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GettingTang
12-22-03, 09:07
No offense to anyone on this forum, but don't you all think you're being just a slight bit paranoid here?

Speaking in general terms about P4P or whatever term you call it, is in no way incriminating yourself. Country John, you used to be LE, you should know this best of all. I would seriously venture to guess about 1/3 of the total post on the WSG guide forum are fake! LE still has to catch you in the act of propositioning. Simply writing about it in a forum is not incriminating. They could possibly use it against you in a case, but it would have to originate from something outside the realms of this forum.

And further more, technically, prostitution might be illegal, but trust me, it's not the worst crime to commit. Cops are much busier chasing gangsters and drug dealers toting guns, then to worry about some guy going through a middle age crisis and posting egotistically about paying for pussy on a message board!

So people, keep the info coming, keep it real. Nobody is going to kick in you door for posting here. Sure I'm sure they read it and if there are numerous reports in a specific area, they might send someone to check it out, but trust me the swat team is not going to surround your home at 3AM.

GETTINGTANG~!

PS And further more, as i have said time and time again. My posts are always fictional. Nothing I post is in any context with any sort of time frame, or has any ring of truth to it!

aht169
12-22-03, 10:16
With all due respects go GettingTang, I have to strongly disagree with your comments regarding SD's "finest". There are no bigger chickens than the SD PD. This bunch of scum would be rather harassing a SWs and johns rather than dealing with drug dealers, pimps and serious crime. I have seen it with my own eyes.

A few months ago I was back in SD cruising ECB and watched as a squad car stopped a SW and talked to her and arrested her. Less than a block away, 2 black dudes where dealing drugs right on ECB!! I couldn't believe it. I almost (I repeat almost) went up to the cops and asked them what they were going to do about the drug deals, but with my luck they would have arrested me for loitering!

Let's face it, the cops would much rather deal with individuals they know won't take a shot at them or make them work to hard. Mongers and SW are not usually a violent bunch and due to the stigma, are willing to do whatever is necessary to make things "cool". Cop's get higher arrest numbers, meet quota, DA's get more convictions and they get more rhetoric for their election campaigns. "everyone" is then happy. Except for the people who live in the area and ahve to put up with the real dangerous types, including pimps, dealers, thieves, etc...

But hey, they can then say they have cleaned up the streets. Let's face it, cops are just out to save their own skin and stick it to the city on an injury/disability as soon as they can. The best thing that could happen to the SD PD is a major budget cut since the city will be out of money! They deseve to be walking the unemployment lines!

I'll get off my soapbox now!
Be safe out there!
AHT169

Country John
12-22-03, 20:36
With all due respect to all who are in fact due respect (and you know who you are), it may be impossible for you to comprehend this but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to LE. You have no reality on what it's like, on the danger or anything else. The best you can do is sit on your ass and criticize.

You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile.

You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow.

The LE who read these posts know exactly how to treat you when they CATCH you man. After reading the shit you post, if I were you I would not wonder anymore about why LE carries on the way they do when they catch you. You deserve EVERY bit and maybe more. Their view of mongerers is influenced, among other things by what you write here and if you don't give a shit about it then why the hell are you posting it?

Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it.

Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongerers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message.

See you on TV.

Country John

Tired_Driver
12-22-03, 23:10
I have to side with Country John on this one. We are in America and one reason why it is so damn cool here is because the cops keep people from running it into a shithole. Also, being the democracy it is the majority has decided, no matter how much we may disagree, that mongering and girls trading the use of their bodies for money (prostitution) is against the law. The cops do not make the laws, they enforce them.

We choose to disobey those laws and lurk about looking for some cutie that will trade a few bucks for riding the baloney pony. It is at this point that we become adversaries of the law and society. From here you can decide to be a respectful adversary or one who is a disrespectful ass on top of breaking the law. Frankly I think the smart move is to remain respectful. Respecting ones adversary is the wisest move you can make, at a minimum it will keep you on your toes and keep you from getting sloppy, careless and caught by your adversary.

Cops have a crap job. They are the same as garbage collectors except they get to deal with the two legged, trash talking, disrespectful garbage. A thankless job to say the least.

Now do I wish the cops would devote more time and budget money to things like car theft rings, gangs, drug dealers, etc and in the process leave the nearly victimless crime of prostitution alone? Absolutely! Will I complain or grumble about it when the pickings are slim on ECB? Sure will. Is it necessary to be disrespectful to the street cops actually doing their jobs? Not at all.

The cops aren't deciding to oppress you, to single you out and harass you specifically. You are breaking the law, intentionally by choice and that puts you in their cross hairs.

I hope for your and all of our sakes that we are able to monger without finding ourselves in those crosshairs. If you do end up there just remember, it is you who put yourself there in that situation, not them.

TD

GettingTang
12-22-03, 23:27
Country John, if I may address your last post:

Tang: First of all, I do have the most respect for LE, as I have said numerous times. With all aspects of their jobs, except for one. This has to do with the act of prostitution. I do not believe it should be fully illegal. Perhaps regulated and controlled, but not a blanket crime. By the way, many politicians feel the same way. In fact 60% of Americans when polled, do not feel paying for sex should be a crime!

Quote CJ: "You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile. end Quote"


Tang: We know the act of mongering is illegal. This is where the problem stems from. We do not feel it should be illegal in the first place. Jay walking is illegal too.

QUOTE CJ: "You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit."

Tang: This again is not fully true. Some of us are in fact shit. I happen to be 6'2" 245 pounds, have a brown belt, and boxed for 6 years in the core. I'm a vet who fought for my country and continues to support the war on terror! I stand the liberty for all Americans! Again, I simply disagree, the paying for sex, is a crime. It hurts no one!

QUOTE CJ: " You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow."

Tang: So essentially what you're saying is you agree with LE stance on aggressively pursuing those who pay for sex? Read between the lines and you are. So I would pose the question then, what are you truly doing in this forum??

QUOTE CJ: "Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it."

TANG: Well finally something I can sort of agree with. I don't think painting a broad brush of LE is proper. They do have their place and do deserve respect. There are lots of LE officers who are very good and understanding people. Who do care about their communities and do try and do things right!

QUOTE CJ: "Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message. "

TANG: Again, in my opinion it has now become all to clear why you are here, it's not to monger and share with the rest of us. You agree fully with the fact that paying for sex should be illegal. Sometimes the truth comes out when someone is heated. You being ex LE, should know this best. Whatever work you had here, for whatever reason is now done. You have been exposed and by your own doing!

GETTINGTANG~!

Civ2000
12-23-03, 03:10
Country John, So much for your promise to move your discussions of LE to the opinions and editorials board. It was nice while it lasted.

No one is denying that cops have a tough job. And most of us know that the individual cops enforcing prostitution and other bogus laws are simply following directions of their superiors: in most cities the Chief of Police and the Mayor. Like most of us, they want to keep their jobs and try to follow directions.

The problem lies in the way they seem to relish destroying some poor guys life who's done nothing more than pick up a prostitute. You see them laugh and high-five each other when they get to impound a vehicle and joke about what the "perverts" wife is going to say when she finds out. I think most mongers do treat the police with respect. I know I am always respectful and try to treat them with courtesy and dignity. But I've never seen it returned. I've said hello to officers before with no acknowlegement from them whatever. I am not a cop, therefore I am not a human being. They even have an acronym for junkies, homeless people, mongers, etc which is NHI. It stands for No Human Involved. For the police to get respect they also have to give it.

I too am suspicious of Country Johns reports. For someone who is ex-LE he sure dishes out a lot of disinformation. On the Anaheim board he said in one post that if you ask a cop if he/she is LE they have to tell the truth. If they don't then it's clear sailing provided you make an illegal recording of their denial. He said just to ask the policewoman to show her breasts. Someone who is even a little familiar with LE and mongering is aware of the intent to solicit laws. Then a day later he admitted that LE can lie and often does. Which is it? Following CJ's advise will get your car impounded and get you arrested.

But I doubt if CJ is really a threat. I don't believe he is working in conjunction with any agency. I think he must be extremely bored, with a hell of a lot of time on his hands to post 157 reports in just over six weeks. He's practically written Gone with the Wind on the Morality of Prostitution thread. I have faith that our tax dollars are not going to pay this windbag to write sometimes fourteen posts a day in his extremely difficult to read and verbose style.

I'm sure this post will result in his writing an additional twenty pages of rebuttal and vaguely worded threats about how LE is going to humiliate me if I ever get arrested for mongering because I don't support arrogant police rookies roughing up prostitutes and mongers. Or maybe he will keep his promise and move his obvious infatuation with LE somewhere else.

Pokey
12-23-03, 04:05
Civ 2000,

Yes, that quote about police women working vice having to tell the truth, if asked about being a cop, had me wondering too.

I don't think he is L.E. at all, but rather a retired security guard, when not writing on this forum is watching 'COPS".

No legitimate police agency would have anything to do with a depraved individual like this. He could never get past the background checks.

If he was a real cop all police would be ashamed of him.

Sorry, this is off the topic of looking and finding pussy. But his writing and love of L.E. makes me crazy.

GettingTang
12-23-03, 07:58
My personal story and why Prostitution should be accepted.

I grew up in a home where my father was an alcoholic. He was never directly abusive, but was a drunk. The reason my father took up the bottle as his prescribed medication was for an escape from reality. He was married to my mother who was very mentally ill. She was quite unstable and in those days, you kept things of this nature to yourself. There was no profession help or medication. My father and mother had separate bedrooms for over 30 years. They never had sex, or any form of intimate relations. In those days, there was no such thing as abandoning your family and getting a divorce. My father took up his woes in a bottle. This is how he dealt. I would have much rather scene my father, take up the hobby of mongering. It did exist in those days too. (World's oldest profession) Had he lived in this day and chosen to take up mongering as a release from reality and to fulfill his sexual needs, would this have made him a criminal? Would this had led to a group of undercover cops high filing each other and boasting egotistically as civic 2000 puts it, because they just ruined a Man's life? And for what? This is wrong.

No cop knows the real reason why another man mongers. We all have our own issues. For some it's simply the sport and variety of different girls. For others it's a "dope date" where all they are really looking for is companionship. For others, it's the simple act of needing a sexual release. (anyone ever heard of a surrogate sex partner, this actually is called therapy and can be deemed legal, yet the guy is paying for sex! )

I challenge every monger on this board to ask your next hoe you hook up with this question:
"How often do you get dates, where the guy just wants to talk, maybe some petting, or spooning, etc.? If the girl is not some strung out crack hoe and has been at the trade for a while, she will likely respond with a figure of about 20% or 1 in 5 dates!

My point here, is cops, or LE, do not always "know" the reason why a man might be engaging in paying for sex. Or a lack there of. Often the guy will proposition the girl for a sexual service, but actually have no intentions of having sex. When they arrive at the spot to do the deed, he might reveal he just wanted some company, or companionship. This happens far more then most of you realize. Yet, had this girl been undercover, his life as he knows it, is likely to be over.

Even in the event where sex takes place, it should not be the government's business. Our sex lives, unless they bring harm to another human being, is not a crime. We are each born with our own sexuality, and it is our own moral and personal tastes that will guide our preferences.

Once again, I have no beef with LE, I'm not a cop hater. I don't call them bad names. I would call myself an outstanding citizen of this country. I'm 100% law abiding and have respect for all human beings. I have never smoked, drank more then a few with diner on occasion, I don't smoke. I drive the speed limit, I have a good job, I give to numerous charities every year. I'm very much involved in my community and local politics when I can be. I own a home, my neighbors think I'm great. etc, etc, etc.

My personal weakness, besides not being in a situation where I am able to have sex when i want. I like a variety of different girls. I get bored easily. Whenever I date. I'm very polite, a bit on the shy side. I tend to over tip and treat the girls nicer then probably any boyfriend they have ever had. I respect them. This will often result in my getting a true GFE. Sometimes i get stepped on, but not usually. About half the girls i have been with truly enjoy the sex and do get into it. This is another point for LE to haggle with. Many of these girls, will often enjoy themselves. Seriously! Now i know many will say they are faking it, or i'm full of crap. But to those who have been at this for a while, soon realize, it's true. Women, like men, enjoy sex! Many enjoy selling! Is this a crime? LE will all try and paint this pitty picture about how the poor working girl is totally being taken advantage of. In many cases this might be true, but is equally as many, it is not! Many indoor providers, truly do enjoy their trade! They aqctually like meeting new men and enjoying sexual experiences with them. I ask you again, when done discretly and in a manor where no person gets hurt, is this a crime?


So tonight, i have not had sex for three weeks, I decide to run down to my local AMP and get a discreet massage. Just as she is slipping on the condom, the door gets kicked in, the place is being raided. I get busted for solicitation. My life ends as I know it. I ask you, is this right, is it fair?

GETTINGTANG~!

As always, just my two cents worth on this topic, based on fictional events from my imagination!

Country John
12-23-03, 12:07
Civ

You're right - I promised to take this to another forum.

I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I'm getting good info off the forum and having a lot of fun out there mongering when I can. Some of you get it, some of you don't. Now that we know who's who we can get on with the show.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Edit:

Just stopped by to have a look at our new digs. . . .nice.
Thanks Jackson for creating this area for us. We'll try to clean up after ourselves!.

Civ2000
12-23-03, 19:05
Geez Country John, Now that we have our own section I don't have anything negative left to say.

Joe Zop
12-23-03, 19:11
Since this has wandered into a new forum, I hope you all won't mind if pitch in.

I grew up around cops, as my dad was one, and I spent a couple of years as a police officer trainee a million years ago. (I even went on a prostitution sweep once back when I was a pup, which was probably at least partially responsible for my subsequent fascination.) I think one very key issue this discussion is overlooking is this -- by and large, it's not individual cops who are making the decision to make concerted efforts to go after prostitution. That's coming from up top -- from either the senior folks in the police department or from the mayor or other politicos.

Cops don't generally focus on this stuff unless they get complaints from the neighborhood folks or unless there's a policy. Policy on prostitution comes from on high -- there are instructions to "reduce the visibility" of it, or to make examples of people. Individual police officers have nothing to say about impounding cars or putting people's pictures in the paper, on websites, or on TV. Cops are foot soldiers -- they're the proverbial little dutch boy sticking his finger in the dike to stop the water and hoping for help. That's true whether you're talking about prostitution, drug-dealing, whatever. So the real anger for any of this should be directed at the fat cats who make policy and the self-righteous who make victimless crimes illegal.

If I was in a vice squad and I was charged with enforcing prostitution laws (and had no qualms about doing so) I'd most certainly read this forum for info about where the action is. But not to target individuals -- that's both virtually impossible in a forum such as this and pointless, as anything here is fairly useless in terms of arresting anyone, unless someone's dumb enough to say, "I'm gonna go cruise such-and-such street at 11pm -- you boyz give me a shout out if you see my white F150 Heritage." In that case you're too stupid to live in any event, and if the cops don't get you something else will.

The Virgin Terr
12-24-03, 02:03
Many fundamentalist Islamic societies have religious police who go around making sure everyone is obeying their particular interpretation of religious law, including things like praying 5x/day, men having beards, and women being properly covered. In so-called secular western societies, victimless crime laws and vice cops fill this function, and sometimes regular cops also, of course, since it is what they are supposed to do. Just because we don't have overtly religious-baased law and law enforcement doesn't mean we're all that different from societies which do. Certainly prostitution prohibition is puritanically based if not directly relgion based, and cops who enforce it might just as well be termed the puritan police.

Defending puritan police by saying "they're just following orders" is like defending soldiers who knowingly kill civilians, murdering them in cold blood, on orders from their superiors. Cops who bust victimless crime participants do a great deal of harm, whether they realize it or not, and should not be defended by anyone who is offended by the existence of victimless crimes such as prostitution.

Country John
12-24-03, 13:27
JoeZ:

Nice to see you in the Cop Flaming Section! Get that asbestos suit on man! So you're ex LE eh? I knew there was something funny about you ;-)

I owe you a response in the other forum and as soon as I get Santa back up the chimney I'll sit down and bang it out.

People who have not had the training (or the inclination) simply do not understand the LE mentality and that's why they make their outrageous statements about LE. Anyone with LE background understands better how the system works than people with no background as would be expected. Most of the posts I've seen were the same old rhetoric. I welcome disagreement but the mindless dribble - well - what can I say.

Vice was always interesting but I also realized that there were lots of other things I could be doing. Important to remember is that if the SW scene was left to it's own devices, there would be major crime issues that would grow out of the trade. Serious stuff like dope and strong arm robberies and the like. If this sort of crime can be prevented or reduced by a crack down on something as easy as prostitution then let's go with the easier thing -right?

I always felt a little bit sorry for the John, jeez, the guy was looking for a blow job and he was even willing to give the girl money for the deed, now he has a lot of explaining to do and I know that a lot of homes and hearts got broken over it. But they still could not and should not blame the cops. Johns in this forum are placing themselves too high on the food chain. The prostitution scene is only a small part of a very big crime picture.

The typical half-wit moron response to that statement would be something like "....yeah man, that $10. I paid for a blow job is going directly to Bin Laden. . . ." So you're lucky to get anyone to understand this stuff outside LE - hence the flaming.

There is considerable immaturity on this subject. Based on the attitudes and emotions on this board, vice detail will temper their attitude accordingly when the pressure is off and the john is in custody. It is important for players to realize that WE place OURSELVES on the playing field and are therefore "fair game." Something most people in this forum fail to realize.

I also agree that we are telling LE how to catch us. (They already have a lot of data on our MO, I mean what could be easier.)

Maybe we need another section called "I Got Busted."

I remember one time listening to a 459Biz suspect complaining to his partner about the cops being pricks for "interrupting his caper." Man, we were all lower than anything that crawls on the ground without legs. Well, sorry champ, we'll try harder next time to let you make it out before we get there!

To be perfectly honest, if I got VT and GT (not diseases) in an operation and knew who they were from this board, I'd have one hell of a time with them. Just because of their attitiude. (It would all be in good fun - no public parading etc. but just some laughs on the street.) They can't understand this. They don't mind flaming the cops in a public forum but get all wrapped around the axle when it happens to them. Whatever happened to "turnabout" being fair play?

Now I'm sure that the vice reading this will be quick to point out that they do not engage in this sort of behaviour but that is bullshit. A good laugh at the end of a long day is something we all enjoy and they deserve a good chuckle just like we do, even if it is at our expense, not out of cruelty, but in good fun.

So being safe and being smart is how we should do our thing. The cops place a heavy emphasis on being safe and being smart in all operations. We can do it and I think we need a little more organization in that particular area.

Civ:

'Cmon, I know you've got something left in there - open up! You're a medical guy right? Saw a very interesting post from you in another forum. I'll try not to provoke you.

Have a safe and happy holday all.

Country John

PS: I'll be at Holt and Indian Hill tonight at 9:00 in a red Chevy Blazer with tinted windows and a black ski rack looking for SW's. Yeah right!

PS2: LE - thanks for all you do. Be safe and we'll see you on the streets.

Joe Zop
12-24-03, 21:52
Well, VT, again I disagree with you. Should I be excoriating individual American soldiers because they participated in what I considered to be an unjust war in Iraq? Should I spit on every Vietnam vet because I believed that to be another? Should I be condemning as a Nazi every alderman who hasn't voted for legal gambling in my town? By your reasoning, every enforcer of a law or policy that has opposition, of any kind, not only should be questioned but placed in the same category as those who commit crimes against humanity. That's hyperbolic bullshit.

Gee, time for me to get my gun and take out the zoning board, those immoral bastards...

Country John, personally I always felt sorrier for the women than for the johns -- they are trying to make a living, and a generally lousy one at that, and they are at far greater risk, whereas with Johns, ourselves included, the whole scene is an "optional" one -- i.e. your comment about becoming "fair game." But by and large in my town there was very little enforcement or focus on prostitution beyond reacting to the complaints of various businesses and homeowners about the high visibility of streetwalkers and the attendant traffic they brought. Vice only went after prostitution when it simply got to be too "in your face" aggressive, otherwise it was the drug trade, the numbers racket, etc.

I absolutely believe prostitution should be legal, but that doesn't mean that it's somehow pristine right now in its manifestations -- there are still ties to violence, robbery, (anyone here ever been ripped off by a prostitute? I bet there's a law you'd prefer to have the same cop you call a bastard enforce) the hard drug trade, etc. Yes, legalizing it would get rid of lots of those things, but until that happens they're still there.

You know, when I worked in the city jail, I used to say, please lord, tonight give me murderers and rapists, give me arsonists and car thieves, but please, please, please, don't give me normal citizens who have screwed up by being drunk, obnoxious, rowdy to the point of breaking something or taking a poke at someone, caught with their pants down, whatever. Because the latter were always the ones who were going to try to hurt me physically. The hardcore criminals knew they were caught, knew what they did, and didn't blame the cops -- unlike the normal citizen, for whom every policy ought to change simply because it can't possibly apply to them, and who blame those enforcing the laws for their problems as opposed to themselves. These same folks who fight like wild animals being locked up for DUI would scream, at the top of their voices, that the police were to blame if their kid got mowed down by someone with a blood alcohol content half of what they had, if their window was the one that got broken, or if the hookers were servicing tricks in their driveway.

If I'm engaging in the pay-for-play trade in the US, unless I'm in those rare spots in Nevada, I'm at risk. It's a risk I have to be willing to assume to play at this point. I believe the laws ought to be changed. But I'm sure as hell not going to blame someone else if I get burned, and I'm not going to kill the messenger -- we all go into this with our eyes open.

The Virgin Terr
12-27-03, 10:24
Toby Keith has a new country music video titled AMERICAN SOLDIER which vividly dramatizes the sacrifices which men and women in the armed forces must make. The same analogy obviously holds true for LE. In an imperfect world, someone must perform dangerous and distasteful tasks to further the cause of peace and social order, and for that these people deserve respect and appreciation from everyone.

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions for capitalization. To avoid future delays, please refrain from using the "chat room" style of writing with no caps or punctuation. Thanks!

Pokey
12-29-03, 17:44
Regarding the subject Country John, ex L.E. using mulitple I.D.'s.
to meet up with unsuspecting members of this forum.

Ever since the big bad wolf in "Little red riding hood" there hasn't been a person trying so hard to meet mongers down in TJ using deviate ways.

First of all I am not going to name these splits personalties. I would not want to "libel" anyone in the unlikely event I could be wrong. I don't have the sophisticated software "Getting Tang" has, but I had my suspicions. I also don't want to do all the work if you want to meet C.J. in TJ you should check a few things out yourself.

Here is what I came up with and methods I used:

1. Longwinded blustering styles lacking content. In other words nothing specific, names, dates, places.

2. Posting to each other, using same windbag style.

3. Irritatating style, makes your skin crawl reading the mulitple I.E.'s.

4. Having two names xx zzzzz, however we have one names also.

5. Same writing style, paragraphing, finish.

6 etc,etc,etc,

C.J. tries to defend himself by trying to get Jackson to verify if he is using different names. Im sure Jackson has better things to do. But, even if Jackson tried to defend him, it would not help.

C.J. Could easily post from another computer at home, work, family member, internet cafe, etc. All of these would show a different I.P address,

If he knows a little about computers he could use proxy servers, to hide is I.P. address. If he is a criminal( corrupt cop) vice cop, he could use proxy servers, and remote ones, chaining them together, so it would be very hard to trace him. Oh, by the way, He might have ways to get your I.P address, by "pinging" you just talking on this Forum, especially if you email him.

I hope I didn't scare anyone of the Big Bad Wolf.

Pokey
12-29-03, 18:11
Pornstar King came up with a very good scenario regarding C.J.
and he is a newbee to this forum.
"
Another possible scenario is CJ is not LE but is in fact ex-LE who has gone bad and become a drug smuggler. He builds confidence, gets you to bring your car in then has a kilo of cocaine planted underneath your car. You drive your car back across the US border unsuspectingly, which makes you a perfect cover. Then he uses his LE ties to run your license plate info find out where you live and goes and retrieves his package. If you get stopped and popped at the border no skin off his back because he'll just find another "deputy" here on this board to do his dirty work."

Hey, this makes sense, CJ could be ex vice, doesn't vice do both drugs and prostitution? We already know from his writings he is depraved, he cheats on his wife(oh well lots of mongers do) But the big one is even if he is ex L.E. he is not upholding his promise to uphold the law. He picks up SW's in the states.( thats a crime according to him you should be busted)

Things just don't add up. He claims to be an experienced monger, but yet, meets up with " pimp hustlers" type guys to get SW's in the alley. He says he has business in TJ. What kind of business can an ex cop have in TJ? What does he do, have a factory hiring cheap labor? Or is he talking to his drug lords thinking of ways to plant drugs in your car, or blackmail you. He also believes
that TJ cops are hard working, he says never offer them a bribe?
He puts out lots of disinformation, for example, in the states, just ask an undercover lady cop, if she is a cop and she has to tell you the truth. ( yah right)

Heres is the big one to me. He no longer invites me to TJ for operation AlleyKat II. The reason, he knows I never drive my car in TJ. He can't plant anything in my car.

I know, most of you don't believe this. I understand, heck some of you even do Chica's sin-condom,(without a condom) so why would you be scared to meet with C.J.

May I suggest if there are lots of you,meet him in a dead bar like other forums do, like La Tropa, word gets out to girls, and they will come. AB is always had too many people.

Buy CJ a drink for me.

Joe Zop
12-29-03, 19:29
Umm, maybe CJ's simply ex-LE, period. Who likes to get laid. I realize that doesn't exactly have the brilliant romantic conspiracy theory attached to it, as does the drug dealer fantasy, but c'mon!

GettingTang, would you be so kind as to name the software you've used? I say this because the last reading I did between of discussions between linguists on the subject of software author analysis by comparison of writing samples (which is admittedly several years old) said nothing reliable existed, though people were working on them. Since you're making a fairly serious accusation, the least you could do is allow people to judge for themselves whether or not your claims of conclusiveness are reasonable by letting us consider the software program involved.

VT, I have no disagreement with you that people in authority, including police, at times abuse that authority. I believe such folks deserve to be held fully accountable for their missteps, as that is a violation of the public trust. There's an unfortunately high number of control freaks in law enforcement, (something I wish psych testing was better at screening out) the para-military nature of the culture does lead to the same positives and negatives of being part of a "troop" and I'm certainly not defending LE who are personally vindictive or abusive. But just because some people disagree with that law, enforcing it is not being vindictive or morally disingenuous.

I'm a big fan of Hannah Arendt, but she was a political theorist and moralist and not a psychologist, and she generally disdained empiricism. I don't recall her ever doing experiments -- you (and McCarthy) might be referring to Stanley Milgram's famous experiments about getting people to administer high levels of electric shocks to people when told to by authority. (It's important to note, in those experiments, that this basically happened only when the authority was present and instructing, not when the individual was making the choices.) Again, I don't disagree that most people tend toward conformity and concern about fitting into the norm, but I feel that's an unapt comparison here. Every person who does their job without questioning every single piece of it is not necessarily contributing to the next Nazi regime.

Police officers specifically take an oath to uphold the laws of the community they're serving, and thus serve as agents of those laws, sublimating themselves and their beliefs in the same way we expect, say, a judge to use the laws of the community and not those of his personal religion in making decisions. Attacking those laws, if they're wrong, is the right approach, not attacking the agents of enforcement. (The former might make you feel better, but it's completely futile.) Personally, I consider rape and domestic violence to be social atrocities -- prostitution being illegal is stupid, unnecessary, a waste or resources, an unwelcome intrusion into the rights of consenting adults, etc., but it's not the Holocaust, and I find attempts to paint it that way offensive.

Country John
12-29-03, 20:53
Hello again Joe:

Confirming that CJ is ExLe who likes to get laid. He really really likes to get laid. He really really really likes to get laid. He also has no time to worry about Poki or GT or anyone else. I've read some very amusing posts in the last few months. I really was surprised at them but no more. I have a lot of useful advice for my brother mongerers, but only eyeball to eyeball, I would NEVER post it here.

I've PM'd one of the seemingly sane critical posters with my contact number at the office so he can call and we can chat. This was early this morning - still no response by 4:30 PM. Maybe this was a stupid move, we'll have to see.

So far the only liar I've uncovered is GT who still has not delivered the goodies. After all his bullshit, you think he'd have the balls to say he was just kidding. Why am I not surprised? GT will not name the software package he is "using" because he is not "using" a software package. This will go nowhere. He knows it, I know it. What's really interesting is watching him backtrack from the issue.

Poki has read too many comic books. He is actually a GT fan, jeez - what must that be like? If Poki had balls, he'd meet me and buy me a beer himself but you know what - Poki, I'll buy your beer for the evening! You don't have to bring your car, just your own big beautiful self. How's that for an invite?

There are excellent reasons why certian MPs are busted and others are not, why johns are sometimes not busted, etc. etc.
There are things you can say and do to get out of the soup.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in here.

Don't give yourself too much credit Poki, not yet anyway.

CJW - Thanks for the vote of confidence. Honolulu is pretty hot down by the Int'l Marketplace - cops everywhere. Here in Kalifornia, LE has a 24hour Duty To Act, meaning they are never really "off duty," just beween shifts. I'm not sure if it is the same in Hawaii or not. Should be there in February, I'll check.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

PS Joe Zop - we have an ongoing thread that I'll pick up soon, I don't want to let it fall between the cracks mate - been very busy.

Lee Bog
12-30-03, 00:54
Hello All,

If LE meets up with you here in the US, then he witnesses you pick up an SG etc in TJ to do the deed, are you in trouble with the law when you get back in the US?

My apologies if this has been answered before. I just can't find the post! Happy holidays!

Joe Zop
12-30-03, 01:35
Crazy Jim: There are a number of reasons you've not seen massage parlor busts on COPS. You're really unlikely to, honestly, in the same way that you don't tend to see, say, white-collar crime busts on that show.

In order to nail a customer in a massage parlor so that it sticks, there basically need to be a couple of aspects -- either they have to fairly literally catch you in the act (hint -- stop fucking if you hear a commotion and put your towel on!) or there needs to be a sting so that you're snagged on camera or for solicitation. Bottom line -- it's always tough to nail people who are doing things behind closed doors unless you have help.

Most of the massage parlor busts that have taken place over the last several years have been federal -- the feds have been going after massage parlors state by state as part of racketeering investigations, and the essence of those has been to wipe out or cripple such parlors in many areas. Local police can set up a sting, they can just come in and roust people, but they're gonna have a hard time making anything stick other than your personal humiliation unless they can prove that you gave money to the lovely little thing who's speaking directly to your private parts. The feds follow the money, the legal status of the workers, etc.

The bottom line is that going to massage parlors is very much safer than picking up ladies on the streets. It's safer than hooking up with an unverified independent provider who has a website, as cops can easily set something like that up. It's probably also safer than hooking up with escort services unless you positively know that the service is legit and continues to be, as that's not terribly difficult to set up as a sting operation and it's also something that, once busted, can be turned. That said, doing anything other than simply kicking in the door and messing with people takes a concerted effort by LE that involves, money, planning, and a fair amount of time, and those are things that are generally not invested unless someone's got something political to gain.

My personal philosophy is that if you happen to end up in one of the latter scenarios, you're simply screwed -- it's damned tough to properly sniff them out if the authorities invest the resources to set one up. Luckily, they're generally not set up simply to whack at mongers -- they're usually after the proprietors of such establishments, and the money.

Oh, btw, Jim -- there are few better people to drink with than cops! They're not shy about putting it away, have great stories, and remember you forever in a positive way if you buy LOL!

Choosy Guy
12-30-03, 02:31
I'm not sure if this is more appropriate in LE or Morality, but it makes me think about how much some people want to control others and, how far they will go to that end.

Dec 29, 10:17 am ET

RIYADH (Reuters) - Morality police in southern Saudi Arabia plan to conduct raids to ensure that shops do not sell flowers, candles and gifts to those planning to celebrate New Year, a local newspaper reported on Monday.
The Arabic-language al-Watan said the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (APVPV) in Aseer province was determined to uphold a ban by the conservative Muslim kingdom on non-Muslim celebrations.

"Patrols will be dispatched to gift and flower shops in the next two days before the New Year to ensure that ornaments are not sold for New Year celebrations," al-Watan quoted the local APVPV head as saying.

The authority -- a pillar of the ultra-conservative kingdom since its founding -- had also banned Christmas ornaments from shops. It also bans shops from carrying Valentine's Day gifts.

"For Muslims, there are only two holidays in a year: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha," the official said, referring to the Muslim feasts that follow the annual fasting month of Ramadan and the haj pilgrimage to Mecca.

Located near the border with Yemen, Aseer is a traditional route for militants and arms smuggling into the kingdom.

Answerable only to King Fahd and separate from ordinary police, members of the authority patrol the streets with police escort, ensuring that their strict interpretation of Islamic customs are upheld.

Miller2k
12-30-03, 03:22
sorry I'm a little late here, but I just found this new little corner of our mongering world.

Getting Tang: You were right on with your post on 12/23 (again, sorry for jumping in late). For the "john", prostitution is, in so many cases, a release and/or an escape from some underlying issue. It is indeed a form of therapy for most of us. As a young man lacking many of the social graces, mongering helped me build up confidence and release some of my pent-up feelings and emotions. Now, in my 30's, its a way to relieve stress and have fun in between relationships. For LE to bust a "John" is almost like arresting a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread. Sure, technically, stealing is against the law, but arresting a starving man for stealing that bread is just cold. The only one who really has a legitimate argument against the theft is the store owner who had his bread stolen. In this case, the store owner can be compared to the residents in the community where prostitution is taking place.

Ok, ok, enough with the talk about stolen bread. Prostitution can have a negative impact on neighborhoods and, therefore, should be controlled to a certain degree. I know that I wouldn't like to have hookers standing on the corners while my kids played football in the back yard. Prostitution, like any other illegal activity attracts other illegal activities. So, the solution is so easy...make prostitution legal. Regulate it and make red-light zones for the girls and their clients to conduct business safely. (like here, where I live in Mexico) Personally, I always steered clear of the SW scene when I lived in the USA. I didn't want to take a part in ruining another family's neighborhood. Having a red-light district would be the sane option to make, but it will never happen ( at least not in our lifetime).

There are too many self-righteous morons who want to make points for being anti-"perversion" (while they often do the same things in private). They try to convince everyone that the "Johns" are in some way perverted or that they are inferior losers because they "have to pay for sex." This is so obviously not the case in most cases. However, us mongers help them by remaining silent and refusing to take our arguments to the public (myself included). We remain anonymous and therefore are easy targets for the judgemental bastards. It is completely ridiculous for prostitution to be illegal. How insane is it that we can hire a woman to cook us dinner in the privacy of our own homes yet we can't hire a woman for sex. In both cases we are paying for service rendered. If we took a woman on a shoping spree and then out to a fancy restaurant before taking her home and having sex, that is fine. Yet, if we give her the cash instead of the goods, the sex is illegal. Goddamn ridiculous. The writer Charles Bukowski had a theory that prostitution is illegal and so unpopular among feminists because it establishes a set price for pussy that makes it harder for the "regular" women to overcharge in terms of what they want in order to finally decide to sleep with a man. In other words, prostitution is a sort of "blue book" for the value of pussy and it helps prevent us men from being taken advantage of by women. But that's a topic for another day and maybe another section.

In closing, I'd just like to say that LE is not our enemy. 99% of them are good guys who are doing their job. They are there to keep the streets safe and crime-free. I'm sure they would rather be doing something other than busting a guy looking for a BJ too, but, much like soldiers, they are there to follow others regardless of what they think of them at the time. The real enemies are the cowards who make the laws and insist on legislating against something that, if done correctly, is relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things.

Also, us "clients" need to have respect for the neighborhoods where we do our "dating" (if one is into the SW scene). Because, until we get this legalized, we are technically criminals and are subject to arrest. We need to be discreet so that the residents aren't disturbed and careful so that LE doesn't have to arrest us.

So, those were my 3 cents worth. Having said all that, though, I'm so happy to be living in Mexico where prostitution is not such a big issue and a guy can go get laid without having to worry about having his life ruined.

Be safe and have fun,

From: The Happiest Man Alive

GettingTang
12-30-03, 06:52
Lets get a few facts straight here. First off CJ, we can agree to duke it out here in this forum? Okay with you?

My only intentions with the original post under the TJ forum, was to warn other mongers of your possible intentions. Okay, got it? Nothing personal. Remember, we are all nameless, faceless text! I based this on some very in-depth analysis of your posts. I have followed them since day one. I have an IQ of 144 (that's the truth) I recall and remember most everything I read. Some of your posts, DO NOT ADD UP!

You have now done something you accuse everyone else of doing, you're taking my posts and issues regarding LE and prostitution and twisting it around to fit into your nice neat little box. I.E., I have said numerous times, I have no major issues with LE. I'm a law abiding citizen who in fact supports LE. My only, single issue with LE and or the law in general is simply that prostitution should not be illegal. It is not a crime in my opinion! That's it! Nothing else! Now even with the issue regarding prostitution, I have said numerous times, it should not be full on legal. I have said each city should have a regulated area to allow the trade to go on legally. Are we clear on this issue? I am NOT in support of pimps, drug pushers, stung out crack hoes, etc, etc. I'm all for LE rounding up all of these types! I have even been known to call the police on these characters myself!

Now lets asses your statement regarding who it would be a big kick for LE and yourself to bust me. First of all, if you have read any number of my reports, you will soon see, they are fictitious, as stated right in many of my posts. I like to read my own make- believe stories and this forum is a way for me to vent! I do not engage in or solicit sex in any shape or manor! Got it?

You on the other hand brag about how it would be hilarious to see someone like me get busted. I had to laugh my ass off at this one. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE THE EX COP. Who do you really think we be the bearer of more shame, me or you? Just really goes to show you the mindset of this guy, (you), now doesn't it?

You contradict yourself so much it's incredible! On one hand you claim to be one of the "fellow mongers", on the other, you tell mongers, they are bad, should be ashamed and get what they deserve if busted?!?! You make no sense. You try to intice people by addressing them as a brotherhood or something. Mongering does not work like an AA group. Sorry, but it does not!

You push and push to meet up with mongers. Again, 99.9% of mongers by nature are suspicious people. THE LESS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, THE BETTER!

As for your persistent request for my proof regarding multiple posts in this forum. Well, lets just say I have fully satisfied my own suspicion of you. Nothing else matters.

Last, I really don't care what you're really up to. As I always say, to each his own. Consider me the forum referee, I'm neutral. I JUST CALL THEM LIKE I SEE THEM!

GETTINGTANG~!

Country John
12-30-03, 13:39
Another rediculous post from GT.

Congratulations on your IQ. My question to you is that if you really have that sort of capacity, why the hell do you not use it?

I don't take it personally and I'd certainly buy you a beer at AB regardless of our exchanges on this board.

You're the one posting fantasies. Your post was so "bi-polar" I almost threw my back out reading it.

You stated that I was posting under multiple ID's for the purpose of the entrapment of other members. This is a lie, and you should straighten it out. You should admit that your software detection thing was bullshit and restore some credibility in the forum.

If you think for just one minute that I am going to let you blow this off you are sadly mistaken. People have a right to know who is for real and who lies.

To say it only matters to you is another attempt to avoid being responsible for the lies. If this is the case you should never have lied in the first place.

I enjoy having people around and the fellowship that this forum has to offer. A lot of good people belong to this forum and it is a pleasure to meet them.

This forum is not who we are, it's what we do. I am about including people, not excluding people, entraping people, busting people etc etc. I'm not here lying to people - you are.

IN any event, anyone who reads your posts should understand that you lie and then expect others to just accept your data whether it is a fantasy or not. Maybe, in your case, you simply alter reality and then tell the truth about it. I wonder just how much of what you posted in the past is true - an interesting exercise would be to check it out. Sounds like a project for '04.

How can you "Warn" anyone of "possible" intentions based on lies man. If you truly believed in the forum you would not engage in this sort of behavior.

I'm not interested in "duking it out" because unless I'm dealing with someone with integrity I'm wasting my time.

I have no issues with anyone "calling them as they see them" as you claim to do, but when your observations are based on lies then it doesn't matter how you "call them" because you clearly can't "see" anything other than the fantasies you create with that IQ of yours.

I'm OK with wandering the alley alone. I'm OK with going to AB alone, I've done it. Doesn't really matter if members do not want to hook up but it's nice to know that when you're in TJ you're not alone when you have like minded members meet up. Why not enjoy the fellowship that the forum offers?

Instead, your choice is to post informatin that amounts to nothing less than a bare faced lie and then just blow it off like it doesn't really matter any way. Your comments are toxic and the intention behind them is to spit in someone elses soup. I have difficulty reconciling that with someone who claims to have a 144 IQ.

"Getting a few facts straight" is something you should work at carefully. You clearly do not have a track record of "getting facts straight."

Be Safe and BE NICE

Country John

GettingTang
12-30-03, 14:37
Once again,
As I fully expected he addressed only two issues out of a dozen. He ridiculed my IQ and still insists I'm a liar regarding my knowledge of his multiple aliases. Read my last post people, then read his. He AGAIN fails to address anything in it?!?! He is doing the classic avoidance and denial routine!

If anyone on this board REALLY wants to understand CJ, it's rather simple................brew a big cup of coffee and spend a few hours reading this guys posts. You will soon see a pattern. Nuff said!

GETTINGTANG~!

Joe Zop
12-30-03, 14:53
Well, GT, you're the one who's asserting that you absolutely know that he's posting under multiple identities, asserted you used software to conclusively prove this, but you now say that you've satisfied yourself and nothing else matters. So, in other words, it's perfectly ok for you to slander CJ and offer no proof, because, well, you're smart and you say so. But him taking a whack at you as a liar is somehow unfair.

My IQ's in the same ballpark as yours, and I can sure as hell see logical fallacies when they bite me. You're neutral? A referee? That's hilarious! C'mon, guys, let this rest -- it's just a typical online personality disagreement. No one can "prove" anything in a place where, as you say, it's all just made up stories being posted.

Civ2000
12-30-03, 16:09
Howdy Fellas, I thought it might be time to jump in and use this area of the board that Jackson gave us.

Tang, I agree with most of the stuff you post about Country John, but it would really help your credibilitiy if you would let them know the name of the software program. Unless of course it is some top secret government program that is illegal for you to possess. If it's something you can buy at the local computer store, then just let us know.

As far as Country John goes, yes he is a walking, talking, condradiction. He vigorously defends law enforcement officers and in practically the same breath admits that he is a petty criminal. Yes, you are a petty criminal if you break prostitution laws, even if you don't agree with them. He supports law enforcement, yet gives advice on how to outsmart law enforcement. It would be like supporting the war in Iraq and supporting the troops, and then posting in an Iraqi board on the soldiers tactics and how to circumvent their plans. Sorry John, but I don't think LE would consider an ex-cop who thinks nothing about breaking the law and gives advice over the internet on how to thwart their efforts to control prostitution a friend of theirs. Someone who posts and lets others know where to procure prostitutes, etc. You said once before that you didn't understand my logic here. What don't you understand?

Also, I think CJ must have retired quite a while ago. For ex-LE to give out such bogus advice like a cop has to tell you he's a cop if asked is complete BS. Maybe that was the case twenty years ago. Kind of like going to a doctor who retired twenty years ago for heart surgury. A lot changes in a short time. I don't think CJ is malicious in his reporting, I just don't think he takes the time to check all his facts. I think he bases a lot of his beliefs on common sense. For example I posted an exerpt of the Seattle loitering law which stated in part that driving up and asking if one was a cop in a prostitution area was part of the basis for determining whether one was guilty of prostitution loitering. Common sense would dictate that of course that wouldn't be against the law as CJ pointed out. But the law clearly states otherwise. I think sometimes laws are passed which are unconstitutional, with the authorities knowing full well that they will work to control things like prostitution, and that most people will not have the resources (money) to challenge the law.

I also think that CJ is not out to arrest, blackmail, plant drugs, etc... I think this is simply paranoia. I think CJ just prefers the company of others and thinks its fun to meet for a few beers, go their seperate ways, and then meet to tell stories over a couple of more beers. Although I usually monger in solitude, this does sound like it could be fun. I may make it down to San Diego later this coming year and would love to buy CJ a beer and have someone to show me the Tijuana ropes. Let me know if you would be amiciable to this CJ.

As far as the police go I still believe them to be about the unfriendliest, arrogant, self-centered people I know. Is this the case with all of them? Of course not. I have a few childhood friends who became cops and they are great people. It just seems to me that most (not all) became cops because they are power and control freaks. The kid that got picked on in the school yard is now a cop and using his power as a cop to conquer his feelings of powerlessness he felt as a child. Several cops I know tell me this is partially why the divorce rate is so high among cops. They have all this power and control on the job; people are afraid of them; and then they go home and try to exert that same control on their kids and spouses with no luck. Most simply love the high they get from bullying people.

I was down at a bike path last summer. A couple of middle-aged ladies were roller skating and some bike cops were coming towards them. The ladies moved to one side and this one cop deliberately forced her off the path. She fell and skinned her knee. The bike cops didn't stop or appoligize. I saw them laughing as they rode off together. This epitomizes my feelings towards the police. I have seen many such examples over the years. Anyone who is not LE is the enemy. I treat LE with the utmost respect. I think it's why most of the times I've been pulled over I haven't gotten a ticket. I am honest, polite, and don't try to BS them (unless of course I'm doing something I could get arrested for). But I just haven't seen them return the favor. Technically they work for us--the tax paying citizen. But try convincing them of that.

Like I've said before, the individual cops are just following orders of their superiors, namely the Mayor and the Chief. But do they have to relish busting some poor john so much? Laughing and high-fiving because they get to take his car and ruin his life for receiving a blow job. I don't think they look at prostitution the same way we do. They see us supporting some young hooker's drug habit, the blight on neighborhoods, kids picking up discarded condoms in their front yards, needles, pimps, disease, etc. I don't think I've ever witnessed "victimless" street prostitution. But I think the cops would be better served to show some understanding, compassion, etc., which is hard because they may be on the street, but they're really back in that schooyard being picked on and now it's time for them to fight back.

Civ2K

Pokey
12-30-03, 18:03
Civ 2000,

Your reports are great, you show you understand this posting "windbag" I say that in a good way. He just might be nothing but a "uncle Charlie" likes to sit around drinking beer tell tall tales, even if you know they are not true; they are fun to hear anyway.

I disagree with you on two points and one of those points could get you trouble if your not careful.

One, this guy is not someone you want to show you the "ropes" in TJ.
I know one thing for sure. This guy is not the experience Monger he professes to be. He usually goes with street girls, where you only get basic service, just like a car date in the U.S. He can't or won't approach a girl himself. He uses hustler pimp like guys, these guys are bad news. What usually happens is you lose your money to these guys, sometimes they plant drugs on you and work with corrupt cops to shake you down for money.
This guy need to learn to appoach a girl on her own.

Two, regarding Getting Tangs,( this guy knows what he is talking about. I would like to meet him one day.) He doesn't owe anybody anything. He didn't libel anyone real, this is a made up name, not a real person. He can always get a new name from this board and start using it.( oh yah, he already does)

Oh, by the way there is software that can check writing styles. For example Spitbol-386 kinda a computer language can do this job. Hell, why use those methods, my methods I outlines in earlier post did a great job.

Civ2000
12-30-03, 18:25
Pokey, Hey no disrespect intended for Tang. It just might quiet his detractors a bit if he would mention the name of the software. I enjoy his excellent reports. Besides there are some guys on the Patterson, New Jersey board who might like the software to check out DeeUncola. I wonder if Dee and CJ might be related?

Second, Not to defend CJ here, but I think in all his posts he's mentioned using a hustler only once. I would ride into TJ with him, have a beer or two in Adelita's or whatever it's called, and then have some fun. For someone who has never been in Mexico, I've heard there's some places to avoid, some places to see, and having a buddy along to BS with and exchange stories with over a beer certainly doesn't sound dangerous to me.

Joe Zop
12-30-03, 18:42
Well said, Civ2000.

Pokey -- Spitbol-386/Snobol? Are you kidding? That's like saying you can uncover accounting errors with Cobol. A compiler that does wonderful character string manipulation is not linguistic analysis. (I presume you're joking about your "analysis," as that was clearly just an ad hominem attack: "Having two names?!?"LOL!) And if GT didn't besmirch anyone real, why's he worrying about being called a liar by some imaginary character? Uh-oh -- you want to meet him. Sounds like you must be deep cover LE to me...

Pokey
12-30-03, 19:24
Joe,
I can tell by your writing you have a high I.Q. I wish I could write so elegantly. I don't know you, but I would venture to guess you quit the force Cop/Jail because of your intelligence. You didn't believe that crap and brain wash techniques they use on young recuits.

Why do you stick up for C.J. Do you not see anything wrong with an ex L.E. breaking the law doing S.W.'s. and bragging about it on a website site, that L.E. watches.

Tell me something, did your father when he was a cop, go out and do S.G's, if you don't know ask your Mom, a wife always knows.( how I don't know how) Then go out and brag about it!!
It just doesn't happen.

I too had a family member as a LAPD, a little step brother. I watched in horror how he changed. He worked for a short time in the skid roll area of L.A. a hot area for SW's years back. I use to work near that area at the time. He would have busted if I was doing anything, no questions asked. Thank god he quit the force.
But, once a cop always a cop, if he see's somthing going down, he jumps in to help, he would never do anything to embarrass the force.

You commented on comformity a few post back. I wonder are you aware of the classic social study by Lambardo Sanford Univ 1971.
They got two groups of students, and made one group prison guards and the other group inmates. They had to abort the study because the groups really took on the rolls and turned satanically.

I think that happens all too often to cops, thats why the FBI takes trainees out of their element and family, and always puts them in a new city, for the metamorphosis to take effect.

I know cops are just following orders, but they learn to enjoy busting "johns" and destoying their lives. I just can't embrace vice cops.

Its getting worst now, for the monger. You can now get busted and get your car taken away from you, just by cruising by an area too much. The L. E. just tramples all over your rights.

Hey, I can't even get a good safe lap dance anymore if Ashcroft has his way. Instead of using the Patriot act to get terrorists, the Ashcroft is using it go after Cheatahs strip joint in Las Vegas and San Diego. Goverment may now go after us for web surfing by merely telling a judge anywhere that the spying is relevant to an investigation. ( maybe thats why C.J. is collecting his database, maybe he is FBI, DEA, CIA, or full of BS) I just don't know.

I think the police should stop putting the scare into mongers, because they like pussy.
I guess it fun to bust an attracted sexy often naked women with dangerous breasts, that can provide preasure, then to go after big bad criminals that hurt people and have guns.

Country John
12-30-03, 19:25
Civ:

Interestng post.

You don't have to have a hateful attitude towards LE to be a criminal on any level (although I've heard it helps in some cases). Because I engage in the same activity you do I'm a walking contradiction because I'm not like YOU? 'Cmon, you're smarter than that.

My le days date back to 1985 so a lot may have changed and apparently it has but some thngs have NOT. I certainly could use a refresher on current law but I'm really not THAT interested. While I still have friends in low places, drinking buddies really, I'm too old for the LE game. Better left to the young'ns.

The benefit of my experience might not be such a benefit at all but I've managed to use my wits and hard won experience to avoid and get out of certain situations that I'm sure I could not have otherwise.

My advice to others was intended to help minimize the risk of getting busted, not to outsmart LE as you stated because you and I know they read the board and they know the score. I'm not sharing intel on criminal activity, we're not robbing banks, killing people, stealing cars or engaging in destructive behavior exept perhaps to ourselves; we're mongering guys here and me being one wanted to help out where I could. How this becomes

"... gives advice on how to outsmart law enforcement. It would be like supporting the war in Iraq and supporting the troops, and then posting in an Iraqi board on the soldiers tactics and how to circumvent their plans. Sorry John, but I don't think LE would consider an ex-cop who thinks nothing about breaking the law and gives advice over the internet on how to thwart their efforts to control prostitution a friend of theirs.

is beyond me. Isn't it obvious that I have disagreements with the fact that prostitution is illegal. I think it's a lame law and is a terrible waste of resources etc etc. I honestly don't think is rises to the level you describe though Civ.

I can just as easily refrain from giving advice and, from this moment on I shall. Clearly it was a mistake to admit to being ex-LE.

The fact is that I am not le at this time (I do drive a Crown Vic P71 though, had it since new-wouldn't own any other type). I've owned my business since 1995 and been in the private sector since, as I stated earlier 1985. Much safer out here most of the time.

I guess if we look close enough we'll find what looks like contradictions in everyone's posts. I'd be happy to address each perceived contradiction as It was certainly not my intent to post conflicting or mis-leading data and I would actually appreciate hearing about it and having the opportunity to respond either by PM or in this forum. Perfection has not been one of my claims (although I've been told that I am very very close and my mom would vigorously assert that point on my behalf).

The one thing in this forum I am NOT however is a LIAR.

GT should not only post the name of the S/ware program but also the actual "Identities" I am "using" to post on this board.

I also think others should demand the same lest they become a target of his IQ. We can easily verify his claim but he won't post the ID's because he lied and he knows it.

If you're smart enought to find what you say are contradictions in my posts, then your must surely see this as well.

I've also known my share of cops who should never have made it. Some are in jail as I write this post. Just like every other profession. I have definite opinions about it, better left unshared at this time. Wherever I saw that kind of behaviour I was saddened because I had different ideas about why people become policemen. Call me an idealist if you like, and perhaps I am but again I have a bit more experience at this stuff that you.

I know many good men and women who did a lot of honest and good work in the field. So I am unshakable in my opinions in that regard previous comments not withstanding.

I am not stupid about it however and I understand that everyday some cops do nasty things. It's a real shame but wholesale condemnation of a group because of the actions of a few is juvenile but that seems almost silly to suggest in this forum so it tells me that maybe I belong to the wrong group and should just do the big "log off" forget about it- find another forum or just lurk from here on out.

Well, you can forget about that. Country John is here to stay.

Say what you want in this very liberal forum. I've read some very interesting posts, some of the best reading I've seen in a while in any open forum.

The lying about me having multiple IDs however is a different story. There is no sense of fair play that involves lying and GT is a liar.

We can hurl insults all day long. We can challenge contradictions which is really a good thing. Outright lying is another thing. I don't know about you guys but it should not be considered acceptable behaviour in this arena. Why do you accept it so easily here- am I missing something?

The only pattern GT sees is the one through those "fantasy" glasses of his, probably the same ones that tell him he has 144 IQ.

And one more thing, if you have a specific issue or item you would like to call me on, then be specific. I'll gladly answer and I won't lie.

I'd like to hook up and share a beer - I'll buy. The one thing you won't need to concern yourself with is dealing with a liar (except for the ones with the big tits - jeez Civ, you're on your own there mate).

And one more thing, I'm not letting it go. As long as I have the strength to turn on the computer, log on and type I'll be calling GT on his lies. He's (or she's) the one who will end it by either putting up or admitting. So far he's done neither so to borrow a phrase from his posts, I'm "calling it like I see it."

And one more thing, have a safe and happy new year.

Be Safe and BE NICE

Yours FORFUCKINGEVER
Country John

PS: I'll be in TJ next Thursday morning (early) and will hit the alley around 1 in the afternoon until about 5PM. PM me if you can make it.

GettingTang
12-30-03, 21:18
Country John Quote from 12/30: "is beyond me. Isn't it obvious that I have disagreements with the fact that prostitution is illegal. I think it's a lame law and is a terrible waste of resources etc etc. I honestly don't think is rises to the level you describe though Civ."

Country John quote from this thread on 12/22:

"You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow.

The LE who read these posts know exactly how to treat you when they CATCH you man. After reading the shit you post, if I were you I would not wonder anymore about why LE carries on the way they do when they catch you. You deserve EVERY bit and maybe more. Their view of mongerers is influenced, among other things by what you write here and if you don't give a shit about it then why the hell are you posting it?

Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it.

Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongerers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message. " END CJ QUOTE

And this guy claims he never contradicts himself?

Look, I'll say it one last time. As far as I'm concerned, he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I do not know with any absolute certainty what he's up to. It is just my opinion, it's not as he presents himself. The rest is up to your imagination. If you feel safe meeting with this guy after reading the above, then do so! If not, then don't!

GETTINGTANG~!

Civ2000
12-30-03, 21:41
Yeah Country John you would never give advice on how to outsmart the cops at their own game or try to thrwart the efforts of a sting operation or would you? The following is a quote of one of your Anaheim posts. Enjoy guys: its some of the best fiction I've ever read. Civ2K

Are you with me so far? Good.

Now, you are faced with one of these here what you call one of them there dilemas. How do you know if you are going to be busted?

Have a tape recorder (really cheap) rolling in the car for your protection. "Hi Baby, I am not a law enforcement officer . .are you a law enforcement officer or are you employed by any law enforcement agency?" "Are you on duty at this time? " "Do you have police identification?" "Are you here for the possible purpose of arresting me for solicitation?" "Are you now working as part of an undercover sting operation?" "Are you about to offer sex for money?" Go ahead, don't be scared. . .ask the fucking questions.

She might say (laughingly) "Do I look like a law enforcement officer?" You say : "THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER are you a law enforcement officer or are you employed by any law enforcement agency?" "Are you on duty at this time? " "Do you have police identification?" "Are you here for the possible purpose of arresting me for solicitation?" "Are you now working as part of an undercover sting operation?" "Are you about to offer sex for money?"

If she states that the is in fact NOT a LEO, and specifically says no (on tape) to the questions then mate - it's ON. Refer to your "payment" as a "donation to help her out." You are NOT "paying her to have sex." If she bullshits you and then busts you, then you've got it on tape and your attorney will take it from there, and he should have a shit load of fun with it.

Tell her you want to drive for a bit but you will take her back to where you picked her up. If she doesn't want to play, get her OUT of the car.

DO NOT EVER EVER EVER discuss money or sex until you drive at LEAST 1/2 mile away from where you picked her up and YOU DON'T EVER EVER start the dialog. Make the SW read the menu, tell her to grab your nuts etc etc all BEFORE discussing donations for the betterment of her education.

Civ2000
12-30-03, 22:31
CJ, Don't get me wrong. You seem like a nice guy. I just see some newby reading your advice and seeing that it is written by an ex-LE and thinking that such tactics will work for him. I have no problem with anyone giving advice but realize the consequences of bad advice are enormous. If I knew my advice could cost a monger his job, wife, car ,etc, I would be very careful to dispense only that which I knew to be true. But then again according to you the monger gets only what he deserves--even if its because he trusted you.

Civ2K

Joe Zop
12-31-03, 01:38
Pokey -- personally (and maybe this is just the ex-catholic in me) I don't see any big deal, as you and others do, about someone who's an ex-cop deciding he's going to hire hookers. Yes, it's against the law. So what? Don't the rest of us make the same decision? If I'm an ex-McDonald's worker do I need to continue to profess my belief that the Big Mac is the pinnacle of modern civilization? ex-LE means ex -- you're no longer bound by your promise to uphold the laws. (And to be honest, there's always a double-standard anyway -- I used to be able to tell when one of my partners was high by whether or not he would catch his car keys when he tossed them in the air. Could I prove it? Nope. Would I if I could? Not unless he was putting me or someone else at risk.)

I know cops who are utter assholes. I know cops who are the nicest people in the world. I don't feel compelled to hear someone is a cop and decide which of those categories they fall into until I actually know them. I agree absolutely that the paramilitary structure encourages an "us vs. them" mentality, but so does dealing all day with people who are mostly not terribly nice folks (and I'm referring here to criminals!) My father, a cop, used to say that he needed interaction with his family and neighbors to remind him that most people were good and nice to be around, because that wasn't his work experience. He struggled with it at times, though he was pretty good about keeping things straight and wasn't one of the authority-freak kinds, but I think that's a trap many fall into. No, he didn't go do street girls -- but isn't the question you're asking really whether or not that's ok for anyone who's married to do? That's a different issue entirely than whether the guy happens to be a cop.

Me? I was just a young pup who had a job for a short time, basically thirty years ago. Never intended to be there for long, spent half my free time reading then about philosophy, chess, and existentialism, learned a ton, and saw things that gave me nightmares for years and years and years. My time on the force was one of the better learning experiences of my life, not only because of things I saw but because of things I learned about myself. I learned, for example, that I've got the same gene flaw that you say your step-brother has -- I tend to get involved when something's going down, smartly or not.

As far as defending CJ, well, mostly I'm not a fan of online gang fights. To me the guy's been pretty straightforward about where he's coming from -- you can like it or not, but that doesn't mean it all has to devolve into conspiracy theory, personal attacks, or that we need to somehow hold this guy up to a higher standard than anyone else. I mean -- why is he a SOB for for being involved in PFP and nobody else here is? And though I think GT is an intelligent guy who has a lot of good things to say, I also think, based on reading lots of his posts in the Thailand section and elsewhere, that he's someone who loves to get into personal arguements on this site, who revels in defending himself against "unjust" attacks. That's fine, we all need to express out machismo, and I hope he gets what he wants out of it, but I don't always feel it's fair to the other posters involved in the equation.

In terms of your point about mongers and cops enjoying busting them, well, I don't think that runs terribly counter to one of CJ's points -- cops, who basically see themselves as doing their jobs and thereby not deserving of personal attack, do tend to react badly to being berated or bitched at by people who have broken the law but don't feel they should be arrested. Who, in any job, wants to be called names? How does that not get personal? CJ's advice, which I agree with, is to be polite and respectful and that will minimize your trouble and maximize your changes of getting off. Argue and you're simply toast -- you're disagreeing with the cop's judgement and authority and you're simply going to go down.

I agree that we're in a more and more repressive society -- but I think we're better off looking at Ashcroft, at the local ordinances that impound cars (a fairly recent tactic) and put the faces of mongers into public scrutiny, etc., than we are saying it's this or that cop's fault. Individual cops don't set policy on whether or not your car's going to be seized. Amen, absolutely, on your comments on the so-called Patriot act and it's real attack on individual freedom, but that's the right battle ground, not some grunt cop who gets called on to enforce it.

GT, I don't see the contradiction, sorry. In the first instance, CJ stated his personal views on the law. In the second, he described what can happen if you're caught by LE. How is that a contradiction? I happen to agree with him -- the laws are bullshit, but if you're gonna taunt the cops, you're gonna end up paying the price. That's not a contradiction; that's sage advice.

Civ2000, again, I agree with you. Tape recorders are all about how you prove your case once you've been busted. That means you've already lost. Bottom line -- the best way to protect yourself from being busted is to have your paranoia radar on high, and to run for cover if you're at all nervous. I've never had an instance in picking up a SW where I was the first one mentioning sex, price, etc. And I always ask for a show before we get serious.

GettingTang
12-31-03, 01:50
Joe Zop Quote: "GT, I don't see the contradiction, sorry. In the first instance, CJ stated his personal views on the law. In the second, he described what can happen if you're caught by LE. How is that a contradiction? I happen to agree with him -- the laws are bullshit, but if you're gonna taunt the cops, you're gonna end up paying the price. That's not a contradiction; that's sage advice." END QUOTE

Um with ALL due respect, maybe you need to reread what he wrote. In the second portion of his quotes, he is not indicating "what can happen if caught". no-way! No-how! He is yelling about us dirty rotten mongers getting what we deserve! Any other interpretation of these quotes, would simply be a misinterpretation, or attempt at changing the meaning behind them. I think everyone here can read for themselves and judge this one quite easily. Remember, you ought to know, when someone gets heated, as he obviously was, often the real turth is exposed. I think this was a classic case of such an event. He was very pissed when he wrote that!

Bottom line, the guy has an agenda, true, I'm not sure what it is, but it's not much about true mongering in the sense we all know it as.

Civ2000
12-31-03, 02:17
JZ and others, I don't have a problem at all with LE or ex-LE or even a judge picking up SW's. I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. This isn't the basis for my complaint against CJ at all. My point is that he is not the friend of LE he says he is. I doubt the San Diego Police Department would hire him as their public relations guy. It's okay to feel anyway you want to about the police. The majority of Americans respect the police. It's just that if you're going on-line being a cheerleader if you will; acting like you're being paid by the police to defend them; and then breaking laws and encouraging prostitution your actions certainly aren't matching your words. If CJ were to ask the cops how he could show them respect I'll bet they would tell him to start by obeying the law.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe CJ reveles in disharmony and disagreement. He's had similiar arguments on numerous threads of this board. Knowing that a majority of mongers dislike the police he makes it a point to state his opinion; usually devoid of any useful mongering infomation. I've never heard him admit he was wrong, even when all evidence points against him. He will submit rebuttal after rebuttal even when he knows he's wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if he made up being ex-LE just to instigate more disharmony. He thrives off this sort of thing.

I would welcome a real cop to this board anytime. A guy who could give us current and useful information that could benefit our picking up SW's and give us legimate and up-to-date infomation about avoiding arrest. I respect a cop who would pick up a SW because he would be risking more than the most of us., i.e the embarrassment of being discovered and the subsequent loss of employment. But unfortunately CJ's advice is to be ignored, which is all our loss because his information (if he is really ex-LE) could really be a bonus to this board.

GettingTang
12-31-03, 02:54
Civ2000 Very well said. I agree, I too would like to see a real LE officer post to this forum.

I think the level of embarrassment is in the eye of the beholder. I would not even ridicule, or laugh if a cop were busted for solicitation. Not at all. I would simply say to myself, this is just another guy with a set of balls like the rest of us trying to get off, period! Nothing more, nothing less. Does somehow the fact he wears a badge 8-10 hours per day make him less of a male then the rest of us? I think not.

The most likely scenario to take place if a cop were busted in a sting, he would likely be let go by the other cops! Look at traffic citations, they do not get them. If a cop is pulled over by another cop, they never ticket them. This is a well known fact. Something I'm sure JZ and CJ can both confirm! In most cases that benefit even extends to their immediate family

So my point here is that cops are guys just like the rest of us. I'm totally willing to wager money, that cops engage in P4P at the same ratio as the rest of society!

Maybe we should all form a little petition here to get prostitution regulated, but legal across the USA. Right here in this forum. More then half the people across this great land, think it should be legal anyhow! I'm not for allowing the trade to go unchecked or unregulated, but allowing designated areas, or providers who work indoors. call girls, escorts, massage parlors, should all be able to be legally licensed and perform their business.

This BS about John TV, taking people's cars, notifying their wives, getting them fired from their jobs, is NUTS!

And in closing here, I don't know how most of you mongers view prostitution. To me it's a simple act of sex. It's like going out for a hamburger anymore. Not a big deal! We men and the girls who service us, like what we do. We mean no one harm by it. It's nothing more then a tag football game to most of us.

I had a girl (P4P) just the other night get pissed at me for cuming too fast. I told her I thought she wanted me to hurry and finish, she seriously got pissed and almost slapped me and said, she wanted to cum too and was getting close! Many of these girls really do enjoy what they do. Some will view it as.............." If I'm going to have sex and get paid for, I might as well enjoy myself too" I have said before, about half the girls I have been with over the years, fall in this category. They have learned to enjoy the open, frequent sexual encounters! But hey then again, it could just be me they are into :)

GETTINGTANG!

Explorer8939
12-31-03, 03:03
GettingTang, I don't know about your IQ, but you do seem to have a lot of time on your hands.

We are here to discuss mongering, not the personality of retired cop who has turned to mongering in TJ. I wish that you would devote as much effort to uncovering and reporting on the best chicas in TJ as you do discussing your fascination with Country John.

Some of the stuff posted here is either unsubstantiated ("CJ is posting under multiple aliases and I can prove it"), or just wacky ("CJ wants to create a database of mongers"). Even if you are right about CJ's motives, by making wild unsubstantiated statements you simply look like a rebuffed admirer of the guy.

Joe Zop
12-31-03, 09:57
With all due respect, GT, I believe what CJ wrote was not directed at "mongers" but at you and a couple of others, and was a reaction to your jibes. And I'm sorry, but he's only being accurate -- if you think police are going to treat two people with the same care and respect when one of them is polite and respectful and the other calls them every kind of hypocrite and bastard, then you're living in a dream world. If they catch someone who they know has been taunting them, yes, they're gonna make sure that guy's face gets a close-up grind into a video camera. That's just human nature, a little bit of instant revenge, and to make it something other than that is ridiculous.

I happen to think that particular post of CJ's was unfortunate, and probably written in anger, but it's also something that was provoked.

You're right, GT -- police usually won't ticket each other, though that depends on the situation. (For example, a clearly at-fault accident or high-profile situation will probably still lead to a ticket, as will repeat offenses.) They'll often let each other walk from misdemeanor-type situations, get each other rides home if they are driving after drinking, etc. Technically that shouldn't happen, of course, but in a lot of ways that's no different that the kind of professional courtesy you see in other jobs -- giving things to colleagues at cost, etc.

Civ2000, to be clear -- I said that GettingTang is a guy who tends to get into personal arguments on this board, not Country John (though that may be his m.o. as well; I've not been party to any other than this one and reading its genesis, so I don't know.) GT knows I've got no personal issues with him per se, as though we've disagreed on things in places I usually try to stay civil, but bombast does tend to be part of his weaponry, and he's gotten into minor firefights with some of the more veteran posters in the LOS area (rather silly ones, imho.)

GT, your petition idea isn't a bad one, though politically I think it's got a snowball's chance at this time in the US, particularly if it comes from a board like this as opposed to a more neutral one such as a social service group. Might be good to put a model together, get a bunch of signatures, but it would have no real force. I think the real battleground is local -- going after measures such as the ones you mention, trying to convince a local governing council to adopt, say, Canada's model, etc. If economic benefits could be established (sin tax) then we might see the same ripple effect we've seen with casinos. The downside, of course, is that it would require mongers to stand up in public in favor of such moves -- something far more risky than meeting someone else is a bar in another country.

Country John
12-31-03, 13:31
GT still hasn't posted his proof of my so-called "other identies" so he is now trying to divert everyone's attention.

I guess it's OK for him to accuse another and then not be held accountable. Where is the proof GT? How come you have not posted it? What is the excuse of the day?

He reminds me of various times at social gatherings when others learned of my job. In many cases the conversation quickly turned to that "ticket I didn't deserve."

If you are driving your $80,000 vehicle around mongering and you get grabbed, you SHOULD do everything you can to protect your case and your position. I'm not saying it's going to work but one thing I've learned in James Bond training was to KEEP THE ODDS IN MY FAVOR. Of course the advice I posted should be ignored if you feel that it's bogus or silly - to each his own. If you can afford that 80K vehicle, you can afford an attorney and he's going to need all the help he can get. Do you have a disagreement with that?

JZ is right. I was quite pissed when I wrote the post and he is also right that perhaps it was unfortunate that it made the board at all. He is also right that if you have a bad attitude you will be processed accordingly and that holds true anywhere, especially Mexico.

It would be obvious to a blind man that the general consensus among forum members is that the hate flow towards LE is proper and just. LE would be somewhat influenced by that IMHO and they would exact some instant revenge when the cameras are rolling -wouldn't you?

I ticketed a cop once, my TO was in the car, and the violation was very obvious and dangerous. I would have ticketed him anyway. Most of the time however, tickets (it's traffic man) were not handed out to LE. Call it one of the "perks" of the profession. Most of the time the vioations were very minor. Just because the person is LE doesn't mean they have the right to endanger the lives of others, it runs contrary to purpose. I don't care who they are, a mistake is one thing but flagrant disregard for safety despite world class training is quite another.

I could share lots of stories but why bother? Who's interested? What's the point? It would only waste space.

GT has a track record of challenging others and now he can add to that his lies. That should speak volumes to anyone who may have thought he was being straight or "calling it as he sees it." He can't be trusted.

Where is the outrage? Why are other members not demanding he put up or own up? Is this OK with you? Do you even care? Are we not to take this seriously?

If GT doesn't like me (and I can't imagine why that would be, I am a nice guy) then he can call me all the names in the book, I can understand that but to attack throught lies is quite another story.

Then he refers to us mongerers as "dirty rotten" people. Are you a "dirty rotten" person?

Not all mongerers are "dirty rotten" as some would have you believe. Some most certainly are, like the ones who lie but I am confident that for the most part, mongerers with the sophistication to get on this forum, organize and practice the hobby with some honor are anything but "rotten." "Dirty Rotten" people get what they deserve in any arena.

Perhaps members can relay any experiences hooking up with "dirty rotten" members from this forum. That would be an interesting post.

GT may have self esteem issues which would not be at all surprising given the fact that integrity also appears to be an major issue. Best thing to do when you're caught in a lie is to admit it and restore some integrity. Until that happens, even though he might have something meaningful to say, you will always have to consider the integrity of the author and you will NEVER be able to trust him fully.

If an active LEO were to post in this forum, it would be simply an opportunity for people to again engage in the kind of behavior that made some members of this forum famous. I doubt that any serious dialogue would take place. It would be one massive flaming session after another - a complete and utter waste of time.

People like GT are not capable of assuming or considering another viewpoint. That's why we might see him on an up-coming episode of COPS.

I am encouraged to see that now there are admissions to the effect that maybe the police are not all bad. Well, of course.

I'm not an applicant for a PR position with any department. Those days are long gone. I am a dedicated and conscientious mongerer who has respect for the poice, respect for the girls and respect for members (who are not liars). I respect the police because I know what they face everyday and contrary to popular belief they DO more than chase mongerers. May God watch over them and protect them all. I respect the girls because they are people too, I respect members who treat not only the girls with dignity and respect but other members as well.

Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to injure through lies. Simple to distort the constitution when it doesn't mean anything to you anyway.

Again, if there is a specific issue that I can address in a previous post, let me know, so far you are shooting blanks.

Country John

Ken Kelova
12-31-03, 15:54
Hey Fellas,

Boy this has been one hell of an argument we have wintessed. I think the bottom line is that we all have something in common, which is probably what attracted us to this forum. I personally don't find anything wrong with mongering unless the girl is doing it against her will, which I have yet to encounter. I personally don't like doing it in the US coz of risk factor, high prices, high number of hardcore/take all your money women etc. Unfortunately it is illegal in most places over here but I wouldn't worry about supposed LE in here trying to bust anybody, unless of course you are giving the details of everything you do.

I'm not exactly sure what you guys hope to accomplish by proving that the other is a liar but CJ made some good points which I will take into account and move on, and will also take some of the good points that GT posted and move on. The rest I'll just discard coz they are of no use to me.

I'd hope that if you guys cannot try to make mongering a more enjoyable and safe experience for one another, then at least keep your debates a bit civilized and save your energy for a lovely lady.

PS I would suggest some of you guys give Africa a try, coz there are some lovely, accomodating and very very friendly ladies out there who looooooove foreign men. Did I mention that the prices are super cheap? $200 over there could last from 3 days to a week easy!! HIV is everywhere in the world so no need to stress that you protect yourselves properly.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Pokey
12-31-03, 18:04
Joe,
Thanks for defending this Ex L.E. guy. I started feeling a little sorry for him. He had three flames in a roll with no backup, no one else came to his rescue, except you a "Zen like PussyGod" 1300 posts, you make C.G. look like a comic book writer. Im sure with your travels you found the perfect "pussy".
You notice C.G didn't write for awhile, Im sure he shorted out his key board with tears, he got it that wet.

Anyway, I for one am going to quit posting about him in the new year. The only reason I started was for 3 reasons.
One, I wanted him to admit he was a cop. I just could not stand his postings in the California Pomona section, " LE is crusing, and what a fine job they are doing, driving Crown Vic, mongers should get busted etc."
Two, I wanted other readers of this Forum to know he was putting out misleading information that could get you in big trouble. For example,the one Civ2000 talks about asking a undercover women if she is a cop, she has to tell the truth.
The other one for me was the one on the "TJ cops, hard working guy, don't insult them by bribing them". If TJ if you get pulled over for running the red light, the cops tell you right there. "Do you want to settle it right here", give him $40 and you are on your way. If your drunk it will cost more. If you follow C.J. advise, you will end up in a TJ jail.
Three, I wanted him to prove he turned to the darkside, and tell us on ways to excape from being arrested in the US. CJ has refused, but at the same time puts out misleading information.
(not the one of being rude to the cop, I agree with you and CG, the cop will put your face in the street, and he should.)

I feel I have done my duty to this forum, and will continue looking for good pussy. I believe some guys look for the perfect wave. I look for the perfect pussy.
Maybe, I'll try Thailand. I want to go to that Eden Club, with yellow and green lines and pick out a girl.

CJ, I really think your a nice guy. Im still not convinced if your are or were every a cop, or what your motives are, but maybe I'll see you in TJ, one look and I'll be able to tell.

GettingTang
12-31-03, 18:05
CJ, are you for real?

Another prime example of taking what another says, way out of context and designing it to fit his own agenda.

Bottom line CJ, nobody here is going to meet-up with you in TJ. I have received a huge list of PMs from people indicating they smell a rat. I know you'll call this a lie too, but hey that's okay. I have 22 Personal messages in all, most indicating something along the lines from, not being able to stand you, to they would never trust you.

Also, I have said it four times now. My conclusion in determining you post under multiple aliases to the forum is irrelevant. As stated four times, it was for my own purpose to satisfy my own curiosities. A point you seem to continue to fail to recognize! The software I used matched several of your posts as a 99% likelyhood to be written by the same person. These were lengthy posts you wrote in the past. But hey 99% leaves a chance for error, not doesn't it?

This has been the ONLY basis for your entire argument with me. And it's a weak one at that!

You need to learn how to read, I never called mongers dirty rotten people, quite the contrary. I was addressing your post, when you were angry, remember. I sort of took the liberty of filling in the blanks, when you said mongers get what they deserve for breaking the law! What an idiot and a LIAR, for trying to pin that one on me. I have written countless times about the pity I feel for a fellow monger who gets busted. You on the other hand write about how they should be embarrassed and get what they deserve!

Bottom line, nobody but a fool will ever meet with you. Myself on the other hand have met and traded info with 9 other fellow mongers. I have earned my trust, you through your frivolous ramblings have not! You never will either! Only a sucker and a fool would ever meet up in TJ with you

Joe Zop
12-31-03, 19:56
Geez, GT, if it's "for my own purpose to satisfy my own curiosities" then why do you keep posting it here as if it's some kind of incontrovertible fact? That's utterly disingenuous bullshit -- either prove it or shut up about it already! (And it's pretty clear by now you've no intention of proving it.) Saying, "I'm not saying publicly he's a card-carrying commie, but I've satisfied myself through my private investigation that he is absolutely the spawn of Marx" is as basic and longstanding a smear tactic as there is.

Pokey, I read all of CJ's postings in the Pomona section and also did a forum search for all the times he used the word "busted" and I do not find anywhere his saying "mongers should get busted." He did say, "It's the inexperienced or stupid mongerer that gets busted" but that's hardly the same thing.

What I do find is that you posted a news article containing the name of mongers who got busted, which Jackson thankfully edited. What the heck were you thinking with that? Isn't the fear of naming names to LE part of what people are pinning on CJ?

Respectfully, your New Year's resolution seems like a good one, given that over 20% of your posts concern CJ, including the one where you asked him to not "keep tactics secret on how to avoid L.E. by just P.M some members," the posting of which is one of the things that people have taken him to task over.

As far as defending CJ (though I feel he does a fine enough job on his own) I'm simply not a fan of having people being driven from forums because they're getting attacked. That bodes badly for the community as a whole -- it's simple enough to just ignore someone. I defend people I battle with as well (you could look into my long-running disagreements with/and defense of Samus Aran in the Thailand section) as I believe a healthy online community is one that has multiple perspectives and points of view. That means I, as a reader, can pick, choose, and judge things by contrasting the various personalities and perspectives. I'm against "the party line" of information because it tends to only look at things using certain perspectives. I'm happy to have GettingTang report on his higher-end activities in Thailand as well as having Freeler report on his as-cheap-as-can-be-managed ones, I'm amused when they clash and disagree, and I sincerely wish them both the best and pray they both continue to post. Same same here.

Sorry if that's too "Zen-like" for your tastes -- as Popeye said, I am what I am, (must be all my time in the far east, LOL) and yes, I'm an active poster, but if you check my posts you'll find I do contribute specific information and concrete (albeit long-winded) field reports.

And no, I've never found the perfect pussy, which is why I keep checking out new ones... :D

Ah, well, enough -- time to go celebrate! Happy New Year and lots of orgasms to all!!

Miller2k
01-02-04, 02:58
As someone who has been involved in a few board fights and has been wrongly accused of mis-doings, I can see that this CJ/GT fight is pointless. Just agree to disagree and move on

The bottom line for me has always come down to a short saying:
LTE : DTA (Listen To Everybody : Don't trust Anybody)

I've met with board members before and I've had a great time, but I take into account that I REALLY don't know these people at first and I comport myself accordingly. Any monger who puts his faith in the hands of someone he meets on-line is a fool. If CJ is running some sort of scam then anyone with common sense would not let himself fall for it. (i.e. Don't leave him alone with your car, don't go to unknown places with him, etc.). On the other hand, CJ might just be a regular guy who likes to "hunt" in packs. The fact is that we don't really know, but we should always err on the side of safety.

So, whether or not CJ is on the level shouldn't make a diference because I think we are all smart enough to avoid being taken. The point of mongering is to get laid...everything else is not worth fighting about. Personal attacks make you very defensive and ready to fight (I should know), but doing so accomplishes nothing other than taking up space that would otherwise be dedicated to our #1 purpose: getting laid.

Have a happy, safe , and fun 2004!

Country John
01-02-04, 15:03
GT, nice try. You still have not actually posted the other names I'm supposed to be using and looks like that 1% error margin is a safe enough starting point for your backtrack but wasn't good enough to make you re-evaluate your lies before posting them in the first place was it?

So post the information GT. Let's find out once and for all who is telling the truth, we don't have to meet, we don't have to do anything other than prove or disprove your lies and then move on.

Members have a right to know who they are dealing with especially if you represent (as you have) that you are a person of integrity. You are avoiding the issue and depending on other members to urge everyone to "move on" in order to get your lying ass off the hook.

IN addition, let's hear from the people who PM'd you - sort of like a roll call thing. Don't worry, I have my keyboard convered with a piece of plastic so I won't short it out with my tears!!

Everyone who Pm's this guy, just post a note saying you PM'd him as he indicated. I'm so sure he is lying about that too, so how about it? Just post a short note to the effect that he is right and you did PM him. Nothing personal, "just the facts." GT could use a bit of support right now, so let's have it.

Just because LE doesn't tail you into Mexico is no reason to let your guard down. You need to be alert and you need to have those eyes in the back of your head clear and focused. Who's to say "Nightline" isn't down there or Channel 7 or someone like that with a briefcase camera. It's happened before. You don't want to see your face on TV.

LE doesn't give a shit what you do mongering wise (within limits previously discussed) when you leave the country.

State side you have to have your interlocks in place. So anyone thinking of going South of the border, let me clarify a few specifics that Poki stayed up all night looking for:

"TJ cops, hard working guy, don't insult them by bribing them".

Well, an ounce of common sense tells us that you WAIT FOR THEM TO OFFER TO SETTLE THE MATTER ON THE SPOT. If you shove a $20.00 in their face and you get the wrong guy he then may become upset because you are insinuating he is a crook. Even though he might be, you have to let HIM run the show, not you.

They are hard working guys. You might never get the "wrong one" but it's not worth the risk. Wait for them to offer to settle on the spot - that's the safest way to go. I guess if you can't read what's written on the line you can't see what's between the lines either.

Let's see, what's next:

" LE is crusing, and what a fine job they are doing, driving Crown Vic, mongers should get busted etc."

That was posted in the Pomona section. LE was cruising and they blanketed the area with B/W's and I am sure they had slick tops out there too. There were so many on patrol I thought to myself, "...jeez, they are doing a great job patrolling the area - lots of coverage, looking at everything etc."

As for my vehicle, I am fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to buy a brand new P71 Crown Vic. Anyone who knows anything about the P71 will know that they are configured for severe duty (taxi cab, police car, fleet etc.) and this was was not configured for patrol. Extra heavy duty this and that, nice tight ride, etc etc. I love the car. The car has no police equipment installed of any kind but police cars look very much like my P71. Another neat thing about the P71 is that people don't ride my ass on the freeway because it has a little name plate on the back that says . . . . .and hold on to your seat and don't let yourself get upset, Poki........."Police Interceptor." Needless to say I don't see much SW action with this car so I take the wife's.

Mongerers who are not careful, are stupid or mistreat the girls should (IMHO) be busted. They could get YOU busted, or maced.

By the way GT, just took a call from one of the "fools" (I hope I read your post right this time) you were referring to -RODDD- who is out of State on vacation. He's been off the board because he doesn't want WSG to appear in the history of his sisters computer.

He wished all a happy new year and is looking forward to joining Operation AlleyKat II in late January/early February. We had a great time together in December. I'll be in TJ on Thursday afternoon for some mongering at AB and in the Alley.

Since Poki has over 20% "Country John" content in his posts, I do hereby appoint him as President of the Country John Fan Club with all the rights, benefits and privileges appertaining thereto. Can I get a Second on that Joe Zop?

GT, I must have close to 50% GT content by now so I am appointing myself president of your fan club. The only thing that will get me out of your rear view mirror is Jackson cancelling my membership. So there's an angle for you.

Hope you all had a safe holiday and now it's back to work for another year.

Hopefully in the new year will see GT coming clean, his list of buddies posting that they did in fact PM him like he said so we can prove he is a liar, and get this whole thing out in the open and behind us.

In the meantime, I look forward to getting in the middle of something great in Mexico this year.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Joe Zop
01-02-04, 20:20
CJ, I think you ought to give it up -- there's no way that GT's ever going to apologize for a single thing, any more than you're going to admit he's right about anything. Pokey's concept (and you're a big one for clubs and naming things, aren't you CJ? I'm from the Groucho school myself) of starting the new year by putting all this out of his head is the right one; it's time to move on, and actually get back to creating worthwhile content. Forget being in GT's rearview; surely there are better ways to spend time and energy.

To that end I'd like to chime in on the whole issue of dealing with cops and greasing things along. I agree with both parties here, actually, that there are tons of cops, particularly in the third world, who expect to be paid off, and also with some of CJ's comments on method.

In many places I've been the cops don't get paid enough to really support their families (in Kenya while I was there a bunch of newspaper articles were talking about this in terms of a necessary step for reform, to lower corruption) so collecting cash for looking the other way becomes an inherent part of the process. But even in places like Mexico, Thailand, etc. where such payoffs are routine, you sure as heck don't simply bring out wads of cash and push it at someone, as that basically says you look at them without respect and as someone who can be casually bribed for just about anything, (which may be true, but still...) as opposed to them defining themselves as deciding to look the other way and you providing a thank you for that. This sounds ridiculous, but still matters -- it's the old "donation to the police benefit association" dance -- deniability is important.

There are lots of ways of instigating such a process -- in addition to waiting until it's suggested, you can politely ask whether there's anything you can do to help solve the problem or make it go away, for example, which usually leads to some kind of number or the idea of a number being tossed out. It's worth noting that once either they or you have put a number out, that's something that can be negotiated in most cases, though you want to be very careful about "winning" such a negotiation as opposed to simply getting things in a more reasonable range.

But directly challenging a cop's authority or integrity -- anywhere or any time -- is a dumb thing to do. They can either back down, which isn't at all likely, or go at you hammer and tong, and the latter is not a recipe for good mongering. Be repentant and kiss ass, if necessary, as the entire idea is to quickly get as far away from the situation as possible.

Country John
01-03-04, 15:52
Joe Zop:

Thanks for your input and I certainly do agree that GT isn't about to admit anything. Also agree that there are lots of other productive ways to spend my time. I have a busy year business wise ahead and need to focus on that instead. I'm not sure what you mean by the naming names comment though so if you would elaborate on that I'd appreciate it. I hope you're not shooting at my bad memory.

Closing the chapter on GT is a good new years resolution along with quitiing smoking as of January 1. By now everyone knows that smoking is bad for your health so I've decicded to give it up.

Blowing smoke is another bad habit that some people should consider giving up.

By now everyone should know about GT so I agree, let's just "call it as we see it" and move on.

Your guide to bribes is an excellent summation of a lot of posts including mine. This has never actually happened to me but my perception of how to deal with it errs on the side of safety to the degree that I'll let the LEO run the show unless it turns dangerous.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Miller2k
01-04-04, 01:17
After about 4 years living in Mexico I have yet to be shaken down or bothered by the policia. I think that's due to a combination of street smarts and dumb luck. Friends of mine haven't been so lucky. They've given me this advice in dealing with Mexican LE that always works for them:

1) Be polite, quiet and passive. The Mexican LE is under-paid and they like to feel important almost as much as they like getting bribes.

2) Never act like "a tough guy". Never resist or get an attitude with them. An "I know my rights," attitude will just bring you problems. You are in Mexico and you are guilty until proven innocent. (I could tell you all horror stories about "problematic" people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have found themselves charged with whatever unsolved crimes that can be pinned on them.)

3) Never directly offer a bribe (or mordida). This will turn a cop on the take into an honorable police officer. As Joe said, offer it to them without actually offering it to them. For example: "Gee, I don't really have time to go to the station, is there any way I can pay the fine right here?"

Mexico is not the place to demand your rights unless you want a shit-load of problems. Be respectful and smart and you will stay out of problems. Really, it's a pretty shitty way to run a country, but its definitely possible to manipulate the system to get off the hook for the occasional violation. However, just as in the USA the best way to deal with LE is to NOT have to deal with them. Try to stay on the level and within the laws of the land whenever possible.

phil
01-04-04, 03:22
Number 1: The thing that I've always felt was weird was cops A) arresting hookers and B) the men looking for them but letting C) the drug dealers just do their thing. I've seen it myself and it's just a little weird to me. I mean if I'm getting arrested for trying to get some pussy then how the fuck are you going to let the next man get away with trying to get some drugs. It's easier for me to get some crack (cocaine that is) than to get some crack (ass, pussy, head etc.). Uhhh, I see a contradiction!!

Number 2: I mean the one thing that I do see is that American society as a whole basically wants everybody to get married and start a family. That's the goal. To men that want to enjoy casual sex well you're just shit out of luck. It's a blantant form of sexual control by a feminist oriented society that everybody is in on: 1) Make prostitution illegal 2) Arrest men who seek prostitutes 3) Arrest prostitutes 4) Prosecute men severely with divorce when they do marry a woman.

Well I think I can escape scenario Number 1 because I might seem like a punk but I'm going to give up SW because it's just not worth it. I've read earlier posts about how it is a crime so if you commit it you deserve to get arrested for it. I think the problem with that is that the punishment for the crime is tipped way in the favor of the law and the money part is tipped heavily in the favor of the SW. I mean losing your car over roughly 15-20 minutes of sex is just plain crazy. And it's rushed sex. I mean in the American Woman section I regularly diss American Women but it's American Men who are the true psychos. The American Woman is a product created and patented by the American Man.

phil
01-04-04, 03:27
I also wanted to add another reason they cannot legalize prostitution is because they know that the restaurant industry would collapse.

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:38
Although your analogy is a bit rough around the edges, I tend to agree with your assessment. In the USA women have most of us men pussy whipped. It is almost a crime to be a "male" in this country.

If we ever get a group together, with a lot of money, and willing to be a bit embarrassed we could most likely, easily put an end to prostitution being illegal. The constitution on its most principal values, would never uphold making sex between two consenting adults in any form illegal. Consenting is the key word. If we are to follow the logic the the law uses regarding prostitution, then we should prosecute any aspect where any monetary value is traded for sex.

GETTINGTANG~!

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:39
Now here is a novel idea for you. Next time you P4P, tell the women you are going to give her something (whatever it might be does not matter) brand new you just purchased worth the value of what she charges. Tell her she can have the receipt for that item where it was recently purchased with cash. Tell her at the end of the date, she is welcome to return it to the purchase store for a cash refund, or keep the gift. Is this prostitution? LE would say yes, if it is, then maybe I should call local LE a report all the women living with men where the women does not work and fully support herself. I could use all the things this woman gets from her male counter part as a monetary gain.

If you really, really break down the hundreds of scenarios where prostitution might be taking place, this would place soooooooooo many gray areas on this bogus law. It would never hold up if courts actually allowed the millions of comparisons to be shown in a court of law.

Bottom line, LE has no business in peoples sex life's. As long as both parties are consenting, no minors are involved, no other forms of illegal activities are taking place, etc, etc. The sniffing nose should stop there!

GETTINGTANG~!

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:41
I once dated a girl for 9 months. She was a wild girl 23 yo, she was hot! On our fourth date at dinner after a few drinks, she mentioned she needed a sex partner. She was attending university and was not ready for a long term relationship. This was during spring break and I was about to embark on a business trip. I had an extra plane ticket. She offered me "the best blowjob any girl on the universe has ever given," for the free ticket. Wow! The relationship lasted for 9 months, totally about sex. The understanding without saying was, I treated her to nice things and she treated me to continuos sexual episodes! It was great! Best sex of my life! I never once thought of it as prostitution, neither did she! But in fact it was! I ask you, is she any different then about half the women in the world? NOT!

GETTINGTANG~!

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:43
I was once engaged to a girl who would tell me I could have a blowjob, for this, or for that! We had great sex, but she was not really into oral sex. So whenever I craved it, I usually had to give something up for it. Sort of a trade off. She was my soon to be wife, but was she also a prostitute? If I called LE and explained this to them, technically they probably could have charged us both with solicitation. This is not the real world! If the courts would actually allow a good attorney to argue these points, every case should be and rightfully so, tossed out! AND NOW IN MOST STATES, THEY WILL TAKE YOUR DAMN CAR FOR THIS! NUTS!


GETTINGTANG~!

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:53
SAN DIEGO -- Eighteen men were arrested in San Diego for soliciting sex acts from undercover police officers posing as prostitutes, police said Tuesday.

The sting took place Monday as part of an effort by the San Diego Police Department to reduce the impact of street prostitution in the city, police Chief William Lansdowne said in a statement.

Seventeen vehicles were seized during the operation. The suspects were booked into San Diego County Jail.

The vice unit plans to conduct similar sweeps throughout the city in the future, Lansdowne said.

These autos will be sold at auction and all proceeds go to San Diego county law enforcement.

GettingTang
01-04-04, 05:57
Please read the article below. It really shows how hypicritical this is. It also shows why it should not be illegal and how hard it should be to prove. I just don't get it.............

This one really gets under my skin. Here we have a high profile hooker get busted. Lots of LE and other big wigs on her list. They conceal and cover it all up, not releasing the names of her clients.

Now, if this were you or I, we would be plastered all over the 6PM news, have our cars taken and lives detroyed!



Woman Convicted Of Prostitution, Clients Kept Secret
Prostitute Avoids Jail; 4 Clients Convicted, 2 Make Plea

UPDATED: 10:23 a.m. EST November 1, 2002

RICHMOND HEIGHTS, Ohio -- It's called the world's oldest profession, but in Cleveland it has a new twist.



Investigative Report



A mother in a quiet suburb was busted for prostitution. Chief Investigator Duane Pohlman said that some of her clients were wealthy and powerful.


Pohlman said that many people just wanted the case to go away.

Duane Pohlman -- A quiet street in Richmond Heights: an unlikely setting for prostitution.

This woman? An unlikely prostitute.

For months, Toby Goodrick, the daughter of a well-known and wealthy family, provided massages and sex to men at her home.

Goodrick pleaded guilty to prostitution in July. She avoided jail. The details of her prostitution were, for the most part, kept secret.

Marie Fink, neighbor -- "I do love the neighborhood."

Duane Pohlman -- Marie Fink has lived on the street for more than four decades. She had no idea there was prostitution happening here.

Marie Fink -- "I'm very sorry to hear that something like that goes on in our neighborhood. That's really sad."

Duane Pohlman -- If you haven't heard about this case, there's a reason. A lot of people didn't want you to hear about it. From lawyers to clients, and most surprisingly the judicial system itself -- which seemed more bent on destroying records and maintaining secrecy than with its duty to disclose.

Last year, Goodrick set up a massage business at her home, placing an ad in the The Scene, even ordering vanity plates advertising her new profession.

Soon, she began getting clients -- some paying as much as $350 a session.

In January, her then-boyfriend became suspicious and went to the police.

Former Boyfriend -- "It feels like a movie. It's totally crazy."

Duane Pohlman -- That now ex-boyfriend agreed to talk to us as long as we hid his identity.

"Why would she do this?"

Former Boyfriend -- "That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that." Duane Pohlman -- Police were suspicious of the ex-boyfriend. He has a criminal record, convicted of forgery and burglary.

But detectives did begin surveillance. They took pictures as they watched cars and men arriving at Goodrick's home.

Detective Brian Rinas -- "When we surveilled the residence for approximately three months, we noticed quite a bit of activity there."

Duane Pohlman -- The ex-boyfriend's story began to add up.

Richmond Heights -- a normally quiet suburb -- was dealing with a first.

"Can you recall any other prostitution case in Richmond Heights?"

Detective Rinas -- "No. I don't recall ever hearing of one."

Duane Pohlman -- In March, police had enough evidence to charge Goodrick with prostitution. Six of her clients were charged with prostitution, too. Four were found guilty. They are:
Victor Baran, of Seven Hills
Jack Hixenbaugh Jr., of Mentor-on-the-Lake
Alfredo Salvatore, of Richmond Heights
Thomas Norman, of Painesville

But the other two arranged plea agreements. Who are they?

Fred Barck is an auctioneer.

Barck is also an elected trustee in Brownhelm Township. He'd normally be sitting in a chair. But when we showed up, he got in his car and drove away.

Barck is also a retired Vermilion police officer. His badge was found by detectives in Goodrick's home.

Barck got his prostitution charge reduced to disorderly conduct.

"I'm looking into the case of Toby Goodrick."

Fred Barck -- "Oh, yeah..."

Duane Pohlman -- I asked him some tough questions after one of his auctions.


"Were you involved in paying for sex with her?"

Fred Barck -- "No."

Duane Pohlman -- "Why did she have your badge?"

Fred Barck -- "I don't know."

Duane Pohlman -- "You gave her your badge?"

Fred Barck -- "Why don't you guys get lost. OK?"

Duane Pohlman -- Barck later admitted he had sex with Goodrick, but he claims it was an affair, not prostitution.

Jim Rosenberger is the owner of the prestigious Chagrin Valley Athletic Club, where many well-to-do patrons are pampered in a posh setting of swimming pools and tennis courts.

His charge, too, was reduced from prostitution to disorderly conduct.

"Are you going to make any comment to us?"

After I began asking questions, Rosenberger filed a motion asking the judge to set aside his conviction, arguing he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct to avoid negative publicity.

His lawyer wrote to me stating "Mr. Rosenberger has denied the allegation (of prostitution) from its inception (and) continues to do so..."

Goodrick got probation and was allowed to continue her home-based massages.

We sent our photographer undercover to get a massage from Goodrick. During it, she talks about her sentence for being a prostitute.

Toby Goodrick -- "They went real easy on me, only a year's probation."

Duane Pohlman -- And listen to what she says about how many clients she had.

Toby Goodrick -- "I had a Rolodex full of really awesome clients, people that were coming in at least once a week, once every two weeks, once a month."

Duane Pohlman -- The Rolodex was taken by detectives as they searched Goodrick's home.

I asked to see the Rolodex and all the evidence after Goodrick was sentenced, but over and over, I was told, "No."

Why?

As part of a plea agreement, the court ordered the Rolodex and other evidence to be destroyed. Police say they agreed to destroy the records to prevent Goodrick from going to back to her clients, but her ex-boyfriend claims the Rolodex contained the names of some very prominent clients. And that opening it up, would reveal who got away without being charged.

"Do you believe preferential treatment was given here?"

Former Boyfriend -- "Absolutely."

Detective Rinas -- "No, there was none."

Duane Pohlman -- According to police, the Rolodex did not contain real names, but code names, codes that were impossible to crack.

"Our source says there were many, there were many others participating. Is that a fair characterization?"

Detective Rinas -- "Yes, that is correct."

Duane Pohlman -- But we'll never know who else, thanks to that order to destroy the Rolodex.

"All I want to know is why you would turn to prostitution?"

There is another twist to the story.

Goodrick promised me she would talk on camera. At the same time, she was demanding money from one former client for her silence.

Her price? $25,000.

According to the paperwork, Goodrick said, "this money would keep his name out of the Channel5 investigation."

Goodrick was booked. This time, she pleaded guilty to extortion.

"Have we heard the last of this case?"

Detective Rinas -- "I don't think so..."

Duane Pohlman -- Goodrick will be sentenced for extortion in December.

Joe Zop
01-04-04, 11:33
I really don't think there's anyone here who thinks that prostitution should be illegal.

Civ2000
01-04-04, 22:19
Jz, I do think certain forms of prostitution should be illegal. If I had kids I don't think for example that SW's, their pimps, and their customers should be able to set up shop in my neighborhood. IMHO you don't see a lot of victimless street prostitution. The SW's are there with their pimps, drug dealing is rampant, condoms and needles are carelessly discarded, schoolgirls and women with regular jobs are propositioned on their way to work and school. Vancouver B. C. where its not legal but more tolerated has the highest HIV/Sylphlis rate in N. America. I've seen areas where prostitution was allowed to flourish. Most of us wouldn't spend our hard-earned money and buy a home there.

Now I do feel that escort services, massage parlors, brothels, strip clubs should be allowed to open persuant to zoning laws where they could be semi-regulated, taxed, and health checks performed on the girls. A SW caught working the streets could be cited for working without a valid permit or business license. Most of the industrial countries regardless of how liberal they are frown on street prostitution. If you did legalize some sort of street prostitution it could be regulated to a small part of a city (say the industrial area) where the impact to those not participating could be minimized. But thats never going to happen in the U. S. If anything I see prostitution laws becoming more and more strict and archaic in the coming years. I've never (in the last twenty years or so) seen a community thats cracked down on strip clubs, massage parlors, SW's, etc., decide that they over reacted and now it's time to be more lenient. If anything they crack down even harder.

Phil, I've noticed the same phenomena. Crack cocaine is easier to find in most cities than pussy. It boils down to SW's being easier and safer to bust than drug dealers. Most SW's don't carry firearms. Maybe LE believes that if you crack down on the SW's you will reduce demand and thereby reduce the drug dealing. In any event I can walk through the downtown core of my hometown and not see any SW's but get propositioned by drug dealers who stake out nearly every corner and loudly proclaim "wanna buy some crack"? They are seemingly invisible and are there day after day.

Joe Zop
01-05-04, 00:14
So what you're saying is not that prostitution in and of itself should be illegal, as it basically is in the US now, but that it should have some degree of regulation. Legalization with control is something that's worked in any number of places, and it still is different from saying you believe prostitution itself should be illegal -- as opposed to saying there are certain manifestations of it which are clearly disruptive.

To me, that's the same as saying that drinking alcohol should be legal, but that there are boundaries -- no driving with an alcohol level above a certain limit, no serving in public establishments outside of certain hours, limits on age, etc. Prohibition, with its attendant bootlegging, speakeasies, etc., on the other hand, is essentially the current situation for prostitution.

phil
01-05-04, 00:52
I have to guess one reason they let drug dealers just do their thing is because to the average citizen they think it's just some guy hanging out but with a woman that same citizen is thinking what in the hell is she doing out at this hour. She must be a hooker!!

Civ2000
01-05-04, 02:00
JZ, When you're right, you're right. I just think I hear a lot of guys on this board talking like street prostitution should be legal. All the talk about how unfair it is to get busted for a BJ and getting your car seized, etc, etc.

Myself, 99% of my mongering is with SW's whom I pick up in my car. I think street prostitution should be illegal but I just don't think the punishment fits the crime. Some examples:Monger #1 walks up to a sting operation and mistakenly propositions a police decoy: he gets fined $115.00, goes to John school, maybe a day in jail if it's his second offense. Sounds somewhat fair to me, though I think a fine would be more than enough. I do the same crime in my Range Rover and it gets seized. I get the same punishment except my fine is now $40,000. Is my crime really that much worse than the first guy that I should pay an additional forty thousand bucks? Of course not. Both parties should suffer the same monetary penalty.

The penalty for getting caught picking up a hooker in your car is effectively more punitive than getting busted for a lot of felonies. A shoplifter may get a hundred dollar fine while a guy getting laid gets his wifes car conviscated. Its not right, I'm sure its unconstitutional, its just no one has the means to challenge it yet.

Civ2K

Sainter
01-05-04, 03:15
Civ2000, I agree wholeheartedly with your views. However I do believe that we are in the minority.

GettingTang
01-05-04, 04:50
Scary post:

Either someone out there is playing a stupid prank on me, or we may have something legitimate to worry about. Or, perhaps it could be country John seeking revenge?

I just received a PM from a brand new member. This member does not show any prior posts under their name when I did a search. The name might be fake, because the sent this to me at my yahoo email and not through WSG PM system. I left this email address in a few posts months back.

Here is the copy of the PM i received.

Hi,
I am sending you this private message so you can post what has happened to me so others can be warned. Also I am hoping maybe with you in-depth knowledge of the law, you might be able to help me out. I cannot afford an attorney. I have been a regular poster to the Wsg forum for two years now. I post under the sate of California. Pomona, San Diego, and Los Angeles. I was just detained by local police where I reside. I was taken in for questioning solely based on my posting to the forum. This is because police have been investigating several massage parlors and other establishments that I have given detailed reports about. I was told several other members of the Wsg site had also been contacted by police. They, like myself, have been given an opportunity to tell our experiences regarding these establishments. I was given the opportunity to have an attorney present and possible charges might be pined on me, both given my incriminating posts, possible surveillance that matched my posting and statements given to police. They also asked me if I knew who you and four other regular posters are. They asked if I had met any other posters to the forum.

I have never done anything outside of what most other mongers do on this site. I refused to answer any other their questions and told them I needed to retain an attorney regarding this questioning. The police released me and told me I was likely facing numerous charges involving solicitation. They indicated my best chances were to cooperate fully with them and they might forget to charge me with anything. HELP! I have a wife and four children. I would loose my job and everything I own if I even get charged with solicitation. all this from simply posting. How did they get my home address? Does the WSG site turn over IP addresses to police if they ask? I won't post under my old name. I hope others with more resources have been busted too, so they can tell me what to do?
Any advice you can give me is appreciated.

Friend!


This is some scary shit! If any of you out there sent this to me, it had better be a damn joke!!! Come clean and all with be forgiven!

GETTINGTANG~!

PS, where the hell is our friend country John?

Sainter
01-05-04, 06:15
GT, I sincerely doubt if the message you received was genuine. More likely, it's probably someone with nothing better to do. If in the 1% chance that it is true, just deny, deny, deny. Also, the cops have to actually catch you in the act. Merely speaking about prostitution does not constitute criminal conduct. You could even say that it was your own stories that, you made up. Regardless mate, don't stress. You've got nothing to worry about. April fools day probably arrived ahead of schedule for you.

NY Monger
01-05-04, 09:35
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on wsg, but IMHO, it seems that LE would need someone to corroborate your story before they do anything. Simply saying "I know you've been naughty, so tell me and I'll go easy on you", is an old trick, used by authority figures as well as many parents on naughty children. Without some conclusive evidence that you've done something naughty, the police would be endlessly talking to people who could be confessing to things that they had no part in or never happened.

I would also suggest that LE, if they wanted to speak to you directly, would contact you directly - not through some anonymous manner.

Joe Zop
01-05-04, 11:10
Someone is deliberately yanking your chain, GT -- there are so many holes in this it's not funny. In order to "know" who posters on WSG are they'd have to have email addresses, IP info, etc. What are they going to do to get this -- threaten Jackson in Argentina? With what? Not to mention there's not a snowball's chance that any solicitation charge could stick, let alone that one would be filed.

Civ2000, I certainly don't disagree that having cars seized is way out of scale and ridiculous. To me it's just another example of why some sort of restructuring of the laws is needed so there is some balance in things. Canada, for example, makes SW illegal but prostitution itself is not -- that's a model that works for me.

Country John
01-05-04, 12:20
Hello all. I ran GT's post through my Green Hornet Decoder Ring and Guess what? He wrote both messages! That's right! He didn't receive an email from anyone. He's bullshitting you.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Dickhead
01-05-04, 16:12
GT's stories have more holes than Albert Hall. My own opinion is that cops suck and ex-cops suck just about as much. But, that's just my opinion.

Pokey
01-05-04, 16:37
I think there a lot of people here that think prostitution should be illegal. I for one don't want it in my nice suburban neighborhood or near schools. I enjoy taking a 15 to 30 drive to the seedy parts of some cities to find pleasure.
In fact because prostitution is illegal I believe it enhances the sexual experiences of some of us. Some of us or maybe its just me get tired of routine of doing the same thing day after day-our job, and seek out thrills during the night. It adds to the excitment knowing you could be busted for making a miscalculation by choosing the wrong girl, she could be a cop, or worst she has two big black boyfriends who wish to do you harm.

I frequent Las Vegas alot, but would never dream of taking that drive to those brothels where prostitution is legal; that to me is just too boring and expensive ($400) or something like that. I also do not want to pay taxes on sex. It could drive up the cost 30%

Is there a real danger? For me there is really no danger, because I have been doing this for years. I can easily spot working girls, thats both SW's and police decoys.

It's like I'm a big game hunter, sure I could get hurt, but I have the rifle.

I agree with Civ2000 that the punishment should fit the crime.

Pokey
01-05-04, 22:06
GT, I also believe someone is yanking your chain, more then likely someone who forgot to take their medicine for the multiple personality disorder they have.
But, I also believe you should take the threat seriously. This is the age of big brother. The Bush adminstation is trying to pass the Total information awareness program.( TIA) They are already used the Patriot act in "Operation G String", to go after strippers inflicting serious damage to men's wallets in Las Vegas and San Diego. I believe they could use the "Rico Act" to force Jackson to give up names on this board. In order to invoke the Rico act, there has to be a pattern of criminal activity, going to a MP multiple times, I believe will meet the criteria. They could go after Jackson for obstuction of justice, and threaten his assets in the U.S. if he doesn't comply and give the names up.

Did you know your browser can reveal what software and hardware you have, details of the links you clicked, and possibly even your email address. If you ever have entered your email in various databases and that web site has cookies, they could share your information with other companies, even L.E. It is also very easy to get IP addresses, you get longitude and latititude,city state, and country.

Even if Jackson didn't give up your names, they could still go after your ISP provider using the "Acts" above what I talked about.

In order to use your browser to get to most sites you have to allow cookies. Why do you think when or if you visit porn sites you get whole bunch of e-mail from other porn sites.( that why I don't visit them anymore, well just one.)

For example look at this website, under logging and posting problems: "Your internet browsing security settings are blocking cookies", for a long time I was unable to post because of this websites security setting were to low for me. Fortunately, Jackson fixed this problem and I can get on this site and set my security settings high. I have to do this, because my kids download tons of music, and I have visited those MP's that GT talks about.
My son has assured me he has put in protected firewalls so I won't get sued by the music companies. I also downloaded spyware software for added protection in case anyone is trying to get information about me.

Civ2000
01-06-04, 03:03
GT, I believe someone is yanking your chain as well. I've always respected your excellent posts but you lost crediblity with me when you refused to disclose the name of the software you were using. Please post the newspaper articles that will undoubtably be in the papers Friday when all those mongers get busted in Tijuana.

Pokey, I agree with you completely. The danger and risk of arrest add a thrill to mongering in the U. S. that really adds some excitement to the hobby. Likewise, I am an experienced monger who has never had any problems. I've always found it fairly easy to spot stings and real SW's are so obvious in their mannerisms.

JZ, I hope you were just joking about Canada being a model for legalized prostitution. What a shithole Vancouver has become. The highest HIV/Sylphlis rates in North America, thirty thousand IV drug abusing addicts shooting up in doorways and alleys downtown, high crime, etc. I'm thinking of moving my wife and kids up there so they can enjoy the China White and BC bud. Great place to monger but I wouldn't want to live there.

Dickhead, I agree completely, Cops suck, ex-cops suck, and anyone thinking of being a cop sucks.

Civ2K

Dickhead
01-06-04, 03:31
I think those who monger but think prostitution should be illegal leave a lot to be desired. Pokey's post was NIMBYism at its finest. What I think he doesn't get is that if it were legal he wouldn't have street walkers in his "nice suburban neighborhood." In fact, I think if prostitution were legalized you'd see fewer streetwalkers and prostitution would be less visible. I believe that if it were legalized you'd see a move towards clubs and brothels and such. Pokey's attitude, although well articulated, seems hypocritical to me.

Cops will lie about anything. I've seen it more times than I can count. Legalizing prostitution will lower the overall crime rate.

Sainter
01-06-04, 10:50
Civ2k, I think you're being a touch too harsh on JZ. Afterall, there are many here(me included) who appreciate his input into any discussion. Although I sometimes disagree with his views, he does add a intellectual touch to the opinions section. Heck, he even makes me see things I otherwise wouldn't have thought of. Don't stop doing what you do best JZ.

Dickhead, I am one of those people who think that "street prostitution" should be illegal. I have only once picked up a street walker but, I guess Im your eyes that makes me a hypocrite anyway. I feel that it's different for me because, living in Melbourne, brothels are legal and as such I can't see why anyone would want to risk going to a street walker. because

1) Police fine and severe embarresment
2) If they were "clean" they'd be in a brothel
3) No recourse if something bad happens. i.e they steal from you.
4) In some cases, the prices in brothels are comparable with
those on the street.

I know a lot of you out there do not have the luxury of legal brothels that I enjoy down under. Perhaps your opinions would change if you were accorded such priveledges.

Dickhead
01-06-04, 11:34
I've been to Melbourne and I agree that there would be no reason to pick up a street walker there. They all seemed to be junkies to me. Maybe the street walkers are a bit cheaper but IIRC the brothels were $100 AUD for an hour and with the AUD at $0.50 US that seemed low enough to me that I never considered a street walker.

Joe Zop
01-06-04, 12:36
First, Sainter, I didn't think that Civ2000 was at all harsh (though I didn't see the pre-edited version) -- disagreeing with someone is far different than a personal attack. It's hard to have a decent discussion without people disagreeing, so the only issue is whether it goes past attacking the ideas (eminently in bounds) to the person. I certainly don't expect agreement all the time, even when something seems perfectly reasonable to me -- people come at the world from many different perspectives, and, frankly, if everyone always agreed with me there's be no reason to post in the opinion areas. Viva la difference!

Civ2000, I, on the other hand, would say that Vancouver is a perfect example -- the issue there is not the model of legalized prostitution, but one of enforcement of prohibitions against SWs and of the drug trade. There are any number of legal prostitutes working in the Vancouver area who have nothing to do with the mess there. The street prostitution scene in Vancouver is illegal under Canadian law, so that's no argument for or against the model. Instead this is an argument, as has been made here earlier, (one of CJ's points) that mongers who don't understand the role of the police in controlling street prostitution are missing at least part of the point, as such activity has negative impact in a variety of ways. There's a heavy drug scene in other large cities in the northwest as well, ("heroin chic" really first made its comeback in Seattle during the grunge years, and Portland's no paradise in that regard either) and I don't see than having a lot to do with a specific model of prostitution.

As Sainter points out, if you've got legal brothels and/or escorts who charge reasonable prices there's no real need to head to the streets. That model works not only in most places in Canada, but in Oz and Holland, etc. The problem in Vancouver is drugs, first and foremost, and the desperate street scene of prostitution there is a symptom of that rather than a cause.

Pokey
01-06-04, 15:38
Dickhead, Im sorry for my hypocritcal attitude and nimby views towards the legalization of prostitution where I live . But, I think with my "DICK"
My dick believes in the hedonism doctrine thats holds, pleasure is the highest good, nothing else matters.
I may read Aristippus, and the cyrenaic school of philosophy, but it's my dick that rules my mind.
If at times my logic seems a little off base, twisted, or wrong to you. It is because my dick, doesn't care, it only wants to find a warm pussy, and a BBBJ.

Dickhead, do you believe in Canada's systems of legalized prostitution.? I visit Vancouver in the summers, because its so dam hot where I live in California. I agree with Civ2000, its a shithole, with SW's running rampant. Just look at the postings on this WSG Forum, Canada, and you can see that system is not working.

The reason why that system doesn't work is drugs, without drugs, there would not be enough hookers for us mongers to enjoy our street hobby. Drugs rule the girls lifes: their pussy's is like gold to feed the monster-drugs. We mongers are only a link on the food chain.

Im also a fan of MP's, but only because I love asian women, you can never find asian women in the streets in great numbers. The problem with MP's is you don't always get to choose your girl, and if you do choose, most people tend to pick the nicest looking one. If you ever read my postings in the TJ section you know I don't like assembly line sex, and that is what your more then likely to get at popular legal MP's. My dick hates covered BJ's, will I be able to get a BBJ at these legal brothels? Or will I have to seek it out in the streets?

Hey, some of us mongers are cheap, not all of us can have nice jobs in Ivy towers, taking the summers off fucking in Tail-land, pussyland. Why pay the extra $50 to the house, when you can just pay $50 to the girl, and get everything you want.

Legalization of prostitution will lower the crime rate. I don't even think C.J. would agree with this one.

Dickhead
01-06-04, 16:09
I'm not real familiar with the Canadian model of prostitution. I mongered in Toronto in the 70s and Vancouver in the 80s. However, in the 70s I was still in my "wonder years," as in, I wonder what happened those years. In Vancouver I called escorts from the paper IIRC; I don't think I did any street walkers, although I certainly saw plenty of them.

My favorite model is the Costa Rica model: people over 18 can engage in sex for money, or not for money, or for Jujyfruits, and it is not an LE matter. Period, end of story.

Although I don't necessarily advocate it, I'd probably be OK with outlawing street walking or restricting it to an RLD. However, I agree that the problem in Vancouver (and Melbourne, and perhaps other places) is the drugs. I can spot a drugged out chica a mile away and they are to be avoided in my opinion, whether in brothels, AMPs, on the street, or wherever. I've met some very nice street walkers in places like Buenos Aires and Méjico, who were not on drugs but preferred to be SWs in place of working in a brothel or club. This usually had to do with either wanting to work different hours or not wanting to share their take with the house, and occasionally out of fear of someone they knew coming into the club or brothel.

That is interesting about getting a charge out of the risk of being caught or beat up or whatever. Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. Sounds like the same type of rush a compulsive gambler gets. I also agree with you about the assembly line sex in brothels. That's why this board is so great. You can find the exceptions to the assembly line mentality, of whom there are quite a few. You can also find true independents. I think prostitutes must have the same rights to advertise their services as do CPAs, attorneys, etc.

All that really remains is for our resident statistician to dig up some numbers that tend to support or not support my contention that crime goes down when prostitution is legalized. I'd do it myself but I'm on the move. LE should stop wasting its time with BS "crimes" like pot and BJs and concentrate on robbery, burglary, kidnapping, and murder. If they aren't willing to do that, which in the US they quite evidently are not, then they can eat shit and die.

Joe Zop
01-06-04, 16:43
Ha, ok, DH, I'll do some research on the issue.

Personally, I rather think the independent scene should be encouraged -- not on the street, but independents in bars, lounges, etc. I've always liked places like that in a variety of settings throughout the world, from the Bangkok Soi 7 Biergarten to various hotel bars in Africa, the States, etc. Seems like a generally good compromise: the ability to be independent but a need to not be so omnipresent or so much a social embarrassment that management wants you to leave, no major impact on the kiddies or neighborhood.

Or maybe it's just that I want to see the world become film noir...

Dickhead
01-06-04, 17:15
"Personally, I rather think the independent scene should be encouraged -- not on the street, but independents in bars, lounges, etc."

Exactly.

"Seems like a generally good compromise: the ability to be independent but a need to not be so omnipresent or so much a social embarrassment that management wants you to leave, no major impact on the kiddies or neighborhood."

Bingo.

Civ2000
01-06-04, 17:17
JZ, First I must apologize. I edited out of my report a bit of a personal attack. Thats not what I'm about and I enjoy your reports also. I read it and decided it was BS and didn't foster a good discussion of the topic.

Sure drugs are a huge problem in BC. I know heroin is also a huge problem in Seattle (where I live) and in Portland where I visit on a regular basis. But in Vancouver its much more out of hand and way more visible. Although street prostitution is illegal in Vancouver, it is largely ignored and largely unenforced. Thus you get a lot of addicted women migrating there because they can support their habits without being in fear of heavy-handed law enforcement. So in some ways the de-criminalized nature of prostitution in Vancouver actually encourages drug use. Add to that Canadians non-enforcement of drugs laws and you have a big problem. Heroin and cocaine are sold in outdoor drug markets with buyers and sellers for the most part unconcerned with getting arrested. That's definately not the case in Seattle and Portland where reverse drug stings are commonplace. Not to be political here but anyone who says the Canadian system of doing anything is better than the U. S. hasn't been to B. C. High unemployment, a large and decaying downtown core, rampant drug use, high rates of STD's and TB, high crime, high taxes, and on and on. But definately a smorgasboard of good-looking and inexpensive streetwalkers. I'll dine and shop and live in Seattle's clean and safe downtown and drive up to Vancouver to pick up hooker's, though we do have a fairly decent supply of SW's here, but definately no where near what Vancouver has.

I agree with Pokey that even if prostitution is legalized there will always be a demand for the SW. Being able to go out and get a .20 bbbj is never going to go out of style. A huge number of us will never be able to afford trips to Costa Rica, Thailand, or even to AMP's or Nevada style brothels. All legalized prostitution will do is make mongering unaffordable for the average guy. A buddy of mine just returned from a legal brothel in Nevada and couldn't find anyone there to give him a CBJ for less than 200 dollars. He's not very good at bargaining and not an experienced monger but jeez, that's just ridiculous.

I don't think I like to risk getting caught or beat up but there is no denying that picking up a SW is a bit of an adrenaline rush due to all the variables and possible danger. You really never know what can happen. Everything usually goes fine but you're out there on the edge. Add to that the rush of illicite sex and you have an addictive combination. And you're right, its much the same as the compulsive gambler. The endorphins your body produces during a stressful event are the same whether its high stakes gambling, extreme sports, or picking up a hooker. And definately can be addictive.

That's it for now.

Happy Hunting!

Civ2K

Country John
01-06-04, 18:01
It's cheaper to enforce the laws against prostitution than to legalize it then regulate it. Besides, if it were legalized and regluated who would enforce the regulations? There's a lot more to this issue than meets the eye ;-)

Be Safe and BE NICE

Joe Zop
01-06-04, 18:02
Civ2000, no harm no foul, and in any event I operate from the premise that any apology closes doors on a dispute with no residual effects. Anyone can get heated and lose perspective -- that just shows you strongly believe and have an emotional attachment to what you're saying. It takes a big person to offer any apology, and that's the part I remember.

To me the lesson of Vancouver is exactly as you've stated -- that there is a need to keep drugs and their subsidiary problems under control. The indictment in the Vancouver system is lax enforcement, not the legal prostitution structure. Maybe if Vancouver started impounding cars (and I'm using this as an example, not seriously suggesting it -- I don't want to set myself up to be flamed to death!!!) that would cut down on the traffic. Vancouver has become the protypical wild port city of legend, with permeable borders and no oversight, where anything goes, anyone can get anything, etc. Sad, because it used to be one of the jewels of the northwest.

I know what you mean about the rush of picking up a SW, and I've done that in various scenarios, mostly in the town where I grew up (though not lately, since I started thinking more about the implications of the scene) but personally I'd far rather do it in the scenario I described -- a bar, where it's just as possible to get a decent deal and also to get a longer look at the provider -- than by just driving by. Not only because of the risk, but because I think it's kind of paradoxical to decry something like Vancouver's scene but then to patronize it. Doesn't that make you part of the problem also? How do you resolve that on a personal basis? To me, that's gotta be part of my own equation for how prostitution should work -- what would I find somewhat acceptable where I actually live. I've got no issues with brothels, escorts working out of their own places, massage parlors, or subdued hookers at bars being in my neighborhood. But I'm far less thrilled with the idea of a caravan of cars zooming past a line-up of women flashing their tits on the side of the road.

Civ2000
01-06-04, 22:45
Joe Zop, In all honesty I don't get to B. C. that often and when I do its usually been with the S/O. Its a six-hour round trip from where I live; not counting the hour at the border and driving around Vancouver. Thats a lot of time, gas, and energy spent looking for a BJ that can be easily obtained in 30 minutes in Seattle; albeit the selection isn't as good. Although Vancouver has its problems, it is still one of the most beautiful cities I know and worth a visit anytime.

I'm with you 100% about getting a chance to see the provider up close before going with her. I don't know how many times on a rainy Seattle night I've driven past a gal wearing a hood who looks okay from a distance. I stop and she runs up and gets in the car and I have this disgusting looking forty year old hooker who reeks of booze and cigarette smoke. And they never take kindly to "oops, I made a mistake, please get out of my car." Go figure. I guess that does make me part of the problem here in Seattle also. I despise drugs and what they do to people and do have a hard time knowing my money is being used to buy crack and heroin. There was one gal I used to pick up fairly regular who became pregnant and I just couldn't pick her up anymore. I just couldn't bring myself to give a pregnant woman money for crack. I guess those of us who monger encounter moral dillemas like this all the time; or try to pretend stuff like this doesn't happen. I could have rationalized that even though I wasn't picking her up everyone else still was; so I was acomplishing nothing, but as Jackson so eloquently stated in his editorial section (sorry if I misquote) "just because someone is already a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize them".

That's it for now.

Civ2K

Snake27
01-06-04, 23:22
All policemen I've dealt with in the US followed procedure in a polite and uncorrupted way. I've never been busted, and I think it helped in some near-busts that I was calm and polite. I'm sure there are a few jerks in the force, but I suppose they are a small minority. It is the law that sucks, not the police.

I lived in Germany for a few years and believe they have an excellent model for prostitution law. From what I've read below it sounds similar to Australia. Prostitution is legal but regulated, while street prostitution is illegal (most street prostitutes there are drug addicts or trannies -- to be avoided). Women are required to have regular health checks. They may organize in unions. I'm not completely sure about health benefits but I believe sex workers are equal under the law to other workers in the economy. The Costa Rican model described below, being more free of regulation, would work fine for people who are careful, but I slightly prefer the German system and believe it is a good compromise for a conservative society like the US. I believe that data on public health and safety support the conclusion that prostitution in Germany is very safe, but I'll admit I'm not an expert on that and I'm too lazy to research it. BTW, if you like bar style pickup, try the FKK's. They also have brothels (which are cheap) and independents. A very enlightened system !

I would be interested to see if a convincing and complete argument can be constructed for changing the US system to something perhaps along the lines of Germany. Imagine you were writing to convince lawmakers, what would you write ? Let's not just complain (although that's fun), let's try to be constructive.

Country John
01-07-04, 16:57
Snake:

You are quite correct. Cops will respond according to the manner in which the "bad guy" conducts himself. Now there is certainly no shortage of a****e cops out there (they know who they are) but for the most part, if you are respectful and polite and don't try to BS (wrong name etc.) then they'll get you processed and on your way.

Fuck with them and you get handled accordingly, as you would anywhere.

I've read a lot of posts about how terrible the cops are and I can tell you from personal experience that these guys just pick up their assignments, suit up and then go out and do the job. There is nothing personal (for the most part) about it except that some cops have very strong feeling about what we do. Whether they are right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion and I can't speak for them nor will I attempt to.

Guys, be polite to the cops, answer the questions (that they already know the answers to) and don't do anything dumb (like a lot of people do). The cops don't know if you are armed or not, they have to assume you are until they know you are not. Don't go reaching around, just be calm and let them run the show. I'm telling you now, you'll get in and out much faster.

Be a jerk and then be prepared to let them have a ton of fun with you if you have the time and want to be humiliated. It's as simple as that, like it or not.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Contry John

Sainter
01-07-04, 21:25
Eventhough I've never been to the US, I can't see them ever adopting a more liberal approach to prostitution. Not with the huge conservative underbelly that they have.

Am I right in thinking that all states outlaw street workers? And some states have legalised brothels?

My friends and I were planning a roadtrip to the US next year. Is it possible to visit all 50 states in a 3 month period? Anyone?

Joe Zop
01-07-04, 23:48
Sainter, the only state that has legalized prostitution of any kind (brothels) is Nevada, and there only in a couple of areas.

As far as visiting all fifty in three months, you could probably do it if you had the budget and stamina, but that would honestly be quite a stretch. I'm not sure you could really manage driving even to the 48 contiguous ones in that period, as that's less than two days a state and some are fairly large (Texas being slightly smaller than New South Wales.) Given that the US is around 15% larger than the continent of Oz, and pretty much all of it is habitable, that's an awful lot of travel and not much time to experience. You'd be better off picking a smaller number, perhaps by region so you can get a flavor, and spending more time in each. (There's not a truly huge difference between, say, Massachusetts and Rhode Island or North and South Dakota, for example.) I've traveled a fair bit, and there are still a couple of states I've not yet visited.

I can see prostitution being adopted in some areas, and going from there, in the same way gambling spread.

Pokey
01-10-04, 19:53
CJ, I read what you said about me in the OC forum,"knock a buzzard off a shit house". I don't understand it, but Im sure its some kind of insult. I feel the need to repond, since you started polluting this forum all over the place, with mindless dribble. It's making me ill, and Im sure other readers.( when I read your shit, I spit at the monitor, throw a book at my dog,( I miss), or go take a crap, thats how bad it it.)
The only good thing is, that since GT, used his software on you,and your mutiple ID,s that your postings under those names are down significantly.

I almost agree with some of the things you say. For example on immigration in the TJ section, but then you go on a wild tangent, off the subject. You say, " Mexicans are hard working people, because, your are married to a Mexican women( poor thing) and you have Mexicans working for you( I would quit) and they do a great job." Then CJ, you go on to say, how the Mexican is a better worker, then Americans. How do you come up with such crap, without supporting your position. Im sure both Mexicans, and Americans, are hard working, but both the illegal and illegal Mexican, lack education and experience to compete in this Country for the highter paying skill jobs,( But I'll save that debate for another time.)

CJ, you also ask about," any pictures in Friday's paper". The answer is no! But that is because no one was stupid enough to go meet with you in OperationAlleyKat II. You must have posted at least 10 posts about that, yet no one would go inspect heath cards with you in TJ, and drink soda pop, boy that sounds like fun.
I did like your posting, about the girl in the alley, you are getting better about specific information.

I have good news for you. I hear cable TV is running a marathon, on "Cops" all week. You can watch that,all day then at night go hop in your P-71, Crown Vic, and play the theme song from Cops, on your CD while crusing all over Southern California looking for SW,s. Oh, I forgot,according to your reports, you have trouble getting SW.s to hop in your car, but can you blame them for running once they see you and your car? If I was Shy Sugar, and I saw you coming down the street; I would run too!!!

Country John
01-11-04, 01:37
Poki:

You're right, I did flame you pretty badly in the OC section and for that I apologize. Pent up anger I suppose but uncalled for nonetheless. You should encourage GT to post the names I'm posting under though, you guys keep chewing on the same shit.

I see you've been watching COPS all week. Good. Hopefully you learned somehting.

I had a LCD system installed in my P71 crown vic just for that purpose, you should see it -all the lights are in the trunk though because you can't have them exposed on the car. It's enough for me just to know they are ON man.

No, Operation AlleyKat was not last Thursday. As President of my Fan Club you must already know that it is being set up for the end of the month/first of February - review your notes.

By the way, I got my James Bond Camera in the mail today so you better watch out!!

Anyway, enough of that for now. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

GettingTang
01-11-04, 05:14
This guy, Country John, just keeps digging that hole, bigger and bigger!

Poki you know why CJ has not been using them multiple aliases? Because ole Jackson has access to his IP. Read the fine print. All of our IPs are logged. He too is probably all to aware of this guys issues with identity. Funny how they all suddenly dried up once his cover was blown! But hey CJ, there are lots of kinkos and internet cafes in your area. So all is not lost for the multiple ID thing!

Funny how one of them CJ aliases, sends me emails traceable to their location from my software. Funny, how he thinks I'm so stupid as to fall for it! Funny how the emails he sends me, totally contradict what he posts in this forum. (under other IDs of course!)

It's not my place, given the honor and integrity I maintain, to disclose the other forum users who have pm me about this guy. If they would like to step up and say who they are, then they can do so. I would never do it for them, this is rude!

Given the fact not one single WSG monger showed for CJ alley cat II, I think the proof is in the pudding. 22 covers a great percentage of the posters here and obviously a great percentage had no intentions of meeting CJ.

Hey CJ, time to move on. Not too many people here even read your posts. Most scan through them at best or just skip right over them.

GETTINGTANG~!

Wiz Banger
01-11-04, 05:53
You guys should all quit while you're behind. You have too much time on your hands. Nobody really cares honestly guys. Report on the ladies or find a new forum to clutter up.

RX-7
01-11-04, 07:10
Ok I got a question for you guys..... I left work tonight and saw a chick hitch hiking down the road so I pulled over and asked where she was going. She said downtown, and even though it was about 15 minutes out of my way, I agreed to take her. A little bit in the ride she asked me if I was interested in sex.... I said no and droped her off where she wanted to be.

As I was leaving the area, a Cop pulled me over and started asking me all the usual questions (Driver's liesence, where I was coming from, what I was doing, etc) and I answered them as I was ask (yes, politely) Then she lays into me about picking up hookers and all that jazz. I politely inform the officer about how the woman came to be in my car, and the fact that she did infact proporsition me, And that I have turned her down.

The cop goes back to her car for about 3 to 5 minutes, then comes back and gives me a little spiel about "the evil hookers of my city" which I politely listen to, before she informs me that she has carded me.


What the heck does "carded" mean? Is this like a listing of my DL and vehicle plate numbers in a local database or other such crap? And should I be worried? (personally I would have to say "no" as the officer can prove nothing other then I let a girl out on a street corner. )

Any info you can tell me or direct me to would be great. I live in Canada BTW....

Wiz Banger
01-11-04, 07:57
Don't tell the cop that the SW propositioned you would be a good start. The cop isn't going to believe you for one and it will appear that you are just trying to save your ass.

Also, don't pick up hitch hikers if you want cops to leave you alone. I wouldn't give any stranger a ride, call me funny but I don't trust anyone.

I wouldn't worry too much about being "carded" just stick to my previous points and you should be fine from now on.

Pokey
01-11-04, 08:43
Rx-7, don't pickup hitch hiking women unless you are thinking of doing them. Maybe, after you got a closer look, you decided you didn't want sex or a BJ from her. I can't tell from your post why you wanted to pick her up in the first place.

RX, more then likely she was not L.E. Police women working vice, are to scared to get in car's with John's, its just too risky for them that the John will panic, and do something stupid. This is also the reason why they won't catch real mongers.

It sounds like you picked up this women in an area of known for prostitution, and the the cop followed you hoping to catch you in the act. You did the right thing by talking to them, since you really had nothing to hide.

According to CJ a few posts down from this one, he advises that you always answer the cops questions, and be polite. I say, bullshit. If you did something illegal, never ever, admit to it. L.E. thinks everyone is stupid, and will fall for their BS stories, and scare tactics. Its almost like them saying, here is the rope, now go hang yourself. (don't tell them anything)

I believe carded means she put your name in her book and maybe their computer database, and if they catch you with a hooker again, she will come down hard on you, and maybe take your car. I'm really not sure, maybe another poster knows.

If you live in Canada, you have nothing to worry about, unless you come back to town to pickup more hitch hiking SW's.

Boy, I can't wait to go to Canada this summer. I want to try that legal pussy.

Country John
01-11-04, 14:36
Hi RX-7:

If she "Carded" you she probably did what's called an "FI" card or "Field Identification" card based on your info. This get's dumped into a database for future reference. You were clearly in a "strange area" and she probably saw you drop the girl off so she wanted to shake you to see what fell out.

If you are stopped in the area again they will have a record of a previous contact with you and this will lead to further questioning. It's harmless and I wouln't worry about it unless you go back to that area looking for SW's. These people are not stupid. They've done this many times and heard every story out there.

Wanna piss the cops off? Do exactly what Poki and GT say. They talk a good fight but they'd be shitting bricks in 2 minutes if they pulled those stunts off in the real world. They know it. Anyone with an ounce of common sense will co-operate. If you're caught, your caught so suck it up and take the hit. If you' not caught then you have nothing to worry about so don't admit to anything just listen politely to the officer and be on your way.

GT indicated in numerous previous posts that he had proof that I was posting under multiple ID's.

When challenged to produce them he backtracks and doublespeaks. The fact is that he lied, he continues to lie and will continue to lie from here on out. He never posted the ID's I was supposedly using, never posted the name of the software program he also lied about that, according to him proves I wrote other posts under other names. The best he can do is to take potshots at Country John because he is exposed and needs to do whatever he can to regain some credibility in this forum.

He claims to have received 22 emails from other members that he never produced nor have 22 other members indicated that they did email him. Why would they not simply say something like "yeah I sent GT an email as he said."

It's all bullshit. The guy is a liar plain and simple. Why is this important? Well, you can't ever believe a liar. How do you know that ANYTHING he posted is true? The truth is you don't so keep that in mind as you read his mndless dribble. Can ANYONE reading this vouch for this guy? Someone out there must be able to give this guy some backup in the credibility department. It would be refreshing to see that he has (or had) a track record of credibility.

***************************************************
I hereby give Jackson unconditional consent to divulge in this forum or in any forum any and all ID's used by my IP address or by me during any session where my IP address was logged if this is possible.
***************************************************

Let's see what happens next!

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

GettingTang
01-11-04, 17:42
Not that I'm trying help speed up that hole you're digging for yourself CJ and not that I'm trying to accuse of putting words in people's mouths, or perhaps outright make stuff up, but would mind showing me where I have given ill advice on how to handle LE? Just one statement from any of my posts would be sufficient?!?

CJ, has now resorted to outright making things up that people have said or not said to fit into his agenda.

I have never advised showing them anything but respect. Funny how he continually twists the facts around!

Hey CJ, where's your buddy RODDD, talked to his wife lately?

GETTINGTANG~!

Civ2000
01-11-04, 22:27
This opinions thread is getting kind of boring lately. Instead of talking about prostitution and law enforcement it has become the "Flame Country John" section. Its okay to disagree with someone a few times, but get over it and move on already.

It almost sounds like you're writing the X-Files. Conspiracy theories, software that doesn't exist, secret alliances being formed through the PM software, American LE busting mongers in Tijuana, etc. I'd sure like to sample whatever it is that you guys are smoking.The only reason I can see for not naming the software that could nail Country John and vindicate Getting Tang is perhaps he is afraid of getting snared in his own net. Just name the software and end the discussion. Very quick and very simple!

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!!!

Civ2K

Joe Zop
01-11-04, 23:58
Amen and well said, Civ2000. This is a nice idea for a thread, but bursts of snarling and testosterone about fellow posters far outnumber the actual posts on the subject.

Chuponalgas
01-12-04, 01:55
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!
I have recently completed an exhaustive investigation, using sophisticated software, satellite surveillance, and my Magic 8-Ball. Conclusion: Country John and Getting Tang are the same person! For proof go to:

http://tlf.cx/dearpenis.swf

Pokey
01-12-04, 06:16
CJ, seriously I'll try not to flame you, oh maybe a tiny one.
I'm trying to understand your position on " cooperating" with L.E.
Your position seems to be from the 70's hit show, Berretta. I believe the mantra was," If you did the crime, then you must do the time". ( something like that)

Why must you cooperative with L.E. if you committed a minor to major crime? What about the 4th, and 5th, Amendments. I realize Ascroft, is trying to turn the U.S. into a totalitarian,fascist state, at least in regards to law and order. I also believe if given the chance the three members of the Supreme Court, Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas, are always trying to whittle away our Miranda rights, to remain silent. ( I have nothing but contempt for Thomas)

I realize that L.E, will use every trick in the book, including, lying, yelling, and threating us. I can understand it, even if I don't agree with it. But, what I don't understand, is why can't you politely refuse to answer the L.E. questions, if they have the answers anyway.

Lets take a real example, Oh lets say, Kobe Bryant, Colarado State rape case. According to the facts of the case, Kobe had bent this young girl, over the chair, and at least had rough sex with her. Did he rape her? We don't know yet, but lets say he called, Pokey, and CJ to get advise, because he can't get a hold of his lawyers, and the cops were coming up the stairs.

I as Pokey, would have Kobe, ask why are you being questioned, and as soon as the police say, possibe rape. I would have him politely say, this is a serious charge, I think I need to consult with my attorney before I talk with you. If the cops start with the scare tactics, tell them to get lost in not so nice terms to get the hell away from me, until my attorney can be here.( I understand Kobe's lawyers have made motions of what Kobe said, to the police thrown out, because of his Miranda rights.)

CJ, as I understand your position, you would tell Kobe, the Berretta manta, and say to cooperate with the police, because they know the answers anyway. If you don't cooperate with them, they will get upset, and treat you harshly.

Is this your postion? If not, please explain, because it seems to me, and some other readers, you are telling mongers to rolllover and confess to the police.

Civ2000
01-12-04, 07:00
Pokey, I think an example from my past is in order. I was pulled over for speeding and the officer spotted a marijuana pipe on the floor of my car. His first question was: "whose marijuana pipe is that"? Now in the span of about 3 seconds I had major decisons to make. 1) Lie about it and say it belonged to the hitchhiker I picked up earlier that day 2) Do like any good defense attorney would suggest and exercise my right to remain silent 3) Tell the truth. Now I knew if I lied about it I would get busted for sure. I would be insulting his intelligence; he'd know I was lying and I'd be going down. If I said "sorry sir, I'm exercising my constitutional right to remain silent", I would be pissing him off and since he had me dead to rights I would be busted for sure anyway. I picked option #3 and looked him straight in the eye and said "it's mine". He said "thanks for being honest", tossed the pipe and sent me on my way.

So that may be what CJ is talking about. I don't believe he is saying at all if caught in a major crime to start talking without an attorney--which you should never do. Or if a cop accuses you of driving around to pick up prostitutes--I would remain silent as well. But for a minor crime or traffic ticket where they have you nailed 100%, I think maybe honesty might be your only way out. If you hear them knocking at your car window with their flashlight while a hooker is in the process of giving you a bj and they ask whats going on, it might just be better to suck it up (no pun intended) and tell the truth. You're busted anyway and what do you have to lose?

Civ2k

RX-7
01-12-04, 07:24
I have missed most of the arguement that seems to revolve around CJ...

But speaking as some one who has been on the wrong side of the law before (and not just this recent incident) It is usually better off to be polite and co-operative with the police. Now, I am not saying confess to a crime, I am saying, state you name, and your address, provide any back-ground info they ask for, and then POLITELY ask for an lawyer. If they persist, you just stay POLITE, and ask again, and again for your lawyer. The moment you start swearing or being rude, the LONGER you will be "detained"


For the record, in Canada Prostitution is NOT legal.... at least not the way you think it is. There is a maze of laws around prostitution in canada but it basically boils down to this.... If it happens in a PRIVATE place, away from view, it is ok. what I mean by this is if you goto an in-call service you are fairly safe (as long as the business has it's butt covered with the right permits) if you arrange for an out-call service (and do not discuss price for sex) you are ok. If you pick up a hooker on the street and the cop feels like busting you or shaking you down, that's fair game. And if you want to know a little more the law is "solisitation for the purposes of sexual relations" (miss-spelled) There are also laws about living off the avails of prostitution , and operating a brawdy house, and several more. Also, for you American shoppers, your 4th and 5th amendments don't appy up here (of course) but we have a similar law and right. While you do not have to answer any questions with out a lawyer, once you lawyer is there, they can continue to question you... (your lawyer will tell you what questions to anwser and what ones not to)

As for some info on why I picked this girl up... It was cold and wet outside and it was 1 am. I felt like doing a good deed for the week. Keep in mine to, that Canada has like 1/50th of the crime of the States and be a 30 yr old male weighing in a little over 200 pounds I felt pretty safe. Also the area that I picked the girl up wasn't in a know profession area (more like commercial and low/med income housing) so a working girl wasn't at all what I expected. Yes, I did drop her off on the strip (as that is where she wanted to go) and that is where I picked up the cop on my tail (I think).

And as for why I told the cop; it's simple really, it was the truth. If the cop had stoped me then she knew the girl was a working girl and not just a bar hopper (the stroll is only 2 -6 blocks from 5 different bars) and trying to say that she wasn't a hooker would have been worse then the truth. Also, I am pretty sure at least 2 of my co-workers saw me pull over to give her a ride so if the cop really did want to be a ***** and arrest me, I had 2 ppl who could say that they saw her hitch-hiking. Plus the fact that talking to some one, no matter who they are is not against the law, there is nothing the cop could have really done with out putting herself over the political barrel.

Just cause I am polite with the LE doesn't mean I am stupid, or afraid to stand up for my rights and privledges.... The trick is knowing how and when and what to do. the worste, it would be an uncomfortable stay in jail till bail was set, but in the end the minimal best would be a dismissal of charges. The ABSOLUTE best: a dismissal, a letter of appoligy and a notice of tranfer/termination of the officer involved.

Country John
01-12-04, 12:32
Poky, here's your assignment before your next post:

Re-read Civ's and RX-7's posts again and again until you understand them. They did a much better job than I in explaining the "co-operation" issue, they are more patient than I. I get the distinct impression that you are just a wanker and like to incite long winded discussions. I have a feeling you're smarter than that.

You surely know that your chances of having a negative experience with LE will be enhanced if you are an asshole and try to make the LEO look like an idiot.

Chuponalgas, the link was great. LOLTFOCOF!

RX-7, don't be concerned about the flaming, it's all mindless dribble. A poster (GettingTang~!) said he discovered using sophisticated software that I was posting under multiple ID's so I'm supposed to be some sort of fraud. Actually I'm supposed to be a mole setting everyone in the forum up for a bust in Mexico.

Truth is, I did set up one member for a bust, a couple of them, I think they were double "D's." Big, nice, round firm ones with an ass attached.

Well, GettingTang turns out to be some sort of liar because he never posted the ID's I was "using" or the name of the "software" he was "using." I gave Jackson unconditional consent to post all ID's eminating from my IP if requested by GettingTang but guess what. . . .

GT: You are obviously still trying to distract members and direct attention away from your lying ass. Your cheap shots at me amount to nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to back away from the issue of your lies. Fortunately there are members who see that you are a liar and have no integrity very clearly so there is no need for me to engage you any further.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Pussey Lover
01-12-04, 20:26
Country John!

You do not belong in the WSG Forum.

To have sex with a SW or with a escort for mony is illegal.

I LE will see you having sex wite a escort or a SW they will arrest you in jail and you wiil sew the LE is right.

So please, you do not belong in this Forum.

Go back to LE and leave this Forum for people who love to enjoy to fuck a pussy.

GO! GO! GO! GO!

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to fix dozens of simple, idiotic writing errors. In fact, this report was so bad that I can only assume that you just don't give a damn about creating extra work for me. To avoid delays in future reports, please proof-read your reports before posting them.

Please review the Forum's Posting Guidelines (http://www.wsgforum.com/postingguidelines.html) for further information.

Thanks!

Pussey Lover
01-12-04, 21:54
Country John,

Did you belive we are doing somthing wrong to want to fuck a SW or an escort for money?

If yes, please do not loggin.

GO! GO!

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to fix dozens of simple, idiotic writing errors. In fact, this report was so bad that I can only assume that you just don't give a damn about creating extra work for me. To avoid delays in future reports, please proof-read your reports before posting them.

Please review the Forum's Posting Guidelines (http://www.wsgforum.com/postingguidelines.html) for further information.

Thanks!

Pussey Lover
01-12-04, 22:24
Country John,

The truth is every SW and everyone of us is doing - money for sex. We are doing against the lew. So the LE is our enemy, we are people going aganst the law, and LE is after the John and they are ready to do everyting to stop us. The LE wil not have us so simply. So it is not in, plaese to say good tings about the LE.

The LE is the enemy of every hooker.

Simple

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to fix dozens of simple, idiotic writing errors. In fact, this report was so bad that I can only assume that you just don't give a damn about creating extra work for me. To avoid delays in future reports, please proof-read your reports before posting them.

Please review the Forum's Posting Guidelines (http://www.wsgforum.com/postingguidelines.html) for further information.

Thanks!

Pokey
01-13-04, 21:36
Civ 2000,
When I am pulled over for speeding, and the Cop asked me," do you know why I'm pulling you over? I say, no but I'm sure you're going to tell me. Sometimes they get a little pissed, when I say that, but I am not going to admit guilt, even in minor traffic tickets. I win 50% of the time, but only because the cops will show up only 1/2 the time. When they do show up, its 100% like you said, you will lose.

I don't shit in my pants if a cops catches me with a SW. It happened to me 3 times, and I only admitted what I was doing once, and my record is clear, except Im in the database in one city. 1st time, I gave a girl $10 before the act. It turned out she brought drugs with it, and the cops followed me and pulled me over, the girl tossed it before they pulled me over. We didn't say anything, and we were let go. Since then no stopping and getting back in my car. 2nd time, the girl wanted me to drop her off near a drug house, I said no problem, but your not coming back in my car. The dumb cops stops us before I could drop her off, separated us, they said, she admitted that I paid her for sex. My story was I was only dropping her off, and that if what she said was true, she would make a bad witness, it turns out she didn't say anything like that. 3rd time, I was followed, but I took the girl to a motel, so they didn't see anything, and when we finished she didn't get back into the car. The cops ( task force) were looking for a seriel Killer,a guy called Willliam Suff, who they later caught., I could tell they were not fooling around. I told them everything they wanted to know. I was let go, but they put me in their database. ( all these things happened many years ago)

I rarely, do SW's anymore, since Im getting older, and TJ is only one hour away from where I work. I drive a small sports car so anything in the car is now out of the question, but from time to time I recuit a newbee, go to a MP, or find women in Las Vegas.

Its too bad, CJ doesn't want to debate my question, regarding Kobe. I don't believe CJ, would ever say, in minor, or major crimes to invoke the 5th. I don't know him, but from his writings, it seems like he loves talking, and he could never keep quiet.
Well, at least I got him to keep quiet regarding this post and to not response to everything.

Country John
01-14-04, 20:44
Poky Says:
---------------------------------------------------
"When I am pulled over for speeding, and the Cop asked me," do you know why I'm pulling you over? I say, no but I'm sure you're going to tell me. Sometimes they get a little pissed, when I say that, but I am not going to admit guilt, even in minor traffic tickets. I win 50% of the time, but only because the cops will show up only 1/2 the time. When they do show up, its 100% like you said, you will lose."
----------------------------------------------------
Why be a dickhead about it? Why even put yourself or the cop in the position of having to deal with a bullshit remark like that? Why can't you just treat people with dignity and respect? After all, it was YOU who ran the light, blew the sign or whatever it was, not the cop.

What you are really saying is "I'm a smartass and I know you pulled me over because you have nothing better to do than to pick on little old me."
-----------------------------------------------------
"Its too bad, CJ doesn't want to debate my question, regarding Kobe." See Below.

"CJ, as I understand your position, you would tell Kobe, the Berretta manta, and say to cooperate with the police, because they know the answers anyway. If you don't cooperate with them, they will get upset, and treat you harshly. " See Below.

"Is this your postion? If not, please explain, because it seems to me, and some other readers, you are telling mongers to rolllover and confess to the police."
-------------------------------------------------------
The police had what they thought was sufficient evidence at the time to press Kobe so at the time they believed they already had most of the answers.

Kobe might be a mega millionaire but he also has a dick. As such it is not unreasonable for the cops to believe that he was a viable suspect under the circumstances given the amount of detail they had about the incident.

Given the serious nature of the accusation (rape as opposed to prostitution) I would have told him to keep his mouth shut until his attorney showed up which he apparently did. To be honest, I am not following the case closely. I'm just saddened to see what should have been a star career polluted by this mess.

If on the other hand the cop walks up on the swaying SUV and Kobe is observed doing the glam slam in a public place, I'd advise him to co-operate and not try to bullshit the officers.

There is a huge difference between the two issues you raise Poky.
----------------------------------------------
"I don't believe CJ, would ever say, in minor, or major crimes to invoke the 5th. I don't know him, but from his writings, it seems like he loves talking, and he could never keep quiet.
Well, at least I got him to keep quiet regarding this post and to not response to everything.
---------------------------------------------

Poky, you only invoke the 5th when you're on the stand in your own criminal trial, before a grand jury etc in order to prevent testifying against your self that would lead to proving your own guilt. You know this. I'm not sure why you would have made such a statement but I can guess all day long.

As far as the rest of your post in concerned, more mindless dribble. Every once in a while you seem to have something worthwhile to say without engaging in flaming tactics.

I understand you better than you think. I've arrested gangs of guys like you. You should take a moment and decide whether your flaming tendancies really get you anywhere. Even though they might work for you, you can't expect people to take you seriously forever.

Hopefully I've addressed your questions.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

GettingTang
01-15-04, 00:15
any attorney in the US will tell you the same thing! "keep your fricken mouth shut!" If Le ever questions you about a speeding violation, running a stop sign, paying for sex, you have an absolute right to say nothing. If they have enough proof of these violations to charge you then they will, if they don't, they will try and intimidate you into believing they do. they will try and find a bargaining point. They might suggest, it's really the hooker we want and not you, they will often offer to let you pass if you make a statement against the girl. Only one problem with this, the girl who is 30 feet away and out of you hearing range, is likely being offered the same deal. Unless you have it in writing, it's simple. The cops are lying to you. They can and do lie. They don't give a shit how or what they do to nail you with solicitation. So please, do not takes CJ advice.

If you're screwing a hooker and you get caught red handed. It's simple! SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!

You do not have to show the cops disrespect, you don't have to lie to them, you don't have to make a deal. Just shut your mouth! In this type of scenario, it will likely piss the cops off, why? Because now they will have a much, much harder time charging you and the girl with prostitution! SIMPLE! AND............if the cops involved get really pissed off and charge you with something because they are emotional and angry at your lack of cooperation, they know it will likely be thrown out in court!

Here are some simple facts to remember:

1. If you are busted in an undercover sting, you might be in for it and be rightfully charged. This type of situation should never happen. It's my opinion this only happens to stupid mongers.

2. If you doing the deed, caught picking up a hooker, followed and pulled over, they walk up on you with your pecker in her mouth or vagina, whatever the situation might be, they is nothing other then a possible indecent exposure they can charge you with, UNLESS ONE OR BOTH OF YOU ADMIT TO HAVING SEX FOR $!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comprendo???????????????????

So if you're in your car having a good time, or you pickup a hooker and get followed by the cop and then pulled over, unless you fall for their tricks in getting you to turn on her and her to turn on you and admit to paying for it, there is nothing they can do! UNDERSTAND??

So basically pickup girls you know will hold their ground, discuss it with them before hand. Tell them both of us will keep our mouths shut, no matter what and go have fun!

Last, don't be stupid and fall for a sting. These are so easy to spot, it's almost comical!

So cooperate all you want with LE, take Country John's advice. You will get nailed, and cited and probably do a few days in jail. You will likely have a record. All for opening you mouth!

Country John
01-15-04, 00:44
I would only respond that GT's post is seriously lacking in common sense, as usual.

I mean there you are, pecker in mouth, and you are going to insult someone's intelligence by saying nothing. Not only is it stupid but it's really stupid. No, it's really really stupid. Start that and you're going to give the cop a "book of probable cause."

'Cmon GT, you're smarter than that, this is just another opportunity to flame 'ol Country John. As soon as you stop your lie'n ways, we'll take you seriously again. Until then, don't bother. You're just wasting everyone's time.

If you are detained for something serious then of course, keep your mouth shut but when you're caught and you know you're caught then don't be stupid too. We all know there are penalties for mongering, you're not going to go to jail (unless something else comes up). Being stupid could make the difference between a 15 minute experience and who knows how long. Treat the cops with respect. They'll reciprocate (in most cases). Be an asshole and you'll be treated just like one (in all cases). There's no sense in prolonging an already difficult situation.

If you can't make sense out of this you shouldn't be out there taking chances that will get you in trouble.

Be Safe and BE NICE.

Joe Zop
01-15-04, 00:45
Well, I see no advantage whatsoever to being quiet or spouting off if I'm stopped for speeding or some other misdemeanor or, in some cases, solicitation. Doing that means I'm going to be ticketed or arrested, and even if I decide to invest the time to try to beat it it's gonna be a major pain.

I'd far rather try to talk my way out of it, and I'm not going be able to do that if I make clear to the cops I'm a smartass or by stonewalling them. Far better to fess up to a smaller version of things or to try to read the cop well enough to know whether or not telling the plain truth is going to get me off. If I fess up I'm not going to win a court case, but the entire idea is never to have to deal with one at all.

And if they're going to take my car I'm sure as hell going to try to talk them out of it.

GettingTang
01-15-04, 01:05
Could you two please explain to me how it's obvious? Did they see how much you paid her, or offered her? One cannot assume when it comes to the law. Only hard facts holdup in court. If I do not admit to it and she does not either, they have no evidence! Even if she is a known hooker. For all they know it could have been a mercy date! For all they know she could have just been horny! For all they know she could have been an old GF!

Unless they saw $ being offered or changing hands for the act of sex, or YOU ADMIT IT! THEY HAVE NOTHING ON YOU! It will never holdup in court and you two are wise enough to know this.

As for it being way to much hassle as JZ contends, baloney. 99-1 they drop the charges if you fight it. The prosecution attorney will look at the evidence, the cop will likely not even show and the case gets booted!

Sainter
01-15-04, 01:51
GT, most of us know the rules relating to evidence. But why put yourself in that position in the first place. Sure if you get charged, most likely the case will get thrown out, but, won't your attitude bring unwanted embarresment? The cops will most likely let you go provided you are courteous and polite. To flame them thus getting charged, just smacks of shere stupidity.

Miller2k
01-15-04, 02:33
Here's a question for someone with a legal background:

What's the legality of making direct plans to go mongering in a foreign country? For example, when Country John makes plans to meet up with men for the stated purpose of picking-up prostitutas, is he violating the law? Can he, and any men who show, be charged with anything by the US LE ? I'm pretty sure that conspiring to break a US law in a foreign country is borderline at best, but my limited law classes in college (mostly in the area of intellectual property) never covered this.

Just wondering...Have Fun, guys!

OttoGraham
01-15-04, 03:20
it is theoretically possible that under some state or federal statutes this could be considered a crime.

however, the number of prosecutions of such offenses are to my knowledge, zero. there are many unused and silly criminal laws on the books that are not enforced - for example in kentucky people are required under threat of prosecution to take a bath once a year.

no u.s. prosecutor is going to waste one second of time on something like that, unless there is something much more sinister involved than simply going abroad to sleep with trixies.

in that vein, germany has (rightly) initiated some prosecutions of its citizens who have gone abroad for **** sex tours with very young women. this was done under german law.

-uncle otto

GettingTang
01-15-04, 05:11
The real big question to pose here is how many of us might be incriminating ourselves by using this forum.

This is why about every post I mention that everything I post here is basically made up. And seriously it is!

It is only logical to conclude that LE could very easily obtain our IP address and either monitor us, investigate us, or better yet, detain you for questioning.

I'm all to aware of our first amendment rights, however, I'm all to aware of how LE can use any means necessary to gather evidence in a criminal probe!

That being said, think about this for a minute. We can agree that the discussion here on this forum, involves boasting and speaking openly about something that is illegal, right? Well, then ask yourself this; what if we were discussing on this forum how we might deal in drugs, or rob a bank, or how we got away with stealing our neighbors car, or whatever criminal activity we choose! Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't think LE would use anything and everything posted to this forum, to at the VERY least, investigate you? Come on!

They can and very well could be!

I am 100% serious when I state openly I was all too aware of this when joining and posting to this forum. This is why everything I have ever posted here is false and make believe!

Keep this in mind.........................."if LE wants to know who you are by what you have posted here, trust me, they already do!"

"if this thread were about talking opening and sharing info about higher crimes such as the ones listed above, you can count on LE paying you a visit, just because your crime here of choice is considered a lessor evil, does not make it not a crime and subject to LE's attention! "

Something for you all to think about....................

GETTINGTANG~!

Sainter
01-15-04, 06:51
GT, where do I start? You are rambling on like a [Deleted by Admin]. For a start, there is absolutely no way known that LE could be bothered to use member posts to prosecute people. There are just too many reasons for this. Here's a few:

1) They have more important things to do than spending heaps of time and resources on this goose chase.

2) They'll have a hell of a time proving their case.

3) Are you telling me that suddenly we're gonna have the homes of thousands of WSG members raided and their computers seized?

I have a LE background and in my experience the scenario you paint could only happen if "pigs fly".

Gosh, I really cannot believe the lunacy of your arguments. Are you sure [Deleted by Admin].

And for you to post 100% made up reports, well, why don't you save all of us the trouble and [Deleted by Admin]! Stop wasting our time and wasting valuable space. [Deleted by Admin]

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was edited in accordance with the WSG Forum's Zero Tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another Forum Member or the Forum Membership in general.

Country John
01-15-04, 11:17
People all over this forum are beginning to see that GT is a "baiter" in that his posts appear to be for the sole purpose of either flaming LE or pissing someone off. Very little serious discussion eminates from his posts.

If anyone is approached by LE, their first impulse should be to at least be polite. Take it from there. As the saying goes, "if it starts bad it's gonna end bad."

Start on a positive note as best as the situation allows. If you're caught doing something illegal then there it is. You need to work with what you got. Sure, some cops don't show up for trial, but YOU DO don't you? Nothing like having a coffee by the pool knowing that some loud mouth prick showed up on his ticket!!

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Joe Zop
01-15-04, 11:43
You might find it no hassle, GT, and may even enjoy the process of fighting city hall, given your apparently contentious nature, but I don't -- I've got better things to do with my time than try to beat the system. If I get a ticket I know I deserve I'm just going to pay it and move on. I don't necessarily disagree that you don't need to say anything -- if you're caught in flagrante delicto a denial's not going to get you anywhere, that's for sure, and it's likely to piss the cops off. Saying nothing is better than insulting their intelligence. But if it's possible to admit a small portion of guilt and not the whole thing (like, for example, admitting you were speeding but denying you were going 20+ over) then there's often a compromise or simple warning available. Saying nothing generally means you're getting cited for whatever made them come up to you.

As far as Pokey's attitude thing, during my time working I made a point (as did most others) of being very careful to take good notes in my log anytime I had an encounter with someone who gave me attitude or lip. This was for my own protection, as these were most likely the folks who were going to push things by complaining about mistreatment, being singled out, or who were going to fight things. The prosecutors basically always asked for information, and would tend to resist dropping things where someone gave grief. Unlike others, I showed up for people who gave me shit -- I had people throw things at me, and even two who drove off and tried to clip me with their cars in a very clear intentional way. (One of those guys fought his ticket -- you can be damn sure I showed up for that!) And all it ever took was for me to say in court that I'd been cursed or disrespected for the judge to throw the book at the defendant. And this was mostly for parking or speeding tickets -- it gets even more to the point in other instances.

During my two years on the department, we had one cop killed, four others shot (two in a highly publicized cop vs. cop shootout) and scores more who were injured during confrontations while doing their jobs. It's a very rare thing for something like that to occur without warning -- usually it starts with attitude and escalates, so cops naturally get their radar up when someone starts giving lip, for their own protection. The absolute last thing I want, when I'm dealing with cops, is for adrenaline to be surging through them; I want things over with and I want to move on.

And GT, given that you feel we're all setting ourselves up for criminal conspiracy charges, can you cite any examples of where there's been prosecution for conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor (beyond cases where it's a knock-down from conspiracy to commit a felony)? I mean, I can theoretically get cited in Arkansas for mispronouncing the name of the state, or for defacing a milk carton in Massachusetts, but that hardly means it's going to happen or is something we need to waste time worrying about. Sainter's three points are dead-on, IMHO, and in addition to everything else a very valid question would be: who exactly do you envision leading such an investigation? The feds? Your local PD? It's gotta come from somewhere, and someone in San Diego making a good case against a punter from Sweden isn't exactly going to get them a gold star for good use of their time and local resources.

Catfish
01-15-04, 14:58
CJ,

I tend to agree with you more and more that GT is simply baiting, but in his post about saying nothing when caught red-handed, I tend to disagree with you that that would be a mistake. If I were in any situation facing charges of anything greater than an infraction, I would keep my mouth shut. It is my understanding that from the moment you are popped, especially if it seems clear-cut, the cops job is to collect evidence against you. They are not watching out for something you might say to change their mind. They are carefully storing everything you say just in case any of it can be used against you. What if they do catch you with your pecker in her mouth and you blurt out, "Sorry officer, I couldn't control myself and I picked up this hooker and paid her twenty bucks for a blow job. Please go easy on me." Then later, after you got a lawyer to analyze the case, it turns out the cop screwed up somewhere in the stop and you probably would have got off, had you had not opened your big yapper!

JMHO

Paddy
01-15-04, 15:01
I posted this on another forum but it should have gone here under P&LE.

In my fair city if the cops bust you, both you and the girl are arrested, taken into custody, booked and jailed. You're also hit with a fine approaching a thousand dollars for a first offense. So is the girl.

Matters proceed to get much worse for the guy. If your car was used in any way during the encounter, it's impounded and put up for auction by the police department. Yes, you lose your car. The name of the John is also published in the newspapers along with the specific offense in an attempt to embaress you. How's that for persecution??? Don't the legislators, cops and courts have anything better to do with their time??? Also, with this type of mentality prevailing the whole concept of "decriminilization" seems to be light years away.

GettingTang
01-15-04, 16:55
I am coming to the conclusion that what people do on this particular thread is to only read a sentence or two of another's post and then respond to it as if they have read the entire thing.

If you wish to respond to my postings, please do, i openly accept the critics, yes even you CJ, but at least have the courtesy of responding to what I have actually wrote!

1. CJ, once again for the zillionth time, please show me where I'm advocating fighting cops and inflaming them?

2. Please tell me how exercising your right to keep quiet is somehow a major in your face offense.

3. People, including LE can assume all they want, we all judge others, its human nature, but again, please tell me how if a cop pulls up on you in the act of sex, they can charge you with something that will stick if you and the girl keep quiet???? EXPLAIN PLEASE?!? Sure they can fully assume they know what you were up to, but once again, assumptions are not evidence! Unless you or here admit she was paid, they have no choice to let you go! Now if she was in violation of being out, had a warrant, or was violating other terms from prior charges, then indeed she might get taken in.

4. My point with my last post should have been all too clear, I agree LE is not likely to come after anyone for posting to this forum, but you damn well better believe they COULD! As i said below, if we were openly boasting about dealing drugs, stealing cars, or other things against the law, do you not think they would use what your wrote as at least a point to open an investigation??? You cannot argue here that what we speak openly of, is not about breaking laws. I don't necessarily buy into the theory that just because it's not a major violation we get a free pass!

5. As we all know, all too well, LE and city council members have always used the excuse as to why prostitution is illegal is because, with it, comes far greater crimes! So you people are foolish if you believe you might not be being watched! Probably not, but hey stranger things have happened, right?

Think about this, what if in the area you post in or monger in, they have had a serial rapist, or gangster robbing the girls, or are looking for someone. You can bet they will check over this forum! It only makes sense!

Country John
01-15-04, 17:24
Paddy:

I hear ya man, but clearly, some jurisdictions have stricter laws than others.

The answer to the question "Don't the legislators, cops and courts have anything better to do with their time??? " is YES. Problem is we're clogging up the system with frivality. The legislators, cops and courts are simply enforcing laws enacted by the people we elect (when we show up).

When we are smart enough to make the problem go away by being smart then there will be less need for enforcement and tough penalties. The pressure to "crack down" comes from the citizens and business owners. Cops would really rather be out there grabbing the "real" bad guys.

Johns & girls are so flagrant and bold and that becomes an easy target especially during an election year but keep in mind you wouldn't tolerate a SW scene on your street either (and rightfully so).

I had the question put to me many times "Don't you have anything better to do?" "Arn't there real criminals out there you could go after?" "Why are you chasing me when there are more serious crimes to handle?"

Well, if you were not out there being a "nice" bad guy breaking your own little laws, maybe I'd have a chance to go after the "real" bad guys.

I'd show on most of my tickets but I knew which ones I wouldn't go on. If it was a "serious" infraction I'd go but if some lame brain decided he was going to try to ruin my day, I'd make it worth my while and give him (or her) a day off work.

It's a common practice to write the first comments out of the violators mouth on the back of MY COPY of the cite. Especially if it was nasty. Since we were allowed to refer to our "notes" it was simple to make it stick and it also provided some very colorful moments in court. So if you are going to say ANYTHING, be nice.

I can't tell you how many people I let drive away from what I intended to be a ticket. IN most cases there was a short meaningful discussion, the person wasn't out to piss me off. They were ready to sign and I would let it slide because the warning and the stop did the job as far as I was concerned. Call it selective enforcement if you want to but there were many opportunities to correct mistakes without costing someone money or time. Foul mouth Adam Henrys were quite a different story. I loved 'em.

Traffic, however was never the main focus.

I guess in some jurisdictions the SW scene is a REAL big problem for the citizens and businesses. Laws will tend to be stricter I guess in these areas. I can certainly understand why.

Common sense common sense common sense guys. That's one thing you need to keep in mind. If you treated a service writer at a car dealership with the same disrespect, what do you suppose would happen to your repair bill? Cops are people too.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Pokey
01-15-04, 18:29
I don't as a matter of personal policy get confrontational with cops everytime they pull me over. If he ask me a stupid question, designed for me to hang myself and admit guilt, then yes I will have a smart ass remark. I do get out of some tickets 30% of the time. You can usually figure that out in the first 5 seconds talking to the cop, is this guy going to let me go.

But, I don't sit around kissing the cops ass, hoping he is going to let me go. There are certain situations where you are not going to get off, no matter how much ass-kissing you do. Driving 95mh, coming back at 3:00am from TJ on the 805. The HighwayPatrol, risks their life everytime they pull someone over on the freeway. You never get off, nor do the motocycle cops, where I live every let you off. ( last ticktet no seatbelt, I gave the cop shit, and fought it in court, I lost he showed up for a $30 ticket)

I also believe if you are caugh with a SW in your car having sex, the cop is not going to let you off, for being nice to them. You have nothing to gain from talking to them, but rather everthing to lose, depending on your job, and family situation.

I also consider being busted with a prostitute a serious personal thing, just as much as Kobe, in his current situation where he could do many years of jail time. There are a few Mongers on this board if your wife found out, what you were doing, would not take you back. I think we might have a few people in the ecucational field in this forum , that could lose their job, if you get busted for having sex with a SW.

I think the best thing to do if guily of a crime of pleasure is keep your mouth shut, who cares about hurting the cops feelings, when your life could be destoyed. Cops are so scared now, of getting complaints, because it can go against their records if true or not, that they are at times refusing to engage in their jobs.

CJ, you say you busted guys like me. Hey, Im a nice guy. I really have only one vice, and that's "SEX". The girls have at times offered me drugs, but Its not for me. I did smoke pot in High school and college. I have also drove drunk a few times, but really not anymore. I do tend to speed, but can you blame me, TJ is close to my job, but really a long way from my house.
So, the only place where you would find me doing anything illegal, was having sex in the car, which I really don't do anymore.( once or twice for the thrill)

Oh I forgot, I once engaged in a sexual practice against the law in Texas a fews years ago with a nice looking lady. CJ was that you in the window trying to look in?

Civ2000
01-15-04, 19:11
GT, You asked how can the cops bust you for something if they pull up on you while you're having sex with a hooker as long as you remain quiet. Well for starters, how about for lewd conduct, public nudity, etc, etc? In fact these charges may be worse than a solicitation charge. Or is it okay to have sex in a car where you live? I know the average monger when asked whats going on isn't going to volunteer any extra information. "Oh and by the way officer she's not my girlfriend, she's a hooker who I picked up on 5th and Bell. I offered her fifty dollars to have sex with me". Come on now. You and the rest of us are much smarter than that.

I agree with Joe Zop. I'm going to try and talk my way out of it if I can. This is much better than taking time off work to fight it out in court, have your wife or employer find out, pay lawyers, lose your car, etc ad nauseum. If I get pulled over I will admit to speeding. Lying or remaining silent will guarantee you a ticket. I walk away from about 80% of my traffic stops and believe me I've been pulled over dozens of times. I am always respectful, polite, and don't pull any crap.

Now there are times to remain silent. You don't have to incriminate yourself, admit to breaking the law when all they have is their suspicions. Like if you get pulled over and they ask you what you're doing. "Cruising for prostitutes sir". Don't do their job for them. But for traffic violations and minor offenses where they have you nailed; again for clarification if the cop knocks on your window while your dick is in some chick's mouth; remaining silent or denying it won't get you too far. Saying something like "sorry officer, my girlfriend and I were coming home from a party and we just couldn't control ourselves" might get you some slack from an understanding officer. Of course this doesn't work if you're with a known prostitute. Every situation is different and you have to wing it a lot of the time. Also, if you are caught doing a serious crime or felony then of course shut up.

Civ2K

P. S.

CJ, What's with that newby bashing you already? Seven posts and three of them are flames. Someone should tell him to post some useful information before he goes attacking the senior members. Perhaps if we can get our hands on GT's elusive software we might find he's someone posting under multiple identities.

Country John
01-15-04, 20:34
Civ2000:

I don't Know man. There's a lot of anger against LE and XLE. Just dummies don't know how to talk to people is all. Seems to be several NEGATIVE INFLUENCES on the board and that may have a bearing on it too. Hey newbes, don't flame Country John. He's a nice guy and only wants to help!

I've developed a tactic to deal with the "getting caught with your dick in her mouth" situation, you're closer than you think Civ. I'll PM it to by "buddies." It's pretty cool too. Doesn't make anyone look like a moron. Ran it by a few XLE buds already and they said it's solid, as long as they don't know the girl too well. Only thing is you got to have a brain so that automatically disqualifies a few people who's names I won't mention because everybody already knows who they are anyway so what's the point eh?.

Use to be that when you roll on your shift, even though you try to be ready for anything you are not out there to pick on the guy getting the BBBJTCIM in the back of his car. You have to intervene though if there is lewed conduct or nudity in a public place. So you're spot on about that Civ.

So keep the lewd conduct and nudity in as private a place as possible, away from the public parks, parking lots etc etc. It's usually when you're in public or actively soliciting in plain sight that'll get you nailed. Common sense stuff eh?

Oh yeah, don't throw the condoms in the parking lot. Business owners scream like hell about it (as they should) and not only that, you might choke an animal!

Now if we could just find out what that software package is, jeez, that would be cool but looks like GT isn't going to give it up. I'll stick with my James Bond Camera (which is pretty cool by the way) and my Green Hornet Decoder Ring. Far more reliable that GT's software!

I'm gonna get some pics in the Alley next time out and get them up on the TJ section so stay tuned!

There is a big difference between "giving up information," "Volunteering information," "telling the truth," "bullshitting the nice officer" and "outright bare faced lies." The LEO knows when he's being bullshitted, that's for sure unless you have a good tactic, it's going to be easier to the LEO to prove you wrong to make a charge stick because the easiest thing to use when trapping a purp is his own lies.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

Sainter
01-15-04, 23:59
I think we should all just agree to disagree. GT, you can do whatever you want. Hey at the end of the day it's you who'll have to face the music. Anyway if I was a little too rough on you earlier, I apoligise. But please refrain from posting false reports as it jeopardises the integrity of this forum. Thanks.

GettingTang
01-16-04, 01:40
Did you ALL failed reading comprehension?

Civ2000, If you had of actually read what you are responding too, you would clearly see, I mentioned you could be charged with indecent exposure! Yet you comment a reply to my post as if I never stated this.

I give up here, if we are going to have a rationale discussion regarding any topic, we need to at least be responding to what the other person wrote! Don't you think? You people are full of assumptions, you read one or two sentences of another guys posts and ramble on for paragraphs about nothing he wrote about! Or take things out of context.

I'm out, for now, until you all go back and locate your 6th grading reading teachers and learn how to comprehend what you are reading, or lack there of!

Joe Zop
01-16-04, 02:28
With all due respect, GT, lewd conduct is quite different from indecent exposure, as is, say, public fornication, something else with which you could be charged. You specifically asked us to "please tell me how if a cop pulls up on you in the act of sex, they can charge you with something that will stick if you and the girl keep quiet." Your response -- an ad hominem attack -- is a very nice way of avoiding the actual point that that's precisely what Civ2k's response did.

Your comments regarding people's reading comprehension are most definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black -- there's certainly been plenty of "taking things out of context" and rambling for several paragraphs from you. How about showing the same care you complain you're not getting? Not to mention that the clarity of your posts may well be evident to you, but they don't necessarily come through to the rest of the world that way.

For example, when you say the issue of incriminating ourselves on this forum is "the real big question to pose" you give it a very different urgency than simply mentioning it COULD happen -- you say, as well, that it's "only logical to conclude that LE could very easily obtain our IP address" (which I disagree with, as it glosses over an awful lot of issues such as jurisdiction.) There's more than simply the specific words you choose -- there's also the tone of your post to be considered, and the tone of that particular post with all its exclamation points can best be described as alarmed or alarmist as opposed to being theoretical musing.

I suggest while we're all out brushing up on our reading comprehension you spend some time brushing up on your compositional skills. Then we can all be one big happy.

Besides, why should we care to read your posts closely when, as you so often remind us, they're just made up bullshit?

Civ2000
01-16-04, 02:34
GT, I'm sorry I didn't go back and read your last four posts to find that one sentence about indecent exposure. I was reading your last post where you said:

3. People, including LE can assume all they want, we all judge others, its human nature, but again, please tell me how if a cop pulls up on you in the act of sex, they can charge you with something that will stick if you and the girl keep quiet???? EXPLAIN PLEASE?!? Sure they can fully assume they know what you were up to, but once again, assumptions are not evidence! Unless you or here admit she was paid, they have no choice to let you go! Now if she was in violation of being out, had a warrant, or was violating other terms from prior charges, then indeed she might get taken in.

And I responded they can charge you with indecent exposure/lewd conduct. Obviously you forgot what you previously wrote also, hence question #3. You said EXPLAIN PLEASE how they can charge you with something that will stick if you don't say anything when they catch you in the act of sex. I say easily. Just not necessarily for solicitation. And no, they don't have to let you go.

I would like to add a disclaimer to what I said in a recent post about telling the officer the SW is your girlfriend. This can backfire easily. They separate the two of you and ask questions that a couple would know about each other, e. g. middle name, employer, address, where you met, what you did that night, etc. It doesn't take but a minute to figure out if you're lying or not. I have used this excuse before and it's worked but keep it simple. Tell them you just met her. My favorite is I met her yesterday at an AA meeting. That way you can't be expected to know too much about each other.

GT, If you can't give us the name of the software, can you at least tell us why not? You respond to everything else but you act like you never hear us when we ask you this question. This is a test to see if you are actually reading this post: Name That Software!!!

Civ2K

Civ2000
01-16-04, 03:04
"This is why about every post I mention that everything I post here is basically made up. And seriously it is!"

We know GT, we KNOW!

As I see it (and I'm not directly responding to your post GT) is that we are in no danger here from LE. Admitting to a crime is not grounds for prosecution. There needs to be proof. Then LE would have to supeona our IP addresses and track us down. Then they would need to track down a SW who is using a street name and get her to confess that she was engaged in prostitution. They would have to prove she was working that night and that you indeed picked her up and that sex occurred and that money was exchanged. And they have to prove that you weren't just BS'ing us all. Then they would have to take all this to the prosecutor and prove it in court. And the SW would have to show up in court. HIGHLY Unlikely. Adding a disclaimer that you're making it up does nothing to help you. If they are battering rammming your door, then you can say it was made up.

All this for a hundred dollar fine. Right. That's why they do sting operations, because they can always catch 15 or 20 morons in a couple of hours for about a kazillion dollars cheaper.

One point I agree on is if you were say comitting armed bank robbery, or some other serious crime, I would not admit it on this board or anywhere else for that matter. But I don't see mongers doing that here. It's all about common sense.

Civ2K

RX-7
01-17-04, 19:29
In reguards to posts on this board, a couple of other things to keep in mind....

Where exactly is this forum located? they would have to file that request for the supina (sp?) in that country/state/province/terrirtory, THEN have to know your IP so they could match your posts to you (again requiring yet an other supina)

THEN, waste dozens of billable man hours sifting through the millions of lines of info just to find your posts on a given day and then match those to any incrimidating evidence that they have to build a case.

The far more easier way to go about this.... Get a court order to sieze your comp, sift through your cache memory (and remember, just cause you clear your cache, doesn't mean it's gone!!) find the sites you visit and your log-on ID and then use that to search out posts...


And as for the speeding ticket issue, a word of advice for ppl who speed in Canada, Don't rely on the cop not showing up as the only reason why not to pay! A ticket in Canada is essentually a forced guilty plea with a fine. You are found guilty of something by the cop and he levies the provincial fine on you ($175 in my province) You CAN appeal this by making a court case and pleading your case to a judge, but by doing so you are removing the charge, the offense, and the fine from a sumary plea to that of the courts whims. IF that cop shos up, and all you have to say in your defence is "I was hoping that he wouldn't show" you can be in big trouble. I have heard of traffic fines going from $175 to $500, from paying a ticket to 60 days in lock up, to even losing the privledge to drive for 5 years!

All in all, I'd have to say be nice and respectfull to the cop. In the end, you lose nothing and at worst gain nothing. Be a jerk, in the end, you gain nothing, and lose everything.

Ask CJ.... How many times did you have some bozo on a simple traffic infraction that was a walk in the park, but the guy was a jerk so you decided to do an on the spot vechile inspection just to delay him longer and drive up the fines? It's happened to me for being a jerk, it can happen to you too.


Also, adding a disclaimer to a post is kinda like walking into an airport and yelling out "BOMB!!!!!!! just joking!" you're still in a world of hurt and in deep shit. Disclaimers are great for civil suits as I understand it (being as I am not an american and can't have a civil suit filed against me anyways with out a felony charge) but in a Felony, the disclaimer means nothing, except to dig deeper to see what's under the surface and see if there is somthing nastier to charge you with!

RX-7
01-17-04, 19:40
As for the US charging citizens for out of country mongering. that's a hard one. I know from new reports that the US has a law in place to do so, but I believe that was inplace for sex with minors. Also, I don't see how they could really inforce it, unless you were caught in the other country and charged there. After all, it's not like you have a huge sign over your head that says "I just had sex for cash in a other country!" Also, I don;t see how the US could charge you for sex with a (US) minor IF the woman was of legal age in her country. After all, if no crime has been committed in the forien (miss-spelled I know...) country, how can they charge you in the US.


Mind you, it's been my experience that the US does as it damn well pleases, reguardless of the sovereign rights and laws of other countries. (not meant to flame US citizens... just my POV)

Country John
01-17-04, 21:09
Hello All,

Being a class "A" asshole doesn't always guarantee a bad time with the LEO but it's probably safe to say that 99.9% of the time you shall be duly shat upon and you deserve it. I personally have many incidents wherein Adam Henry got nailed for being an Adam Henry when if he had just tried being a regular human being he would have been treated like one.

Here's an experiment GT: Go into the nearest McDonalds, walk up to the order clerk, and (while being a class "A" Adam Henry) order your big mac. Note the responses and the manner in which you are treated. Any different from the nice guys? {Insert Your Answer Here.}

Now explain why cops should treat you differently?

Gt has demonstrated that his posts are not to be believed. He has lied, refused to post the names of the multiple aliases I'm "using" and also refuses to name the software he "used" to catch my "Other ID's." The guy is a wanker-straight up. The best thing he could do is just move on to a "chat line" or some other forum. If he does have useful information to post it is hidden deep within his lies and falsehoods -you just can't trust him. I understand this and everyone else seems to be coming around as well.

So GT, admit you lied and restore some credibility, in the meantime I for one will pay little attention to his posts.

Canada (where I am from originally) is very different from the USA in terms of law enforcement. In Canada, constables have a great deal of power and they can go a long way before being held accountable for mis-deeds (although they are held accountable when warranted, the parameters are much wider in Canada). The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (who are very well trained and are to be respected) truly have intense enforcement powers. One being the "Writ Of Assistance" under the Criminal Code of Canada which means they can go anywhere, anytime (including your bedroom) if they believe a crime has been committed, is in progress or to preserve evidence. In Canada, law enforcement is a much more closed society than here in the US. You do not fuck with the RCMP, ever.

When you learn that freedom can only exist within barriers, you'll understand why the oness is on you to do what you need to do to keep from getting caught. It is possible, it is do-able, it can be achieved but not if you can't even post a coherent message on this board.

We know that it is a fact that mongering in the USA is illegal. We know that the cops are responsible for enforcing the laws, we know that we monger anyway and we know that the cops enforce the law anyway. What we NEED TO GET STRAIGHT is our tactics. LE get's us when we are exposed. LE trys to expose us with their tactics. What counter measures can you develop to protect yourself? You win some and you will lose some, just like the cops. The cops take their hit when they lose, so will you so it's fair game mate.

I would not get into a flaming session with GT (or even Poki) because his purpose is not to arrive at a mutual understanding but rather to refuse to be wrong in an ongoing arguementative flaming session filled with lies.

You are not dealing with a legit member. Just blah blah blah blah blah. Remember that.

Anyone who says "all cops are bad" or uses generalities in that way obviously is a victim of his own fixed ideas, his inability to be wrong, and unwillingness to accept the reality of a situation. How can you have an intelligent arguement with someone like that? You can't. So Don't try.

I guess as soon as he regains some credibility I'll read hs posts again but until then it's just blah blah blaqh blah. Mindless dribble.

Civ2k is right on with his tactic. There are peole here who have something meaningful to say.

Be Safe and BE NICE

Country John

Country John
01-17-04, 21:15
Absent international agreements, the US will not persue you for mongering in Mexico. Certain laws regarding sex with minors will be the exception to this rule as well as capital crimes like murder etc. (You can't off someone in Mexico and then flee to the USA to escape prosecution.) The extradition laws come into play here.

The unique thing about sex with a minor is that it's a crime for which you can be arrested in the USA after you return to the USA by USA authorities.

You can't be arrested by the USA authorities for p4p in Mexico.

Be Safe and BE NICE

Country John

Skinless
01-17-04, 22:20
Speaking about bum raps: why all the negativity to pimps? Some of the nicest people I know have been pimps and they help keep the ladies on the straight and narrow. maybe a pimp is merely a wholesale provider without a shop front?

GettingTang
01-17-04, 23:27
personally, I view a pimp as the lowest of the low! I can't fathom any way lower to make money then on the back of a woman who is selling her body for sex! It's disgusting! Lower then drug dealers, in my opinion! Most of these guys seriously need a good old fashioned ass whipping!

You can sugar coat it any way you like, but these people are sick!

GETTINGTANG~!

Civ2000
01-18-04, 00:06
I have to agree wholeheartedly with GT here. I would put a pimp in the same category with rapists and child molesters. A pimp is usually a guy who is too lazy or stupid to make his own money and has to rely on a woman to make it for him. Sure they help keep the ladies on the straight and narrow by beating them up if they try to leave the profession or don't bring in enough money. They are liars and cowards if you ask me. Personally I don't think Skinless was being serious; rather trying to start a lively discussion.

Civ2K

Skinless
01-18-04, 02:12
So the guys who comfort the lady after you guys CIM, bang her up the butt, 3 hole her, practise your fetishes on her, are the lowest of the low? What about guys who own brothels and make them fuck 20-30 guys a day? Here in Tokyo, the yakuza take 2,000 yen (about $20 a day) from Japanese sws and about 5,000 from non Japanese. The minimum a bonk goes for is 7,000 yen. Sure small time pimps might not be nice but they are renting out the only marketable assets they have. And the women don't mind.

GettingTang
01-18-04, 04:03
Skinless, you're point of argument has no basis. These women do not need a pimp to market and sell what they have got! If they sell it and we buy it, this does not even compare and cannot be at the same level of a pimp. A pimp lives and steals from these girls. He is so much of a looser that he has to resort to living off of a female who sells her body to survive! Most all pimp's tools of their trade consist of: control, domination and using fear to get the girls to do as they say. Some even resort to outright kidnapping, assault, raping, beating, drug addicting the girls, threatening their family and or children and yes even killing. These people are worse then the cronies who lead Saddam's regime!


If anyone is "making" a girl work for sex, he is a pig! He is a criminal, scum of the earth! Weather it be in a brothel or being a pimp makes no difference. If the girl so chooses to work in a brothel, and can come and go at free will then this is different. If she is not forced to do anything she does not chose, this is different

You said the women don't mind? Are you for real here?

Skinless, you really need to rethink your stance on this one!

GETTINGTANG~!

Pokey
01-19-04, 06:08
CJ, you keep talking about how we as Monger's have get straight our tactics, because the cops change their tactics to catch us exposed. I just don't understand you sometimes.

I just don't think its all that complicated to pick up an SW and have sex in your car, if that what you like to do. It has been my experience most SW's don't like to be busted having sex in cars.
Some of the methods SW's use to not get caught are, parking far away from the cruising area; parking in a way that you can see see an oncoming car 1/4 mile away, taking off only one pants leg, and pulling up her shirt, head down BJ while driving, makings lots of turns to shake off tails. The same methods have been going on for years. Please tell me what changed excepts for tough unfair laws.( what tactics would you change?)

You know from my earlier post that I don't want prostitution near where I live, and still feel it should still be illegal to a certain extent. I believe prostitution, at least to the "John" should be treated like a white collar crime, for example the way they treat firms and individuals on wallstreet. When they do something wrong, they usually have to pay a small fine, but don't have to admit guilt or wrongdoing.

Just a little side note. I'm a little upset at how to goverment is treating Andrew Fastow, CFO of Enron, and his wife. I like the rest of the country hated what Enron did with the Energy scandal.
I too wanted heads to roll, but they just went too far just like they always do, and will do to even mongers like the rest of us.

In order to get Fastow to accept the 10 year prison sentence, they went after his wife and kids. They got his wife for filing a false tax return, if they both fought the charge and lost, they would lose their kids.

The goverment just goes too far.

GettingTang
01-19-04, 08:06
Hey Pokey,
Great post, I agree with almost everything you said except one part. Fastow! This is a man who was behind the scheme that stole tens of million of dollars from everyday common working American citizens. He stole about $6000 of my money. I truly hope this man gets a cell with a big slimy guy named Bubba! He deserves it! Comparing what he did to a little mongering is not right. He knew what would happen and did it anyhow. These thieves on wall street all need to do hard time! WorldCom is next! I have no pity on any of them.

You need to look into the eyes of all the million of blue collar hard working Americans who bought into the idea of a decent retirement someday and these suit wearing better then you and I thieves, stole their dreams! All in the name of pure and absolute GREED!

Personally, I hope the rott in jail!

There I vented and feel better, lol!

GETTINGTANG~!

Joe Zop
01-19-04, 09:42
Amen GT on Fastow, and on both of them. We're talking about a couple of people who were already rich (Lea Fastow is an heiress)getting greedy and making themselves richer. They will still be rich after both are out of prison -- ooh, they have to give up their vacation homes in Vermont and on the Gulf Coast, and the new $3.3 mil mansion they were building with stolen money, how tragic. She is far from blameless in this, as not only as assistant Enron treasurer but in her direct actions. The truth is that the government went extremely easy on her (Why do you think the judge held up the deal? Because it was too soft!) and is going easy on Fastow only because they think it gets them Kenneth Lay and others. Her plea makes it sound like she didn't do much and was some sort of unwitting schub -- the truth is that's quite far from the case.

Putting prostitution in the same category as people who destroy a company and steal millions of dollars, leaving thousands of people without jobs or pensions, not to mention lost savings, is an insult to hookers and mongers. In my opinion the government didn't go far enough with these two, though I understand why the deal was made. White collar crime is not victimless crime and the problem is that white collar criminals aren't treated harshly enough. I've far more sympathy for junkies, who mostly ruin themselves, than I do for those who embezzle, bribe, or defraud, who steal from and ruin the lives of others. People get hurt by all those things as much or more than by someone who steals their car or wallet. That's far, far, different category than paying to get a blowjob, and I resent being lumped in with such scum.

Pussey Lover
01-19-04, 13:55
Country John!

All hooker's must agree to that: There's nothing wrong with having sex in a car or in a hotel. A man who asking a woman to have sex, is thet sem than a man who asking a mechanic to fix a car. if the man will pay for the mechanic so the joon shld pay for a SW
what kind of rights does LE have to control my sexual behavior?

Cops would better serve the public if they focused on crime's like murders, bank robbers, and rapists, and leave all man and girl's who is doing sex in a car or hoel alone.

Be Safe and BE NICE?

If the cops wanna "Be Safe" and wanna meke safe all nice decent man, the she should "BE NICE" to all hooker's!

Her555

Pokey
01-19-04, 17:28
JZ, get off your high horse before you fall. You seem a little elitist to me, I can't imagine you cruising in a car looking for SW's or even speeding in your car.

Now I didn't lump mongers and white collars criminals in the same boat. I was merely saying that mongers should not have to admit guilt or admission of wrongdoing if caugh with a prostitute. In other words they should get a slap on the wrist just like people get on wallstreet.

My post regarding Enron, lets see if I can dig myself out of the hole I put myself in.
JZ, regarding Fastow, I agree he should do jail time, for his crime against shareholders etc, but I also believe the Justice Department should fight fair get him on the merits of the case. They unfairly went after his wife and kids. She was only an assistant treasurer, if she wasn't his wife, they would have never went after her. Ten years is a lot of years, after all Milliken, and Boesky only served two years, previous to this almost no one went to jail.

Hey, Im sorry people lost their jobs and pensions, but Fastow, wasn't alone, and Im not just talking about Kenny Boy, and Skilling either.

The White House knew Enron was going to collapse but did nothing to stop it, nor warn the shareholders about it. The VP Cheney, with Enrons helped shape the country energy policy.
There are lots of reason why Enron failed, besides Fastow making side bets for himself.
One, De-regulation, they now had to compete in the market place.
Two, derivative contracts, options, and have to mark to the market accounting. Derivatives are very risky.
Three, Special purpose entity(SPE) They had to keep debt off the balance sheets in order to obtain a favorable rating.( this is why they hired Fastow)
Four, the goverment, because of big donations, allowed firms like Arthur Anderson, to both audit, and consult, with firms. This created a conflict of interest.

GT, now you can blame Bush for allowing illegal aliens in this country ( Immigration proposal), and for standing by and letting you lose $6000, because he didn't want to be linked to the scandal.( Kenny gave money to Bush big time.)

PsyberZombie
01-19-04, 18:32
*Hee! Hee!* I just *Love* these attempts to Out·Law the World's Oldest Profession =

Ireland to propose EU-wide ban on paying for sex

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Ireland, current president of the European Union, said Monday it would propose a ban on paying for sex throughout the EU but held out little hope of agreement among the 15-nation bloc.

"(It) has not been discussed in any meaningful way at European level yet, but certainly it is something which will have to be considered during the Irish presidency," Willie O'Dea, minister of state at the Irish Department of Justice, told reporters.

O'Dea was responding to questions from reporters about a report on the multibillion dollar sex industry drawn up by Swedish European Parliament member Marianne Eriksson, which suggested a ban on paying for sex. Sweden is the only EU state where it is illegal to pay for sex.

"I would envisage that it is one of those controversial proposals where it will be difficult to find common ground, but I certainly think it should be put up for discussion," O'Dea said.

Eriksson's report, prepared for debate in the European assembly, urged a crackdown on the sex industry by removing from stock exchanges firms peddling pornography and by restricting obscene e-mails.

The report said the Internet had become an outlet for violent images of rape, child molestation, bestiality and necrophilia.

Of the $450 million European Internet users spent on the Web in 2001, 70 percent went to various porn sites, the report said.

"We are faced with a very wealthy and powerful industry, one of the richest in the world, which is quoted on several stock exchanges," Eriksson said.


ACCOUNTABLE


She recommended that the EU should ban companies such as German sex shop chain Beate Uhse Ag and Sweden's Private Media Group Inc., from being listed.

Reacting to the report, a spokeswoman for Private Media Group said being listed meant it was more accountable and regulators had greater control of the company.

"Banning or trying to build barriers won't necessarily enable a greater control over the industry. There is an enhanced risk of pushing it underground," said spokeswoman Alex Moore.

Eriksson wanted more action to stop unsolicited e-mails and television advertising selling sex, and backed studies into men's behavior to establish sex education programs.

Eriksson's report coincided with a hearing in Brussels on the sex industry involving European lawmakers, experts and women's rights groups.

Professor Janice Raymond from the University of Massachusetts, told the hearing how the industry had gained mainstream acceptance.

"Pornography is called 'erotica', prostitution is renamed as 'sex work'...and lap dancing or sex clubs are called 'gentlemen's entertainment,"' said Raymond, co-executive director of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women.

Raymond criticized EU states for failing to impose bans on buying sex from prostitutes.

She gave as an example the Netherlands where she said legalizing prostitution had led to a 25 percent increase of the local sex industry.


© Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd. Yeah, Right

01/19/2004 14:39

RTR

Joe Zop
01-19-04, 20:10
Well, Pokey, I've stated before that while I don't believe in having prostitution in general being criminalized, I don't cruise for SWs because if I wouldn't care to have that in my neighborhood I don't figure I should be in support of it being in someone else's. If not going after SWs makes me an elitist, well I guess that's the case, and I hope they all camp outside of your home so you can cruise them without getting out of your pajamas. (Not going after SWs sure doesn't keep me from frequenting sex workers.) As far as speeding, hah, you'd have to catch me to check -- it's one of my truly ingrained bad habits, and it's a lucky thing I've got a good sense of where speed traps lie or I'd long ago have had my license revoked.

You're just as good at making assumptions and being on a high horse as you accuse me of -- and the majority of my posts do not, unlike yours, spend time attacking the personality traits of other posters. You don't like my position, fine, argue it's merits or lack thereof -- but screw you if you think you know me in the least because I disagree with something you said. I disagreed with you, I didn't say that I think you're clearly an idiot with anger problems who probably has a dick the size of a microbe, because I don't know anything of the sort to necessarily be true. And it's you, who seem to think that this guy is getting a rough deal by spending ten years in jail just because he ripped off 45 million dollars in a single deal, who sounds like an elitist to me: bet you wouldn't say the same thing about a burglar who came into your house and stole all your shit.

That white collar criminals in the past didn't do much if any prison time simply shows what a screwed-up system it is -- both Boesky and Milkin should still be in there, as far as I'm concerned, and Fastow should be getting a year for each million he took. I've got utterly no sympathy for either of the Fastows -- she's far dirtier than you describe, and five months in a playpen is a slap on the wrist for her. She's admitted to diverting checks so their accountant wouldn't see them, and she was not only an ex-assistant treasurer at Enron, she was a primany and principally involved figure in the "investment partnerships" her husband created, and personally got money from Fastow's ex-aide Michael Kopper, who kicked back money to both Fastows in return for a hefty "nuisance fee" settlement in one of their scams. The only reason either of them is pleading at all is because they've been dead-solid nailed, which makes them useful for getting to other people.

And as far as the government fighting fair, spare me! Next you're gonna want me to feel sorry for Ken Lay's wife putting excess belongings up for sale in a thrift shop because they had to sell their spare mansions. So Fastow's kids have to spend a month or two with their rich grandparents at worst -- I haven't heard any hand-wringing about that happening to other women who end up in jail, including prostitutes who people here have banged.

I've more sympathy to Skinless' pimps than these people -- at least most pimps take advantage of people who agree to it, stupid as that may be.

Sainter
01-20-04, 06:33
Pokey, there was no need to take a swing at JZ just because his views differ from yours. If any one should get off their high horse it should be you. Errr, make that a high mule.

Well said JZ.

Pokey
01-21-04, 01:09
JuiceSpike says:

"Great experience. I got what I wanted. Sure, I lied and made her believe I would want more than just sex with her. It worked for 1 day and then she was smart enough to know better. Pretty girl. A player. The one thing that really convince her about staying with me was that I told her that I would take care of her, I was not specific but did tell her that if she did not get a job not to worry.

Find, fuck and forget. I turned the tables around and got what I wanted. Short time. Free."
____________________________________________________
Sainter says:

"I usually see eye to eye with you guys on most things. However, this one time I don't. Juice, I think what you do is highly immoral."
___________________________________________________

Joe Zops says:

"It's unnecessary to lie to women, and demeaning not to them but to me."
____________________________________________________
Skinless, says to JT, "Mind you the scarf around the neck is a lit scary but hey..."
___________________________________________________


Sainter, I was reviewing the Thailand section to see if I wanted to waste my time and respond to you. I will!

Sainter, you are a "winnie" for taking JuiceSpike to task for lying to girl in Thailand ( not a pro) just to go to bed with her. You too JT, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. ( its demeaning to you JT??)

Guys, I could go into a long augument on why you are wrong for attacking poor JuiceSpike, but I feel just by calling you guys winnies, says it all and saves time.

I have to admit, I do flame a little, but only a little. I feel it sometimes adds spice and favor to a discussion. I usually follow up any flame I made with a supporting augument.

Opps I have to go...I'll finish this later.

Well, I had to take a little break,( 1 hour) and you guys already response to my post, how rude, so I guess I won't finish my post. Just pass the " Grey Poupon" I'm done!

Sainter
01-21-04, 01:23
Pokey,

I'm unfamiliar with the term "winnie". I'm assuming you're calling me a soft crybaby. Well, if that's your view, then so be it. I'm just a little dissapointed that I'm not allowed to have a different view to Juice without getting a tongue lashing. After all that section was meant to be about our opinions.

Regarding the morality of his actions, well hey I did say in my later posts that he is better qualified to deal with a TG than me. I'm just saying that there's no need to lie and give someone false hope just to get them into bed.

Pokey, I really hope we can have a honest discussion about this without having to resort to namecalling as has happened on the Thai site.

Cheers.

Civ2000
01-21-04, 02:02
Her555, You ask, what right does LE have to control your sexual behavior? You say it should be okay to have sex in your car and LE should leave you alone. Here's the problem with that. For whatever reason prostitution and having sex in cars is illegal in the United States. Like it or not the police have the responsibility to enforce all our laws; not just some of them. In a country such as ours, if the overwhelming majority of folks wanted prostitution legal, they would simply have to get enough signatures to put it on the ballot and vote it into law.

Unfortunately this is not the case. People don't seem to want it legalized. Having sex in cars is fine, unless they park in front of your house and your kids see them. Having sex in cars is fine until your two-year-old carries into the house a used condom or syringe a prostitute tossed into your yard. Picking up prostitutes is fine until your sixteen-year-old is too afraid to catch the bus because older men in cars stop and try to get her to get in. Also, the drugs, gang activity, pimps, violence, etc that usually go along when street prostitution gets out of hand. Try getting the voters of the city of Seattle to decide which one of their neighborhoods to allow men and prostitutes to have sex in their cars.

I think we as mongers have responsibilities. We don't carelessly discard condoms. We don't try to pick up a gal we're not positive is a hooker, etc. The cops are really doing what the public in large part want them to do. My main problem with the cops has been their arrogant and elitest attitudes and the fact that they enjoy busting mongers so much and the pleasure they get out of taking someone's car. But not the fact that they enforce the laws of our society.

I think legalizing brothels might be another matter altogether and I think there should be some sort of legalized prostitution. I would even like to see certain areas (say industrial areas) where SW's are tolerated. But the fact is that every time someone has tryed a initiative to legalize or decriminalize prostitution here, it gets soundly defeated.

We Americans, though we hate to admit it, are real puritans compared to the rest of the world when it comes to sex. They did a study once with Danish and American youngsters. The two groups of kids got off a plane where there was a nude statue. The American kids giggled, acted embarrassed, pointed, laughed, made jokes, etc. The Danish kids gave it a quick glance and didn't give it a second thought. A lot of Americans are conditioned to believe that sex is somehow bad or dirty and should be done in a dark bedroom under the covers. Certainly not the members of this great board however.

Civ2K

Joe Zop
01-21-04, 02:31
You know, Pokey, you can blow it out of one of your orifices -- you want to join the discussion there in the Thailand section, fine, but it's off-topic here, and I made my meanings and position quite clear within the context of my posts there. You, as usual, can't distinguish the difference between having a discussion about approach and attacking someone. Juice is an absolutely great poster, and I've repeatedly said so far longer than you've been on this board, during which period of time he and I have both agreed and disagreed on a variety of things, but that doesn't mean I won't speak up when I disagree with him.

Unlike you, who seem to think that goose-stepping alongside of someone else is the only way to show loyalty and honor, I believe the true measure of demonstrating intellectual regard is to feel safe in disagreeing with people you like and respect.

It's you, who regularly attacks the man and not the thoughts, who ought to be ashamed. I've seen plenty of flames from you but far, far less in terms of supporting arguments. (There were certainly none in your last post.)

And well said, as usual, Civ2000.

Plugger
01-21-04, 09:18
Pokey,

The next time you want to poke your nose where it doesn't belong, make sure that you at least bring the discussion into the right section. What a joke!

Joe Zop
01-21-04, 16:25
"Well, I had to take a little break,( 1 hour) and you guys already response to my post, how rude" Rude is calling people out, pissing on them, and then walking away. Utter gall is complaining that you've returned, unzipped, and they didn't wait for you to finish what you were doing.

Pussey Lover
01-21-04, 16:57
Dear CIV2000,

I am now in the board, but I like the way you responed, Thank You.

But CIV2000, you put words in my report and meke it sound like you have to dsagree wite me. not al all.

All I am saying is against COUNTRY JOHN! Who in my opinion deserve to been banned from this great board !because he is a lover for or enemy, the LE.

My point is: If someone asks if you've hed sex with a girl, remember: tell him what Nancy Reagan says; just say no.

Understand. the LE will do evry ting to put you out from the street. and even to put you in jail. If they have enough proof to charge you then they will, if they don't, do not give it for the LE. and like you said in your report: "My main problem with the cops has been their arrogant and elitest attitudes and the fact that they enjoy busting mongers so much and the pleasure they get out of taking someone's car."

CIV2000, can you tell me why you are so angry?

WHO SAID: Prostitution and having sex in cars is illegal in the United States.

MY POINT: The police should handle that like a speeding ticket, or like a summons, period. But thie not in our case.

WHO SAID: If a hooker park in front of my house and my kids see them.

MY POINT: So what ? Sex is moral. If sex is immoral then life itself is immoral. If you believe that having sex isn't moral, then go ahead and believe it. That's my choice and it's up to me to make that choice.

WHO SAID: If my two-year-old carries into the house a used condom or syringe a prostitute tossed into your yard.

MY POINT: Comman CIV2000! Did you belive thet going to hapeen. if so, jost lern the two year old. Do not do that! It is dangers!

WHO SAID: Your sixteen-year-old is too afraid to catch the bus because older men in cars stop and try to get her to get in.

MY POINT: That is racist CIV2000, and like I said in my report "cops should be focused on crime's like murders, rapists"

WHO SAID: I think we as mongers have responsibilities.

MY POINT: Sure we have, like or responsibilities to watch to eat health food, or to watch not to get a cold.

WHO SAID: A lot of Americans are conditioned to believe that sex is somehow bad or dirty and should be done in a dark bedroom under the covers.

MY POINT: That the problem from the Americans, so we as mongers, should not.

Thanks again,

Her555

P.S. Stiil I like you, honny, and I like your report in the burd "the morality of prostitution" of 1\20\04 "one would think from reading my post that I am not in favor of legalizing prostitution. I just don't know. As a monger, of course I would like to see it legal with hookers eight deep on every street corner. What monger wouldn't?"

ME TO HONNY!

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to fix dozens of simple, idiotic writing errors. In fact, this report was so bad that I can only assume that you just don't give a damn about creating extra work for me. To avoid delays in future reports, please proof-read your reports before posting them.

Please review the Forum's Posting Guidelines (http://www.wsgforum.com/postingguidelines.html) for further information.

Thanks!

GettingTang
01-21-04, 18:09
Once again I must remind you people, we are all nothing more then nameless faceless text to this forum. Attacks, whether they be of a personal nature or pertaining to what someone else wrote really are and should be meaningless. Take it with a grain of salt people. I've been attacked over on the Thai boards for mentioning things such as how much I paid for MP3 files, CDs and the girls who work the beach walk area. Those attacks turned personal in the context of forum style. However, I realized this is the make believe world and we all need to remember that.

GETTINGTANG~!

Civ2000
01-21-04, 21:07
Perhaps Jackson could start a new section entitled Flames and Personal Attacks. What do you guys think?

Civ2K

Just kidding of course.

Mangus Man
01-21-04, 23:24
Hey Civ.

Its not ONLY that LE gets pleasure out of taking people's cars, ITS ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS!

Just proves again in the USA that govt/police, its always about money.

AMERICA = FREEDOM/JUSTICE/HONESTY/INTEGRITY?

Please you must be kidding. According to Prosecutors, AND the Judges, its all routine matter of fact Standard Operating procedure for all female undercover officers to perjure themselve, offer totally 100% false testimony about what a guy really said---- AS LONG AS IT RESULTS IN GETTING YOUR MONEY. EVERY PART OF THIS CASH SUCKING OCTOPUS HAS THEIR TENTACLES STICKING TO YOUR CHECKBOOK. ITS A FREE RIDE!! GUARANTEED ENDLESS SUPPLY OF CASH, YOU THINK THEY'LL EVER GIVE IT UP, THEY MADE IT LEGIT. 100% PURE LEGAL SYSTEM OF EXTORTION. CORRUPTION SO DEEPLY ENTRENCHED, IT MAKES 3RD WORLD LOOK AMATEUR.

Female undercover officers always get paid a full 8 hour shift of overtime for these assignments, at least $240, (@ $30/hr), and they may only need to actually work 3 hours. Easy money and their ridiculous power trip.

Prosecutor, D/A, and the whole courthouse keep their top salaries, guarranteed raises, perks like new cars, retirement $$ etc., never have to worry about taxpayers complaining they get too much and can't even play fair.

Police departments/ Judges: Yeah, it doesn't matter one single bit if you're not guilty, you will pay each $500 to get your car back and get out of jail. And don't worry, you can be 100% not guilty, the judge will always believe any and every lie the female undercover says, and never believe you when you tell the truth. Only $$ talks, no truth allowed in this court!

Danish kids? I've explained to local guys in so many countries how our girl cops dress like ho's and arrest you if you talk to them. These guys always look at me in dis-belief , its not even possible for them to comprehend why this is done? I tell them that it it the job of police to keep the public safe! LOL!

EDITOR's NOTE: This report was reformatted to remove the unnecessary indents and word wraps.

Pokey
01-22-04, 16:48
JuiceSpike says:

FUCK, what is it with a bunch of didactic, self rightous, lectures types in this forum?
Stop taking this site so fucking seriously and get a fucking life. If you want moraly clean, rightous content read the classifieds ads in your home town newspaper. Wankers.
___________________________________________________

JZ, thats a rather pompous attitute telling me where I should post, and dictating WGN forum writing etiquette, isn't it? If Jackson doesn't like what I write, he can delete it, and take me off this forum, not you.

I posted JuiceSpike's Thailand comments on this forum, mearly to show, how you enjoy attacking others, oh I forgot, you only attack their position. You can call it what you will, but you clearly pissed him off, and I don't feel, he thinks of you as a great friend of his. I didn't post this in the Thailand forum, because I don't travel to that part of the world, if I did, I wouldn't have any balls left when I got back to my world. My personal rule is, I don't post where I don't travel, but everyone is free to do what they feel is right. You say, Getting Tang, likes to augue, and show how tough he is, but you are much worst, you get off on it!

I see you have a following of flunky types. What happen they can't find anyone to follow since, David Koresh, of the Branch Davidians is dead. Hey guys, JZ is not the Guru, you think he is, and he can fight his own fights; he uses words like " swords",
or he likes to think he does.

Admin
01-22-04, 17:34
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding women for sex.

Please refrain from posting personal attacks, or from engaging in discussions of subjects such as race, religion, politics, etc. except as it may specifically and directly apply to the subject of this Forum.

If you have any questions, please review the Forum's SPAM Policy at http://www.wsgforum.com/forumfaq.html#Q40

If you should observe reports that constitute or include a personal attack, DO NOT RESPOND TO THE POSTER, even if you are the subject of the attack. All you will be doing when you respond to a personal attack is ensuring that your carefully typed response will be deleted along with the original report.

Instead, simply use the "Report this post to a moderator" link at the bottom of the report to send me an email alerting me of the problem, and I will take the appropriate action, which usually means that I will remove the entire report as I have so obviously done here.

Thank You,

Jackson

Pussey Lover
01-22-04, 18:26
Mangus Man,

Your post is full of hata of this grand land America. I dsagree with you totally! Even I am not of the side from the LE and police, but still America is the best!

The following is a quote from or grat man Jackson, the provider of this bord, on 01\19\04 "You don't have to like America or Americans to be a member of this Forum, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let anyone use my Forum as a platform for expousing blatant anti-American hate speach."

And I love this roll.

Her555

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to fix dozens of simple writing errors including missing punctuation, peculiar punctuation, missing capitalization, multiple periods throughout the text, etc. To avoid delays in future reports, please proof-read your reports before posting them. Please review the Forum's Posting Guidelines (http://www.wsgforum.com/postingguidelines.html) for further information. Thanks!

JuiceSpike
01-22-04, 18:59
Oh shit... there is more in here?

For the record, I don't mind criticism and don't mind being judged. I get pissy but you already know that. But, some of us are at least reporting from the front lines while others take shots sometimes without reading posts carefully or just to stirr things up. Apologies are welcome but not saying anything in a rush in the first place is better.

juice.

Civ2000
01-22-04, 19:05
Her555,

"All I am saying is against COUNTRY JOHN! Who in my opinion deserve to been banned from this great board !because he is a lover for or enemy, the LE."

Actually LE is not the enemy. It is the lawmakers and the people like the mayor and police chief who require their officers to enforce laws that are unpopular with mongers. If the law is bad, then let's change it.

"My point is: If someone asks if you've hed sex with a girl, remember: tell him what Nancy Reagan says; just say no."

Actually it's better to say nothing than to be caught in a lie.

CIV2000, can you tell me why you are so angry?

I'm not in the least bit angry.

"WHO SAID: Prostitution and having sex in cars is illegal in the United States."

The law books in 49 out of 50 states say it is illegal.

"WHO SAID: If my two-year-old carries into the house a used condom or syringe a prostitute tossed into your yard.

MY POINT: Comman CIV2000! Did you belive thet going to hapeen. if so, jost lern the two year old. Do not do that! It is dangers!"

Happens all the time where I live Her555. If my two year old gets Hepatitis C from a dirty syringe tossed in my yard, I may not have the chance to warn him of the dangers.

"WHO SAID: Your sixteen-year-old is too afraid to catch the bus because older men in cars stop and try to get her to get in.

MY POINT: That is racist CIV2000, and like I said in my report "cops should be focused on crime's like murders, rapists"

Racist??? High school girls get hit on by mongers all the time while waiting for busses. Heck, my ex-wife used to have three or four cars stop every morning while she was waiting for the bus to work. How is this racist??

"WHO SAID: I think we as mongers have responsibilities.

MY POINT: Sure we have, like or responsibilities to watch to eat health food, or to watch not to get a cold."

Yes, we do have a responsibility as an adult and a responsible monger to make sure our activities don't negatively affect women, children, and those not involved in our activities. Tossing out condoms in residential areas is included.


And lastly, please don't call me "honny". In my country it is a phrase of endearment of a man towards his wife or girlfriend. In my country it is considered "gay" to call another man honny.

I disagree with everything in your report. Everything. Use your head and not your emotions so much when you write and you may make more sense.

Civ2K

Skinless
01-22-04, 19:07
juice: i am stalking you:)
jackson: how is life? may i suggest that the **** stuff goes in the **** opinion column you have but in which no one has posted. it is an interesting thread that should be supported.
i also support the idea of having a flame section.
you have put a lot of thought into the sections butposters wander all over the place: photos in this section, discussions in that section etc.
juice's posts were very interesting but maybe they belong in the thai women section. the flaming doesn't belong anywhere and if that goes on, you might have to change the whole ball game. in hte thai photos section, for example, there has been a whole series of posts on the under age section. all of that belonged in either the thai women section or the opinion section.

i know this post does not belong here but i odn't belong anywhere. maybe you need a skinless in sane thread?
time to crack the whip jackson!!@

Pussey Lover
01-22-04, 19:25
Angry Civ2K

Racist? I meen to say "rapists"

The following is quotes of your posts.

==================================

07-07-03 Hey, You guys (DeeUncola and Wooly) need to cut the crap. This board is for exchanging info about the hobby---not slamming each other and then posting extremely verbose defenses of oneself. I enjoy both your posts. DeeUncola is quite articulate and offers a humerous perspective of our craft. I read each one of his posts with pleasure. Wooly as well seems to be a seasoned practioner and has numerous reliable posts under his belt. Let's stick to helping each other score quality poon and cut the insults. Thanks, Civ2000

07-21-03 Seattle the idiots (cops).

09-17-03 Seattle If you get robbed you may have to wait 45 minutes for one to show up, but there's never a shortage of motorcycle cops to write you a ticket or parking enforcement to write you a ticket. And now that they get a $500 dollar diversion fee from busted Johns, now we are a target. Just wait till they start conviscating cars, they'll really be going after us. And all the while the pimps and drug dealers and other dangerous criminals will have a pass to do whatever they want.

09-18-03 Seattle Deep Throat, I have just one thing to say: Excellent job with the cops. You did us mongers proud. As for making a note about you and the SW and blah, blah, blah, they're just trying to scare you.

==================================

I still like your reports.

her555

Sainter
01-23-04, 06:39
Nah, should be Skinless in HOD thread.


Freeler still MIA?

Joe Zop
01-23-04, 11:27
Magnus Man, I actually agree with you that it's about the money in a lot of ways, though I don't agree with your legal system conspiracy theory. The courts and police generally can manage to get paid simply by enforcing regular crime; there's generally no shortage of that, and three hours of street work by female undercover officers may well result in five hours of paperwork, so it's not as though they're getting something for nothing. (Let alone that they necessarily would like or want such work -- most of the women on the force I knew absolutely hated it.)

Where it is clearly about the money is that penalties such as car seizure, fines, etc. are all about discouraging behavior by attaching financial penalties. The idea that you may forfeit your $12000 car by soliciting for a $20 bj is so ridiculous in terms of economy of scale that a majority of men will be scared off from soliciting because of it, which is precisely the intent of such policies. It's the financial equivalent of giving the death penalty for jaywalking.

I don't think there's anyone here who would argue these approaches are reasonable or supportable. Still, posts and attitudes such as the one from Her555, which basically argues for a monger's right to do whatever he pleases no matter what harm it might cause someone else, are the kind that give fuel to such idiotic financial policies.

Snake27
01-24-04, 02:33
I wonder which major US cities impound the car for prostitution ? Can anyone produce a list ? It would be useful to know. I've read that Oakland impounds upon arrest and before conviction, hence a new concept: guilty until proven innocent. I think people should fight this in court, as it is "cruel and unusual punishment" to pay an approximately 15K$ fine (typical cost of a car) for a misdemeanor and usually a first-time offense. But it may be difficult to win since it's a subjective judgement as to what the penalties should be. Also most people caught in prostitution would want to avoid the notoriety of a court battle.

Civ2000
01-24-04, 14:58
Snake27, The two areas I've heard the most about as far as impounding cars has been the Los Angles area (particularly Long Beach) and New York City/New Jersey. I'm sure there are others, and I believe if the SW has drugs on her the car can be seized by almost anyone.

I also believe the reason that more people don't fight the forfeiture laws is that is would be prohibitively expensive. Fighting the unconstitutionality of a law through several courts could conceivably cost millions. You would have to have a monger with really deep pockets to successfully challenge this law. Hopefully some organization like the ACLU will take up our cause.

Her555, I'm flattered you would take the time to reseach my past reports. I hope you learned something valuable. Hopefully one of these days you can post a report and tell us about a SW you picked up and give us some tips. I'm not knocking you here (that's against the rules) but how about a report or two about "where da hookers?"

Civ2K

Joe Zop
01-24-04, 21:39
Snake27, a quick search reveals that a partial additional list includes Cincinnati, Denver, Detroit, D.C., Lansing (MI), Long Beach, Melbourne *(FL), Miami, Fort Myers, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, St. Petersburg, Waukegan, West Palm Beach,

There are also numerous places in Canada which do the same.

It's worth noting that there was an October decision by the Florida Court of Appeals that invalidated such laws in Hollywood, FL, and calls into question those in West Palm Beach, Dania Beach, Hallandale Beach and Miamim because state law limits such seizures to felonies.

Mangus Man
01-25-04, 13:13
Hey Joe Z,

Thanks for giving thought to my rant. Yes here in Hollywood its a racket pure & simple. When you see our LE system, YOU MUST CONSIDER HOW IT ALL ADDS UP. They always get 20 to 30 guys in a shift. $500 per car, $500 for the court, and $1,500 per lawyer, THE CASH IS MORE THAN THEY CAN RESIST FOR LOW-RISK WORK.

Paperwork? They have evereything pre-filled out, they just put in your name. Perp offered cash for sex, stated $20 for oral sex. IT ABSOLUTELY MATTERS NONE WHAT YOU REALLY SAID. Oh, the tape recording was lost? Well, too bad, there goes the proof that you only asked the girl if she wanted a ride, now your only proof is gone. No not really gone, just stashed in a file somewhere. Guilty because the evidence conveniently vanished. Well then ok, just guilty of being in the wrong place, period!

Punch up the numbers, man. $62,500 a night, twice a week. Each year thats in the millions! And remember, they don't risk anything. Mongers are armed with their penis, not guns. After you're popped, you get a dozen letters in the mail offering you a lawyer. Choose the one who used to be the prosecutor! Yeah that's a smart move because he already knows the racket since HE SET IT UP in the first place. Just write him a check, $1,500, end of your problem. WHEN YOU'RE OWN LAWYER TELLS YOU HE HAS IT FIXED WITH THE COP AND JUDGE BECAUSE HE USED TO BE THE PROSECUTOR, HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT A CONSPIRACY??

Her 555.
This has nothing to do with America, these fuckers are criminals, this is legalized extortion. They lie about it in the name of public safety. Its abuse of power. At least when I'm driving with my friend in Kiev at 6:30 in the morning after he picks me up at the train station, and a cop standing in the street makes us stop, demanding $2 because we were not driving in the middle of the street, HE ADMITS THAT ITS BULLSHIT, because he just wants SOME money since he didn't have breakfast and he is hungry. We settle for $1 and he lets us go.

Mangus Man
01-25-04, 14:01
Since I forgot the absolute best fucking part of this, and no one else brought it up, I couldn't finish without mentioning the biggest absurdity of all. That's when the LE stings arrest LAWYERS, COPS, AND JUDGES!!

Oh yeah, let us not forget for a second that they are mongering out there too, just like the rest of us. They're every bit as horny as we are, and their wives aren't giving them head, so they're out cruising for blow jobs too! Or maybe in a different scenario, you recall that movie, can't remember the name, where the very respectable well-known public figure husband explains angrily why he would never put his dick in his wife's mouth, because, "Are you crazy, that's disgusting, that's the mouth that kisses my children!!" So out on the street he goes, looking for SW to get fellatio.

Anyway, of course when somebody with Official Importance gets popped, its always because he was only offereing the young lady in distress a ride to get off the street. That's how the Judge and the Luitenant got their cases dropped, because THEY were innocent. Even though the tape recording clearly could hear the Judge saying "C'mon baby, I'll give you $30, you got such pretty lips!"

OF COURSE THEY LOST THAT TAPE AT THE TRIAL! THERE'S YOUR AMERICAN JUSTICE. FAIR FIRM AND CONSISTENT.

No, I'm not bashing the USA. The system is corrupt EVERYWHERE. Stay out of trouble, and this country is wonderful, best in the world.

Are simple bribes better? A few bucks to get a foreign cop to let you go on your way, maybe yes? Very expensive bribes paid to government agencies to start a business, no. But that is the system in Russia. Monthly bribes just to stay in business, fuck no, that's the mafia's protection racket. $2,500 for offering a ride to a lying female cop dressed up to look like a broke girl out on the street? BULLSHIT! Oh I forgot, that's creative capitalism, isn't it? WHY CAN'T THEY GO ARREST SOME FUCKING CRIMINALS AND LEAVE US MONGERS ALONE? Oh, I forgot, we're easy money!

RX-7
01-25-04, 15:44
then fix it....

would cost you some money, and maybe your pride. But I know holywood has all those nice little spy shops that see the small cameras, and the micro-phones. Do your own little sting on the cops :)


but you don;t drop the tape off at the court house, you send a copy of it to every major news paper and TV station in LA. Let the people figure out what is up NOT the cops...

The biggest weapons you have against corruption is your mind and your will. the corruption only exsists cause you and the mongers of the area are unwilling to do anything to stop it. So plan ahead, get your selves organized and then lay it to them!

RX-7
01-25-04, 16:00
interesting side note on police stings and what can happen in them. in My city there has not been a police sting op for several years.... not since how the last one turned out ;)

the undercover cop was working the stroll, when a car pulled up and asked her if she needed a right. she said yes. In the car the usual exchange of info went on and and the guy memtioned that he was looking for a girl to be "friendly" for a stag party. Now the stupid undercover cop agrees! she says that she has to let her pimp know the motel and the room number and the guy agrees. So the chick (the cop) gets out of the car and goes to the waiting van filled with police and tells them they have a sweet score and all they have to do is bust into the room 5 minutes after she goes in. They all agree it sounds like a plan! So back to the car she goes and off to the hotel.

At the hotel the chick (cop) goes to the room and sees the 5 guys (more then was expected) and starts to talk price the guys just say "don't worry about it! we got you covered!" and she hums and haws and stalls....

In the mean time the idiots cops in the van get the wrong room number! and they bust into the wrong room! Scaring the ppl in that room and after a few minutes they know they made their mistake and start hunting for their "missing" girl. Eventually thery have to go down to the front office and inquire to get the right room! (all said this takes about 30 minutes!!)


Now, back in the room..... the chick puts off the deed for as long as possible, but doesn't want to "blow" her cover..... To make a longer story short, the Sting cops bust into the room and she is drinking down her protein shake and bust them all for prostitution!

Skip to the trial.... the boys plead not guilty and the crown prosicutor tries to throw the book at them UNTIL...... a video tape comes up!!! It seems one of the boys at the stag had a camcorder on and taped the ENTIRE EXCHANGE!!! since none of the boys had even mentioned paying her any sort of amount of cash and nothing was talked about for cash in the car in a confirmed way (although it was implied in both places) the judge rules that prostitution had not happened!

So, cause the cops got greedy, 5 guys get to say the fed a cop a vanilla shake and have the tape to prove it!

Joe Zop
01-25-04, 17:18
Magnus Man, while I again agree that the whole car-towing stuff is bullshit, I still just don't see how most of your stuff adds up to a big conspiracy, to be honest, as opposed to a crappy and misguided policy. Having paperwork already mostly filled out hardly seems all that surprising -- there are only so many variations on the theme, really, of how something went down, what laws were violated, and of how much was offered for what act. Fitting things into a form is what cops do for any crime, and it's a pain that's more happily taken care of quickly. Cops, lawyers, judges, etc., all get paid the same amount no matter what criminal proceeding is involved, so there's really no more incentive to bust mongers than there is to write tickets or go after dealers beyond the local policies and the political push behind them.

As far as the lawyers, I'm sorry, but that's the way business is done these days -- crimes are public record, and attorneys go after those who have been arrested regardless of the crime, as, yes, they're in it to make money. But that hardly means they're part of some big conspiracy -- that's like saying any auctioneer contacts a family after a public death notice in the hope there's an estate sale to be brokered is part of a conspiracy. Of course someone who's an ex-prosecutor is going to tout that -- his clients are going to think that's an advantage whether it is or isn't. And just because he got something "fixed" doesn't mean there's been any pay-off -- the lawyer happily kept all that -- the majority of all criminal proceedings end in a plea bargain of some kind or a case dropped because of lack of evidence. And thinking that this entire machinery's set up to help ex-prosecutors or other criminal defense lawyers make money is waay too far a stretch.

As far as the whole issue of people of influence getting off, well, gee, surprise, surprise. They can afford even more expensive lawyers who make even better arguments, and the concept that there are different rules for the rich and powerful is not going to surprise anyone. A lawyer who's paid enough can manage to get a whole lot of things suppressed or disappeared. That's an indictment of the court system in general, not as it related to prostitution.

That said, there's little question that cities are interested in income, and push police to do things that bring in money, particularly cash cows. That can be anything from writing lots of parking or speeding tickets to sending out building or health inspectors to give fines to doing seizures of cars from mongers. , Catching rapists and murderers is expensive and hell on the bottom line, and in these days of demands for services and tight budgets locales always look to maximize income however they can. But that's not the same as saying it's a corrupt system -- it's saying there's a business aspect behind it.

(BTW - bravo for your photos in the Russia section!)

And great story, RX-7 -- where did that happen? Gotta say it's rare to find a female police officer that dedicated to her job... :)

RX-7
01-25-04, 18:07
Kamloops B.C. Canada in 1996.. I was in court fighting a.... legal infraction and was waiting for my trial to come up. As with the way the system works, you sit in a queue and wait for your turn, and maybe they get to you and maybe they don't so I got to see the whole thing unfold and the video was quite impressive :) Must be comforting to the cop to know that if she ever gets tired of enforcing the laws and dodging bullets she has a promising career on the side walk.

Mangus Man
01-25-04, 20:12
Come on Joe,

Look, I'm really not looking for an argument, but until you actually see up close how they run this scam, you'll always just think its all coincidence.

The prosecutor and cops both told me flat out that lying to make their case is absolutely standard operating procedure, and a judge told me he knows they are lying under oath and will never do anything about it because that's the system. That's how it works to keep the money coming in. When it comes to LE stings, maybe that doesn't add up to a big conspiracy, ok fine, call it a little conspiracy. But either way, they all work together, under false pretenses, to rob mongers.

If their not conspiring to do it, then what the hell else do you call it?

So where do the millions of dollars go? They all get paid the same regardless? You might want to take a closer look. New offices, furniture, unmarked cars, bonuses, helicopters, planes, speedboats, on and on. Its the same with money/property confiscated from drugs. That's how they came up with their Zero Tolerance policies. That means if they find one joint on a milion dollar yacht, well now it belongs to the cops. Nice law! What belongs to you, now its mine. I have the guns, you don't , so I win !! All legal! Welcome to freedom!

The cops and judges who get busted don't get off because they can pay lawyers to get them off. They get off because they are part of their little club, their cases are dropped because the evidence dissappeared! It would be to embarassing to LE if they were guilty like the rest of the mongers, so they are let off. Nobody believes they are innocent, but that's the system.

The worst part is the ex-prosecutor. He IS THE ONE who set up the sting program for Hollywood PD, when he was the prosecutor. He knew when he left the DA's office, that he would have access to every monger who got popped. His letter say to hire him because he set up the program, and he'll get your case processed neat and clean for $2000. How can you not see that it was all set up just for this purpose. That guy gets dozens of mongers cases every single week.

He's making millions off this. A perfectly legal operation. That's the system.

Civ2000
01-26-04, 14:38
I don't really believe all that about the paperwork already being filled out. I've pulled up to several stings in my mongering career and walked away unscathed. Why? Because I follow the golden rule of mongering and don't say or do anything that can possibly incriminate me until the SW and I are driving away in my car. Now if the policewomen lied and said I offered .20 for sex when I didn't, I would have got busted. But not once, but four out of four times I drove away. And believe me you could see the decoy was extremely pissed. She tryed everything she could to get me to say something stupid. In Seattle we have an intent to solicite law, so you don't even have to offer money for sex to get busted.

I do agree with Joe that the police are in some extent, going to focus on crimes that generate revenue. Look at the huge increases in motorcycle cops and parking enforcement officers in recent years. The sole purpose of this is to increase revenue, not to prevent crime. If busting mongers is profitable then they will add that to their list.

Most cities still don't impound cars for solicitation. And the stings really don't pay off that well. For example a sting operation usually takes about twenty officers. You've got the decoys; the officers stationed in the room; the officers in their cars ready to roll; lookouts; etc. A lot of jurisdicitions find it hard to use the same decoys time after time and usually run out of female officers to use. They often import female officers from neighboring jurisdictions to help out. And most of the sting operations are done on overtime. So you've got twenty officers getting paid $37.00 an hour for eight hours--sting operation plus paperwork plus processing. Add in the court costs and everything else a typical sting will cost ten thousand dollars. Now an average sting nets about 10 mongers who generally for a first offense pay about a hundred dollar fine. Where I live the merchants association begs the police to do regular stings but the police say it costs just too much money to do more than several full scale stings a year. And we have a five hundred dollar pre-trial deversion fee that johns pay.

Even in jurisdictions that do conviscate vehicles, there are very few that impound them permanently. You do have to pay hefty storage fees for thirty days or so but most of that money goes to the towing companies. The police would be way ahead to focus on more traffic tickets and parking. The average motorcycle cop generates a couple of thousands of dollars (net) a day.

So, why then do the cops do sting operations. In my city (in large part) because thats what the citizens ask for. The merchants are constantly asking for it; the residents in the nice neighborhoods adjacent to Aurora are constantly asking for it; in town hallss and community meetings they are begging for it. Why? Is it because we're a bunch of uptight religious wackos here in Seattle who don't want anyone to enjoy themselves. No, actually its a very liberal city. So why then?

I think its because there are untold numbers of Her555's out there. Guys who think that tossing a condom in front of someone's house is okay and who thinks it is the toddlers fault if he picks it up in the yard. A lot of it is about responsibility. I park where I'm not going to be seen. The last SW that tossed a condom out of my car I made get out and pick it up. I make sure my activities don't negatively impact others. I parked in a spot once and the ground was littered with dozens of condoms. It used to be a great place to park. Now, guess what? The police watch that area like hawks. Can anyone blame the average citizen for wanting our cars impounded when they read Her555 say that the parents should warn the toddler not to pick up used condoms and syringes they might find in the parking strip in front of their houses? It's not the mongers fault, it's the parents fault. Yeah, right.

Thanks for letting me share my opinions.

Civ2K

Joe Zop
01-26-04, 16:19
Excellently said, Civ2000 -- there's simply no excuse for mongers not taking control of the impact they can have on a community. To complain that things aren't fair and then basically eschew all responsibility for helping things get that way is nothing but a cop-out. Why should I, as resident, have to put up with people cruising and trashing my neighborhood just because they want to get laid? No surprise at all that people call for stings, for impounds, for any kind of action that will make their environment be a halfway reasonable one.

Mangus Man, obviously I'm not going to convince you that it could be anything other than a conspiracy, and vice versa. If the situation where you live is truly as bad as you say and everyone's just going to lie and cheat to nail you regardless of the truth (and sorry if that's the case, but it's the exception as opposed to the rule) then RX-7's earlier idea of running your own sting is dead-on. (With the colorful recent example as a nice reminder that it can work.) Apparently I should be pushing my local LE to adopt similar policies, because the "new offices, furniture, unmarked cars, bonuses, helicopters, planes, speedboats, on and on" aren't in evidence in any of the places I've lived, and I'd sure like to have my millages lowered.

As I said before, obviously such seizure approaches are aimed at discouraging behavior by imposing financial penalty, and that's an approach that's been upheld at the Supreme Court level. The laws didn't come into effect so boats could be seized because someone had a joint -- they were aimed at grabbing the fruits of large criminal enterprises. People who engage in law-breaking activities (and mongering is that, regardless of the fact that none of us believe it should be) under the threat of such seizures know the risks they're taking.

The bottom line in all of this is that I've not heard complaints that someone got their car snarfed when they were just out driving to pick up some milk -- it's more that the penalties are unfair, and are being unfairly applied. This may be true, but arguing that you didn't say X so they shouldn't be able to do Y when you know that you've basically done the deed at another time kind of seems like missing the point, at least to me, as it shouldn't be about trying to beat the system but to change it.

OttoGraham
01-26-04, 17:09
Originally posted by Mangus Man

The worst part is the ex-prosecutor. He IS THE ONE who set up the sting program for Hollywood PD, when he was the prosecutor. He knew when he left the DA's office, that he would have access to every monger who got popped. His letter say to hire him because he set up the program, and he'll get your case processed neat and clean for $2000. How can you not see that it was all set up just for this purpose. That guy gets dozens of mongers cases every single week

Arrest records/court charging sheets are open for public inspection in most jurisdictions. Depending on where you live, if you get booked on a DUI offense, on an assault and battery, on a drug offense, you are very likely to get form letters from a lot of attorneys offering their services. The way it sounds, this lawyer is simply practicing a specialty, representing johns. Other guys will write your will for you. Or do a real estate transaction. It doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

-Uncle Otto

OttoGraham
01-26-04, 17:12
Originally posted by Civ2000

I've pulled up to several stings in my mongering career and walked away unscathed. Why? Because I follow the golden rule of mongering and don't say or do anything that can possibly incriminate me until the SW and I are driving away in my car. Now if the policewomen lied and said I offered .20 for sex when I didn't, I would have got busted. But not once, but four out of four times I drove away. And believe me you could see the decoy was extremely pissed. She tryed everything she could to get me to say something stupid. In Seattle we have an intent to solicite law, so you don't even have to offer money for sex to get busted.


Drive-aways are not my thing, but even so, I think this is excellent advice. No cop is going to get in your car to go for a ride, but I imagine a working girl will.

-Uncle Otto

Mangus Man
01-26-04, 23:27
Guys,

I don't want or care about getting the last word in, so please somebody else follow me with something so you all don't get the wrong idea of me.

I only want to take one final, (I swear!) shot that it might get somone to see why a monger would be left with a terribly sour taste of LE, which down here might as well be called EE, for extortion enforcement. I can certainly understand its not that way in your towns. You're lucky. I'm glad for you.

Joe- I certainly was not out to buy milk that night. Should I have known better?
Shit, wait..... Can I ask instead of that, why shouldn't it be fair to, at minimum, expect a level playing field from the world's * most highly respected American System of Govt/Police/Courts? (*well, maybe before 9/11!)

In other words, when you read the arrest report, written by a public servant whose salary we all pay with our taxes that we do work to earn, you are naively shocked that it is TOTALLY lies. Your shock quickly wears off when everyone else in public service tells you the whole sting gig relies on lies to nail anyone who tries to outsmart them. Yes yes Civ2K, of course they don't need lies most of the time, because most mongers WILL slip up in a moment of weakness. For a sad example, after the most stressful week of your life, LE knows how impossibly frustrated SoFla w***** will make any monger simply trying to nut without becoming a hopelss wanker. Put that together with your beloved Gators needlessly blowing yet ANOTHER undefeated season to some shit team like Auburn on a horny Saturday night, and the next thing you know you're driving down US 1 in Hollywood. You don't even know how you got there, and suddenly one lousy fucking yellow light later that you should've run, and you're in a holding cell with 25 princes. A night like that should never happen more than once in many lifetimes, if never even at all.

On a different night a few years after, or even a few years before for that matter, in another moment, not of weakness, but of normal suspiciousness, she'll try everything to get you to slip up, but just like Civ2K, you don't slip up and she fiinally tells you to beat it cause you've pissed her off by not being stupid. Hey, so we're all not a perfect 4 out of 4. Some of us are human.

Now being a monger who always not only treats but also speaks to ladies in a proper way, you would certainly be very dissappointed to read that you are quoted as asking a total stranger standing next to your car will she take twenty bucks for a blow job and fuck for another twenty. As you recall, whenever you met a new friend in the past, as well as with this imposter, the conversation always was about needing a ride, and then an invitation to come over and hang out for a little while. NOTHING illegal about that.

All right, sure the stings are done because people in the neighborhood are fed up with the crack dealers, etc., and yes JoeZ, here in SoFla the cops do get new offices, toys, etc., and learning the hard way from experience can be expensive as hell and you'll ask yourself how could you be so dumb so many fucking times, but the best lesson in all of it is, don't get caught being in the wrong place. Because in SoFla, the stings are also done to discourage street shopping, which just coincidentally diverts more mongers to the escort service business, who, you guessed it, kick back a cut to your best friend, Officer Laura!

I am done.

Civ2000
01-27-04, 21:36
" Yes yes Civ2K, of course they don't need lies most of the time, because most mongers WILL slip up in a moment of weakness."

I humbly disagree with that Mangus. I believe that most mongers don't slip up in a moment of weakness. I think that one of the problems with sting operations is they tend to get the amateur mongers and a lot of guys who truth be told have only picked up SW's a time or two. The experienced monger usually drives away without getting caught in the sting.

The way it happened with me was that I was reading an article in the paper about ten years ago and they mentioned that the policewoman will never get into a john's car. Too dangerous. I decided then and there I would never incriminate myself until the gal was in my car. Having picked up hundreds of SW's since, I've heard the same advice from virtually everyone of them. My experience is that SW's don't like getting busted anymore than we do. When you pull up they will look around and get in your car so fast (so as not to be spotted) it'll make your head spin.

Now the four times I approached sting operations they've either approached the driver's side or opened the passenger door and just leaned in to ask "what's up"? In that case I merely asked for directions.

Anytime the SW does anything out of the ordinary, I drive off. I don't care if I've seen her get into twenty cars in the past. If she wants to waste my time and hers and make us both a target for LE by going to my side of the car -- I'm out of there.

So, yes Mangus, I am human and I make lots of mistakes, just not that one.

Civ2K

P. S. Speaking of stings and conspiracy theories, has anyone heard from Country John? I'm beginning to wonder if he got waylaid in Tijuana by GT or something. He hasn't gone a day without posting ever.

James D 2004
01-27-04, 22:16
Guys, it's not that simple to avoid being busted. For every thesis, there's always the anti-thesis. Yes, it's simple, pick up the girl, let her go into your car and drove off. The complications are too many. First is the price. Some guys want to bargain and some girls don't want to waste their time. In the ideal world, when there are plenty of girls and mongers, both parties want to settle the price before going off. If a girl drives off with you, she depends on your good will to drive her back. It really helps to have a decent car and don't look like LE. Not so long ago in Orange County where lots of LE around, I just U turned and parked to have a look at the hot SW I spotted. She ignored other attentions and walked towards me and asked me 'do you want pussy?'. Can't resist letting her in and we drove off.

Not all SW are crack ho's. Some just don't get into cars. Not so long ago in James Wood x Alvardo, Los Angeles, there are quite a few dolls at day time. Took me some time to find out that they bargain by finger waving, and the location by finger pointing. You drive into the hotel first and they walk in after you. If they don't trust you they have a body guard in the room next door.

Civ2000
01-28-04, 00:31
TallnHandsome, Yes it really is that simple to avoid being busted. I've been doing this long enough that I can tell just by looking at the girl how much I'm going to have to spend within five or ten dollars. If she doesn't agree you just drop her off where you picked her up. Usually when the girl gets in you just go around the block to negotiate. As soon as she gets in the negotiations begin. I've rarely seen a SW (even the expensive ones) not get in my car.

Now driving to the hotel with them walking in after you is one of LE's favorite tactics. You walk into her room and a bunch of vice cops charge out of the bathroom. I personally know several guys that this has happened to.

The whole point is that you may lose a couple of good SW's this way for every ten that get in your car. Too bad. There's always another gal just around the corner or the next evening, etc. I'd rather go home and have a date with my hand than go to jail. Sometimes I've seen something that is just too good looking to pass on. But I have to remind myself that the first time I ignore my own rules of mongering I might get busted.

Just for a point of reference, I've been picking up 2 or 3 SW's every week for over twenty years now with zero arrests and minimal police contact. I must be doing something right.

Civ2K

RX-7
01-28-04, 02:47
Gotta Agreed with you there Civ2k, Let her get in the car BEFORE you talk shop. Now I don;t have your lengthy experience, or as many dates (I average about one every 2 or 3 weeks, for the past 3 or 4 years.)
If she ain't willing to get into the car, the chances are it's a set up of some sort. AS for the price you pay.. I have seen ulgy ones want WAY to much, adn pretty ones want WAY to little. But, I generally have a set amount that I am willing to spend and if she is over that I simply state the truth, that I only have "x" amount. Then they usually drop the price. If they are under that amount, great.

some other simple rules to keep you safe are:

1: Never her place! you never know when the knife wielding BF is going to come out of the bathroom (if it isn't the LE) this includes thier cars, hotel rooms, houses, apartments....

2: go someplace you at least know in passing... which means, aviod dark strange allys if possible. And If you need to use an ally drive through it once first keeping an eye out for lurkers.

3: Not you home! Never bring a first (or second or third, or fourth) date back to your crib! or you may find it empty the next time you come home from work.

4: your Hotel, your room. Never rent a room for a girl, if you rent it, she is the one that leaves not you! Never trust them to turn in the key, or to not take the tv! it's your butt (at least your credit line) that's in the sling if something happens.

Now some legit girls offer these things to you, but lets face it, why take the chance.... best to spring for a room then to get yourself arrested..... or killed.

Joe Zop
01-28-04, 02:48
Mucho admiration to you for that, Civ2k. Personally, I know I'm simply not likely to be careful enough on a regular basis, which is why I avoid SWs. The risk versus reward ratio just isn't good enough for me when I can just use a service or massage place instead. I both agree with you that experienced mongers can usually do ok, as a smart monger is basically one who's very spookable, but I don't know that MM isn't right when he says most mongers will screw up. Your track record isn't necessarily the norm -- so take that as praise for your being smart about that at the same time I'm saying you may be the exception rather than the rule.

(And for what it's worth, when I was working policewomen absolutely would get into cars, as they were both miked and armed. The mikes meant you could exactly get around your method, and when the car started moving an unmarked car would follow. This was Flint, one of the nastier and more violent places around, and there was never. as far as I was aware, any incident where there was any injury to them. That said, I still think your advice on this is very good -- just not foolproof, as it depends on the methods of the force you're dealing with.)

Magnus Man, given that you're in the precise spot whose law was overturned by the Fla Supreme Court, it's probably eminently reasonable to say it sucks there. Certainly corruption does happen, and most easily and often on a local level, and your area has lots of places that have become used to drug seizures, and thus new toys.

But to extrapolate from the local to the general isn't necessarily a viable thing -- in my state right now the SWs are freezing their asses off, and both they and mongers are generally left alone because the cops don't want to freeze theirs off. Not so easy to get "Officer Laura" to parade around looking like a hooker if the most noticeable six inches she's gotta deal with are made of snow. :)

RX-7
01-28-04, 03:04
True JZ, some cops do get into cars. All depends on where you live I guess. Hence why not going to her hotel is a good idea. If she insists you can just say you changed your mind and let her go. Also (and this depends on the city) check out what is happening around you... lots of SWs for a few blocks, then nothing, then 2 or 3 girls... then lots again? Chances are those 2 or 3 are part of a sting. The real girls can smell a sting better then any monger and they don;t want any part of it... so much so that they close up shop for the night or move a few blocks away.....

Civ2000
01-28-04, 04:04
RX-7, Great advice. I agree with all four items; especially #3. One of the mistakes I made in my earlier mongering days was bringing SW's home. I never came home to an empty house, but often stuff would come up missing. And the worst: I had one over and had a pretty good date with her but didn't see her again for about eight months when she showed up at my house at 3:00 a.m. begging for money to halt her heroin withdrawl. To make matters worse my S/O was spending the night and it woke her up. To make a long story short, things between us were never quite the same after that.

My experience has been that prior to any John stings the police do a major sweep through the stroll to weed out any real working girls. I've actually had SW's tell me that the cops have told them there was going to be a reverse sting and to make themselves scarce lest they get busted. Then the monger drives around and the decoys are the only gals available.

And sure there may be policewomen who get into cars. But it's not common and reading this board for over a year now I have yet to read of a monger getting busted by a decoy who drove off with him in his vehicle. I've observed many stings in Seattle. They are often held on the west side of Aurora and if you cross to the other side you can park and watch the whole thing go down. There's a jersey barrier separating the lanes so you can sit there in relative safety and observe. I've learned a lot from that.

Also, I'll be the first to admit I've been lucky. I've seen numerous mongers pick up a SW that I was trying to pick up get pulled over immediately. That always makes one think.

Civ2K

Pokey
01-28-04, 06:19
I agree with Civ2000, picking up a SW is childs play if you know what your doing and how to spot SW's. I learned the trade where Mangus Man, hangs out, Hollywood CA. Oh, what great memories, dam I hate these new laws. I almost agree with HER555, because it was so easy to pick up nice looking SW's, but times have changed with harder drugs, aids, guns, so I think a little law and order is a good thing; besides it doesn't stop me if my intent is/was to get a SW.

Rx-7, I don't know what they do up in Canada, regarding police stings, but in the U.S. or where I am from Southern California. The undercover police women does not get in the car with the "John", the policewomen will not show you her tits. The reason, besides they have no backbone; is because its too dangerous for them. Nowadays, when cops get hurt, they get they're doctors, to say they been permanent disabled 10% or so,and they then retire at 1/2 pay for many years. A male cop will show a prostitute his dick( I saw it in Cops) but a female cop won't show her pussy or tits. If later she gets harrassed at work, she could just go to her lawyer and claim, hostile work environment.( My Sargent made me show my tits to John's, give me a million dollar settlement.) It should also be pointed out, they really don't need to get in cars to catch mongers looking for SW's, its like fish in the barrel for the cops.

I believe now the female undercover cop doesn't use a wire anymore, but just takes down notes, so if they don't have a good case, they will just embellish their story. Thats why I no longer go to police stings, and ask for directions to the police station.

TallnHansome, if a SW refuses to get in the car, or wants to bargain price; I just move on, no matter how good looking she is.
You also say, not all SW's are cracked Ho's, maybe not, but 85% are, the rest soon will be. A SW, drugs or not, have a certain look to themselves, after years of cruising you can tell. I almost never make a mistake and hit on a housewife, or student.

If you read any of my posts with Shy Sugar, a callgirl/SW in Orange County and Pomona, you will see I was suspicious of her because she didn't look like she did drugs, and she got a little upset with me. ( I miss her, someone sent me a PM that she is in trouble, but who knows.)

Civ2000, yes where is CJ, I'm getting bored, not being able to get mad at his posts then answering back. I guess someone sent GT, a rumor that his wife found out what he was doing. He also might be in a TJ jail, he said, he was going to start a letter campaign again corruption in TJ, and he doesn't believe in bribing in TJ.

James D 2004
01-28-04, 22:02
For all you guys who say picking SW is child's play, it is. But if you do it enough in different continents, it isn't.

I have to say it again. Even in LA that you guys seemed to be familiar with, not so long ago ALL the girls in James Wood x Alvardo, the everygreen LA SW point, won't go into the car with you. Of course I can't say all , but the girls who occupied the prime corner turf don't. They are rather delicate in comparison who wouldn't stand a chance if a monger rough them up. I couldn't get any of their attention even if I try to run straight into them. Any experienced guys in LA would know the finger pointing routine.

Secondly, let me say it again. Sometimes guys don't want girls to get in first. They want to bargain first. Because it's a waste of time to drive off without reaching agreement. And that the hot ones will be taken. It's not just the newbies, it's also the experienced who think that they can spot a real SW a mile away.

Civ2000
01-28-04, 22:26
I guess some guys might find it a waste of time driving off without reaching an agreement, but I'm not one of them. Driving around feeling up some nineteen-year-olds tits while she checks down my pants to make sure I'm not a cop is never a waste of time and I will never grow tired of it.

Granted I've never mongered at James Woods, but we do get the groups of young, beautiful SW's that cycle in and out of Seattle periodically, before heading off to another major city. And I've never had any problem getting them in my car. Maybe that's just the way they operate down there.

But the point is that those SW's are using the same tactics that LE use to bust us: 1) negotiating outside the car 2) pointing to a parking lot or motel and having us meet them there.

Personally I would always pass in that situation. I don't want to get busted or lose my car. If other guys would be more careful then the girls would change their tactics. I guess that is why those stings in LA work so well. It's because getting laid is more important than staying out of trouble.

I've actually witnessed stings up here where the decoy has 15 or 20 cars pull up and pull away before they are able to make a bust. Why? Because it's so well known that the SW's don't get in the car.

But of course it's each mongers choice.

Civ2K

Mangus Man
01-29-04, 08:51
Joe & Civ.

I feel a real "regional-ness" to how LE differs, that seems to dictate how operating
procedure will not be the same in SoFla v. Seattle, etc. I think that since maybe ther's more crazies in Florida, decoys here don't get into cars anymore, probably
because when they did at some point, their safety was not maintained. I can see the scenario in the past where the decoy was in a car said "I'm a cop, you're under arrest", and the crazy monger/psycho pulled out a knife or gun and killed the b**ch ! So now, they only stand next to your car where its less likely some crazy will kill her.

Also, Civ, really, you and probably anyone on this board are not the "average" monger. I think our contemporaries consider mongering more an art and a science here, because the other 24 princes I found myself with in a cell weren't likely to be able to spell their own names. Looked like someone had scraped the stuff that's under what get's scraped form the bottom of the sewer.

Sure, anyone who would've read about LE not getting in you car is the "tip-off" to drive away, but these guys definitely were not the reading types. The only thing I can say, and if you read any/all posts in the SoFla sections, you'll see there's usually more LE than SW down here in the last 4-6 years.

Back in the 1980's through around 1995, it was a completely different story in SoFla. I mean it, really! Mongering for SW back in those days was 200% different. There were incredible opportunities for 8's, 9's and 10's, and prices went anywhere from $40 to $120 for absolute 10"s. The unifying theme for these days is, THE PAST IS GONE FOREVER! SoFla is officially pronounced dead by LE. Sure you can find 3's and 4's out there, you can have 'em! I'm on my way back to East Europe for trip #11 in a few months for the 8's, 9's, and 10's. I'll send you a postcard ! Asta la vista!

RX-7
01-29-04, 16:13
You'd be surprised what you can find up here in B.C. I have seen the drugged out, The clean single moms, college student wannabes, and the high school girls wanting money for her prom dress! And I live in a town of only 90k people! Granted the druggies vastly out number all the other by a huge margin. I am lucky in a sence cause I have several gilrs that I visit almost excusively and have gotten to know quite well (heck, we exchange cards on holidays!) But then again sometimes there are new faces that show up that I just gotta try out!

Now a days, most cops up here seem to be content just to cruise the stroll or even park on it to do their paperwork in order to discourage prostitution. Or to pull over cars they think think have dealings with the workers (like they did with me a few weeks ago)

James D 2004
01-29-04, 18:26
Just some food for thought - why serial killers are so successful if they pick only SW. Most place in the world if you drive to pick up you lost to those who walks.

Decoys do go into cars. On LA TV if I remember correctly the police car follow the John's car with the decoy in, listening to the wired conversation all the time. The bust occur when the pair stops at a motel. I can believe that because undercovers do a lot better than arrest Johns. But I think it's rare because of logistics.

*what I meant is 'undercovering can be a lot more dangerous than chasing Johns'.

Civ2000
01-29-04, 18:46
Tall and Handsome, I think the reason that SW's get preyed upon by serial killers is that Sw's are the only segment of the female population that will run up to and get in any guys car that stops. At least that how Ridgway, Yates, and Pincton got them.

Sure the occaisonal decoy may get into a car but its the exception -- not the rule.

Also, I can't see how the walking monger has any advantage over the driving monger. Most SW's don't have motel rooms, and a lot of guys don't want to spend the extra couple of bills to pay for one. Most are interested in doing the quick car date. The SW's I've talked to say that 95% of their business is car dates.

Civ2K

James D 2004
01-29-04, 19:20
Civ, that's exactly why SW view getting into cars and drive away is dangerous. That's why some SW don't if they can.

Did I mention the world? In most cities you can get by with public transport along, often it's faster. You can find SW in narrow back streets, even if there's a proper road, the concentration of SW can't take that much traffic. SW stand shoulder to shoulder. There are sufficient walkers so even if you drive and if you don't leave your car, the walkers get a better look face to face, pick up all the good ones before you can even talk to a SW at your car window. How long does it takes for a walker to do a U-turn? I tried, in Paris. How about TJ? Everybody walks.

That's even true sometimes in USA. For the James Wood example, I would have left my car and went up to the SW face to face. But I didn't. In LA leaving your car there is like leaving your armour. And that you car may be never be found.

When there's SW, there's usually motel within walking distance, if not right behind the SW. Even in James Wood, where that's illegal, I got change from the motel clark together with a condom.

Civ2000
01-29-04, 19:47
Obviously if you're in a foreign city where they don't conduct "John Stings" and you can get a quickie room for five bucks the rules change. For example in Bangkok or TJ obviously the method of choice is not a car. I was referring to the good 'ol USA where the goal is to avoid arrest.

Civ2K

Lombardi II
02-02-04, 04:57
This forum is entitled "Prostitution and Law Enforcement," and yet the focus is primarily on street walkers. I suppose that stands to reason when one considers that street walkers and their patrons are easy catches for law enforcement as they must conduct business in a public setting. Further, street walkers are often relegated to a particular neighborhood or district and are easily distinguished from the general public. Their method of solicitation is unsophisticated and well known, and scant evidence is required to substantiate that sex has been proffered for money. Rather like netting fish in a barrel. Eliminating the SW, or her clientele, also eliminates other criminal activity in most cases. So I can certainly understand why a metropolitan police department with limited vice resources would prefer to focus on providers and mongers who take to the streets, and consequently why most of the posts to this forum are about avoiding LE when cruising for SWs.

I guess that long-winded paragraph finally brings me around to my question...what about escort services and independent escorts? I assume that the former is basically a brothel in the eyes of LE and would be relatively easy to bust. But the independents that I've dealt with are all below the radar, so to speak, and you wouldn't even know that they exist if you hadn't put forth a concerted effort to find them. These girls usually advertise online under the guise of a "personal companion" or something of that nature. If you want to see them, you call their cell number and make an appointment. Sex is never discussed, only the duration of the session and the hourly rate; the idea is that you are paying for the escort's time. In my experience, escorts never initiate sex with a new client. It is up to you to pay first and then "get comfortable" before she will proceed. An undercover officer would likely give the girl the agreed upon "donation", thinking that he will get it back post arrest, but would probably not undress, and so the pair would end up chewing the fat for the next hour.

Paying someone to talk to you is hardly a criminal offense. Hell, if that were the case, our jails would be stuffed to the gills with shrinks. :-) So, what basis would LE need to have to arrest an escort who conducts business in the manner outlined above, assuming that is even possible without crossing the line into entrapment? Obviously there would need to be evidence, but you'd never get a real escort to talk in detail (or at all) with someone she's never seen before about what is available for what amount of money.

Has anyone heard of independents being busted, or of clients being arrested by "decoys"? I think that would take too much time and too many resources, especially when you think about what would be involved in passing off a decoy as a real escort (professional pictures, web site hosting, a cell phone number, and so on). Doesn't seem very likely to me.

Joe Zop
02-02-04, 13:26
Lombardi II, I've heard of any number of escort services being busted, but not independents. I suspect that's true for a number of reasons: first, the time/effort one has to put in to get such a bust would be prohibitive compared to the payoff (though I suppose it might work as a sting operation if LE were inclined) especially given the kinds of screening many independents do these days. Escort services make more sense as a target as they are "enterprises" with higher volume both in terms of bodies and dollars.

But I think the bottom line is that both are simply less visible than SWs, so they are much less of a priority. It's a lot harder to make the case for the breakdown of society being connected to prostitution if you're talking individuals who aren't out on the street being obvious, drugged out, and causing traffic jams. Then it's just consenting adults not really bothering anyone else other than perhaps very nosy neighbors. Certainly it's not a bust that looks as good on the 6 O'Clock News or is going to garner the same level of public support as "cleaning up the streets."

PsyberZombie
02-03-04, 22:39
Might Be of Interest to Some =


U.S. military blames lap dances for declining military discipline

Special to World Tribune.com
EAST-ASIA-INTEL.COM
Tuesday, February 3, 2004

SEOUL – The U.S. military has asked South Korea to ban lap dancing and other lewd acts at local nightclubs near its bases, saying they negatively impact military discipline.

The officials said the military was taking similar steps at other bases in the United States and overseas against lap dancing.

The U.S. Army's 2nd Infantry Division, which has 15,000 troops near the border with North Korea, recently sent letters to the South Korean Special Tourist Association and local mayors urging a crack down on lap dancing clubs near barracks.

Describing "client-focused exotic dancing" as the principal cause of worsening military discipline, the military letter called for local club owners to "prohibit any physical contact between dancers and (U.S.) customers." South Korean lap dancing clubs are totally dependent on American customers because they are not allowed to take local clients.

U.S. officials declined to specify what they meant by worsening military discipline.

"We are following trends in the United States," Lt. Col. Chris Bailey, the 2nd Infantry Division's assistant chief of staff, told the Stars & Stripes newspaper. The U.S. Forces Korea has consulted mainland laws banning lap dancing, he said.


»»» ALTERNATE VIEW =

Maybe Lap Dancers INCREASE Military Readiness =

[ because the Soldiers can concentrate on Their Jobs
and NOT just How Horny They Are ]

James D 2004
02-04-04, 00:43
In USA, all escorts are supposed to be prostitutes until she said no and rip you off.

In LA, from time to time, LE lure escorts, especially high profile ones, to a nice hotel and bust them if they say something wrong.

In Orange County, CA, they try to bust all escorts all the time. Use the escort to set up incall sting operations. Rumours have it that LE don't even play by the rules - they tape what they want the judge to hear. They do what they want - it's their word against yours.

You can still stay 100% safe by not saying or doing anything illegal first. But 99% you will be rip-off, especially in OC. This is the same principle that I was talking about SW down below. If you want to stay safe, either the other party has to risk it all, or you will depend on her goodwill. You can [not] have it all.

Plugger
02-04-04, 01:22
I can see why most of you Yanks head overseas for your fun. Seems strange to me that a country that's responsible for the sexual revolution can still be so uptight about sex(Janet Jackson). Anyway, it's a pity that you can't monger in safety like we do down in Oz. Do you guys see there being any chance of a change in law? Decrimialising prostitution? Or are the religious groups just too powerfull over there? Just curious as I've never travelled to your fine country.

Mister Tee
02-04-04, 11:23
Why don't you gentlemen check out my posting in the Sacramento forum. I'm trying to do something about this. Tell me what you think.

Joe Zop
02-04-04, 14:09
Plugger, I think the religious strain is far too strong here at the moment, unfortunately. In a forthcoming book (from Princeton U Press) a sociologist from the Institute for Social Research has analyzed twenty years of survey data and he says that not only do Americans have far more traditional values than any other advanced industrial or post-industrial democracy, but that Americans are becoming ever more religious. 60% of Americans o said in 200 that they attend a religious service at least once a month, and 48% of Americans are moral absolutionists -- believing there are absolutely clear guidelines about good and evil. That's compared to one-third who felt that way in the early 80's, and that puts the US 11th out of 65 surveyed societies around the world, behind four African and primarily some Eastern European areas.

So as much as most here might wish for such changes, there's probably a lot more than will have to change to make any change in legal status happen.

PsyberZombie
02-08-04, 18:56
First, THE MORAL = **NEVER** Try to Rip Off a Hooker !!

A few College Basket·ball players recently found this out
the HARD WAY !!

Let's listen in :


Woman Remorseful After Falsely Accusing St. John's Players

By Sean Gardiner
Staff Writer

February 7, 2004

The woman who falsely accused three St. John's University basketball players of rape only to have her plan come undone when one of the athletes used his cell phone to videotape her alleged extortion attempt, told police she was a down-on-her-luck flight attendant who regretted trying to set up the men, police said.

Sherri Ann Urbanek-Bach, 38, was released after posting $225 bail following her arraignment Friday in Pittsburgh on charges of prostitution and criminal attempt at theft by extortion.

Urbanek-Bach told Pittsburgh detectives that she had been a flight attendant, based in New York City, but was laid off in the fall. She lived in Astoria for several months last year.

Urbanek-Bach also was remorseful about her attempt to have three players charged with rape after they refused to pay her an agreed-upon $1,000 for sex, police said.

"She's just claiming it was bad judgment," said Pittsburgh Sgt. Ed Eckle.

Urbanek-Bach could not be reached for comment.

Urbanek-Bach met six St. John's players and a team manager early Thursday morning at Club Erotica, a strip joint about 13 miles from the team's hotel. The team was in town for a game against the University of Pittsburgh.

She told police she met the players around 2:30 a.m., well past the team's midnight bed curfew, and returned with them to the hotel.

After some of the players had sex with Urbanek-Bach, they refused to pay her, according to court papers.

Around 4:15 a.m., she called police and said she had been raped. Over the next three hours, police interviewed the players in their rooms while Urbanek-Bach was taken to a hospital for tests.

The investigation turned against Urbanek-Bach when one of the players, Elijah Ingram, showed police a video and audio recording he made using a digital camera on his cellular phone. The tape showed her threatening to file rape charges against the players unless they paid her, police said.

Urbanek-Bach was arrested on charges of prostitution, criminal attempt at theft by extortion and filing a false report. The false report charge was later dismissed, police said.

Pittsburgh and New York police said Urbanek-Bach did not have a criminal record in either city.

No charges were filed against the players, but university officials expelled senior Grady Reynolds, 23, and disciplined five others -- Abraham Keita, 23; Ingram, 20; Lamont Hamilton, 19; Mohamed Diakite, 23; and Tyler Jones -- as well as team manager Eric Garnier for violating team rules and acting in a manner "inconsistent with the university mission and values."

Keita and Ingram, the team's leading scorer, will be expelled pending a hearing. Hamilton and Diakite were suspended from the team, as was Garnier.

Jones, who went to the club but was not in the room when Urbanek-Bach returned to the hotel with the players, faces disciplinary action from coaches.

It was Reynolds' second brush with the law in the past year. He was ordered in July to attend anger management courses and to perform five days of community service after pushing a 20-year-old female student against a wall in a dormitory in November 2002.

St. John's athletic director Dave Wegrzyn, explaining why the coaches were not disciplined, said, "It was the students who circumvented policy."

The incident has made worse an already terrible season for team, which has a record of five wins and 14 losses.

With only eight players left, interim coach Kevin Clark, who took over when coach Mike Jarvis was fired, dispelled rumors that the team will hold tryouts or forfeit their remaining eight games. The team is to play Boston College at noon Sunday at home.

Clark promised the team will "do the best we can" while admitting, "This is a low point in [school basketball] history."

Staff writers Jim Baumbach and Deborah S. Morris contributed to this story.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.


For the Original Story , and a Photo of the
Lovely, 38 year old Miss Urbanek-Bach , go to =

»» http://*******.com/37rsj ««

A bit Too Much 'Adam's Apple' for my tastes , if ya dig

Besides being Just Plain WRONG ¹ , Ripping Off Hookers will get you into a World of Trouble :

She'll call the Cops and Claim she was Raped.

She'll have your License Plate number and an EXACT Description of you [ right down to your Garlic Breath ]

Let's see you try to Talk your way out of That One !!


FOOT·NOTE :

¹ : see my recent posts in Opinions > Morality of Prostitution Section

PsyberZombie
02-08-04, 19:10
Oops !! Silly me !!

In that last post, I forgot to include the Web Site
of the Scene of the Crime = Club Erotica

Try = http://www.girlsofcluberotica.com/home.html

Mangus Man
02-12-04, 01:01
God damn! Gosh, real sorry for that, but Plugger and Tall, your eyes must be shut pretty tight if you can't see that this business, and the reasons why it is the way it is, is about MONEY. Ignore that basic fact and you might as well be discussing the price of tea in China, well, that's not a very good comparison, but YOU HAVE GOT TO know what I mean.

Again, I'll say that there must be a 'regional-ness' to how things are probably different in my far corner, but here, the cops couldn't give two flying fucks about any religious bullshit, LE street stings bust you here for the MONEY. And they DON'T bust the agencies, EXCEPT WHEN they don't pay their special "tax" to the fucking sherriff.

Do you really think for one minute that any religious influence exists here when the phone book has 150 pages of escort services, and page 9 of the all three newspaper sports sections has 20 ads every day for "hand-relief" massage spas ? The phone company gets hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from the escort business, I don't see ministers preaching about that! Want to bet the church has a few mill in BellSouth stock?

Oh yeah, Plug, there's also one far more obvious fucking reason you left out for why we glady depart from these familiar shores when its mongering time.

You see, our very sexy yank girls idea of complete full service is, you pay them $250, to watch you stand up and wanker YOURSELF off into a towel, while they seductively sit on your couch chain-smoking with all their clothes on. Now does that make you horny, baby? No? Maybe when afterwards they have the incredible balls to actually ask you for A FUCKING TIP? Still NO action in the pants?

Damn, you're just too hard to please!

Well, guess its time to get right the fuck out of Dodge, eh?

PsyberZombie
02-12-04, 19:53
To : Mangus Man

Boy , are YOU Hanging Out in All the Wrong Places !!

James D 2004
02-13-04, 00:37
Mangus, I lost my continuation of thought and don't know why you are calling my name. Money also control politics and local officials are elected, including those controlling LE. In cities of unfordable housing (sorry real estate again), everybody wants it to stay that way and the elected officials make sure LE do that. In places where nobody give a damn, like South Gate, whole bunch of corrupted council members can be elected from time to time, taking money from business such as the famous Hou MP. Until all are recalled and investigated.

Phone book is an example in USA that if it's not written down in black and white law, things can get really extreme. Escort is legit and you can't do anything about it. BTW, when waiting for my 21 year old all time favorite today, I flipped the phone book (verizon), where the number of escort advs sh rinked into a few.

Civ2000
02-13-04, 02:50
TNH, Unfordable housing...is that where a deep river blocks access to the property???

They bust escort services all the time.

Civ2K

James D 2004
02-13-04, 03:39
Civ, blame my spell checker, I have nothing to do with correct spelling. I mean cities where affordable housing is rare.

Critically speaking, you have to ask where, what, escorts they bust, why and how. Escorts not providing sexual pleasure is legal. LE is successful in OC but in LA they don't intend to close down everybody, as evidence in the well being of escort malls. The last major bust in LA is an agency using a house as incall, too many traffic and someone must have complained. LA LE do lure escorts to a hotel outcall but that's rather pointless. If, say, ********'s adv decreases then we should start worrying about it.

Pokey
02-13-04, 17:54
LE does bust call girl rings from time to time. Yes, escort service is legal, but usually its only a front for prostitution, just like some MP's are a front for prostitution.( except in the case of Manus Man, where the girl gets him to jack off, and takes all his money, Ha, ha, oh by the way there was sexual contact in this case-MangusMan got "fucked")

The most famous recent case was that of Heidi Fleiss, "Hollywood Madam" she was arrested for pimping, pandering and running a call girl ring to Hollywood's elite.

I myself never used escort services in LA/OC because of possible ripoff nature of those call girl rings and the price of $200 and above. For example check out Pomona, CA section on this site. We have a OC/Harbor Bl SW/ Call girl wanting $350 for an hour mutiple pops, way to much. Oh, by the way I was reading about a Forum setup likes ours, where the cops posting messages in the Seattle Forum posing as call girls, and then busting the "Johns" as they came to the hotel rooms.


The good news if any or you are in Las Vegas, the escort service is good, and they provide FS, the price can be a high, but I have never been ripped off. In fact what I like to do, is have the agency send me the girl, if I don't like her looks or if she wants to much, I just ask the agency to send me another girl, either the girl will lower her price, or I'll get a "9" in the next two or three visits. Sometimes after I tell the agency I don't want to girl, she will rip off her own agency by keeping all the money. The problem is after I finish having sex with the girl; another two or three girls start knocking on my door.( since Im not in TJ, I don't have my viagra, or the money to afford 2 or 3 girls, plus the agency fee.)

James D 2004
02-13-04, 22:21
The Heidi case shows that what difference does it make for that token effort? Business as usual. Unlike in Orange County, the fear is constant.

Not agree about LV. LA has all types of talent, all types of price range. I can give you examples of famous escorts who move from LA to LV because she became older, need cheaper rent and less competition. I would think LV is more LE dangerous than LA. By the looks of advertisements handing out on the streets, many are rip-off dancers. Your agency sound too good to be true, like in London, care to share? I'll have a go next time when I'm there.

PsyberZombie
02-16-04, 19:16
This was originally posted on the U.S. > Rhode Island > Providence board ; but it belongs here , too

Speaking of Scanners =

There are several reasons you shouldn't rely on them to tell if a gal is 'wired' .

First = LE may not be using the standard Police Frequencies Band during an under·cover operation [ they might be using, say, Citizen's Band ]

But MORE Importantly = the 'wire' the LEO / SW is carrying probably isn't even a radio transmitter: it's just a Tape Recorder.

[ This is the reason that I've stated here in the past that One Sign that she *might* be a Cop is if she's carrying a purse ]

It's standard these days for under·cover SW stings to be tape·recorded. The 'SW' communicates with her back·up via Hand Signals. Once yer on tape offering money for sex, she'll touch her hair with one hand, which is the Signal to "Move In"

Touching her hair with BOTH Hands signals An Emergency [ like if you display a weapon ]

The purpose of the 'Wire' is NOT for Communication between the members of the Sting Team; but only to produce Evidence against you so can't pull the Classic "He said / She said" Defense


BUT, if you *insist* on buying a Scanner, here are ALL the frequencies currently FCC· licensed to the City of Providence =

[ ALL deleted here , but the Frequencies of Every Police Dept in America are available on·line ]

Sabor
02-18-04, 16:34
I just saw something on the Maury Povich Show. It detailed about peeping toms and landlords that have two way mirrors in some apartments which I do not condone. The one segment that perterbed me was about a guy who thru his own initiative bought camera and survalience equipment for the sole effort of busting "Johns" in the act. This gerbil would follow you after you've made your pick up and wait till you was in the act and rush up to your vehicle while taping to expose you then call 911 to get you busted. This idiot would then find out where you live to send a video tape of the episode to your wife if married. It has been my experience that no one is an angel so, my question would be what bones would this jerk have in his closet. This is a high risk hobby he's dicided to fortake, surely in my nieghborhood he would have been beaten back to childbirth.

Be safe out there!

VilunyaChert
02-21-04, 07:58
I don't read the Thai boards (who has that much time :) ) so maybe this is old news, but I think it might be of general interest anyway. Long story. URL probably won't expire, no registration needed.

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1151521,00.html>

Chuponalgas
03-06-04, 01:49
HYPOCRITICAL ASSHOLE!

Alameda Judge Arrested for Soliciting Prostitution

Jahna Berry
The Recorder
03-08-2004


OAKLAND -- Alameda County Superior Court Judge Jackson Gifford was charged with soliciting prostitution on Friday after his arrest in a police sting Wednesday.

Gifford will be arraigned on the misdemeanor charge March 19, court documents say.

According to police reports from the videotaped sting operation, the 76-year-old judge, who presides in the Wiley W. Manuel Courthouse in Oakland, was driving on San Pablo Avenue in his gold Cadillac Northstar on Wednesday evening. He pulled up to a female police decoy standing on the corner of San Pablo and Brockhurst St.

"Do you want a date?" she asked, according to the report.

"Yeah," Gifford replied.

"You got a place to go?"

"Yeah. My house."

"Okay. Where's that?"

"Over by Lake Merritt."

"What do you want? A blow job?" she asked.

"Half and half," the judge said, referring to the street parlance for half oral sex and half regular sex.

The decoy said that it would cost the judge $40 and directed him to meet her at the corner of San Pablo and 33rd Street. That's where authorities arrested Gifford, the police report said.

Gifford could not be reached for comment Friday afternoon.

The Oakland jurist was appointed to the municipal court in 1981 by then-Gov. Jerry Brown, and was elevated when the superior and municipal courts unified in 1998. He was in private practice in Oakland from 1959 to 1981, handling criminal and civil cases as a solo practitioner.

Gifford did not hear cases on Friday and will be on vacation until the end of the month, said Assistant Court Executive Officer Joanne Lederman.

Although court documents say Gifford will be arraigned in Dept. 107, the courthouse where he presides, Lederman said it's likely that the hearing will be transferred to another courthouse.

District Attorney Thomas Orloff said that a prosecutor had not been assigned to the case yet. He declined to comment further on the case.

The case is People v. Gifford, 496589.

Civ2000
03-06-04, 04:23
Chuponalgas, I personally don't find it funny when anyone gets busted for solicitation. I think people from all walks of life frequent prostitutes, including police officers and judges. Just because they are ordered by their superiors to enforce prostitution laws doesn't mean they agree with or support these laws. Just as I wouldn't laugh at you if you got busted, nor would I laugh at a judge who after a tough day in court picked up a little nookie on the way home.

Civ2000

GettingTang
03-06-04, 06:18
I'm completely with Civ here on this issue.
As I've said before, we are all of the male species, thus subject to frequently thinking with our smaller heads! Do you really think that just because a cop wears a badge, or a judge a robe, they are somehow not tempted by the acts of this trade?

Men have been known in history to travel oceans across, continents across, risk life and limb, and fight wars, all for a little nookie! I hardly doubt being in the LE field has changed this for anyone!

The only think that gets me, is when we have these smiling politicians, or people who think they are better then anyone else because the preach morality about sex, when they too are doing the same thing, or even worse, like molesting their own daughters, or children in churches, etc. That is what gets me going.

I was once on a bachelor party in Vegas for a cousin of mine who was getting married. He was and still is a cop. I partied harder then I ever have in my life for two nights in Vegas with a group of cops. Out of 12 of us in the group, all but TWO engaged in paying for a little nookie!

TANG~!

Perry Mason
03-16-04, 23:47
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/tribune-review/news/s_179192.html

Y'all please be careful with posts regarding details. I believe law enforcement members are probably members here.

Chuponalgas
03-22-04, 23:16
YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK:

Monday, March 22, 2004
Travel agents indicted for 'sex tours'
ALBANY, New York (AP) -- Two operators of a New York travel agency have been indicted for organizing "sex tours" to Southeast Asia, the first such case involving a United States-based company, the state attorney general said Monday.

The trips arranged by Big Apple Oriental Tours were allegedly a way to solicit customers for prostitution rings in the Philippines and Thailand.

"These defendants claimed to be operating a traditional travel agency. It is far from that," Attorney General Eliot Spitzer said. He said the travel agency's actions "led to the systematic exploitation and suppression of young women."

Douglas Allen, 59, and Norman Barabash, 58, were charged with felony and misdemeanor counts of promoting prostitution. They pleaded innocent Feb. 27. If convicted, they could face up to seven years in prison.

Barabash's lawyer, Daniel A. Hochheiser, said the case is weak and the indictment is politically motivated.

According to a separate civil lawsuit brought by Spitzer in 2003, Big Apple Oriental Tours conducted a marketing campaign that included videos, a Web site, brochures and customer testimonials.

A brochure promised "unforgettable adventure vacations for single men to paradise," according to Paul Larrabee, a spokesman for Spitzer. The trips cost about $2,500 for seven to 10 days.

CBGBConnisur
03-23-04, 01:05
I am so happy I live in Australia for
1)The gorgeous beautiful women here who love sex.
2)The far less violent local population, they don't shoot each other up like they do in the USA.
3)Friendlier more outgoing people.
4)The gorgeous weather.
5)The gorgeous beaches.
6)A government that actually cares about people, I don't pay high insurance premiums to see a doctor, because its free here.
7) And I can see prostitutes whenever.

Civ2000
03-23-04, 01:27
CBGB, Free health care? That must be great! I know nothing about Australia, but my friends in Canada say their taxes pay for it. Just curious who pays those doctors salaries?

Civ2000

Sainter
03-23-04, 03:43
CBGB, you forgot the fantastic food and the huge variety of international sporting events. Especially in Melbourne. :)

GettingTang
03-23-04, 04:51
Don't get me wrong. Australia is a beautiful vibrant placer to live and visit. The people are great, the culture is great too. Food, is not the best, but hey, they have fine beaches.

But lets get one misconception correct. Free healthcare?!?! well you're highly taxed for it #1, #2, if you have a sinus infection you can wait up to 5 months to get in to see the Doc. I don't know about you, but I'll take America's healthcare plan anyday! We have many safety nets in place in this country for those who truly cannot afford healthcare. And these safety nets are far superior to even average care you would receive in Australia.

TANG~!

Joe Zop
03-23-04, 15:41
In this case, Civ, you're mistaken. CBGB is an American who spent most of his time in NYC bemoaning the women there and wishing he was elsewhere. Now he's got his wish.

But yes, he's still singing the same one-note song. Seems that being down under hasn't really much improved his mood about his homeland, although I'm with him that the U.S.'s vaunted healthcare superiority is vastly overblown.

PsyberZombie
04-07-04, 06:02
Here's a Good Resource =

A List of the Ages of Consent for all around the World

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

Brownout
04-12-04, 11:18
CBGB

Long before you say all those I have already been disillusioned with Uncle Sam. That's why I forewent naturalisation. Skirting the issue of politics, the steps you could take are:

Step 1. Take on any opportunity to acquire legal identity through which you'll eventually become eligible to citizenship of Australia or New Zealand, or the country of your choice.

Step 2. During the process, wean yourself from what Uncle Sam provides you, viz. social security and votership. You wouldn't be able to vote your conscience anyway even if you continued to vote whilst overseas.

Step 3. Once you embark on the citizenship you want, go to a U.S. consulate nearby and renounce U.S. citizenship. (WEB du Bois, founder of NAACP, did the same when he was denied passport.)

Step 4. Be a happy citizen of the country of your choice. Make sure that you make the most out of national healthcare system. America's been spending tax dollars on warmongering ever after the Second World War, not healthcare to its people.

Step 5. Go punting!

--------------------
It is known that many locales have been made notorious for being centres of sex tourism. You may not know what I am alluding to but I know that legislators are calling for drastic measures on the floors of many countries' parliaments: Deport foreigners for punting for a certain length of time.

Resistance to this measure is caused more by inability to put a lid on corruption than by potential chilling effect on tourism.

Here's the question to all punters: What would you do if you got deported for this reason?

PurpleNGold
04-12-04, 12:54
Originally posted by Brownout
Here's the question to all punters: What would you do if you got deported for this reason?


Go somewhere else.

Sporadic
04-20-04, 03:26
Brownout,

Mate, you are way off base on the citizenship thing.

Renouncing your citizenship is a serious matter, and really not required.

I would add that while gaining nationality in another country is possible, it is not trivial, particularly if your desire is to make use of socialized medicine and mongering activities.

While the US does not encourage dual nationality, it is not illegal nor immoral.
Renouncing citizenship as a form of social protest is your right, but a rather drastic measure. My advice is to very carefully consider your options.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Brownout
04-20-04, 21:44
Of course punting would not be that important a consideration, but sometimes citizenship makes a difference.

Some countries/jurisdictions make some or all crimes committed by their citizens outside of frontiers under their jurisdiction. This is similar to but not exactly the same as extraterritoriality.

To illustrate this point, take an example. Say that while touring Country Y I did domething that would constitute a crime under my country of citizenship. I could be caught, tried and punished in that country under its laws when I either go back or get extradited. If I did the same thing after gaining exclusive citizenship of Country Y the question of whether it constitutes a crime would be handled under Country Y's laws.

Renunciation of citizenship while abroad means you no longer have either rights or duties associated with it. This is not always drastic. Do not commit the mistake of neglecting duties.

It is inaccurate to say whether dual citizenship is illegal. Much better to say whether it is recognised. In fact, some countries (including the U.S.) recognise dual citizenship, Some others (e.g. Japan) require choice of citizenship on adulthood, and others do not recognise dual citizenship at all.

Three X
05-06-04, 11:46
FRIENDS & NEIGHBORS

Because you are in a profession that can net you a larger than average income, it is easy for those who have to work far more hours for less income to become jealous of the things you have. It is especially important to if take time to sooth their feelings and turn them into allies rather than enemies. If you don't want to tell your friends what you do for a living, that is understandable. Many people are uptight about their own sexuality and can be very critical of you if you have ditched your hang-ups. In the past, some well meaning 'friends' and family members have actually turned in their prostitute friends and relatives to the police when they discover what their friend does for a living. If they are unable to persuade their friend to leave the business, they may mistakenly think that by turning them in to the police, they are saving their friend from a life of degradation and pain. Their misguided intervention can ultimately destroy your life, so it is understandable that some of us try to keep our lives hidden from our non-sex industry friends and family. So, by living a double life, some women are able to keep these friends from discovering their secret.

However, if they discover your profession by accident, you should be ready to discuss it openly and honestly with them. By hedging, you lead them to think the worst about your career, and they may develop a "Good Samaritan" complex and want to 'help' you by calling the police. Assure them that you don't have a big, mean pimp who is forcing you into this business and taking all your money, and that you always practice safe sex, etc.

*Be the best neighbor on your block or in your building. It's best not to have loud parties or have your guests park in other people's driveways or parking spaces. Don't leave your trash where it doesn't belong. You shouldn't play your music so loud that someone has to complain. This goes for your phone ringing as well. Be sure they can't hear your phone or answering machine from outside your apartment. . . for several reasons. Go out of your way to be friendly to your neighbors. Be pleasant, say "hi." Exchange Christmas cards or even gifts with those who are living the closest to you. It is more difficult for someone to dislike you if they see you as a nice person.

*If your clients visit you at your apartment or house, be sure they know which one to come to so that they don't end up knocking at your neighbor's door in the middle of the night and bother them. This can be annoying at any time of day, but particularly if they are sleeping and someone comes knocking and asks for you at three in the morning. Not only will they get upset that their sleep was interrupted, but they may wonder why you are having company at that time of night. If there is a problem, be sure that you speak to them the next day and apologize for the rude behavior of your friends. Smoothing ruffled feathers goes a long way to keeping them out of your business.

* If you have a boyfriend, even if he knows about your work, it's important to be sure he doesn't feel insecure about your relationship with him. [If he doesn't know about your work, be very careful what you tell him you do. Sometimes they want to surprise you at the job where you say you work, but, if you are not there, they become suspicious.] If he does know about your work, it is helpful to talk about how he feels about it and not dismiss his feelings as unimportant.

If he does not know about your work, it is a tough call whether or not to be honest with him and tell him. If you think there is not a chance in the world that he will find out, then maybe you can get away with not telling him. But if you expect to have a long relationship with him or even get married, it is a possibility that your past may crop up eventually, and he may feel that you were dishonest by not telling him. This may threaten your relationship permanently, but then, so can be honest about it. It takes a very secure man to be able to handle knowing about the work we do. This is why is is difficult for many women to establish long term relationships with a man, unless she first meets him as a client or has been in a secure relationship prior to entering the profession. Someday, when society grows up and gives our profession the respect it deserves, perhaps it will make it easier for sex workers to enter into long term committed relationships just as any other worker in any other profession can.


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Well, that about covers most of the questions that are asked concerning the sex industry and your risk of arrest.

If you have been convicted of any prostitution related offense and are facing incarceration, you may want more information about how to survive jail or prison. I think it is easier to go through if you know what to expect than if you don't know what's coming. COYOTE LA will have another booklet available soon which will describe the situation you will face and in what order it will come.

We will also adopt you while you are incarcerated. This means that if you are in a local county jail or a nearby state prison facility, we will try to get permission to be a regular visitor. If we are not able to do that, we will at least write to you, send you stamps and writing material, and if possible, send you items that you will be allowed to have during your incarceration.

While it is terribly unfair that any of us have to spend one minute of our lives away from our family and friends for engaging in activity that is none of anyone's business, the fact is that you will survive it. With a support team of friends outside to give you encouragement, this traumatic event will be over sooner than you think and this unthinkably unjust situation will one day be far behind you. If it should happen to you, remember that, until the law is changed, there will be many who are incarcerated after you who will need your encouragement and support.

We encourage you to write or call us and share any experience you may have with law enforcement agents- good or bad- so we can warn others and perhaps prevent someone else from getting arrested.



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Three X
05-06-04, 11:47
HOW TO DEAL WITH A HIGH PROFILE CASE - THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW

If you are unfortunate enough to get arrested at a time when there is a spotlight on prostitution (such as during television ratings periods like February, May, September and November) or if your case is unusual and would likely cause the media to be interested in your case, there are things you should know about what can happen to you and how you can fight back. If the media picks up on your case and flashes your name and perhaps even home address on the television screen, you will find your whole life will be altered- if not forever, then for some time to come. It is traumatic to have your privacy shattered for the sake of television or newspaper ratings, but the journalist who calls attention to your case to the public will not be concerned for your welfare. Even though prostitution is against the law to protect women from being exploited, you will find that there are few reporters who care about protecting your rights. They figure that if you were involved in an illegal or sexually explicit business, you have given up your rights to privacy and protection.

Most of the time, reporters do not view women in the sex industry as human beings whose lives can be destroyed by the publicity that they receive- that we can even be put in danger of being murdered when our home address is revealed to the public and to some psycho out there who figures that society is better off without the "sinful woman." It has happened in the past, unfortunately, but the media doesn't apologize and doesn't get it that it is wrong for them to put us at risk through their efforts to get ratings. It makes the media our worst enemy in some cases.

However, once the "cat is out of the bag," the most important thing you can do for yourself is to make a friend out of the media. If you have nothing to hide, it will only help you if you are friendly to the press rather than ignore them. Ignoring the press will only allow them to give the police version of the events, and, it will make it more difficult later on to get them to print your version. You do not need to tell them your whole story. Rather, if you want to wait until after you have had your arraignment in court and see if you are even going to be charged and have to go to trial, you can just tell them that you would be happy to give your side as soon as it is possible for you to do so. Appear friendly and cooperative, so that you bait them and make them want to talk to you.

Unless your attorney has had experience dealing with a high profile case, they will probably not want you to speak to the press at all. In the circumstances where someone is charged with a serious crime where there is a victim, this is probably good advice, but in the cases of prostitution and related charges, there is no good reason not to try to make friends of the press. There is every reason for you to do so, however, including getting your reputation back. Your friends and family who may not have known what profession you were in before, may want to disown you. If they see only the police version of the events, they may never know what really happened. Since the media has already exposed you to the world, it is up to you to reclaim your reputation.

If you have the opportunity to appear on a talkshow, be careful which one you do. If the talkshow has a reputation of tearing it's guests apart, you don't need to have that experience! Other shows like Oprah or Donahue are better, and will give you an opportunity to state your case without being verbally ambushed. One other side effect of appearing on a national tv show is that it tends to make your family, friends and neighbors view you differently and perhaps even think of you now as a celebrity rather than just an accused prostitute. For whatever reason, people do treat you differently if you have been on national tv than if you are just mentioned in the news.

If you decide to appear on a talkshow, you might want to wait until it has been determined if the city or district attorney is going to file charges. If they do, you need to be careful what you say on television so that you don't implicate yourself or make it impossible for your lawyer to defend you. The talkshow host/ reporter or any other member of the media is going to try to get you to say whatever they want to hear- but you have the right to determine how much you will tell them. Do not let them bully you into saying anything that will get you into more trouble. If you feel they are going too far, tell them so. Just like anyone else, they will try to take advantage of you if you let them. You set the boundaries and determine what information you are willing to give.

You can also get paid for your appearance, so be sure to ask the producer about a fee. Depending upon how much they want you and whether or not you are giving them an exclusive interview, they can pay you from a few hundred dollars to several thousand, although the Donahue Show seldom pays anyone at all. Shows like "20/20," "60 Minutes," and "Dateline" do not pay at all, but other so called tabloid shows like "Hard Copy," "Inside Edition" and "A Current Affair," will pay you and sometimes pay you a lot of money which can help you take care of your legal fees. If you get a lot of offers to do shows, you might think about hiring a publicist to represent you and negotiate your appearance fees.

Back to your lawyer. If your lawyer absolutely refuses to let you speak to the press, it is your decision. The lawyer is working for you, and only you can decide if it is worth risking your case. Ask the lawyer what the risks are if you do speak to the media, and if it is okay if you just inform the press that you will be happy to speak to them when your lawyer permits you to. Again, unless a lawyer has handled a high profile prostitution case, they may not understand the importance of being nice to the press. A press statement from your lawyer is not going to be the same as one from you, and the media may ignore it.

Also, if your case is not in the category of a Heidi Fleiss, even if your story is "hot" for a few days, eventually the media will find someone else to shine the spotlight on. Your opportunity to cash in on your notoriety is limited, and if it is a sweeps or ratings month, you have a better chance to get your side of the story told then you do when the month is over. Your story becomes a cold one in a short time, unless you can lure the media to wait for an interview with you at such time as you can give one.


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ALL THIS SOUNDS AWFUL . . . IS THERE ANY WAY TO PROTECT MYSELF FROM GETTING ARRESTED?

To be honest with you, if the police want to arrest you, no matter what you do or say or don't say, they can and will arrest you. The charges might very well get thrown out of court or never get filed at all, but, you will probably end up spending money to defend yourself even if it goes nowhere. And not to mention you may have some explaining to do to your family and friends if your arrest makes the eleven o'clock news. When it comes to men and women in whatever branch of the sex industry, society would prefer not to know if the police are violating your rights. They figure the police wouldn't have arrested you in the first place if you weren't doing something illegal. So, it is up to you to take an aggressive posture and fight for your rights.

There are some things that you can do to keep angry neighbors, jealous boyfriends, etc from turning you in, as well as some signs to look out for if the potential client is actually an undercover cop.

Keep in mind that nothing you can do is 100% arrest proof. Exercise every precaution that you can, and hope that someday soon we will get these silly protectionist laws repealed so you can work in peace without the stress of wondering if it's your day to "go downtown."


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MORE TIPS

Be extra careful on multiple girl calls. The cops like to set up as many women at a time as possible because it saves time on paperwork. Beside, cops are just like other men and they like menages, too!

If you go to his hotel room and he asks you to sit in a specific seat, rather than where you want to, he may be angling you for the video camera. Either make sure they get your good side for the tape of tell him you will sit wherever you want.

*If you are an exotic dancer, and a customer wants to see you privately, don't think that just because he has been into the club before and spent lots of money on you that he is safe. Cops can and do spend lots of the taxpayer's money to set up sting operations, and so it is not safe to assume that the customer is not a cop because he has given you big tips in the past. Even if you turn him down to see him privately, he can still arrest you if you allow him to touch your genitals, or he asks you to touch his, for a tip. If he has an erection, it is still no proof that he is not a cop- after all, cops are human too, and they can get aroused as easily as any other men when they are dealing with attractive and sexy women.

IF LITTLE BELLS START GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD - LISTEN TO THEM DON'T EVER TALK ABOUT SEX AND MONEY AND IF HE INSIST UPON GETTING YOU TO DISCUSS A SEX ACT GET UP AND LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. IF HE IS VISITING YOU, TELL HIM HE HAS OFFENDED YOU AND ASK HIM TO LEAVE AT ONCE.


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OTHER WAYS TO POSSIBLY AVOID GETTING ARRESTED

Sometimes, it seems as though for some women in the sex industry', their worst enemy is themselves. Without realizing it, they allow the people in their orbit to become the means that destroys them. By behaving in a certain way, they give their friends, neighbors, lovers and relatives the opportunity to report them to the police and thereby risk getting arrested. Here are some common mistakes to avoid- and thereby avoid making your friends, neighbors, boyfriends and even your fellow sex workers, jealous or angry at you and turning you in.

OTHER SEX WORKERS

It would be nice to think that everyone in this business is ethical and honest, but, I realize that in every profession there are those who you can trust and those you cannot. If you want to keep your fellow sex worker from turning on you, and reporting you to the police, you need to behave toward them in a way that won't make them angry or jealous of you. This means that you should practice the golden rule. Don't do anything to them that you would not want them to do to you. Don't steal clients from them, don't cheat them out of money you may owe them. If you do doubles together, tell them if you have contracted a sexually transmitted disease so they can get a medical check up, too. Keep your word to them. If you have called them to arrange for a double but the client cancels, let them know as soon as possible so they can make other plans.

If you work for more than one madam, be up front about it. She will probably find out about it anyway. Don't get greedy and try to go around her to see one of her clients on your own. If she has a policy that allows you to see him on your own after you pay the first or second cut to her, that's fine. If you and a fellow sex worker agree to exchange clients rather than a cut, then you should be fair with them and give them as much work as they give you or let them know you can't and offer to pay a cut instead.

CLIENTS

It has happened in the past that clients have turned in the sex worker they see. If they feel they are getting cheated out of time or money, they might feel it is okay to report you to the police. Be sure that you treat all clients in a fair and reasonable manner. If you think they are cheating you out of money, tell them to their face rather than try to get even by shorting them on time or taking money out of their wallet while they shower. Sometimes they will write bad checks, or not show up for their appointment, and we may feel that we can get even by calling them at work and telling their secretaries or calling their wives and telling them where their husbands spend their time. This is never acceptable to do to anyone for any reason. You may be mad that you got cheated, but by pulling a stunt like that, it may backfire and get you arrested instead. If you are worried about getting bad checks, don't take anything but cash. As far as not notifying you about missing an appointment- it is rude for anyone to do. There is nothing one can do about rude behavior except to politely let him know you will not be available for him again if he calls. If he really wants to see you again, tell him that in the future, he must pay you something extra if he doesn't give you notice of a cancelled appointment or if he is late. It is a good policy to always be polite to your clients even if they behave rudely to you, because it will be you and not them who gets arrested if they want to "drop a dime' on you.

Three X
05-06-04, 11:49
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WHAT IF I USE A DIFFERENT NAME FOR MY BUSINESS, DO I HAVE TO TELL THEM MY REAL NAME, AND IF I DON'T, WILL THEY FIND OUT ANYWAY?

Actors and actresses often use aliases. If the police bully you because you may use a different name for work, remind them that one of their heroes also used a 'fake' name- John Wayne. You can take the chance of not giving them your real name, and if you have no fingerprints on file, the chances are you will get away with it. If you have ever been arrested in another state, it may take more time, but with technology advancing as rapidly as it is, they will undoubtedly catch up with you. It is not illegal to use a fictitious name, or else plenty of actors and actresses would be in jail for doing so. It may, however, be a crime to deliberately withhold information from a law enforcement agent. (???)


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WHAT IF I DON'T SHOW UP AT MY ARRAIGNMENT?

Unless you gave them a false name when they arrested you and they have no way to find you again, it is wise to show up at your arraignment. One of the reasons that many bail bonds people have stopped posting bail for prostitution arrests is because the women they post bail for don't show up at their arraignment and the bail bonds people lose their money. When you don't show up in court as you agreed to do when you were released, you make it more difficult for the next woman who gets arrested to be able to get out on bail. Of course, if you continue in your occupation and you should ever get arrested again, it will be on your record.


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IF THEY TAKE PROPERTY FROM MY APARTMENT, WILL I EVER GET IT BACK, AND IF SO, WHEN?

You should eventually get back everything they take from you, with the exception of drugs, of course, but it does take a long time sometimes for you to get it back. Sometimes you will never get it back unless you sue, and even then it is not for sure. Insist that your lawyer keep trying to recover your property, and keep track of the times you asked him or her to do it, what their response was, and if they gave you a time that you might get it back.


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WHAT KIND OF LAWYER DO I NEED AND WHAT WILL HE OR SHE DO FOR ME? HOW MUCH WILL THEY CHARGE ME?

For a prostitution, pandering or pimping charge, you will need a criminal lawyer. As I said earlier, it is best to have a lawyer with experience handling these kinds of cases, or someone with enthusiasm for this cause. They will appear in court with you at your arraignment, file the necessary motions and papers that need to be filed with the court, and obtain all the information they need from the police records. HOWEVER, DO NOT TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT THEY WILL KNOW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN YOUR CASE. It is your job to make a list of the events that led to your arrest and give them possible reasons that led to your arrest, such as a jealous neighbor, a boyfriend, or a client you might be upset with you. Lawyers are not mind readers and only know what is in the police records. If you think that something is important to your case, be sure you get a clear answer from your attorney what they intend to do about it. Do not assume that just because you told your attorney about something that they will pursue that information.

You have a right to know what is going on with your case at all times. If your lawyer won't give you a straight answer, keep after them until you know exactly where you stand. If your attorney uses language to explain your case to you that you don't understand, insist that they tell you so that you do understand everything that is going on.

Lawyers charge different fees for different services, so it is important to get in writing exactly what they are going to do for the money you pay them. Some charge by the hour and others charge by the case. And they usually charge more to go to trial, so you need to know what the fees are for up to trial and what they will be if you decide to go to trial. If you are paying the lawyer by the hour, you may want to work out an arrangement to pay a flat fee for the trial. If you are paying the lawyer by the hour, be sure that he/she keeps track of the hours they spend on your case and give you a copy. . .don't take their word for how many hours they spent on it. You need to know if there are some questionable charges to your bill, such as phone calls to you or someone else that never took place, so be sure that you keep track of every phone call to your attorney or their calls to you. Keep track of how long the call is- because they will try to bill you for a whole hour even if they only talked to you for five minutes. Some lawyers want all their money upfront, and others will allow you to pay as the legal case proceeds. You will not get a refund if they lose your case, but if there is deliberate malpractice or incompetence, you can sue although it is difficult to find a lawyer who will sue another lawyer.

If you have a question about your case, you have every right to call your attorney to ask them. A word of warning- attorneys are notorious for not returning phone calls- no matter how much you are paying them. If it is an emergency, you should state that when you leave a message with their voice mail or secretary. If it is a question that can wait, it may be a while before they get back to you, so be prepared. While you are waiting to learn your fate, it can be extremely frustrating if your attorney doesn't call you back right away. Don't panic. I found it helpful to write down the questions I had as they came to me so I could remember to ask my attorney whenever he did call me.

The court must notify your attorney of anything that is important to your case, so don't worry that the police or the court can do anything to you without letting your attorney know first.


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IF THEY HAVE ME ON TAPE, DO I HAVE A CHANCE TO FIGHT THE CASE OR SHOULD I JUST PLEAD GUILTY?

As we discussed earlier, pleading guilty and getting a probation sentence can be a very bad thing, so, I suggest you demand that it go to trial. If the court is overloaded with cases, the city attorney or district attorney is not going to want to waste valuable court time and will try to get you to plea bargain. If you insist on going to trial, they may just throw the case out altogether. (You can't count on this, of course, but, it often happens.)

If you have a public defender as your attorney, they will do their best to get you to take the offer that the city or district attorney offers you. Insist upon your right to go to trial. It is more work for them, but that's what they get paid for. Since you are facing a mandatory 45 days in jail, the least you can do for yourself is fight it.

Three X
05-06-04, 11:51
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HELP, I'VE BEEN ARRESTED!

Okay, so, you have been arrested. You are in a state of shock, and are angry that it happened to you. Believe me, whatever you are going through, some one else has been through it before. Here are some tips to help you get through your experience, which you need to do for your protection, as well as to have a good defense available when you go to court. (these tips are also good to keep in mind if you have not been arrested yet- so you remember what to do if it happens to you.)

* Write down all the events that led up to your arrest. When did the undercover cop call you, what did he say on the telephone, what did he say when he arrived? What was he wearing- did he get undressed and if so, what was this size of his penis, etc. Was his penis erect when he got undressed? How about when you got undressed? Did he have any tattoos, or other unusual identifying marks on his body that will prove to a jury that the cop was fully undressed before he arrested you? Did he let you give him a massage before he arrested you? For how long? Did he make you give him oral sex or have intercourse with you? How many other cops were involved in arresting you? If the first officer allowed you to get undressed, when the other cops arrived, did they see you naked before they allowed you to get dressed? Did they take pictures of you in your underwear or while you were naked? Did they take anything from your house or apartment, and if so, did they give you a property receipt for it? Was everything they took listed properly on the receipt? Did they say why they needed to take anything from your apartment or go through your purse? Be sure they correctly list the amount of money you have in your purse, or you can kiss it goodbye. If you are missing anything when you return to you home after you have been released from jail on bail, be sure to check every room incase they moved it somewhere else. If it is not anywhere, file a theft report as soon as possible, and give a copy of the report to your attorney. These are things that are important to remember if you do get to go to trial. So, write them down as soon as possible before you forget them.

* When seeking a lawyer, here are some things to think about. If you decide to go with a public defender, which you may want to do if you have no money, remember that they are being paid by the same people who are prosecuting you- and for many of them, it is just a game. Many public defenders are so over worked with cases, they just want you to plead guilty and take the mandatory jail time. To them, having you go to jail for 45 days is no big deal- after all, they might be defending someone accused of murder and the sentence for that is much more serious than a mere 45 days. So, even though it is your freedom at stake and going to jail for even one day seems like the end of the world to you, they are not necessarily going to be sympathetic, so keep that in mind. If you tell them that you want to fight your case, they will probably tell you that you haven't got a chance of winning and tell you that you should plead guilty to save them some time. You might get lucky and get a public defender who believes that the law is wrong, and decides to help you fight it, but don't count on it. You get what you pay for.

Let's say that you decide to hire an attorney that isn't a public defender. How do you know who is a good one and who is not? You need to find someone who is (a) either experienced in handling prostitution cases and knows the law and the system, or, (b) someone who is cause oriented and thinks the prostitution laws are wrong and will fight tooth and nail to defend you. Yes, this might cost you money- unfortunately, that's the price of choosing to engage in behavior that is outside the "acceptable" norm. If you haven't been arrested yet, you may want to sock away some money to pay for a lawyer incase you do get arrested. It is well worth taking the time and money to speak to an attorney before you get arrested and know that you have someone you can call on the minute you are sitting in the local police station being booked.


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IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ARRESTED YET, WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT?

No matter what I tell you, you will never be prepared for it when it happens. Being arrested is a traumatic and humiliating experience that can leave you in shock. If you are arrested in your own home, you might feel much like a rape victim does and be afraid to be left alone or feel like you have to move away. You will probably not feel safe in your own place for a while. If the police have broken down your door to enter your home, you will probably experience fear of a reentry attack. There is little to do for such a feeling except to let time pass- and the feeling will eventually go away. You can seek therapy for your trauma, but it is important that you find a therapist or counselor who will not judge you for your profession and try to add guilt to the mixture of unstable emotions. You should ask some of your peers if they know of a therapist who will understand your situation and who will not try to blame your traumatized emotions on your work.

Most times when women are arrested for misdemeanor prostitution, they will be taken to the local police or sheriff's station and fingerprinted and booked. The officer who arrests you will probably tell you it won't take very long to go through the process of being booked, but, take it from those who have been there- it always takes many hours longer than they tell you it will. They want you to remain calm, so they will lie to you in order to keep you from getting more upset. Be prepared to be in custody overnight or even longer- and if you are released early, you can consider yourself lucky.

Ultimately, you will be given the opportunity to make a phone call to contact a bail bonds person or your lawyer. Be sure that you have someone you can call who can make these calls for you incase you can't remember their numbers or incase you are only given one chance to make a call. If you have a friend available to take a call from you in the middle of the night, so much the better. Give him or her all the information necessary to get you out such as your location, your booking number and the arrest charge to give the bail bonds person. If you are released on your own "recognizance," that means that you don't have to post bail to get out. You will simply have to sign the arrest 'ticket' and agree to appear at your arraignment on the date you are given.

Now, back to what it is like in jail. I can't speak for all jails- as I have only been to Los Angeles' Sybil Brand Institute. It is horribly overcrowded and an unpleasant place to be.

If you are taken to jail after you have been booked at the police or sheriff's station, you will have to go through the process all over again, unless the jail holding facility is in the same place as you were taken to begin with. If it is in a separate location as it is in LA, you will be told to remove your shoes and stockings or socks and checked for drugs. If you have any jewelry, earrings, rings, etc. they will take them from you at this time. You will be given a receipt for all your things, but be sure they have listed everything they take from you. If it isn't listed on the receipt when they give it to you, you will probably never be able to prove they took it, and you can be sure that they will have some nice new jewelry to wear to the next cop party. Sad, but all too true!

Next, you will be placed in a holding tank until it is your turn to be given a shower and checked for lice. In the holding tank, you have no privacy, so if at all possible, use the bathroom at the police station before you are taken to jail. There is usually no toilet paper in the holding tank, and the toilet is usually always overflowing. If you are on your period, you will not be able to find tampons, only pads, if you are lucky. Sometimes the women's jails are out of the basic necessities of life. Remind yourself that this is not a permanent situation, and no matter how humiliating it will be, it will be over eventually.

When the other inmates who are called trustees bring coffee, fruit and sandwiches, do not turn them down even if you aren't hungry. The other women in the tank will get angry with you, and you don't want to make any enemies here. Take the food and when the guards aren't looking you can give it away.

When it is your turn to be given a shower, it is better to know what to expect. If you are at all shy, this will be a very unpleasant experience. You have to shower and wash your hair in front of the female officers, and when you get out of the shower, you will have your head checked for lice and a body cavity search. . . meaning you have to bend over and spread your legs. . . and no, you won't get paid for this one! You will then be given a jail gown and your bedroll. Even if you think that you will be out of jail soon, you will still be given all this as they don't know when you will be released so they only go through the process once. If you are released quickly, you simply give them the property back when you leave.

After you have been showered and checked for lice, you will most likely be fingerprinted even if they did it at the police station. After that, they will have you escorted to the dorm where you will be housed until you have been released. There are usually pay phones there, so you can continue to try to contact someone to bail you out. Each jail facility has a different time that lights go out and the telephones are turned off, but regardless, you can still be bailed out any time at all. When it is your turn, the officer will call your name over the loudspeaker even if it is four o'clock in the morning (did you expect to get some sleep in here???) If you attempt to ask an officer any questions in the meantime, they usually don't answer you, so don't get frustrated. Usually another inmate will have whatever answer you need, so be friendly and ask them. Believe me, if you are in jail on a prostitution charge, but don't think you should have been arrested, this is not the place to tell anyone that the cops wrongly arrested you. You will not find any sympathy at all here! Many of the women in county jails have been arrested for prostitution at one time or another, and have no patience for women who think they are too good to be there. As I said earlier, this is not a place to make enemies. You will need to have a friend to tell you what's going on in there if nothing else- so, be cool and go along with the program. No, you don't have to become anyone's love slave here- so don't think that being friendly is going to get you there.

Remember that the county jails are filled with more and more gang members- women gang members are numerous- so don't say things that will offend one group or another. The best behavior is to keep your mouth shut, be friendly but reserved.

It is difficult to know ahead of time what your bail will be- because it varies from case to case. Sometimes it is a low bail and sometimes high- it just depends on the officers who are arresting you or in what city you were arrested. If you have prior arrests or convictions, your bail will probably be higher.

Once you have posted bail, you will be given back your property and or money that you gave to the booking officer. Check to be sure that all the property and money is there, because once you have left the building, it is too late to claim something is

Three X
05-06-04, 11:52
* IF I DON'T TALK ABOUT SEX, BUT HE DOES, I WON'T GET INTO TROUBLE. Wrong. The new laws in California allow the police officer to lure you with talk of sex for money or other consideration and then arrest you if you agree to do it. You don't have to say anything about sex or money to get arrested. It can be said that you "agree" to do something when you merely nod your head or even smile at him when he suggests that you perform an act of sex for money.

* IF HE ASKS ABOUT A CERTAIN SEX ACT & I SAY NO, CAN I STILL GET ARRESTED? Yes. As ridiculous as it seems, if the undercover cop asks you about a specific sex act (such as "greek") and you say "no" to that specific act, you can still be arrested because it implies that you are willing to do other acts of sex. If someone begins to ask too many specific questions, you should immediately tell him that sex for money is illegal, and he should stop trying to get you to break the law. Whenever a man needs to keep talking about what he will get for his money, it should make you think something is wrong. (more info next paragraph)

* AS LONG AS I SAY "NO" WHEN HE ASKS ME ABOUT SEX AND MONEY, I WON'T GET ARRESTED, RIGHT? You would think so, but the fact is, they can manipulate the conversation to the point that they say you are agreeing to an act of sex even if you say "no" to a specific question. Here's how it can happen. There was a woman who was arrested for prostitution about two years ago, even though she had told the undercover cop "no" when he asked her if she did "Greek" (a slang term for anal sex). The reasoning he used was as follows. . . when he arrived at her home, she was vague about what services he would receive for his money. She told him that he would have a good time. When he continued to press her for more specific information, she continued to be evasive. He then asked her if she did "Greek," to which she replied "no." She was then arrested, because it was implied that she would do other sexual things to him even if she would not do one specific thing. A good lawyer should get the case dismissed, but you can still be arrested and have to spend money to defend yourself, so insist that you do not do anything sexual, especially if he keeps asking. A real client knows what he will receive and doesn't need to play word games with you.

* THE POLICE NEED A SEARCH WARRANT TO COME INTO MY HOME AND ARREST ME IN THE FIRST PLACE, RIGHT? No, if they suspect you of breaking the law, they can set you up through a sting operation, and, if you violate the law, they can then search your place and take you into custody. In the past, the police have taken computers,video equipment, cameras and other electronic equipment, as well as bondage equipment as 'evidence.' If they take something with them for whatever reason, they are supposed to give you a property receipt listing whatever property they confiscate, but they frequently do not, which means that you can kiss whatever they took goodbye. Even if they do give you a property receipt, there is no guarantee that your property will be returned. Often they will tell you it is needed for the case against you, even if it is clear that it has no bearing on your case, and the police will continue to keep it indefinitely, or until it is "lost" in the property room. Either way, the odds are against your ever seeing it again, nevertheless, be sure to make a record of what they take and give it to your lawyer. If you have a homeowners insurance policy, you might be able to make a claim and get reimbursed for your losses.

* A POLICE OFFICER HAS TO TELL ME HE IS A COP IF I ASK HIM, RIGHT? NO, NO, NO! Cops have complete immunity to lie to you - because if that is all we had to do to protect ourselves, cops would never make any arrests! Furthermore, in some states he can legally get undressed and actually have sex with you and still arrest you! In other states where it is not legal for him to have sex with you first, but he does anyway, when he gets on the witness stand, he will lie and the judge and jury will believe him, not you! It isn't fair, but that's the way things are. So, don't think you are safe from arrest just because he has sex with you. If he does get undressed or has sex with you, be sure to write down the physical description of his private parts - the size of his penis, if his body is really hairy or smooth, or if he has any scars or tattoos, and give a copy of your notes to your attorney and hide the original somewhere safe.

*THE POLICE CAN'T LEGALLY TAPE RECORD OUR CONVERSATIONS AND USE THEM IN COURT, CAN THEY? Ask Heidi Fleiss about that! Yes, they can, and often will tape record and video tape you when they call you or when you are with them at your house or in their hotel room and then use the tapes against you in court. The only one who doesn't get to use tape recordings of conversations in court, is you. Of course, if you do make an audio or video tape recording of the event which directly conflicts with the police version of the situation, you should notify your lawyer that such a tape exists, and then make copies of it. Do not give your only copy to anyone, even a lawyer, as such copies have been known to conveniently disappear. There are unscrupulous lawyers who are willing to tamper with the evidence and help the police, so that the police will give them consideration on a "more important case." Also, there are lawyers who use drugs themselves, and the cops know about it, so they can easily "persuade" the lawyer to assist them against you. To them, you are just a '*****,' and whatever happens to you is not really important to them. (for more information, see Book One on police entrapment and wiretapping)

* AFTER I HAVE BEEN ARRESTED- CAN THE POLICE COME INTO MY HOME WHEN I AM JUST WITH FRIENDS? No - not until you are on probation. They need probable cause to enter your home, and just being with friends is not against the law. They can't just come in and harass you. If they do, you can sue them.

*If you accept probation as your sentence - you have lost all your rights for the time being - which means that the police don't need an excuse to harass you and accuse you of violating your probation. If you even jay-walk, that constitutes a violation of your probation and you can go to jail for the entire length of your probation sentence. Let's say the maximum time for the first offense for prostitution is 45 days in jail, but if you accept probation and you get 3 years probation, then if you violate your probation - you can go to jail for three years, not 45 days. When you are on probation, the police can enter your home without a search warrant and stop you in a car for no reason. If you are visiting a friend's house, the police can enter your friend's house without a search warrant too, so if they have drugs or other illegal possessions, you can be charged with violating your probation just for being there.

So, if you decide to plead guilty and not take a jury trial, you will not get the opportunity again to tell anyone your side of the story. If you are charged with a violation of your probation, you don't get a trial - you just go to jail.


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"SO, WHAT IS 'PROSTITUTION' ANYWAY?" In California, it is a misdemeanor, defined as it is 'any lewd act for money or other consideration.' "Lewd'' is defined as the touching of male genitalia and buttocks and female genitalia, breasts and buttocks for the purpose of sexual gratification or arousal . That means that just touching your breasts, buttocks or genitals and he gets aroused- and he is giving you money or other consideration, you have technically broken the law. The law doesn't say that you have to touch his body or he has to touch yours in order for it to be illegal.

As for what "other consideration" is... the courts in California said that if someone "mows your lawn" that can be "other consideration."

A few years ago, California passed a law that amended the penal code to allow a police officer to legally entrap a person suspected of prostitution. We call the new law a 'use a smile, go to prison' law, because the law says, "A person agrees to engage in an act of prostitution when, with specific intent to so engage, he or she manifests an acceptance of an offer or solicitation to so engage, regardless of whether the offer or solicitation was made by a person who also possessed the specific intent to engage in prostitution." In other words, no longer are words are necessary to commit this verbal crime.....facial expressions (smiling, winking) or body gestures will do! So, if the other person says "will you do this or that (that's sexual) to me" and offers you money or other consideration, you don't have to say anything at all to get arrested. And if that wasn't bad enough, in 1996, another new law, passed by a liberal democrat (Richard Katz), allows the police to arrest you for merely possessing the intent to commit prostitution!*(see full description of this law in BAD LAWS - CALIFORNIA.)

Being arrested on a charge of prostitution carries a mandatory sentence on the first offense.


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*"WHAT IS 'PANDERING'?" Pandering, a felony, is defined as merely 'encouraging a person.....by schemes, devices and promises.....to commit an act of prostitution.' It has a mandatory prison term of three, four or six years on the first offense, with no prior convictions.

No distinction is made between coercive, juvenile prostitution and non-coercive adult prostitution. Pandering can be the act of two prostitutes who work together, who simply exchange clients, or arrange a 'double date' with a client. Giving out the phone number of one prostitute to a potential client (or undercover vice officer) is sufficient to be charged with pandering.

So, if you help your friend find clients, even if she asks you to, and even if you don't take a cut, you are committing a felony and must go to prison for three to six years if you are convicted of the charge. If you take any money from her for arranging the date, that is another crime- also a felony, called "pimping."


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"WHAT IS PIMPING'?" Living off the earnings of a prostitute, whether in full or in part. This law also carries a mandatory prison term of three to six years on the first offense. It is common practice for women who work together to take a percentage of the money for the date they arrange for their friend. The police know this and use the law against us as a way to make us cooperate with them. When we don't want to cooperate with them, the law is often applied to, or is threatened to be applied to, a prostitute's landlord, in attempts to get the landlord to evict the prostitute from his/her apartment. In some cases, it is also used against a prostitute's mother or father, brothers and sisters, when it can be proved that the prostitute contributes any money to them.

Legally, a 'pimp' need not be a man with a string of girls, who drives a 'pimpmobile' and wears gaudy, flashy clothing, the man that the public sees as forcing young women onto drugs and into a life of prostitution. A pimp can be the bank, the grocery store; anyone who takes money from a prostitute ... from her earnings as a prostitute, is legally 'guilty' of pimping.

This law was originally intended to protect the prostitute, because often the prostitute was perceived as a victim of someone who would take all of her money and leave her destitute. As with most 'protectionist' legislation, it is more often used against the 'victim' than against those who would victimize her.

Three X
05-06-04, 11:55
NOTE : IF YOU LIVE AND WORK IN A STATE OTHER THAN CALIFORNIA, THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE MAY BE DIFFERENT. USE THIS INFORMATION AS A REFERENCE GUIDE ONLY- CHECK OUT THE LAWS THROUGH A LAW LIBRARY OR WITH A CRIMINAL LAWYER WHERE YOU LIVE.

SENTENCES FOR PANDERING, PIMPING AND PROSTITUTION ALSO VARY STATE TO STATE. YOU CAN PURCHASE A COPY OF YOUR STATE'S PENAL CODE FROM ANY LEGAL BOOKSTORE. READ FOR ALL REFERENCES TO THE SEX WORK YOU ENGAGE IN AND MEMORIZE THE LAWS! YOUR BEST DEFENSE IS KNOWLEDGE! DON'T LET THEM GET YOU UNAWARE!

****Warning - the information in this page is the opinion of the author and is not intended to take the place of legal advice - and if you are arrested, you should seek the services of a qualified attorney in your state.****





I know what you're thinking. You only do massage therapy, domination, act in porn movies, work for a licensed escort service or do nude dancing. How could they arrest you for prostitution? Isn't a prostitute that poor ignorant drug addict who stands on the streets and sells her body for a few bucks to anyone who comes along? What you were doing was not illegal, was it? And besides, the cop who arrested you. . . he entrapped you, and that's illegal, isn't it?

If you live in California, entrapment for prostitution is legal (even though it should be unconstitutional, it has not been ruled against because no one has been able to get a case heard in a high court of appeals), thanks to liberal democrats who desire to protect us poor stupid women from being exploited. And, in California, prostitution is so vaguely defined that it probably includes behavior that you thought was acceptable and legal. You probably thought that if you didn't have sexual intercourse or give a "blow job" you were not committing prostitution. Or, you thought that if you were doing these things in front of a camera, you were protected - just exercising your first amendment rights. And if you thought that you weren't breaking the law because you didn't take money for the sex act, but you took other consideration instead, you are wrong.

Unfortunately, if you get arrested, and if you plead guilty or are convicted, you may end up with a prostitution record which will brand you as a prostitute forever. Such a record will prevent you from being able to do certain things, so it is important not to plead guilty or get a conviction if at all possible. Not to mention a conviction for prostitution carries a mandatory jail sentence on the first offense, and sometimes up to a year on the second offense.

* Know what your rights are and know the law!!!!! The police expect you to be ignorant of your rights and of the law - so they often get away with doing things to you that are illegal. By knowing what the law is and what your rights are, you can protect yourself from police abuse.

* Know a good attorney and a bail bonds person who will be there for you if you get arrested - not every bail bonds company will bail out women or men who have been arrested on prostitution charges. They will bail out men who have been accused of beating their wives, or who have committed armed robbery, but not men or women who have been charged with being exploited for money!

* Fight the law - do not plead guilty - take your case to trial - make them work to put you in jail. The law is wrong and should be fought. If we all fight our cases, instead of giving in, the courts would be more overcrowded than ever, and the police would have to stop arresting us.

* Giving the names of your friends or your clients to the police will not help you get a lesser sentence. The police will tell you that if you cooperate with them, they can help you with the judge- but the reality is that they can't do anything at all, so if you turn in your friends or your clients, you do so for nothing, and you have lost your friend.

* After your first arrest, the likelihood of your getting arrested again within the next few weeks or months (until your case has been resolved) increases 90 percent more than before you were arrested the first time. The reason for this is simply because the police want to keep you from pleading not guilty in court. If you have never been arrested before, and go before a judge, you may be able to convince him or her that your arrest was a mistake- but, if you get arrested again right away, before your case has been settled, you will have a more difficult time convincing a judge or city attorney that you really are not a prostitute and should not get the mandatory jail sentence.

* Always exercise extreme caution when speaking to anyone, including those you know well. If they suddenly begin asking questions that involve money or sex - questions that they already know the answers to - bells should go off in your head. Tell him, "Why whatever do you mean?" Don't give the cops ammunition to use against you. Always talk to your clients (on the phone and in person) as though your conversation was being tape recorded and will be played in front of a jury. Don't say anything that will incriminate you.


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COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS:

* IF NO MONEY CHANGES HANDS, I HAVE NOT BROKEN THE LAW. The law only requires that you "manifest an acceptance of the offer" and does not say that you take the money. All you have to do to get arrested is to agree (by smiling or nodding your head) to touch his buttocks or genitals (through massage or dominance) or to let him touch yours, and agree to take a fee for it - in cash, or other consideration.* The crime of prostitution is all a word game- based on getting a 'solicitation' rather than an actual act out of a suspect. Anything further, such as getting you to get undressed or taking the money they offer, is just 'icing' on their legal case against you.

* I ONLY DANCE NUDE AND MASTURBATE MYSELF. IS THAT PROSTITUTION? The law says prostitution is "a lewd act for money or other consideration," which is "the touching of breast, buttocks or genitals for the purpose of sexual gratification or arousal." (later on we will explain this further.) Notice that it doesn't say who touches whose breast, buttocks or genitals in order for it to be lewd conduct. The vagueness of the law allows the act of masturbation to be included in the definition of prostitution if the other person (who is paying) becomes aroused or achieves sexual gratification while watching you and that is what they are paying for. So, whether you masturbate yourself, or, if you have a girl-girl show where you touch the breasts, buttocks or genitals of a third party, if the individual who is paying you gets aroused, etc. you have broken the law.

* IF I DON'T SEE ANY NEW PEOPLE, I AM OKAY. We know from many cases that the police have followed clients after they leave the house of the sex worker they see, and threaten to tell his boss or his family if he doesn't cooperate with them and help the police arrest you. So, even if the person that you see is an old friend, be careful if he starts to ask you questions about money or sex that you know he already knows. Also, if he tells you that he has a friend that would like to see you, and he has never done that before, approach the situation with extreme caution. It may be fine- but it also may be a set up. As the saying goes- it is better to be safe than sorry!

James D 2004
05-06-04, 13:15
Three X

Without reading too much into it, you posts sound like advice mostly to providers. I don't think they read this board too much, at least they don't post.

I would think there are info on the net better organized for these kind of static information. If not, you can put these on geocity or the like. Easier to read.

Are you a lawyer? Just as LE will be very convincing if they are trying to be nice to you, the same goes for the advice, or any advice. I would trust more if the source is ACLU etc or lawyers. For example, many providers move once every few months rather than anything else, unless they found a neighborhood very accomodating.

I would recommend traffic school. It's easy to get in California, just drive over the limit before LE. They are everywhere when the city is poor. You have to face an LE for hours while he teaches how LE works and how to fight it. Though traffic ticket is trivial but you get the universal essence how LE works. Since most people if they once go to traffic school, they seems to go every 2 years, it's a good source of philosophy about LE. See my particular example in Hollywood, Cali.

T&H

Civ2000
05-06-04, 17:42
Three X, You are making way too big a deal out of all this. Bail bondsmen and trial lawyers for O & A and solicitation charges? The average SW who is arrested spends less than 12 hours in jail and often gets out on a $75.00 bond. I know hookers who have been arrested dozens of times and rarely spend more than a day in jail.

Also, the system just does not have room to incarcerate every hooker or petty drug addict who violates probation. Ususally it takes several violations to even get a month in jail.

High profile prostitution cases? You're lucky if you see more than two or three a year in the whole country.

Don't let them get you unaware? The average SW looks at incarceration as a vacation. A chance to gain back some weight, meet with their friends, and get healthy.

Now you might be talking high priced call girls or something here. They are looking at a slap on the wrist as well.

Just who are you giving this advice to anyway? This is a board for mongers, not sex workers, even though a few might be reading our posts.

Also, I checked the law books: there is no mandatory minimum for pandering and pimping. Pandering will usually get you about a month or so for your first conviction, but you will have a felony on your record. Pimping will probably get you some peniteniary time but not necessarily.

A year sentence on your second conviction for hooking: BS

Obviously you've read some books but have no first hand or practical knowledge of the penal system. What bothers cops the most is the people they arrest day in and day out, hookers who always have crack on them when they get busted, rarely get more than a few days. I remember a SW that lived with me once who got busted by an officer for VUCSA (crack cocaine), shoplifting, and and an FTA for prostitution who he took to jail and he couldn't believe it when he saw us walking down the street after she'd been PR'd and his shift wasn't even over yet.

And it is illegal to give a fictious name. Most actors have had their names legally changed, and if they hadn't they would be required to give the police their real name if arrested.

* I ONLY DANCE NUDE AND MASTURBATE MYSELF. IS THAT PROSTITUTION? Wrong again 3x. Otherwise the live peep shows would be shut down.

"Giving the names of your friends or your clients to the police will not help you get a lesser sentence." Also, totally incorrect. Just make sure your lawyer negotiates it.

"A pimp can be the bank, the grocery store; anyone who takes money from a prostitute ... from her earnings as a prostitute, is legally 'guilty' of pimping." Again, complete and total BS! It may be true like the law that says it's illegal to shoot a camel in Boston after dark, but how many bankers have gone to jail for opening a checking account for a hooker. None.

"incase you are only given one chance to make a call." In pre and post book you can make as many calls as you want, you just have to be quick because there are other's waiting for the phone.

Civ2000

Three X
05-15-04, 20:01
I didn't write this it was on another board! The writer was a massage girl years ago and now she works for a prostitution legalisation group!

Domino
06-09-04, 06:52
The BBC have an article on proposals to have red light districts.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3788013.stm

Personally, I think the right place to have legal hookers is the zoo, along with the the monkeys, elephants and lizards. It would be fun feeding them and it would bring a new clientele to the zoos.

Domino,

As I lost my virginity under a lion waggon, I always get a hard on around animals. It would be great ass pounding a beefy hooker in a cage with lions on one side and gorillas on the other.

Mangus Man
06-13-04, 22:24
Here's a follow up from the newspaper about the Florida state Supreme Court finally getting involved in the extortion scam of anyone arrested in prostitution stings having to pay an extra $1000 bribe to the police to get their car out of impound.

The city attorney for Hollywood Florida who gets his salary paid by you the taxpayers calls the court caving in "good news" because "the game is still on!"

Everyone already knows that since the state has a law that makes anyone arrested for drug felony cases forfeit their property, for many many years local law enforcement departments in West Palm Beach, Hollywood, Dania, Hallandale, and Miami decided to use their women employees to proposition drivers, so they can arrest them, and impound their cars for a tidy $1000 fee.

Add it up, 25 cars a sting, 5 stings a week, $30 million taxpayer dollars. Is anyone surprised that now they pull you over and fine you $100 for not wearing your seatbelt? But riding a motorcycle without a helmet is fine.

Its no accident that the extra income the stings generate, goes into accounts they control and spend as they see fit, not the taxpaying public. They decide who gets this money in bonuses and raises. Your taxes pay their salaries to protect you the public from crime. They have the guns, they have the power. No legal decision made by any powerless court in this country will stop the police.

So really who are the criminals? In a police state like the USA, courts can never
prevent the police from taking anything they want to. Balance of power?
3 equal branches of government? Its a nice concept, maybe someday, somehwere else, but not here.

Need proof ? A West Palm Beach 4th District Court judge finally told the police to stop. Well, the courts don't have the guns, so guess what?

Let's just say, have your bribe money ready, or you'll be taking a bus to work.

Civ2000
06-13-04, 23:10
Mangus, Good report but I am inclined to believe your numbers are a bit askew. Five stings a week impounding 25 cars per sting? If they did a sting five days a week no one would be picking up girls because a sting would lose its effectiveness being run on a daily basis. Even the most aggressive police departments don't run stings more than once or twice a month on average and most no more than five or six times a year. Also they would soon run out of non-recognizable female officers to work the sting.

Secondly, usually the stings go for 2 to 3 hours until they net anywhere from 5 to 15 johns, so the twenty-five vehicle number is rather high also.

Lastly, stings usually employ about 15 officers who are working overtime because they are taken away from their normal duties. Add in the time for paperwork, the cost of prosecuting the johns, jail time etc and you will find even at a cost of a grand per car they barely break even financially on sting operations. The reason they seize cars is because it is extremely effective in reducing prostitution activity in an area and because the vast majority of non-mongering citizens think its a great idea.

On that note if you are picking up SW's in these areas in an expensive car you are a fool. Find a 1976 Ford Pinto station wagon or equilivent and monger in that. They probably won't seize it because it would cost more to get rid of than they would make and if they do you're only out a couple of hundred bucks.

Most stings take place because businesses and residents of the affected area literally beg the cops to crack down.

All this IMHO of course.

Don't think I am defending the cops. I am not. I absolutely hate the police and think what they are doing is criminal, but facts are facts.

Civ2000

James D 2004
06-13-04, 23:38
Can someone explain to me how you can get some sort of ticket by walking in some wrong way in California?