Race N Mongers [Archive]

Speck

06-07-05, 23:13

1.) I never said blacks can't achieve XYZ.

You are an absolute moron if you attribute anything close to the above statement to me. You are a moron because I never said or alluded to anything close to the above.

Instead you have built a "straw man". You do not like what I have said, but you are not able to make a coherent argument against what I said. So instead of arguing against what I say, you construct a bogus argument(the straw man) which you attribute to me and that you can form a coherent argument against.

Joe Monger comes closest to offering a rebuttal of what I say, but unfortunately left out a key component of my argument....one that changes the meaning entirely. I never said that blacks commit the majority of crime, only that they commit a hugely disproportionate number of crimes. That is entirely true.

2.) What did I state that is racist? Please be specific and quote me in context.

3.) My original post was specific to pimps & ho's. The descriptive term "black" to describe the guys robbing the sw was exactly that, nothing more, nothing less. If anyone can logicly prove otherwise, you are welcome to do so.

Joe Monger

06-08-05, 06:27

Joe Monger comes closest to offering a rebuttal of what I say, but unfortunately left out a key component of my argument....one that changes the meaning entirely. I never said that blacks commit the majority of crime, only that they commit a hugely disproportionate number of crimes. That is entirely true.

My point is that while Blacks do commit a very disproportianate number of crimes it's because of a fucked-up economic system that is designed to keep a fucked-up class system in place. Simply put, it's POOR people who commit the majority of violent crime in America. It's poor people who commit the majority of property crime in America. The great thing, the thing that I look forward to, the thing that will eventually make us all truly equal, is that we live in a capitalist society. And in a capitalist society $ rules. Money is green and it does'nt discriminate.

Look at the accumulated data on this subject and you'll see a clear and distinct pattern. Economic plight leads to crime. No matter who you are or where you are. Simple as that. And I reiterate, I DON'T believe that you're (Speck) racist. I know nothing of your upbringing so I have no idea what you were exposed to. I grew up in an area that was very diverse racially, culturally, and economically. I say again that I'd wager you don't have many friends of color. I guarantee that if you open your social circle a bit more your thoughts on these matters will change somewhat.

As this relates to the hobby I get what you're saying. I've been mongering strong since 1992. I've probably fucked well over 100 providers. And the only ones that have ever robbed me or put me in harms way have been BSWs'. I've never seen a white, asian, or latino guy chasing a SW on Sunset either. That's why I rarely, if ever, keep the company of a BSW.

Joe

Luv To Pop

06-08-05, 12:15

Joe Monger

06-08-05, 16:34

I think you would find a closer correlation with criminals coming from single parents rather than economic status. While it may be true that some of you have only been ripped off by black hoes, I have found that by far the coolest SW's I have encountered have been black. White SW's seem to be mostly drugged out white trash with no enthusiasim.

Re-read what you just said. "...single parents rather than economic status"? Single parent households have a lower average income. Therefore they are typically challenged economically. Again, it IS economics that's the root cause of the problem. Check out the link below to see the current data on crime in America. It will open your eyes to what's happening in our country. And STOP trying to make this a black vs. white thing. Predjudice is the child of ignorance.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/arrested/04-table43.html

Joe

Luv To Pop

06-08-05, 17:31

Single parents may tend to be poor, but nevertheless it is a differant variable. Statistically my guess is children of unwed mothers would have a closer correlation with crime than children of two poor parents. Read "Freakonomics", NY Times bestseller. Most violent crimes are not related to financial gain. Your statistics show crimes by race, not by economic status. Whatever, crime is a problem we can't solve so lets just monger safely.

Speck

06-08-05, 21:06

I find it bizarre that the three people who illogically and irrationally levied the race card upon me have nothing further to say...... if even nothing more than to say "oops, I overreacted. You are correct speck in that you said nothing racist at all."

Then again, maybe stark silence speaks volumes.

RickySyxx

06-08-05, 22:06

I for one know that Speck is not racist. Just cause he stated statistic does not mean he is racist. I for one supports Speck right to speak his mind.

Shark in OC

06-09-05, 00:28

Okay, Spek, if you want to encourage me to respond:

As a black man, I tend to overreact, of course, to this type of crap. I am not going to argue statistics, because I, as much as anybody else, feel bad about what is happening in my community. I've read the book the "Bell Curve," and other books that take statistics and use then to support an already racist viewpoint (blacks underachieve, therefore they are dumb as a race, with a few exceptions).

Dude, it's just that you need to treat people like you are actually in the room with them. For example, as much as you are supposedly honest with your wife, you would never tell her she looks fat in a dress. Saying to a black man (and you must know there are a few on this board) that his race is a failure, statistically, is like telling your wife she looks fat in a dress.

In the same manner, why don't you go over to a group of Koreans, and tell them that most of the AMP girls in LA are Korean (and therefore imply that Korean women are generally hoes).

So, your statistics may be correct, I don't know, I don't care because I don't identify with violent criminals, Black, White or Purple. But if it is so important for you to go tell the truth, why don't you go to an NAACP rally, or better, a group of black football players, and tell them your statistics with the same vigor you tell them here?

By the way, is this the forum, literraly, to spew your statitistics on the failure of the black race in America? A forum on sex?

Although you may think you're smart with your internet research, your use of those statistics prove that you are nothing but dumb.

Shark

Tripod

06-09-05, 01:50

Speck,

Please note that in regards to the message that I posted I did not call you a racist. Rather my point was that some of the comments you made could be (and were) construed by some of us as being racist because of the way you chose to make them. Case in point, years ago Ross Perot got in trouble much the same way. He used the term "you people" in one of his speeches and caught hell for it. There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Perot is neither a racist nor a bigot. His mistake was that he was trying to made a valid point but he did a poor job of it. It happens sometimes. All you can do is explain yourself and move on. Those of us who AREN'T laying the race card on you will be willing to move on as well. You can see this by the fact that Shark and I have both moved on to something far more interesting, i.e., mongering.

FYI, I actually agree with you on some of the things that you said. When I was growing up, many of the kids in my neighborhood actually thought it was cool to be stupid and to speak Ebonics (He do and she do, etc.). For the life of me I don't know why they thought this was hip. I caught hell because I refused to speak Ebonics and I brought books home from school and got good grades. This type of warped attitude towards education is rarely seen anywhere else.

Shark in OC

06-09-05, 09:08

Would you support my right to walk up to your wife, or mother, on the streat and speak my mind about how fat she is, in public?

Tripod and I generally agree. We make the same point. You would not go in front of a group of black people, and start spewing off statistics on how half their race are criminals, without so much as acknowledging the 200 years of oppression in America that led up to where the black community is today.

Yes, I am a prime example of somebody that decided not to be a victocrat, as Larry Elder would put it, so I raised myself out of the getto, and become a success in life. But being from there, I understand the cycle of oppression that exists there, that leads to poverty, teanage pregnancy, family breakdown, and crime.

It would be as if your wife had the obesity gene, or was a diabetic, sick, and I just walked up to her, and told her that, statistically, she is overweight, and that she should stop feeding her face and get thin like the rest of us.

I know it's a bad analgy. Your obese wife would not be hurting anybody but herself, and crime hurts others. But my point is, you don't walk up to a group of educated, or at least honest, black men, and start telling them about how they are a part of a race of criminals, statistically. You lump black people into a group of criminals, without explanation, giving no quarter.

In most circles, you would be classified as nothing but a complete jerk or asshole, as you fit the definition of those terms as they are commonly used. jerks and assholes may even be right, and tell the truth 100% of the time. It's just that the have no class, or decorum, and no regard for other.

So in your right to "speak out", as RickySyxx supports, go on. See how far you get in life if you act the same way in your everyday life, and not hide behind an internet handle.

Shark

Chillinin

06-10-05, 02:02

This forum is meant for mongering Speck, and not your ignorant stats or opinions. This is my last post on this topic. We need to be grateful we have a forum to discuss our hobby. I can attest to the fact that this forum has helped in my hobby.

As to your claim I have been silent. I do work and I have a life outside of the forum.

Where do you get your stats on the sex trade? Are you an expert? Where you a ***** in a past life, pimped out by a crack sniffing black pimp? Where do you get your stats. You are so insignificant in the scope of things, you dont know about the underworld of the sex trade. Neither do I.

Before you said all this things recently, I could smell a racist. And you have done nothing but prove me right. Honestly at first I thought I might have over-reacted but you have proven me right.

"The a-holes riding around robbing the girls in Inglewood are all black." Please. You dont care about these girls. The only thing they need to worry about is you. You might not pay them after the deed.

"A hugely disproportionate number of blacks commit crimes." You did not take stats at school did you? You did not take critical thinking did you? Did you attend college or even graduate from Highschool? You dont know now your history? I know a couple of people on this forum have called you intelligent. I differ. Maybe you should open a history book. Start with slavery, go into the Civil War, Jim Crow, the 60's, and 70's. Believe what you want. Believe that your slave holding fore parents were right. Believe that there sins have had no effect on todays generation. Want to know why black people have it bad still? Because of people like you. You would not hire a black person. But you would have sex with a black woman. Sound familiar. I guess your fore parents genes are still in you. You are a coward. I bet you would not have the nerves to tell anyone this face to face.

What happened to you. Did a black man take your job? Did you sister get raped by a black man. What about your mom? Did she ran away with a black man? I feel sorry for you. I am done with you and this subject.

Suck it easy.

PsyberZombie

06-10-05, 06:28

It must be awful to be one of the Black posters here , who are obviously well·read and well·spoken , and find your·self being painted with the brush of statistics that indicate that a very small [ ~ 2 % ] of the population — young black males — commit over two·thirds of all violent crime

But Bill Cosby and even Jesse Jackson have addressed this issue , and they tend to blame the young men and their families , more than 'Society' at large for the problem , or even economics [ if Economics is the cause , why aren't immigrant Hispanics more of a problem , and why is their un·employment rate so low ?? ]

But my fellow [ Black ] mongers suffer more hurt feelings over this when people cross the street when they see them coming the other way ; or point out these stats with the implication that all members of a Race are the same =

They also suffer indignities like being stopped by LE for 'DWB' [ Driving While Black' ] ; and even more importantly [ and this brings us to the relevance of this entire discussion to this web site ] they are discriminated against by SWs and other P4P Pros on a routine basis

I've read many times on other Boards here , Black guys complaining that SWs won't service them ; and I've had more than one SW tell me they *never* go with a Black customer and these proclamatons are usually accompanied by tales of how they were beaten &/or robbed by Black clients [ often more than once ] : this makes their Discrimination as rational as that of a black cab driver who won't pick up a Black fare dressed in 'ghetto' clothes

I feel sorry that you Black guys have to suffer all this , but until the Black Community cleans up its act , that's just the way things are gonna be [ probably , let's face it , for the forseeable future ]

p.s. = for the Record , Yours Truly is Hispanic , although light·skinned ; and I luckily live in a very diverse town [ Providence , Rhode Island ] where there is no real 'majority' or 'minority' , at least in the Mongering / Drug / 'Ghetto' Areas of South Providence = there , we're about 30% white ; 30% Hispanic ; 30% Black ; and 10% Asian... so nobody really sticks out like a sore thumb unless they're driving an expensive vehicle

stickit2daman

06-10-05, 14:31

[Report deleted by Admin]

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was deleted because it contributed nothing of value and in fact constituted a complete waste of bandwidth.

The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange if information between men on the subject of finding women for sex. Let's stick to the subject.

Speck

06-13-05, 00:37

As a black man,

I could not care less what color your skin is.

I tend to overreact, of course, to this type of crap.

What exactly did I post that is as you say "crap"

I am not going to argue statistics

This makes you an idiot. Without statistics, all you have is empirical evidence, which is faulty.

Dude, it's just that you need to treat people like you are actually in the room with them. For example, as much as you are supposedly honest with your wife, you would never tell her she looks fat in a dress. Saying to a black man (and you must know there are a few on this board) that his race is a failure, statistically, is like telling your wife she looks fat in a dress.

I never said this. Why do you keep making up false stuff and attributing it to me?

So, your statistics may be correct, I don't know, I don't care because I don't identify with violent criminals, Black, White or Purple. But if it is so important for you to go tell the truth, why don't you go to an NAACP rally, or better, a group of black football players, and tell them your statistics with the same vigor you tell them here?

By the way, is this the forum, literraly, to spew your statitistics on the failure of the black race in America? A forum on sex?

Shark

Actually, if you would re-read the original posts(I can't fathom how in the world you make $250K or so without having the most basic reading comprehension skills) my reaction was to a poster accusing me of racism for posting the term "black robbers", which is factually true. I also posted a description of the car and license plate they had. Based on the car along with the descriptor "black", I believe that is the best possible description I could provide without posting the pics I took.

Based on the absolutely PC and groundless accusation of racism, I lit into a rant of not only why the description of "black robbers" was accurate, but also as to why the majority of monger related crimes are going to be commited by blacks.

Again, zero facts provided as to why I am racist. There are more made up allegations. Accepting things in life without factual and logical backing is akin to believing in the boogeyman.

Speck

06-13-05, 00:59

Where do you get your stats on the sex trade? Are you an expert? Where you a ***** in a past life, pimped out by a crack sniffing black pimp? Where do you get your stats. You are so insignificant in the scope of things, you dont know about the underworld of the sex trade. Neither do I.

I spoke to a very small population...street walkers in Los Angeles. My statements on that are sound. Multiple posts by experienced mongers on this site confirm that most pimps in Los Angeles are black. There are also a few Latino gang members that function as pimps.

Note that I am not speaking to escorts. If I were, I would note that there are a ton of white pimps, particularly the Russians.

Before you said all this things recently, I could smell a racist.

Do you believe in the boogeyman as well? Do you always form opinions with few facts? Are you in fact an idiot, incapable of logical conclusions base on factual foundations?

"The a-holes riding around robbing the girls in Inglewood are all black." Please. You dont care about these girls. The only thing they need to worry about is you. You might not pay them after the deed.

Actually I do care about them quite a bit. I hate to see bad stuff happen to the girls. I don't like to see physical harm or harm to property happen to any human being. When it happens right in front of me, its all the worse.

Unfortunately, there is very little I can do. I learned very quickly that it is not possible to be Captain Save A Ho. Even in the few situations when I started dating sw on a non pay for play basis(a couple times several years ago when PCH in LB used to be great), the girls would inevitably disappoint.

Anyway, point is I do not like to see them hurt, and someone taking money from them is the same as money being taken from me.

"A hugely disproportionate number of blacks commit crimes."

Factually true. Joe Monger posted the actual stats.

Even Shark agreed with this statement.

You are an idiot if you deny factual truth

You did not take stats at school did you? You did not take critical thinking did you? Did you attend college or even graduate from Highschool?

Based on your illogical denial of facts, I would argue that the above statements actually apply to you.

Believe that your slave holding fore parents were right.

LOL, my forebearers were starving to death and being killed for their Christian beliefs while your forebearers were slaves.

S-h-i-t, my grandparents on both sides of the family spent a good deal of time starving to a medically unhealthful point as children.

Believe that there sins have had no effect on todays generation. Want to know why black people have it bad still? Because of people like you. You would not hire a black person.

Again that boogeyman thing. Why do you make up stuff? Isn't there enough interesting that actually exists?

But you would have sex with a black woman. Sound familiar. I guess your fore parents genes are still in you. You are a coward. I bet you would not have the nerves to tell anyone this face to face. What happened to you. Did a black man take your job? Did you sister get raped by a black man. What about your mom? Did she ran away with a black man? I feel sorry for you. I am done with you and this subject.

Getting dropped on your head as a young child must hurt an awful lot.

Tripod

06-13-05, 02:16

A few weeks back on "60 Minutes" Andy Rooney was talking about the same topic we are discussing (minus mongering). What he said was as follows: When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability." Speck: I would venture to say that you have Andy Rooney on your side in regards to your arguments. The Law of Probability IS statistics (remember Statistics class and the example of flipping the coin to see how many times it came up heads or tails?).

PsyberZombie

06-13-05, 06:34

stickit2daman wrote =

" I thought Speck was black? With a name like Speck. "

SPECK takes his Handle from an in·famous Mass Murderer = Richard Speck , who killed eight student nurses in Chicago one July night back in 1966

Now , he may deny this when called on it , and point to some other as the source of his Handle . But why would you pick the name of one of the most notorious mass murderers in American History as your own Handle , even if there was some other source for it ??

Would YOU pick , say , MANSON for a Handle ; then claim you just meant some·thing entirely different and innocent by it ??

p.s. For the Original Speck's story , go to =

http://crimemagazine.com/03/richardspeck,0820.htm

Webcams

06-13-05, 08:03

SPECK takes his Handle from an in·famous Mass Murderer = Richard Speck , who killed eight student nurses in Chicago one July night back in 1966

I thought He wore glasses; that's why he chose Speck, go figure.

Luv To Pop

06-13-05, 10:15

Joe Monger

06-13-05, 13:00

I thought He wore glasses; that's why he chose Speck, go figure.

Agreed.

Now everyone should go back and read Specks' posts. ALL the way back. He's not racist nor did he name himself after a mass-murderer. He's misguided, very much like many of the other posters on this thread it seems. This is why it's hard to ever have an intelligent discussion regarding race. People start making hyperbolic statements and the whole discussion turns into a shouting match. I'm glad Webcams started a whole new thread so we did'nt litter up the general board with this bullshit. BTW, racial discrimination can work both ways. I grew up around a lot of Black people and they can be just as fucked up, and talk just as much shit, as White people. I have a nice little scar on my right cheek that proves it.

When I was 16 I briefly dated the daughter of one of my teachers. The family was Black. Up until then I was a friend of their family, welcomed into their home, welcomed into their lives. When I began dating Keisha that all changed. It changed at school as well. I had Black friends, people I thought were friends, threaten to kick my ass. Black females, both in school and out in public, would openly and aggresively threaten, harrass, and taunt Keisha and I. Keisha and I were KIDS who had good parents that taught us not to be judgemental, not to hate. How quickly everything can change. After only three months of dating, a few of Keishas' BIG cousins came looking for me. One of them was wearing a ring which left the little scar that now resides on my right cheek.

Hate and discrimination are wrong. No matter who you are. No matter where you are. Period. When I look in the mirror I see a small dimpled scar on my right cheek, but I still like what I see. I like WHO I see. When YOU GUYS look in the mirror, I wonder...DO YOU LIKE who you see?

Joe

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment."

"I am not a racist. I am against every form of racism and segregation, every form of discrimination. I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color."

Malcolm X

stickit2daman

06-14-05, 13:30

Pitching a Tent

06-14-05, 16:29

Psyberzombies post entitled "Impact vs Intent" clearly made the most sense of all, yet no one has commented on it. Economics has little to do with it. Either someone is a law-abiding citizen or one is not. By saying being poor equates with being a criminal is insulting the millions of law-abiding people who live in poverty. Its very interesting to me that every minority group in this country: Hispanics, Asians, Middle Eastern, etc., all come to this country not speaking the language and being quite poor, but within a few short years become quite prosperous, well employed, excellent students, and enjoying all the American way of life has to offer.

I think the black community should look to Cosby and Jackson as role models. Its time to stop blaming and start doing what all the other minorities do: work hard, study hard, save money, invest, have a strong family unit, and obey the law. It is a sad fact that in the city I live in as well, about 90% of the BSW's I pick up will not date a black man. PS was right about that as well. And about the black cabbies being reluctant to pick up young blacks.

I would hate to be a hard-working, respectable, educated black man as I'm sure most of you are on this board. And I would be pissed as hell to hear my brothers blame it on economics or the fact that textbooks are not written in Ebonics or something. I'd tell him to follow the Mexican guy around for a couple of days: the one with the mower and the weedwacker in the back of his beat up pickup supporting his family of six and not breaking the law.

Joe Monger

06-15-05, 03:46

By saying being poor equates with being a criminal is insulting the millions of law-abiding people who live in poverty.

So that's why all those third-world countries like Rawanda and Columbia are so "peaceful", right? You have completely missed the point. Do you know what the crime rates are like in most third-world countries? What the standard of living is like? For example, why are U.S. crime rates lower in areas where there are a higher percentage of people who possess college degrees? Why do you think that is? What do you think that's about? You need to STOP spending your $ on hoes and go buy a book or three. And when you're done reading them you should save some more $ and travel to Somalia, Ethiopia, and Columbia. You can rejoice with the rest of the "poor people"...when you're not ducking from flying bullets or tying to evade kidnappers.

Here is a helpful link so you can plan your traveling adventure;
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

I sincerely hope you, and everyone else who has been lurking/posting on this thread checks out the above link. Cross reference some of the data. OPEN YOUR EYES.

Economics is the PRIMARY issue. Look at the link that was previously posted and check the statistics for yourself. This is not an opinion, IT IS FACT. You can stare at the FBI crime statistics all day long, and there is one constant, ONE COMMON DENOMENATOR. Violent crime rates are DRAMATICALY higher in areas where higher numbers of the population live below the poverty line. That's why "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" FOR EVERYONE is so important. When prople of any color, race, or sex are oppressed they will fight back! It's simple and undeniable. Look around you. When times were good in the 80s' and 90s' violent crime in LA was down. Once the dot-com bubble burst and the economy down-trended violent crime went back up. A good economy=jobs, higher wages, better education, a higher overall quality of life. That naturally leads to lower crime rates.

AGAIN, THIS IS FACT. NOT MY FUCKING OPINION. CHECK OUT THE LINK TO THE FBI CRIME STATISTICS FOR YOURSELF!

Predjudice is the child of ignorance. And ignorance, as this thread proves, is clearly not the province or property of any particular race.

Joe

Vinifera

06-15-05, 04:23

When times were good in the 80s' and 90s' violent crime in LA was down. Once the dot-com bubble burst and the economy down-trended violent crime went back up. A good economy=jobs, higher wages, better education, a higher overall quality of life. That naturally leads to lower crime rates.There is another very credible theory as to why crime trended down in the 90's.

It was proposed by Steven D. Levitt in 2004 and also found in his book Freakonomics - Chapter 4. An online version of the book can be found until the end of June at

http://www.netlibrary.com/eBookOfTheMonth/129219.aspx

He credits the legalization of abortions for the decline.

A piece of the evidence he cites is that in the states that had legal abortion prior to Roe vs Wade, crime also trended down earlier.

He also has a website at http://www.freakonomics.com/

The guy has some very intriguing ideas besides the abortion theory.

The book is very readable. I recommend it highly. AND it's a free read.

Tripod

06-15-05, 11:49

What city is 70% black?Actually, Detroit is close to 80% black. The city of Inglewood is 47% black and 46% Hispanic. Washington, D.C., which once had the title of Murder Capital of the US, is over 60% black.

Also, another thing we have not touched on is white collar crime vs. blue collar crime. White males in the US are responsible for the majority of white collar crimes in the US and yet they do not get the bad PR that black males get in regards to blue collar crimes. This goes to show that crime, as it appears in the US toay, is actually a sociological and economic issue with a media spin to it.

Luv To Pop

06-15-05, 12:32

So that's why all those third-world countries like Rawanda and Columbia are so "peaceful", right? You have completely missed the point. Do you know what the crime rates are like in most third-world countries? What the standard of living is like? For example, why are U.S. crime rates lower in areas where there are a higher percentage of people who possess college degrees? Why do you think that is? What do you think that's about? You need to STOP spending your $ on hoes and go buy a book or three. And when you're done reading them you should save some more $ and travel to Somalia, Ethiopia, and Columbia. You can rejoice with the rest of the "poor people"...when you're not ducking from flying bullets or tying to evade kidnappers.

Here is a helpful link so you can plan your traveling adventure;
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

I sincerely hope you, and everyone else who has been lurking/posting on this thread checks out the above link. Cross reference some of the data. Open your eyes.

Economics is the primary issue. Look at the link that was previously posted and check the statistics for yourself. This is not an opinion, it is fact. You can stare at the FBI crime statistics all day long, and there is one constant, One common denominator. Violent crime rates are dramitically higher in areas where higher numbers of the population live below the poverty line. That's why "equal opportunity" for everyone is so important. When prople of any color, race, or sex are oppressed they will fight back! It's simple and undeniable. Look around you. When times were good in the 80s' and 90s' violent crime in LA was down. Once the dot-com bubble burst and the economy down-trended violent crime went back up. A good economy=jobs, higher wages, better education, a higher overall quality of life. That naturally leads to lower crime rates.

Predjudice is the child of ignorance. And ignorance, as this thread proves, is clearly not the province or property of any particular race.

JoeThe link you refrenced makes no correlation between poverty and crime. India has less crime than US, and is an extremely poor country while the US is one of the most affluent. The stock market has tended to rise after an old NFL team wins the Super Bowl, but do you really think their is a correlation? I believe crime is more closely related to children who come from single parent families.

http://www.divorcereform.org/crime.html

A discussion can be had without rude personal attacks against people who disagree with you.

Joe Monger

06-15-05, 13:18

There is another very credible theory as to why crime trended down in the 90's.

It was proposed by Steven D. Levitt in 2004 and also found in his book Freakonomics - Chapter 4. An online version of the book can be found until the end of June at

http://www.netlibrary.com/eBookOfTheMonth/129219.aspx

He credits the legalization of abortions for the decline.

A piece of the evidence he cites is that in the states that had legal abortion prior to Roe vs Wade, crime also trended down earlier.

He also has a website at http://www.freakonomics.com/

The guy has some very intriguing ideas besides the abortion theory.

The book is very readable. I recommend it highly. AND it's a free read.

Looks interesting. I'll check it out.

Joe

Pitching a Tent

06-15-05, 13:22

Joe,

Cool your jets Dude. Obviously your right if you're talking about Ethiopia, Somalia, or Colombia. There is no economic opportunity and often regardless of how hard you work you just won't succeed. I agree thats a major reason for the high crime in places like that. And I agree that its a major reason for high crime in the U.S. because some people think it makes more sense to sell drugs for example than it does to push a lawn mower. I still think its a lame excuse to start breaking laws.

Instead of using blacks as an example as that obviously fries your shorts, lets use a white kid from a poor home as an example. He gets a job a McDonalds that he finds embarrassing, underpaid, lousy, and a complete waste of his precious time. He goes through the motions, does mediocre work, and is soon out of a job and committing petty crimes. I see this all the time even in my own family. Now the Arab immigrant takes the same shitty job but is thinking, if I play my cards right and work super hard I can manage this McDonalds in a few years, maybe even buy a franchise. A year later you drive by and he's the one wearing the tie, getting medical benefits, and making decent money as an assistant manager. Its all in how you look at things.

I think Cosby's advice would apply to all Americans of all races. This is a country of opportunity (sorry, if you see no difference between us and Somalia). Work hard, study hard, stay off drugs, save your money, etc., and you will succeed. BTW, you don't see many unemployed people in this country from the places you mentioned. Immigrants are the hardest working people I know. Within a few years many have surpassed many of their American counterparts of all races in areas of work and academic achievement. How sad if would be for them and all of us, is if when they got here they said: boy, no economic opportunity for me, I can't speak the language, and I'm having to work three minimum wage jobs to survive. I think I'll buy a gun and rob a bank instead.

Pat

Wastrel

06-15-05, 14:44

Again, this is fact. not my fucking opinion.
No sir, it is your opinion and interpretation based upon your belief system, or your "fucking opinion" if you prefer. Correlation is not causation. The rooster is not necessarily the cause of dawn. One could just as easily choose to conclude that criminal activity causes poverty, either for the individual criminal or the community, and in fact there is much academic evidence suggesting that. One could also find other factors, such as family structure and culture which could give rise to both poverty and crime. In point of fact we now have a lot of experience with hundreds of career criminals becoming wealthy through jackpot legal judgments, and they continue committing more crimes at even faster rates. In fact the "poverty" line in the U.S. is equivalent to the lifestyle of very well off professional people in most countries of the world, and current consumption of todays "poor" excedes that of prior generations of Doctors and Lawyers and other upper income earners, and today's "poor" would be even more wealthy if their non-cash sources such as housing subsidies, food vouchers, energy assistance payments, etc. were counted as income, which they are not. Regardless of that, the fact that violent people don't achieve much academically and financially is hardly surprising or "proof" that they must be violent becuase life is so unfair. Criminals don’t often get college degrees or move in with those who do, therefore the college credentials must have prevented crime? How about a more likely alternate explanation: they didn’t go to school becuase they are criminals, and people who did go to school don’t wish to live with criminals.

I am not sure why you imagine it is relevant to the point you are trying to "prove," but neither you nor anybody else has the slightest idea what "crime rates" are in third world countries, becuase they do not have reliable measures of such things, and define them differently in ways that make such cross-cultural assertions meaningless. The third world country I have spent time living in (Philippines) is quite poor and noticeably safer from the standpoint of many kinds of street crime, and this is true of many poor nations with different cultural traditions. "FBI statistics" you vaguely refer to (it is called the FBI Uniform Crime Report) have never claimed to be a valid measure of the number of crimes committed in one location compared to another, and are not designed to be used for that purpose. They measure police reports, the volume of which is largely determined by the number of police officers employed to write reports, and not by the number of actual crimes. The FBI will tell you this themselves, and they do so in the notes to their annual statistical report.

The fact that some others do not share your political ideology does not make them "ignorant." It simply means they have a different point of view, and if you are able to lower your voice a bit you may be able to learn from them, and they from you.

It seems to me this discussion has conflated race, income or poverty, and social class as if they were all the same thing. They are not, they are separate and distinct things. I sure hope this is not shocking news to anyone, but I think it needs to be said: most African-Americans are NOT poor, most poor Americans are not black, the overwhelming majority of American blacks are middle income and above and have been for a long time, many sub-sets of black Americans (such as black immigrants) have higher average incomes than whites, most individual people in most neighborhoods designated as low income are not poor, and most poor people in the U.S. are that way for only a small portion of their lives.

In my frequent trips to La-la land I choose to spend most of my time in south-central, and my personal pet peeve is the presumption that everything south of the 10 should be regarded as impoverished and criminal. Even some political hustlers within the community play into that nonsense so they can pimp it for their own purposes. This pisses me off, as there are a great many stable prosperous communities within historically black areas such as Compton and and Inglewood with successful accomplished people owning valuable homes of which they have every reason to feel proud. On the other hand, even though I was born there, I can’t really say I like what y’all have been doing with the place while I’ve been away, and I often think the ideology of victimhood has been a destructive force in some of the communities of my old home, becuase it teaches individual helplessness and ridicules legitimate achievement for the benefit of a few low-rent gatekeepers of group entitlements. What most people in south central actually have to worry about being “oppressed” by is the few scumbag violent thugs running loose in their midst and trying to poison their kids.

It should be possible to have a useful discussion of matters of this sort, but I fear that in practice it is not.

Shark in OC

06-16-05, 11:54

Spek,

I will stick to the point, even though this debate has turned into a discusson on 3rd World country poverty.

Again, I don't agree or dissagree with your alleged statistics. Between work, kids, and mongering, I don't have time to deal with such BS. Who cares the color of pimps, or criminals. In fact, I would bet that if the cops really cracked down in K-town, the statistics would change, as there are a lot of underground pimps there, running operations for Inglewood and SM message joints, and places like Parkasian.

Okay, I do see alot of my black brotheren getting arrested, shot, shaken down, etc., on the news, and I don't think it is all because the cops hate blacks. A lot of them must be committing crimes. As I said, as a professional black man, it saddens me.

However, that being said, even if every (Internet) statistic you cite were absolutely true, you are so knowledgeable, I would like to arrange for you to go and speak in front of an NAACP conference, or I can get a few of my larger African American friends and family in a group, and we can see how they would react to your statements.

It is interesting that you hide behind an internet handle on a sex site to spew your statistics. Don't you think it is out of context? If this were a conference regarding race and crime in society, then I would not be so hot on this issue. It is as if you have been doing research on this, and just waiting for any opportunity to spew your statitistics, even if it is on a sex site.

It is so out of context, that one monger even created this thread for you so he did not have to hear it in the mist of talking about hot women.

So, if you think your statements are not racist, let me know how you want to proceed in making those speaking arangements. The context would be even more appropriate than this forum.

Again, it is not what you are saying, but the way and context in which you are saying it. If you were to take a bullhorn, and spew your rantings on the street, your focus on this subject could only be viewed as racist. While you are at it, you can talk about Native Americans, Jewish people, Hispanics, and their sterotypes.

By the way, I was listening to the news this morning about the MS13 gang, and all the revenge killings they are perpetrating. This is the gang that is transporting drugs across the Mexican boarder, and they are notorious for killing cops, innocents, including women and children of suspected informants. Since they are so notrious, and a disproportionate number of the gangs transporting drugs across the Mexican boarder are, surprisingly, Mexican, are we to conclude that Mexicans are genetically disposed to transport drugs in brutal gangs?

We can also talk about the Italian Mofia, and the disproportion of white collar criminals, who are, suprisingly, white.

Again, the context, and way, you make your statements, with such anger, vigor, and enthusiasm, and your joy and enthusiasm in which you defend yourself in making these statements, shows what kind of person you are. You are a jerk at best, not caring if you hurt others feelings with the manner in which you say things, and most likely a racist, who just waits for every opportunity to speak badly about a minority group.

-Shark-

Pitching a Tent

06-16-05, 14:40

Excellent discussion all with the exception of a few. Usually when some simple-minded folks get themselves all worked up, they feel the need to yell by typing in all CAPS, using swear and cuss words because they have a limited vocabulary, and response by criticising and putting down other opinions instead of clearly stating their own. Thats not having a discussion, thats just plain rude and ill-mannered. Then, not having any solid facts they start to compare the U.S. to civil war torn countries like Somalia and Rwanda of all places to explain our violence. In college logic they call that a "faulty analogy". Those who want to condone "bad behavior" always will. I bet if he tried really hard he could put up a list of twenty extremely poor countries that have a fairly low crime rate. But of course, that wouldn't fit in his tightly held belief system that a hard-working minority American just can't get ahead without resorting to violence.

PAT

Wastrel

06-17-05, 16:16

I didn't catch the start of this conversation before it came to this thread (and I'm not sure I want to) but IF it is true that pimping and rip-offs appear to be identified with only one ethnic group in LA then I believe that is probably a function of local demographics and geography. There is no shortage of both highly visible pimping and rip-offs by other races in other places that I see. You can find plenty of white pimps right now in Las Vegas, I can stand on the bridge at Flamingo and LV Blvd and point to at least a half dozen of them an hour, and you will have no trouble at all finding opportunities to get ripped off by a blue eyed blonde Britney Spears look-alike on The Strip, if you really want that.

Just a wild guess, but perhaps it is not particularly comfortable for a white pimp to try to set up shop on the street in some areas, any more than it would be for a black man to try to move in on the business in an arena controlled by ethnic Russian or Cuban or Chinese or Italian guys, and I am very well acquainted with places where that is the way it is. Someone who tries that in the wrong place in the wrong way without paying off the right people could be invited to win a free ride in a Lincoln Town Car...in the trunk.

Shark in OC

06-18-05, 16:32

That was my point about K-town. While this tool, Spek, refers to most of the pimps in Inglewood being black (duuuuuuu!), if you go the Korea town, guess what, most of the pimps are, surprisingly Korean.

This Spek should get a clue someday.

Shark

PsyberZombie

06-19-05, 09:51

.... of P4P gals who want nothing to do with Black guys

Here's one recent one =

http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=365909

Relevant Quote =

" She proved to be quite talkative, direct, opinionated (Cops, Blacks didn't fare well) "

WHY do you think this is so , Joe ??

Let me enlighten you = it's not because Black guys' money ain't Green . It's because of Repeated Bad Experiences with members of this group that turns the gals off to them

How and Why a sub·set of one Racial Group became so criminal and violent that people rationally dis·criminate against the entire Group is open to debate

But the IMPACT on you decent guys is un·deniable ; and —— as I wrote here earlier —— Sad , but probably the way things are gonna be for the forseeable future

Shark in OC

06-19-05, 13:39

PsyberZombie,

The sub set is Black dude from Inglewood, which is know gang territory. If there girls where walking the streets of Ledera Hights, (a relatively decent Black area) problably they would not have as much trouble with black mongers. Obviously this will not happen because the cops would crack down on street walkers there almost as fast as if they were walking Beverly HIlls.

Unfortunately for the girls, the only area that the cops will alow SW action to occur in mass, is in the Black Getto (Yes there are some girls walking Harbor Blvd in OC, but that is not the best or areas either).

The girls must realize that the White dudes who come to the area are not part of the local gang population.

BTW, the continuing rash of robberies of AMPs are being committed by Hispanic men, especially the SM AMPs. So I guess us Black people have missed that niche. I need to get my AK-47, which as many of you white people must know is standard issue to black males, and start competing in this crime market, since everybody in this thread agrees that we have the lock on violence against prostitutes.

Another statistic that I can cite is that most serial killers are White males. I guess White people are more pre-disposed to be serial killers than Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians, if we use the same logic being perpetrated in this thread.

And using the same logic, since inner city gettos are populated largely by black people, and there is more crime in the inner city due to the oppressive nature of the getto (which you all dismiss as a possible reason why a larger percentage of us Black people may commit crimes), I guess we should also assume that since a larger pecentage of AMP girls are Korean and Hispanic, those women are genetically pre-displosed to be AMP hoes. It certainly could not be because a large proportion of those populations are illegal immigrants who have little or no (English) education, and sometimes AMP prostitution set up by some of the vary same Korean pimps who sponsor their entry into the US give them the only alternative for surviving here.

Shark

PsyberZombie

06-20-05, 06:49

I think it's safe to say that we all here condemn the blatant discrimination that Black guys get in life in general , and from Hookers in particular

Take this guy Cye11 , who posts on the Manhattan Board . He writes =

" So after reading about the infamous farrah on the board I finally get the info on her and give her a shout. so we start talking and the convo is great and we are setting up a time to get up when I make the mistake of telling her that i am african american. the whole tone of the convo changes and she tells me that she has a rule not to service black men.....aint that some shit??????? so now I read all this crap about her and I can't even give my own critique because she is a closed minded hoe.......cmon now isn't money green no matter what color the person who posesses it is. what a joke!!!!! "

[ http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?t=2251&page=12&pp=15 ; the Manhattan version of this thread continues from that post ]

But what I want to know is = WHY do some of you guys here insist on serving up such Red Herrings as The Cause of this Problem [ Economics ?? ; dys·functional families ?? ; who Cares !! ]

... or other racial stereo·types , like "we should also assume that since a larger pecentage of AMP girls are Korean and Hispanic, those women are genetically pre-displosed to be AMP hoes" , or "most serial killers are White males. I guess White people are more pre-disposed to be serial killers than Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians"

So What ?? Hookers aren't refusing to serve me because I'm fairly light·skinned and most serial killers are , too

The Bottom Line is = as long as black guys commit the majority of crime and violence against Hookers , a lot of these gals are going to reject their business

Here's another Quote from the Manhattan Version of this thread =

" My own ATF P4P Pro adamantly refuses to have any·thing to do with black men =

Twice in her Career she's been robbed , both times by black men , and need·less to say , she isn't gonna let it happen again

And if that wasn't bad enough , last December she was Beaten AND Robbed by two guys of a few hundred dollars worth of Christmas presents she was carrying as well as her purse that held every dime she owned in the world

Care to guess what race those two men were ?? "