard Loewenstein moved into the trendy Lakes of Parkway subdivision in west Houston in 2002, he immediately drew attention. First was the heightened security — burglar bars on every window, a taller fence and security cameras on all four outside corners of the
6,200-square-foot home valued at nearly $1 million.

Then his entourage arrived — men in trucks, carrying boxes and bags to
and from the house. Numerous cars were frequently parked on the street in
front of the home, instead of in Loewenstein's driveway as required,
prompting complaints to the homeowners association. The hubbub at 2022 Diamond Springs attracted particular notice in the gated community of upscale homes off Briar Forest, where security guards monitor all traffic. At dawn on May 12, Houston Police Department SWAT officers and federal agents served a search warrant at Loewenstein's home. Police cars packed the street; helicopters circled overhead. As Loewenstein, 60, and his ex-wife, Vickie Lynn Hegar, 40, were arrested, he whispered for their 13-year-old son to call his attorney and bail bondsman, police said.

Police also arrested several alleged business associates across the
city and served search warrants at their homes. Seven "spas," or massage
parlors, believed tied to Loewenstein or his associates were raided.

Ultimately, Loewenstein, Hegar and four others were each charged with a
single count of engaging in organized criminal activity. The charges
allege a "prostitution enterprise using more than one prostitute."

The case against Loewenstein is expected to go to a Harris County grand
jury next week. He and his co-defendants could face probation up to 10 years in prison if convicted.

In the affidavits for the search and arrest warrants, police accused
Loewenstein of operating the largest prostitution service in Houston.
Investigators estimate the conglomerate's worth in the millions.

Authorities also revealed they were investigating possibilities of
human trafficking — whether women were imported from other countries to work as prostitutes at the brothels — an allegation still under investigation.

Loewenstein's attorney denied last week that his client runs any sort
of prostitution and said he plans to plead not guilty. And human
trafficking? No way, he said.

A dramatic life change

A month after the arrests, Loewenstein's life has changed dramatically.
Once surrounded by guns, gambling, flashy cars and beautiful women, he is
reportedly broke and living at Hegar's Katy home.

All of his bank accounts have been frozen by the courts. He is unable
to buy groceries for his two sons, prompting him to sell his weight-lifting
equipment and white baby grand piano for a few thousand dollars in
emergency cash. He is driving a borrowed car and looking for a job, his attorney said.

His Lakes of Parkway home was foreclosed on and snapped up by a bank
for $700,000 at an auction earlier this month. Those of his spas raided by
police are closed and locked up.

The man who once jetted to Las Vegas and the Bahamas is in a difficult
spot.

"I'm watching him go down the street in handcuffs — and I'm thinking,
this is a man who's gone from riches to rags, if all of this is what they
say it is," said one of Loewenstein's neighbors, who asked not to be
identified because of fears for her safety.

Known since early '80s
Loewenstein has been known to vice officers in the Houston area since
the early 1980s, when he ventured into the adult-entertainment business
here.

But his current troubles go far beyond any ordinary prostitution case.
Massive in scope and many months in the making, the investigation
involves not only Houston police but the U.S. Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The state comptroller's office is assisting.

Since the arrival of Police Chief Harold Hurtt more than a year ago,
Houston police have shifted their priorities from simple street prostitution to
more complex organizations in the trade, vice officers said.

Police refocused on Loewenstein because of the growing number of spas
across the city and increasing public complaints about them, said Capt. Steve
Jett of the vice division.

HPD's investigation began in November when a former employee described
Loewenstein's network as one of the most sizable in the business.

Police and immigration agents accidentally stumbled on each other's
investigations earlier this year and joined forces.

No federal charges have been filed against Loewenstein and the others
arrested.

"His financial network is very broad, and it's taking time to evaluate
and analyze how he's made that money and what he's doing with that money," Jett said.

But Loewenstein's attorney, Richard Kuniansky, dismissed police's
estimation of his client's wealth as shoddy math and said the state has no
evidence that money came from prostitution.

Kuniansky said Loewenstein's money — millions of dollars — came from
legitimate business ventures, such as the stock market, real estate,
loans and the sale of bookstores.

Business records seized by police include copies of spa customers'
credit cards and driver's licenses. Police said they will interview as many
customers as possible in the coming weeks.

Kuniansky also denied that Loewenstein's enterprise engaged in migrant
trafficking, as two confidential sources alleged to Houston police.

Never sent to prison
Loewenstein has been arrested numerous times but never served time in
prison. He has, by all accounts, been a devoted single father to his
two sons, ages 13 and 2.

"My children are my world, my life," Loewenstein said in a brief
interview with the Houston Chronicle.

He also has a kind side, giving hams and turkeys to employees at his
adult-video stores for Thanksgiving.

But one detective familiar with his history said Loewenstein never held
a "real job" — an assessment Loewenstein disputes. Many businesses he is
thought to have owned or helped operate are in other people's names or
those of "sham" corporations, police said.

One former employee described Loewenstein as a hypochondriac in perfect
health. He's a man with an athletic build who lifts weights every day
and never drinks or smokes. He dresses only in white or black, usually
wearing tight shirts and pants made popular in the 1980s by the rap artist MC
Hammer — baggy workout trousers that ride high on the hips and fit tightly
around the ankles.

Loewenstein is an imposing figure with piercing blue eyes, one given to
long pauses who stares unflinchingly at others. He speaks softly around
those he doesn't know.

"He's an impressive-looking individual," said Bob Bork, general manager
of the Sam Houston Race Park, which Loewenstein often frequented until his
visits became more sporadic in the past couple of years. "His imposing
appearance sometimes intimidated people more than was necessary."

His temper also drew notice. Loewenstein was known to ante up thousands
in wagers at the track but became furious when he lost.

"He was notorious for tearing his shirt off. ... He'd just rip it right
down the middle and walk out," said one longtime customer at the track who
asked not to be identified. The customer recalled picking up some of
Loewenstein's shirt buttons and giving them to the tellers for a joke.

"He'd scream, he'd cuss, he'd holler about the jockey or the horse —
the jockey wasn't trying, or the horse wasn't trying. ... He's knocked
chairs over, he's thrown water," the customer said.

Loewenstein would not comment about such outbursts. But James Drew, 60,
of Katy — one of those arrested last month and the only co-defendant who
would comment for this article — confirmed Loewenstein was a poor loser.

Drew said he was caught up in the arrests by mistake and merely did
construction work in Loewenstein's adult bookstores. The charge against
Drew will be dropped, a Harris County prosecutor confirmed Saturday. Drew
said he knows nothing about the spa business.

"He was a very secretive man," Drew said of Loewenstein. "I don't know
anything about what illicit businesses he has. All I knew was he was an
investor."

Son of N.Y. police officer
Loewenstein was born in New York City in 1945, the son of a New York
police officer. He ventured off to Toledo, Ohio, for a year of law school in
the late 1960s, then dropped out to run a rock 'n' roll nightclub there
called The Gigolo.

One woman who dated him while at the University of Toledo recalled
Loewenstein as "someone who wanted to go somewhere fast."

"I knew he had an ego that was bigger than he was," said the woman, who
asked that her name not be published.

There are no indications Loewenstein ever got into trouble in Ohio. In
1973, he relocated to Houston. He lived in the Tanglewilde area, and in 1975,
he married his first wife, Deborah Hawkins.

Her brother, Mike Hawkins, who recalled visiting the couple at their
Houston condominium, said he never knew what Evan Loewenstein did for a living.

"As far as I know, I don't think he ever worked a day in his life,"
said Hawkins from his Toledo home. Even then, Loewenstein was intimidating.

"He had to control every aspect of everything," Hawkins recalled.

Houston police said Loewenstein was arrested in 1976 by Nassau County
police in Westbury, N.Y., for gambling promotion. Authorities there were
unable to find the report detailing that arrest.

He returned to Houston, where he worked for a time in a restaurant and
tended to his wife, who had been seriously injured in a car accident,
he said recently.

Loewenstein said he used part of a settlement his wife won and a bank
loan to open a disco called La Tique on FM 1960.

Prostitution allegations first surfaced in a 1981 civil case, prompting
a court to declare his nightclub, Stars, at 9811 Airline, a public
nuisance and grant a temporary injunction. The case was dismissed in 1986.

In a separate civil case, a jury concluded in 1984 that Loewenstein
knowingly maintained or helped run two brothels in the 100 block of
West Mount Houston, court records show. Both places were declared public
nuisances and ordered closed for one year unless $5,000 bonds were
posted on each property to guard against such crime in the future. Loewenstein ponied up the money.

His troubles did not end there. In 1984, he was arrested for aggravated
promotion of prostitution.

Ultimately, Loewenstein pleaded no-contest and was put on probation for
five years and ordered to pay a $5,000 fine, court records show.

"He made some good money in those days because he was driving a Rolls
Royce," said Harris County sheriff's Detective Demitrios Lemonitsakis,
who worked the case. "When he got arrested, he had $35,000 in his pocket.
Back in 1984, $35,000 was a lot of money."

Loewenstein's first wife, who was thought to know nothing about her
husband's businesses, filed for divorce in December 1985, accusing him
of cruel treatment. The couple had no children, and she moved back to
Ohio.

Now remarried and living under another name in Missouri, she declined
to talk about her ex-husband.

In the mid-1980s, Loewenstein acquired a topless nightclub that also
drew police attention.

The club, at 614 W. Mount Houston, went by several names, including
Excalibur, Legacy and Pleasures. Authorities moved to declare it a
public nuisance after Houston police worked numerous prostitution cases there in 1986 and 1987.

A court granted a permanent injunction in a civil case in 1988, and the
club was ordered padlocked for one year unless a $5,000 bond was posted to
ensure the property would not be used for prostitution.

__Spas with Asian theme__
It is not clear when Loewenstein ventured into the spa business, but
most of those tied to him by police opened in the last five years. Many had an Asian flair, with names such as "Asian West" and "Far East Oriental Super
Spa."

Police claim Loewenstein and his associates owned or operated eight
prostitution enterprises at the time of the arrests, an allegation that
Loewenstein's attorney denied. Some of the spas drew complaints from
members of the public who didn't want the activity in their neighborhoods.

One former employee, whose name was kept confidential, told police
Loewenstein hired Asian women who would have sexual intercourse with
customers — an act known as "full service" — because the women were
easy to manage and made a lot of money. Loewenstein's attorney denied his
client did any such thing.

The source told police Loewenstein also paid to have sex with the
employees, an affidavit shows.

Police also were told that a Loewenstein associate would pick up the
Asian women from the airport.

Federal agents learned that 11 long-distance calls were made from one
of the spas to Thailand, a known source for Asian prostitutes who come to work in Houston.

Loewenstein's lawyer said allegations of human trafficking are
"absolutely" not true.

"He has never paid to bring a woman into the United States for
prostitution or any other purposes," Kuniansky said.

The affidavit also alleges John Kenneth Coil — a North Texas man who
made headlines last year when he pleaded guilty to transportation of obscene
matter and mail fraud, causing his adult-oriented businesses in Texas
to be forfeited — told federal agents Loewenstein was involved in human
trafficking and had women brought illegally from Mexico to work as
prostitutes in his brothels.

Coil, who is free while his case is appealed, denied saying that when
reached by phone last month.

"I know nothing about how he gets the girls," Coil said. "If the case
against him stands or falls against the honesty of that affidavit, he's
a free man — because I'll be more than happy to get up and say those are
bald-faced lies."

Video gambling venture
Loewenstein kept a diverse portfolio. In 2002, according to court and
business records, he opened Magical Chances, a video gambling business
in the 10900 block of the North Freeway.

Perhaps that should have been no surprise. Loewenstein's love of
gambling was well-known. Sopida Phomsouvanh, a woman from Thailand who met Loewenstein at one of his spas and later gave birth to his youngest
son, said Loewenstein would eventually curtail his visits to the horse track
because he lost $60,000 in bets in one year.

Magical Chances contained 70 gambling devices, commonly known as
eight-liners, which awarded gift certificates or cash to winners.
Loewenstein counted money behind the counter and greeted customers. He
told one police officer he ran a "first-class operation." Months after it
opened, Loewenstein was arrested on charges of possessing a gambling device and keeping a gambling place, both misdemeanor offenses.

A jury acquitted Loewenstein on the first charge, and the other charge
was later dismissed.

Unsolved crime
Two months after that arrest, he and his older son, then 10 years old,
were victims of a violent home invasion while living in Katy.

By then, Loewenstein and Hegar's common-law marriage had ended and they
were living in separate houses.

Loewenstein's son awakened him that night, telling him someone was in
the house. Loewenstein reported four masked men came into his bedroom with guns, hit him in the eye and forced him to the ground. Both he and his son were tied up before the intruders stole items from the house, a Fort Bend
County Sheriff's Office report shows.

The crime remains unsolved, but it prompted Loewenstein to take
stringent security measures when he later moved to Houston.

Sources told police the home invasion was staged, according to the
affidavit leading to Loewenstein's arrest last month. Expensive baseball
memorabilia reported stolen was actually hidden in a closet inside his new home in Houston, one source told police.

Kuniansky said the crime was not staged. All the items swiped in the
home invasion were listed in explicit detail in an insurance claim, and none
was found in Loewenstein's Houston home during the recent search, he said.

Firearms found in his car
When Loewenstein was arrested last month, SWAT officers went into his
house as a precaution because police heard he had a large supply of weapons, including an Uzi, Jett said.

Just last year, Loewenstein was arrested when deputies found several
guns in his BMW after a wreck on Texas 249. A loaded .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol was in the car's center console. In the trunk were two pistols, a rifle, a fixed-blade knife with knuckles and five boxes of ammunition,
Harris County sheriff's reports show.

Loewenstein was charged with being a felon in possession of a weapon.
He was later convicted on a reduced charge of unlawfully carrying a weapon,
which landed him a $4,000 fine and six days in jail.

Police found more guns at Loewenstein's home last month, including a
loaded .45-caliber pistol, Jett said. Kuniansky said the guns belonged to
Hegar.

Police seized $1.08 million in cashier's checks and $20,000 cash from a
safe in the house. Kuniansky said some of that money came from his client's
net winnings at the race track. Loewenstein also had the money on hand
because he was interested in foreclosure investments, which require purchasers to ante up cash at the time of sale, Kuniansky said.

Police also found valuable baseball memorabilia locked away —
autographed photos of Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra and Lou Gehrig — along with coins, jewelry, plastic bags of financial records and racing receipts.

Kuniansky said police violated Loewenstein's constitutional rights when
they seized pornographic videotapes, DVDs and magazines from the privacy of
his home.

Loewenstein and his attorney also accused police of being overzealous
during the raid, contending they damaged the home and demolished an elevator door when the elevator car unexpectedly started moving.

Additional arrests
In addition to Loewenstein and Hegar, police arrested Ted Lee Wright,
58, who is reported to have collected money from the spas for Loewenstein;
bookkeeper Carolyn Cheatwood, 62; Khoai Vuong, 52, listed as owner of
one of the spas; and Drew.

Vuong, his attorney said, did nothing wrong and has no connection to
Loewenstein.

Drew's attorney expects the charge against his client to be dismissed.
The others' attorneys declined to comment or did not return calls from the
Chronicle.

At the various spas, immigration agents arrested five women believed to
be in the country illegally — two from Mexico, two from El Salvador and
one from Uruguay. The women did not say they had been held against their
will. Immigration officials said they will be used as material witnesses if
necessary.

Loewenstein asked a court to free some of his assets to pay for living
expenses and legal costs, but a judge denied him an evidentiary
hearing, which would require the state to prove his money came from prostitution proceeds. His attorney is taking that fight to the appeals court.
************************************
Loewenstein has applied at about 50 places for a job with no success,
Kuniansky said. Many of them are at minimum-wage level, such as
stuffing envelopes or placing signs.
************************************
"One of the large problems in finding a job is the allegations that
have been made against him," Kuniansky said.

Some people who know him say it is too early to predict Loewenstein's
fate. "If he's got a good attorney," said Dean Morris, who used to manage one of Loewenstein's bookstores, "he'll probably walk again."

• Childhood: Born in New York City, 1945, son of a police officer.
• Toledo, Ohio: Attended a year of law school in the late 1960s;
dropped out
to run a nightclub.
• Houston: Arrived in 1973; lived for a time in the Tanglewilde area.
• Problems surface: Following complaints about prostitution in 1981, a
court
declared his Airline Drive nightclub a public nuisance.
• Criminal conviction: In 1984, he was arrested for aggravated
promotion of
prostitution. He pleaded no-contest, was sentenced to probation and
fined
$5,000.
• Current woes: On May 12, Houston police and federal authorities
raided
seven spas, three other adult businesses and seven homes. Loewenstein
and
five others were each charged with engaging in organized criminal
activity.

James D 2004

07-12-05, 20:58

Re: Ownership of MP's, many are not owned by Koreans, but by Chinese, that's what I wanted to say - even whites. Whites are not common but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot in California. In Orange county many white Chiro demand big many for their service as a front because all cities need a liscensed Chiro to open an MP. Many got to partnership status, the only thing that stop them from owning one is that they don't want to be the fall guy and go down with the MP. By the way, Asian Chiro prints money here without doing anything illegal. They used to do something on the side and prints load of money before the strict city rules. The white Chiro's aren't doing that good in comparison.

First, I'm not sure trafficking are that common. Say in the busted San Fran MP's, the number one Golden Flower isn't on the list, but the WSG favorite King's is on. I've never been to King's but from the reports it looked like the girls fit more into those being trafficked. It's more Chinese than Korean I think. Golden Flower in comparison looked like a Playboy den, all models material sitting down for you to pick in a good day at good times. Mostly 18 to 22 or looked that way. The girls quality have the same feel as the top clubs in Hong Kong, comparable to the ones in Macau (the best). Just when you are ready to pick, the busy bees walk out to send their clients away and you drop your jaw. More likely than not they heard the joint and find they way there to dig gold, a lot better than back home.

Anyway, many MP's do not involve in trafficking directly. There's the wholesaler, the retailer, and the middle man. The MP's like employing someone or employ someone from some middleman, though they treat free spirits better. If the MP's get someone from the wholesaler directly, they have to guantee the minimum return of each girl to the wholesaler so they tend to work the girls as much as possible and doesn't care what the customers do to them. Actually the wholesaler treat the girls better as it's some form of investment. If the girl get hurt or get disease, they loss the investment.

The next is already here - the Chinese girls. North LA is the fastest growing region in CA, and that's the Chinese area. There are other Asians but the growth is a lot higher for Chinese population while Koreans aren't growing that much, like the Japanese. They top the Asian populaton long ago but perhaps the Chinese girls are not that visible because they can be all consumed by the Chinese community. The Korean girls also rely on the Chinese community to take them all.

Again trafficking isn't that big, because the numbers of private MP's are huge. The brothels may help to set the price, but there plenty more willing and able girls to do the duty.

J Schwanger

07-15-05, 15:08

I wouldn't claim that this is standard at all AMP's, but looking at the report for a recent bust in Columbus, OH gives interesting clues about some trends.

__Oasis Health Spa__

"...The alleged CEO is 57-year old Chae Sun Leonard of Gahanna. Her managers, according to police, are 51-year-old Han Son Yi of Suwanee Georgia, 36-year-old Sayjai Wilson and 55-year-old Kim Freeman, both of Columbus..."

Was it necessary to have so many managers for one AMP? There's only one _shift_ after all. Also, can you guess which of the ladies married G.I.'s?

"...They say rank-and-file workers, like Atchariya Poosara and Rayvadee Koumphkand, were flown in from locations around the country..."

WTF? These are Thai names. It looks like the Korean managers are using Thai labor.

So I would speculate that the network here goes as follows: 1) your brother owns a cannery or food processing plant in Thailand.[go to any U.S. Asian Supermarket, i.e. 99 Ranch and you'll see many products coming from Thailand] Or even possibly he runs a mill {a lot of the fabrics in our clothing come from Thailand*} 2) You run an AMP in the U.S. 3) Call your brother and ask for him to offer some of his female staff a way to make money in the U.S. 4) have him ship the talent from Thailand to Canada or Mexico. This might have to be done through intermediaries (wholesalers). 5) Somehow, they cross the border. Then the Korean "taxi's" ferry them to your AMP.

This scenario (not too far-fetched) illustrates what I've been saying: as you move up along the ladder in the global economy you are able to oppress those on lower rungs. Also note the ages of the ladies. I would suspect that for the generation of Korean women now in their 50's (coming of age in the 70's and early 80's) prostitution as a career was a viable way of life. However, I think this is not as appealing nowadays and there are abundant options besides.

* from washington post column of Jim Hoagland on June 9, 2005

....Think Asia, not only China. Only a revaluing of the Chinese currency of 25 percent or more -- a huge, unlikely step -- would raise prices enough to deter consumers abroad, a Chinese businessman suggested in a not-for-attribution talk on Asia's "dispersed manufacturing" system delivered at the Trilateral Commission meeting here in April.

"The yarn for a shirt you think comes from China was perhaps shipped from Thailand to South Korea for processing while buttons came from the Philippines. The final product was stitched together in China and shipped from there," the businessman said. "Revaluing, at any politically acceptable level, will not seriously change the final price."....

James D 2004

07-15-05, 23:22

The networking is just like ordinary business. Some guys, very often ex-massage girls who saved up enough money, decided to open an MP at some location, without a lot of competition, and good money can be earned, and that they can get good MP girls. Their employees can be found in several ways.

Professionals back in S Korea knows where to find MP's needing workers. MP owners here have some connection back home, or they find a mamasan that have connection back home. It's pretty easy to get a tourist visa into USA all over the world, include eastern european countries. Some with prove of employment often get 10 years visas. They can come over for 6 months once every x months, claiming they have a boy friend if they have to. Plenty of Korean MP girls are on short visas. Some other Asian girls have to go back to their country to stay a while and renew their visas. But in case of Philipinos, domestic servant visas doesn't work, because they are happy to disappear so the employer have to guarantee to retrive them.

Some locations are better than others. If there are no one willing to come over to work legally, they can go to the traffickers. The MP owners don't smuggle particular persons. Why should they? Trafficking depends very much on nationality, not that much depending on the GDP, which is just an average anyway. China is a communist country, it's not easy for systematic large scale luring of young girls and smuggle them over. Though a lot of people want to come illegally and they pay for that one way or the other. S Korea isn't that poor, but as the news say there are poor regions. Korean gangs are deep rooted in the culture. As Chinese is the largest community in say LA, if you ask them, they naturally will make use of chinese girls, Korean girls OK, Thai's, Philipinos, what for? So trafficking of Korean girls is big as in the news, but others nationality are not on the same scale.

On the other hand, the traffickers have lots of girls. They may operate larger scale brothels and larger scale MP's to guarantee their investment in trafficking.

Bob Mantis

07-16-05, 12:29

Just a few words on how the KMPs recruit women. My girlfriend used to work at KMPs. She came to the US when she was 20, is now a citizen. But, she was not well educated, had only poor job opportunities, so when she divorced her husband, she took to working at the KMPs. She has worked at dozens of places over the last 7 years, though hasn't worked for about a year. She tells me that one of the main ways the women learn about places is the taxi drivers, whose job it is to ferry women from one place to another. I wasn't sure what taxi drivers she was talking about until I read the articles about the big busts here on the West Coast. The taxi drivers work for that guy Young, who is one of the people just arrested in the big bust. The job of these drivers is to take the women all over the US to their next MP. Now my girlfriend is not one of the women who was smuggled in, but she says that the network is easy to tap into, just by knowing the taxi drivers. Another way that the women find out about the places to work is simply cell phone calls. These women know each other and talk all the time. They call each other to learn where the new places are, which places are safe/not safe, where the tips are the biggest, etc. Anyway, it is eye opening to see how this business works.

J Schwanger

07-18-05, 17:29

With all this money that was seized on the premises of the AMP's, I wonder if there has ever been an attempted robbery of an AMP. Or if some of the AMP's pay protection money. I guess asian street gangs might be more of a problem in Long Beach. Not in the tenderloin in SF, or Koreatown, though. And the apartment AMP's might be vulnerable.

J Schwanger

James D 2004

07-21-05, 21:50

There was a robbery in Southgate, CA. It was obviously a target - Hau MP the size of a motel, and they don't turn down girls who wanted to attend the lineup. Chinese owner, Korean mami, a few Korean girls, mostly Latina. They have a uniformed security team - a supervisor and at least two guards on shifts, or even together. Enclosed park lot and the only way into the MP is through there.

But I wouldn't say robbery it's common. Indeed it's not easy to rob an MP. I would think the majority of MP's are not gang operated. But if you don't know, you wouldn't want to take your chances. MP is a bad place to rob. It's usually like a maze inside. You have to round up all the girls and clients in the dark rooms. You never know what's in the last room at the back. If you know too much, your face is probably recorded in the cams many times over. If you didn't rob a place protected by a gang, you may be forcing the owner to find some gangs to protect them and deal with the robbers. The gangs always like to help the others, see God Father.

Many MP's are small, obviously unprotected with a few woman inside. But if they feel the need, they can always find a uniformed guard, just as any strip clubs, hostess clubs.

Rather than protection money, the gangs tend to leave others alone. If the gangs want that sort of money, they already have their MP's and they are not in direct competition with the other ones operated by retired housewife or ex-massage girls.

Another factor is safety by the numbers. Very often the single security measure in a private massage apartment is by putting a lot of men shoes on the door mat outside. Asian tradition don't have carpets. Here all houses are furnished with carpets, and they find it rather odd to walk all over a nice carpet.

If the news is correct, many MP's help to retail the girls from the wholesaler gangs. So it's not wise to touch the income of the gangs. These girls often come with drivers who stay with them all the time. Gangs respect other gangs properties.

J Schwanger

08-07-05, 06:45

**********************************
L.A. Times 8/7/05
South Korea Totters on Road to Economic Gain
A weak service sector and export rival China are seen as factors that could limit its growth

By Don Lee, Times Staff Writer

SEOUL — These should be happy times in South Korea. The country's largest corporations, Samsung and Hyundai, have won global respect for their electronic goods and automobiles. Its scientists are making breakthroughs in stem cell research. Korean Internet games, films and pop stars have swept Asia.

But the mood in Seoul, the nation's capital, is hardly cheery. Merchants complain about sluggish sales. Workers fret about lack of job opportunities. Many smaller businesses can't get financing, while those who can are reluctant to hire or make new investments in Korea.

"Business is dead," says Ko Jeong-hwa, who has been selling eyeglasses for 20 years at Namdaemun, a huge traditional market in central Seoul that is a bellwether of economic activity among working-class Koreans.

Almost a decade after the Asian financial crisis, the South Korean economy is still coping with fundamental problems that could limit its long-term growth prospects and ability to rise among the world's budding industrial powers.

South Korea is a test case of whether a once-poor nation that has become a manufacturing exporting powerhouse can also develop a strong domestic economy and financial system. Japan, which followed a similar path of promoting its exports at the expense of its domestic economy, is still paying the price with a two-decade-long economic malaise, analysts say.

Exports certainly are the engine of the Korean economy. Booming shipments of Korean-made cars, semiconductors, electronics and industrial machinery drove the economy's 4.6% growth last year. And although slowing in recent months, exports have been strong enough to keep gross domestic product expanding at a 3% pace this year.

By itself, that growth rate isn't bad. Although just a third of China's and slightly less than the U.S.', it's still higher than that of Japan and most countries in Europe.

But the statistics mask some fundamental challenges for South Korea's economy, the world's 11th largest.

One is the nation's underdeveloped service sector, including its troubled financial industry. A more developed service sector is seen as essential to expanding Korea's domestic economy, which is still struggling with sluggish consumer spending and tepid job creation. A recent pick-up in department-store sales offers hope that Korean consumers are beginning to recover from a credit-card binge of a few years ago that left many households deep in debt.

Another challenge is China, which has presented many nations, particularly those in Asia, with profound opportunities and risks. Although Korean-owned factories in China have helped boost exports, they also are diverting capital that could be used to further develop the domestic Korean economy, analysts say.

Further, China is increasingly a direct competitor on the export front. Just as Korea is catching up with Japan in manufacturing of higher-quality cars and electronics, China is closing in on Korea.

With the growing Chinese challenge, South Korea must become more self-sufficient and diversify its economy with such elements as a stronger financial system, growing tourism sector and promising biotech and science centers, analysts and policymakers say. All of this, they say, requires massive investments, entrepreneurship and sound financial and corporate management.

Thus far, China has been a double-edged sword for South Korea. Last year almost half of South Korea's $8 billion of foreign direct investments went into mainland China. Most were for manufacturing operations. Samsung, Korea's largest corporation, alone plowed $700 million into China.

The investments have allowed South Koreans to produce goods more cheaply for world markets and given them access to China's large consumer base. Hyundai cars are top sellers in China, as are Samsung electronics and LG Electronic appliances.

But there's been relatively little spending on new factories at home. That helps explain why manufacturing employment in South Korea has fallen in recent years.

The China factor has clearly been felt at Namdaemun, or Great South Gate, where more than 10,000 businesses operate. Down the alley in Gate 8, Kim Dal-seo sat in front of a handbag and suitcase store. Three years ago, he says, almost everything sold at his shop was made in Korea. Now, 85% comes from China.

But that hasn't put more money into his pocket, he says. Kim points to his store's bestseller, a gray luggage bag. That same item can be bought for $13 in Shanghai, but after duties, transportation and warehousing fees, Kim says he pays $20 for it. Kim tries to sell the bags for $25, but says customers these days haggle them down to where his profit is mere pennies.

Ko, the eyeglass retailer, still buys most of his frames from Korean manufacturers in the southern city of Daegu. But half of the eyeglass factories there have gone to China. The ones remaining produce premium, fashionable frames that Ko sells for $100 or more each.

"The Korean economy has to get better before people will spend money for these glasses," he says, handling a pair of titanium frames. Two or three years from now, he adds, the entire Korean eyeglass manufacturing industry may wind up in China.

Even if that happens, Korean companies can capitalize on the shift by providing the Chinese with sophisticated equipment that make high-end glasses. Although South Korea isn't blessed with natural resources, Koreans can do other things to meet China's booming needs, such as refine oil and ship it to China, or open up South Korean ports to handle the capacity crunch at Chinese harbors, says James Rooney, president of Market Force Co., a consulting firm in Seoul.

Nor have Koreans begun to tap the potentially lucrative market for Chinese tourists, he says.

"Korea is a little ballerina with a China elephant coming up behind it," says Rooney. "If you ignore it, it could crush you…. If you get out of the way, it's safe but not an attractive strategy." The best bet, he says, is to hop on its back and get a free ride.

At the moment, South Korea's economic officials are preoccupied with trying to stimulate domestic demand. The government has cut taxes and kept interest rates low. Last month, public employees were told to stop coming in to work a half-day on Saturdays, a long-standing practice here. The move was partly aimed at creating more leisure time.

Private consumption in South Korea has been sluggish since late 2002, when five previous years of profligate credit card use came crashing down on many families.

Hwang In-seong, chief economist at Samsung Economic Research Institute, expects consumer activity to pick up in the second half of this year. People who were behind in their payments have had two years to get their finances in order, he says.

But other analysts aren't so sure. ING estimates that South Koreans' debt service ratio, or total debt payments as a percentage of disposal income, remains at about 25%. That's about 10 percentage points higher than for the typical U.S. household. At any rate, consumption isn't likely to rebound robustly without substantially stronger job growth, forecast at a tepid 1.5% rate this year.

Kim Seong-gu, chief executive of Samtoh, a popular publishing house in Seoul, learned just how desperate people are for work when he advertised for three job openings. More than 500 people applied, he says.

Every day, Kim passes a 150-foot-long line of people waiting for a free meal at a church near his office. Stores nearby that used to open at 9 a.m. now wait until noon.

"Things aren't getting better," he says.

One reason for the poor labor picture is that large conglomerates that dominate South Korea's economy employ relatively few Koreans, as many of their goods are produced abroad. In fact, about 85% of the country's 23 million workers are employed by small- and medium-sized businesses. And many of them aren't doing much hiring.

A more diversified economy would help. South Korea has the benefit of a highly educated workforce, one of the world's highest penetration of high-speed Internet service and, unlike Japan, a relatively youthful population. That partly explains why the arts, gaming and animation have flourished in South Korea.

But compared with other developed nations, South Korea's service sector remains weak. Analysts say that reflects government policies favoring manufacturing, lack of experience in building those industries, and some peculiarities.

The banking sector, for one, is largely unionized in South Korea. That's made it tough for some financial institutions to cut employment as needed. Legal barriers also stand in the way of layoffs.

South Korean securities firms, meanwhile, are still struggling as the stock market's volatility in recent years chased away individual investors. After the nation's 1997 financial crisis, many foreign investors bought into Korea's financial services and other companies. Foreigners hold more than half of Samsung Electronics, the most valuable company on the Korea Stock Exchange.

But many South Koreans, including government officials, have had mixed feelings about the new foreign stakeholders, at times balking at their efforts to make management decisions or change rules of corporate governance or transparency.

Outside influence has helped bring some needed financial reforms and liberalization. But Ha-joon Chang, who teaches economics at Cambridge University, sees a downside to it as well.

Besides adding a bit of volatility to the economy, Chang says, pressure primarily from outside shareholders has prompted Korean companies to increase dividends, buy back shares to lift stock prices and invest less than they used to. As it is, he says, South Korean banks in recent years have been very conservative about lending, making less money available to businesses and more to consumers.

"I'm afraid if things are continuing in this way, I don't see how investment will recover and revive the economy," Chang says.

Many small business owners say what they need aren't bank loans, but customers.

In a more upscale area next to City Hall, print-shop owner Jeon Sun-taek says sales from making business cards are way off. "We do not dream of investing when business is so down," she says.

"For my business to improve, I think the basic economy will have to pick up," says Im Hye-jeong, who runs a travel agency in downtown Seoul.

"People need to eat, sleep and have a roof over their heads," she adds. "But they don't need to travel."

************************************************

NY Times 8/7/05

Said in the context of currency reevaluation in China:

"...Still, assuming against all odds that all this happened, what would the results be for the American economy? Nicholas R. Lardy, a China expert at the Institute for International Economics who has been calling for the yuan to rise, says some American manufacturing jobs could be saved.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He acknowledges that it wouldn't help all industries. Much of the less complex stuff that Americans buy from China is no longer made in the United States. Some of it moved to Japan a long time ago. Then Japan lost that manufacturing to South Korea, and South Korea lost it to China. It's unlikely that the United States will ever recover it, he said...."
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<<<the article further goes on to speculate that MOST microchip manufacturing may end up in China, as China is ramping up its capacity for wafer foundries. This could cause a global glut in the market for processors, or atleast give TaiWan and South Korea trouble down the road. And it will be a "mid-range" manufacturing sector lost to the U.S. to offshore outsourcing. Could this also apply to the AMP in the future?>>>

Bob Mantis

08-10-05, 12:03

What is the implication of the tottering SK economy? Do you think it means more women will be entering the ASP/AMP trade? Just curious why you posted that report.

Frank Booth

08-12-05, 12:00

What is the implication of the tottering SK economy? Do you think it means more women will be entering the ASP/AMP trade? IMHO probably.

J Schwanger

08-16-05, 04:05

Bob,

I've been trying to show here an economic relation between the AMPs and the economic situation in SK. At times I've been speculative, but usually I try to go with some common sense. Locally, we can see that if a town is economically depressed that town will more likely draw women into prostitution, other things being equal. As SK grows richer there _should_ naturally be less women working in AMPs. So South Korea's economy has EVERYTHING to do with the number of ladies coming our way. The main reason, however, that I posted the article about SK's economy below is to play devil's advocate and to open up discussion on this thread.

I have been maintaining (see my posts of 7-11 and 7-15) that despite the asian financial crisis of '97-'98, despite political shakeups (2003 vote of non-confidence in SK's president) spooking the markets, despite even increasing competition to the economic model korea has used to grow its economy from China and others, SK is safely on its way to first-world status. This will translate, eventually, to greater economic opportunities for all and less women going abroad to work in our AMP industry.

Frank Booth is right, I say all this IMHO. I hope putting forth an opinion will invite discussion on this thread. And others will point out what's missing in the big picture that I've sketched out so far.

The article shows there will be challenges to SK's economy ahead. And it draws an analogy to the economic funk that has been plaguing Japan for the past 15 years and one that could happen to SK. This is significant as Japan, SK and other recently-prosperous Asian countries have followed an export-heavy/manufacturing strategy. Other issues which relate to the larger economy and that the article doesn't mention, but that I hope to touch on soon in more posts is:

1) The recent agreement between the U.S. to remove all forces stationed at the DMZ and a timetable for a large reduction of forces on the korean penninsula. Simply: less soldiers = less need for red light districts surrounding bases = less "war-brides" = less mamasans and staff for U.S. KAMPs.

2) The 2003 decision to relocate the capital from Seoul. A decision motivated by wanting to spread economic well-being to somewhere BESIDES just SEOUL. Other developing countries have attempted this in the past and for similar reasons: Brasil, Nigeria. But neither of these is as far along economically as SK. By Far. On paper it sounds like a good idea, but maybe this won't do much to diversify korea's economy geographically (short of reunification).

3) The demographics of South Korea are starting to resemble the prosperous West and Japan. It is an aging population which is having less children on average. From my experience it seems as if there are fewer korean immigrants coming to the U.S and fewer adoptions. There seem to also be fewer students coming here from korea. And the surveys that I've seen show that koreans getting their PhD's in the U.S. (mostly in sciences) are choosing to return home ever increasingly. These developments are important as they mean there will be less remissions flowing in to help development. But as the article mentions, it appears that Direct Foreign Investment is flowing from Korea to China (or even from Korean-Americans to China) vs. from U.S. to Korea.

4) How reunification (should it ever come) complicates all of this. If Korea unifies will it be able to integrate the North easily? Would this situation resemble the unification of Germany?

5) And of course more on the crackdowns on the industry that have taken place in both South Korea and the U.S. These will certainly decrease the supply of ladies going into the AMPs.

J Schwanger

J Schwanger

08-16-05, 04:38

Originating in our involvement in the Korean War and continuing to today, there is a very REAL social phenomenon of Koreans being adopted by Americans. Initially the majority of such adoptions were by causcasian families. But as Korean and other asian immigrants have increased their numbers in the U.S. there has been more same-race adoptions.

How does this relate to this thread? I would argue that it is one more factor which contributed to SK's economic success and will decrease the viability of the U.S. KAMP industry over time. Perhaps these adoptions permitted SK to dump their "surplus population" off on a willing U.S. that doesn't maintain its population at replacement levels. That may be too harsh, as american servicemen did father a lot of these children and neglected their responsibilites. Maybe the woman who abandoned her child was a prostitute and by giving her child this chance she kept her away from learning prostitution to survive. Nevertheless, the adoptions freed up social resources for other things such as economic development.

An example of such an adoption in the popular culture is Soon-Yi Previn, i.e. Woody Allen's wife. But there are more. South Korea provided one of the first examples of international adoptions to the U.S. However, it isn't the largest source nowadays:

“..These Korean adoptees represent the largest wave of international adoption by U.S. and European families: from 1955 to 1998, more than 98,000 Korean children were adopted by U.S. families alone.

In addition to the many children who were orphaned during the war, the children fathered by U.S. and European military personnel stationed in Korea were victims of a long-held social stigma against mixed-race children, and they also became available for adoption. Of the 9,500-plus Korean children adopted internationally by 1970, 90% of the adoptees were orphaned or mixed-race children.
From the 1970s forward, as the after-effects of the Korean War faded, the shift changed from orphaned and mixed-race children to children born to single mothers. Single motherhood remains a stigma in contemporary Korean society and the majority of the adoptees are still indeed the children born to unmarried women. In spite of the very public criticism the South Korean government received about the “export” of its children for families abroad, Korean adoptees continue to become members of U.S. families…..”

http://www.apa.si.edu/Curriculum%20Guide-Final/unit3.htm

The numbers of Korean adoptees in that period dwarf the next largest which is Vietnamese. (Richard Pryor gives a funny take on this trend: http://www.xsao.net/Comedy/Richard_Pryor/ Album _Is it something I said_ third track.)

Recently, other developing countries are outpacing both of these countries and it seems this will be the case for now on. Moreover, from the numbers I've seen Korean adoptions peaked about twenty years ago. For an odd reason, Minnesota seems to be the capital of Korean adoptions by americans. See the website:

http://www.akconnection.com/articles/whyMN.asp?cat=3

Or google search "korean adoptees" for other writing about this phenomeon.

Bob Mantis

08-19-05, 11:25

This is a great thread. I have been pondering for quite some time the issue of why so many AMP workers and owners are Korean. We may not have the answers, but the ideas floated here are plausible. My intuition agrees with most of Schwanger's thinking.

One point worth mentioning: While it is true that women may be driven to prostitution if they are utterly poor and need to find any means to put food on the table, disparity in wealth among people or a big drop in one's wealth over time also appears to breed misery and drive women to prostitute themselves -- i.e. not abject poverty but envy of material things. When all are poor, remarkably, there can be contentment -- because the people don't know any better and don't have someone elses wealth to be envious of. When there is great disparity, the envy can drive women to prostitution and men to thievery.

When wealth is suddenly diminished, too, the sudden sense of impoverishment can drive women into prostitution. Or, at least, this appears to be how people explain the appearance of prostitution among the schoolgirls in Japan.

Sorry, have to stop writing. I have offered up another few points, no data to back it up, yet. But, I think the ideas are sound.

Frank Booth

08-23-05, 14:16

...no data to back it up, yet. But, I think the ideas are sound.I'll take observations over so called data any day.

Contrary to the same old LE story about trafficking, slavery, etc., many of these girls do indeed come from wealthy families in Korea. I know more than a few who can't deal with their fathers any more and are out on their own working the AMPs in Connecticut/Northeast. AMPing lets them keep their lifestyle, and pride.

J Schwanger

08-31-05, 20:53

We've been asking about why the Koreans have a lock on the AMP business here in the U.S. It might help to compare two countries with deep similarities but also huge differences and how they take a different route to development.

South Korea

•~50 million people (~70 w/ N. Korea added)
•$19,200 per capita GDP (ppp)
•Ethnically and Linguistically HOMOGENEOUS. Homogeneous for most of its history.
•Sinicization and heavy confucian influence
•Brief (40 years) colonization by Japan
•Geographic Unity: a peninsula
•19% arable land
•Temperate Climate (but some snow!)
•U.S. involvement since 1950
A) Tentative plan for U.S. drawdown of forces.
B) Mandatory military service for males.
•For most of the past 50 years a sender country of immigrants, now less so.

•Monopoly on the U.S. AMP workers...chinese apartment MP's closing fast!

Philippine Islands

•90 million people
•$5,000 per capita GDP (ppp)
•Various ethnic minorities and many languages spoken
•Hispanicization and delayed sinicization
•Extended colonization period (400 + 50)
•Geographic fragmentation: an archipelago
•19% arable land
•Tropical (hot-blooded?)
•U.S. involvement since 1898.
•U.S. withdrawal around 1991.
A) as a condition of withdrawal U.S. will accept filipina/os as sailors in the Navy.
•For most of the past 100 years a sender country of immigrants to developed countries.
A) Sailors and nurses to U.S.A. Sugar plantation workers to Hawai'i in an earlier time.
B) Nannies, domestics, karaoke girls and construction workers to hong kong, tai wan, japan and middle east (saudi arabia, kuwait, emirates)

•Monopoly on the Mail order bride supply.....Watch out for Russia!

Even with some things similar--is it any wonder that SK is a first world country and monopolizes the AMP trade? You might have to speak the same language and mostly live on the same island to organize such a cartel in the PI. Even if you did have a way into the U.S. by marrying a G.I.

J Schwanger

09-04-05, 05:25

I do not think you have caused disruption to the board, everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I never doubted you on the millionare provider, I doubted your view on why they become prostitutes. And you may think I underestimate your knowledge on all this stuff. I think you know a lot. But I do too even though I am not friends with managers and mamasans or have CH2's daily sex reports.I know about the Korean gangs, trust me. Lets say I know some people in Korean gangs in Philly and NYC. I have been to the second floor of the club and bar where the real owners " hang" out. I know how they operate in every aspect not just prostitution. I have talked to Korean pimps before. I have talked to already and becoming prostitutes in the USA and Korea. I'm talking about Korean prostitutes all together, not just AMP workers or Koreas over a million sex workers. I've talked to workers who are filthy rich(not millionare rich though) and ones who really have no other option. The ones that are under 18 who were kidnapped, the ones that are taking advantage of fast cash, the ones who told there folks they were going to school in the states, the ones tricked over here, and one girl who actually quit this line of work. And none of them need or crave attention. And NO, I didn't get all my information through time and trust as a customer, I just know a lot of people. Oh and im 50/50 on you about the father thing, i've talked to girls with no father and mother most of there life and i've talked to ones with a happy family back home. You know your stories too well? You get your stories from making friends with the managers and providers over time to gain trust and information, right? Why else would you have the daily sex reports and why else would a girl tell you she has over a million bucks.Gained trust, possibly through return customer and such. Forget that phycology and library and internet stuff, everything I know is from past experiences and conversation. And don't be fooled, ofcourse a girl is going to say she is planning on quitting soon and her family is happy back home when you ask her questions during the table shower or massage. Don't even bother asking personal questions like that. I do not digest the lies they tell me when i'm a customer, all that small talk is small talk. Why would they tell you any personal information when they all have fake names like Coco and Chanel and fake ages? Sure it's more catchy then a Korean name and younger is better for business but all these girls feel shame and have a lot of things they do not wish to share. Sam Katz always knows a lot. And no I do not think all poor attractive korean women become prostitutes. I wish the best for anybody in a bad situation.

Either if they are attractive or not, prostitution should be the last resort in most cases. Lack of opportunity is sad, some people are just delt a bad hand. They lose most or all of the self respect they once had. And York, you know about NYC AMPs and the strong grip the gang has on them. It's not a great thing. And they do not give away money even though Koreans like to gamble. Dirty john money? Are you kidding me? Remember it's all about money at the end of the day.

Just letting you know I am not bashing you out and saying I have the most information and I am always right. I am just dropping a little bit of what I know, not what I think. Not hating. But what's with the PM? Why are you asking what I do for a living? That has nothing to do with anything. And that's great you been to Korea, you don't have to prove yourself to me.

Smoke and Mirrors,
True, I have never actually witnessed gangs beat a girl but I once seen the aftermath of a beating of a slaved girl at a Korean RLD. She was kidnapped at 17 and driven 5 hours away to Seoul and was drugged and raped numerous times before putting her into prostitution to make her more "pro" i guess. I did my best to make her feel better or atleast feel important. It's not a great life and no she ain't needing or craving attention.

I can go on as usual but I will stop. Nobody has one correct answer for this situation at hand. That's why theres a disagreement on this board. Let's drop this topic.

And sorry for the bad grammar, I just write to get my point across.
Sam Katz aka you know what

From the archives on the Philly AMP board posted by Sam Katz on 8-5-04.

J Schwanger

09-18-05, 02:46

where did you get this information?

sorry but most of what you said is wrong. it is a possibility about what you said about a prostitutes parents because some kids would be nowhere if there parents left them or passed away while the girl was at a young age. but they don't degrade themselves and body and have sex with strangers and tarvel overseas to work "full" time because they need and crave attention. the ones that need and crave attention are them girls with big egos and self esteems that are wearing them little skirts to show off. everything has to do with money in the longrun. __if these girls were rich, you really think they would get into this line of work to begin with?__ i agree it's hard to get out once your in, just as a guy drug dealing, your used to making 6-7 figures why go down to 5. kilgore said it correctly, they become prostitutes because of poverty, drug addiction, lack of education and opportunity. but korean girls don't become prostitutes because of drug addiction, but a lot develop the habit while working at the amp. trust me, i know in nyc amps, just the korean taxis make a hell of a lot of money just by delivering drugs to the amp for the girls. but you are wrong about tough guys and pimps beating girls up. that only happens if they were kidnapped from somewhere and shipped over here to be slaves, which is almost never the case anymore. what i can say, which is sad i think is a few percentage of girls want to do this kind of work because they are just not hard workers and they think they can become rich quick this way because they got a pretty face and a body, pretty much they don't know what's morally wrong or right. i also seen and talked to a couple slaved girls before in korea. the ones that most got to me were 2 **** prostitutes who were kidnapped and slaved. i also talked to prostitutes considering going to australia i think or the usa to work at the amp. i also talked to a nice young girl who was in a bad situation financially, just having trouble eating at night, keeping the lights on, who was contemplating prostitution. trust me, i know what i'm talking about. york, you may have asked a lot of questions to the girls you hook up with and looked it up on the internet but i know i am correct on everything i said. i can go on and on and on and on but i won't theres too much i know and seen to be said all in this post. btw, this girl told you she has 1.25 million dollars? i don't care how good she treats you or how she looks or how nice she is but how much can you respect a girl who is a millionare and still a prostitute?i know it's hard to quit but damn.

not hating on york, just not agreeing with him on everything
if you or the psychologist know what i know, you guys would agree with me

sam katz aka you know what.

more of sam katz in the philly amp board. he speculates on the motivation for korean girls getting into the business.

Bob Mantis

09-20-05, 16:39

I just met someone who defies some of the conventional ideas about why women go into prostitution. I was in Germany, visited an FKK. Met up with a Belgian/French stunner, model perfect. She is in her final year of law school. Works only once or twice a month to allow her to pay for some luxuries, but is not at all desperate for money. I might have doubted the story, but she was so intelligent, and spoke the legal jargon so convincingly that I think she is for real.

She also said that actually she does really enjoy having sex with a variety of people, so that, even though she has a boyfriend, she sometimes goes to "work", when she is feeling particulary horny (her boyfriend doesn't know it). I thought that was just a fantasy men had, that women in the profession actually enjoy sex. But, there you are. She also pointed out that one major difference about working in Germany is that prostitution is legal, and there is not such a stigma associated with working in the sex trade. She has to pay taxes on what she earns, as she would with any other job. So, some of the inhibitions about working in the sex trade are not present in Germany.

Incidentally, she was one absolutely great session!!!

James D 2004

09-26-05, 16:40

first of all, what you see depends on what you are. not long ago, south california news paper reported the bust of gangs using young and **** south american girls kept in illegal immigrant hideouts. the patrons are mostly underclass such as illegal farm workers. they can keep the price very affordable by kidnapping. if you are not that type of client, they won't sell their girls to the wrong market, and you won't want that too. so most other south californians don't even know that exists until they see the newspapers.

kidnapping into slavery should be rare in a modern society like south korean, but what do i know? it depends on historical and social factors. it's rare in asian countries with gdp comparable to south korean and lower. an average citizen looking for fun would probably find that unacceptable. there are plenty of willing providers with reasonable prices.

by poverty i mean extreme poverty. like you sold your daughter so the others can have food and shelter for a while. some parts of sk may be poor but i don't think they are that poor.

by debt i don't mean borrowing from the bank and a declaration of bankruptcy will clear all that. i mean the type you repay the money or your life. this is the classic way of recruitment. either you find them when no body else would lend you the money for a dead end cause. or they find something to hook you up so you need money to pay for it.

the most varied and interesting reason is that girls need things. this is pretty widespread. the fkk case is actually pretty modern classic. group sex is one of the trend in american schools. so what do you expect the rest of the world when age of consent is lower and nobody take that seriously. it's really no big deal if someone is willing to pay for it and you need something.

enjoy sex - who doesn't? obviously some girls like bbbj and i met one. there's also the thrill of meeting a total stranger and have sex. ugly, nasty, doesn't matter, part of the thrill. pay for play is about doing women that you don't normally date. that would include the accidental (very) older woman that you were trapped into being massaged, they get you very horny by their hands and otherwise, and then you say what the hell, let see what happens and bang away.

lack of education, opportunity. imagine asian teenage, 20's immigrants - what chance do they have for the good life? us kids start with a competitive schooling from an early age. everything are ranked, your grade, the school, the college and everything else. on the other hand, obviously they are too pretty and educated for mcdonald and wallmart. what do they do? i met a lot of these kids. all of them are students of some sort to their family, but nobody actually go to school. that include some all american girls from arkansas. they may not be high school drop outs, but instead of minimum wage, or a dead end job, they can get big money. depending on how good they are, how much they can tolerate, how fast the money they want, hooter girls, strippers, escorts, sw, all the same. met a czech girl on boyfriend visa, come to usa for a couple of months a year. a few trips later they can buy a house back home. then laugh at those with a university degree back home - everybody is poor.

sometimes girls just need things. many want a german car. i know an asian girl who want a car at 16. their parents won't give it to her and send her back to asia to tame her rebellious character. many years later she's back, now wants a upscale town house with a gym. her family is anything from poor and her sister is a preacher.

PsyberZombie

09-26-05, 19:06

There are plenty of willing providers with reasonable prices.... The most varied and interesting reason is that girls need things. This is pretty widespread..... They may not be high school drop outs, but instead of minimum wage, or a dead end job, they can get big money

So , basically , your 'Grand' Theory of Prostitution is =

Men buy Sex ; and Women sell It

THANKS , for clu·ing us all in , J·D·04 !!

James D 2004

09-26-05, 21:43

PS, that's the definition of prostitution, you miserable. Your miserable existance can be summarized as H2S like emission at both ends when you are alive, and turn into mostly CO2 when no one want to give you space after you are dead.

J Schwanger

09-27-05, 02:34

Hi bob,

Glad to hear that you had a fun time in the fatherland. And it’s a good thing you mentioned Germany, I was getting tired of always picking on the Koreans.

Apparently there are some different motivations for these girls entering this trade. I’ve been posting Sam Katz’s opinion on this. I can see the "keeping up with the Joneses" aspect of some FKK girls and kogals, but still think there's the basic economic deprivation driving most prostitution.

I gather that you have lived in germany before unification and with your visit can compare the two environments. This might shed some light on what may happen when Korea unifies. And ultimately how this affects our U.S. AMP INDUSTRY.

I simply cannot see the Koreans not unifying in my lifetime--and I plan to live another 50 years or so. They are one of the world’s most homogenous cultures. Unification of the two germanies in the modern era or the multiple principalities under Bismarck was fraught with more difficulties than I see with Korea...well other than the nukes...

There’s just this arbitrary political barrier called the DMZ and an outmoded ideology called communism holding this back. Not even china is communist anymore. And north korea is in danger of becoming even more of an anachronism.

Nevertheless, unification is destiny: no matter what periodic tantrums Kim Jong Il may throw to gum up the works. They are even toying with the idea of maquiladoras in NK for SK conglomerates as part of the Sunshine policy. South Korea has momentum on their side. Some more stats below show that.*

But, getting back to Germany. Since reunification germany has been in a malaise. Now after the elections even angie merkel won’t be able to drive home some economic reforms if she has to share power with the social democrats. A boon for the FKK's?

Furthermore, I think any gain in wage differentials between east and west germany through unification is offset by other eastern bloc nations. Why build a factory in eastern germany when you can do so in Poland, Slovakia or the Czech Republic for cheaper? And now Hyundai is considering doing just that. Even more FKK-girls!

But these things are still abstract to me and I can’t say what people are actually experiencing as I've never been to these countries. Check out one of these opinion threads where they mention welfare coming to German girls with the condition that they have to be employed as prostitutes. I’m skeptical if that really happens..but wouldn't that be something if it was true? Old Europe and USA diverging once more.

I think most of us here on this board don’t have a moral problem with prostitution. But we may differ on legalization. Some get a thrill off of the “illegal” activity. Personally, my main beef with the AMPS is that they don’t pay taxes (not even property taxes as they usually don’t own the buildings of their establishments). And yet tax-supported thoroughfares front their businesses, police on patrol prevent outright robbery (they are scarce according to James D), and you could say our overwhelming military expeditures create an way for them to get here and provide for a stable society in the U.S. and S.K.

THEN so much of the money made in AMPs flows freely overseas untaxed in remissions. I guess in some ways this money is “taxed” as it enters into casino revenue and Western Union service fees. Surely Trojan, Jergen's and Johnson & Johnson's all appreciate the added business!

Apologies for my usual long-winded post.

***MORE STATS***
__Social Welfare as a percentage of GDP__
Germany 27.4% --they like the welfare.
United Kingdom 21.8%
Canada 17.8%
Japan 16.9%
United States 14.8% --we take a lot of guff worldwide for kicking the working poor but, look who beats us.....
South Korea 6.1% --mean and lean and no free rides.

__Educational Attainment__
"...Examine younger population groups and a very different picture emerges.
Of those aged 25-34, 39 percent of Americans have a college education. But
that percentage puts the United States in seventh place among OECD nations, behind Canada (53 percent), Japan (52 percent), SOUTH KOREA (47
percent), and Finland, Norway, and Sweden (all 40 percent). Belgium ties the
United States percentage and Spain is just behind at 38 percent..."

PsyberZombie

09-27-05, 06:11

She also pointed out that one major difference about working in Germany is that prostitution is legal, and there is not such a stigma associated with working in the sex trade. She has to pay taxes on what she earns, as she would with any other job

Hookers in Germany file Income Tax Returns ??!!??

Heck , here in America , you can't even get one to give you a Receipt after the act !!

Reminds me of an Old Joke , though =

This American Hooker goes to H & R Block to get her taxes done . She tells the guy to list her occupation as "Chicken Farmer"

Why ?? , he asks

Because , she says , " I raised a thousand cocks last year "

p.s. to James D 2004 = Ad Hominem Attacks are the last refuge of the Loser in any Argument .... 'Nuff said ??

James D 2004

09-27-05, 12:56

people often hide their intellectual capacity and the fact that they know little of the world by quoting the dictionary. don't know the diff between definition and theory is one. any legal activities are taxed - that's the principle of taxes. the welfare vs prostitution news is false. you can't force anyone to do any job available or no welfare, not any civilized place.

if you see the size of the circle named materialism, i can say most of prostitution are driven by that girl want things, rather than extreme poverty. materialism can have many levels. keeping up with the jones have many levels. in the rapid developing countries, it's difficult for people to remain in poor rural areas, when they see what's happening in the big cities.

actually it's happening all over the world. in us, in my phone i have several cell numbers with middle america area codes. some prefer to keep those codes, others prefer to change to some local or big city codes. some girls take a grand in a couple of hours walking the streets if there's no interference from le and pimps. in uk, young girls gave up their wellfare and take a one-way trip to london, some ending up in the numerous private apartments at 16, instead of going home. when they are 20's there are tough competition with immigrants such as the eastern europeans. in hk, the local girls are overwhelmed by the mainland immigrants - in price and quality. but being a very materialist city many local girls can't wait to be 18 to work in the clubs specializing in young local girls. by 16 you cannot work in the clubs but that didn't stop them from working privately. le had to crack down hard to stop **** girls working in the clubs.

in western europe, wellfare is decent (in comparison) and that it's easier for girls to work in safer environments, and with their liberal attitude, it looks like they are doing it for little things. but the motivation is the same.

PsyberZombie

09-29-05, 06:37

People often hide their intellectual capacity and the fact that they know little of the world by quoting the dictionary. Don't know the diff between definition and theory is one

OOPS !! I did it again =

Definiton # 6 of THEORY is =

" An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture "

[ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theory ]

So I stand corrected = your Post # 35 really is a 'theory' ; although your 'theory' is basically that men buy sex , and women sell it

My original point in # 36 was that this is not exactly paradigm·shattering News , especially to the frequenters of this particular web site

James D 2004

09-29-05, 14:56

I told you so PZ, quoting the dictionary doesn't help to disguise your intellectual capacity. My theory is obviously trying to explain why people become prostitutes. I'm not trying to redefine prostitution. Understand?

Did you ever read a non-fiction? If I have a theory in which a fraction can be considered high impact, I would tell somebody to patch up a book for me and sell it. I didn't remember anyone in WSG attempted to develop a theory to explain why women go into prostitution. I couldn't help myself to be 1st, especially if that's only a minute's work.

PsyberZombie

10-04-05, 06:30

To : James D 2004

I've already written about my own 'Theory' of why some women become P4P workers =

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=301922&postcount=2080

YOUR 'Theory' that they do it for the money — what an Incredible In·Sight !! — has also been discussed =

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=311812&postcount=2199

James D 2004

10-04-05, 15:25

A theory tries to fit all the facts in - the cause of prostitution. In my theory, many are keywords a few posts down.

If money isn't involved, it ain't prostitution. So I'm not trying to include that. Personal misfortune has a lot to do with prostitution, it may lower the threshold of crossing into prostitution but it ain't the trigger. I maintain that they want things, be it Gucci bag or an easy way out of a poor hard live. The unfortunate ones are also more likely to be 'lack of education, opportunity'. I would put personal misfortune next to those factors.

As for strippers, some would say they are not prostitutes. Anyway, some gets grands a day while others grind you for peanuts. They all want money, for a big house, shopping money and they retire, or just to eat well and dress well.

J Schwanger

10-07-05, 07:26

Okay, knuckleheads. Quit theorizing and start watching t.v.:

http://lifetimetv.com/movies/originals/humantrafficking.html

Based on "true" stories.

Bob Mantis

10-07-05, 17:20

Okay, knuckleheads. Quit theorizing and start watching t.v.:

http://lifetimetv.com/movies/originals/humantrafficking.html

Based on "true" stories.

It still won't answer the question of why so many AMPs are Korean, unless you believe that all the women working there are sex slaves. I don't have that impression.

J Schwanger

10-07-05, 20:02

Right. It's transparently clear that most of the girls here in AMP's came on their own free will. Some may have believed the tales of all the money to be made in the U.S. And stupidity is fatal in this world and they really need to learn not to buy the sales pitch.

But if you watch tv or hear the LE perspective: this is what you get over and over. Just like in the story below.

New broom sweeps Korean brothels clean
By Ahn Mi Young

SEOUL - ''I've begun to feel at home,'' said Min Sung-Ae, a 17-year-old high-school dropout who stays at the home of Kim In-Chull, who has taken her in temporarily after she left her life as a sex worker in the South Korean capital.

''I have long forgotten this feeling of being at home,'' Min added, sobbing. She is staying at Kim's eastern Seoul home for three months as recommended by the Korean Juvenile Confederation, a civic group that has been arranging ''home-stay'' periods for runaway juveniles at the homes of volunteers.

Only weeks ago, Min was one of some 400 juvenile sex workers in the so-called ''Miari Texas Village'', an area in northeast Seoul that houses some 250 prostitution houses. In those houses, customers are served liquor and some snacks in front room, and sex services in the back room.

While their peers were busy with their computers or hanging out at shopping malls, hundreds of juvenile prostitutes like Sung-Ae in Miari Texas were spending each night with some five to 10 male guests. They usually get up to 1.5 million won ($1,340) as a monthly salary, on the top of 15,000 won ($14) for each client. Some 50,000 won go to the pocket of the owner.

Prostitution is illegal in South Korea, but is tolerated as an open secret - as long as a prostitute is not a minor under the age of 18.

But it is common knowledge that more than 30 percent of about 1,000 sex workers in Miari Texas are under age, most of whom are runaway kids from financially-troubled homes, like Sung-Ae. ''I found an ad in a 'flea paper' (a town newspaper with a lot of advertisements in it) talking about much more handsome pay than that offered by factories,'' said Min. When she got to Miari Texas in 1998, Min started out handling money first. Then she moved into serving liquor to guests, and then was forced to provide sex to clients. ''Then I felt there was nothing more to lose,'' Min recalled.

For a long time, places like Miari Texas operated smoothly with what critics say was protection from policemen, who are believed to be bribed regularly to let them be.

Many of the rooms or so-called ''glass boxes'' inside the place have a secret exit - such as under the bed or behind a wall next to the bed - in case of a police raid. ''Even if a policemen came here, he would just see the front room without checking the secret backdoor,'' said a former owner of one such place.

But things began changing at the start of the year - which led to Min's departure from Miara Texas - when a new police chief dared disturb the status quo. On January 5, a new woman police chief took office in the district of Miari and said she meant business in keeping juvenile prostitutes out of her area of jurisdiction. The first thing Kim Gang-ja, 55, did as police chief was to declare an all-out battle against sex dens that have juvenile sex workers.

Social workers say that while the campaign does not deal with adult sex workers at all - the move against juveniles may well be the push needed to change the lives of more than 500,000 estimated minor sex workers across the nation and get them to return home.

Kim's clean-up was not the first. Previous efforts that began with a bang fizzled out, not least due to links between employers and police who get grease money.

Today, however, there is little of the old hustle and bustle around the Miari Texas street of Wolgok-dong. Some 100 of the 250 houses there have already suspended business, their glass windows shuttered with dark, thick curtains. There are now no customers around. Kim organized a special night time team to patrol the area between 11pm and 4am to discourage pimps trying to lure customers into the red-light district.

''Who would like to come to us, when police staff are living with us?,'' asked the owner of a prostitution house in Miari Texas.

The owner of the brothel where Min Sung-ae used to work, like others, in the end decided to let the 16 minors among 31 sex workers in his place go home. But since Min's family had moved from its old home, she was handed over to the Korean Juvenile Confederation for the time being.

The police chief, Kim, had planned her clean-up operation carefully, and began by being frank with the brothel owners. On January 8, Kim Gang-Ja invited owners of 110 brothels in Miari and made it clear to them that she would not tolerate minor prostitutes working there. She told the owners to promise never to hire juveniles to do sex work. Then, she ordered a stop to sex-oriented advertisements in ''flea papers'' and stickers in public toilets. She even went after pimps who lured minors into the industry by calling them through mobile phones or beepers.

Not everybody cooperated with her immediately, but a raid in February made it clear she would not buckle down. On February 7, police made a surprise swoop on 100 brothels in Miari Texas, and found out that some 70 of them had been hiring minors. All of their owners were arrested.

''I think that I must shut down or move to another place to do business,'' said one owner of a ''glass box'' in the Miari.

The crackdown in Miari has not shut down the industry, though. Indeed, many of the minor sex workers expelled from Miari are known to be going to other places to continue business. Some 40 brothels have already moved to surburbs like Paju, admitted the police station which Kim Gang-ja heads. Said Kim: ''I do not believe that I can root out juvenile prostitution overnight. But I will continue to fight until it is rooted out.''

Already, her campaign seems to be catching on. Jo Jung-Mi is the 25-year-old new chief of a police substation in Kim's district, who took office on February 10. ''I won't allow my younger sisters to fall prey,'' she said.

(Inter Press Service)
http://www.atimes.com/koreas/BC01Dg01.html

Bob Mantis

10-09-05, 23:46

Thanks for that report. It was very important. It does suggest that there is an avenue by which juveniles get channeled into prostitution in Korea. What still needs to be answered to understand why so many AMPs in the US are Korean run and staffed, are

1) Are there different reasons for juveniles in Korea to go into these places of prostitution than in other countries?
2) Is it more common for juveniles in Korea to go into prostitution, than in other countries?
3) Once juveniles have started in prostitution, is it more difficult for them to ever escape that life and to reenter mainstream than in other countries?
4) Once they have entered prostitution, why do they come to the US to work in AMPs? Are they forced? Or, do they do it willingly? How do they get here? Legally? Illegally? Do they stay in the US? Or, do they come only for a short while and return?

Just a few more quesitons to think about.

J Schwanger

10-13-05, 18:50

Bob,

I think there might be some truth to what James D is saying about these girls going into prostitution in desire of "stuff". In a way, the younger generation has transitioned from large scale prostitution just to survive to prostitution as a way to get material wealth or status. This seems to be very similar to Japan's case as you mentioned.

In the post of 9-26 below I quote a statistic for the education of the 25-34 cohort in SK vs. US. From those numbers, you can see there is a big difference between the US and SK. We've all heard the stories of youngsters in Japan killing themselves over poor college entrance exam scores. The intense focus on schooling in SK is just like the Juku (cram schools) in japan. More on this in the article below.

So it might seem to these girls that if they don't ready themselves and put themselves in the best light during those crucial high school years, then their chances are extremely limited. But the desire is still there, the materialism of a recently affluent society. So, they think "why not? " It's a pretty easy job, afterall.

......................................................................................................
Today, 674, 154 high school seniors and graduates will take the College Scholastic Ability Test in an all-day session at 876 test centers around the country. To help the students reach their test centers, traffic will be eased by allowing most government and private-sector employees to report to work at 10 a. M. , one hour later than usual.

Domestic airlines will be banned from landing and taking off for two brief periods--from 8: 40 to 8: 55 a. M. , and from 3: 50 to 4: 10 p. M. --to lower noise that might interfere with test takers during the listening comprehension section of the test.

<<<Imagine a society so FOCUSED on study! Can you see us stopping the NY Stock Exchange, commercial flights, traffic, all commerce so our kids can take the SAT? Are we falling behind because we don't?>>>

The examination will largely determine which university the students can hope to enter in the fall. The quality and reputation of the university can determine the future success of a student.

JoongAng Daily

"We had two operational pauses in training, " says Lt. Col. Steven Boylan of the Eighth U. S. Army, "to make sure we didn't disturb the students' concentration. No gunnery practice. No aviation. U. S. Forces are here [37, 000 strong] at the request of the South Korean government. We couldn't be here unless they wanted us. We're not an occupational force. We're guests in this country and have to be sensitive to our hosts. Have we always been the best guests? No. Can we be better? Sure. Are we trying? Most definitely. After the recent typhoon, hundreds of soldiers, sailors and Marines volunteered in their off-duty time to help in the cleanup. I was proud of them. "

Bob Mantis

10-14-05, 06:42

Bob Mantis

10-14-05, 07:13

We need to consider why so many Korean women are in AMPs, not working as SWs or escorts. I think there is an "AMP mentality" that appeals to the Korean women.

AMPs offer

1) somewhat more security than streetwalking
2) they don't require that the workers necessarily speak English -- that's up to the mamasan. No new immigrant could be an escort before learning to speak English
3) higher volume than SWing or escorting -- at least the ones I've visited
4) company of other women, when not with a customer
5) cooked (Korean) food
6) until recently, police did not pay as much attention to AMPs as to SWs
7) AMPs are similar to the typical biz in Korea, so many of the Korean women feel immediately comfortable in an AMP
8) Enough Korean women have paved the way in the AMP trade that it's just easier to work in a Korean MP than to try other sex work. The Korean mamasans know how to run the biz and they do it well.

So, AMPs appeal to new immigrants, who are often the ones who really want "stuff". There are not so risky, and offer company, good food, and still lots of $$$. In comparison, non-Asian (caucasian) women can more easily work as escorts.

My sometime girlfriend (Korean) told me that before the recent police crackdowns, she was making 20k a month at AMPs!!! (Geez! I should just latch on to one of these women and let her support me in the style to which I would like to get accustomed! Maybe I want "stuff" too!!!). She has been in the US long enough to speak reasonably good English, so she did try escorting. She gave it up after a while, because, even though she charged more, there were fewer customers, and it was scary working out of her own apartment. So, she went back to the AMPs.

With all these considerations, I think I understand why a Korean woman immigrant would choose to work in an AMP. But, aren't the forces and attractions of AMPs the same for other Asian women? I still can't figure out why there are so few Japanese AMPs, especially if there used to be so many. Why aren't there more AMPs run by other Asian women?

James D 2004

10-14-05, 18:47

apparently there are some cultural and political factors other than just pure economics alone. the korean **** girl's story didn't explain alot. though i'm surprised that korean's are so relaxed about **** prostitution until now. the other countries like thailand, philipines were forced to do something about it when the us barked at **** sex tourism.

prostitution is legal or almost legal in most countries except usa. age of consent is different but countries can limit the age of girls who work in brothels. so 18 is the norm in asia but if i'm right, it's perfectly legal for 16 year olds to work as prostitutes in say britain. prostitution is illegal in theory but they tolerate single workers in a house or apartment, so they cannot add rules to regulate prostitution. so if you are talking about runaways and starting early, britain has more potential.

i doubt very much that koreans are number one by number in us.

J Schwanger

10-16-05, 17:48

We've already established the monopoly of Koreans on the AMP industry (with some doubts by James D). And as Bob Mantis remarks (10-14) the AMP provides a familiar cultural environment (food, language, etc.)

Now, let's assume that a lot of the children of first generation Korean-American immigrants retain a lot of korean culture and can speak the language. One must ask: why don't they ever "backslide" into the AMP. I think the article below offers one answer to this question.

As you read, consider three things hidden in this article:
1) Only Korean-American _females_ (Kim sisters, Ms. Oh and Prof. Park) are interviewed.
2) From looking at this ethnic subgroup, the author tries to make a generalization applying to all "Asian" immigrants. A patently false conclusion. More on that later.
3) Both the Kims' father and Prof. Park received their graduate schooling in the U.S. However, received K-12 and college in SK. This is the same for Michelle Wie's parents and scores of others.

.................................................................

New York Times

By ALEX WILLIAMS
Published: October 16, 2005

WHEN they were growing up, Dr. Soo Kim Abboud and Jane Kim used to sit, like many children, in the shopping cart next to the candy racks at the checkout line and wail loudly, hoping that their humiliated mother or father would cave in and shush them with a Snickers bar.

But their parents, who were hard-working middle-class immigrants from Korea, had other ideas. Eventually they set a rule: Read one book from the library this week, receive one candy bar the next. Looking back on it, the sisters are not complaining. Instead, in "Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers - and How You Can Too" (Berkley), to be published Nov. 1, they applaud their parents' coercions. "We read the book, and we got the candy," said Dr. Abboud, 32, who is a surgeon and clinical assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania medical school. "We didn't go without."

In "Top of the Class" the Kim sisters advise parents who want successful children to raise them just as the Kims did - in strict households in which parents spend hours every day educating their children, where access to pop culture is limited, and where children are taught that their failures reflect poorly on the family.

But while this approach is common in many Asian countries and among many immigrant groups in the United States, it runs counter to an American culture that celebrates if not venerates self-expression and the freedom of youth. (This is, after all, the country that invented the teenager.) And some educators believe such a single-minded focus on achievement can be harmful. "Often I will see Asian-American kids become lost when they get to the university," said Kyeyoung Park, an associate professor of anthropology and Asian studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, who teaches many first-generation Asian students. "They feel disoriented, because they realize they've been sheltered and the world is not as their parents said it was."

Still, the sisters insist that in an age in which competition to succeed has never been greater and American parents are spending thousands of dollars on tutors and counseling for their children, traditional Asian methods are proven to work. They note that students of Asian descent make up about 25 percent of undergraduates at top universities like Stanford and Penn (and 41 percent at the University of California, Berkeley), even though Asians are less than 4 percent of the population, and that as of 2002 Asian-Americans had a median household income about $10,000 higher than the national average.

Part of their motivation for writing the book, the sisters say, was to counter the assumption that Asian students perform better simply because they are smarter. "My sister and I are not exceptionally gifted," said Dr. Abboud. "We're O.K. This is something anyone can do. It doesn't take a lot of money or private schools just to get kids learning on a daily basis."

As children the Kims were not learning on a daily basis, but an hourly one. One daughter's C-minus in biology could cast shame upon them all, so the Kim family reviewed each report card as a group in order to strategize about how each child could address weaknesses. The Kim parents also insisted their daughters come straight home to study after school instead of hanging out with friends (whom they could see on weekends only), and limited each girl to one hour of television a week and 15 minutes on the phone a day.

Every night the girls would complete hours of homework assigned by teachers and then do more lessons with their parents. Even artistic pursuits were approached with achievement in mind. Both girls played the piano and won several prizes.

"Our parents viewed competition as a necessary and unavoidable part of life," explained Ms. Kim, 29, who has a law degree from Temple University and works as an immigration specialist at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. "They wanted us to embrace, not fear, it."

Dr. Abboud and Ms. Kim, who were educated in public high schools, believe that Asian-Americans succeed in part because Asian parents are willing to sacrifice their own leisure time to micromanage their children's educational progress. While neither woman has children - Dr. Abboud is married to an orthopedic surgeon, Ms. Kim is single - they don't hold back from prescribing parenting advice. "It's tough, because parents are so much more busy now," Dr. Abboud acknowledged. "Not many could do the three hours of teaching that we had. Even we couldn't do that. But you can still do 45 minutes."

They are less understanding about what they view to be a particularly pernicious form of American overindulgence. "Too many parents now are into positive reinforcement for everything," explained Dr. Abboud. "In America people are so scared about doing anything that might negatively impact their children that they applaud every little thing they do. In Asia they expect both effort and results."

Both Kim sisters recall struggling at times with their parents' discipline and expectations. Dr. Abboud said she felt alienated and lonely at times during high school in Raleigh, N.C., and Ms. Kim, who was more gregarious and rebellious, initially wanted to be a writer. Her parents gave her a year after college to pursue it, but after Ms. Kim's efforts to find a job at a magazine foundered, she agreed to go to law school. Today she is happy she did. "American parents will say, 'Do whatever makes you happy, even if the talent isn't there,' " Ms. Kim said. "You need a reality check."

The Kim parents moved from South Korea to Los Angeles in 1971 so Mr. Kim could study computer science at the University of Southern California and pursue a more comfortable life in this country. Mr. Kim, who had been a math teacher in Korea, arrived in the United States with only a few hundred dollars and went to work as a janitor for a time to make ends meet before eventually finding work as a network manager in telecommunications. His wife, Dae Kim, worked 14-hour days as a seamstress before Soo was born.

For immigrants like the Kim parents, pursuing a life organized around the single principle of career achievement makes a certain sense because their children will be rewarded by better lives. Still, the relentless pressure to succeed can backfire. Peter A. Spevak, a psychologist who runs the Center for Applied Motivation in Rockville, Md., where he strives to help patients build career success, says that children who are pushed too hard may eventually prosper but can end up being "very frustrated" adults who feel like they "missed their own childhood."

"They can become a successful attorney," Dr. Spevak said, "but there's an emptiness to them."

The authors themselves acknowledge that Asian career values can be hazardous to one's health if taken to an extreme degree, as in Japan, where pressures to excel in an exam-focused educational system have been linked with high dropout rates, social withdrawal and suicide. "That's one stereotype we don't want to perpetuate," said Dr. Abboud, who said rules of the house should be strict but not oppressive.

Without even considering the psychic costs, American readers might find the book's narrow definition of success myopic in a country with such a vast plate of career options to sample from. Even some first-generation Asian-Americans do.

One such person is Minya Oh, a host for the New York radio station Hot 97 who goes by the on-air name Miss Info. Ms. Oh grew up on the South Side of Chicago, where her Korean-born parents owned a toy store. Like the Kims, the Oh parents pushed their daughter relentlessly and hoped that the academic intensity found at the nearby University of Chicago would rub off on her. They tirelessly attempted to steer her toward a career as an architect, she said, even though she had no interest in math or buildings.

Unfortunately for her parents, it was the rap music she heard around the neighborhood, not the hushed conversation on the campus, that made Ms. Oh prick up her ears. Her parents, she said, were gravely concerned when she decided to pursue her love of hip-hop as a career. They still are. After a decade of writing for magazines and appearing on radio and television, Ms. Oh still must endure her mother's reminders that it is not too late for, say, law school. The needling still rankles Ms. Oh, who said she considers herself a rebel against the old-world Asian success ethic.

But she is not sure her voice would be heard daily by 2.2 million listeners without it.

"Even when you rebel as a Korean-American child, you can only rebel so much," Ms. Oh said. "You have no option of absolutely falling off the overachiever wagon and being a schlump."

James D 2004

10-16-05, 18:49

For the Korean girls that are here illegally, I would propose the following reason, that the Korean gangs are historically powerful back home and have a strong hold in US. I have no data to support this but other reasons are simply not unique to Korea. Think about the Russia Mafia. They are strong in Eastern Europe but it's hard for them to be invisible here. The Korean gangs bring girls here, just the LA Korean market can absorb all the girls, if not, they allow the Chinese to use their surplus. You have to speak Korean to see the better girls and you have a lot more choice. Similar for Chinese. I couldn't imagine that you have to speak Russian to get the Russia Mafia girls.

The Japanese are out of the question by economics alone. Who put the US auto industry in trouble? The Chinese situation is similiar but there's differences. Mainland China PRC is a communist country, has tight control on it's citizens, at least until recent years, and that gangs aren't easy to operate. Not a large home base as in S Korea perhaps. Taiwan isn't big, belong to the Asian tigers I think, and it's a big tiger, not just a city. Who put the US semiconductor foundries out of business? Hong Kong is just a large city.

Bob Mantis

10-16-05, 23:31

I think James D is right. One thing that we all notice is that there seems to be a constant supply of new girls at the AMPs. Partly this is because the girls rotate from AMP to AMP. There are Korean taxi drivers who specialize in taking the girls from one AMP to another, as was revealed in the big AMP busts over the summer.

But, there has to be a constant supply of new girls coming from Korea, too. That means that there is a supply chain, in which the taxi drivers play only a small part. How the supply chain works is not clear to me. There is probably a network of Korean gang members on both sides of the Pacific who arrange transportation and visas for the girls. It may be that it is all voluntary, involving mostly women who are already in the sex trade in Korea, who just need someone to help them to get to the US. Or, in the worst case, it could be that innocent girls are tricked into coming to the US for supposedly high-paying waitressing jobs. But, that would work only for girls coming from the poor rural areas, because S. Korea is today almost a first-world country. My impression is that the first case is most likely.

The fact that so many AMPs are Korean owned and staffed probably is due to a more effective supply chain from Korea than from other countries. It may be that the Chinese supply chain is just starting to be built up, since it is only recently that Chinese society has opened up economically, and many of the forces that drive women to prostitution have only become strong recently. In this thread, we've already talked about how the growing disparity in wealth could drive some women to prostitution -- they want to have the same material wealth as their neighbor.

For the Korean girls that are here illegally, I would propose the following reason, that the Korean gangs are historically powerful back home and have a strong hold in US. I have no data to support this but other reasons are simply not unique to Korea. Think about the Russia Mafia. They are strong in Eastern Europe but it's hard for them to be invisible here. The Korean gangs bring girls here, just the LA Korean market can absorb all the girls, if not, they allow the Chinese to use their surplus. You have to speak Korean to see the better girls and you have a lot more choice. Similar for Chinese. I couldn't imagine that you have to speak Russian to get the Russia Mafia girls.

The Japanese are out of the question by economics alone. Who put the US auto industry in trouble? The Chinese situation is similiar but there's differences. Mainland China PRC is a communist country, has tight control on it's citizens, at least until recent years, and that gangs aren't easy to operate. Not a large home base as in S Korea perhaps. Taiwan isn't big, belong to the Asian tigers I think, and it's a big tiger, not just a city. Who put the US semiconductor foundries out of business? Hong Kong is just a large city.

James D 2004

10-17-05, 20:51

I think the Koreans are very visible but not number one by number. That should belong to the Chinese. In LA we have Korean town in LA, Garden Grove in Orange County, Little Saigon, etc etc, but all the strip malls along I 10 from outside Pasadena to Diamond Bar, that's across most of LA, looked like China town. That is not all, the same thing along 210 across LA, and I guess all the way up to the San Gabriel mountains, and down south to 60. And then there is San Fran in the west coast and NY in the east coast.

The longest visa wait is China and India. Since there's not much Indian population in socal, Chinese presence is huge and could easily out number the Korean prostitutes.

If you are Asian and you have to pick a girl by nationality, you choice is either your own nationality and Korean. Thai, Philipina etc aren't in demand. If you don't go to brothels often, or you seldom see the same girl, Koreans almost guarantee decent service. So when the price comes down to the same $120, cheaper with younger and prettier girls, the Korean girls are very popular with the Chinese population.

James D 2004

10-18-05, 16:42

KMP's are the format of traditional Korean/Japanese brothels and they bring it over will little change in principle. After all, originally they are for the Asian locals in US.

Though brothel culture is deep in Japanese/Korean/China, in modern days the Koreans still treat it as an art, while the Chinese treat it as a business. Even in US, the better KMPs are well decorated under the supervision of the Mamasan. I have seen one with well thought out simple and stylish furnitures in each room. The Chinese private apartments in SGV or Pasadena used to be dumps with baskets of dirty towels on open sight. Now most have decent plumbing and clean bathrooms that the girls can live in. In OC, some Chinese MP's are clinically clean, but they disguise as clinics. But as a rule, they never put their hearts in their decoration. The most they do, as in an OC house, is that they decorate the house as if a normal family lives in it. You can see the price tag on the table lamp. I laughed when I saw what's in the picture frame on top of the TV, it's the stock picture that goes with the frame.

The Mamasan coaches the girls, and the girls receive training one way or the other. When they moves they put in some grace into it, and they are not shy. They treat different positions equally, not as if you are a pervert or something. They are proud of their special moves - usually slight deviations from the norm. I couldn't forget the Asian cowgirl, which all girls young and old do it gracefully, and the doggies when they turn their heads to ask me to go easy on them.

In comparison, the Chinese girls are lack of training all the world over. The more unusual the position, the more they seen it as a form of degradation, and their goal is to preserve their self respect, or don't want other clients or peers to hear how low they would go to please their clients. This is especially true for the younger girls. They dont' need to please their clients. They just move on to new brothels with brand new clients.

If you have been around long enough, the mamasan and the Korean girls only have sex in their minds. They exchange experience and learn from each other. The Chinese management and the girls are non sexual in their conversation. Indeed if you listen to them, you don't realize you are in a brothel. They talk like Uncle and Niece. Even in the brothels where the girls owe big money, they talk like a big family. I think it is their way to legitimize their own existence. I'm in it to support my family. I'm in it to survive. I'm sell pussy to pay my debts.

Bob Mantis

10-18-05, 19:39

JD,

I agree with your observations. Here in the US, and in particular in LA, there may be many more non-Korean prostitutes than Korean, but the Koreans do own and run most of the massage parlors, as opposed to apartments. They also do it well. Indeed, may of their MP-brothels have a touch of class.

It's kind of strange. We think of there being traditional Asian brothels, with a touch of class, where the women treat the men royally. However, I just came back from Europe, so I was reminded of how things are over there. I spent ten years in Europe. There are spas/saunas in Europe that are more lavish than anything I have seen in the US. Some have amazing furnishings, fireplaces, plush beds, swimming pools, exercise machines, and the most expensive bathroom shower fixtures. The women are usually caucasian, and they can be as good in blowing/fucking as any Korean, here in the LA area.

So, the Koreans may "own" the MP business in the US, but they are not necessarily any more talented than the caucasians in Europe. So, while we may think there is an Asian brothel tradition, it's not entirely unique. The Europeans could give the Koreans a run for their money. It's just that in the US, they would have a harder time, because they couldn't run such businesses in the open and in nice parts of town. So, I think they prefer not to. Why not stay in Europe, where prostitution is legal in many countries and the standard of living is just as good, if not better than in the US?

So, back to the point about Korean AMPs... So, maybe Koreans dominate the AMP scene for a range of reasons. They outcompete other Asian groups, because they have a better supply chain than other groups and they provide better service. They have imported a tradition from Korea, and maintained the belief that service matters, as taught by the mamasan. And, they are more willing to take the risk to set up MPs here in the US than, say, Europeans are. They do well in the US, also, because Asian women are still considered somewhat exotic. In the setting of a one-hour AMP visit, they do give the impression of being much more willing to please the man than American women do. (Of course, if you ever have one of these women as a girlfriend, you will learn that they are not much different from American women in that they want "stuff", too).

KMP's are the format of traditional Korean/Japanese brothels and they bring it over will little change in principle. After all, originally they are for the Asian locals in US.

Though brothel culture is deep in Japanese/Korean/China, in modern days the Koreans still treat it as an art, while the Chinese treat it as a business. Even in US, the better KMPs are well decorated under the supervision of the Mamasan. I have seen one with well thought out simple and stylish furnitures in each room. The Chinese private apartments in SGV or Pasadena used to be dumps with baskets of dirty towels on open sight. Now most have decent plumbing and clean bathrooms that the girls can live in. In OC, some Chinese MP's are clinically clean, as they disguise as clinics.

The Mamasan coaches the girls, and the girls receive trainning one way or the other. When they moves they put in some grace into it, and they are not shy. They treat different positions equally, not as if you are a pervert or something. I couldn't forget the Asian cowgirl, which all girls young and old do it gracefully, and the doggies when they turn their heads to ask me to go easy on them.

In comparison, the Chinese girls are lack of training all the world over. The more unusual the position, the more they seen it as a form of degradation, and their goal is to preseve their self respect, or don't want other clients or peers to hear how low they would go to please their clients. This is especially true for the younger girls. They dont' need to please their clients. They just move on to new brothels with brand new clients.

If you have been around long enough, the mamasan and the Korean girls only have sex in their minds. They exchange experience and learn from each other. The Chinese management and the girls are non sexual in their conversation. Indeed if you listen to them, you don't realize you are in a brothel. TBC

J Schwanger

10-18-05, 20:15

A little story about a trip to a No. Cal KAMP. This was about 4 years ago.

When I got in the room there was some kind of techno playing. Trance, I think. It was piped into the room. The girl came in. She was definitely a younger one. No mystery what happened next.

After the oral pleasures had finished, she left the room to get a towel.

While she's gone she asks them to turn up the music entering into the room. She came back and after a while she starts dancing. AS If she's in a club.

Not much of a dancer (and not so sure what I'm supposed to do here) I just stared as she danced to the techno. And finished getting dressed.

Interesting behavior. Pretty sure I wouldn't find that at a chinese run AMP. This made a certain impression on me. This girl was definitely not a "sex slave." SHE JUST WANTED TO HAVE FUN.

Bob Mantis

10-18-05, 21:08

So, now that we've settled the question about Korean AMPs. What do we talk about now?

Ciao!

James D 2004

10-20-05, 03:26

I would say lavishness and culture are rather different things. Say the most expensive clubs in HK, 2nd to perhaps Japan, are listed on the local stock exchange. I bet they are amongst the most lavish in the world, as they have the highest density of MBZ, and no one drives C class there. Many saunas are palace like.

Brothels could be for the elite only, but the majority attracts losers to spend money more than they can afford.

I mentioned the well decorated KMP for their attitude more than anything else. Imagine that it's East LA, Bell Garden, industrial area, mixed with supermarket and shops with only Spannish at the front. The MP is the only shop with flower bed lining the front door. I doubt if anyone would notice if the mamasan brought boxy night stands from Wallmart. But even in the smallest room that can put a small bed and a tiny makeup table, she put in an all glass table with a stylish metal frame and legs. It wouldn't cost much more than a Wallmart night stand, but she put her heart into it. Moreover, she selected different theme dresses for all the girls every week. Same dress but different color and slightly different adaption by the girls. Very impressive lineup.

The Korean way of brothel sex is a different breed. At the end I just lied there, they do everything better than me. Take reverse missionary, they can charge better than me, even with better timing than myself. It couldn't be. I thought only I know when I'm going to cum and how far from it, but they seem to know it too. And the Asian cowgirl - as the song goes "Nobody does it better", and the other girls don't even try. And the blowjobs - often looked like a tea ceremony, or a shashimi chef in action. I have seen one many times and once she started dancing in bed before and during making love to me. You can imagine a stripper dancing while making love but a totally different dance. More like horizontal. Like she brushed me with her well trimmed short pubic hairs. All completely safe sex suitable for high volume brothels.

For the typically younger looking private apartment Korean girls, you would think they know less, and they have less incentive to please you, as they rotate girls often and that the money is less than MP. But what do I know. A pretty teenage lookalike, worked like a writing artist using a huge pen oriental type. She dapped a large pool of ink (siliva) on my ankle, then spread around my body and limbs in one stroke (of her tongue), that sent me shivering.

LexLuther

10-22-05, 20:23

J Schwanger,

This is an interesting thread. But why, I'd like to know, is it a pressing issue?

LexLuther

James D 2004

10-23-05, 21:05

Having said so many good things about Korean, the MP format have to adapt or go. You have to pay at least $40 to see the girl and there is no refund if they give you a 40 year old woman. Good ones don't need this, which only keep open the numerous MPs without decent girls.

Good MPs give you a lineup on occasion for special clients. Hard to pick. Sometimes they will let you see the girl 1st if you insist. They know you will not reject her. In the worst case they keep your money but let you come in free next time when somebody decent is on duty. So it doesn't matter for the good MPs.

Nice Koreans are not only limited to MP's, so the MP format may not survive for long. Korean town nice apartment girls are sold as escorts for some $220 compared to $140 for MPs, comparable quality. The girls usually looks younger at early twenties but overall comparable. Then basically you can get young Korean girls in any Chinese private apartment. No need for MP's and cheaper at $120. Mostly for Asian only but enough apartments for everybody. Some at $180, San Fran Golden Flower quality. Some charge $150 which should not be worse than MPs, but they take advantage that many good MP's are busted recently. They even spread down south to OC, where $150 almost guarantee nice MP comparable quality.

Several MPs let you pick from a pool. They are doing rather well, Hou previously of Southgate, Le Sun at Ingelwood. But somehow they don't attract top Korean talents. It's not good for the girl since everyone picks her and she cannot pick clients. It's not good for the MP since many would rather wait.

Similiar problems in private apartments. You only pay if you like the girl. Some people spend most time looking around and rarely commit. But that's not a big problem. For known good clients, if they don't have one on site, they can call another and then another. Other clients they can say that's all they have today. For the undesirable ones, there's nobody on duty today.

Escorts, brothels, SW are well defined except all hell broke lose in USA. I have seen all American teenagers, healthy, beautiful, prefer to earn big money on the streets rather than the other options. The end format is different but there are really not a lot of difference in rural / small town America compared with rural Korea. Later.

Bob Mantis

10-25-05, 12:17

J Schwanger,

This is an interesting thread. But why, I'd like to know, is it a pressing issue?

LexLuther

Not really pressing, but if you ever fall in love with one of the Korean women working at an AMP, you do start to wonder why so many of the AMP workers are Korean. You can't help but wonder what their motivation is, and whether they are working out of choice or being forced to work. At least, that's why I started wondering...

Bob Mantis

10-28-05, 15:37

Yesterday, after a very pleasant session with my favorite Korean, I asked her about her take on all the police activity. I've known her for almost three years, since she started work. She told me something that does not agree with the police stories. She dismissed the idea that any Korean women are being forced to work at AMPs. She says that the truth is that these women know full well what they are getting into, when they come to the US. They are paid $30K to $60K up front to get them to come to work, and that is the debt that they have to pay back. Some of them figure that when the police bust the AMPs, they get more sympathy if they cry foul, and they might even get a free green card and get to stay in the US.

If this is true, then there are no sex slaves per se from Korea. They are scamming the police to get their green cards, so they can stay in the US!

Bob Mantis

10-29-05, 00:54

...So, maybe Koreans dominate the AMP scene for a range of reasons. They outcompete other Asian groups, because they have a better supply chain than other groups and they provide better service. They have imported a tradition from Korea, and maintained the belief that service matters, as taught by the mamasan. And, they are more willing to take the risk to set up MPs here in the US than, say, Europeans are. They do well in the US, also, because Asian women are still considered somewhat exotic. In the setting of a one-hour AMP visit, they do give the impression of being much more willing to please the man than American women do. (Of course, if you ever have one of these women as a girlfriend, you will learn that they are not much different from American women in that they want "stuff", too).

One more reason why Asian women, not just Korean women, do well in AMPs in the US is that they keep a younger appearance at an age when most caucasian women show wrinkles and sag. Plus, they are more likely to be slender and petite than American women. I know that I love a petite, slender Asian woman!

J Schwanger

11-01-05, 10:42

James D 2004

11-07-05, 01:53

Look at it anther way, only illegal Canadians are less than illegal Koreans! So I maintain that in no way the Koreans are leading by numbers, just that they are visible in a way. Store front KMP are rather out standing format. All others use hotels and private apartments. Also some saw the opportunity to open an MP in some smaller cities, not in East or West Coast, with 40, 50 year old Korean woman. This is unthinkable for say Chinese. The age of the women as in the news say it all. You cannot attract good talents as the business opportunity isn't that good. Chinese will probaby think of some other business, and 40, 50 year old Chinese would less likely to think that they can still do the job, and more likely they will think of other things to do and less die hard than the Koreans.

I think illegal Canadians and Koreans are mostly woman. I couldn't imagine a lot of man come to compete for the job market. But Canadian women can just cross the border and earn big money by providing, so are the Korean woman. Chinese would be more equal in the numbers of both sexes. 55K is about one and a half small city in north LA. There could be at least 10 to 20 such cities with mostly Chinese. Huge numbers in SF, NY. So there should be some business opportunities for Chinese men. But women always have the advantage that you know they can repay any debt. The system is the same for different Asian women. You can borrow big money, or promise the smugglers big money, and you repay when you get here.

Bob Mantis

11-15-05, 14:18

This might help us get a handle on numbers. At MOST, there is 55,000 South Koreans here with out papers. This is half the number of chinese, though I suspect in SK's case it is heavily skewed towards women, and in china's the number is mostly men.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf

Heading No. 7 Estimated Unauthorized Immigrants by Selected States and Countries of Origin: 2000.

Also note under Heading No. 6 how the number of asylum seekers dipped around the turn of the century and is now moving back up. (there might be a few of these that are AMP girls who testify after a raid and get the green card in exchange.)

I think that we could get more accurate numbers from the police, though I would hesitate to ask. After the big bust in July this summer, they should have a pretty good idea of the size and extent of the network.

Based on what I hear from the women working at the KMPs, I doubt that there are many true sex slaves from Korea. Most are here for the $$$. But, most are not that happy to be in their line of work. I hear that often, when I have seen a woman often enough that she opens up and talks more. Some really regret that they made the decision to come to the US.

Bob Mantis

11-16-05, 01:19

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?

pid=10000039&refer=columnist_pesek&sid=aL7IcVmTk9JU

From Bloomberg.com:

It's a question officials here in Asia are being posed more and more: Why are your economies so vibrant?

Answers include young and swelling populations, decreased debt, growing cities, emerging middle-class consumer sectors, evolving markets and, of course, China's rise.

Add this to that list: Women and their increasing role in Asia's economies. The idea is that the more opportunities women have, the more vibrant economies are and, consequently, the less need there is to amass a huge public debt to boost growth.

It's an idea bolstered by a new survey by MasterCard International Inc., which compares the socioeconomic level of women with men in 13 Asia-Pacific nations. The gauge uses four key indicators: participation in the labor force, college education, managerial positions and above-median income.

Which Asian nation is doing best when it comes to women's advancement? Thailand. It scored 92.3 of a possible 100, and according to MasterCard's index, 100 equals gender equality. The survey was based on interviews with 300 to 350 women in 13 nations and national statistics.

Malaysia came in second with a score of 86.2, while China came in third with 68.4. The average score in Asia was 67.7.

At the bottom of the list is South Korea (45.5), followed by Indonesia (52.5) and Japan (54.5).

This is probably a contributing factor in the high level of prostitution in an otherwise rising industrial nation. And, having entered the life of prostitution in Korea, women just hop across the Pacific Puddle to the US to continue the trade. I think it's the older or less attractive women who come over here, but we in the US are just not clued into the fact that Asian women look much younger than caucasian women of the same age. It always amazes me that the women we think are only 20 turn out to be in their 40's and 50's.

Ciao!

Bill Bradsky

02-09-06, 19:47

As has been pointed out on this thread, since the big Fed bust (Whitespider) of Amps for "trafficking" (a joke) there has been an increase in the prices charged.

As the price increases more women want to enter a business where 100k+ can be made by an unskilled immigrant. The crackdowns thus have the net effect of bring more women into the business they are trying to stop.

BB

Benchseats Rock

07-04-06, 02:55

Look at it anther way, only illegal Canadians are less than illegal Koreans!...
I think illegal Canadians and Koreans are mostly woman. I couldn't imagine a lot of man come to compete for the job market. But Canadian women can just cross the border and earn big money by providing...

Illegal Canadians? Why would a Canadian provider cross a border illegally to provide an illegal service when she can stay home, provide it legally, and in many cases make just as much money? Illegal Canadian men are far more likely imho to come to the States for work as it is a much larger market and more forgiving than Canada, specifically as far as academic credentialling (or the lack thereof) is concerned.

I'll bet you a looney I'm right, but only because it's worth 83 cents or so....

Veni, Vedi, Vici - Gaius Julius Ceasar
Vedi, Vici, Veni - Benchseats Rock

Member #4186

09-30-06, 19:28

Canadian women likely travel south for one of two reasons:

1. Business. to increase their client base (considering that there are a large number of Canadians living in small towns close to the US border, where they might find they've exhausted their business opportunities without expansion) and profit (the US dollar being worth more, but prices being nearly identical)

2. Pleasure. it's warmer in Florida, and providers would be likely to travel at least as often as other Canadian citizens simply because they work their own hours and have cash-based businesses, and because they're young independent females

In addition, I'd like to point out that providering isn't literally legal in Canada. In some jurisdictions, there are more lenient restrictions -- for example, soliciting might be illegal but buying and selling not -- but it's not like a Reno brothel where anything goes as long as you pay tax on it; or a Pat Pong barfine girl where anything goes as long as ... well, as long as you can think it up and humanly do it.

Double Nickle

10-01-06, 18:52

Although Korean Massage Parlors currently dominate the scene in the United States of America there are other distinct asian massage traditions that in their classic forms are very easy to tell apart. But things change through time and demarkation lines often disappear. It used to be we had distinct English, Irish, Italian, German, etc. communities and cultures in New England. Today most of us are generic "white," perhaps with grandparents from 4 different european countries (like myself). We may see a future "McAmp" where the different traditions are blended.

The Chinese massage tradition goes back over 3,700 years! The skilled Qi Gong Tui Na practitioner can manipulate joints and muscles to correct misalignments and to restore the natural flow of bioelectrical energy in the body. It is complementary to Acupuncture which I've been too chicken to try yet. Generally only curtains provide a modicum of privacy. The woman remains clothed in unrevealing street clothes. The man gets naked, but is usually covered or partially covered with a towel. A shower is a rare luxury. The towel will be used to wipe off any dirt or perspiration. The back may be walked on, with a single or double rail above which the practitioner holds onto for balance. Fingertip manipulation of pressure points and long hard stroking of muscles with the palms are major parts of the repertoire. The holistic movement borrows heavily from Chinese tradition. But when the artsy-fartsy new age spa advertises a full body massage they are often lying. The genuine Chinese Qi Gong Tui Na practitioner seems to consider attention to the genitals part of the full body treatment as it should be. Many traditional places will be found in or near the various Chinatowns. You may find bargain prices of only $40 an hour, but tip money is important for the masseuses. Many places they will be happy with a mere $20 tip. Repeat customers are favored and a GFE may even develop.

But it is not 1700 BC anymore. I've seen a black woman working as a masseuse in an otherwise fairly typical Chinese tuina parlor. Chinese women of various ages and attractiveness are the norm but don't be surprised to see other nationalities. Away from Chinatown change seems to accelerate. Some places are starting to offer table showers. On the negative extreme, other places do the "full body massage" through clothing.

Over the millenium China has exported many ideas and inventions; over the "silk road" to Europe; across the Sea of Japan to Japan. In Japan the massage tradition developed into "Shiatsu," a Japanese word referring to the use of fingertip pressure. There is a strong tradition of large, elaborate bathing facilities in Japan, so it is not surprising to find them offering table showers. They might even have invented it. My first table shower was in 1984 at the Cherry Patch Ranch, a legal brothel in Nevada. I think the lady who did the table shower might have been Japanese. It is not far across the Korea Strait separating Japan from Korea. So it is not surprising to find one Japanese massage parlor advertising that English, Japanese, and Korean were spoken. Masseuses were trained in Japan or Korea.

Sandwiched in between Japan and China, Korea does not seem to have developed it's own distinct massage tradition, but to have borrowed from the other two. Most readers will be familiar with the classic Korean Massage Parlor, as exemplified in the 10 KMPs shut down in Waterbury, Connecticut early summer this year. Ring the buzzer. Mamasan lets you in and takes you to a massage room to undress. Provider comes in and collects $60 or so house fee. Table shower, back massage, "turn over." "Anything else?" $40 HJ $60 BJ $100 FS. Hot towel. Leave smiling. Most of the girls are Korean but you will see some others. Massage techniques vary, but are often quite good. Variations from place to place provide a bit of spice.

I can say from experience that all 10 Waterbury KMPs offered FS. But some KMPs only offer HJ. This brings them very close to the Chinese parlors. With no need to disrobe, sell up, or be super careful with hygiene the table shower and sexy scanty outfits become less important. In NYC with Chinese, Korean, and Japanese RNT parlors, in some cases you can't tell if you're at a KMP, CMP, or JMP. You can only be certain you're at some sort of AMP, although most of these will probably be KMPs. If you can distinguish between the Chinese, Korean, and Japanese languages, that is probably the best way to tell. But I'm not sure even that is absolutely certain.

Japanese Massage Parlors here seem to be a vanishing breed. Hopefully they will hang on. And hopefully the strong Korean Massage Parlor and Chinese Massage Parlor presences will continue. Tradition, Service, Value

Benchseats Rock

10-02-06, 21:59

Book Guy,

Why don't you do some actual research on Canadian Law before you look like a moron in an conversation at a dinner party where it may affect your social status?

I'll even give you a chance at redemption. I'll wait a day or two for you to go ahead and post some real information about Canada's laws and attitudes towards prostitution before I post the actual, correct information. Show everyone here that you're not completely talking out of your ass. Or don't. I'm an actual red blooded Canadian. I have a house in Toronto, went to the University of Toronto, and have been thinking of going back for grad school.
Maybe you've been to BC once or twice, maybe you're living in the middle of Saskatchewan - maybe you have friends who told you stories... It doesn't matter. Because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So type the phrase "Canadian Prostitution Court Rulings" into Google, read it and tell us that solicitation is illegal, and so is public communication. Parse the difference between that and the drivel you've posted and redeem yourself. Or admit that you were stoned and had no clue what the fuck you were talking about.
Makes no difference to me...

As for the exchange rate theory, its bullshit plain and simple. People travel because they like to travel. New places, new cultures, museums, (none of which to my knowledge have ever been a draw to the Floridian tourist economy but whatever) No Canadian actually thinks that its a deal when the dollars are within 10 cents of each other, have been for a long time and aren't expected to fluctuate more than 5 cents in either direction. In fact, I'm willing to bet that no one anywhere in the world is going to go through the hassle of crossing a border to make 10 cents on the dollar for a couple of weeks. As for Canadians living in Buffalo... I am sure you were buried by the sheer volume of research it must have taken to come up with that fact.

Pfft!

Benchseats Rock

James D 2004

10-03-06, 00:37

Illegal Canadians? Why would a Canadian provider cross a border illegally to provide an illegal service when she can stay home, provide it legally, and in many cases make just as much money? Illegal Canadian men are far more likely imho to come to the States for work as it is a much larger market and more forgiving than Canada, specifically as far as academic credentialling (or the lack thereof) is concerned.

I'll bet you a looney I'm right, but only because it's worth 83 cents or so....

Veni, Vedi, Vici - Gaius Julius Ceasar
Vedi, Vici, Veni - Benchseats Rock
Fact: there are several Canadian agencies sending Canadian girls to LA and OC regularly. Reason? They love US men and nothing else? If you don't agree and you don't know how to verify this fact, I can help you if you ask.

Common sense: we are talking about illegals here. The type of jobs that illegal men can do are mostly taken up by Mexican's and South Americans. My gardeners are all Mexican but I've yet to see a Canadian gardener.

Benchseats Rock

10-03-06, 05:15

Fact: there are several Canadian agencies sending Canadian girls to LA and OC regularly. Reason? They love US men and nothing else? If you don't agree and you don't know how to verify this fact, I can help you if you ask.

Common sense: we are talking about illegals here. The type of jobs that illegal men can do are mostly taken up by Mexican's and South Americans. My gardeners are all Mexican but I've yet to see a Canadian gardener.

I think we're actually in agreement here. I know of more than one firm that operates agencies in both countries, it would make sense that girls move around from one agency to another under the same corporate umbrella. I can easily see this arrangement working between agencies that aren't part of the same entity, though I cannot see an independant provider being willing to take the same risks without the support of other people's money, and all of the corporate support that an agency provides. In more than a few cases, the independant girls are doing better than the agency girls in Canada: they operate completely within the law and answer to no one. So why travel and assume unnecessary risk from the puritanical US?

All the Canadian gardeners that I know are also Mexicans and South Americans. For the most part though, I don't think it is unfair to say that the illegal immigrant issue is squarely an American one. Canada has a far more structured system of providing for and welcoming new immigrants with open arms and many programs and funding to ensure a decent lifestyle, education, job training and ultimately, this develops good citizenry.

Member #4186

10-18-06, 21:56

Response to Mr. Benchseats-Rock:

Your tone, and general presumption of superiority, and utter failure to contribute to the positive exchange of information, remind me of some of the reasons I left Canada after living there for a significant portion of my adult life. Get over yourself and be polite from now on out. I didn't say anything offensive about Canadians, but you found excuse to find offense.

We're here to share information, not flame. I don't even know which portions of my post you're disagreeing with, you're so full of vehemence. If you read what I wrote, you'll see that in principle I agree with everything you've asserted about legal restrictions, though the specifics might be rearranged mildly. My statement ("In addition, I'd like to point out that providering isn't literally legal in Canada. In some jurisdictions, there are more lenient restrictions ...") fits EXACTLY yours ("read it and tell us that solicitation is illegal, and so is public communication," with your context indicating this is stated ironically). I didn't mention Buffalo (you said "As for Canadians living in Buffalo... I am sure you were buried by the sheer volume of research it must have taken to come up with that fact") and your discussion of the travel for exchange benefits disagrees entirely with my experience.

Quote me, refute me, fine. Don't flame me. Canada's not so great a place that the rules are different for people from there, you have to be polite too. And by the way, I too attended U of T, lived in "a house in Toronto," and attended grad school. You've got no points on me.

Now, from now on out, you should be a good boy. I've already adhered to that requirement. Statements like "moron," "stoned and had no fucking clue what you were talking about," "don't know what the fuck you're talking about," and "bullshit," indicate you're angry, and believe that I need to be cut down a peg because of what you interpret to be not only incorrect statements, but what you see as my arrogance and haughty attitude. But if you read my posts you'll see no arrogance or haughty attitude, and few incorrect statements. If you do find an incorrect statement, feel free to quote it, then state your opposing opinion nicely, and perhaps cite a source that indicates why you disagree with it.

Grow up, child.

Book Guy,

Why don't you do some actual research on Canadian Law before you look like a moron in an conversation at a dinner party where it may affect your social status?

I'll even give you a chance at redemption. I'll wait a day or two for you to go ahead and post some real information about Canada's laws and attitudes towards prostitution before I post the actual, correct information. Show everyone here that you're not completely talking out of your ass. Or don't. I'm an actual red blooded Canadian. I have a house in Toronto, went to the University of Toronto, and have been thinking of going back for grad school.
Maybe you've been to BC once or twice, maybe you're living in the middle of Saskatchewan - maybe you have friends who told you stories... It doesn't matter. Because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So type the phrase "Canadian Prostitution Court Rulings" into Google, read it and tell us that solicitation is illegal, and so is public communication. Parse the difference between that and the drivel you've posted and redeem yourself. Or admit that you were stoned and had no clue what the fuck you were talking about.
Makes no difference to me...

As for the exchange rate theory, its bullshit plain and simple. People travel because they like to travel. New places, new cultures, museums, (none of which to my knowledge have ever been a draw to the Floridian tourist economy but whatever) No Canadian actually thinks that its a deal when the dollars are within 10 cents of each other, have been for a long time and aren't expected to fluctuate more than 5 cents in either direction. In fact, I'm willing to bet that no one anywhere in the world is going to go through the hassle of crossing a border to make 10 cents on the dollar for a couple of weeks. As for Canadians living in Buffalo... I am sure you were buried by the sheer volume of research it must have taken to come up with that fact.

Pfft!

Benchseats Rock

Virile Vito

11-13-06, 00:46

J Schwanger

03-14-08, 07:52

This issue has been covered before in various places here. Most AMPs are manned by Koreans although there are some other countries that have some. Some of us have been involved with these ladies, including managers and owners and we can tell you with no hesitation that at least insofar as the majority of AMPs owned and operated by Koreans there are no forced workers. The workers come and go as they please once they no longer want to work, and others leave because of conflicts with management/owner/other workers. They are there for one reason only - quick, fast, easy money. Most, unfortunately, have habits to feed. I've never met one in my many years with a drug problem but almost all are addicted to nicotine. A great many others are addicted to alcohol, gambling, or both. Some just have expensive tastes and like to buy top shelf merchandise from clothes to accessories to autos. The sad part of this is that most will go back to this quick easy money over and over again to feed their material desires until they are too old to do it anymore. Then, if they have been unsuccessful in finding a man to support them you will see them as managers, kitchen mamas, or custodians in the AMPs.

This is not to say there are no forced workers anywhere. Recently in Florida, a house with workers was busted with hispanic women and one man. The man ran it. The women were pretty much in servitude and it was located in a minority community with a large number of migrant workers. It does happen, and it should not happen.

The AMP business is difficult for newbies to understand because it is so different from the work ethic here but is accepted by the K girls. The house fee goes in almost every instance 100% to the house. The girls work only for tips. They must pay the owner a weekly amount for food. I know of one amp where the girls have to pay $350 per every week for food. Most single persons could survive on that amount for the greater part of the month, let alone a week. If there is a manager/kitchen mama, they girls must also pony up a certain amount every week for that person. It's usually in excess of $100 per girl per week. So the first 4 to 5 customers each week earn nothing for the girls.

This is the way it works and this is the way they all accept it. In the right locations, the girls can still knock down a thousand and more a week.

Most of us would agree that this is a business that is safe, discreet, and as clean as it can be with a few exceptions, and would benefit those working in the business as well as the participants to have some regulation. It would even benefit the state and local governments because they would get their cut too. However, there is an element that thinks that sex anyplace other than in the bedroom or in any other way than missionary, and in a not so frequent time period is the only acceptable way to have sex. Those who believe this are vocal and active so it's doubtful that any regulated AMPS will exist anywhere now or in the future.

An added plus for everyone is that in the places I've been, and there've been many, I've never seen a bad element in the neighborhood, I've never seen a drug problem related to or around the AMPs, and they do not interfere with the surrounding businesses or neighborhoods.

**********